Tino vs. ZXValaRevan

[Tino]

Because bows >>>, rite?

Coming soon.

[Tino]

Innes is inferior on Eirike Route. As such, proving Eir. Route Innes > Neimi should be enough.

Innes will practically always have a level lead over Neimi. Neimi has chapters 3 through 9 to gain levels before Innes joins, and the stat gaps are pretty ridiculous when that time is there. He only loses a bit of crt, but that's all. In order for Neimi to be equal to Innes, she would need to be 20/1, and she's not gaining almost three levels a chapter on average.

Then Neimi is the worst earlygame unit you have, with fail offense and fail durability. Her 2 range when others have 1-2 range or 1 range options doesn't help her, either.

10/0 Neimi, B Colm

Steel Bow: 19.1 atk, 7.4 as, 108.7 hit, 14.8 crt ,, 22.0 hp, 28.3 avo, 5.3 def, 6.1 res

??/1 Innes

Steel Bow: 23.0 atk, 15.0 as, 113.0 hit, 6.5 crt ,, 31.0 hp, 44.0 avo, 10.0 def, 9.0 res

When Neimi promotes, it's a pretty massive durability lead against a mount and slightly superior offense, so Innes is still winning.

20/1 Neimi, A Colm

Steel Bow: 28.5 atk, 17.3 as, 114.8 hit, 23.3 crt ,, 29.5 hp, 55.6 avo, 10.3 def, 13.1 res

Steel Sword: 27.5 atk, 16.3 as ,, 53.6 avo

??/7 Innes, B Gerik

Steel Bow: 25.4 atk, 17.7 as, 114.2 hit, 12.7 crt ,, 35.5 hp, 62.1 avo, 13.2 def, 12.5 res

Then it's still debatable endgame.

Sorry it took me so long to make such a short opener. Sorry for it being short anyway, but I feel the first post and final post shouldn't really weigh much, so I don't want to spend too much time on it.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Sorry for being OMGWTFUBERlate. I was (still am) sick, had a lot of internet and power trouble, and I'm completely snowed in right now. :(

Innes is SUPERIOR on Eireka's route actually. :D But hey.

Now, to the actual debate:

Innes will probably have a Level lead, it's true, but it won't make as much of a difference as you make it out. First of all, she will likely close the gap eventually, and, during that time she won't be to badly outclassed, and here's why:

Neimi has some nice Supports. She is basically guaranteed Colm A, due to ZOMGTITSEVERYWHERE speed, and I see even you have to concede this. :D She also has a good chance at a nice B Support, say, with Garcia, for some hawt FirexFire action. She has other choices to, but this looks nice.

Let's just check back on the examples YOU made. I won't even change her level or anything, even though I could make an argument for that. JUST giving her a tiny C with Garcia, although even that is hardly needed.

10/0 Neimi B Colm, C Garcia

Iron Bow: 17.1 atk, 11.4 AS, 123.0 hit, 19.5 crit - - 41.3 avo, 22.0 hp, 5.3 def, 6.1 res, 8.5 critavo

Steel Bow: 20.1 atk, 7.4 AS, 108.0 hit, 19.5 crit - - 33.3 avo, 22.0 hp, 5.3 def, 6.1 res, 8.5 critavo

??/1 Innes

Steel Bow: 23.0 atk, 15.0 as, 113.0 hit, 6.5 crt ,, 31.0 hp, 44.0 avo, 10.0 def, 9.0 res

Now, Innes does win this, but it's hardly a crushing blow here. Because Neimi is also benefiting other members of the team (and was also doing so since she showed up). She might not be a great unit early game, but she's hardly a burden.

But I guess we'll fastforward a little to Promotion:

20/1 Neimi A Colm, B Garcia

Steel Bow: 28.5 atk, 17.3 AS, 134.5 hit, 33.0 crit - - 65.1 avo, 29.5 hp, 9.8 def, 12.6 res, 13.5 critavo

Steel Sword: 27.5 atk, 16.3 AS, 139.5 hit, 33.0 crit - - 63.1 avo, 29.5 hp, 9.8 def, 12.6 res, 13.5 critavo

??/7 Innes, B Gerik

Steel Bow: 25.4 atk, 17.7 as, 114.2 hit, 12.7 crt ,, 35.5 hp, 62.1 avo, 13.2 def, 12.5 res

Here, Neimi is winning Offense pretty nicely, and while she is losing Durability, it doesn't kill her at all. Neimi has a massive advantage over Innes now though, because she can wield Swords, and has nice Mov. The Swords are REALLY important here. With them, she can counter attack on Enemy phase (indirectly improving her durability), avoid more counter attacks from enemies, and earn a lot more Experience (because fighting on both phases > fighting on one). Also note that she can switch to a Killing Edge (not too unreasonable) in order to increase her AS a little, and give herself massive Crit.

Endgame is not really debatable at all. Neimi will simply get an even more massive Offensive lead, and the Defensive lead Innes enjoys will barely increase, and in fact, could decrease with Neimi's growing Avoid.

Innes is probably superior to Neimi before she promotes, but not by much, considering that she has Supports to help out the rest of your team, and has more availability and everything. After Promotion, Neimi starts picking up, and will eventually steamroll Innes.

[Tino]

Innes is SUPERIOR on Eireka's route actually. But hey.

Fuck. Whatever :P

Neimi has some nice Supports. She is basically guaranteed Colm A, due to ZOMGTITSEVERYWHERE speed, and I see even you have to concede this. She also has a good chance at a nice B Support, say, with Garcia, for some hawt FirexFire action. She has other choices to, but this looks nice.

Garcia? Lol. It's not like he's FE7 Dorcas or something. His earlygame isn't as great as you might think. Though he's dealing nice damage and has pretty good hp, his offense and durability still aren't anything special. The axe users in Chapter 2 and 3 still deal massive damage to him, and Garcia fails to double. And his doubling problems only get worse, since enemies generally have a higher spd growth than Garcia. Nah, that A Colm really is everything she's going to have. Plus, even if Garcia is played, he'll be supporting Ross and then possibly Gilliam or Seth, which means there's no place for Neimi.

Before you start about her other support option though, lol at Amelia. Then there's Artur, who has Lute and Joshua, and then Gilliam finds much better partners in Garcia/Franz/Moulder.

comparisons

That renders all comparisons pretty much useless, since I'll just change them back to the comparisons I made and claim that Innes > Neimi anyway. And then you'll change it back to your comparisons, etc.

Still, though~

Now, Innes does win this, but it's hardly a crushing blow here. Because Neimi is also benefiting other members of the team (and was also doing so since she showed up). She might not be a great unit early game, but she's hardly a burden.

Not a great unit? Hardly a burden? She's the fucking worst unit when she joins.

1/0 Neimi

Iron Bow: 10.0 atk, 6.0 as, 97.0 hit, 2.5 crt ,, 17.0 hp, 16.0 avo, 3.0 def

And then nobody cares about crit avo and res (since res doesn’t matter for now). Neimi seems fairly decent like this, doesn’t she? Well, she’s actually your worst unit.

