OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

Yeah, Mufasa and Giffca > Skrimir looks right when I look at their 4-E vs. his entire part 4.

[grandjackal]

Resolve doesn't necessarily belong to him. For instance, if Lethe is to go Silver Army and we're using her for the purpose such as weakening for Miccy and Sanaki to easier build levels, I see no reason she shouldn't get it. By then she'd have 28 Speed. Pretty much doubling regardless, but Resolve boosts it to 42, her avoid now 84 before luck is added, which cuts in greatly to the enemy hit in itself as she basically just gained 28 avoid. Another thing is this means that untransformed she would have 14. 14+7 is 21, which means the enemies with their average of 24 AS cannot double her, so it can potentially save her untransformed even.

Some would say it's better on those doubling, but the thing is this is going the Silver Army route. Chances are you aren't deploying people who need to be trained up here, so there should be few who aren't doubling anyways.

That was just an example of course.

Also, how many of you knew that Skrimir is basically Muarim with luck and a MUCH higher starting level?

In fact, Muarim is growing at the rate of a 20/18 dude. Not even tier 3. Skrimir however is leveling like he's 20/20/10. Muarim has quite superior growths outside of defensive parameters, and is leveling a hell of a lot faster. Lulz, Muarim is more endgame-worthy than Skrimir.

for even more lulz, after 4 levels I could get greater effects from slowpadding Muarim with BEXP of which he would get most likely HP, Str and Luck. Sucks that he basically isn't doubling endgame, but neither is Skrimir. Both would be doubling with Resolve regardless. Muarim however would have an easier time surviving (Thunder affinity), while Skrimir's affinity would help him do jack (yay 1 more damage and a bit mroe accuracy). Tigers only need SS strike and max STR to be worthy against auras (pretty much the only time either would be useful endgame). He wouldn't 2RKO, but he'd be doing 40 damage in one blow with both blood tides. 40 damage is pretty close to half health, so it's somewhat forgiveable. However, it's not like I'd bring either to endgame anwyays, but I'd think Muarim is more justifiable. To be honest, I don't even know what Skrimir's doing in mid.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Colonel M]

Yeah but Maurim has the same issue as Skrimir but worse: -Speedwing.

[grandjackal]

Yeah but Maurim has the same issue as Skrimir but worse: -Speedwing.

Muarim at least has the CHANCE, since he's damn well likely to go to 1-E, where one appears in a chest.

[Florete]

Yeah but Maurim has the same issue as Skrimir but worse: -Speedwing.

Muarim at least has the CHANCE, since he's damn well likely to go to 1-E, where one appears in a chest.

And how does that better entitle him to it?

[grandjackal]

Yeah but Maurim has the same issue as Skrimir but worse: -Speedwing.

Muarim at least has the CHANCE, since he's damn well likely to go to 1-E, where one appears in a chest.

And how does that better entitle him to it?

It doesn't, but there's no way in hell all the speedwings are gonna wait just so one can end up in Skrimir's hands. At least Muarim is within a chapter of which you obtain one and thus has the option of using it.

[Florete]

Yeah but Maurim has the same issue as Skrimir but worse: -Speedwing.

Muarim at least has the CHANCE, since he's damn well likely to go to 1-E, where one appears in a chest.

And how does that better entitle him to it?

It doesn't, but there's no way in hell all the speedwings are gonna wait just so one can end up in Skrimir's hands. At least Muarim is within a chapter of which you obtain one and thus has the option of using it.

Okay, so Muarim uses it and goes away until 4-4. How is that any different than just waiting until part 4 to use it? If anything, Skrimir is more entitled to it, because he uses it a chapter sooner. Being in the chapter it's acquired means nothing for Muarim.

[grandjackal]

Best answer I can come up with is smashing Jarod's face in.

[Jaybee]

Which Nailah/BK can do better.

[grandjackal]

Which Nailah/BK can do better.

Yet unlike everyone else on the team, he has a way to be just as capable.

Either way I get neither of them are getting the damned thing.

[Narga_Rocks]

So, anybody have any thoughts about Janaff > Zihark or Micaiah > Oscar?

[Florete]

I don't really want to get into Janaff vs. Zihark, and since I initially suggested Micaiah > Elincia, I'm fine with her (and Laura probably) > Oscar.

[grandjackal]

What's there to debate? High tier GM>High tier DB. Janaff wins.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't really want to get into Janaff vs. Zihark, and since I initially suggested Micaiah > Elincia, I'm fine with her (and Laura probably) > Oscar.

