School of Hard NOCs - Night 6 ends on Mar. 15 at 9:00 PM HST

[Prims]

I know I'm giving Shinori shit but after thinking about it I'm pretty sure he's town.

That said I can't say I'd feel bad about mislynching him.

[Scarlet]

and he misrepped in it a few times.

You really shouldn't be talking.

First off, in case you've forgotten: I haven't played in quite a while. As in, more than a year. As such, I'm not updated on all the current meta 'n stuff. That includes the players. So I avoid using meta as a reason for voting or not voting someone because it's not reliable for me.

He's voting me part of the reason being: "His reads are the opposite of mine." Oh okay I didn't know this was a scum thing.

No, that in itself is not a scumtell.

However, from my PoV, I obviously know I'm town, and as such that my reads are genuine, without trying to mislead anyone.

Now, of course I know that I'm most likely not correct about all of my reads, but for your reads to end up the complete opposite of mine for the most part seems strange given the assumption that you're working with the same info I do.

Unless, y' know, you're not.

I find it weird though that multiple times he actually said I made statements that he agreed with so I mean my reads can't be a POLAR OPPOSITE like he said because he obviously agreed with some of the stuff I said, you know unless he was bsing.

Keyword here is "almost".

We did seem to agree on a few things; for instance, the JB lynch, and I also agreed with some of your arguments regarding why certain votes of other people were bad.

What I primarily take issue with is your own vote pattern (like I mentioned in my #398), as well as your reactions when it comes to yourself.

You're complaining that I'm not contributing? The way it's worded means you think that I've been faking contribution and all that jazz. Dude you should check my past games; if I don't care to post I won't post; be it town or scum and if I actually want to post and talk I will; be it town or scum. My play generally varies on my mood/emotional level. I don't generally ever force myself to post.

Meta. See my explanation above.

Hesitant to vote me cause his other major scumread is voting me? >_> Why? This should at least give info about his biggest scum read at the minimum.

And that's exactly why I ended up voting you anyway.

GUYS APPARENTLY MY FFM VOTE WASNT FOR "NOT PAPER". Like I stated I was voting FFM honestly because I didn't want to lynch Paper and at that point in time he was the second largest wagon. I mean maybe I had a town read of sorts on Paper but I guess that logic doesn't work with you now does it Scarlet? ;/ So even though my FFM vote was solely because I didn't want to lynch one of my town reads my vote on FFM was for 'no reason'. Good to know.

1. You're twisting my words.

2. You expressed your discontent with the Paperblade wagon multiple times, but not even once explained why you felt he was town (if you did and I missed it, a quote of your reasoning would be appreciated). You also never explained why you voted FFM and not, say, JB right away. Thus, a weak vote switch to an easy wagon.

[charlie_]

so is the whole day's activity happening at deadline or what

[BBM]

@Prims- yeah the fact that you said you were subbing out and a lot of the higher profile players had votes on them + I claimed PGO didn't escape my notice. However, Eclipse wouldn't give a Miller fake unless there was a Cop, and if Shinori is legit and can actually choose what role he backs up, that's even stronger. And yeah, there are other methods of countering cops, such as Godfathers and Tailors (and PGO I guess but meh), but I feel like Miller would be there anyways?

I was thinking FFM didn't get killed because the mafia wanted to use their Jan and then didn't get hooked because they didn't have a Hooker. I feel that if he was scum he would have just claimed to be hooked regardless because it's easy.

I was also thinking SB was town because when he white knights as scum (C9++ for example) he doesn't really go to as many lengths to defend the wagonee. But that was a while ago so I should probably get new meta or something. sigh. Also he's generally somewhat more abrasive as town than as scum I think and he seems to be pissing a lot of people off?

##Vote: RD I guess? Worse than Raymond. Nothing is super terrible but overall a lot of the time it feels like he's just saying what someone is doing and not really saying why that's indicative of alignment. And then he uses language like "I can't think why you would do this as town" when talking to SB but never actually votes for him which feels kind of off. Also he keeps talking about how he's going to reread Randa for associative reads except if he really wanted to reread someone, JB would be much better...? It feels like he's putting time looking into the shallower areas rather than the deeper areas.

order of townliness among the twelve remaining slots:

BBM

me

BigBangMeteor

BigPlaysMeteor

myself

BabyBowserMonster

BigBadMarshmallow

Thomas Raith

VP Viper

I

BamBamMan

BigBadMafia

good list imo

[Radiant Dragon]

- RD I didn't take issue with until SB started attacking him; I feel that RD's reaction was a bit too aggressive given that he wasn't exactly a lynch target at that point. Everything else he posted seemed pretty okay, though. Null.

