Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 4 - Game Over

[BBM]

99% sure it's a reference to Healer Mafia, where Refa and SB were Co-Driver pseudo-Masons and probably also MLP where they were buddies

Refa's Boron vote is kind of weird because it's like 'there isn't really anything townie she's done' and then he says he'd be okay with a lynch on her. It seems kind of like a disconnect, and while he mentions stuff about her earlier in the paragraph, I don't really see what's scummy about what Boron's said about me. You don't need a post directly analyzing somebody's content to talk about them and give a read on them, and from what Boron's said it's pretty clear to me that she considers me null at worst? Plus, like... Boron isn't going to be lynched today, and spending a lot of time reading her and Eury and stuff isn't really helping town- only his reads on me, Elie, and Weapons are really relevant right now.

Also Elie I'm frustrated as fuck because even when I'm like 'go look back at my post' I AM REITERATING MYSELF, EVERY SINGLE TIME and you're just ignoring and misrepping me. Like seriously, look at the post you just quoted. After I tell you to read my post again, I EXPLAIN MYSELF AGAIN ANYWAYS. It's not a meta case on Bearclaw. There are some things that ALL scum do, regardless of who you are, and you have absolutely no grounds to say that you disagree with this when 90% of your entire vote on me is solely because according to you, self-meta is the scummiest thing anyone can do full stop period case is made time to lynch the person using self-meta. For literally the fifth time, I'm using what I did in AM/PM as an EXAMPLE of what I believe ALL scum do- try to discredit townreads on people they want to possibly mislynch at some point. Just because it's an example of something I did doesn't mean others can't do it too. That's like saying "Man this one time in Healer I hard-defended my buddy on D1 because I didn't want her to be lynched. But that's something I did, so other people definitely don't defend their scumbuddies D1 right???"

Also, yes, you are throwing around accusations with no backing, because this last post is literally the first time you've directly mentioned Bearclaw in relation to me, because every other time you characterized the case as a 'self-meta defence'. So I am perfectly in my right to say you've never looked properly at my Bearclaw case. And you've never looked at any part of my Refa case either.

[Percivalé]

WOW I lost my post I'm done I give up for this morning.

Sorry Elie, I was more looking for a character/userclaim and then you claimed with it already and ninja'd my post because I'm not used to checking recent replies before I post mine.

Also not sure if I'll be online for the end of the phase because as it turns out I have a ¡¡¡LATE CLASS!!! but whatever I'll try to get something in before then

[Mitsuki]

Time to reply to stuff, not quoting everything if I feel like the points that are brought up have already been answered.

wrt Mitsuki, I'm gay and bad at mafia (also I'm actually Manix. we're the same person) & why would you ask if that's my usual meta and then put me on your scumchart anyway

Yes I know you're Manix. I'm Vhaltz.
As you've seen, you're below lurkers. You've done some stuff that I see as scummy but attitude reads townie other times. I want to know other people's opinions on what I said because a lot of people are saying you're obvtown and I'm guessing most of it is because of meta, but I'd still lynch you before someone I haven't found scummy at all.

Mituski's SKay vote is Bad; it's purely set-up spec that doesn't even count that she herself hosted a setup only several weeks back that had a town hydra slot. Like wtf???

That setup was 9 slots (10p), there was no place for a 3rd party there.

I know my SB/Kay vote wasn't the best, but mods didn't count me as V/LA, I couldn't understand what was going on in the thread and I didn't want to be prodded.

I should probably point out that the context in which I was posting wasn't the best, I was in the same room as like 7 other people who were playing games and laughing/screaming. Also, I was thinking of Fantasy Mafia since deadline was close there.

- I don't like mitsuki's vote. I know it could be that she doesn't know about Kay's usual activity pattern but there are better reasons to vote people

There were, I just didn't read the thread properly.

As for /rolespec/, roleblockers help scum more than they help town. Does that means all roleblockers are gonna be scum? Nope.

I didn't want to say that my logic made you confirmed 3rd, I just wanted to say that your slot was more likely to be 3rd than other slots. I still think the same way, but I haven't seen anything indicative of alignment from you.

First two posts are still very scummy and questions have not been addressed. BBM case feels contrived and opportunistic, by the lack of conviction, timing, and that I find BBM's lines of thought reasonable in the quoted passages. In particular because I remember it, the last one where BBM talks about how outing cult can cause town to get overly suspicious is perfectly valid reasoning, which makes Mitsuki's point contrived. Additionally, it's a very minor point, so there's not that much to Mitsuki's case.

