Levin VS MightyZagaro part 2

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Good luck. You start it this time, BB.

[Dat Nick]

Yeah, I'm good now. I'm golden.

Shiida's early jointime doesn't benefit her that much, since all she's getting is a level lead that lets her fail in stats compared to Vyland LESS.

Wing spear can eff itself. It's next to pointless on NM. All it does is let Shiida kill armors. Which anybody can do anyway. Well, anybody who isn't CAPTAIN GORDIN, DEFENDER OF EARTH.

Anyway...Vyland is winning stats by a lot over Shiida. He doesn't double right away, but once he does, he's totally smoking her, and Flight's not saving that. The higher their levels get, the more Vyland wins durability, and he'll probably have won for quite a bit while they're both unpromoted. Shiida can kill armors, sure, but you can toss an Armorslayer to Vyland and expect him to do the same thing. After all, what good is it doing Ogma and the cavs if they're smoking armors with Steel? Never mind that once Vyland hits the doubling point, he'll stay there, and will double all the way up to Endgame. It doesn't really take him that long, either. He starts at a low level, and has a nice speed growth. Generally, he's far better than Shiida, for longer. And he's also getting a master seal before she is, since Shiida has to wait behind so many other characters for a seal, Vyland will have hit 20 by then, so then she'll be competing with him. He's going to be doubling everything on the map by now, so Shiida's AS lead is irrelevant, and he wins everything else significantly. He's going to squeeze an ever so slight level lead on her by the time she does promote, so she's going to lose to Vyland even MORE.

Mage, basically Shiida's only viable reclass option, just lets Vyland own her harder. Now Vyland wins durability AND move. And offense, too, since a Javelin is more than sufficent to kill lolNM enemies. You could forge the Javelin to be WEAKER and HEAVIER with LOWER HIT and Vyland would still probably be doing fine. Shiida's only real possible benefit is Staves, but since she wasn't a Curate like Merric, she's going to struggle in the Staff level department, not nearly enough to offset Vyland's huge statistical win.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Wow... NM enemies seriously fail. Alright, let's see what I can nitpick here... (but damn, these NM enemies seriously fail).

Shiida's early jointime doesn't benefit her that much, since all she's getting is a level lead that lets her fail in stats compared to Vyland LESS.

"much" would depend on some1's opinion. She's getting a level lead like you said AND WEXP. This level lead isn't as insignificant as you think, sure it's not gonna generate much growth other than with her SPD but it certainly helps because you see, Shiida could promote at level 10 and this won't damage her offense or defense that much since he's hardly getting anything anyway.

Wing spear can eff itself. It's next to pointless on NM. All it does is let Shiida kill armors. Which anybody can do anyway. Well, anybody who isn't CAPTAIN GORDIN, DEFENDER OF EARTH.

Normally yeah but there's actually more to it than that. It pretty much makes it so that Shiida doesn't need to get STR ever and could e leveled late. Example, I could have her as a level 1 Peg Knight and she'll still 1 round the Cavaliers in chapter 18 with it. For the Paladins, she'd just 2-4 SPD depending on the weapon that they're carrying and this obtainable in just a few level ups... and yes she's 1 rounding the Paladins since they have around 28 HP and 9-10 DEF. Base stat Shiida with Wing Spear would score about 18-19 Damage per hit with Wing Spear and this is without WTA. Overkill basically but still, it just means Shiida needs little to no level ups to kill midgame and lategame enemies. Vyland wants Javelin and some babying to catch up.

Anyway...Vyland is winning stats by a lot over Shiida. He doesn't double right away, but once he does, he's totally smoking her, and Flight's not saving that.

You're probably exaggerating here, when exactly is he doubling? And how exactly is he "totally smoking her" offensively when the most STR they'll have apart on average is 3 (which results to just 6 when doubling)? Flight mobility is better than Cavalier mobility so yeah, it is helping because she'll often have more enemies to choose from and terrain will mean nothing to her.

The higher their levels get, the more Vyland wins durability, and he'll probably have won for quite a bit while they're both unpromoted. Shiida can kill armors, sure, but you can toss an Armorslayer to Vyland and expect him to do the same thing.