And this is anything new? Hell, you only have to look as far as my character's role in SFMM to see that this is just how I play.

I had a question though: RD, in #148 you said some posts from Scarlet gave you a good impression. Which were those posts?

His reads early on were pretty similar to mine and he seems to be genuinely, consistently contributing, asking good questions and making good points. It isn't one or two specific posts that stand out to me. Rather, the way his posts come together is what gives me my good impression. Will be looking at his interaction with Shinori to see what direction my reads take.

Speaking of Shinori, I don't like how he claimed so early. Hell, half the game seems to think I'm scum and I still haven't claimed yet. He claimed a very useful, powerful and nigh-impossible to verify role with basically no pressure on him ...for what reason? I can't think of a reason why Town would want to make a target of themselves so early, but it makes a significant amount of sense for scum as an attempt to make people hesitant to lynch him. Saying he won't be telling when (or if!) he backs up a role doesn't make it any better.

Looking through his ISO, his first vote is jumping on the SB wagon, mimicing Prims' reasoning that SB was 'coasting'... in his one serious post. Then makes the argument that he was 'posting stuff' and 'obviously here, reading and doing things' as justification for his vote... Even though SB had only made one serious post before Shinori voted him.

He then tries to use the reasoning that SB never followed up with his question in #41 (asking why Bearclaw's questions were preventing the game from advancing). However, since multiple other players had already addressed this, why would he need to bring it up again if he didn't have anything else to add? His later argument in #200 seems to be him trying to say that 'his posts were awful and he did nothing', despite the fact that said 'awful' posts were made during RVS.

He also mentions that he believes one of JB and I are scum, but then makes no mention or follow up on this after JB flips Town (he also compares my play to a game I wasn't even in, but whatever). You'd think he'd at least say something to the effect of "RD looks worse after the JB flip" or whatever.

Raymond's rebuttal against Shinori's attack against him makes sense. As I said above, will be watching to see if either look better/worse.

##Vote: Shinori.

SB is doing this weird thing where he does little things that I'd do if i were scum, but he's not doing them well. Such as smudging people (read: dropping subtle unneccessary little jabs at people in otherwise unrelated content as a way of making them look worse without actually commiting to anything.) Only he's not being subtle about it.

He's also misrepresenting people to make them look worse. Only I'd usually only try that on people who have been shown to be poor at articulating or debating points, as they're less likely to be able to rebuff it. Only he's doing it to RD and myself, both of whom are capable of defending themselves against it.

To be fair, SB has only played one game with me, in which I basically crashed and burned my way into the noose Day 1. So in his eyes I'm probably a pretty easy lynch target. Not sure about his attacks on you, though.

Would still support an SB lynch. I really want to vote for both of them right now, but I'm more interested in Shinori at present.

[Radiant Dragon]

Also he keeps talking about how he's going to reread Randa for associative reads except if he really wanted to reread someone, JB would be much better...? It feels like he's putting time looking into the shallower areas rather than the deeper areas.

Yeah, I realized that Randa probably wasn't the best place to look for reads, which is why I dropped that course. I thought about looking into JB, but I haven't had the time.

I also keep meaning to look into people that I don't have strong reads on, like Haze, Kaoz and yourself, but I just don't have that kind of time. The above post and ISO took me almost an hour because I keep getting distracted.

I probably shouldn't have signed up for this game, but I'm doing what I can.

[charlie_]

[spoiler=hi haze]

This is a joke, right? I mean are you fucking serious right now SB?

I encourage anyone to go and read my posts on the Paperblade wagon just to see how full of shit SB is right now. I had posts where I went over every reason that had been given for votes on him and responded to them.

Your reasons for disliking the Paperblade wagon were
-Some used meta
-Disagreeing he lacked meaningful content - How was this the case?
-His vote on me wasn't scummy (no reason behind it)
-Saying scum!Paper wouldn't want to switch his vote to me (no reason behind it)

So yeah, I'd say that your reasons were pretty weak for disagreeing with the wagon.

It's not even me being defensive so much as me getting fed up with having to reply to his shit logic and blatant lies like above. I get grumpy when I have to seriously acknowledge something I cannot take seriously.

Allow me to articulate.

SB is doing this weird thing where he does little things that I'd do if i were scum, but he's not doing them well. Such as smudging people (read: dropping subtle unneccessary little jabs at people in otherwise unrelated content as a way of making them look worse without actually commiting to anything.) Only he's not being subtle about it.

Attacking people for doing scummy things isn't scummy. It's how we catch the mafia. I don't really follow the logic here at all. If I was like

scum!Haze, I would be more subtle with my attacks on people? This either means that I'm town, or that I'm not you. Take your pick.