Well, unless someone else wants to get into it with Janaff vs. Zihark, I suppose I don't really care.

Yeah, I know you suggested Micaiah > Elincia, and it might just be reasonable, but since I don't really know where to start with that I figure might as well start out with the easiest. I think she's significantly better than Oscar at least as far as playing for efficiency is concerned. Laura is probably as well, but Laura doesn't have Micaiah's thani-bombing to work with so it's almost solely based on healing. A forged light will be super accurate but her tier 2 magic cap is 25 and speed is 23, so it's a little difficult to apply anything but her healing, especially with her low bases and tier 1 cap of 15 speed. Still, for a while she's the only healer.

So, I guess you haven't bumped Micaiah above Oscar yet since last time I suggested

Micaiah > Oscar

nobody said anything about it?

Edited September 5, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

What's there to debate? High tier GM>High tier DB. Janaff wins.

I love your use of statistics to back up such a statement >_>.

Zihark has 3 more chapters of availability and his chapters should be weighed more than Janaff's chapters because of how piss easy the GM chapters are compared to 3-6 and 3-13. Zihark's performances in 1-6, 1-7 and 3-12 are nothing to scoff at either. And his avo at least makes him one of the more durable DB units in 3-6 (behind Nolan, BK, Volug and possibly Jill/Aran) and 3-13. So pre part 4, it's a close call.

Pre 4-E it's a win for Janaff with flying utility, superier Atk + adept rates, tear, 2 mov and concrete durability (though note that Zihark has 1-2 range). But come 4-E-3, Zihark starts to win again with Wyrmslayers, superier res, 1-2 range + superier adept activation rate. Oh, and the AS let's him double Auras without Nasir.

I suppose it all depends on how much you would weigh 4-E-3 onwards and his performance pre-part 4.

Micaiah > Oscar

This is true, IMO.

Edited September 5, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

If Micaiah> Elincia, we might as well just move Micaiah to the top of Upper Mid. Laura maybe not as much, but I would argue that Laura> Jill. Laura's healing outclasses Jill's combat IMO for the 12 chapters pre-Part 4 Laura is around, Jill wins Part 4 but that obviously isn't as important.

As for Janaff vs. Zihark, I'm inclined to go with Zihark. He has more chapters pre-Part 4 than Janaff does(even when we don't include 3-6 and 3-13), and I would say he's doing relatively better to the team than Janaff is. Janaff probably wins pre 4-E, not by a huge margin though, considering Zihark has 1-2 range, no gauge issues and is probably absurdly durable due to Avo.

Edited September 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

As for Janaff vs. Zihark, I'm inclined to go with Zihark. He has more chapters pre-Part 4 than Janaff does(even when we don't include 3-6 and 3-13), and I would say he's doing relatively better to the team than Janaff is. Janaff probably wins pre 4-E, not by a huge margin though, considering Zihark has 1-2 range, no gauge issues and is probably absurdly durable due to Avo.

I don't see how Zihark is doing relatively better to the team than Janaff is. Zihark loses to Sothe, Tauroneo and Volug in 1-6, (to Taur by a lot) and in 1-7 loses to the entire LEA and still Sothe and Volug. In 1-8, he loses now to the LEA, and Nailah, and Volug and Sothe, but at least he's only competing with Sothe in the east, although Vika can help out there too. In 1-E there's BK and Nailah and Muarim and Tormod, and he's now in direct competition with them all.

Janaff starts with 40 mt, can have 41 mt by 3-10 with 7 adjacents in 2 chapters, then possibly 42mt in 3-E if you push it in 3-10 and 3-11, but with Canto and gauge induced downtime and 9 move (7 sometimes) I think it might actually be reasonable to get 6 adjacents and 1 shove in 3-10 and again in 3-11. Maybe not, though. He gets Swordmasters for all of part 3, which is a feat accomplished only by Mia and Ulki and Ranulf (and transfer Ike). He gets Warriors in 3-7 and 3-8 and Halbs in 3-7. He gets 4 out of 6 halbs in 3-10 with a C Ulki and continues to get the Warriors and Snipers (these even without C Ulki). Gets all the paladins in 3-10 as well. In 3-11 he's now missing halbs even with B or C Ulki, but he's still KOing Warriors without Ulki. Gets 4 snipers if he has C Ulki or another fire/water/dark unit. Only 5 at the start of the chapter, so 4 out of 5. Gets all the paladins with a C fire/water/dark, only misses 4 without it. Doesn't KO the sniper or warrior reinforcements (3 total) even with a +mt support, though. In 3-E, 1 sniper is ORKOd by base Janaff, 2 need a C +mt support, and 1 needs an A +mt support. Out of 6 halbs, base J gets none, a support of C with fire/water/dark gets him 2, an A support with Ulki gets him 2 more, and he can't get the last 2 without something more than supports. Out of 6 warriors, base J gets 4, and supports aren't getting him the last 2. Base Janaff still gets a lot of paladins, and a C +mt support gets almost all the rest. He needs 42 mt for only 1 paladin.