Durability maybe but not so much on offense. Shiida will still win offense thanks to the WEXP and level lead she earns from her join time that "doesn't matter much". She's using Silver Lance earlier it takes a while for Vyland to start doubling (13.6 SPD at level 20) and he's initially getting doubled by Peg and Draco Knights. He needs a few level ups before 1 rounding Armors with Armorslayer and he needs a C in sword to use Armorslayer in the first place, which could be rather slow for him since he's not doubling much for a while he's gonna be a Cav all the time.

After all, what good is it doing Ogma and the cavs if they're smoking armors with Steel? Never mind that once Vyland hits the doubling point, he'll stay there, and will double all the way up to Endgame. It doesn't really take him that long, either.

It'll take him a while to double the common enemies like Cavs. If he's promoting late (which is likely), he'll need a few level ups to double enemy Paladins. Vyland's barely 1 rounding the Cavs in chapter 18, he needs A rank in lances and 11 STR to do it with a Steel Lance so he's not smoking the Paladins for a quite a while and by the time he does, Shiida would already have many more chapters where she's been better than Vyland.

He starts at a low level, and has a nice speed growth. Generally, he's far better than Shiida, for longer.

No. Shiida's always doubling, Vyland needs levels to catch up and like I said before, a Draco Knight Shiida promoted at level 10 is actually quite plausible. Vyland would require more level ups for if he's promoted at lvl 10, good luck to him on doubling.

And he's also getting a master seal before she is, since Shiida has to wait behind so many other characters for a seal, Vyland will have hit 20 by then, so then she'll be competing with him.

20/1 Draco Knight Shiida would beat 20/1 Paladin Vyland in Durability AND Offense. Shiida's defense is 13.9 at that level and the unpromoted enemies in this chapter 15-17 Attack. 17 Attack would result in Shiida dying in 8.9 hits. Vyland has 10.8 DEF at 20/1 Paladin. 17 Attack would result in him dying in 5.7 hits. Against Silver Weapon enemies, their durability is pretty much the same since they're both getting 3 shotted as 20/1. Durability would eventually go to Vyland like 3 chapters later but that's fine because since that's happening quite late, it debunks your earlier statement about "Vyland being better than Shiida for longer". While unpromoted, their durability isn't exactl quite far apart either. Anyway, Vyland's only getting that Master Seal before Shiida through favoritism, and I will once again remind you that level 10/1 Draco Knight Shiida is plausible.

He's going to be doubling everything on the map by now, so Shiida's AS lead is irrelevant, and he wins everything else significantly. He's going to squeeze an ever so slight level lead on her by the time she does promote, so she's going to lose to Vyland even MORE.

K fine, he's doubling but he's not 1 rounding. And if he's 1 rounding with a Silver Lance, so is Shiida because that Draco Knight promotion puts their STR gap at 0.9 and let's not forget Wing Spear. He's not getting level lead on her and while he's unpromoted, he'll need babying and will level up slowly since he's not doubling fast enough.

Mage, basically Shiida's only viable reclass option, just lets Vyland own her harder. Now Vyland wins durability AND move. And offense, too, since a Javelin is more than sufficent to kill lolNM enemies. You could forge the Javelin to be WEAKER and HEAVIER with LOWER HIT and Vyland would still probably be doing fine. Shiida's only real possible benefit is Staves, but since she wasn't a Curate like Merric, she's going to struggle in the Staff level department, not nearly enough to offset Vyland's huge statistical win.

Side note: You know what I find funny? Every time some1 brings up Mage Shiida, a common counter-argument I see is that Cavaliers have better mobility. Doesn't this point also go against Merric and warrant him moving down a bit?

Yeah he wins durability and MOV, I'll give you that. He's not winning offense. A full Mage Shiida isn't really gonna struggle in the staff department. Bishop is a plausible class for her and this would result in a D with staves, and her tome rank would remain the same as it was while she was 20/0 Mage. That means Warp staff pretty soon.

You keep talking about his "huge statistical win" but it isn't as huge as you're making it seem. Besides, that endgame "lead" doesn't exactly do much for him since...

1. The Late game/Endgame is by far the easiest part of the game since high tier units are easily capable of soloing the maps and then there's warp which can nullify the fact that those chapters exist with little or no consequence. Compare this to the early game where you're pretty limited and using Warp has consequences and Hammerne doesn't come till chapter 20.