He's also misrepresenting people to make them look worse. Only I'd usually only try that on people who have been shown to be poor at articulating or debating points, as they're less likely to be able to rebuff it. Only he's doing it to RD and myself, both of whom are capable of defending themselves against it.

How am I misinterpretting what people have been saying? Cite this stuff if you're going to accuse me of it. I also don't understand why doing it to someone who CAN defend themselves is worse than doing it to someone who can't?

I honestly cannot tell whether he's a bad scum player or whether he's a townie that's tunneling so hard that he's looking straight past posts and content that weaken his argument and the smudging and misrepresenting is a result of this.

Not sure I get what you're saying here exactly, but I'm not tunneling. I've got opinions on other players out there. What would make me bad!town anyway over bad!scum?

Additionally to get into rolespeccing, while a Tracker can easily be both town and mafia, I'm not entirely convinced of the use of a scum Follower. What advantage is there to the mafia finding out if someone's action succeeded? I think it's fairly safe to assume (it's a Clipsey game afterall,) that everyone has an active ability at this point, yes even Mr. PGO, so it's not as though the mafia could use that as a way to determine who is a potentially juicy target.

I feel the only use of that following mechanic is to catch someone in a lie. Scum don't have any use for that, and unless FFM and Eury are scumbuddies, I'm willing to say FFM is about as close to clear as he can be on day 2 given that his role is confirmed.

Honestly I think Frosty is a Tracker/Journalist, not a Tracker/Follower since Follower is completely different, so Journalist could be a legit scum role. Don't care for a Frosty wagon either way though.

For now though, not opposed to lynching SB obviously, but I'd like a second opinion.

You spend all that time attacking me and then don't even vote for me? What do you think of the rest of the game? The only other thing I know about your reads is that you think Frosty is town.

Other stuff:

RD, why did you not give any of Shinori's posts any thought as the game went by? Feels kind of like you just saw one post you thought was really bad and threw in other reasons to make it look like a better vote. The last part about JB/RD interactions is pretty much a trap, if he switched to you right after you could peg him for lining up lynches, but if he didn't then you call him out for not being consistent with his reads. What would you expect from Town!Shinori in that situation?

I don't really agree that Kaoz is scum. I don't think he would have blatantly rolefished Frosty if he was scum and the reason he provided for doing it were legit reasoning that I don't think scum would have thought of - I think if Kaoz would have tried to stay away from something that's generally considered to be a kind of obvious scumtell.

Shinori's reasoning for disliking Raymond is actually okay now that he's explained it, but I don't see why scum!Raymond would intentionally leave in all of the waffling he did on Shinori and then vote for him anyway.

Specing on hooks/kills is silly imo, for all we know there's a Janitor SK and the mafia tried to kill Frosty instead of hooking him and got blocked by the doctor.

[Radiant Dragon]

How am I misinterpretting what people have been saying? Cite this stuff if you're going to accuse me of it.

RD, why did you not give any of Shinori's posts any thought as the game went by? Feels kind of like you just saw one post you thought was really bad and threw in other reasons to make it look like a better vote. The last part about JB/RD interactions is pretty much a trap, if he switched to you right after you could peg him for lining up lynches, but if he didn't then you call him out for not being consistent with his reads. What would you expect from Town!Shinori in that situation?

@Bolded: Have you even been reading my posts? I'll give you this, this and this. I have made multiple posts in this game rebuffing your attacks against me and you've failed to acknowledge any of them. At least make an effort to tell everyone I'm full of it or something instead of feigning ignorance.

##Unvote, ##Vote: SB. I'm still suspicious of Shinori, but I feel you're more likely to be scum. I'd vote both of you if I could.

Regarding Shinori: On Day 1 I had already mentioned why I disliked your wagon so I didn't feel the need to mention Shinori specifically considering events had already moved on by the time I was able to post again, and Shinori wasn't on the chopping block that day. I actually mentioned in one of my Day 1 posts that I was going to look closer at Shinori when I had time (and Haze, but I haven't gotten to that yet).

As for the JB/RD interactions, I would have at least expected some sort of acknowledgement of his previous stance, even if it was simply to change said stance. Although thinking about it further, I suppose scum!Shinori might have pushed that train of thought further instead of attacking Raymond. Doesn't make me feel much better about him, though.

[charlie_]

That was addressed to Haze, but okay.

