Mekkah vs vykan

[Mekkah]

Syrene flies, and Lyon does not, so let's start with the advantages that gives her.

First, the painfully obvious. Anytime Syrene reaches the enemy earlier, she can afford to take two or even three rounds without losing in output to Lyon. Or if she is worse at defense but reaching the enemies earlier, Syrene can afford to spend time healing herself.

Something real quick about earlygame. Both Syrene and Lyon are KOing pretty much anything in sight and pretty much invincible. However, what Syrene has and Lyon doesn't is the option to not kill enemies, by rescuing a unit and reducing her Spd to 7-8. Even if Lyon rescues someone else, he still OHKOs with his 29 base atk with Flux. This allows Syrene to beat enemies within an inch of her life so that some weaker unit like Franz can pick them off.

Next, the more situational usefulness. I'll try to be brief on each of these.

Ch2 - Syrene can reach the Pure Water village on turn 2, and then move in reach of any enemy she wants to on turn 3.

Ch3 - Syrene's lead is mostly just her movement and moving after trading here. It's notable that she takes <5 damage from Brigands and only ~10 damage from the Archer, and ORKOs even with a Javelin equipped, meaning Lyon has no real combat lead to build on.

Ch4 - Syrene completely ignores the rivers and the forests here, so she can get to any corner of the map on turn 2 if that, perhaps taking another PC with her to speed up the process even more. Lyon takes 1-2 more turns to get there, and he also can't get back north as quickly for the reinforcements.

Ch5 - Syrene allows you to take on the enemies in a more conservative way, as she can get to every village before the brigands can burn them down.

Ch6 - As with last map, Syrene allows you to play defensively by removing the timed threat: the Spider that's going to attack the civilians. Or she can just kill the boss with ease.

Ch7 - Syrene can lift someone to the center of the map to start clearing up enemies, whereas Lyon has to walk all the way around. She can get to practically any point within 4 turns or less, whereas Lyon is limited to the main path.

Ch8 - Move lead mostly.

Ephraim route:

Ch9 - Move lead mostly.

Ch10 - Duessel's cavaliers like to get themselves killed, and you'll want them all alive for the Knight Crest, so Syrene getting there much more quickly saves the day.

Ch11 - More NPCs getting themselves into trouble, sup L'Arachel and Dozla. Syrene can get to other ships before the planks have even been laid, meaning you can focus your other units on the threatening boss and other enemies more easily.

Ch12 - Syrene can intercept the flying monster reinforcements from the south so you can defend from the planks more easily. Or just get to enemies before the rest of your army can even see them, seeing as she can cross the water around the boat and all the walls in the city with no trouble.

Ch13 - Chapter is made of a river spiral. Syrene can fly towards the middle in 1-2 turns, and take out Selena early to remove the threat of Bolting if desired. There's also some villages to be saved from brigands/pirates, and your non-fliers would have to rush more carelessy through enemies to get to them in time.

Ch14 - Move lead mostly. Important move lead though, since you'll want to block Rennac's way and recruit him before he runs off.

Eirika route:

Ch9 - Literally no one except Syrene can get to the Dragonshield village in time without huge, huge death risks since Seth got himself traded out, and you also need that village to get the Angelic Robe at the end of the chapter. The Rapier village down south pretty much requires either Pirate Ross or a flier too. Syrene can either visit villages early, or eliminate pirates. She can also carry Eirika/Franz across the ocean so they can recruit Amelia.

Ch10 - This chapter is rather hectic, with Gerik/Innes getting themselves harmed/killed pretty easily as NPCs upon the initial enemy advance plus Marisa's squadron. The ballista also has a good shot at killing Tethys in two hits. Syrene can get to them pretty easily. She can also choose to fly to the mountain range and take out brigands there, and she can intercept Peg/Falcoknight reinforcements from the north and south before they attack your weaker units.

Ch11 - Once again L'Arachel can die if the RNG doesn't like her, so Syrene saves you from some annoying resets. Otherwise, go move lead.

Ch12 - Like half this map if not more consists of peak terrain with small passages between them, so Syrene gets a huge headstart. There's like three groups of fliers she can dispatch before they pick on someone like Tethys, too, and she can also kill the spiders before they get off the mountains, which means you don't have to wait for them as long.

Ch13 - Move lead.

Ch14 - Move lead.

Ch15 - Loldesert. So mostly move lead over Lyon. Really large move lead over the rest of the team. Syrene has an easy time reinforcing your non-main lord in case they get overwhelmed.

Ch16 - Move lead. Helps to get to the thieves in time.

Ch17 - Rescue utility by moving the civilians to a safer place. Chapter is seperated into rivers which she can easily cross, and it also has lots of fliers she can get to before anyone else.

Ch18 - Gorgon Eggs not hatching is important, since they deliver like 5 times the EXP if they're not hatched, plus you don't have to deal with their spells. Syrene gets to those eggs long before Lyon does.

Ch19 - Move lead.

Ch20 - This chapter has so much impassable or heavy terrain, her movement is effectively three or four times as big as Lyon's.

F - She can fly over the gap in the middle.

*phew*

Lyon has his own advantages, obviously, but they can all be substituted to large extents by people, including Syrene.

- He can heal. People can heal themselves as well, and Syrene can also rescue people in case of an emergency.

- He can summon. This is a fun way to increase PC durability by letting it take one attack that another PC would have taken, but you can also just put Syrene in that spot in 99% of the cases, which also has the side effect that the enemy ends up dying if she gets to counterkill it.

- He has 1-2 range. Fortunately, Syrene can utilize 1-2 range with Javelins as well if that's necessary.

Meanwhile, Lyon can never learn to fly, and the only thing that comes close to beating the mobility gap is a summon walking further, but summons like to insta-die and do like 30% damage to most enemies, and they also cannot fly.

Then there's supports, I'll be brief on that too. Syrene's Thunder > Lyon's Ice, since crit is more valuable than hit. Enemy AS, and thus avo in this game sucks, and there's a 2-RN system which further boosts it, so hit is often near, if not at 100%. However, people rarely to never have 100% crit or even anything close to it, even with two attacks.

Lyon supports Syrene, Gilliam, Colm and Vanessa.

Supporting Syrene is not going to help Lyon's case.

Gilliam is crap, with his laughable mobility and AS, meaning laughable offense, and his durability edge mostly consists of concrete hp/def, which is nice in the short earlygame period when there's no axes with WTA over him. Not so nice when people start dodging reliably, whereas Gilliam is constantly taking hits, especially from magic.

Colm and Vanessa are good, of course, though Colm doesn't benefit from supports when he's opening chests, doors, stealing or clearing fog, which is his main purpose.

Syrene supports Kyle, Vanessa, Lyon, Gilliam and Tana.

Tana and Vanessa both fly, so they can actually stick together if desired, or reunite quickly if they are seperated. Also, you can make fun Youtube videos with the triangle attack to get lots of fanboy replies.

Gilliam is amazing, with his amazing defense and passable attack making up for his rather mediocre mob...nah, I'm probably not going to get away with that.

Kyle is generally considered a good unit. He definitely wants Syrene on Eirika route even if Forde is in play, since she is his fastest support that can also keep up with him. And Forde can also switch to Franz/Eirika to free up Kyle.

[Vykan12]

However, what Syrene has and Lyon doesn't is the option to not kill enemies, by rescuing a unit and reducing her Spd to 7-8.

With 27 hp/10 def, she can’t afford to be doing that for long. Chapter 5 brigands have 17ish atk with an iron axe, so they 4HKO her at just over 50 display hit (6.25% death chance in 4 attacks). There’s also bows that 2-3HKO her at slightly higher hit rates.

And fundamentally, what you are suggesting is to sabotage Syrene’s offence (and the person she’s rescuing) on purpose to help develop other units. If we were so bent on distributing exp equally as opposed to naturally letting kills go more to the units who do better, then we’d end up doing ridiculous things like setting up kills for Ewan instead of letting someone else pull off a 1RKO.

Here’s some food for thought.

Syrene lv 20/1 (rescuing, iron lance): 19 att, 7-8 AS

Garcia lv 4/0 (steel axe): 19 att, 6 AS

Sure, Garcia has less hit, durability and slightly less AS, but the point is whenever Syrene rescues someone, she’s falling to Garcia’s level. Why would you want to have Syrene become Garcia’s offensive equal, and thus not even the best offensive unit on the team?

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There’s not much I can say about Syrene’s flier utility because it seems most of what you said is fairly undeniable. It is worth noting that Lyon can use the warp staff past chapter 15 to transport a unit 11-12.5 spaces, which is arguably more useful since Lyon can warp anyone that distance, not just Syrene.

Lyon has his own advantages, obviously, but they can all be substituted to large extents by people, including Syrene.

Lords aside, anyone’s function can be substituted by other units in some way. Take Syrene for example. Vanessa, another flier, or even any other fighter in most cases can substitute all of her functions, though possibly to a lesser extent.

Supporting Syrene is not going to help Lyon's case.

It’s not helping Syrene’s case either, but now both of them only need to fill in a B slot.

Colm and Vanessa are good, of course, though Colm doesn't benefit from supports when he's opening chests, doors, stealing or clearing fog, which is his main purpose.

Stealing still has Colm open for E. phase attacks, clearing fog doesn’t differ from normal functionality (ie moving from point A to B while facing tons of enemies) and the same can be said of opening doors. That leaves chests, but they are fairly rare. According to SF, the only chests that give anything worth a damn are in 14 (where Rennac is recruited), 16 and 19. In all 3 of those cases, Rennac can be subbed in to do the thieving, especially in 19 where there are 17 slots available, and most people assume 8 to be a fairly optimal team size.

You also seem to be cutting Colm’s battle credentials short.

Colm lv 15/1 (B Neimi, B Lyon, killing edge): 30 hp, 22 atk, 50 crit, 18 AS, 10 def, 8 res, 70 avo

Gerik lv 10/1 (killing edge): 36 hp, 24 atk, 37 crit, 15 AS, 12 def, 6 res, 38 avo

That should establish that Colm has no trouble killing, nor surviving, though if it doesn’t, check Colm out vs some enemies from Chapter 14 Eir route.