2. Shiida's better in the early game and is far more versatile than Vyland. Base stat Shiida with Wing Spear can 1 round a chapter 18 Cav while Vyland barely makes that happen while being 20/0 >_>. She can replace other units in your team thanks to that overkill SPD.

3. Vyland's statistical leads while they're unpromoted (and even after promotion) are minimal and make little or no difference in the performance of the 2.

[Dat Nick]

She's getting a level lead like you said AND WEXP.

WEXP? Who gives a shit? Both have D, enough to use steel and javelins, so both of them are good to go.

t pretty much makes it so that Shiida doesn't need to get STR ever and could e leveled late

More things exist besides armors and cavs, you know. And effective boost won't make lol 4 str kill a latergame armor.

Example, I could have her as a level 1 Peg Knight and she'll still 1 round the Cavaliers in chapter 18 with it.

NM enemies don't fail that badly, sorry. Vyland is killing them by C18 anyway.

Base stat Shiida with Wing Spear would score about 18-19 Damage per hit with Wing Spear and this is without WTA.

Yeah. But she won't double, probably

when exactly is he doubling?

He's actually doubling fail like archers right away, and can probably double reliably at like 9 or something.

She's using Silver Lance earlier

...We're talking VERY trivially earlier here, you know that I hope.

Vyland's barely 1 rounding the Cavs in chapter 18, he needs A rank in lances and 11 STR to do it with a Steel Lance

Hi, I'm a horseslayer. Nobody else gives a shit about me since they don't need me. I think I'll let Vyland use me.

a Draco Knight Shiida promoted at level 10 is actually quite plausible.

Have fun watching Shiida get killed in like two hits from everything.

24 HP, 12 def.

LINDE is more durable. I lold.

Vyland UNPROMOTED is hardly worse at that same level, since by then he'll be more than good to go on killing stuff. Yeah. That's not happening.

Anyway, Vyland's only getting that Master Seal before Shiida through favoritism

Try efficency. It's a game of natural selection: In a game where everybody is fighting over the same promotion item, the best units promote first.

and I will once again remind you that level 10/1 Draco Knight Shiida is plausible.

And I will once again remind you that doing so makes her the laughingstock of the entire army. Not even Gordin can contain his gaggles. I mean, giggles.

[Do I even wanna know what her 10/1 Falcoknight stats are? <_<]

K fine, he's doubling but he's not 1 rounding.

Then neither is Shiida.

Wing Spear

Ridersbane sez hai

So does the fact they're buyable in C15

...So yeah.

Doesn't this point also go against Merric and warrant him moving down a bit?

UNLIKE Shiida, Merric gets easy A rank staves, and also knows the meaning of the words durability, and levels up fast since healers are cool. Another blow against Shiida is that if she tries to go the Cleric route, her magic is going to be ridicliously lol, so she can't get easy A rank staves OR fast level ups.

A full Mage Shiida isn't really gonna struggle in the staff department.

E rank staves sez hai

...By the way, youre seriously counting just the warp staff? Everybody and their MOTHER can use the warp staff. Unless you're class set B.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

WEXP? Who gives a shit? Both have D, enough to use steel and javelins, so both of them are good to go.

They both start with a D but who's reaching B first? Obviously Shiida since she's likely to have C by chapter 4 and Vyland doesn't exist yet. Vyland will have to wait a while before he can use it and since Shiida's Lance rank will be higher than his, his slight STR lead will hardly exist while they're unpromoted.

More things exist besides armors and cavs, you know. And effective boost won't make lol 4 str kill a latergame armor.

True, she's not killing the Generals in chapter 20 with her 1/0 base stats and Wingspear but she's only off by like 2 STR. Forging and early promotion easily fixes this and do keep in mind that this is just with her base stats...

NM enemies don't fail that badly, sorry. Vyland is killing them by C18 anyway.

You're telling me this when I've got a C18 in NM that I can access at any time? Cavs carrying a Steel Lance have 8 SPD in that chapter and Shiida's doubling those with base stats. Wing Spear has 24 base damage against Cavalier and Armors. Factor in her 4 STR and that's 28. Then we factor in the Cav's DEF and it's 28 - 9 = 17. 17 x 2 = 34 damage and these Cavaliers have 23-25 HP...