4/0 Eirika

Iron Sword: 10.2 atk, 10.8 as, 113.0 hit, 4.9 crt ,, 18.1 hp, 28.4 avo, 3.9 def

??/1 Seth

Iron Sword: 19.0 atk, 12.0 as, 122.5 hit, 6.5 crt ,, 30.0 hp, 37.0 avo, 11.0 def

Iron Lance: 21.0 atk, 112.5 hit

3/0 Franz

Iron Sword: 12.8 atk, 8.0 as, 103.0 hit, 2.9 crt ,, 21.6 hp, 18.8 avo, 6.5 def

Iron Lance: 14.8 atk, 93.0 hit

5/0 Gilliam

Iron Lance: 16.4 atk, 3.3 as, 94.3 hit, 3.2 crt ,, 25.9 hp, 9.9 avo, 9.6 def

1/0 Vanessa

Iron Lance: 12.0 atk, 8.0 as, 96.0 hit, 3.5 crt ,, 17.0 hp, 20.0 avo, 5.0 def

3/0 Moulder

Heal: 0.0 atk, 9.0 as, 0.0 hit, 0.0 crt ,, 20.0 hp, 19.0 avo, 2.0 def

4/0 Garcia

Iron Axe: 16.0 atk, 7.0 as, 90.5 hit, 3.5 crt ,, 28.0 hp, 17.0 avo, 5.0 def

3/0/0 Ross

Hatchet: 10.0 atk, 3.6 as, 94.8 hit, 1.4 crt ,, 16.4 hp, 16.0 avo, 3.5 def

2/0 Colm

Iron Sword: 9.0 atk, 10.0 as, 102.0 hit, 2.0 crt ,, 18.0 hp, 28.0 avo, 3.0 def

Neimi is losing pretty badly. Eirika, Seth, Franz, Vanessa, Garcia and Colm easily beat her in stats already, and that’s even without factoring in Eirika having a h4x Prf weapon, Seth being mounted and having 1-2 range, the same for Franz and Vanessa. I also haven’t factored in Garcia’s 1-2 range and Colm’s thieving utility. Then Gilliam has massive durability, Moulder has healing utility, and Ross has 1-2 range and massive experience gain. In other words, even if Neimi would have that C Colm, she’s still not going to overcome all this. Worst unit upon joining ftl.

So yeah, being the worst character <<< not existing. Neimi hurts my team pretty badly, while Innes doesn’t. Neimi also has 2 range vs. 1 range and 1-2 range shoven in her face at this moment, while Innes hasn’t.

Oh yeah, and she is being beaten badly by Innes. 4 atk/8 as is a massive offensive lead, since it's 8 more damage per round. Then 9 hp/16 avo/5 def/3 res is a fuckton as well. Seriously, how can you not call this a crushing blow? Nice and all, that she benefits one more dude in your team (who is not even always near her due to his thieving duties), but that definitely doesn't make this much less of a crushing blow.

Here, Neimi is winning Offense pretty nicely, and while she is losing Durability, it doesn't kill her at all. Neimi has a massive advantage over Innes now though, because she can wield Swords, and has nice Mov. The Swords are REALLY important here. With them, she can counter attack on Enemy phase (indirectly improving her durability), avoid more counter attacks from enemies, and earn a lot more Experience (because fighting on both phases > fighting on one). Also note that she can switch to a Killing Edge (not too unreasonable) in order to increase her AS a little, and give herself massive Crit.

Dunno, but 3 atk isn't really much of a lead considering she's not killing significantly more with it anyway. And her attacking things with swords actually decreases her durability, since she's going to take damage, and quite a lot considering her fail 30 hp/10 def.

And I can give Innes a Killer Bow as well for 43 crt, which means he'll have a ~75% chance to crit per double, while Neimi with her 53 crt will have an only slightly higher chance. Oh noez.

Endgame is not really debatable at all. Neimi will simply get an even more massive Offensive lead, and the Defensive lead Innes enjoys will barely increase, and in fact, could decrease with Neimi's growing Avoid.

Nah. Innes is better at surviving and killing things, so his defensive leads will definitely increase more. Also, Neimi has 55 hp/15 def/170 avo growths, while Innes has 75 hp/20 def/135 avo growths, so Innes is definitely getting relatively better durability.

more availability

Not being there >>> Sucking

[Defeatist Elitist]

Garcia? Lol. It's not like he's FE7 Dorcas or something. His earlygame isn't as great as you might think. Though he's dealing nice damage and has pretty good hp, his offense and durability still aren't anything special. The axe users in Chapter 2 and 3 still deal massive damage to him, and Garcia fails to double. And his doubling problems only get worse, since enemies generally have a higher spd growth than Garcia. Nah, that A Colm really is everything she's going to have. Plus, even if Garcia is played, he'll be supporting Ross and then possibly Gilliam or Seth, which means there's no place for Neimi.

Before you start about her other support option though, lol at Amelia. Then there's Artur, who has Lute and Joshua, and then Gilliam finds much better partners in Garcia/Franz/Moulder.

I'm glad you brought this up. Garcia might not be Dorcas, but guess what? He's better than Ephraim route Gerik. Which means that AT LEAST 50% of the time Innes will be getting no Gerik if Neimi is getting no Garcia, not to mention that Ephraim route Innes has way less time to build supports, but hey. And Garcia is going to want a B Neimi (since she is being played and all) since Seth has more awesome Supports than you can shake a stick at and won't give full bonuses even if he wanted Garcia, and lawlGilliam won't give as good bonuses and isn't any faster, due to starting at a lower level (which makes up for the 1 chapter lead Gilliam has), plus Gilliam has suck for move. So, at least 50% of the time Neimi should be getting Garcia, and he's not bad at all on Eireka's route, so him being played then isn't unlikely either.

As for her other options, Artur doesn't want Joshua, since Joshua is a worse unit than Garcia, so why in the world would we be using him (you where the one who said Garcia shouldn't be fielded, so if he IS [which I showed that he SHOULD be], then this is needless, since she should get him)? Gilliam apparently finds a better partner in Garcia (lol, you said he wouldn't be fielded, and Neimi is preferable for Garcia anyway), Franz (yeah, he might want some Gilliam pie), and Moulder, but Moulder wants some totally hax Vanessa and Colm stuff going on there. So, if Garcia isn't fielded (which means that Gerik probably shouldn't be fielded half the time), she STILL HAS OTHER OPTIONS. More than I can say for Innes.

That renders all comparisons pretty much useless, since I'll just change them back to the comparisons I made and claim that Innes > Neimi anyway. And then you'll change it back to your comparisons, etc.

See above.

Not a great unit? Hardly a burden? She's the fucking worst unit when she joins.

Not the same thing. Being the worst unit when you join is comparing you to the other characters. Not being a burden is, well, not being a burden. You said yourself that she had decent stats, just that the comparison was killing her.

Being the worst character, but still being competent (because she is) >>>>> not being there. And I think you know that, since all you did was compare her to the other characters at that time.

I'm saying that her being there, even as the worst unit, is still a benefit to the team, which beats Innes. And if you say "well, she's getting beaten by all those other characters", well, I don't care, I'm only trying to prove that she is better than Innes. And of course, she becomes more of a benefit as she levels.

Oh yeah, and she is being beaten badly by Innes. 4 atk/8 as is a massive offensive lead, since it's 8 more damage per round. Then 9 hp/16 avo/5 def/3 res is a fuckton as well. Seriously, how can you not call this a crushing blow?

