OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, smash will absolutely abhor the fact that I'm thinking of writing up a Sanaki > Lehran arguement.

Smash's tier list on Gamefaqs on 10/3/2009 5:37:46 AM

(edit: I've changed my mind. I'm not dirtying this tier list with that list. I'll leave the link up, though. Suffice it to say, Lehran is way way higher than Sanaki on Smash's list. Also, that is the most recent version I found.)

Yeah, I'd have to say he won't like the idea. (also, man, there are so many things wrong with that list.)

@nflchamp: Please remove the stain from this tier list. I beg of you. (edit #lots: thank you.)

And what is the use for his list? Aside from basically stating: This is what smash thinks.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[nflchamp]

And what is the use for his list? Aside from basically stating: This is what smash thinks.

That is the use for his list, I just hadn't realized it was actually useful before.

[tehnikhil]

I would actually say the idea of negative utility isn't flawed.

Lets say Snacky has X utility, while Renning has 2.5x (guessing he may be that much more useful)

The equation is Net Usefulness=Usefulness-Oppurtunity cost.

Lets say renning has X oppurtunity cost as he may be about that much worse than some trained pallies.

So, Renning's net usefulness is 2.5x-x=1.5x

Snacky's net usefulness is x-0=x

Therefore, Renning>Sanaki.

Of course, I was just pulling those numbers out of nowhere, but isn't that kinda how tier lists work?

Edit: Oh, and how about Pelleas vs Astrid (T)? They both kinda suck, but pelleas is doing more damage to enemies when he is joining. Their levels probably won't be that different since Astrid has bad availibility. Plus, Pelleas is forced on the Hawk route.

Edited November 9, 2009 by tehnikhil

[Narga_Rocks]

I would actually say the idea of negative utility isn't flawed.

Lets say Snacky has X utility, while Renning has 2.5x (guessing he may be that much more useful)

The equation is Net Usefulness=Usefulness-Oppurtunity cost.

Lets say renning has X oppurtunity cost as he may be about that much worse than some trained pallies.

So, Renning's net usefulness is 2.5x-x=1.5x

Snacky's net usefulness is x-0=x

Therefore, Renning>Sanaki.

Of course, I was just pulling those numbers out of nowhere, but isn't that kinda how tier lists work?

Edit: Oh, and how about Pelleas vs Astrid (T)? They both kinda suck, but pelleas is doing more damage to enemies when he is joining. Their levels probably won't be that different since Astrid has bad availibility. Plus, Pelleas is forced on the Hawk route.

Except if Renning is inferior to the other options, then his utility is x and their utility is y. y>x. So since opportunity cost is the best alternative forgone, economic profit is then x-y, which is < 0. Sanaki can't possibly go below 0 since she has free deployment. Since U(Sanaki) >= 0 > U(Renning), U(Sanaki) > U(Renning) (by the transitive property).

Aside:

Also, Renning could be > all the other pallies (though he isn't) and it wouldn't matter as long as there are at least 10 units of any kind that are clearly better for going to 4-E. So you didn't need to compare him to other pallies.

(edit, maybe I shouldn't have used U(). Maybe P(), or EP(). Oh well.)

Edited November 9, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[nflchamp]

You basically understand, tehnikhil. Negative utility exists, it's just what we define to be "negative utility." Both of your 'equations' are correct (to an extent). In fact, both of your 'equations' are basically the same thing

So, Renning's net usefulness is 2.5x-x=1.5x

'X' wouldn't be Sanaki's usefulness if we're using it for determining +/- utility, it'd have to be some arbitrary 'X' level of performance that everyone was judged againt (which, I guess, could be Sanaki's usefulness if we wanted it to be). I don't like this idea, though, as "'X' level of performance" is vague and is easily moved about.

Snacky's net usefulness is x-0=x

The only difference here is that there is no "'X' level of performance" being subtracted from the units initial usefulness. I would think of this as the character's usefulness against an empty character slot. + utility comes from being better than an empty slot and - utility comes from being worse. I like this idea a lot more, as everyone can be compared against an empty slot and the usefulness of an empty slot can't change.