Then in part 4 the direct comparison begins and it's a blowout for 1 range stuff. 47 mt and tear by now, at least assuming an A Ulki by now and S strike. I guess he needs 49 mt by 4-3, though, so the blowout stops now. And 4-4 has a lot of 2 range stuff, but in 4-5 it doesn't actually matter, and having flight here is great. Really, Janaff shouldn't be going to 4-4, so having flight in the desert makes up for lacking two range, and he doesn't really need 2 range in 4-5. He doesn't double ravens, except any that have 30 speed, but ORKOs the cats and all but one hawk. 3HKOs all the tigers.

That's without really giving Janaff anything. Give him an energy drop, and he's 3HKOing all the generals forever and ORKOs all those things I said he misses (except still 3HKOs tigers). And no longer even needs a +mt support in part 3. Or give him adept, and he's got a 34% chance of procing so 56.44% chance of KOing all but generals (not giving him both a drop and adept) (dragonmasters are 3HKOd throughout part 3 by base level/strike Janaff). Or give him ~20% of our bexp reserves and he's got tear and a 56.44% chance of killing everything but red dragons at just A strike. Sure, 20% seems like a lot, but if you are only raising 6 GMs for endgame, 20% is only a little more than 16.666% that everyone might as well get anyway. Obviously other GMs will be helping because 6 units likely aren't going to be as efficient as having nubs help finish kills, but nubs don't really need bexp. Also, as he's battling even 1exp per attack means if you wait a couple of maps and bexp him in 3-10 (he does pretty well in 3-7 and 3-8 anyway) then it's probably <20%. Even if you are using more units than six, they may not all have things capped so bexp for Janaff one time seems like a small price to pay to make him better if you are unwilling to give him a drop or adept. Plus it basically frees both of those two items up.

Anyway, he loses to the other GMs mostly because of gauge and no 2 range and availability. But while he's transformed and deployable, Janaff is pretty good. I don't think Zihark is closer to his competition than Janaff is to his. (even not including Nailah/BK, but since they exist it makes the comparison even more painful)

As for Zihark's durability, what's his support and level? A level 15 Zihark with A earth has 30 x 2 + 16 + 45 + 15 = 136 avo, but only 37hp/16def. Even with a draco shield that's just 18 def. Give him a Jill support, avo drops to 121 but he has 37hp and 20 def with the draco. Janaff has 34 x 2 + 30 + 15 + 5/8 = 118 avo/121 avo depending on B support or A support. Also, 57hp and 25/26/27 defence. With B Ulki, for example, it's 57 hp and 26 defence. He loses avo by only 3 to a Zihark with A Jill, and wins concrete by a lot. Even giving Zihark an A Volug means Janaff loses avo by 18 but wins concrete by 20 hp and 8 or 10 defence, depending on whether or not Zihark was given a draco shield. And 16 res vs. 15 res might seem like it isn't so bad for Zihark with mages, but aside from the somewhat rare but certainly avoidable wind sages, Janaff still has that massive 20 hp lead. After Zihark promotes, sure, it's reduced, but Janaff is still ORKOing much more than Zihark. If both are given Adept, Janaff is still going to kill more since all Janaff generally needs is either adept or tear. Zihark needs a crit before promotion. When he's 4HKOing, adept alone isn't killing. After promotion, crit or astra is still not going to get as high a KO rate as Janaff can get, whether both have adept or both don't.

Maybe the difference in availability and Janaff's gauge is enough to make Zihark > Janaff, but Zihark is not doing relatively better to his team than Janaff is to his. Well, in 3-12 Zihark is pretty good, I suppose.