Because I like to make things sound nicer than they are. :P But seriously, she'll still kill things fairly competently, and as I said before, she could have more levels (and in fact WILL if we're talking Ephraim's Route, quite a few more, since those 5 chapters are pretty big ones).

Dunno, but 3 atk isn't really much of a lead considering she's not killing significantly more with it anyway. And her attacking things with swords actually decreases her durability, since she's going to take damage, and quite a lot considering her fail 30 hp/10 def.

And I can give Innes a Killer Bow as well for 43 crt, which means he'll have a ~75% chance to crit per double, while Neimi with her 53 crt will have an only slightly higher chance. Oh noez.

It'll be more than 3 attack, and more than that in Crit, (as well as giving her a lead in Avoid) if she's got the Supports she SHOULD have, or if we're on Ephraim's route.

As to the Durability... Her Avo is pretty swell anyway, but Swords WILL improve her Durability. Because it is an option (she doesn't HAVE to use them), but it will make her subject to less attacks on the enemy phase (won't eliminate all of them, but that's good, because that way she's getting EXP which Innes ISN'T GETTING). In addition, Swords will let her kill the occasional Bow using enemy without counterattack. Rare, but it still is something.

In fact, the very possibility of using a Direct Attack can help durability considerably.

Nah. Innes is better at surviving and killing things, so his defensive leads will definitely increase more. Also, Neimi has 55 hp/15 def/170 avo growths, while Innes has 75 hp/20 def/135 avo growths, so Innes is definitely getting relatively better durability.

No wai. Neimi is going to continue to gain more AS (and therefore Avoid), putting herself far ahead of him, as well as surpassing his raw damage per attack. Meanwhile, his leads in Defense are pretty tiny, actually. When they're at an equal level he'll have less than 2 Def on her, and even with a level lead, it still won't go above 3, and will probably stay at 2. He does have an HP advantage, I'll give you that. Ironically, in that comparison you drew, Neimi is winning in the combined Growths department, although I know that doesn't mean anything, since you can value the different stats differently.

Not being there >>> Sucking

Not really. Helping the team out >>>> not being there, even if the help is mainly just finishing off or weakening a couple enemies and giving bonuses to other characters.

[Tino]

I'm glad you brought this up. Garcia might not be Dorcas, but guess what? He's better than Ephraim route Gerik. Which means that AT LEAST 50% of the time Innes will be getting no Gerik if Neimi is getting no Garcia, not to mention that Ephraim route Innes has way less time to build supports, but hey. And Garcia is going to want a B Neimi (since she is being played and all) since Seth has more awesome Supports than you can shake a stick at and won't give full bonuses even if he wanted Garcia, and lawlGilliam won't give as good bonuses and isn't any faster, due to starting at a lower level (which makes up for the 1 chapter lead Gilliam has), plus Gilliam has suck for move. So, at least 50% of the time Neimi should be getting Garcia, and he's not bad at all on Eireka's route, so him being played then isn't unlikely either.

Garcia better than Eph Gerik? I guess you were drunk or stoned or something when typing this. I don't know where you got that shit from.

Base Garcia: 28 HP, 16 Atk, 89 Hit, 7 AS, 5 Def, 17 Avo

Average Brigand: 23 HP, 15 Atk, 81 Hit, 6 AS, 4 Def, 13 Avo

Garcia isn't all that special. Most other people who are going to risk a counter at least enjoy the benefits of WTA and higher AS and AS growth. Ross and Vanessa are the only ones worse up close, though Vanessa can at least double.

Ancient Horrors is pretty much the only one in which he'll be one-rounding, and that's so incredibly easy that any unit can do it. Since two of the ten units are Artur and Lute, we have eight empty unit slots left. Then we have Eirika as well, which leaves only seven slots. Seth, Vanessa, Franz and Moulder are all obviously better units. Colm is superior as well. Neimi, though she indeed sucks, actually has a decent endgame with her horse and all that, while Garcia isn't great when he joins, and is tually pretty bad endgame. Ross is bad at first, but awesome later on. In other words, Garcia might not even be used. And then we also shouldn't forget Gilliam, who's easily superior to Garcia as well. Great durability > 1 Mov pre-promotion. Even if he's used, Garcia still fails to double a few enemies such as Iron Sword!Bonewalkers and Mogalls, so he'll eat a counter with WTD or against his Res, which isn't exactly something he'll be content with.

And then his 20% AS growth doesn't help him, nor does him being practically supportless. All he has is good Atk and HP, which aren't going to make up for all his remaining failures. In other words, Garcia is a huge failure, while I doubt it's necessary to tell you that Gerik isn't. Still, I'll prove it all.

15/0 Garcia

Iron Axe: 23.1 Atk, 9.2 AS ,, 36.8 HP, 7.8 Def, 2.6 Res, 25.8 Avo

Steel Axe: 26.1 Atk, 8.2 AS ,, 23.8 Avo

Hand Axe: 22.1 Atk, 9.2 AS ,, 25.8 Avo

10/0 Gerik

Iron Sword: 19.0 Atk, 13.0 AS ,, 32.0 HP, 10.0 Def, 4.0 Res, 34.0 Avo

Steel Sword: 22.0 Atk

4~5 AS easily offsets 4 Atk since 9 AS doesn't double anything but Knights and that kind of enemies, while 2 Def, 1~2 Res and 8 Avo are a bit better than 4~5 HP, also since Garcia might get doubled from time to time. Garcia isn't quite winning here, and his worse growths won't help him at all. All Garcia has is a 20% Atk growth lead, which is nothing compared to Gerik's massive leads. Then take Gerik not being a failure into consideration and we see that Gerik will only become relatively better compared to Garcia. Let's pretend Gerik is 2 when he joins, while Garcia is 1 at the same point. 2 > 1. Now, since Gerik's becoming relatively better, it'll eventually be something like 4 > 1

As for her other options, Artur doesn't want Joshua, since Joshua is a worse unit than Garcia, so why in the world would we be using him (you where the one who said Garcia shouldn't be fielded, so if he IS [which I showed that he SHOULD be], then this is needless, since she should get him)?

Joshua is easily a better unit than Garcia.

5/0 Joshua

Iron Sword: 13.0 Atk, 14.0 AS ,, 24.0 HP, 5.0 Def, 2.0 Res, 35.0 Avo

Steel Sword: 16.0 Atk, 12.0 AS ,, 31.0 Avo

6/0 Garcia

Iron Axe: 17.3 Atk, 7.4 AS ,, 29.6 HP, 5.5 Def, 1.3 Res, 18.6 Avo

Steel Axe: 20.3 Atk, 6.4 AS ,, 16.6 Avo

Garcia is superior against the Soldiers and Joshua is superior against the Fighters/Brigands. Though, Garcia takes more damage fighting Soldiers than Joshua takes fighting Fighters/Brigands. Joshua might be a bit Atk short on one-rounding, but then he can switch to a Steel Sword to one-round or at least deal more damage, and still double.

10/0 Joshua, C Natasha

Steel Sword: 18.3 Atk, 14.8 AS ,, 28.0 HP, 6.5 Def, 3.5 Res, 40.6 Avo

10/0 Garcia

Steel Axe: 22.9 Atk, 7.2 AS ,, 32.8 HP, 6.5 Def, 1.9 Res, 19.8 Avo

Joshua doesn't fail to double anything, aside of a few Myrmidons and Rangers, perhaps. Garcia though, fails to double pretty much anything but Soldiers, which Joshua kills anyway. He's one-rounding pretty much all unpromoted units aside of Cavaliers and the occasional Myrmidon he can't double. That's fucking awesome, since Garcia can't one-round crap unless they're terribly weighed down or are Mages. Oh yeah, and if Joshua fails to double with Steel, he can switch to Iron for a guaranteed double (17 AS doubles everything), while Garcia can use Iron instead of Steel for a still lollable 8 AS.