What most people don't realize (or what causes most people confusion) is that all this "+/- utility" stuff doesn't represent a specific place within a tier list and only matters because units don't always exist in the exact same chapters. When we tier we measure the difference in utility between characters. Anyone who has a positive difference in utility against another character is above that character and vice versa. If all characters were in every chapter, then we'd just go chapter by chapter and compare the difference in utility of the characters and not give a hoot about +/- utility. (In fact, this is what we do do in direct comparisons.) Since that isn't the case, we have to make the difference between existing and not existing.

To sum it up; no matter where +/- utility is placed, what matters is that it is consistent and successfully represents the difference between existing and not existing.

Edit: Since no one has replied and I have time. (And again for grammar)

Here's the problem with smash's list, as I see it.

Smash sets average unit X's performance as the standard within a chapter. He then compares everyone in the chapter against X performance. For example:

Chapter 1-4 (Eddie)

Eddie, in comparison to X, only has a usefulness of, say, .3X. As such Eddie's utility is .3X - X = -.7X

Now, the problem arises when we compare him to someone not participating in the chapter with him. Let's take Ike as an example. In smash's viewpoint:

Chapter 1-4 (Ike)

Ike isn't in the chapter, so his utility is 0.

Now, this may seem like a true statement, but, as I said earlier, when measuring utility you have to be consistent from where you measure. For example, Ike should go like this:

Chapter 1-4 (Ike)

Ike, who isn't in the chapter, in comparison to X, has a usefulness 0. As such Ike's utility is 0 - X = -X

You can see the difference. Because Ike isn't in the chapter he can't perform and, as such, can't perform as well as average unit X. Therefore, Ike has negative utility in 1-4.

Now, I know what you all are thinking; under this system there is no way for Eddie to be worse in 1-4 than Ike, simply because Eddie exists. This simply isn't true. X is an arbitrarily set value and, as such, is as arbitrary distance above a "0 performance." For Eddie to be worse than Ike, he'd simply have to be bad enough to move past this "0 performance." For example, let's take Meg in 1-4:

Chapter 1-4 (Meg)

Meg, in comparison to X, has a usefulness of -.2X. As such Meg's utility is -.2X - X = -1.2X

As you can see, Meg in this example is in fact worse in this chapter than Ike, who doesn't exist.

So, to bring this back to smash's list and its problems, consistency is simply the key. Smash likes to say existing in a chapter means you have to perform to a certain level to have + utility, but if you don't exist in the chapter you have 0 utility. As I've shown, this simply isn't the case.

Edited November 10, 2009 by nflchamp

[Florete]

Is this all saying Sanaki should move up? I'm really having a hard time seeing Lehran > Sanaki. He might be kinda cool in his one map, but it's only that: one map. Sanaki could just take potshots when safe and hide behind the walls your Heron is using or something so she never actually becomes a burden and she'd probably work up more positive utility than Lehran ever could, even if she dies along the way (It's unlikely her tomes will be wanted by anyone else and she shouldn't have any skills).

In fact, I'm thinking she could go just under Bastian. She's probably > Kurth since his offense sucks, his durability is not that great anyway, and Night Tide is not particularly useful.

[nflchamp]

No, there isn't a formal argument here that Sanaki > Lehran. But, yeah, the basic gist of the argument is that Sanaki's durability isn't a big enough factor that it prevents her high powered potshots from racking up enough positive utility to be better than Lehran.

I don't know how high I'd argue her, but at least above Gareth.

[Candlejack]

If you need to put a Heron in front of Sanaki to protect her, you know she has problems.

[nflchamp]

If you need to put a Heron in front of Sanaki to protect her, you know she has problems.

The point was that she can use the same walls the heron is using (aka: the durable people) not that she should be walled by a heron.

[Candlejack]

Too bad Herons have better durability.

[Florete]

Too bad Herons have better durability.

Leanne: 25 HP, 2->4 Def, 6->12 Spd

Sanaki: 28 HP, 10 Def, 23 Spd

Lolwut.

[Candlejack]

You get Leanne in 2P.

You get Sanaki in 4P.

That's a big chapter difference. And Leanne gets three extra chapters of use and gets all of Part 4. Sanaki only gets lol3 chapters.

I also like how you didn't even factor growths and averages as well.

EDIT: And Reyson has better durability than Sanaki. rofl

Edited November 10, 2009 by Sedgar the Hero

[Florete]

You get Leanne in 2P.

You get Sanaki in 4P.

That's a big chapter difference. And Leanne gets three extra chapters of use and gets all of Part 4. Sanaki only gets lol3 chapters.