And the energy drop gets stolen near the end of 3-5 so it's only a few turns before Janaff can use it. Considering he's likely the only unit that can grab it and improve this much I say he has a good claim to it. Not Gatrie and the 3-3 crown level of claim, but probably pretty good. Then he's doing really well compared to his peers and the only issue is missing a bunch of player phases due to grassing and being careful about who attacks him on enemy phase and how many. He's still probably under a few of them, but in comparison to the gap between Zihark and some of his peers?

[-Cynthia-]

My point in regard to Zihark's durability isn't necessarily that it's better than Janaff's, just that it's more than sufficient. Once we add in Zihark's A Earth and likely authority stars, his chances of getting hit are so low that his concrete defenses don't really matter. You could even argue that Zihark does better, since we have to keep Janaff away from Xbows. Basically, Zihark has enough durability to be exposed to loads of enemies, wheras Janaff's exposure is limited by gauge.

Edited September 6, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

Zihark loses to Sothe, Tauroneo and Volug in 1-6, (to Taur by a lot) and in 1-7 loses to the entire LEA and still Sothe and Volug. In 1-8, he loses now to the LEA, and Nailah, and Volug and Sothe, but at least he's only competing with Sothe in the east, although Vika can help out there too. In 1-E there's BK and Nailah and Muarim and Tormod, and he's now in direct competition with them all.

I'm not so sure about Zihark losing to Vika. She's locked to 25 atk, and Zihark can beat that with a simple Steel Sword. She beats him durably...transformed.

I think he also doubles some stuff that Sothe, Volug, and Tormod miss out on.

Then in part 4 the direct comparison begins and it's a blowout for 1 range stuff. 47 mt and tear by now, at least assuming an A Ulki by now and S strike.

S Strike might be a bit much. He needs 35 rounds doubling to get it, which is 7 per map. That doesn't sound like a lot, but due to Tear and finishing blows, he won't always double. Somewhere in the middle of 4-P/1/2 probably, or at least by the start of 4-3/4/5.

I guess he needs 49 mt by 4-3, though, so the blowout stops now. And 4-4 has a lot of 2 range stuff, but in 4-5 it doesn't actually matter, and having flight here is great. Really, Janaff shouldn't be going to 4-4, so having flight in the desert makes up for lacking two range, and he doesn't really need 2 range in 4-5. He doesn't double ravens, except any that have 30 speed, but ORKOs the cats and all but one hawk. 3HKOs all the tigers.

Well, Zihark has Wyrmslayers. And terrain bonuses, I guess.

Anyway, he loses to the other GMs mostly because of gauge and no 2 range and availability. But while he's transformed and deployable, Janaff is pretty good. I don't think Zihark is closer to his competition than Janaff is to his. (even not including Nailah/BK, but since they exist it makes the comparison even more painful)

You can give Zihark stuff as well. Toss him a Robe or Shield and now he's likely beating Sothe and Tormod, so that only really leaves Volug, Muarim, Nailah, and BK. And they aren't all around for each one of his maps, they come one-by-one, and, with the exception of Volug, disappear, unlike Janaff's competition who's always there.

And the energy drop gets stolen near the end of 3-5 so it's only a few turns before Janaff can use it. Considering he's likely the only unit that can grab it and improve this much I say he has a good claim to it.

I don't really like assigning Energy Drops because there are very few units who consistenly ORKO (Ike and...Shinon?), so pretty much anyone sees good benefit from one. It's not like Robes and Shields where units exist who'd see practically no improvement from them.

[Progenitus]

Janaff should be higher in general. He's a strong contender for one of the best five units in the game.

He roflstomps Mia pretty badly.

level mia needs to be to match Janaff's base in stats...

HP: never

str: never

mag: who cares

skl: 20/20/11

spd: 20/20/4

lck: never

def: 20/20/8

res: 20/20/4

lolwut

Oh, but raw stats are what matters, right? Well actually, the main thing, att, doesn't matter, since Janaff has such a huge str lead Mia takes forever to catch up to him. Since he has 40 base att, Mia with a max mt steel sword and +2 att from supports doesn't even reach that until she hits 3rd tier. except, by that point, Janaff gets S-strike, or gets it like a couple turns later or whatever, and then Mia just keeps on losing until she gets the VK, at which point she now wins att by like, 2 points or something (until Janaff gets SS-strike, then he probably wins again. Note that Mia caps str really fast, at which point Janaff can catch up). And still loses everything else except spd.

It's also worth noting that Janaff and Ulki are very likely to support each other, in which case Janaff gets more att, which will come at the point where Mia promotes and goes from "gets roflstomped" to "loses".

and...

lvl 30 Janaff's chances to get a Tear, assuming he's still at base spd; 56.4%.

20/20/1 Mia's chances to get crit or astra, assuming the enemy has 20 lck; 50.2%.

Oh, but Mia has 2-range/no transformation issues, right? Well actually, for starters, Mia's 2-range is terribad for a long time because wind edges suck. She's extremely unlikely to 2HKO sages in 3-11; that's how terrible they are. And storm swords and tempest blades are in low supply. Plus Janaff has flying/canto.

Also, wasn't it agreed earlier that Janaff > Gatrie? Why did he suddenly move below?

Edited September 6, 2009 by pen15

[Jaybee]

Janaff should be higher in general. He's a strong contender for one of the best five units in the game.

What is this I don't even.

Ike, Haar, Reyson, Volug and Sothe. There's our top five. Ike and Haar are monsters in attack and defense, Reyson is a Chant machine, Volug is the DB's saviour and Sothe is pretty much all the DB has for a long lasting defense until 1-5.

Also, you didn't even onsider Mia's availbility lead and how much ass she raeps with a good forge while Janaff does absolutel nothing.

[Florete]

And here I thought smash had given up on this topic. Damn

Anyway, he wasn't a part of the sixteen page Mia vs. everyone discussion, so until he reads up on that (or proves that he has), I'm not moving anyone.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Progenitus]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part in the discussion where Janaff wasn't beating Mia for the entire time they existed save for maybe a few chapters, in varying degrees, and that Mia's extra chapters of availability weren't enough to overcome it, especially since several of those chapters are her crappiest chapters in the game.

No wait, I didn't miss it. It doesn't exist.

[Interceptor]

I'll make this post relatively short, smash, since you aren't likely to be reading it anyway.

This is a tier list that ranks units based on their usefulness for game completion. It does not rank units based purely on a comparison of their martial stats. Average stats are generally decent predictors WRT efficiency, but naturally cannot tell you the whole story. So, in order to accurately rank units, we need to look a whole lot deeper than you just did. The basic reason why Mia is as high as she is: she does more for efficient game completion than Janaff can.

The reason for this ties in mostly with her availbility, what she does with resources, and the opportunity cost thereof. Mia is a resource-intensive character, but what she needs is either basically free (critforges that we have plenty of money for), something that very few people want (Vantage), or is something that she uses better than almost anyone else (Adept, Cancel, Ike support). It's very important to emphasize that last point, because in most cases where you either 1) give those resources to someone else, or 2) split them up amongst multiple people, you will wind up with a slower, less efficient runthrough. This does not mean that Mia gets things for free, but it does mean that the cost is minimal.

Janaff has resources where he is efficient as well: a Satori sign is free (although the 4,300 BEXP that he needs to get to 30 in order to use it, is definitely not), olivi grass is essentially no cost (enough unless you are deploying an entire zoo, but note that this does not apply to Laguz stones), he's a pretty good candidate for Adept, and he's an excellent candidate for an Energy Drop.

The issue for Janaff vs. Mia is that he is just not around long enough to have the effect on the game that she does. She has 3-P through part or the entirety of 3-7 where he's not even around. She quickly becomes one of your best combatants, and it's not long before she's effectively invincible. There are places where Janaff has advantages, but the efficiency gains he represents are minimal in comparison with what she's doing alongside him, in the places where he even wins at all (gauge is always going to be a limiting factor for him). The worst part about lack of 2-range is that Part 4 is where is actually starts mattering, and now it's a serious problem for Janaff since Mia has Storm/Tempests for those situations where she needs them on Enemy Phase.

The fact that I can send IkexMia somewhere and have them rape everything that they touch is a huge boon for efficient play. This cannot be overstated: Ike's other partners are largely less efficient than Mia is. If you can't kill as hard as Ike does or survive without bubblewrap, you are slowing him down.

This was all argued with excruciating detail and in-depth arguments while you were off in la-la land, but I am delibrately just outlining the skeleton for now. Read the arguments carefully and do some critical thinking before you start your Mia counter-campaign.

EDIT:

Here is some required reading for you, smash.

Narga's Mia v. Gatrie Carpet Bomb

Edited September 6, 2009 by Interceptor

[nflchamp]

And storm swords and tempest blades are in low supply

Like anybody who isn't locked to swords wants a storm sword/tempest blade.