Then Garcia's durability isn't better than Joshua's either. Enemies have somewhere between 75 and 100 hit on him when he's at WTD, while he has only somewhere between 40 and 60 hit on them, which is rather bad. Myrmidons, Mercenaries and Rangers are also capable of doubling him. When Joshua's at WTD however, he only faces around 65 hit and has 80 hit with Steel, so he has 95 with Iron if necessary. Garcia against Axes or Bows is pretty much the same story compared to Joshua against Swords or Bows, really.

16/0 Joshua, A Natasha/B Artur

Steel Sword: 22.3 Atk, 17.4 AS ,, 32.8 HP, 9.7 Def, 6.7 Res, 57.6 Avo

16/0 Garcia

Steel Axe: 26.8 Atk, 8.4 AS ,, 37.6 HP, 8.0 Def, 2.8 Res, 24.2 Avo

Joshua wins again. Garcia even doesn't reliably double Shamans. Garcia mainly relies on his incredibly low Crt to one-round something, while Joshua can simply bust out a Steel Sword to one-round pretty much everything (or an Armorslayer against Knights). Garcia is better against Wyverns if they're weighed down, and that's it really.

It continues like that throughout the rest of the game.

In other words, Joshua is easily better than Garcia. Artur has Joshua.

Gilliam apparently finds a better partner in Garcia (lol, you said he wouldn't be fielded, and Neimi is preferable for Garcia anyway), Franz (yeah, he might want some Gilliam pie), and Moulder, but Moulder wants some totally hax Vanessa and Colm stuff going on there. So, if Garcia isn't fielded (which means that Gerik probably shouldn't be fielded half the time), she STILL HAS OTHER OPTIONS. More than I can say for Innes.

True. Garcia isn't fielded. I just said he's a better option than Neimi. I said nothing more. Him being a better support for Gilliam doesn't mean he's suddenly a good unit.

Moulder obviously doesn't want Colm. Colm is everywhere but close to Moulder who's at the back, healing or killing things. Gilliam is a much better support for Moulder, since Gilliam has fairly low Mov and thus won't be able to move out far anyway, and will thus be close to Moulder.

Innes has many High/Top/Up Mid Tier character on his support list, so if one of them fails to fill one of their support slots, Innes has a good chance of taking it. L'Arachel is the only really bad unit on his list, but Gerik, Vanessa, Tana, Joshua and Eirika definitely ain't shit characters. Instead, they're pretty good.

Not the same thing. Being the worst unit when you join is comparing you to the other characters. Not being a burden is, well, not being a burden. You said yourself that she had decent stats, just that the comparison was killing her.

Being the worst character, but still being competent (because she is) >>>>> not being there. And I think you know that, since all you did was compare her to the other characters at that time.

I'm saying that her being there, even as the worst unit, is still a benefit to the team, which beats Innes. And if you say "well, she's getting beaten by all those other characters", well, I don't care, I'm only trying to prove that she is better than Innes. And of course, she becomes more of a benefit as she levels.

First of all, her being the worst means she has a low chance of being fielded. The only reason she's fielded is because we're debating her, but just forget this debate and just look at those stats. She's the worst. Why use her?

Second, if she is used, just look at how pathetic she is. We all know Ross sucks cock and balls earlygame. Neimi however, has only 2 Hit, 1 Crt and 1 HP over Ross, while he has 1 Def over her. And basically, that's 1 HP vs. 1, both of which matter nothing since everything two-rounds the two of them anyway (lolBrigands). Ross however, also has 1-2 range and he gains tons of experience, making him more useful than Neimi.

Whoops, she's worse than the worst unit D:

But if you really want the proof of her sucking as a unit... k

Neimi: 10 Atk, 6 AS ,, 17 HP, 3 Def

Random Brigand: 15 Atk, 6 AS ,, 23 HP, 3 Def

Random Archer: 12 Atk, 5 AS ,, 21 HP, 3 Def

Random Mercenary: 10 Atk, 9 AS ,, 20 HP, 4 Def

Random Thief: 8 Atk, 10 AS ,, 18 HP, 2 Def

Everything but the lone Mercenary two-rounds her, and the Mercenary needs only one more AS to actually be capable of two-rounding. Neimi however, three-rounds the Thief, four-rounds the Brigand, four-rounds Mercenary and three-rounds the Archer, which is massive suck.

So indeed, she sucks.

Because I like to make things sound nicer than they are. But seriously, she'll still kill things fairly competently, and as I said before, she could have more levels (and in fact WILL if we're talking Ephraim's Route, quite a few more, since those 5 chapters are pretty big ones).

At least not in her joining chapter, as shown above.

5/0 Neimi, C Colm

Iron Bow: 12.8 Atk, 8.4 AS ,, 19.2 HP, 4.1 Def, 3.9 Res

Steel Bow: 15.8 Atk, 4.4 AS

Random Soldier: 14 Atk, 2 AS ,, 28 HP, 2 Def

Random Cavalier: 15 Atk, 7 AS ,, 27 HP, 8 Def

Random Fighter: 17 Atk, 6 AS ,, 27 HP, 3 Def

Random Mercenary: 12 Atk, 11 AS ,, 25 HP, 5 Def

Random Knight: 15 Atk, 1 AS ,, 24 HP, 11 Def

Random Archer: 13 Atk, 6 AS ,, 24 HP, 3 Def

Random Shaman: 14 Atk, 3 AS ,, 20 HP, 4 Def

Random Mage: 13 Atk, 6 AS ,, 19 HP, 3 Def

Random Bael: 13 Atk, 3 AS ,, 27 HP, 6 Def

Random Troubadour: 7 AS ,, 18 HP, 4 Def

Random Priest: 5 AS ,, 23 HP, 2 Def

Wow... Just wow...

Soldiers two-round her, Cavaliers two-round her, Fighters two-round her, Mercenaries can two-round her if she uses Steel OR they use Iron Blades (which exist at this point), Knights two-round her, Archers almost two-round her (the occasional 8 STR Archers two-rounds her), Shamans two-round her, Mages almost two-round her (again, t hey need only one more STR) and Baels also require only one more STR to two-round her. In other words, her durability fails hard. It can barely be worse.

She two-rounds Soldiers, four-rounds Cavaliers, three-rounds Fighters, four-rounds Mercenaries, five-rounds Knights, two-rounds Archers, one-rounds Shamans, two-rounds Mages and two-rounds Baels. Then she two-rounds Troubadours and Priests, which is rather sad, really. To make sure you got the point: her offense sucks.

So her offense sucks and her defense sucks. That doesn't quite improve her flexibility, nor does it improve her chances to grow quickly. She's very, very bad.

Then the next comparison would be her at 10/0 against ??/1 Innes, which Innes clearly wins. Ephraim Route?