Irrelevant. I'm not saying Sanaki > Leanne here.

I also like how you didn't even factor growths and averages as well.

Okay, I'll give Leanne 5 levels (More than she would ever get in her 4 maps).

Now she's: 28 HP, 2.5->4/6 Def, 7->14 Spd

Sanaki still wins.

EDIT: And Reyson has better durability than Sanaki. rofl

He does, but he is only one of three.

[Shadow Mir]

You get Leanne in 2P.

You get Sanaki in 4P.

That's a big chapter difference. And Leanne gets three extra chapters of use and gets all of Part 4. Sanaki only gets lol3 chapters.

I also like how you didn't even factor growths and averages as well.

EDIT: And Reyson has better durability than Sanaki. rofl

Too bad that it'll be a cold day in hell before Leanne can even claim to have durability that's around Sanaki's level. Also, growths aren't saving Leanne's abysmal durability. In addition, bows and wind magic exist.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Richter Renard

[Candlejack]

I'm saying if you have less durability than a base heron you get ten chapters before you, you know you suck royally in that department.

She basically takes potshots and can't do anything else. She can't double, GETS doubled (If she gets past the first hit), etc.

And Leanne's utility time raises her stats, and she's got many more chapters than Suckdiki to do so. Same with Rafiel, only he gets more time than Leanne. Oh, and Rafiel has the same base STR as Sanaki untransformed. And is close to Sanaki's base DEF.

[Florete]

I'm saying if you have less durability than a base heron you get ten chapters before you, you know you suck royally in that department.

She basically takes potshots and can't do anything else. She can't double, GETS doubled (If she gets past the first hit), etc.

New and interesting information.

Wait, no it isn't, I know all of this. So does the rest of the fandom. Except the getting doubled part, which she can avoid if she isn't weighed down.

And Leanne's utility time raises her stats, and she's got many more chapters than Suckdiki to do so.

Irrelevant. I'm not saying Sanaki > Leanne here.

Same with Rafiel, only he gets more time than Leanne.

So 2>4 now?

And is close to Sanaki's base DEF.

Rafiel's base Def: 3->6

Sanaki's: 10

lolwut.

[Shadow Mir]

I'm saying if you have less durability than a base heron you get ten chapters before you, you know you suck royally in that department.

She basically takes potshots and can't do anything else. She can't double, GETS doubled (If she gets past the first hit), etc.

And Leanne's utility time raises her stats, and she's got many more chapters than Suckdiki to do so. Same with Rafiel, only he gets more time than Leanne. Oh, and Rafiel has the same base STR as Sanaki untransformed. And is close to Sanaki's base DEF.

Too bad that even with those extra maps, it's unlikely (read: impossible) that Leanne will ever catch up to Sanaki in durability. Also, lolwut at the bold. Rafiel only gets 2 chapters before part 4. At any rate, we're not arguing Sanaki > Leanne.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Richter Renard

[Candlejack]

I'm saying if you have less durability than a base heron you get ten chapters before you, you know you suck royally in that department.

She basically takes potshots and can't do anything else. She can't double, GETS doubled (If she gets past the first hit), etc.

New and interesting information.

Wait, no it isn't, I know all of this. So does the rest of the fandom. Except the getting doubled part, which she can avoid if she isn't weighed down.

And Leanne's utility time raises her stats, and she's got many more chapters than Suckdiki to do so.

Irrelevant. I'm not saying Sanaki > Leanne here.

Same with Rafiel, only he gets more time than Leanne.

So 2>4 now?

And is close to Sanaki's base DEF.

Rafiel's base Def: 3->6

Sanaki's: 10

lolwut.

1. Sanaki gets weighed down by everything since her base STR is lolterrible at 2. SHE'S WEIGHED DOWN BY CYMBELINE FOR CHRIST SAKE.

2. Shit. Why did I read Rafiel's base as 8. Yeah, my bad.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm saying if you have less durability than a base heron you get ten chapters before you, you know you suck royally in that department.

She basically takes potshots and can't do anything else. She can't double, GETS doubled (If she gets past the first hit), etc.

And Leanne's utility time raises her stats, and she's got many more chapters than Suckdiki to do so. Same with Rafiel, only he gets more time than Leanne. Oh, and Rafiel has the same base STR as Sanaki untransformed. And is close to Sanaki's base DEF.

@bold: Wow. Next time actually look into things properly, would ya?