What's scummy about taking a while to reply when there is more important stuff to do first?

I don't get why you say my BBM case is opportunistic, I hadn't read the thread before making it. I also don't see how I lack conviction there.

Could you explain why BBM's point on outing the cult is perfectly valid reasoning? If people don't know that there is a cult there's never going to be a way to stop it.

A friend came over, I'll answer to the other stuff later or D2.

[Refa]

Refa's Boron vote is kind of terrible what. He brings up that he agrees with Weapons' points but then dismisses them based on meta, but still votes Boron at the end anyway because she's defending someone from votes she disagrees with? Like, at the end your conclusion is "her posts are fine but aren't townie WOULD LYNCH ##Vote: Boron" which makes no sense. His weird fixiation with Boron seems to carry over to his Eury read too for some reason? It looks like he's trying to draw associations between the two to make the cases stronger than they actually are.

Firstly, this is a shit dismissal because I didn't dismiss Weapons' points based on meta (read harder). Defending someone whose votes you disagree with is fine, but she's literally expressed no opinion of BBM ever. Also my point with Eury is that she's scumreading everyone but one person, not she's scumreading everyone but one person so she must be secretly defending her scumbuddy. If anything, I feel like Eury would have a null read on her scumbuddy.

Refa's Boron vote is kind of weird because it's like 'there isn't really anything townie she's done' and then he says he'd be okay with a lynch on her. It seems kind of like a disconnect, and while he mentions stuff about her earlier in the paragraph, I don't really see what's scummy about what Boron's said about me. You don't need a post directly analyzing somebody's content to talk about them and give a read on them, and from what Boron's said it's pretty clear to me that she considers me null at worst? Plus, like... Boron isn't going to be lynched today, and spending a lot of time reading her and Eury and stuff isn't really helping town- only his reads on me, Elie, and Weapons are really relevant right now.

That isn't even why I want to lynch her why argh. Already explained the former point. Would you be unwilling to lynch someone who you had a null read on? Also it's kind of dumb to be like "Refa, we can only lynch between me, Elie, and Weapons" when the former two aren't even people I want lynched (where do I even have a read on Weapons though...).

I'm just kind of frustrated because I spent forever making a case and people are like WOW REFA THAT IS A SHIT CASE WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTING PEOPLE YOU SAID YOU DON'T WANT TO BE LYNCHED.

[Refa]

Also Elie's claim doesn't make sense as scum AT ALL (no, my role isn't "Refa", before people ask) considering both me and SB were town in Healer.

[BBM]

pretty sure that the mods would be more than willing to change town/town to town/scum if they wanted to do so- IIRC Paperblade didn't like that you guys were Masons in Healer.

Also like... yeah you can be willing to lynch a nullread over people you don't want to lynch, but that implies you have no scumreads.

[Refa]

Fair enough, but I feel like flavorwise it would make more sense for "Refa" to be scum than SB.

Yeah, but like her scumread on Elie (correct me if I'm wrong) is basically her saying he has a shit case on you. Like I don't know how to word it but it bothers me.

[Refa]

Actually I don't see why mafia would have a 0-Shot driving role that only unlocked when town got lynched?

[Elieson]

I agree with elieson and this is also in regards to blitz, but i did find bbm scummy until the past few pages. I really don't like him now and in a read through, but it looks like he just keeps trying to excuse things and is tunneling a bit too hard?

It really just feels like you're trying to throw suspicion off of yourself by . this whole post doesn't sit well with me. Elieson is even willing let you explain your arguements and find quotes and you ignore that.

I claimed because my role told me i was unrecruitable and because it alerts me to the presence of a cult? So I wanted town to know about the cult. Weapons literally had no reasoning other than "hey i'm unrecruitable".

I disagree that BBM is only scummy because of his self-meta, but it certainly doesn't make himself look better

I like Psych's reason for claiming, despite the exact roleclaim itself.

I also don't really understand the top sentences

Looked through Elie's ISO to see what's making him so bad. And ... I don't understand what he's doing. His first post that I can say is game-related doesn't really do much for me. "Weapons is bad because this. Have some thoughts on everyone else but it's not really committal!" I have issues with his vote on BBM because it feels like his only reason for voting BBM is the self-meta defense. I also don't understand how BBM's self-meta alone pushes him that much above SB on his scum list, and it just feels like an easy reasoning.