Lv 12 Knight (iron lance): 29 hp, 13 def, 17 atk, 94 hit

Colm 2RKOes and is 5HKOed at 31 hit.

Lv 2 Ranger (iron sword): 34 hp, 9 def, 17 atk, 118 hit

Colm 2RKOes and is 5HKOed at 47 hit.

Archer lv 11 (iron bow): 28 hp, 4 def, 14 atk, 103 hit

Colm 1RKOes and is 8HKOed at 22 hit.

Moreover, Colm has a 75% chance of critting an enemy in 2 hits, so he has a very good shot at killing anything he 2RKOes normally.

Colm’s performance clearly isn’t limited to thieving utility, and so he benefits from the Lyon support. What’s more is Colm wants Lyon badly, seeing as his other support options are easily inferior. Neimi has bad stats and no 1 range which makes her terrible for a good portion of the game, and thus not likely in play, Moulder is a tough unit to support for anyone since he’s going all over the place to heal people, Marisa is iffy and only around half the game, and Kyle has other options, not to mention they have a movement difference of 2.

Tana and Vanessa both fly, so they can actually stick together if desired, or reunite quickly if they are seperated.

Vanessa I’ll give you, but then Vanessa wants a B Lyon anyway due to her lack of alternatives. Moulder and Lute only have 5 move as opposed to Lyon’s 6, and they also need to backline due to durability problems, so they don’t really have the slightest chance of keeping up with Vanessa. Innes and Forde have other options that suit them better, and both also start later, so that’s not overly appealing for Vannie either.

I’ll also give you Tana, though she only gains full crit and crit eva from the support while getting partial bonuses everywhere else, so it doesn’t do much for her.

Kyle is generally considered a good unit. He definitely wants Syrene on Eirika route even if Forde is in play, since she is his fastest support that can also keep up with him.

Forde and Ephraim are actually faster, while Lute is tied. Lute also gives better bonuses (anima ftw) and can keep up with him reasonably well as a Mage Knight regardless of which promo path he takes (she’ll either have +1 move if he goes GK or –1 if he goes paladin). Suffice to say, Kyle can easily live without Syrene’s support.

And Forde can also switch to Franz/Eirika to free up Kyle.

That only works on Eir route, the Eirika support is 38 turns slower than the Kyle one, and their movement won’t match well unless Forde goes GK, but then he wouldn’t be able to keep up with Franz who is going paladin to in turn keep up with Seth.

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Now for a lot of the stuff you either skipped entirely, or skimmed over:

First off would be any direct comparisons between the 2 characters, since you didn’t do any.

Lyon lv --/14 (flux): 44 hp, 29 atk, 110 hit, 10 AS, 17 def, 19 res, 26 avo

Syrene lv --/1 (silver lance): 27 hp, 26 atk, 12 AS, 113 hit, 10 def, 12 res, 36 avo

Lyon wins across the board here. Offensively, 29 atk targeting res OHKOes all generic enemies up to the route split (the highest I could find was a general with 26 hp and 3 res) and most of the bosses are generals with 4-5 spd and big def-res gaps, so Lyon is doing better against those too. Moreover, Lyon is doing this all at 1-2 range, which makes for better E. phases. And before you scream “but javs”, Syrene only has 18 atk with them, which is barely enough to 2HKO soldiers and falls short in many cases.

Durability-wise, Lyon really pulls through. 1HKOing generics means he never has to face a player phase counter, whereas Syrene usually does. Then Lyon is invincible to mage enemies while being near invincible to physical attacks (enemies in chapter 8 have 18-19 atk at most, doing 1-2 damage to Lyon).

Jumping to the route split:

Lyon lv --/14 (C Syrene, C Colm, naglfar): 44 hp, 47 atk, 132 hit, 0 AS, 19 def, 21 res, 9 avo

Syrene lv --/4 (B Vanessa, C Lyon, iron lance): 29 hp, 21 atk, 125 hit, 16 AS, 14 def, 17 res, 60 avo

Same story. Lyon’s massive atk 1HKOes everything except certain bosses all the way up to Scorched Sands, so the offensive leads of the first comparison are still in tact. Furthermore, Syrene’s offence is beginning to become a problem.

For instance, steel lance Syrene falls short of ORKOing chapter 13 baels, gargoyles, mauthe dogs (she doesn’t double) and tarvos-es, and she doesn’t even want to be using the steel lance since she loses 12 avo with it. Drop her down to iron and her problems become considerably worse.

Durability-wise, many enemies still have trouble hurting Lyon, and looking again at chapter 13, the strongest enemy (26 atk) only 4RKOes him (8RKO if he uses flux) while 3RKOing Syrene at 18 display (28 with steel). That means even in Lyon’s worst case scenario of being doubled by high atk enemies, he’s still arguably more durable than Syrene. Obviously, if I put Lyon against a far more common 18-19 atk enemy, he’s invincible whereas she might take 5-6 rounds, albeit with decent avo.

And finally, jump to somewhere around endgame.

Lyon lv --/20 (A Syrene, B Colm, naglfar): 49 hp, 51 atk, 150 hit, 20 crit, 3 AS, 25 def, 27 res, 32 avo

Syrene lv --/15 (A Vanessa, B Lyon, silver lance): 37 hp, 33 atk, 136 hit, 17 crit, 20 AS, 18 def, 24 res, 81 avo

It’s official, Lyon replacing Moulder would break the game. 51 atk OHKOes less than usual, but still nabs the majority of enemies in chapter 19. Syrene, however, is having a good deal of issues offensively.

She’s doing 70% damage to generals, 95% damage to warriors, 75% damage to great knights, 90% damage to heroes (if she even doubles them), 68% damage to swordsmasters (she almost never doubles them) and the list goes on. Sure she could use a killer weapon for 47 crit (72% in 2 hits) but then she only borderline 4HKOes the more durable enemy types while also passing up guaranteed ORKOes on some of the weaker stuff like snipers.

I also checked 20 and she does do better there, though she falls short on most Maelduins, does worse against Cyclops than Lyon (44% damage vs 70%) as well as Morva (27% damage vs 51%).

Durability-wise, Lyon’s massive def is still laughing off attacks. The average attack value hovers around 24-26, which is basically a tink off Lyon, and the highest physical attacker I could find was a 32 atk warrior, who 4RKOed him (8RKO with something less heavy). Moreover, Lyon now has 2 nosferatus available to him, which makes for 40 weapon uses where Lyon literally cannot die. Granted, Syrene isn’t going to die easily with that massive 81 avo, but she still cannot compete with the reliability that is Lyon’s concrete durability.

The tl;dr version of that: Lyon beats Syrene in offence and durability forever. He OHKOes virtually everything at 1-2 range and almost never takes damage while Syrene runs into damage issues at about midgame.

The only thing that makes this statistical comparison arguable is Syrene’s ability to reach enemies sooner via flying. Thankfully, units can rescue and drop Lyon to make him reach certain places earlier. In fact, Vanessa’s earlygame offence is bad enough that she wouldn’t mind ferrying Lyon around (they support anyway, so she could choose not to canto away after dropping him), and obviously the return was well worth the effort. Yes, it’s not a substitute for flying, but it certainly cuts into Syrene’s only major advantage in this match-up.

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The next thing would be healing, which you almost entirely disregarded in saying:

He can heal. People can heal themselves as well, and Syrene can also rescue people in case of an emergency.

Remember that Lyon is replacing Moulder, so if Lyon doesn’t heal, nobody is getting healing aside from vulneraries until Natasha shows up. This means Lyon has a healing monopoly for 3 chapters. Let’s see what kind of impact that provides.

Chapter 1 Brigands w/ iron axe 4HKO Gilliam, 3HKO Eirika, Franz, Garcia while 2HKOing Vanessa, Ross, Colm, Neimi, Artur and Lute. The one I checked also had 80 hit, which translates to 36 hit vs Eirika (WTA), 74 hit against iron lance Franz (WTN) and 81 hit against Vanessa (WTD). This should give you an idea how bad team durability is in earlygame.

So Lyon is allowing people to attack instead of popping a vulnerary, is increasing team durability (he heals fully, whereas vulneraries don’t, and they’re far more limited), and is also gaining exp much faster than Syrene, something I didn’t even factor into my stat comparisons.

Sure, over the course of the game, his healing produces more limited returns since other healers become available and the team becomes more durable, though that’s really just making a near essential ability become more of a luxury. Regardless, he is always the best person suited for staff related tasks.

-With his high base mag of 22, he can heal anyone back to full hp using a simple heal staff for a very long time, making him resourceful in that respect.

-Unlike most healers, Lyon can frontline phenomenally while healing, and since staves don’t auto-equip like in FE10, Lyon can heal on P. phase then kill a ton of enemies on E. phase.

-Lyon has a base rank of S in staves, so he never has any issues being able to use a particular staff, a problem which afflicts people like Lute and Artur post promotion.

- Lyon is probably the only person who can use Latona since units generally prefer S rank weapons.

With the exception of 20/10+ Lute, the following applies as well.

-Highest range on physics, fortify, silence, berserk, warp, rescue and torch. If Lyon uses his full mov, that comes out to 17-18 range, or roughly 3 times his own movement.

-Highest chance of getting silence/sleep/berserk to work.

That’s downright incredible. Moulder ends up in top tier of most FE8 lists you find based almost purely on his healing, and yet Lyon can do what he does much better.

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Last up is summons, another aspect of Lyon you underrated in saying:

He can summon. This is a fun way to increase PC durability by letting it take one attack that another PC would have taken, but you can also just put Syrene in that spot in 99% of the cases, which also has the side effect that the enemy ends up dying if she gets to counterkill it.

This statement neglects the fact that enemies attack the weakest unit they have exposure to, which obviously isn’t Syrene. This is especially relevant when talking about 3-10 range attacks. By summoning phantoms, Lyon is sparing the team from some of the deadliest attacks you’ll ever face in the game. Some examples:

One of the Chapter 18 gorgons has shadowshot, 39 atk targeting res which 2HKOes most of your party. Moreover, a lot of the other gorgons in this chapter and 20 have a 1-3 range attack option in stone, meaning it’s practically impossible for gorgons to die on enemy phase. Phantoms are invaluable against these enemies.