Here is what happens when a person actually analyzes the numbers

You might notice that she mostly doesn't get doubled, and actually doesn't get ORKOd by anywhere near as much as you seem to imply.

And did you even bother to look at the growths on the herons or the number of turns in their chapters and remember they get 10 exp per turn and so aren't getting more than 4 levels, probably less? Sanaki is actually quite passable in 4-P seeing how she is 2RKOd by most of the map. With low paladin AS, she can even use Cymbeline and her 20 AS doesn't even get doubled (warriors, etc, still do, but you can use something else when they are near). Also, she can hide in 4-P and 4-E-2 and still have 4-3 and 4-E-1 and 4-E-3 and 4-E-4 where she can rack up much positive utility with little effort in keeping her alive. Utility from potshots >> effort of maintaining life in those 4 chapters.

And what does it even matter about their base str? I could point out her magic >>>> Rafiel's magic, only we don't care about Rafiel's magic, either. In fact, he might be more helpful if he had her magic stat since then he'd have some actual healing utility. Wow. If Sanaki was a heron she'd be a better heron than Rafiel. If Rafiel was a sage he'd be a worse sage than Sanaki. Except that doesn't matter either.

What matters is what she can do with the hand dealt to her. For a player acting with efficiency in mind, she actually does more for us than Lehran.

I'm saying if you have less durability than a base heron you get ten chapters before you, you know you suck royally in that department.

She basically takes potshots and can't do anything else. She can't double, GETS doubled (If she gets past the first hit), etc.

New and interesting information.

Wait, no it isn't, I know all of this. So does the rest of the fandom. Except the getting doubled part, which she can avoid if she isn't weighed down.

And Leanne's utility time raises her stats, and she's got many more chapters than Suckdiki to do so.

Irrelevant. I'm not saying Sanaki > Leanne here.

Same with Rafiel, only he gets more time than Leanne.

So 2>4 now?

And is close to Sanaki's base DEF.

Rafiel's base Def: 3->6

Sanaki's: 10

lolwut.

1. Sanaki gets weighed down by everything since her base STR is lolterrible at 2. SHE'S WEIGHED DOWN BY CYMBELINE FOR CHRIST SAKE.

2. Shit. Why did I read Rafiel's base as 8. Yeah, my bad.

@bold:

And what does that matter? She is still rather useful with wind. Or better yet a forged fire with -1 wt. Her str means balls as long as she can avoid the double, and she can. Against almost every single enemy she'll face. Why do you mention something that isn't relevant. Why do you mention it in caps? Why do you act like it is some deal breaker? Did you even bother to analyze what her 20 AS with Cymbeline weighing her down actually means?

Edited November 10, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

1. Sanaki gets weighed down by everything since her base STR is lolterrible at 2. SHE'S WEIGHED DOWN BY CYMBELINE FOR CHRIST SAKE.

Light and Wind do not weigh her down. She won't be using them most likely, but it's worth mentioning and proves she doesn't get weighed down by enemies.

Besides, Cymbeline brings her to 20 AS, and very few 4-P enemies reach 24 AS (literally only 2 or 3), so she still isn't getting doubled. It doesn't matter though, since the guys that double her are the guys that OHKO her anyway.

Wait, forgot the late SM's. They double as well. It doesn't change the fact that she is more durable than Leanne and Rafiel.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Since Boyd's getting a speed transfer, I think he ought to move up.

For example, in just 2 levels, he'll have 51-52 hp, 25 str, 1 mag, 21 skl, 21 spd, 14 lck, 16 def, 8 res.

Compare to base Titania: 36 hp, 25 str, 22 skl, 21 spd, 19 lck, 20 def, 14 res.

Their offense is practically the same. On defense, Boyd has 15-16 hp vs 4 def and 6 res, so that's also close.

At this point, the reasoning behind giving the speedwing to Titania can be applied to Boyd's case, moreso considering in a transfer run, Titania wouldn't need the speedwing anyway.

[Narga_Rocks]

Since Boyd's getting a speed transfer, I think he ought to move up.

For example, in just 2 levels, he'll have 51-52 hp, 25 str, 1 mag, 21 skl, 21 spd, 14 lck, 16 def, 8 res.

Compare to base Titania: 36 hp, 25 str, 22 skl, 21 spd, 19 lck, 20 def, 14 res.