I feel like Refa is posting a lot of empty noise without anything useful. I don't understand his case on BBM, and it doesn't sound like Refa really suspected him either when he voted for BBM. He's posted a lot about why he doesn't find certain people bad, which is at least something, but his only actual scum read seems to be BBM and he's not even pushing that.

Refa ≥ Elie > bearclaw > Mitsuki > Beli

Not gonna lie, I think Boron makes good case points here and against me too, god i suck, but one thing I probably didn't make clear is just how much things like self-meta usage appear as scummy behavior to me. While BBM refered to his behavior as typical scum behavior in an effort to point out bearclaw's actions, I still think that it's scummy to have attributed himself to it. I still have reservations against SB but i've been so focused on replying to bbm that I haven't really touched on anything else

I also think Elie is scum. This post is barely contentless, and while I know that Elie likes to spam a lot, doing so to such an extent feels like scum trying to add filler to their posts.

This is from the same post I linked. This feels like scum trying to bias a player towards thinking that a certain role may be scummy, I feel like if Elie just wanted to give an explanation on a role he wouldn't have commented on it to that extent.

I don't even get this. I'm scummy because i gave a detailed explanation to ffm?

ok sorry roommate made me do dishes. I have a roommate now. it's great and also awful

##Unvote

##Vote: Elieson

All right so Marth said it for me: Elie is way more passive-aggressive/aggressive in general when he's scum. This I remember at least. Usually when he's town he's a lot easier on the pushing and stuff, idk. This is why I kept associating my read with ~gut~ and ~meta~ because usually when Elie is scum he stands out in the weirdest way and I can't really explain it aside from this. I would really like to see an Elie lynch today over BBM/Refa.

I read through Elie's ISO and here's stuff that bugged me

This is his response to SB's opinion of his BBM scumread. Not only is this passive-aggressive but this and just Elie's scumread of BBM in general reeks of opportunism? BBM puts a lot of effort into explaining why what he was doing was not self-meta, and not only does this feel like scum aggression but self-meta alone doesn't make someone auto-scum (even though I agree that it is scummy in a lot of cases, those of you who are still going on about BBM's ~self-meta~ making him scummy need to go look for other things because idk I just have a bad feeling about this wagon).

(To be clear: BBM when he's scum tends to be more of a neutral presence that talks a lot without doing much either way? And BBM here really just isn't doing that.)

I really do not like this, it's waffly and I know associative reads are shit but because I'm reading both Mitsuki and Elie as scum this just makes the both of them seem worse to me :x

This kind of confuses me too. It reads like backpedaling? "I voted Weapons because I thought he was antitown and possibly third-party BUT I don't want to push a third-party anymore"

???

not to mention he doesn't... even consider weapons scum or town, just comes to the conclusion that he's third party and refers to him as such?

Reading his BBM case over again and yeah, it just feels like it's literally only "SELF-META IS THE WORST THING YOU CAN DO TO ARGUE YOUR INNOCENCE YOU ARE SCUM" and the thing about his reads charts which BBM clarified.

All this hate on my meta :(

Bleeeeh

##Unvote

##Vote: Elieson

Not really reading BBM's recent posts as scummy, and I don't like how Eli reappears to say I GOT A CAT and vanishes again.

I haven't actually read Eury's post yet (I'll do it when I'm properly awake) but that feels like way too many suspicions for Day 1 that you'd be willing to lynch by (and FFM is third priority when he has one post? What?) and it makes me kind of paranoid that you're just throwing out whatever you can find on as many people as possible.

Associative reads don't really work day 1, the best you can do is point them out for later days. So I don't really see what's wrong with what BBM did there tbh. Also there's a cult, so cult v mafia interactions could possibly be a thing.

Dude, you haven't even said anything about Via. Why are you jumping to the conclusion BBM is relying on his scumbuddy to clear a fakeclaim for him?

I agree with Weapons about Mitsuki's BBM case being meh because she hasn't talked about any of his recent posts despite casing him?

Marth, why did you go "I can see Mitsuki being scum" for no reason? If you haven't even read her posts, how can you ever consider it to be a gutread?

Might post more after properly waking up, dunno.

Hey I fell asleep early and unexpectedly.

Dismissing Marth's gutread is pretty lame though. Gutreads are a thing and you can't hammer on someone for stating them.