18/0 Neimi, A Colm

Steel Bow: 23.6 Atk, 12.2 AS ,, 26.3 HP, 7.0 Def, 9.4 Res, 44.4 Avo

??/3 Innes

Steel Bow: 23.0 Atk, 15.0 AS ,, 31.0 HP, 10.0 Def, 9.0 Res, 44.0 Avo

A bit closer, but Innes still has 3 AS and some sweet concrete durability over her. Awesome. Neimi's still the inferior of the two.

It'll be more than 3 attack, and more than that in Crit, (as well as giving her a lead in Avoid) if she's got the Supports she SHOULD have, or if we're on Ephraim's route.

Hmm, yeah. Eph Route.

20/7 Neimi, A Colm

Steel Bow: 30.2 Atk, 20.9 AS ,, 34.8 HP, 10.2 Def, 14.2 Res, 65.8 Avo

Steel Sword: 29.2 Atk, 19.9 AS ,, 63.8 Avo

??/7 Innes, B Gerik

Steel Bow: 24.6 Atk, 16.8 AS ,, 34.0 HP, 12.8 Def, 12.0 Res, 59.4 Avo

I must admit, Neimi is superior now. Though she only wins for a small part of the game. Innes was superior before he joined and when he joined. Neimi was only superior near the end of the game.

As to the Durability... Her Avo is pretty swell anyway, but Swords WILL improve her Durability. Because it is an option (she doesn't HAVE to use them), but it will make her subject to less attacks on the enemy phase (won't eliminate all of them, but that's good, because that way she's getting EXP which Innes ISN'T GETTING). In addition, Swords will let her kill the occasional Bow using enemy without counterattack. Rare, but it still is something.

In fact, the very possibility of using a Direct Attack can help durability considerably.

Less attacks? You must mean more. At the front she'll get attacked more than at the back, and her crappy HP/Def make her a good target.

And if she's just going to use bows, that immediately eliminates the advantages Ranger gives. With bows, she's not going to move ahead to kill something. lolenemymagnet

No wai. Neimi is going to continue to gain more AS (and therefore Avoid), putting herself far ahead of him, as well as surpassing his raw damage per attack. Meanwhile, his leads in Defense are pretty tiny, actually. When they're at an equal level he'll have less than 2 Def on her, and even with a level lead, it still won't go above 3, and will probably stay at 2. He does have an HP advantage, I'll give you that. Ironically, in that comparison you drew, Neimi is winning in the combined Growths department, although I know that doesn't mean anything, since you can value the different stats differently.

Above comparisons disagree with you D:

For the growth shit: whatever.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Tino

[Defeatist Elitist]

Garcia better than Eph Gerik? I guess you were drunk or stoned or something when typing this. I don't know where you got that shit from.

Base Garcia: 28 HP, 16 Atk, 89 Hit, 7 AS, 5 Def, 17 Avo

Average Brigand: 23 HP, 15 Atk, 81 Hit, 6 AS, 4 Def, 13 Avo

Garcia isn't all that special. Most other people who are going to risk a counter at least enjoy the benefits of WTA and higher AS and AS growth. Ross and Vanessa are the only ones worse up close, though Vanessa can at least double.

Nice try, but no thanks. Want to compare things a little better? Let's see how he's doing compared with Franz (who is, we must all admit, an excellent unit). Hell, I'll be super duper nice and pretend Franz is level 4, even though there is NO WAY that Franz is going to be getting there unless you feed him every single kill until Garcia joins (and even then...).

4/0 Garcia:

Iron Axe: 16.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 90.3 hit, 3.3 crit - - 17.0 avo, 28.0 hp, 5.0 def, 1.0 res, 3.0 critavo

4/0 Franz:

Iron Sword: 13.2 atk, 8.5 AS, 103.8 hit, 2.9 crit - - 20.2 avo, 22.4 hp, 6.8 def, 1.6 res, 3.2 critavo

Now, against that bandit. Oh, oh boy. Well. Franz has a clear win in of- Oh, wait, no, neither doubles, and even with WTA Franz fails to deal more damage than Garcia. Damn. Too bad. Garcia wins offense. I guess Franz can hit a bit more. Hurray Franz. :D Then we see that Franz has 1 more Def and 3 more Avo, whereas Garcia has 6 more HP. I think the Health wins this, but hey, even if they tie durability, Garcia still wins offense. Still not convinced? We'll try another unit:

Eireka is a fair unit, isn't she? We'll see how she stands up to this. I'll let her be level 4 as well, since I doubt she'll be above that.

4/0 Eireka:

Rapier(she's using this too): 12.2 atk, 10.8 AS, 112.8 hit, 4.7 crit - - 28.4 avo, 18.1 hp, 3.9 def, 1.9 res, 6.8 critavo

4/0 Garcia:

Iron Axe: 16.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 90.3 hit, 3.3 crit - - 17.0 avo, 28.0 hp, 5.0 def, 1.0 res, 3.0 critavo

Oh, look, they're both 2 rounding. Eireka doubles, but she doesn't kill. Offense ties here. Now, durability: I think that 2 Def and 10 HP beats out 11 Avo. Badly.

Looks like Garcia is actually pretty decent earlygame. Plus, Hand Axes, or really lots of things, he starts with a C in Axes and has massive 14 Con.

Ancient Horrors is pretty much the only one in which he'll be one-rounding, and that's so incredibly easy that any unit can do it. Since two of the ten units are Artur and Lute, we have eight empty unit slots left. Then we have Eirika as well, which leaves only seven slots. Seth, Vanessa, Franz and Moulder are all obviously better units. Colm is superior as well. Neimi, though she indeed sucks, actually has a decent endgame with her horse and all that, while Garcia isn't great when he joins, and is tually pretty bad endgame. Ross is bad at first, but awesome later on. In other words, Garcia might not even be used. And then we also shouldn't forget Gilliam, who's easily superior to Garcia as well. Great durability > 1 Mov pre-promotion. Even if he's used, Garcia still fails to double a few enemies such as Iron Sword!Bonewalkers and Mogalls, so he'll eat a counter with WTD or against his Res, which isn't exactly something he'll be content with.

Except as I showed before, he's actually fairly decent. Better then some of the units that apparently WILL be coming, at least for now. He's definitely not the piece of crap you're pretending he is, and I think he's got a pretty good chance of being fielded. And Garcia can eat counter attacks until the cows come home, his Health is pretty damn cushy, especially this early.

And then his 20% AS growth doesn't help him, nor does him being practically supportless. All he has is good Atk and HP, which aren't going to make up for all his remaining failures. In other words, Garcia is a huge failure

Hahaha. Supportless? Who was it that argued that Garcia had tons of options for Supports, instead of Neimi? Oh, that's right, you. Again, Garcia can snag a Neimi B (which he would WANT and which gives nice bonuses), and at least SOMETHING with either Seth, Gilliam, or Ross (if Ross or Gilliam are played). Now, I will admit, Garcia can have doubling issues, but that is by no means a Death sentence. In fact, I'm going to say that he IS a lot like Dorcas. Average wise, they are practically identical. They have their differences, but the similarities are definitely there. But that doesn't matter anyway. What matters is the fact that Garcia, while not doubling often, will be dealing great damage per hit, and will still be fairly durable, due to huge HP. That doesn't make him a failure at all. In fact, he's quite a successful guy.