Their offense is practically the same. On defense, Boyd has 15-16 hp vs 4 def and 6 res, so that's also close.

At this point, the reasoning behind giving the speedwing to Titania can be applied to Boyd's case, moreso considering in a transfer run, Titania wouldn't need the speedwing anyway.

Our main concern wing-wise is that Transfer characters are generally compared in a void (or more precisely, the transfer character in question is the only transfer character on its team). So Titania (T) doesn't exist. The 2 speedwings basically have 3 strong candidates: Boyd(T), Haar, and Titania. There are some arguments both ways about which way to go on this one. If he doesn't get winged, he is only at 20 AS with a 45% spd growth. He needs that wing, and I'm not quite certain where we stand on that. But Boyd (T) is definitely >> Boyd (N). HP should cap by level 12, str by level 17, though you could pull 15 or so with reasonable (ie: slowplaying) bexp use. Unfortunately, spd is tied for 3rd while bexping str, and then after str caps it is tied for 2nd but only .05 higher than 4th. (45% compared to 40%).

If he gets that wing he's good to go, though. Soon enough, anyway. At the very least it should be taken into consideration.

So, he has climbed to > Oscar over the past week or so, and I think wing consideration was part of that. But without that wing, I think > Nephenee(N) remains out of reach. Jill might be possible, though. And Laura is a healer making it complicated.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

So, he has climbed to > Oscar over the past week or so, and I think wing consideration was part of that. But without that wing, I think > Nephenee(N) remains out of reach. Jill might be possible, though. And Laura is a healer making it complicated.

Did he even rise at all after getting the speed transfer? I'm pretty sure he was already there.

If Boyd gets the speedwing, he is most definitely going to be in high tier. Of course, there is competition, but Boyd has certain advantages that will give him good claims to one.

Titania's got a pony, but Boyd is going to win out statistically in the end with a nice durability and offense win down the road. For example, with a speedwing at 20/20/5 with an A support and Urvan, Boyd ORKOs every general in 4-E-1.

At the very least, he should be able to get the 3-9 wing.

The simple possibility that he can grab one of the first two speedwings and his 17-18 hp lead should be enough to put him over Nephenee, IMO.

[Narga_Rocks]

So, he has climbed to > Oscar over the past week or so, and I think wing consideration was part of that. But without that wing, I think > Nephenee(N) remains out of reach. Jill might be possible, though. And Laura is a healer making it complicated.

Did he even rise at all after getting the speed transfer? I'm pretty sure he was already there.

If Boyd gets the speedwing, he is most definitely going to be in high tier. Of course, there is competition, but Boyd has certain advantages that will give him good claims to one.

Titania's got a pony, but Boyd is going to win out statistically in the end with a nice durability and offense win down the road. For example, with a speedwing at 20/20/5 with an A support and Urvan, Boyd ORKOs every general in 4-E-1.

At the very least, he should be able to get the 3-9 wing.

The simple possibility that he can grab one of the first two speedwings and his 17-18 hp lead should be enough to put him over Nephenee, IMO.

He did go above Oscar thanks to the speed transfer. I think originally Red Fox may not have been giving him spd on his transfer and he may have even been under Mordy.

I'm still not sure on giving out the 3-9 wing. Let's face it, almost anybody can take a crown in 3-11 (there are enough) and the wing and start ORKOing, at least for a little while. I suppose it is possible it lasts longer with Boyd(T), though. If so, he may be able to get it for himself.

Still, Neph at least doubles for a while where Boyd isn't. Even with the transfer, Boyd needs 4 or 5 levels just to hit 22 AS without an early wing.

