H5 Tier list topic

[_____]

She's laughing at Rickard for being able to use keys because she actually has combat worth.

Even if she's not using keys, there are a ton of characters that can.

Rickard's thief utility is mostly convenience and money saving. That's it. It's nothing ground breaking enough to outweigh many characters' combat ability.

I never said that. I was saying that just because Midia can open a door, that doesn't mean that thief utility is worthless. You can't buy Chest Keys, and it frees up Marth to actually finish a chapter in a reasonable timeframe in many instances. I'm tired of people saying "lolthiefutility" in this thread, pretending it doesn't exist because doors can be opened with keys.

[Rodykitty]

Thief utility exists, it's just so little and even replaceable in instances that it's not going to be considered better than superior combat ability.

So "lolthiefutility".

Edited August 26, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Colonel M]

Chainey, of all people I can't believe I'm hearing this.

You're argument is basically saying that a unit carrying keys (two combat failures nevertheless) suddenly supercedes someone that, despite having minor utility, has it? Have you even SEEN that Tomas needs two levels and, let's remind ourselves, that he's an ARCHER. Then we have Midia who needs levels to even become less of a combat failure. Midia needs to be --/7 in order to double Cavs and Archers. Then we have Midia who can't even wield a fucking STEEL LANCE WITHOUT AS LOSS! What makes it worse? She gets -doubled- when the Cavs have 11 AS (she has 9 base, -2 = 7). Don't even say the word Ridersbane because that's even more pitiful: she's likely doubled by CAVALIERS! Good lord, Javelins and being able to wield a Steel Bow suddenly makes her better than someone that, once again I will point out indefinitely, doesn't need a single level? I know durability is the thing, but let's not blow this out of proportion that he can't steal something.

Then we have Midia carrying a Door Key... but what the hell are you going to do about chests?

[_____]

Did you ever wonder why there's such a large amount of money in this game? I mean, we're paying for Silvers from, like, Chapter 10 on, so how are we getting it? Primarily Bullions. Bullions and bullions and bullions. All bullions in the game are in chests, which require either Marth, who also needs to be rushing towards the throne, a Master Key, which is very limited, or a thief. 3 of our Master Seals are in chests as well. 12 stat boosting items are in chests. Both of our Physics early on are from chests, not to mention the Silver Card and assorted weapons like Wo Dao, Poleaxes, a longbow, and multiple killer weapons.

How is this "little"? Just the stat boosting items would cause the Master Key to run out, and that's not counting it's uses on doors, and then many of these chests are out of the way of the throne. Thieves are the only realistic options, and yet you're disregarding it.

[Rodykitty]

You're argument is basically saying that a unit carrying keys (two combat failures nevertheless) suddenly supercedes someone that, despite having minor utility, has it?

Yes, because they don't suck at fighting as much as Rickard does. At least Sniper class gives them a means of struggling to salvage themselves that lowers their chances of getting killed. I mean, sure Midia's offense sucks, but it doesn't suck as bad as Rickard's durability.

Rickard starts with 16 Base HP and 3 Base Def.

He's one shotted by anything with at least 19 Attack, which is a lot of enemies.

Let's feed him ten levels even though he'll never be able to get said levels. Oh look! He gained a whopping THREE HP and NO DEFENSE. This will help against silvers, OH BOY!

Fun fact. Rickard needs to be level 14 just to survive an Archer on Ch. 10. A freaking archer. Rickard needs to be level 17 just to survive Cavs.

To top it off, Rickard's offense isn't even that great either. Base 4 Atk (which results in 17 attack at level 30 if you somehow manage to grind him), and 9 Speed, meaning much more trouble doubling than other swordies. Or heck, even if he had AS he's not doubling half the enemies because they'll just one shot him on counter attack.

Why are you people defending this garbage? Thief utility is the only thing keeping him out of love affair tier.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[_____]

Because thief utility > slightly better combat?

We know he sucks statistically. No one ever said otherwise. You're evading the fact that thief utility is actually really useful by saying "Keys and look, he's killed easily!"

[Colonel M]

Why are you people defending this garbage? Thief utility is the only thing keeping him out of love affair tier.

Come on, how many times must I outline this so hard that it will drive it to the home plate?

THIEF UTILITY DOES NOT REQUIRE LEVELS. PERIOD.

I don't need a lecture on him being a combat failure. I could've told you this. Hell, someone like smash who's never played this game could tell you this too. I don't care how good Tomas and Midia are at combat because I look at it over and over again and see they're practically as big of failures as Rickard combat. Allow me to re-iterate this one more time. Hopefully we all understand: one does not require training, the other does. Which utility are we seriously going to value? Something that is actually worth something (it's called getting cash and that Silver Card without forcing Marth to take detours) or two putzes that can barely chip something? 15 Atk with a Steel Bow is pitiful enough (Midia's case). At least Astram and Samson can double and wield Axes.

[_____]

Even worse, Tomas actually requires a Master Seal to not be Rickard-bad.

[Rodykitty]

Maybe Rickard > Thomas, but Rickard will never even come close to being Midia's level, ever. She has actual durability in the form of ranged attacking and existing HP and Def. This allows her more opportunities to do damage and actually care to take a hit in order to earn the EXP she wants.