15/0 Garcia

Iron Axe: 23.1 Atk, 9.2 AS ,, 36.8 HP, 7.8 Def, 2.6 Res, 25.8 Avo

Steel Axe: 26.1 Atk, 8.2 AS ,, 23.8 Avo

Hand Axe: 22.1 Atk, 9.2 AS ,, 25.8 Avo

10/0 Gerik

Iron Sword: 19.0 Atk, 13.0 AS ,, 32.0 HP, 10.0 Def, 4.0 Res, 34.0 Avo

Steel Sword: 22.0 Atk

4~5 AS easily offsets 4 Atk since 9 AS doesn't double anything but Knights and that kind of enemies, while 2 Def, 1~2 Res and 8 Avo are a bit better than 4~5 HP, also since Garcia might get doubled from time to time. Garcia isn't quite winning here, and his worse growths won't help him at all. All Garcia has is a 20% Atk growth lead, which is nothing compared to Gerik's massive leads. Then take Gerik not being a failure into consideration and we see that Gerik will only become relatively better compared to Garcia. Let's pretend Gerik is 2 when he joins, while Garcia is 1 at the same point. 2 > 1. Now, since Gerik's becoming relatively better, it'll eventually be something like 4 > 1

Several problems here, one being the fact that Garcia could easily have gained more than 1 level per Chapter, so could well be higher than 15/0. But even without that, Garcia doesn't have his Supports with him (which by the way, he should have, at the very least his Neimi B [because Neimi is assumed to be played for this run, and this is about how SHE benefits the team], he should also have a little something more), plus you paint a pretty odd picture of things here.

With B Neimi, B Seth, Garcia is looking at this:

Iron Axe: 26.1 Atk, 9.2 AS ,, 36.8 HP, 8.8 Def, 2.6 Res, 45.8 Avo, 20.4 Crit

Steel Axe: 30.1 Atk, 8.2 AS ,, 43.8 Avo

Hand Axe: 26.1 Atk, 9.2 AS ,, 45.8 Avo

Now this is already looking a little bit different. For offense, Garcia now leads by 8 Atk, assuming they both wield their strongest weapon. And that can be a big difference. Garcia takes a massive lead vs heavily armored foes, and can double more than you seem to think. Garcia can double some of those soldiers as well as other low speed enemies, in addition to many units that are weighed down by heavy weapons (enemy Mages tend to fall into BOTH categories). Offense looks like much more of a tie right here. Oh wait, Dorcas also has a 20 percent chance of Crit. Nice. On Durability, I think that 4 HP and ~10 Avoid make up for a loss of 2 Defense.

So no, Gerik isn't going to beat Garcia at all. Perhaps I spoke to soon, but I'm pretty sure that Garcia is beating Gerik here. :D

Joshue vs Garcia comparisons

You know what? I just realized that I don't need to worry about that, since that was just one of my many backups...

True. Garcia isn't fielded. I just said he's a better option than Neimi. I said nothing more. Him being a better support for Gilliam doesn't mean he's suddenly a good unit.

Moulder obviously doesn't want Colm. Colm is everywhere but close to Moulder who's at the back, healing or killing things. Gilliam is a much better support for Moulder, since Gilliam has fairly low Mov and thus won't be able to move out far anyway, and will thus be close to Moulder.

Innes has many High/Top/Up Mid Tier character on his support list, so if one of them fails to fill one of their support slots, Innes has a good chance of taking it. L'Arachel is the only really bad unit on his list, but Gerik, Vanessa, Tana, Joshua and Eirika definitely ain't shit characters. Instead, they're pretty good.

Fun stuff there. I'm pretty sure Neimi gives better bonuses and is about the same Speed though. So I think Neimi is the better option, when she is being used.

Moulder might still want Colm for full Attack and Defense, but hey, even if Gilliam does take Moulder, he still should have room left. Franz has tons of other options, and options he prefers.

Now, here we get something funny that I was going to mention earlier. Innes's support list. Isn't it odd how Gerik gets very nice Supports with several units that aren't Innes? I mean, Tethys gives good bonuses, and she's faster, especially compared to Ephraim route Innes. Marisa gives similar bonuses and is similar Eirika's Route, but faster Ephraim's. There's Saleh who will give alright bonuses and may be faster, depending on route. Joshua too, and if he is fielded (you're arguing that he's an option for Innes, so I think you'd be looking at him too) he is much faster than Innes, and gives fair bonuses. Blah blah blah. Innes is hardly cemented a Gerik Support. Now, let's look at the rest of his list:

Now, many of these are slow (Ephraim's route especially). Vanessa gets much faster supports, that are MUCH better by taking the Double Anime sex that is Lute and Moulder. And if you're even thinking "BUT SHE'LL MOVE TOO FAST!!!", no. She'd move too fast for Innes in that case too. Tana isn't amazing, and herself has some much better options, as well as starting way too late on Ephraim's route. Joshua just isn't happening. Simply is not, it's slow as molasses, and Josh already has faster options, many which give the same bonuses. Not happening. L'Arachel, if played, has better options than Innes, although may wind up with him on Eirika's route. Ephraim route, I really doubt it. Ironically though, Innes might be able to get something with Ephraim Route Eireka, due to her not having built up as much. Maybe.

First of all, her being the worst means she has a low chance of being fielded. The only reason she's fielded is because we're debating her, but just forget this debate and just look at those stats. She's the worst. Why use her?

Second, if she is used, just look at how pathetic she is. We all know Ross sucks cock and balls earlygame. Neimi however, has only 2 Hit, 1 Crt and 1 HP over Ross, while he has 1 Def over her. And basically, that's 1 HP vs. 1, both of which matter nothing since everything two-rounds the two of them anyway (lolBrigands). Ross however, also has 1-2 range and he gains tons of experience, making him more useful than Neimi.

Whoops, she's worse than the worst unit D:

But if you really want the proof of her sucking as a unit... k

Neimi: 10 Atk, 6 AS ,, 17 HP, 3 Def

Random Brigand: 15 Atk, 6 AS ,, 23 HP, 3 Def

Random Archer: 12 Atk, 5 AS ,, 21 HP, 3 Def

Random Mercenary: 10 Atk, 9 AS ,, 20 HP, 4 Def

Random Thief: 8 Atk, 10 AS ,, 18 HP, 2 Def

Everything but the lone Mercenary two-rounds her, and the Mercenary needs only one more AS to actually be capable of two-rounding. Neimi however, three-rounds the Thief, four-rounds the Brigand, four-rounds Mercenary and three-rounds the Archer, which is massive suck.

So indeed, she sucks.

"lol u jsut d0n't no how 2 use her, lolololololol" :P

But seriously, there's a couple mistake in your theory in that first paragraph.

We're not debating to see if she's fielded, we're debating to see if she's BETTER THAN INNES. If she is better then him, then she is more likely to be fielded than him. Simple as that. I don't care much about the other characters, and how she compares to them. But I'll take you up on these stats to see what she does with the team.

You conveniently forget to mention that this chapter (her join chapter) is filled with walls and mazey things, meaning that she (and many of your characters, in fact) will rarely be exposed to more than one enemy at a time while still being able to attack fairly often. It's just how the level works. You also forgot to mention the instant Colm Support. Next chapter we have the hilarity that is the first monster chapter. And every unit is killing things there, including her.