Chapter 18 and 20 gorgons all have demon surge (37 atk, 106 hit, 1-2 range), then either have shadowshot (35 atk, 96 hit, 3-10 range) or stone (petrified status, 91 hit, 1-3 range). What’s worse is all these enemies attack res, and easily 2HKO every non-mage member in your party. If that weren’t bad enough, these enemies are virtually impossible to counter on E. phase due to their range combinations (1-2 and 3-10 or 1-2 and 1-3), meaning you need to dispose of them on P. phase. Phantoms are invaluable against these enemies.

Chapter 20 has mogalls which are very similar to gorgons. The one I’m looking at has 34 atk targeting res, 92 hit and both 1-2 and 3-10 range options. Phantoms are just as useful against these.

There’s plenty of other dangerous enemies that phantoms distract as well. In the final, there are 2 draco zombies with 33 atk and 135 hit. If a draco zombie attacks the phantom, you can then use P. phase to safely kill it at range. The same can be said of elder baels who have 31 atk and 85 hit. Going by memory, there were 2 berserkers in Scorched Sands who had a crit chance on many of your units, so again, Lyon’s undead creations would work wonders, and the list continues indefinitely.

The last thing about phantoms, though relatively minor, is that they extend Lyon’s attack range. If for some reason Lyon doesn’t have any enemies to attack after fully moving and no one needs healing, then Lyon can summon instead of simply ending his turn, which could result in an injured enemy or two.

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So to summarize:

-Lyon is statistically better than Syrene.

-Lyon is the best healer in the game, while Syrene can’t even use staves.

-Lyon’s summons increase the team’s durability, which Syrene has no answer for.

-Both are fairly even in terms of supports.

-The only paramater that Syrene wins in is movement, an advantage heavily neutralized by the fact that Lyon can be ferried.

-Thanks to Lyon’s character swap with Moulder, the Moustache Monster now exists.

[Mekkah]

With 27 hp/10 def, she can’t afford to be doing that for long. Chapter 5 brigands have 17ish atk with an iron axe, so they 4HKO her at just over 50 display hit (6.25% death chance in 4 attacks). There’s also bows that 2-3HKO her at slightly higher hit rates.

You're forgetting WTA. With a sword equipped, 17 atk does 6 damage to base level Syrene, which is a 5HKO. Rescuing Syrene with WTA has 41 avo, and those brigands/fighters only have ~83 hit, so that makes 35.7% true. Makes for about half a percent chance of death after 5 attacks. There's also Soldiers which she now gets WTD against, but they only have 14 atk factoring in WTA, a meager 7HKO. Archers admittedly do that much, but there's also only three on your example chapter, with only two close together. And the need to weaken them for others to kill is less, since other PCs can just attack them without taking a counter.

And fundamentally, what you are suggesting is to sabotage Syrene’s offence (and the person she’s rescuing)

You have room to field a moronic unit such as Neimi early on for Syrene to carry.

If we were so bent on distributing exp equally as opposed to naturally letting kills go more to the units who do better, then we’d end up doing ridiculous things like setting up kills for Ewan instead of letting someone else pull off a 1RKO.

That's a flawed comparison. It would work if I was defending a unit who I suggested to be given such treatment, like Ewan. But I'm defending the unit that's _giving_ the treatment. For an example of when it is useful: there is 3 enemies about 6 squares away from your main group, which consists of 5 units who would 2-3RKO them, plus Lyon/Syrene. I could put Syrene/Lyon over there, and they'd smite them. Or I could put Syrene carrying one of those five units in their range, and the main group 1-2 squares behind, then use the main group to kill off the enemies Syrene weakened. The team that chooses the latter option is now stronger than the team that did the former. Essentially, I lost no real PC turns, since the main group wouldn't have had anything to do if Lyon murdered those enemies anyway.

For most of the game, Syrene and Lyon are perfectly fine on their own. But oftentimes, particulary in rout maps such as Ch9, having more PCs built up to kill enemies with increases your exposal and thus efficiency a lot.

There’s not much I can say about Syrene’s flier utility because it seems most of what you said is fairly undeniable. It is worth noting that Lyon can use the warp staff past chapter 15 to transport a unit 11-12.5 spaces, which is arguably more useful since Lyon can warp anyone that distance, not just Syrene.

This is true, but you neglect that Syrene can transport units as well. It takes her a turn to rescue and drop, but then again she can also carry someone for multiple turns. And she's not limited to 5 uses that are shared by Saleh or soz, or only for the last 6 maps.

Lords aside, anyone’s function can be substituted by other units in some way. Take Syrene for example. Vanessa, another flier, or even any other fighter in most cases can substitute all of her functions, though possibly to a lesser extent.

The extent is the key here. None of the fliers are as sturdy as Syrene, meaning they can put it to far greater use, as the others will have their mobility cut off by the amount of enemies that can gang upon them.

It [syrene and Lyon supporting]’s not helping Syrene’s case either, but now both of them only need to fill in a B slot.

Having more viable partners is still an advantage. Lyon might have room for Syrene, might want to support Syrene, but Syrene might not want to support Lyon for reasons such as Tana/Vanessa being able to provide mutual benefit more often.

Stealing still has Colm open for E. phase attacks, clearing fog doesn’t differ from normal functionality (ie moving from point A to B while facing tons of enemies) and the same can be said of opening doors. That leaves chests, but they are fairly rare. According to SF, the only chests that give anything worth a damn are in 14 (where Rennac is recruited), 16 and 19. In all 3 of those cases, Rennac can be subbed in to do the thieving, especially in 19 where there are 17 slots available, and most people assume 8 to be a fairly optimal team size.

That's just a lot of side effects, but not the core of my argument: Colm doesn't need support bonuses to do those things. It does make it somewhat easier for him, but very rarely. The only stealable item that matters with significant enemy density around is the Body Ring from a Brigand in Ch13 Eirika. Clearing fog is something clearly (lolpun) different than just moving in to face enemies: it should be done with a Torch, in which case Colm can clear like 10-15 spaces of vision, so he could do it as far back as he likes. Opening chests and doors usually isn't done near (many) enemies. Mentioning Rennac can be used in later chapters only hurts Colm's case of being fielded, since then all he's leaning on is his fighting.

You also seem to be cutting Colm’s battle credentials short.

Colm lv 15/1 (B Neimi, B Lyon, killing edge)

What’s more is Colm wants Lyon badly, seeing as his other support options are easily inferior. Neimi has bad stats and no 1 range which makes her terrible for a good portion of the game

Why would I field a terrible unit just so Colm gets more battle credentials? Double standard, imo.

You also compared him to Gerik at his worst possible point, namely before he gets his supports in (Tethys gives full avo, which alone is important), whereas Colm's has his nearly maxed out. Not that I'd expect him to have spent 60 turns next to Lyon in Eirika route Ch10. 7-8 turns every chapter, many of which are ultrashort earlygame ones, and then Colm sometimes goes on excursions and has 1 more mov in general.

Then you also failed to mention that Colm has no 1-2 range, something you keenly put emphasis on about Lyon vs Syrene (except Syrene has at least some viable form of it).

Vanessa I’ll give you, but then Vanessa wants a B Lyon anyway due to her lack of alternatives. Lute only has 5 move as opposed to Lyon’s 6, and she also needs to backline due to durability problems, so she doen’t really have the slightest chance of keeping up with Vanessa. Innes and Forde have other options that suit them better, and both also start later, so that’s not overly appealing for Vannie either.

Lute's trouble is true for earlygame, though the move gap decreases by 1 upon promotion. Not much to say about this, except the part about Vanessa flying which stands.

Kyle is generally considered a good unit. He definitely wants Syrene on Eirika route even if Forde is in play, since she is his fastest support that can also keep up with him.

Forde and Ephraim are actually faster, while Lute is tied. Lute also gives better bonuses (anima ftw) and can keep up with him reasonably well as a Mage Knight regardless of which promo path he takes (she’ll either have +1 move if he goes GK or –1 if he goes paladin). Suffice to say, Kyle can easily live without Syrene’s support.

Eirika route eliminates Ephraim as a support partner, Forde was already accounted for, and Lute...apparently now a +1/-1 move gap after promo gets the spotlight while a -2 move gap before promotion (same as vs. Vanessa) gets shoved to the background? For better bonuses, anima x ice vs thunder x ice only differs in 1 atk vs 5-7 crit, which is pretty even.

Eirika route Kyle wants A Forde/B Syrene the most. Ephraim route prefers A Forde/B Ephraim or even A Ephraim/B Forde, but Ephraim in general is in high demand as a supporter, so that can't always happen for Kyle.

and their movement won’t match well unless Forde goes GK, but then he wouldn’t be able to keep up with Franz who is going paladin to in turn keep up with Seth.

Seth sucks in our fictional world.

Similiary, Seth takes the NPC spot in Ch17 that Syrene had, and is recruited by the same people.

Direct comparisons now...

Lyon wins across the board here. Offensively, 29 atk targeting res OHKOes all generic enemies up to the route split (the highest I could find was a general with 26 hp and 3 res) and most of the bosses are generals with 4-5 spd and big def-res gaps, so Lyon is doing better against those too. Moreover, Lyon is doing this all at 1-2 range, which makes for better E. phases. And before you scream “but javs”, Syrene only has 18 atk with them, which is barely enough to 2HKO soldiers and falls short in many cases.

And what enemy earlygame exactly survives Syrene? Her 26 atk with Silver Lance, or even 19 atk with Iron Lance 2HKOs (and thus ORKOs) generics just the same. Except for Knights, which she needs Silver Lance/Armorslayer for, and some Ch6 Cavaliers, which she'd have to use Silver for.

For Javelins, those do still kill the vast majority of generics, or at least injure them so severely that other units can pick them off without taking a counter. Earlygame barely has any ranged enemies, let alone threatening ones.

Durability-wise, Lyon really pulls through. 1HKOing generics means he never has to face a player phase counter, whereas Syrene usually does. Then Lyon is invincible to mage enemies while being near invincible to physical attacks (enemies in chapter 8 have 18-19 atk at most, doing 1-2 damage to Lyon).

The things with huge attack, like a Fighter with Steel Axe (~20-22ish atk) have too few hit to properly hit her due to WTA. Something below that, like an Iron Lance Cavalier with at most 17 atk, takes four rounds to actually kill her at base level. Being invincible is nice, but Syrene isn't worried about dying either.