Yeah. But she won't double, probably.

Read a little bit before that and you'll see I pointed out that she'd need 2-4 SPD to double. I was calculating with her base STR. A mistake with my wording there...

He's actually doubling fail like archers right away, and can probably double reliably at like 9 or something.

He isn't. And at level 9, he's only only doubling if he's using an Iron, Javelin or Silver Lance. Few enemies at that and he's not killing unless it's with the Silver Lance.

...We're talking VERY trivially earlier here, you know that I hope.

We're talking early as in, Cavs aren't the common enemies yet. By the time he gets B in Silver Lances, more Cavs start appearing and Shiida is one rounding with Wing Spear and Silver Lance. Vyland isn't since he's not doubling everything like you say just yet.

Have fun watching Shiida get killed in like two hits from everything.

24 HP, 12 def.

LINDE is more durable. I lold.

Vyland UNPROMOTED is hardly worse at that same level, since by then he'll be more than good to go on killing stuff. Yeah. That's not happening.

The only thing you're losing by promoting Shiida at lvl 10/0 instead of 20/0 is 4 HP, 2 STR and 1 DEF and some SKL and LCK which hardly matter. Not losing much. Vyland is losing offensively and defensively in such a comparison.

Try efficency. It's a game of natural selection: In a game where everybody is fighting over the same promotion item, the best units promote first.

Which is why you'd promote Shiida then:

"20/1 Draco Knight Shiida would beat 20/1 Paladin Vyland in Durability AND Offense. Shiida's defense is 13.9 at that level and the unpromoted enemies in this chapter 15-17 Attack. 17 Attack would result in Shiida dying in 8.9 hits. Vyland has 10.8 DEF at 20/1 Paladin. 17 Attack would result in him dying in 5.7 hits. Against Silver Weapon enemies, their durability is pretty much the same since they're both getting 3 shotted as 20/1. Durability would eventually go to Vyland like 3 chapters later but that's fine because since that's happening quite late, it debunks your earlier statement about "Vyland being better than Shiida for longer". While unpromoted, their durability isn't exactly quite far apart either. Anyway, Vyland's only getting that Master Seal before Shiida through favoritism, and I will once again remind you that level 10/1 Draco Knight Shiida is plausible."

And I will once again remind you that doing so makes her the laughingstock of the entire army. Not even Gordin can contain his gaggles. I mean, giggles.

Endgame comparisons maybe but that small boost is enough to make her performance more valuable than 20/10 Vyland. A 10/1 Shiida is still leveling and doing better than Vyland. He will beat her later but the Shiida still more time being the better unit and the better time of that instance.

UNLIKE Shiida, Merric gets easy A rank staves, and also knows the meaning of the words durability, and levels up fast since healers are cool. Another blow against Shiida is that if she tries to go the Cleric route, her magic is going to be ridicliously lol, so she can't get easy A rank staves OR fast level ups.

E rank staves sez hai

...By the way, youre seriously counting just the warp staff? Everybody and their MOTHER can use the warp staff. Unless you're class set B.

Why isn't she getting fast level ups? Who says you have to level her up as a Cleric, what's stopping me from just turning her into a cleric if she's at 0 EXP and not level her until the next chapter?

If Shiida and Vyland are both waiting for promotion, then one could have Shiida as a Cleric for some staff EXP. A rank staves is reachable if you do this and Reclass her to Bishop after promotion.

[Dat Nick]

You're telling me this when I've got a C18 in NM that I can access at any time? Cavs carrying a Steel Lance have 8 SPD in that chapter and Shiida's doubling those with base stats. Wing Spear has 24 base damage against Cavalier and Armors. Factor in her 4 STR and that's 28. Then we factor in the Cav's DEF and it's 28 - 9 = 17. 17 x 2 = 34 damage and these Cavaliers have 23-25 HP...

More than a moot point since Vyland is killing by then.

He isn't. And at level 9, he's only only doubling if he's using an Iron, Javelin or Silver Lance.

...Archers don't even have AS. All he has to do is lose the steel lance. And if they DO have AS, I doubt it's higher than 2.