5/0 Neimi, C Colm

Iron Bow: 12.8 Atk, 8.4 AS ,, 19.2 HP, 4.1 Def, 3.9 Res

Steel Bow: 15.8 Atk, 4.4 AS

Random Soldier: 14 Atk, 2 AS ,, 28 HP, 2 Def

Random Cavalier: 15 Atk, 7 AS ,, 27 HP, 8 Def

Random Fighter: 17 Atk, 6 AS ,, 27 HP, 3 Def

Random Mercenary: 12 Atk, 11 AS ,, 25 HP, 5 Def

Random Knight: 15 Atk, 1 AS ,, 24 HP, 11 Def

Random Archer: 13 Atk, 6 AS ,, 24 HP, 3 Def

Random Shaman: 14 Atk, 3 AS ,, 20 HP, 4 Def

Random Mage: 13 Atk, 6 AS ,, 19 HP, 3 Def

Random Bael: 13 Atk, 3 AS ,, 27 HP, 6 Def

Random Troubadour: 7 AS ,, 18 HP, 4 Def

Random Priest: 5 AS ,, 23 HP, 2 Def

Wow... Just wow...

Soldiers two-round her, Cavaliers two-round her, Fighters two-round her, Mercenaries can two-round her if she uses Steel OR they use Iron Blades (which exist at this point), Knights two-round her, Archers almost two-round her (the occasional 8 STR Archers two-rounds her), Shamans two-round her, Mages almost two-round her (again, t hey need only one more STR) and Baels also require only one more STR to two-round her. In other words, her durability fails hard. It can barely be worse.

She two-rounds Soldiers, four-rounds Cavaliers, three-rounds Fighters, four-rounds Mercenaries, five-rounds Knights, two-rounds Archers, one-rounds Shamans, two-rounds Mages and two-rounds Baels. Then she two-rounds Troubadours and Priests, which is rather sad, really. To make sure you got the point: her offense sucks.

So her offense sucks and her defense sucks. That doesn't quite improve her flexibility, nor does it improve her chances to grow quickly. She's very, very bad.

Weeheehee. Firstly, she's going to be getting more Supports over time, and I'm assuming you're talking about Chapter 6 here, in which case her having something more than C Colm is pretty reasonable. Then we talk about how this is one of the few levels so far where she'll actually be out in the open vs competent foes (you'll notice that all the other early levels seem to either have pretty easy to see chokepoints and "rooms", or have a lot of lollable enemies. She does not do well in Chapter 6, I will admit, but at the same time, your units will be progressing more slowly due to Fog of War, I would guess, so she doesn't feel the hurt too badly. As for offense, it's bad, but she can still kill things someone has weakened, or weaken something for someone. And again, she isn't a detriment to the team. She is still helping out. Neimi tagging along with the team is slightly easier then Neimi not existing. She doesn't require you to go that far out of your way to protect her, and she can deal some damage, and give some Supports. That beats not being there. Also, I should note that things tend to get better and better for Neimi from here on, which is why I assume you did not deign to post any statistics.

Then the next comparison would be her at 10/0 against ??/1 Innes, which Innes clearly wins. Ephraim Route?

18/0 Neimi, A Colm

Steel Bow: 23.6 Atk, 12.2 AS ,, 26.3 HP, 7.0 Def, 9.4 Res, 44.4 Avo

??/3 Innes

Steel Bow: 23.0 Atk, 15.0 AS ,, 31.0 HP, 10.0 Def, 9.0 Res, 44.0 Avo

A bit closer, but Innes still has 3 AS and some sweet concrete durability over her. Awesome. Neimi's still the inferior of the two.

Hahaha. No thanks, Neimi is going to be having fun with her new friend Garcia as well. That alone puts her on fairly even ground, as generally shown by the other comparisons.

Hmm, yeah. Eph Route.

20/7 Neimi, A Colm

Steel Bow: 30.2 Atk, 20.9 AS ,, 34.8 HP, 10.2 Def, 14.2 Res, 65.8 Avo

Steel Sword: 29.2 Atk, 19.9 AS ,, 63.8 Avo

??/7 Innes, B Gerik

Steel Bow: 24.6 Atk, 16.8 AS ,, 34.0 HP, 12.8 Def, 12.0 Res, 59.4 Avo

I must admit, Neimi is superior now. Though she only wins for a small part of the game. Innes was superior before he joined and when he joined. Neimi was only superior near the end of the game.

You still haven't given her Garcia. :D And she really is likely to have something like that. Really. Which means she's superior now, and a bit prior. She's also superior before Innes joined, as I said before.

Less attacks? You must mean more. At the front she'll get attacked more than at the back, and her crappy HP/Def make her a good target.

And if she's just going to use bows, that immediately eliminates the advantages Ranger gives. With bows, she's not going to move ahead to kill something. lolenemymagnet

Theoretically she would take more, but the opponent loves to attack whoever can't counter, and Swords will do a lot more countering.

And maybe you hit your head somewhere. Having the OPTION to use Bows allows her to switch to bows whenever the situation merits it. And you can still move ahead and use bows, it's just more situational than Swords, and Innes has a similar problem, except he doesn't even have the CHOICE of large movement or Swords. Pooor Innes.

Above comparisons disagree with you D:

Debate posts seem to always end with something like this, so I'll mix it up a little: SNAGGLEPUSSMCGRODEL'S!

With that said, I think if they were more RIGHT they would agree with me. :P

For the growth shit: whatever.

Your brought it up. :D

Ah well, after this I still feel like a bit of a fool for this whole forgetting to post the right stuff in the right place and what not fiasco, but I feel a bit better. At least we finished this off. I had fun, I hope you did too.

[Mekkah]

My vote would be for Tino. The only time I thought ZXValaRevan was really putting up a good fight with numbers and evidence was in the last post, and obviously that one has the least relevance. There were some errors made on both sides, but I think Tino did better overall.

There were some other things that were left unsaid which I would have brought up, such as

- Neimi giving support bonuses before Innes joins (which is a pretty long time)

- Innes being the only one able to use the Silver Bow for a pretty long time

- Possibility of using Iron weapons for Neimi to have her full AS

- Innes allowing you to sell the Orion's Bolt for 5k in earlygame moneys

[Defeatist Elitist]

- Neimi giving support bonuses before Innes joins (which is a pretty long time)

Actually, I did say that a couple times, but it was probably mixed in with the rest of my bullshit. :P

[Vykan12]

I’m not sure if it’s appropriate for me to critique people’s arguments this way or even at all (don’t you have to enlist to be a judge?) but here’s some random stuff I felt like pointing out.

From Taylor Swift’s side

I'm glad you brought this up. Garcia might not be Dorcas, but guess what? He's better than Ephraim route Gerik.

Proof plz?

As for her other options, Artur doesn't want Joshua, since Joshua is a worse unit than Garcia

Wth? Joshua is one of the game’s better units. Tino did, however, address this argument rather thoroughly in his next post.

Being the worst character, but still being competent (because she is) >>>>> not being there. And I think you know that, since all you did was compare her to the other characters at that time.

No, being the worst unit means that unit is most likely hurting team efficiency. Even if Neimi might not be costing you turns, she’s taking up a spot another unit could use better and thus allow a slightly easier completion of the game. Plus I would contend that her not being able to counter in addition to being statistically inferior to everyone else is in fact slowing you down because of the protection/babying she needs.