The first point is sort of true but at the same time if you thought my wagon was weird, surely you had time to at least quickly add something to say about it rather than just going "oh man sb sure is a wagon". The second point actually WAS addressed here. In the third, I'm pretty sure Prims used the point about your Raymond read too but apparently it was fine when he did it? And explaining that you don't think you're good doesn't make it any better because you're basically saying that you can't be held accountable for your reads being wrong, which is false. And "basically" meant most but not all, you one read on a player who wasn't on the wagon (and that wasn't even a scumread of yours iirc) and expanded a little on one, which doesn't really refute my point that much.

Saying "oh I'll look over Shinori" isn't a read on him, it's delaying giving one. Just because content is slightly outdated doesn't mean you should just ignore everything that happened, and stating a universal stance on a wagon without looking at the votes themselves doesn't really count as a read either. If there was a really bad 6 player wagon, is it likely that all 6 players on it are scum? There's always going to be differences between the votes there but you didn't try to differentiate them from each other at all earlier.

[Shinori]

You really shouldn't be talking.

First off, in case you've forgotten: I haven't played in quite a while. As in, more than a year. As such, I'm not updated on all the current meta 'n stuff. That includes the players. So I avoid using meta as a reason for voting or not voting someone because it's not reliable for me.

No, that in itself is not a scumtell.

However, from my PoV, I obviously know I'm town, and as such that my reads are genuine, without trying to mislead anyone.

Now, of course I know that I'm most likely not correct about all of my reads, but for your reads to end up the complete opposite of mine for the most part seems strange given the assumption that you're working with the same info I do.

Unless, y' know, you're not.

Keyword here is "almost".

We did seem to agree on a few things; for instance, the JB lynch, and I also agreed with some of your arguments regarding why certain votes of other people were bad.

What I primarily take issue with is your own vote pattern (like I mentioned in my #398), as well as your reactions when it comes to yourself.

Meta. See my explanation above.

And that's exactly why I ended up voting you anyway.

1. You're twisting my words.

2. You expressed your discontent with the Paperblade wagon multiple times, but not even once explained why you felt he was town (if you did and I missed it, a quote of your reasoning would be appreciated). You also never explained why you voted FFM and not, say, JB right away. Thus, a weak vote switch to an easy wagon.

If you aren't gonna involve meta then why do you keep saying things like "Shinori's been acting weird all game." How can you classify what I do as weird if you don't know what I normally do. So either you WERE using meta and it was just false or you weren't using meta and you were just trying to act like you knew my meta. Cause you can't know what is normal for me and what's not.

So then what happens when I flip town?

Cause you know FROM MY POINT OF VIEW HER DUR. I'm town and all of my reads are genuine. And my reads are the opposite of yours considering something people have called an OPINION. Here let me tell you what that is.

o·pin·ion

əˈpinyən/

noun

1. 1.

   a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

There now that that's out of the way. What exactly is wrong with my voting pattern? You said you didn't like it but stated nothing of the sort of what's wrong with it.

"Meta HER DUR." Then don't act like you are using meta in your posts. OR go and check part of one game. OR ask people if this behavior is normal for me? I mean I don't know there are multiple different explanations. Also I did say "Go look at a past game." I didn't say you were expected to know my meta. I know you haven't played.

Why should I have to explain why I feel someone is town? It's not required, the gist of the fact is I think he's town, or was town, and I didn't want to lynch him. OH WAIT A SECOND. I actually kind of did state some of my reasons for thinking he was town, right. And I didn't REALLY twist your words. I mean come on. Here look.

You don't just make up reasons to vote for someone if you don't think they're actually scummy. If you were voting simply for the lynch to go through, like can be argued that you did when you voted JB - fine. But the FFM vote prior to that doesn't follow that reasoning.

I mean you said here that I basically voted FFM for no reasoning. or that it didn't at least follow the reasoning the jb did. When I originally made the FFM vote phase was originally about to end fairly soon and I didn't want Paper to be lynched, therefor "Any lynch but a town read" would be the reason I voted FFM. Then when JB went up in votes I swapped to him cause he was more of a scum read than FFM was at all.

RD Is meh. I didn't really read his post I guess I should but my annoyance with Prims has me to unable to respond. Apparently the Elitist prick that spends most of his posts this game trolling feels like he's better than everyone again. It's okay now I remember why I disliked you in the first place. By the way can I ask you what your full reads are? Scum wise I mean because honestly you seem okay with lynching a shit ton of people. Throw mud at BBM, okay with lynching me, okay with lynching RD, Eury is defintely scum, weirdness that no one targeted the one claimed newb guy I guess this could be mud slinging as well, Wants to lynch kaoz, Said he's going to look at like 4 people and never followed through.

Seriously who do you actually think is scum and who do you want to lynch that isn't everyone? Stop posting pages of bullshit get off your high horse and actually do something you pretentious fuck.