Jumping to the route split:

(...)

Syrene lv --/4 (B Vanessa, C Lyon, iron lance)

So why exactly were Gerik and Colm given Killing Edges but Syrene gets stuck with Iron/Steel? They're not buyable before Ch17 either way.

For instance, steel lance Syrene falls short of ORKOing chapter 13 baels, gargoyles, mauthe dogs (she doesn’t double) and tarvos-es, and she doesn’t even want to be using the steel lance since she loses 12 avo with it. Drop her down to iron and her problems become considerably worse.

I presume you're talking about Ephraim route, since Eirika route Ch13 has no monsters.

The thing about baels and gargoyles is that they usually start out on places Lyon takes 4-5 more turns to reach, as illustrated in my flier utility business. So in that context, she can easily take two rounds to kill them without losing anything to Lyon. Of course, if the Silver Lance is intact or she uses one of the two Silver Swords you have at this point, she can also ORKO if that is really needed.

For endgame...

Lyon lv --/20 (A Syrene, B Colm, naglfar): 49 hp, 51 atk, 150 hit, 20 crit, 3 AS, 25 def, 27 res, 32 avo

Syrene lv --/15 (A Vanessa, B Lyon, silver lance): 37 hp, 33 atk, 136 hit, 17 crit, 20 AS, 18 def, 24 res, 81 avo

She’s doing 70% damage to generals, 95% damage to warriors, 75% damage to great knights, 90% damage to heroes (if she even doubles them), 68% damage to swordsmasters (she almost never doubles them) and the list goes on.

While this cannot be denied, it should be noted that Lyon is super borderline killing as well, which gets worse if Colm is not in play/getting chests. And he never doubles with that 3 AS of his. This is significant, because whatever Syrene attacked will die to one other PC attack, meaning there's no real difference between their effective performance.

Lyon has 51 atk (50 w/o Colm).

Ones he can very well fail to kill are:

Generals have 40-42 hp/9-11 res, 49-53 total.

Heroes have 40-44 hp/7-8 res, 47-52 total.

Warriors have 48-53 hp/3-4 res, 51-57 total.

Paladins have 42-45 hp/8-9 res, 50-54 total.

These he can kill pretty easily:

Snipers have 36-39 hp/6-7 res, 42-46 total.

Mage Knights have 32-33 hp/14-18 res, 46-51 total.

Swordmasters have 36-40 hp/7-9 res, 43-49 total.

Great Knights have 38-42 hp/8-9 res, 46-51 total.

Rangers have 36-38 hp/7-8 res, 43-46 total.

however, Syrene kills all of these with Silver/Killer as well, except Great Knights and Swordmasters. Actually, Swordmasters are a funny case in general. The fastest one in CATS' samples has 20 AS, and --/16 Syrene doubles that if she loses no AS, and --/15 has a chance to. Use a Killing Edge (28 atk, enough to kill 40 hp/8 def SMs, the highest you'll find), or give her a Body Ring, and it's easily managed if ORKOing Swordmasters if a necessity.

Also, Syrene can very well acquire either Audhulma or Vidofnir, effective moreso in Ch20 than in Ch19.

The only thing that makes this overall comparison arguable is Syrene’s ability to reach enemies sooner via flying. Thankfully, units can rescue and drop Lyon to make him reach certain places earlier. In fact, Vanessa’s earlygame offence is bad enough that she wouldn’t mind ferrying Lyon around (they support anyway, so she could choose not to canto away after dropping him), and obviously the return was well worth the effort. Yes, it’s not a substitute for flying, but it certainly cuts into Syrene’s only major advantage in this match-up.

I find several inconsistencies and shady implications here. First, in order for Vanessa's offense to become considerable, she has to actually fight things earlygame, which she obviously can't if Lyon is riding her (loses any chance of dodging, hitting or doubling whatsoever). Then in mid/lategame she's obviously not interested in carrying Lyon around.

It's also rather weird that you bring this up while dismissing Syrene's rescuing earlygame - who doesn't even need to have an empty back to have useful offense and reliable defense.

Also, you can't drop Lyon on things like peaks like in Ch12 Eirika, and you don't want a rescuing flier to fly through hordes of enemies if it risks them dying.

The next thing would be healing

Remember that Lyon is replacing Moulder, so if Lyon doesn’t heal, nobody is getting healing aside from vulneraries until Natasha shows up. This means Lyon has a healing monopoly for 3 chapters. Let’s see what kind of impact that provides.

Chapter 1 Brigands w/ iron axe 4HKO Gilliam, 3HKO Eirika, Franz, Garcia while 2HKOing Vanessa, Ross, Colm, Neimi, Artur and Lute.

The one I checked also had 80 hit, which translates to 36 hit vs Eirika (WTA)

That can be literally nothing but base level Eirika, which she obviously isn't. Or it's like a more reasonable 4/0 Eirika but you're not showing true hit. Either way, 26% true.

74 hit against iron lance Franz (WTN)

Franz either has WTA or WTD. WTD with an Iron Lance, but he has no reason to equip an Iron Lance in any chapter with brigands until Ch5.

Details notwithstanding, it's true healing allows people to attack instead of vulnerary-ing, I cannot really deny that. Except for people like 2-range, those would just have to attack at 2-range instead, or they can stick to doing that and not really needing healing as long as someone is in front of them.

Sure, over the course of the game, his healing produces more limited returns since other healers become available and the team becomes more durable, though that’s really just making a near essential ability become more of a luxury. Regardless, he is always the best person suited for staff related tasks.

This is important, because being the best at something means no longer having full credit. I would just turn to the next best for that task, and the only benefit I lose is, for example, 4 less hp healed, or 4 less squares warped. And the only time I feel that is when it makes a difference.

Of course, Syrene's flying can be used to make similar advantages. For example, intercepting (flying) incoming before they can attack other PCs means the team needs less healing in general. I'll concede your four bullet points, I guess.

That’s downright incredible. Moulder ends up in top tier of most FE8 lists you find based almost purely on his healing, and yet Lyon can do what he does much better.

Statements like this have little weight in this debate. Vanessa is top tier in most FE8 lists too, and that's almost purely based on her flying.

Last up is summons

This statement neglects the fact that enemies attack the weakest unit they have exposure to, which obviously isn’t Syrene.

It can be made into Syrene, since 8 move + flying allows you to place her in chokepoints or wherever you want to block an enemy's path from reaching weaker units. Also, summons disappear after being tickled once, meaning if I am facing 4 threatening enemies, Syrene can intercept and perhaps even dispose all four of them, whereas the Summon will let 3 of them through. This matters because:

Chapter 18 and 20 gorgons all have demon surge (37 atk, 106 hit, 1-2 range), then either have shadowshot (35 atk, 96 hit, 3-10 range) or stone (petrified status, 91 hit, 1-3 range). What’s worse is all these enemies attack res, and easily 2HKO every non-mage member in your party. If that weren’t bad enough, these enemies are virtually impossible to counter on E. phase due to their range combinations (1-2 and 3-10 or 1-2 and 1-3), meaning you need to dispose of them on P. phase. Phantoms are invaluable against these enemies.

These guys pretty much never come alone. The gorgons, especially if they hatch, come in huge groups. Mogalls are grouped together by large amounts (Ch20 has two with Shadowshot right next to each other, F has a reinforcement trigger that pulls out about 8 at once). Also, about disposing them on player phase, Syrene is better at that than Lyon. She can outrange 1-2 range Arch Mogalls, she can dispose of Gorgon Eggs before they hatch, she can fly over the terrain in 20 and F to take them on before they get to your group, etc. Also, their max ~106 hit is a joke in the face of Syrene's 81 endgame avo. 12.75% for those Demon Surges. 8.2% for 101 hit Shadowshot, 4.65% for 96 hit Stone. Less if she uses something that doesn't weigh her down.

There’s plenty of other dangerous enemies that phantoms distract as well. In the final, there are 2 draco zombies with 33 atk and 135 hit. If a draco zombie attacks the phantom, you can then use P. phase to safely kill it at range.

Draco Zombies have 1-2 range, so there's no such thing as "safely at range" unless you want to pull out a Longbow. You're going to take a counter or two either way. Of course, you don't have to fight the Draco's at all if Syrene and one other flier just carry two other units across the gap with some help from Tethys, and simply stay in the middle. Oh, and they also only have 5 movement, so anyone with 7+ move can bring the fight to them.

The same can be said of elder baels who have 31 atk and 85 hit

Those would only have ~30% displayed hit even on some avoid joke like unsupported 20/9 Arthur. 11% with B Lute/B Joshua. Syrene herself could lure those all day with no care for the world. Never mind the extremely high density of thickets in Ch20 (Which has the most Elder Baels).

Going by memory, there were 2 berserkers in Scorched Sands who had a crit chance on many of your units, so again, Lyon’s undead creations would work wonders

One has a Hand Axe and the other a Devil Axe, for 90 and 85 base hit respectively. And everyone gets +5% avo in this game from standing on the sand. Their limited movement makes it easy to enforce WTA against them. Again, Syrene could simply fly up on these without a care for the world.

The last thing about phantoms, though relatively minor, is that they extend Lyon’s attack range. If for some reason Lyon doesn’t have any enemies to attack after fully moving and no one needs healing, then Lyon can summon instead of simply ending his turn, which could result in an injured enemy or two instead of none at all.

So this is where we throw in nearly useless advantages?

If Tana and Vanessa can or don't have to attack from spaces next to one threatening enemy such as a boss or a draco zombie, then Syrene can deliver a 100% hit 100% crit attack for a guaranteed player phase kill.

So to summarize:

Lyon is "better at combat" in a theoretical sense, except Syrene is 99% as good as he is for earlygame, a percentage which goes down during the course of the game but still remains intact when it comes to the majority of enemies.

Flying is awesome (makes her win combat against enemies simply by reaching them earlier, and also gives you more items) while healing and summoning are luxuries.

Syrene has a slight support edge.