[Elieson]

Beli's responses to Iris and Sangyul seem questionable. A Sub-call is one thing, but why would mafia draw attention to themselves with calling for a sub anyway? They'd be better off just lurking Day 1 and letting someone else take the lynch. If anything, it's a nulltell, but it's hardly a scumtell to be extremely committed to. That and the response to Blitz mid-day that seemed more sarcastic than anything else. It'd have fit in better if there were more content, but all there really was (still is) from Beli is a strange and noncommital scumread on Quote for not being Obvtown or something like that, and a read on Iris for the Sub-Call. Any further posts could have and should have had something else in it. Even commenting on me would've been better, but why's Beli avoiding talking about the elephant in the room, I don't get it

---

Bear didn't have that much on Quote, but he didn't find her obvtown. That's fine, it's D1; having super obvtown reads in EARLY D1 is a bit of a stretch to ask for. His post was so simple...for the time, I think it was fine.

Man, all those votes over 1 sentence (maybe 2 I'm too lazy to check) don't have much to say in my defence because I believe in the legitimacy of my post (even if it lacked reasons). What I meant about Refa's BBM vote was that I don't really like the post with just a vote but I'm not sure if it's scummy (I didn't actually say this because it was late and I was tired)

There's barely anything in here to suggest that he is panicking scum, and his reaction actually reads as super /natural/ to me. Lazy/distracted-natural, but still natural

[Paperblade]

Elieson (7): Iris, Shinori, BBM, Rein, Levity, Boron, Kay/SB

BBM (4): Blitz, Elieson, Psych, Mitsuki

Iris (2): scorri, Belisarius

Mitsuki (2): Proto, Weapons

Boron (2): FFM, Refa

Weapons (1): Eurykins

Blitz (1): Marth

Voteless (1): Bearclaw

5 hours left

[Elieson]

I'm gonna be here until Phase End and i feel like I'm finally feeling the energy to effort and there's only 5 hours left wtf I'd support an extension if only to get other people in here like FFM and Shinori and Belisarius and scorri and Bearclaw and Kay

Not really a fan of Iris' response to my vote, feels like OMGUS ;/ It felt like Mitsuki was her highest scumread in #133 yet she votes Elieson mostly out of gut? That's also pretty hypocritical I guess, which is itself pretty hypocritical considering her response to my vote. Hypocritiception? I'm guessing by BBM's comment that she's fairly new so it could just be newbishness

Boron's fixation on bearclaw feels odd considering there are more players with more content. Plus her recent posts feel more like she's criticizing others, namely Beli (#211 and #214), possibly to make him seem scummier?

anyway Boron is the player who I'm getting the largest scum vibes from at the moment.

##Unvote

##Vote: Boron

FFM Why did you vote for Boron? Upon a read of this, it feels like you're forcing your vote for Boron, but that you have a better reason to vote for Iris [Distancing note for later?]

[Elieson]

oh ##Extension. You should all sheep me on this anyone who wants a shorter day phase is lame

[Iris]

I'm for an extension too, no time to read now, need to finish packing! I'll keep my phone by me to check periodically though

[Percivalé]

an extension won't mean much to me since I'll be pretty busy tonight and tomorrow but sure ##vote: extension

[Refa]

##Vote: Extension

[Elieson]

Marth I don't understand this because you never outlined a scumread on Refa; not even once. You kinda said you'd settle on him, and the rest of the game [read, your next post only so lol] so far features you lumping refa in on a hefty wagon. I just don't get where you stand here. Also I'm looking into your Blitz case and ISO'ing blitz simultaneously, and I'm leaning more towards your side (I should compare Blitz!ISO to Rein since you're kinda sheeping him here).

[BBM]

like ##Vote: Extension but are we really going to change to someone brand new?

[charlie_]

Not sure how much time we have left but I'll ##Vote: Extension so that the inactives can weigh in on things?

Replies to other things coming in now.

[Refa]

It'll give someone time to claim "Refa", if nothing else.

[charlie_]

Why would you want Refa to claim?

[Paperblade]

Extending Day 1 by 24 hours.

[Elieson]

Refa are you actually Refa and not Not-Refa?

[Refa]

Because they've been neighbors and he'd probably have a better read on Elieson?

[Mitsuki]

##Extension

Elie's latest posts make me think he's town. I don't think scum would be trying so hard when it's so clear they're going to be lynched, much less Elie (he self-hammered in Doomsday Clock mafia).