You conveniently forget to mention that this chapter (her join chapter) is filled with walls and mazey things, meaning that she (and many of your characters, in fact) will rarely be exposed to more than one enemy at a time while still being able to attack fairly often.

Not needing to use walls and other enemy impediments > needing them. Working around Neimi’s suck doesn’t make it go away. Is Garcia suddenly amazing on player phase if Tethys dances him every turn?

As for offense, it's bad, but she can still kill things someone has weakened, or weaken something for someone.

Anyone can do that and obviously getting kills normally > needing them fed to you. Do you think someone like 4 move Amelia is not a hindrance to efficiency if we completely cater to her getting kills?

She is still helping out.

Helping out has no intrinsic value, as you could use another unit to help out better, or not replace her slot and thus allow everyone else to gain slightly more exp per chapter.

From Tino’s side

Ancient Horrors is pretty much the only one in which he (Garcia)'ll be one-rounding, and that's so incredibly easy that any unit can do it.

What makes you think that? Enemy stat growth in this game is pathetic, the enemies in the desert chapter have like +1-2 stats > those from 5-6 chapters earlier, so Garcia’s bound to be able to double some things, especially as a hero. Moreover, he’ll have enough ATT to 1HKO some stuff, then there’s the existence of crit rates, loldiers, brave weapons, etc to help him out. I dunno, I just get the impression you’re basing Garcia’s performance on your PE rather than judging him a bit more objectively.

Neimi, though she indeed sucks, actually has a decent endgame with her horse and all that, while Garcia isn't great when he joins, and is tually pretty bad endgame. Ross is bad at first, but awesome later on.

Now I can’t help but feel as though you consider units to be worth using if they have “endgame potential” seeing as what matters is how a unit performs over time and there needs to be a greater reason to tolerate a unit’s suck. Not only that, you don’t really show whether Garcia’s endgame is bad or not or whether Ross is actually superior overall.

4~5 AS easily offsets 4 Atk since 9 AS doesn't double anything but Knights and that kind of enemies, while 2 Def, 1~2 Res and 8 Avo are a bit better than 4~5 HP, also since Garcia might get doubled from time to time. Garcia isn't quite winning here, and his worse growths won't help him at all. All Garcia has is a 20% Atk growth lead, which is nothing compared to Gerik's massive leads. Then take Gerik not being a failure into consideration and we see that Gerik will only become relatively better compared to Garcia.

The last sentence is meaningless since it has nothing to do with the comparison nor does it say anything precise. It’s as though you saying “this is why Garcia fails and Gerik doesn’t” and then say “in addition, Gerik doesn’t fail”.

Let's pretend Gerik is 2 when he joins, while Garcia is 1 at the same point. 2 > 1. Now, since Gerik's becoming relatively better, it'll eventually be something like 4 > 1

I dunno what the point of this is. Saying Gerik is 2 while Garcia is 1 is implying that Gerik is twice as good as Garcia, and will then become 4 times as good, which is quite the exaggeration. You could’ve just made your point by comparing their growths or directly comparing them later on.

============================================

So overall, I think Tino did a slightly better job, mostly for the reasons Mekkah already stated. On a side note, all that talk about supports kinda gets aggravating to read, particularly the “Garcia is fielded” “no he isn’t” “yuh huh” business.

[Tino]

What makes you think that? Enemy stat growth in this game is pathetic, the enemies in the desert chapter have like +1-2 stats > those from 5-6 chapters earlier, so Garcia’s bound to be able to double some things, especially as a hero. Moreover, he’ll have enough ATT to 1HKO some stuff, then there’s the existence of crit rates, loldiers, brave weapons, etc to help him out. I dunno, I just get the impression you’re basing Garcia’s performance on your PE rather than judging him a bit more objectively.

What makes me think that is the fact that Ancient of Horrors has tons of phail AS enemies, while the other enemies in other chapters generally have more AS, due to not being a phail monster or Knight. Plus, the only enemies with a lower AS growth than Garcia are Generals, Male Great Knights, Mealduins and Entombeds. All other enemies have equal or higher growths, which means he won't be doubling more. Rather, he'll be doubling less. Fuck, he might even start getting doubled later in the game by some enemies.

Now I can’t help but feel as though you consider units to be worth using if they have “endgame potential” seeing as what matters is how a unit performs over time and there needs to be a greater reason to tolerate a unit’s suck. Not only that, you don’t really show whether Garcia’s endgame is bad or not or whether Ross is actually superior overall.

You got the wrong impression. What I was saying is that Neimi's average performance over the course of the entire game is better than Garcia's, which means she has a higher probability of being played; due to being better on average.

The last sentence is meaningless since it has nothing to do with the comparison nor does it say anything precise. It’s as though you saying “this is why Garcia fails and Gerik doesn’t” and then say “in addition, Gerik doesn’t fail”.

I know... And in my Dorcas vs. Raven debate in this section I said a similar thing but there I actually DID mention that it didn't matter, since it has no effect on the comparison at hand. I must've forgotten to mention that here XD

I dunno what the point of this is. Saying Gerik is 2 while Garcia is 1 is implying that Gerik is twice as good as Garcia, and will then become 4 times as good, which is quite the exaggeration. You could’ve just made your point by comparing their growths or directly comparing them later on.

Mainly another way of saying it, and to cause a bit of confusion (though I don't think it worked :P)

On a side note, all that talk about supports kinda gets aggravating to read, particularly the “Garcia is fielded” “no he isn’t” “yuh huh” business.

I agree. But yeah, that sometimes happens, no matter how much I hate it myself as well.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Proof plz?

Wth? Joshua is one of the game’s better units. Tino did, however, address this argument rather thoroughly in his next post.

I know, I know. I kind of fucked up here and forgot to put my, heh, "proof" in the post.

No, being the worst unit means that unit is most likely hurting team efficiency. Even if Neimi might not be costing you turns, she’s taking up a spot another unit could use better and thus allow a slightly easier completion of the game. Plus I would contend that her not being able to counter in addition to being statistically inferior to everyone else is in fact slowing you down because of the protection/babying she needs.

...

And? I mean, as long as I can argue it in a way that stops him from properly disputing it, it doesn't matter if I pulled it out of my ass.

I'm also going to say that Worst won't ALWAYS mean being a hindrance to the team, although in this case it does. I know that Neimi really does hurt the team early game, but I'm not going to ADMIT that in a Debate, am I? :D

Not needing to use walls and other enemy impediments > needing them. Working around Neimi’s suck doesn’t make it go away. Is Garcia suddenly amazing on player phase if Tethys dances him every turn?

I had the last post. And I was getting pretty soundly thrashed. Of course I'm going to pull some shit out. I know that not needing walls > needing them. Of course, needing walls doesn't automatically make you useless, just WORSE than someone who doesn't.

Anyone can do that and obviously getting kills normally > needing them fed to you. Do you think someone like 4 move Amelia is not a hindrance to efficiency if we completely cater to her getting kills?

Yes, yes. Last post. He can't respond. It's worth less, so I try to pack in as much bullshit as I can, since he can't reply to it.

Helping out has no intrinsic value, as you could use another unit to help out better, or not replace her slot and thus allow everyone else to gain slightly more exp per chapter.

Well, partly see above, and as I said, all I was trying to prove was that her being there > her being an empty slot. Or, sorry, I was trying to make that seem like it was legitimate and then prove that. :D