The only thing you're losing by promoting Shiida at lvl 10/0 instead of 20/0 is 4 HP, 2 STR and 1 DEF and some SKL and LCK which hardly matter.

yeah

Never mind that Vyland starts spanking her in stats the second he promotes at, like, 13-15?

And Shiida still doesn't get to promote at 10 since Ogma, Barst, Cain, Abel, Merric, etc etc all promote before her.

Endgame comparisons maybe but that small boost is enough to make her performance more valuable than 20/10 Vyland.

how about 15/1 Vyland

who totally owns her and doesn't take that much longer?

Why isn't she getting fast level ups?

Cleric, her only option for this since Mage has fail move and thus harder time killing, has such fail magic growth that it's going to be a problem even on NM.

Who says you have to level her up as a Cleric, what's stopping me from just turning her into a cleric if she's at 0 EXP and not level her until the next chapter?

Because now you're slowing her EXP rate even further since she can't even get 1 level a chapter. Merric has no such woes.

If Shiida and Vyland are both waiting for promotion, then one could have Shiida as a Cleric for some staff EXP. A rank staves is reachable if you do this and Reclass her to Bishop after promotion.

bishop eh

and make her offense fail even worse?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

More than a moot point since Vyland is killing by then.

If leveled. You have to field Vyland and have him level up for him to be useful later, Shiida does that at level 1 due to her SPD and Wing Spear (which doesn't have much uses drained if she's still at base stats).

...Archers don't even have AS. All he has to do is lose the steel lance. And if they DO have AS, I doubt it's higher than 2.

You should've presented proof. Level 9 Vyland with Steel Lances doubles enemies with 3 AS which are usually just Armor Knights.

yeah

Never mind that Vyland starts spanking her in stats the second he promotes at, like, 13-15?

And Shiida still doesn't get to promote at 10 since Ogma, Barst, Cain, Abel, Merric, etc etc all promote before her.

Except she's still killing the majority of the enemies in the game even if unpromoted. There's also the fact that she's been more useful than Vyland for more chapters (including Vyland's early game which sucks). Shiida's getting the Master Seal first since she's likely to have a level lead over Vyland. The only statement you made on the matter of Vyland getting the Master Seal was vague and didn't help you since Shiida would end up being the more durable of the 2 when comparing their 20/1 average stats.

how about 15/1 Vyland

who totally owns her and doesn't take that much longer?

15/1 Vyland can have trouble doubling (12.6 SPD at 15/1). 10/1 Shiida beats 15/1 Vyland in Durability. Vyland's 32 HP and 10.1 DEF means he'll go down in 5.4 hits from the more common 16 ATK cavaliers. Shiida's 24 HP and 12.9 DEF means she'll go down in 7.7 hits, not to mention that her durability increases by 67% (11.4 hits) if you have her equipped with an Axe thanks to Weapon Triangle Advantage (and lolNM enemy stats)

Cleric, her only option for this since Mage has fail move and thus harder time killing, has such fail magic growth that it's going to be a problem even on NM.

That I pretty much covered earlier when I said that she won't need much STR (if any) thanks to the Wing Spear. The only thing that's doing is lowering her Magical offensive potential but there's still Wing Spear which again, dominates the majority of enemies since they're mostly Cavaliers and Paladins.

Because now you're slowing her EXP rate even further since she can't even get 1 level a chapter. Merric has no such woes.

That's only the case if you do it too often. A few times isn't gonna slow her down by much.

bishop eh

and make her offense fail even worse?

2 MAG and that's it. Also, keep in mind that this is ONLY if you intend to have her use a staff that she can't use a Sage. Reclassing her into a Bishop may not even be necessary, the suggestion is the if she must use a high rank staff and the penalty isn't much since she's doubling and it's just 4 less damage.

Ok, we've each made 3 posts. I think it's time for a mod to close this and the judges to start voting?

[Mekkah]

My vote is for Levin, due to the fact that he actually backed his claims up with numbers, whereas B2BD did not at all.

[Dat Nick]

I'm too used to running off the assumption that NM enemies fail and that anything that doesn't look too horrid is usually enough to kill, I guess.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You could've prevented most (if not all) the statistical advantages (particularly the durability) I had listed for Shiida if you had used Draco Knight Vyland in your arguments.