Syrene made Seth look like a bad unit.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Mekkah

[Vykan12]

You're forgetting WTA. With a sword equipped, 17 atk does 6 damage to base level Syrene, which is a 5HKO. Rescuing Syrene with WTA has 41 avo, and those brigands/fighters only have ~83 hit, so that makes 35.7% true. Makes for about half a percent chance of death after 5 attacks. There's also Soldiers which she now gets WTD against, but they only have 14 atk factoring in WTA, a meager 7HKO.

Let’s not stray from the point here, which is this rescuing ploy is hurting Syrene’s durability somewhat significantly. If the initial example didn’t convince you, then consider that Syrene levels much slower than the enemies in general, so this tactic only becomes riskier and less effective as the game goes on.

Let’s jump to Chp 9 Eir route while giving Syrene 3 levels, which in itself is very generous (she needs a bosskill on most maps she’s in for that to happen). Now she has 28 hp/11 def/30 avo instead of same/same/47 avo.

There’s a group of 17 atk/100 hit mercs which 5HKO her. Before rescuing, that’s a 4% chance of death. After, it jumps to 37%. There’s also 7 archers in this stage, and an iron one goes from 33% chance of killing in 2 hits to 68% once rescue tactics are employed. Just imagine what happens against later chapter/promoted enemies.

For an example of when it is useful: there is 3 enemies about 6 squares away from your main group, which consists of 5 units who would 2-3RKO them, plus Lyon/Syrene. I could put Syrene/Lyon over there, and they'd smite them. Or I could put Syrene carrying one of those five units in their range, and the main group 1-2 squares behind, then use the main group to kill off the enemies Syrene weakened.

If you had 5 units who could 2-3RKO enemies, then they could perform the same role that Syrene is, which is weakening a bunch of enemies on E.phase for easy picking next P. phase, and they didn’t have to make their durability worse than it initially was to pull that off. In fact, that plays into my Syrene vs Garcia comparison example you didn’t address.

Though really, I do not see the value in what you are trying to promote here. It is always easier to farm for exp than it is to kill enemies proficiently. For example, a character can switch to a weaker weapon, you can have your crappy units attack before the better ones, and if you’re really desperate, you could even get the enemy to heal through a vulnerary/priest. And in any case, Lyon isn’t magically stealing all the team’s kills by his mere presence, especially when he can do things like healing and summoning to help out the team while drawing from a different exp pool.

The extent is the key here. None of the fliers are as sturdy as Syrene, meaning they can put it to far greater use, as the others will have their mobility cut off by the amount of enemies that can gang upon them.

A lot of ferrying doesn’t even require facing enemies in the first place. For instance, if Vanessa ferries someone from one side of a mountain to another, the only thing that could get in her way are flier enemies. Ranged threats can be averted by cantoing after a drop.

That's just a lot of side effects, but not the core of my argument: Colm doesn't need support bonuses to do those things.

Combat parameters greatly help the ease at which he does those thief duties. If I have Colm torch in a FOW map and there’s 2 enemies in his range that can team up to kill him, then I have to shield him from those attacks. Or suppose there are enemies near/within a chest room. Having Colm being able to kill the enemy himself is better than having to send someone off their directed path to help him.

Why would I field a terrible unit just so Colm gets more battle credentials? Double standard, imo.

The point is still valid if the Neimi support is dropped.

You also compared him to Gerik at his worst possible point, namely before he gets his supports in (Tethys gives full avo, which alone is important), whereas Colm's has his nearly maxed out.

That’s irrelevant since base lvl Gerik is a very good melee unit. He ORKOes Scorched Sands fighters, brigands and the mercs he doubles with a steel sword while ORKOing cavaliers and wyverns with a steel axe. That’s practically every enemy in that level. Getting at worst 4HKOed while boasting decent avo also makes his survivability respectable.

Then you also failed to mention that Colm has no 1-2 range, something you keenly put emphasis on about Lyon vs Syrene (except Syrene has at least some viable form of it).

I’m not arguing Colm > Gerik. The point was to show that Colm is far from useless in melee like FE9 Sothe and thus his supports matter to him as much as it matters to any unit.

---

I’ll concede the support points since Syrene’s list is just too damn good. Even so, the gap is only as big as Syrene’s outgoing support benefits – Lyon’s, which is a minor difference.

And what enemy earlygame exactly survives Syrene? […] Except for Knights, which she needs Silver Lance/Armorslayer for, and some Ch6 Cavaliers, which she'd have to use Silver for.

You can add some bosses to that list.

The things with huge attack, like a Fighter with Steel Axe (~20-22ish atk) have too few hit to properly hit her due to WTA.

What guarantees her WTA? Sure she has 2 weapon types, but there will be instances where she is WTD/WTN such as facing a group of enemies of mixed classes.

Something below that, like an Iron Lance Cavalier with at most 17 atk, takes four rounds to actually kill her at base level.

Getting killed in four rounds isn’t much. One P. phase kill followed by facing 3 enemies is already putting a small gamble on her life. Though, even assuming you use her conservatively enough to avoid all such situations, she will still need to heal herself (or be healed by Lyon :D) whereas Lyon never has to waste a P. phase to tend his wounds.

Use a Killing Edge (28 atk, enough to kill 40 hp/8 def SMs, the highest you'll find), or give her a Body Ring, and it's easily managed if ORKOing Swordmasters if a necessity.

If you want to bring stat boosters into this, flux Lyon has 15 AS with a speedwing (14 with a body ring), enough to double generals and warriors he couldn’t 1HKO before.

First, in order for Vanessa's offense to become considerable, she has to actually fight things earlygame, which she obviously can't if Lyon is riding her (loses any chance of dodging, hitting or doubling whatsoever).

Vanessa can only really fight in maps that aren’t axe heavy such as chp 4 (monster map). Thus, we compensate for Vanessa’s ineffectiveness in those maps by giving her kill favoritism in the maps she does well in, which is still efficient since she can reach targets before most of your other units anyway. Moreover, it’s not like Vanessa ferrying Lyon eliminates her offensive opportunities. She’s not going to be in an enemy’s range every turn, and she can drop Lyon then canto to a favourable attack position.

It's also rather weird that you bring this up while dismissing Syrene's rescuing earlygame

Vanessa isn’t fighting enemies while ferrying Lyon since that would be suicide.

you don't want a rescuing flier to fly through hordes of enemies if it risks them dying.

You’re really underestimating how inaccessible mountains/rivers/other obstacles can be to enemies, which makes those areas relatively free passage for fliers.

This is important, because being the best at something means no longer having full credit. I would just turn to the next best for that task, and the only benefit I lose is, for example, 4 less hp healed, or 4 less squares warped.

The next best before anyone is promoting would be Natasha, but then you’re ignoring how crippling it is that Natasha needs protection and cannot counter, both of which cut heavily in her healing utility. That makes for a good 12-15 maps where Lyon either has a healing monopoly, or is still so far ahead of the secondary option that it makes little difference.

Of course, Syrene's flying can be used to make similar advantages. For example, intercepting (flying) incoming before they can attack other PCs means the team needs less healing in general.

That would only be true if she herself weren’t taking damage at all. By intercepting those enemies, she’s simply displacing the healing demand from other units to herself.

Draco Zombies have 1-2 range, so there's no such thing as "safely at range" unless you want to pull out a Longbow. You're going to take a counter or two either way.

The summon can still be used to control when you want to take on the Draco Zombie. Just one of their attacks can put many units at risk of dying from the next attack of any generic enemy, so it’s better to kill DZs when all neighbouring threats are eliminated. Alternatively, someone could heal the person who just got hit from the DZ, which also plays into Lyon’s favor.

Of course, you don't have to fight the Draco's at all if Syrene and one other flier just carry two other units across the gap with some help from Tethys, and simply stay in the middle.

That limits the amount of units who can help take on Moustache Monster & his guarding minions. Either that, or you’re taking up a dubious amount of time ferrying all your units just to avoid 1-2 enemy encounters.

Oh, and they also only have 5 movement, so anyone with 7+ move can bring the fight to them.

The issue is surviving after the DZ attack (they have 32 atk hitting res/136 hit). Thankfully, physic!Lyon is an easy solution to that.

If Tana and Vanessa can or don't have to attack from spaces next to one threatening enemy such as a boss or a draco zombie, then Syrene can deliver a 100% hit 100% crit attack for a guaranteed player phase kill.

My example applies whenever an enemy outranges Lyon, which is a fairly common occurrence. Yours only really applies to bosses, which is rare in itself, but also requires precise positioning of 3 characters, no less the fact that those 3 characters must be used in the same PT.

Flying is awesome (makes her win combat against enemies simply by reaching them earlier, and also gives you more items) while healing and summoning are luxuries.

If healing is a luxury, then so is fighting. Lyon’s healing beats out a vulnerary in any case where a unit takes more than 10 damage, which is quite often, not to mention his healing can result in reducing/eliminating death chances and increases the offensive opportunities of virtually any character in play. Then, healing is also cheaper on funds than loading your inventory with vulneraries, and not having to put a vulnerary into a unit’s inventory gives him/her another slot to carry a particular weapon. Sure, you could beat the game without healing, but you could also beat it with a mostly pacifist playstyle, neither of which have any relevance to this debate.

[Mekkah]

Let’s not stray from the point here, which is this rescuing ploy is hurting Syrene’s durability somewhat significantly. If the initial example didn’t convince you, then consider that Syrene levels much slower than the enemies in general, so this tactic only becomes riskier and less effective as the game goes on.

Getting 5RKOed at 36% true is still rather hax durability. As for later, note this from my opener:

Something real quick about earlygame.

It is not a tactic intended used beyond earlygame. You showed at some point that the FE8 earlygame crew is frail, so they appreciate this help more than at any other point. After supports pick up due to other PCs leveling up faster than enemies and gaining supports, it's no longer necessary, but Syrene helps them get to this point faster.

If you had 5 units who could 2-3RKO enemies, then they could perform the same role that Syrene is, which is weakening a bunch of enemies on E.phase for easy picking next P. phase, and they didn’t have to make their durability worse than it initially was to pull that off.

Except like half or more of them would be taking counters in the process, plus in my example the enemy is out of their initial movement range, so they have to be lured in first by someone (and before you bring up Lyon's Phantom, he'd only attract one). So letting them do it by themselves is a worse deal. Also, by letting Syrene do the luring, I can pack the rest together in proper support formations more easily.

Though really, I do not see the value in what you are trying to promote here. It is always easier to farm for exp than it is to kill enemies proficiently. For example, a character can switch to a weaker weapon, you can have your crappy units attack before the better ones, and if you’re really desperate, you could even get the enemy to heal through a vulnerary/priest.

But such measures cost extra turns, either whole ones or just PC ones. In my example, the only turns lost are Syrene's own (and it's only one, rather than other PC's from healing or having to attack more often).

And in any case, Lyon isn’t magically stealing all the team’s kills by his mere presence, especially when he can do things like healing and summoning to help out the team while drawing from a different exp pool.

Of course he isn't. The point was that Lyon facing combat does nothing but increase current killing efficiency. Syrene has that option, but also the option of keeping it the same or still slightly increasing it in trade for more killing efficiency later, since the rest of the team gets more level-ups.

A lot of ferrying doesn’t even require facing enemies in the first place. For instance, if Vanessa ferries someone from one side of a mountain to another, the only thing that could get in her way are flier enemies. Ranged threats can be averted by cantoing after a drop.

This is rather abstract since it tells us nothing about in-game situations, merely hypotheticals about terrain combinations that might not even exist. Taking some more concrete examples:

- Ch5: This place has little to no impassable terrain, and most impassable terrain (village rooftops, walls) is next to normal terrain, meaning Fighters and Archers still have an easy time reaching fliers

- Ch6: Vanessa has to fly all the way down south to ferry someone to the civilians to kill the spider, whereas Syrene can afford to take a more direct route

- Ch9 Eirika: Vanessa and Tana get 2HKOed by the Pirates and OHKOed by the Archers, whereas Syrene doesn't give a damn about Pirates and gets 2-3RKOed by Archers, so she can drop people on the opposite side of the southern sea much more easily

etc

And the mere fact that Vanessa has to Canto away from facing enemies whereas Syrene doesn't is a huge advantage for her: she can be productive right after delivering.

Combat parameters greatly help the ease at which he does those thief duties. If I have Colm torch in a FOW map and there’s 2 enemies in his range that can team up to kill him, then I have to shield him from those attacks. Or suppose there are enemies near/within a chest room. Having Colm being able to kill the enemy himself is better than having to send someone off their directed path to help him.

Colm can Torch away FoW from so far back that the only way he'd have to be in enemy range is if you're playing Ch6 (where you get attacked from multiple sides), in which case it hardly matters if you trained him or not (and in which case there's no support bonus yet, anyway).

For your chest room example, Colm still isn't killing those enemies by himself if you have Lyon and/or another supporter helping him doing that. Which means I might as well dedicate one or two other PCs to helping him clearing out these enemies. In fact, it might be the better option, since I can now choose the PCs rather than having to restrict the ones that are supporting Colm.

The point is still valid if the Neimi support is dropped.

How? He loses 2 atk, 10 crit, 1 def/res and 5 avo. Looking at the enemy samples, he now takes an extra round against the Knight, survives two less rounds against the Archer and faces 5 more display hit for everything. Also, his crit reduced from 50 to 40, so now he only has a 64% chance of critting once.

That’s irrelevant since base lvl Gerik is a very good melee unit. He ORKOes Scorched Sands fighters, brigands and the mercs he doubles with a steel sword while ORKOing cavaliers and wyverns with a steel axe. That’s practically every enemy in that level. Getting at worst 4HKOed while boasting decent avo also makes his survivability respectable.

So your argument basically goes "Colm is on par with Gerik, and Gerik is good, because he can do this and this", except for the part where Colm can't use axes, so saying Gerik can kill Cavs/Wyverns with a Steel Axe isn't doing anything for you here. Also, around Scorched Sand, KOing unpromoted scrubs in one round isn't much to brag about, since your entire cast can be promoted by now.

I’m not arguing Colm > Gerik. The point was to show that Colm is far from useless in melee like FE9 Sothe and thus his supports matter to him as much as it matters to any unit.

He's not useless, it's just that he isn't anything special at combat, and I can get his thieving utility from him at base level with pretty much 90% efficiency.

I’ll concede the support points since Syrene’s list is just too damn good. Even so, the gap is only as big as Syrene’s outgoing support benefits – Lyon’s, which is a minor difference.

a.A

You can add some bosses to that list [people she can't ORKO without Silver].

Bosses, especially, fall under the category of "things Syrene can attack before Lyon even knows they exist". Look at Ch7 boss, for example. It takes Lyon about 8 turns to get to him at full movement speed, whereas Syrene can get near him on turn 3-4.

Merging the next two points...

What guarantees her WTA? Sure she has 2 weapon types, but there will be instances where she is WTD/WTN such as facing a group of enemies of mixed classes.

Getting killed in four rounds isn’t much. One P. phase kill followed by facing 3 enemies is already putting a small gamble on her life. Though, even assuming you use her conservatively enough to avoid all such situations, she will still need to heal herself (or be healed by Lyon) whereas Lyon never has to waste a P. phase to tend his wounds.

As I said earlier, things like Soldiers 7HKO and Cavaliers 5HKO even when she has a sword equipped, so she has to face enormous groups of enemies at once for this to be an issue. All that means is you can't blindly throw her into the Ch6 fog. No other earlygame chapter has enemy density high enough to worry about dying for Syrene.

If you want to bring stat boosters into this, flux Lyon has 15 AS with a speedwing (14 with a body ring), enough to double generals and warriors he couldn’t 1HKO before.

Flux Lyon only has 32 (33 with B Colm) atk. Looking at the list of enemies again from the CATS samples, he now gets Warriors and Generals, as you said. However, he now fails to KO:

x/x Class - damage estimate mostly based on the mean

2/2 Mercenaries - ~28/35 damage

2/2 Myrmidons - ~28/32 damage

1/3 Thieves - ~27/29 damage

1/3 Druids - 30/33 damage

15/15 Swordmasters - 26/38 damage

9/9 Heroes - 25/42 damage

7/7 Mage Knights - 17/32 damage

7/7 Rangers - 26/37 damage

He is now still borderline doubling. With 15 AS (Speedwing), he gets 2/7 Paladins, 16/17 Warriors, 5/5 Snipers and 7/7 Great Knights. With 14 AS (Body Ring), that drops to 6/7 Great Knights, 4/17 Warriors, and 0/7 Paladins.

So that's only hurting him, really.

Vanessa can only really fight in maps that aren’t axe heavy such as chp 4 (monster map). Thus, we compensate for Vanessa’s ineffectiveness in those maps by giving her kill favoritism in the maps she does well in, which is still efficient since she can reach targets before most of your other units anyway.

Vanessa can very well finish off enemies, even axe enemies if their health is low enough (rescuing Syrene weakening anyone?) earlygame, which allows her to grow faster and get to a reliable avo point earlier. Then in Ch4 we can still "favor" (let her fly ahead) her regardless of whether she carried Lyon in previous maps, and she would be even better than otherwise.

Moreover, it’s not like Vanessa ferrying Lyon eliminates her offensive opportunities. She’s not going to be in an enemy’s range every turn, and she can drop Lyon then canto to a favourable attack position.

Vanessa isn’t fighting enemies while ferrying Lyon since that would be suicide.

?_? Point is, Vanessa can't fight at all when carrying Lyon, which is still much worse than contributing chip or finishing damage (even if with just a Javelin). Surely that eliminates offensive capabilities, if only because it takes her 2 actions just to rescue and drop Lyon alone.

You’re really underestimating how inaccessible mountains/rivers/other obstacles can be to enemies, which makes those areas relatively free passage for fliers.

And you're underestimating the value of being able to drop units in more spaces and let a flier contribute to combat right after or even during rescue missions.

The next best before anyone is promoting would be Natasha, but then you’re ignoring how crippling it is that Natasha needs protection and cannot counter, both of which cut heavily in her healing utility. That makes for a good 12-15 maps where Lyon either has a healing monopoly, or is still so far ahead of the secondary option that it makes little difference.

The paragraph I was responding to was

Sure, over the course of the game, his healing produces more limited returns since other healers become available and the team becomes more durable, though that’s really just making a near essential ability become more of a luxury. Regardless, he is always the best person suited for staff related tasks.

AKA the period where people _are promoted_ (plus Eirika route Saleh exists). Changing the subject to the period before that isn't helping.

That [syrene intercepting enemies just like Summons can] would only be true if she herself weren’t taking damage at all. By intercepting those enemies, she’s simply displacing the healing demand from other units to herself.

For the first half of the game, she's taking much less damage (especially due to avo) than the majority of your units, so that reduces the amount of healing needed. And she can get enemies to reach her on turns there would be nothing significant to heal. For example, she goes to meet some enemies that would take your other units 2-3 more turns to reach, and in the meantime the main group takes no damage, so Syrene only requires one heal during a turn where healers would have nothing to do otherwise rather than others requiring it when there's more demand for it.

Which brings me to my next point: Syrene's flying makes it easier to place her so that multiple enemies can reach her, especially fliers when there's heavy terrain involvement. Where others would end up creating a chokepoint where they can only face 1 or 2 enemies each, she can face twice as much or more. This means that I only need one healer or Elixir to restore the wounds from the same group of enemies that would otherwise require multiple.

Merging next two points:

The summon can still be used to control when you want to take on the Draco Zombie. Just one of their attacks can put many units at risk of dying from the next attack of any generic enemy, so it’s better to kill DZs when all neighbouring threats are eliminated. Alternatively, someone could heal the person who just got hit from the DZ, which also plays into Lyon’s favor.

The issue is surviving after the DZ attack (they have 32 atk hitting res/136 hit). Thankfully, physic!Lyon is an easy solution to that.

The only two Draco Zombies that move aren't near enemies at all - the Wights near them can be ORKOed by nearly anyone before you take him on, since they rush towards you. The reinforcements in that chapter only show up from opposite sides: approach the left Draco Zombie, and there will be reinforcements from the right, and vice versa. Literally nothing else in this chapter moves until you get into their range, except the Wight reinforcements near Moustache Man©, but those only come when you approach him. Which means there isn't going to be any attack for at least 1-2 turns after you dispose of a Draco Zombie, so anyone who took a Draco Zombie hit has all the time in the world to take an Elixir.

My example applies whenever an enemy outranges Lyon, which is a fairly common occurrence. Yours only really applies to bosses, which is rare in itself, but also requires precise positioning of 3 characters, no less the fact that those 3 characters must be used in the same PT.

To be more precise, your example applies whenever an enemy outranges Lyon and he has nothing better to do. Not only that, but the return value of a summon extending his range is something minor like one less counter taken (provided we can OHKO whatever that Summon tried to weaken (if he doesn't miss) when we'd have 2HKOed it before). The return value of the triangle attack is much higher: you get a 100% reliable crit, which in itself often prevents counters. And Syrene can not only do a triangle attack herself, but she can also allow one, two (or even three if you'd like to use Tethys for it) of them in a turn. And in a chapter with extremely high enemy density, such as Ch20, them ending up in a V formation can actually happen rather naturally.

Merging next two points:

If healing is a luxury, then so is fighting.

Sure, you could beat the game without healing, but you could also beat it with a mostly pacifist playstyle, neither of which have any relevance to this debate.

That's a pretty strong statement to make. Fighting is actually the goal of the game - of any rout map in particular, and obviously bosses have to be killed from thrones as well. Certainly fighting is in much bigger demand than healing.

Most of healing's normal advantages have already been addressed somewhere in this debate, so I'll just take these last few:

Then, healing is also cheaper on funds than loading your inventory with vulneraries

This is true, but the difference isn't significant enough to be a real point in itself. You get so much liquid cash and sellable gems in this game that a 18G per use difference isn't going to have a noticable impact on anything. Plus, Syrene again has her conceded flying advantage to take credit for large amounts of expensive items and other goodies to compensate for this, such as Ch13 Ephraim where it's quite difficult for anyone but her to save the Talisman village, which alone is worth 4000G for selling.

and not having to put a vulnerary into a unit’s inventory gives him/her another slot to carry a particular weapon.

Thankfully, your (pretty much always used, and always fielded) lord is your 100-item convoy in this game, making inventory slots a rather null point. Five slots is enough for even a unit like a Great Knight with variable weaponry, and more specific weaponry such as Horseslayers are generally only needed for one section or one small group in a map, so they can be in convoy when they're not needed. And of course, units can trade among themselves for weapons/vulneraries, and neither trading/convoying actually cost a turn to do (you can still attack, and if there's no one to attack, mounts can still move again too).

[Vykan12]

Getting 5RKOed at 36% true is still rather hax durability.

That all depends on weapon triangle status as well as the enemy group faced (bows are 2-3HKOes). Anyway, consider that Lyon wins durability before Syrene rescues anyone, and then wins it even more when she does. That means Syrene is trading an advantage (assuming her turning to Garcia level can even be called that) for a disadvantage.

It is not a tactic intended used beyond earlygame. You showed at some point that the FE8 earlygame crew is frail, so they appreciate this help more than at any other point.

Bad durability =/= bad offence and besides, the team being frail earlygame plays more into Lyon’s healing advantages than Syrene’s ability to weaken stuff instead of outright killing it.

Maybe I’m not hammering home how useless this softening tactic really is.

Base level iron axe!Garcia has 16 att, enough to 2RKO most enemies he comes across (he does 59% damage to brigands per hit, for instance). Brigands only 3HKO him, and most other enemies 4+HKO, so he can be safely replace Syrene as an E. phase weakener in most cases.

The same can be said of base level steel sword!Franz (15 atk). Once he starts doubling consistently, he can switch to iron or slim weapons to leave the enemy with maybe 10-20% of their hp in tact, which is better damage output than rescue!Syrene.

Or take Gilliam. His main issues are low move and lack of AS, but on the combat end of things, he has no trouble 2RKOing (more base str than Garcia) or surviving (the same brigands 4HKO him even after WTA).

In fact, there aren’t really that many units on the team who fail to 2RKO enemies, so the main issue behind this whole weakening tactic is how well one can survive. Fortunately, earlygame is full of forests and forts to boost avo and def, and enemy density is fairly low to start, so this is hardly an issue.

I may sound like I’m flipflopping on this whole earlygame-units-have-trouble-surviving point. The intricacy here is that our earlygame units can survive well enough to pull off what rescue!Syrene is doing for 1 turn, but not durable enough to do it for multiple ones, which is where Lyon’s healing kicks in.

A bit of a random point, but even Lyon’s phantoms can pull off this weakening tactic pretty effectively. According to this, a lv 1 phantom has 9 str (1 more than Garcia) and 34 base avo. Enemies range from 80-90 hit right now so the phantom is only facing a ~50% chance of death per atk, 18% if the phantom is on a forest. Assuming the latter, there’s a 64% chance that phantom will survive 3 consecutive attacks and essentially do the same thing that Syrene is. Talk about the little phantom that could, and we have a potentially infinite supply of them.

Except like half or more of them would be taking counters in the process

As opposed to Syrene taking those counters. The healing demand is going to be roughly the same, and if the enemies distribute their attacks instead of ganging up on one unit, that dramatically decreases that chance of anyone dying.

plus in my example the enemy is out of their initial movement range, so they have to be lured in first by someone.

Where in your example did you specify anything about this? This is what you wrote in your opener.

However, what Syrene has and Lyon doesn't is the option to not kill enemies, by rescuing a unit and reducing her Spd to 7-8. Even if Lyon rescues someone else, he still OHKOs with his 29 base atk with Flux. This allows Syrene to beat enemies within an inch of her life so that some weaker unit like Franz can pick them off.

There’s nothing here indicating that you can’t send one of your units into these enemies’ attack ranges. I suppose you could send Syrene ahead of your group and injure everyone she pleases. However, remember that this is robbing other units of atk experience, which makes up roughly a third of the total experience an un-promonted would be getting assuming a 1:1 ratio between attacks and kills.

Something I hadn’t considered in previous posts was in showing various ways in which Lyon’s amazing offensive efficiency positively impacts the team’s overall CEXP gain. The main one would be that Lyon doesn’t ever need to be deployed to retain his offensive effectiveness, whereas Syrene does. Why does this matter? I can have a unit take Lyon’s place for any amount of time I please, and so that unit can directly thank Lyon for any CEXP he/she gains. Whereas Syrene can weaken tons of enemies, something most of your cast does proficiently anyway, Lyon can allow your team to develop a whole extra unit, while only being used himself when called upon.

Another one would be Lyon purposely going into combat with only staves equipped, or perhaps trading his weapon to someone else for a short period of time. Sure, those 3 enemies wouldn’t even take damage, but they’re also not attacking any other units, which means we can nab those 3 kills on player phase distributing exp any way we want. Of course, this would only be used in situations where injuring/killing those enemies on E. phase wouldn’t be any more efficient than killing them the following P. phase, such as in a defend map or where most of your units need to move fully just to attack the enemies, which isn’t terribly different from them just moving fully. Syrene could do the same, but then she might need to get herself healed, whereas Lyon isn’t taking damage.

Then there’s Lyon devoting himself mainly to healing and summoning, but I don’t think I need to re-iterate the numerous advantages of that.

But such measures cost extra turns, either whole ones or just PC ones.

Not necessarily. If I can get 3 attacks on an enemy instead of 2 and still move those 3 units more or less fully, then no efficiency was really lost. Or let’s say we’re on chapter 5 (kill boss) and Joshua is in range of an arena, but not the boss. Having him visit the arena isn’t costing me any turns. So again I re-iterate, It is always easier to farm for exp than it is to kill enemies proficiently.

Ch5: This place has little to no impassable terrain, and most impassable terrain (village rooftops, walls) is next to normal terrain, meaning Fighters and Archers still have an easy time reaching fliers.

Lyon can be rescued while the flier re-moves to one of the spaces on the wall that the fighter cannot access. Next turn, the flier moves up one space, drops Lyon and re-moves 6-7 spaces in any direction. If there were an archer there instead of a fighter, then the flier would’ve simply had to have waited a space farther than usual, which still gives the flier 5-6 move after Lyon’s dropped.

Ch6: Vanessa has to fly all the way down south to ferry someone to the civilians to kill the spider, whereas Syrene can afford to take a more direct route

The spider isn’t even going to show up, no less threaten the kids before the chapter’s long done. Anyway, look at all the terrain in this level that can be bypassed with ferrying.

Ch9 Eirika: Vanessa and Tana get 2HKOed by the Pirates and OHKOed by the Archers, whereas Syrene doesn't give a damn about Pirates and gets 2-3RKOed by Archers, so she can drop people on the opposite side of the southern sea much more easily

That would matter if the pirates weren’t so heavily immobilized by water travel (apparently Jesus walks pretty slowly).

I have the cursor on a spot where a flier would be safe from any attacks, and the water west of that spot is almost entirely clear of enemies, making it very safe travel for people carried on winged creatures.

While I’m at it with this picture show, let’s show some examples of places where ferrying Lyon is undeniably effective.

Again, the cursor is on a spot where no enemies can attack. Lyon can be dropped right below the village and proceed east.

Bypassing that mountain cuts off ¾ of Lyon’s travel time in this level. From where the cursor is, the flier would only need to move a single space to be able to drop him.

Dropping Lyon onto that island allows him to OHKO all 4 of those heroes (they have 46-49 hp + res to Lyon’s 50 atk), all enemies that Syrene cannot ORKO without a crit. In addition, there are many other islands and a mountain that Lyon can bypass if he’s ferried.

And now for our final exhibit:

You yourself mentioned this gap when talking about bypassing draco zombies, so not much needs to be said there.

I also left out some obvious examples like the desert and the chapter 20 canyon, but by now you should get the point. Ferrying is a plausible way to transport Lyon that heavily cuts into Syrene’s only major advantage in this match-up, which is her superior movement.

And the mere fact that Vanessa has to Canto away from facing enemies whereas Syrene doesn't is a huge advantage for her: she can be productive right after delivering.

That all depends on what point of the game we are in and what enemies are available to Vanessa after dropping Lyon. If Vanessa cantoes to a group of soldiers after dropping Lyon, she’s obviously being productive. Then post promotion Vanessa is a very competent attacker (steel lance!Vanessa has 28 atk/18 AS with 2 B supports, enough to ORKO scorched sand cavs and double some myrmidons), so she definitely isn’t cantoing away from enemies, but rather towards them. Either that, or she’s dropping Lyon after moving fully since now they can both be in a large group of enemies without anything to fear.