[Haze]

Holy shit.

[Shinori]

Hi haze. Ilu

[Haze]

Okay first off I have no idea how to read Shinori. It's like watching a clown juggling while riding a unicycle and trying to infer their dreams and aspirations from the arc and trajectory of the balls.

On the other hand, not a fan of his claim, since universal backup was always a common scum fakeclaim and I'm doubting that Clipsey would let us potentially have 2 rolebomb martyrs, a PGO and a potential doctor.

Admittedly I don't know what kind of bs the mafia have, but 2 rolebomb martyrs kind of throws that out of the window anyway.

##Vote: Shinori

Also done replying to SB until he actually reads #168 and #201 with his best pair of reading glasses, with one exception since I realised I meant to respond to this ages ago but bluescreened mid post and never got around to it:

-Disagreeing he lacked meaningful content - How was this the case?

Because your definition of "meaningful content," seems to be posting lists of reads constantly, which I'd already stated I didn't agree with.

[Shinori]

Technically I'm not allowed to take some roles and Eclipse said she'd told me which roles.

Haze you partially remind me of Zero Punctuation lol.

ANYWAY: Let me get this straight you're voting me cause of Role speculation? Cause that's what it sounds like.

[Shinori]

Why did shit stop happening on day 2?

Where is everyone?

[BBM]

The main reason we aren't lynching Shinori today is because he can become the town's Mayor Bodyguard, and considering the Mayor shows up in the votals, it's very provable. So if people want to vote him today they should explain why scum have a Backup.

[BBM]

That reminds me- Shinori, why didn't you take Bearclaw's role?

[Shinori]

I forgot he was mayor as well and thought it was only a bodyguard. I can get it tonight if that's what people really want.

I also have to make sure I can take his role.

[Prims]

Nothing is super terrible but

this is stupid, if scum can help it they're never going to be super terrible so i don't know what you expect

and also what I outlined about RD in my huge post was pretty bad imo

Also RD's post on Shinori looks like he's nitpicking at a guy who did a bunch of Bad Things so that he has an emerging wagon to push over himself because let's face it, Shinori is an easy lynch right now.

RD, how do you feel about Kaoz, Balc, Rajam etc now? What about Eury, since he was the other person on the Rajam wagon you disliked?

I don't really agree that Kaoz is scum. I don't think he would have blatantly rolefished Frosty if he was scum and the reason he provided for doing it were legit reasoning that I don't think scum would have thought of - I think if Kaoz would have tried to stay away from something that's generally considered to be a kind of obvious scumtell.

This is a horrible reason to white knight somebody.

"I don't think your logic makes X scummy because Y" is a fair reason to disagree with a case.

"I don't think your logic makes X scummy because X did some scummy thing and I don't think he'd do that as scum" is FUCKING TERRIBLE WIFOM. Do I really need to spell this out? Players regardless of alignment can get away with asking a lynch target for a claim and elaboration on that claim; that person is a lynch target. Plus rolefishing is hardly even going to be seen as a scumtell when posts like yours let people get away with it because it's "blatant".

Haze, do you think SB is scum?

[Shinori]

I guess Prims is ignoring stuff that is below him. Seems normal.

[FrostyFireMage]

I'm not really feeling a Shinori lynch. If he truly were scum, he wouldn't be getting so blatantly defensive.

Prims been making a lot of posts where he pretty much says shit all.

Scarlet's declaration about "being rusty" sounds like a good excuse to be non-committal.

Probably will read more later while abstaining from voting for the time being.

[Prims]

FF is scum btw

[Shinori]

I'm not really feeling a Shinori lynch. If he truly were scum, he wouldn't be getting so blatantly defensive.

Prims been making a lot of posts where he pretty much says shit all.

Scarlet's declaration about "being rusty" sounds like a good excuse to be non-committal.

Probably will read more later while abstaining from voting for the time being.

Yeah I commented on this but:

FF is scum btw

Prims is being Prims and feels like he doesn't need to do anything because all of us lowly life forms are beneath his elitism.

[eclipse]

The "it's kinda slow but I'm bored" votals take 2

Shinori (3) - Balcerzak, Scarlet, Haze

Radiant Dragon (2) - SB, BBM

Fire Flower (1) - Rajam

Kaoz (1) - Prims

SB (1) - Radiant Dragon

Scarlet (1) - Shinori

Not voting - EVERYONE ELSE (that's three of you)

Phase ends in 22.25 hours. Keep it civil, yo!

Edited March 3, 2014 by eclipse

[charlie_]

Shinori: did you take #460 from a quicktopic or something?