However, once he starts doubling he is basically a killface, and with 24 str at base and a 65% growth and a base level of --/8 he's going to raise that pretty quickly. He should eventually ORKO Generals even in part 3, I hope. 16 mt steel forge. A support using fire potentially in 3-4 with Oscar (3-5 at the latest), or 3-7 with someone else. That's already 42 mt. Generals in 3-5 need 45 mt to ORKO. He gets that in 5 levels. 27.25 str and +2 +16 = 45. Easily ORKOs generals in 3-5. Of course, those 5 levels only get him 22.25 AS. Some of those generals have 19 AS. Another level and he may have 23 AS, I suppose. 3-10 generals only need 47 mt, so that's just 29 str for him. Level 16, or 8 levels off base. Easy. 49 mt needed at the most durable in 3-11, though, and that's 5 of 8. 30 str and 16 mt and a non fire/water/dark support doesn't cut it. 30 str and support does cover the other 3, and 29 str actually gets one of them. Still, he may promote during that chapter. 4-1 Generals need 51 mt at the most. Silver Poleaxe does the trick, of course. Some miss chance, though. The steel forge and support means he needs 33 str. 18/2 or 18/3. (or 20/2, 20/3). 4-4 Generals have silver axe forge possible, so 19 mt weapon. The best needs 58 mt to ORKO. 37 str. 18/9. Aside from 5 generals, though, 55 mt is needed. That's only 34 str, or 18/4 or so. 2 of the 5 need 35 str, 2 of the 5 need 36 str. 18/6 for 35 and 18/7 or 18/8 for 36 str.

So he's ORKOing a lot of generals in part 4 with cheap axes.

Also, you need 49 mt for the toughest halbs and warriors (except 2 warriors). A forged Hand Axe can have 14 mt. He needs a mere 33 str with his support active to ORKO them if he has the speed. That's in 4-4! Easy. Aside from the 2 super warriors, 31 AS needed. With the wing he can cap tier 2 speed. That leaves him 4-1 to get 2 speed to double. 20/5 or 20/6 shouldn't be too hard to achieve by the end of 4-1. If he goes with a slightly early crown and is level 18 to start 3-11, he needs 18/6 or 18/7. Should still have 31 AS not long into 4-4.

In 4-E-1, it is possible there is a 33 def guy. 59 mt needed to ORKO. With Urvan and his support this is disgustingly easy. 35 str. He probably had that not far into 4-4. Possibly at the start of 4-4. He might even have the str to pull this off with a silver forge. 38 str. 18/10 or 18/11. In fact, he probably does have it. Who needs Urvan? Anyway, Hammer at 32 str with no support yields 71 mt, so while he ORKOs generals on cover with it, so do most Hammer users.

Assuming capped str by dragons:

64 mt with Urvan and support. 53 mt with Brave Axe and support.

This, by the way, is more than Zihark is likely to have with a wyrmslayer and its effective damage. (Zihark probably supports thunder or earth and is probably not yet 20/15. Well, 20/14 might be able to pull off 31 str. 29.5 str. You can get +1.05 by capping tier 2. So 30.55. Then if he caps skl and spd at 20/13 you can get a bexp level. Str is tied for 3rd so it is bound to be a higher probability than 35%, so maybe 30.8 or something.

Anyway, Urvan against a 77hp/38def Red Dragon (the toughest of them all) does 52 damage. Brave Axe does 60 damage. His hand axe forge has 56 mt and does 36 damage. Against the 36 def Reds, he does 40 damage with his Hand Axe and actually manages a 2RKO with a 1-2 range weapon. How many can say that?

Assuming a wing before promotion, he needs 20/12 or 20/13 to get 34 AS, which should be doable. Assuming a wing after promotion and not an early promotion, he needs 20/11 or 20/12. Assuming promotion at level 18, he needs 18/13 or 18/14. Whichever of those is the case, doubling spirits should be easy.

54 mt without support ORKOs thunder/wind on cover(1) tiles. With support the 56 mt ORKOs fire on cover(1). Urvan ORKOs on cover (2) tiles without support. His silver forge ORKOs wind/thunder on cover(2) without support, fire with.

Brave + Nasir + support ORKOs auras. Offensively, he's basically better than Royals here.

In all, he has a period of not doubling, and without the wing in 3-2 I don't see how high is justified. But he certainly has a claim to rise. > Neph(N) might be justified on strength of the 3-9 wing alone, rather than the early one.

[Florete]

Did he even rise at all after getting the speed transfer? I'm pretty sure he was already there.

He went above Oscar. I know because I argued him there.

I've got to agree with WoMC here. The massive raep Boyd can become with a Wing simply can't be overlooked (I know you saw it, Narga).

Still, Neph at least doubles for a while where Boyd isn't. Even with the transfer, Boyd needs 4 or 5 levels just to hit 22 AS without an early wing.

I haven't checked the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Nephenee doing about the same or just a little more damage in two hits than Boyd does in one. Boyd (T) > Neph and then even higher needs serious consideration.

Also, post #4,000. (For the topic, my own postcount is way higher)

Edited November 12, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire