Masquerade Mafia - Universal Loss

[Refakitty³]

@UM- Did you read my 179 properly? I said that the meta point was something that Darth's possible player did as scum, not town. As for why I chose Darth over Kumaneko, it's mostly because Darth has more content that's worse than Kumaneko, while Kumaneko, as someone (either Resolute or Jugger) pointed out, hasn't really had that many posts.

Darth- you might not be Rapier, but that doesn't actually make what you were doing less scummy. It would be a misrepresentation of the arguments I've made against you to say that I find you scummy only because Rapier did the same thing as scum in Volcanic. You were voting SR for pressure simply because he had few posts over actually pressuring your top scumread. When SR did post, you stopped voting him immediately, implying that your vote was more or less just an inactive prod, which is pretty useless to make at that point. In addition, the idea that a larger base of shallower "information" about players is better than a smaller base of deeper information about players is wrong. You need a depth of information on somebody for a good lynch.

[Refakitty³]

Another thing- I might not agree with spreading my attention out over a lot of players, but if you do, why aren't you doing it? You have literally almost only spoken about Orion and SR. There was a little bit about Bob at the beginning, but you haven't made any attempt to update that. And even SR wasn't really scumhunting. You said yourself that you never found him scummy. And even Orion is super-shallow. All you really have is the stuff at the beginning about the reaction test, and that he didn't talk about his Jugger vote for a while. After that, all you said about him was when he was attacking you for having generic reads. All you said was that it was his first scumhunting attempt in a while. Maybe true, but not actually an attempt of analyzing the content of that scumhunting attempt.

You've spent more of your time defending yourself than anything else, and your question to Orion about how he would feel if people ignored his attempts at defence feels whiny, in the bad way.

Hmm, I might actually switch from Orion to Darth, dunno. Can we have votals?

[Olivier]

Deploying UnnofficialVotal.TXT
(5) Orion: Javert, fffff, Darth Vader, ChanServ. Fluttershy
(4) Darth Vader: Resolute, SupremeRuler, Ultimate Muscle, Orion
(2) Uncle Bob: Jugger,
(2) Kumaneko: England, Uncle Bob
(1) ChanServ: Mint Slice
(1) Javert: Kumaneko

There are 8.683333333333.hours left in the phase

[Refakitty³]

Javert, I don't actually think you've posted opinions about anyone other than Orion, and a couple of your posts are also just defending your vote. You said that you thought UM misrepped your Orion vote- what are your opinions about that, and him, now? And you haven't said anything at all about Darth, one of today's leading wagons. IIRC you never anything about Bob or the Bob wagon either.

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

....and? You didn't respond to it at all. I left that response there and you never went back to it.

I was arguing over the reasoning of lynching a lurker

This quote doesn't contain the word "later" anyway.

I don't know what you want me to say about it that I haven't already said. I already sddressed it here.

I also don't like Jugger apparently saying that other votes on someone shouldn't really matter, or whatever it was he meant, and I didn't like how I couldn't tell immediately what he meant. I'm not saying roleplaying is a scumtell, but phrasing stuff in a vague way is, and if roleplaying is the method used to do that, it's still annoyingly vague.

The quote doesn't include the word "later" because I had already quoted Supreme Ruler saying it. >_>

I'll be happy to! To dumb it down to levels even an idiot should understand: Orion's request for "explain why we shouldn't lynch you" can't be answered well. Either it forces Resolute to make promises about his conduct/roleclaim ("I'll catch all scums/I'm a cop") or the more logical, "No one's posted seriously yet, lynching anyone is a crapshoot". Meaning, we might as well lynch Miller over all else. HOWEVER, the chief problem here is that in the latter case, he can proceed to vote Resolute and sit on that. In the former case, he can vote Resolute later based on not following through with his promises/set up an easy nightkill on a powerrole.

Anyway, nothin' to claim, I'm vanilla. Vader and Fluttershy are scum. Jugger I'm less suspicious of now (If he was scum, he'd know I was gonna be a mislynch and therefore probably would turn down his arguing with me to avoid being associated with the lynch, plus I think I've said before that his posts are generally looking better to me). I'd guess one of England/Kuma is scum too.

[Refakitty³]

Blah, I don't think Orion would claim vanilla to get out of a lynch as scum at this point in the phase. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Darth Vader

Orion, do you have a case against Fluttershy? All I've seen from you about him is that you don't really like his attack against you.

[All Might]

And why are you so hesitant to get such a major reason to vote anyway?

I'm not hesitant to get a major reason to vote I'm hesitant to vote without good reason because I don't like mislynching and I felt that lynching one of those three for simply voting Orion would lead to a mislynch. I.E. I thought they were townies making the wrong decision so I decided to try and stray them off the wrong path. If I were to vote you would get the wrong impression of my opinion towards those three.

Of course there's going to be more to say about you/Darth/Orion

There's more to say but that doesn't mean that Kuma could simply be overlooked like he was. Even at the time just after he posted noone (aside from England) was voting him. They can't say that they weren't voting him because he was inactive then so clearly they were overlooking him.

@Flutter I believed that is/was the same argument Resolute used so I addressed both of them way back. I thought you meant this post, which is the one I was responding to. There's not much I can really do/say about you misreading my tone though and it's a little annoying that you read it that way.

Just to clarify I was not neutral on Orion/Darth. I found them both slightly scummy (Hence the "I'd be happy to lynch them") but I simply found Kumaneko's posts worse, even if there's only 2 I find them scummier than what Darth/Orion have been saying and I wasn't sure if he was being inactive or just lurking. He's promised a content post after a reread so I guess I'll let him off the hook for now. Emphasis on "for now". ##Unvote

I'm going to reread Orion/Darth's ISOs again because I'm probably just being bad and not seeing what other people are seeing.

Rereading Orion has left me thinking that perhaps some of the criticism is unfair. Aside from the criticism of his Jugger vote which I obviously disagree with because I agree with the logic behind that vote we have people like fluttershy saying that he's too focused on responding to criticisms of himself when I would think it'd be scummier if he simply handwaved those criticisms to go on scumhunting. If he's finding it hard to keep track of the thread then at the very least he's responding to people's criticisms unlike Kuma. Also f5 complained that he put a lot of effort into his first two posts but I'm not convinced that that's really that scummy, someone mentioned that it's like he's being self-conscious and that's mafia are but that's WIFOM. That being said while he may be finding it hard to scumhunt with all that is going on I would still like to see opinions on other people in the thread including me, CS, Kuma and England too when he's up for it. If he does that then I'd be mostly happy with him.

Moving onto Darth; his recent response to SR doesn't satisfy me very much, especially after stating that he hasn't been posting one liners as responses directly before that. He either misses the point that SR was trying to make by asking him that or didn't bother stating it. I also agree with England's point about him noticing Kuma's post but not actually responding to it at all, especially as I found Kuma's posts to be really bad. Also his response to Orion almost sounds like an OMGUS with him saying he doesn't still doesn't like Orion, which implies he doesn't like what's in his next post, then goes "be fair for once" "How would that make you feel" it's ok to be frustrated but I don't like his reply there.

Speaking of England, he seems to just appear, throw down a bunch of reads - which is good and I sometimes agree with them like above - but doesn't actually partake in discussion which is kinda annoying. Nothing major but worth looking into.

##Vote: Darth Vader

I would not oppose vigging Kuma for obvious reasons.

Pedit: Good thing I reread this page on a different tab. I don't know why it sometimes tells me about new posts and then stops telling me about them.

I swear ChanServ does nothing but WIFOM; that being said I'm inclined to agree for once. I'm happy that Orion posted reads as well.

[All Might]

Oh man it took me 3 hours to write that, that really shouldn't have taken me so long. I just wanted to quickly add because I forgot:

That and vote-switch from SR to Orion is questionable considering SR was on Orion earlier.

I don't think I like this logic, people's opinions are always subject to change and Darth did say he found Orion scummy in his vote post on SR. It's no different from calling both Darth and Orion scummy when they're both eyeing each other up.

[Refakitty³]

Orion posted reads, but he needs to actually go in-depth into those reads. Bob's change of opinion about Orion based on the exact same content that he had earlier is sort of iffy, idk.

As for me using WIFOM a lot, I'll admit I do, because I think that real scumtells are what people do to avoid the more "traditional" scumtells, half of which apply to bad play just as much as they apply to scummy play anyways.

[Olivier]

I'm making a short post that I don't care about Orion's claim and I would take it with a grain of salt, even if it is Vanilla. Even if he does Vanilla claim, there's still a good chance of Scum!Orion avoiding a lynch today in favor of Darth Vader, and if he bluffed he would just as likely be shot down.

[Olivier]

Uncle Bob lynch isn't happening today anyway, so ##Unvote

##Terminate Program: Orion

[Ochako Uraraka]

Urk, I meant to take a quick break for lunch and it's been 12 hours ._.

I'll try and fly through things quickly and catch up.

[No Elimination]

ffff, so mean! :P The reason I picked SupremeRuler over the other people was because I thought that his vote was the least explained and he was seemingly quick to jump to conclusions like "scum trying to set up D1 mislynch". I'm liking him better now because he's explaining himself and I don't have serious issues with his reasonings. But while we're speaking of my arguments, it's hard to not sound "rehashed" when you guys are doing all the talking when I'm not around and rarely around when I am :P

Orion, care to explain to me why I'm scum? :P It's rather out of the blue, considering you've never spoken about me before. Also, I don't like how you label Fluttershy as scum. Mind telling us why she is scum? Is it because she "misrepped" you or because you don't agree with her? I don't see the connection. You may be a claimed vanilla, but I'm not feeling your actions. It's obvious you don't like Darth Vader, and you talked a lot about Jugger, but can you explain to us why Fluttershy is scum and why you suddenly think one of Kumaneko or I am scum, despite never speaking of us before?

I didn't see Uncle Bob's initial post as that bad. It's possible for a person to not like a wagon, but not suspect anyone on it of being scum at first. I'm actually not finding him bad, looking through his posts, so I dunno what the fuss is all about.

Resolute, my vote is on Kumaneko because I didn't like his posts and he has done nothing to change it. He hasn't really done anything at all, except to say "I'M LAZY AND NOT FEELING IT". I don't see the need to mention that I want to maintain my vote on him in every post I make because I still don't like him :P Also, my "retelling" of ChanServ and Mint Slice's argument is so that if I missed anything important someone could correct me. The amount of emotion in their posts makes it really hard for me to see the actual point that they're arguing, so I wanted to make sure I was not mistaken.

Jugger, I still think that Kumaneko is scummy, but it's obvious he's not getting lynched today. I have no opposition to Orion and Darth Vader wagons, I'm starting to get a bad feeling about Ultimate Muscle! I think his early vote on Javert wasn't good, but the way he switched his vote over to Darth Vader after one post of discussion with Javert is questionable, since he never mentioned what he still thought about Javert until later, directed as a response to Fluttershy. Also, UM shouldn't be using meta to judge players in an anonymous game! So lame!

Also, I'm seeing a lot of complaining abut misrep. People, if you feel that someone has misrepped what you're trying to say, don't get mad! Just point out that they misinterpreted you and explain what you really meant. :P

[Ochako Uraraka]

Let's do a little pretend, what if everybody voted you. Then you post a reason that you think could get you out. But everybody disregarded it and continued to vote you anyway. How would that make you feel?

The least you could do was respond, you only did so after I specifically asked you about it.

@England I've explained this many times and I don't feel like doing it again. And which Kumaneko post do you want me to respond to?

This first paragraph isn't really a valid point against Orion, IMO. It's more just "how would you feel if people were voting for you?" idk though, I'm coming back after a break so I'm not really sure of the context, but you can't really ask him to respond to something that you haven't asked yet. (probably getting this wrong, clarify for me)

Also couldn't you just respond to all of them he has all of 4 posts including a confirm and a "I'll provide content later" which he still hasn't. I'd agree with whoever said that this slot should be vigged, so people aren't wasting their votes on him tomorrow in favor of people who actually HAVE content. Even if they're just a lazy townie, lazy townies lose games.

I disagree that England's scummy; partly because I think even if he's doing a recap that's not necessarily scummy considering one is bound to say things the others have said, especially if their timezone's unkind to them; the other reason being I think the player playing that slot is Shin- Shin's meta suggests that he does this as town as well. And while you can tell me that playing using meta is bad in an anonymous game, well tell me why do people make themselves look obvious then? This is more on a subconscious level, my apologies.

Hint: some people RP as other people in anonymous games. That said, this is a pretty convincing Shin impression, if it's not really Shin, but still. The timezone thing isn't really a huge thing, considering that SB and kirsche are both in the the same timezone and post more often than Shin. It's just his playstyle. But yeah, your "Shin does this as town too" argument kind of falls apart since he also does it as scum. And this is IF he actually is Shin, and not someone playing a really good masquerade (although it probably is Shin.)

Vanilla is an easy claim for scum to make so I'm not particularly sold on it. You could probably wifom about it, but eh. I guess it's believable enough.

I'm not hesitant to get a major reason to vote I'm hesitant to vote without good reason because I don't like mislynching and I felt that lynching one of those three for simply voting Orion would lead to a mislynch. I.E. I thought they were townies making the wrong decision so I decided to try and stray them off the wrong path. If I were to vote you would get the wrong impression of my opinion towards those three.

Why were you so concerned with mislynching them that early in the phase? And how does all three players jumping on Orion for a reason you didn't find particularly make them look townie? It should be the opposite, with scum looking for easy reasons to make votes that they can sit on and drive mislynches from.

Orion, care to explain to me why I'm scum? :P It's rather out of the blue, considering you've never spoken about me before. Also, I don't like how you label Fluttershy as scum. Mind telling us why she is scum? Is it because she "misrepped" you or because you don't agree with her? I don't see the connection. You may be a claimed vanilla, but I'm not feeling your actions. It's obvious you don't like Darth Vader, and you talked a lot about Jugger, but can you explain to us why Fluttershy is scum and why you suddenly think one of Kumaneko or I am scum, despite never speaking of us before?