And while Thief utility > keys, keys still exist in this game and does lessen the value of thief utility. This is lessened even more by the existence of Master Keys that can open chests. Yes, Thief utility is still useful and Master Keys can't cover everything, but because of all of the keys, most characters can become thieves.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Rodykitty]

I just rose Rickard above Thomas, but I will ignore any argument saying he > Midia.

[_____]

And while Thief utility > keys, keys still exist in this game and does lessen the value of thief utility. This is lessened even more by the existence of Master Keys that can open chests. Yes, Thief utility is still useful and Master Keys can't cover everything, but because of all of the keys, most characters can become thieves.

Did you even read all of that stuff I wrote that pointed out that Thief Utility is really useful because Master Keys can't get them all and Marth will be going towards the throne? There's 28 things listed there, not even counting the Killer Weapons because I'm too lazy to look them up. 10 Master Key uses will not cover all of this and it does not require any type of training to accomplish it.

[Colonel M]

Well, Astram and Samson are definitely over Midia's level to begin with since their utility actually exists (they double... whoops). Also saying that Rickard > Midia never going to happen is plain ignorance or just plain stubborness. If anything Rickard should never pass Samson or Astram's league because their combat utility actually exists.

Seriously, why are we defending the second shittiest pre-promote in the game? Her bases are comparable to ARRAN'S, that alone should say something.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Colonel M

[_____]

Now that I think about it, Rickard is a lot like Wrys, with thief utility instead of healing (it still matters a lot, as I've shown) and no earlygame to help him out... >_>; Then again, Wrys is in Lower Mid solely for that earlygame healing...

[Rodykitty]

Her bases are comparable to ARRAN'S, that alone should say something.

She also joins five chapters earlier and actually has 19 levels to grow. Edited August 27, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Colonel M]

I'm not advocating that Rickard should be above Astram and Samson should be under Rickard in the first place. My problem is Midia should be under these guys and Rickard gives her a run for her money.

[Rodykitty]

Midia below Samson & Astoria is a different issue.

But giving Midia a run for her money? Yeah, no.

[_____]

But giving Midia a run for her money? Yeah, no.

You haven't backed up this claim at all. We have.

whoa i am totally stunned you are obviously right i am so sorry

[Colonel M]

That's it. I was hoping I didn't have to drag this, but I guess I have no choice.

C12X, she reclasses to a Sniper. Let's review:

Sniper (Steel Bow): 7 Str + 1 for bonus + 8 Mt = 16 Atk.

Armors have 12-13 Def, Cavs have 8-9 Def, Archers have 7 Def...

Let's review:

Armors - 6-8 damage. 7RKO or a 5RKO.

Cavs - 7-8 damage. A 5RKO at best.

Archers - 9 damage. A 4RKO!

She cannot ORKO a 7 AS Mage due to being weighed down by a Steel Bow, then gets doubled by the Sniper.

Nevermind she's not in a situation like Dolph where she's underleveled and she'll improve faster.

Combat utility my ass.

[Dat Nick]

This aside one thing irked me about the way Est>Arran was decided...Jackal's sole argument was "getting better>not getting better" when it should be taken into account that nobody cares that you suck less than you used to when you're still getting raped anyway. Est is fucked if she cannot surpass Arran by C20, the end, and I don't recall Jackal ever giving a halfway decent explanation as to how her getting 7 levels by then was justified, he just hyped the whole "getting better>not" thing.

And with that can of worms aside...why did nobody ever think to compare Hero Astram to Sniper Medea?

=32&c[3]=32&c[4]=32&c[5]=32&c[6]=32&c[7]=32&c[8]=32&c[9]=32&c[10]=32&c[11]=32&c[12]=32&c[13]=32&c[14]=32&c[15]=32&c[16]=32&c[17]=32&c[18]=32&c[19]=32&c[20]=32"]...It speaks For itself, really

I also wish to add that I have no idea what the hell to think about Thief utility so I'm staying out of this Rickard discussion.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Joker

[Rodykitty]

I actually rose Est since Triangle Attack does allow a kill, and while it does require fielding of two shakey units, Arran himself is shaky, so....

[Dat Nick]

Okay, but could Astram at least go above Medea?

[_____]

I actually rose Est since Triangle Attack does allow a kill, and while it does require fielding of two shakey units, Arran himself is shaky, so....

For the sake of the comparison, though, we have to assume Arran is played. Catria and Palla are lower mid, so the chances of all 3 being played is very low.

[Colonel M]

Even so, the Triangle Attack gives a good reason to actually attempt to make Palla | Catria get levels much faster to hit promotion faster. Deployment slots shouldn't be a major issue either, from what I recall anyway.

I'm also doubting Smason < Midia as Samson still has 4-5 chapters of being decent(B Axes and 16 Spd does you favors) without needing any sorts of leveling.

[Dat Nick]

For the sake of the comparison, though, we have to assume Arran is played. Catria and Palla are lower mid, so the chances of all 3 being played is very low.

If we're making any sort of debate with Arran, he is being played, the end.

[_____]

If we're making any sort of debate with Arran, he is being played, the end.

I said that. I was saying that the chances of Catria, Palla, and Est being played is slim.