Also, I'm seeing a lot of complaining abut misrep. People, if you feel that someone has misrepped what you're trying to say, don't get mad! Just point out that they misinterpreted you and explain what you really meant. :P

The bolded is a good catch, although England's almost guilty of the same thing since he only talked about one thing that he disliked about Orion/Darth before this post, and later on in the post he goes on to say he'd be happy with lynching either of them.

And misreps are scumtells. Scum try to twist townies words and use them against them, so I'm not really too happy with your lighthearted dismissal of them.

Oh yeah. Vote's still on Vader, but I'd wagon any of Vader/Orion/Bob. Not sure if there's enough interest in the latter though.

[Ochako Uraraka]

Votals

(6) Darth Vader: Resolute, SupremeRuler, Ultimate Muscle, Orion, ChanServ, Uncle Bob

(5) Orion: Javert, fffff, Darth Vader, Fluttershy, Jugger

(1) Kumaneko: England,

(1) ChanServ: Mint Slice

(1) Javert: Kumaneko

We don't need to hammer anyway, so.

[No Elimination]

Resolute, misrepping people can be a scumtell, but not all misreps are malicious. Sometimes, people just miss the point or don't understand what someone's trying to say, which leads to accidental misrep. Either way, I'm not sure why people are getting so worked up about it like it's the end of the world. :P

Also, I am aware I haven't mentioned what I dislike about Orion/Darth Vader as much as most people have. I'd be fine lynching them because I'm not happy with what they have continued to do since my previous posts in addition to things I had mentioned earlier. Orion's suspicion on me and Kumaneko seems opportunistic because he never mentioned either of us until suggestions about vigging Kumaneko and other people talking about whether they think I'm acting funny came up :P

[Paperblade]

Votals

(6) Darth Vader: Resolute, SupremeRuler, Ultimate Muscle, Orion, ChanServ, UncleBob

(6) Orion: Javert, fffff, Darth Vader, Fluttershy, Jugger, England

(1) ChanServ: Mint Slice

(1) Javert: Kumaneko

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Paperblade

[C. C.]

England, between Darth and Orion, who do you prefer to see go and why? Voteparking on Kumaneko is dandy and all, but it can also be construed as a method to keep your nose out of the lynches and claim innocence if for some reason they flip green. Just going, "Kay I'm fine with lynching those two" without further bothering to differentiate between the two just reinforces this belief; Do you care which one goes or is it all the same to you?

If not Darth I would strongly start looking at England. Why not Orion? Because he shall have Day 2 (as far as I care) to do something beside respond to people. Why England? Because see first part of this post. I can definitely see the scum angle in his actions and game-strategy.

I actually have no idea what Javert's posted lately. This is troubling considering I have a clear idea of Kumaneko. (Hint: Useless.)

I'm not sure I like ChanServ's reasons for swapping?

[No Elimination]

Oops, forgot to unvote :P

##Unvote

##Vote: Orion

I think he's worse than Darth Vader. His calling Fluttershy, Kumaneko, and me scum without provocation looks like he's pointing fingers to make anyone else besides him look bad, especially since he didn't even explain why he thought we were scum. Also, the only person on his wagon from his "reaction test" earlier that he talked about was Jugger, not so much of a mention of anyone else or if he thought they were scummy.

[Refakitty³]

I'm voting for both Orion and Darth on those votals, Paper.

SR- I was kind of feeling that maybe I should switch to Darth even before the claim, and the claim just sealed it, because a mafia about to get lynched isn't going to claim something that most people consider a throwaway role. They want to claim some sort of PR that'll either cause people to unvote them, or failing that, draw out a CC from a strong PR.

Also, as for not being sure what Javert's posted lately, it's because he hasn't posted in around 30ish hours.

[All Might]

I'm not voting both Kuma and Darth PB. Resolute's seems accurate. At this rate though it seems we'll be no lynching.

Why were you so concerned with mislynching them that early in the phase? And how does all three players jumping on Orion for a reason you didn't find particularly make them look townie? It should be the opposite, with scum looking for easy reasons to make votes that they can sit on and drive mislynches from.

I'm bad at words. I meant that they could be townies jumping to the wrong conclusion, and as it has been said before: agreeing and disagreeing with someone doesn't make them scum and I don't think it was 'easy' reasoning; I just didn't read it that way.

I'm always concerned about mislynching because I want to win.

[Paperblade]

fixed votals

[Paperblade]

Also I believe you have an hour

[Ochako Uraraka]

I dunno if I'll still be around at phase end, but I'm fine with switching to hammer. If I go earlier than expected, I'll switch before leaving.

[Ochako Uraraka]

That said I would prefer a Darth lynch, except we don't have a claim from him anyway so it's a bit of a gamble.