Colm can Torch away FoW from so far back that the only way he'd have to be in enemy range is if you're playing Ch6

That happens to be one of only 3 FoW maps in the game. Also, Colm gives +5 vision so if he’s sitting say 3 spaces from the frontlines, you’re only going to get 2 extra vision out of him. That isn’t really doing much in terms of detecting threats.

How? He loses 2 atk, 10 crit, 1 def/res and 5 avo.

If you want to be that particular, just give him a Kyle C/B instead.

So your argument basically goes "Colm is on par with Gerik, and Gerik is good, because he can do this and this"

No, the argument is that Colm is comparable to Gerik, a unit that is demonstrably good at melee. All that I established was that Colm isn’t dead weight on the battlefield, so giving him support bonuses isn’t a 1-way deal like supporting Tethys is.

As I said earlier, things like Soldiers 7HKO and Cavaliers 5HKO even when she has a sword equipped, so she has to face enormous groups of enemies at once for this to be an issue.

It’s not just dying in one round she needs to be worried about. As she accumulates hits over a chapter, her need to heal gets increased, which is another thing that cuts into her movement lead over Lyon.

Flux Lyon only has 32 (33 with B Colm) atk. Looking at the list of enemies again from the CATS samples, he now gets Warriors and Generals, as you said. However, he now fails to KO:

*list of data*

So that's only hurting him, really.

Lyon only resorts to using flux when it is advantageous, such as if he’s fighting a group of enemies that all contain enemies he can double.

Vanessa can very well finish off enemies, even axe enemies if their health is low enough (rescuing Syrene weakening anyone?) earlygame, which allows her to grow faster and get to a reliable avo point earlier.

The problem is she can only finish off brigands because they 2HKO her, meaning if she attacks one on player phase, she’s toast on the enemy phase counter. She has to either use a javelin that butchers her accuracy, or wait for someone to catch up and weaken the enemy for her, something that happens after Lyon has been ferried.

Vanessa can't fight at all when carrying Lyon, which is still much worse than contributing chip or finishing damage (even if with just a Javelin). Surely that eliminates offensive capabilities, if only because it takes her 2 actions just to rescue and drop Lyon alone.

Rescuing and dropping only takes up 3 whole phases (player + enemy + player), but as I said before, brigands and archers severely limit her offensive opportunities in the first place, so it makes very little difference. In fact, it’s worse than that:

-Vanessa can’t attack an archer or brigand directly because she’ll very likely die on the E. phase counter.

-She can’t attack a brigand with a javelin if another brigand is in range because she risks 2 E. phase counters.

-She can’t risk attacking thunder mages until lv 7/0 since they have have a 1-2% chance of OHKOing her with a crit.

-The above also applies to mercenaries.

She pretty much can’t attack anything safely without it being set up for her, which again requires that units catch up to Vanessa. Suffice to say, there is a huge net gain from having Vanessa act as Lyon’s personal chauffeur.

Sure, as Vanessa gets better, she’ll be less and less willing to chauffeur Lyon around. However, other units get introduced to your army (Tana, Forde, Kyle, etc) and Lyon only needs 1 high move unit to carry him around. Also, there are many situations where there are no enemies in range on a given turn. When that’s the case, nothing is lost by having a paladin/flier rescue Lyon while another unit takes and drops him in the same turn. It’s possible for Lyon to move up to 11 spaces in a single turn doing this. Video demonstration.

And you're underestimating the value of being able to drop units in more spaces

0_o huh? Lyon isn’t eating spaces on the map when he’s rescued.

For the first half of the game, she's taking much less damage (especially due to avo) than the majority of your units, so that reduces the amount of healing needed.

You’re acting like Syrene’s presence on the team alone heavily reduces the amount of healing that is needed, which doesn’t make much sense. For one thing, Syrene can’t both be a resue tank and have high avo. She only has 28 avo when carrying someone, which comes out to 52-62 display hit (54-72 real) against her before weapon triangle consideration, so she’s bound to be taking damage. Conversely, we could set Syrene loose and let her solo earlygame maps to reduce the amount of healing needed by a significant amount, but then as you said that would hurt the team in the long run.

Looking at this from a mathematical perspective, we’ll suppose we have 8 units in play and we’ll make up an average healing demand coefficient of 5 (1 being min, 10 being max). Now suppose Syrene’s healing coefficient is only 1. If I swap an average unit for Syrene, the average changes from 5 to 4.5, which is only 10% lower than when she wasn’t there. Even if Syrene’s injection to the team were given triple weight, the average would still be 3.5 (30% lower). If a lot of healing was needed before Syrene was around, a lot will still be needed after.

This means that I only need one healer or Elixir to restore the wounds from the same group of enemies that would otherwise require multiple.

From a healer’s perspective, it’s better for multiple units to take chippy damage than it is for one unit to take a load of damage since that increases the staff exp pool. So if Syrene is going crazy with her high move and killing enemies before they even reach the remainder of your party, you’re not only hurting other units’ CEXP gains, but also hurting Natasha/Saleh/Lute/Artur/etc’s SEXP gains, so there’s really little opportunity for team growth in what you are proposing.

Don’t get me wrong. Syrene having the ability to reach enemies before anyone else can is undeniably an advantage she has over Lyon. However, she has to at least tame that ability somewhat for any reasonable team growth to occur since the rewards of having a developed Franz/Vanessa/Kyle/etc is too good to pass up, especially for rout maps. And again, Lyon has ways to offset that movement advantage such as warping units, getting ferried and using summons to extend his range.

The only two Draco Zombies that move aren't near enemies at all - the Wights near them can be ORKOed by nearly anyone before you take him on, since they rush towards you.

There’s 5 enemies that start near the Draco Zombie, and they don’t move unless someone’s in their attack range.

Even if the 2 bottom wights are killed, that still leaves 3 attackers to finish off the person who took the Draco Zombie counter.

Moustache Man©

We agreed to call him Moustache Monster© :D

Which means there isn't going to be any attack for at least 1-2 turns after you dispose of a Draco Zombie, so anyone who took a Draco Zombie hit has all the time in the world to take an Elixir.

Even assuming this were true, an elixir is a pretty bad alternative to just letting Lyon physic you. They are very rare (Serenes doesn’t even list any under “item locations” or “chests” so I can’t say how many there in fact are, but I’m guessing maybe 3 sets), only have 3 uses, take up a slot and can be sold for a lot of cash. There really isn’t any reason to use them unless a unit is in a pretty desperate situation.

Not only that, but the return value of a summon extending his range is something minor like one less counter taken.

Why do you always assume a phantom dies immediately? I experimented with them a bit and it turns out each phantom that Lyon summons is lv 14, meaning that the level of the phantom corresponds to that of Lyon himself. For one thing, that changes one of my points about earlygame I’ll correct here.

A bit of a random point, but even Lyon’s phantoms can pull off this weakening tactic pretty effectively. According to this, a lv 14 phantom has 16 str (4 more than Syrene) and 50 base avo. Enemies range from 80-90 hit right now so the phantom is only facing a ~30% chance of death per atk, 8% if the phantom is on a forest. Assuming the latter, there’s an 83% chance that phantom will survive 3 consecutive attacks and essentially do the same thing that Syrene is. Talk about the little phantom that could, and we have a potentially infinite supply of them.

Come to think of it, these phantoms are actually better than most of your units, at least before they start promoting.

Franz lv 20/1 (steel lance): 26 atk, 108 hit, 7 crit, 16 AS, 46 avo

Phantom lv 14 (killer axe): 27 atk, 113 hit, 35 crit, 11 AS, 50 avo

That’s downright hilarious, a phantom that can actually compare offensively to a promoted Franz. Lyon can now be in 2 places at once since his phantom can last many turns before facing a truly significant chance of death, and even if it dies, Lyon can just summon a new one to repeat the process.

Essentially, this means I was wrong about phantoms being able to 2RKO enemies effectively in earlygame since they actually 1RKO everything (11 AS doubles just fine at this point). However, this just about eliminates Syrene’s movement advantage altogether because:

-Lyon can make a phantom to slow down, or even completely wipe out a set of reinforcements. In fact, phantoms can pull a Jesus (walking on water), so they can even chase down pirate/brigand reinforcements, which gives you more time to visit villages. If Syrene waits at a reinforcement spot, she’s obviously not putting her high move to good use.

-If your team splits in 2, Lyon can have his phantom follow one group while going in another himself. Even with +2 move and flying, Syrene cannot usually beat out an extra player phase.

In addition, Lyon and his phantom take up 2 spaces to Syrene’s 1, meaning they can better clog chokepoints, make longer extended walls to guard your backliners, etc. Moreover, the point about phantoms drawing dangerous attacks away from your units is amplified since they can do this on a regular basis. For instance, shadowshot!gorgons only have 32 hit on a lv 20 phantom, and shadowshot!mogalls only have 26. I believe you said at one point that gorgons/mogalls come in huge groups, with as much as 8 mogall reinforcements appearing in the final. It only takes 2 gorgon/mogall attacks to kill most units in your party, meaning they pose a death risk on those units no matter how much their high avo might minimize that chance.

Supposing those 8 mogalls can’t all be killed on P. phase, let’s see what our phantom is doing for us.

Tanking 1 hit: 100%

2 hits: 74%

3 hits: 54%

4 hits: 40%

5 hits: 29%

6 hits: 22%

7 hits: 16%

8 hits: 12%

It might not be the case that all 8 mogalls have shadowshot, or that they all reinforce in the same place, but the point is that phantoms are very likely to survive past the first attack even in endgame, which makes them very effective at being bait, no less killing some enemies for free.

The return value of the triangle attack is much higher: you get a 100% reliable crit, which in itself often prevents counters.

I can’t believe I’m reading this. Are you seriously arguing that triangle attacks are useful on generic enemies?

Where to begin…

-Triangle attacks are only possible once all 3 fliers have been recruited, which can be as late as chapter 10 Eph route. All phantom related goodness is available as soon as chapter 1.

-All 3 fliers have to be in play. Syrene and Vanessa I can grant you, but Tana has a very good chance of not being in play. Without going into too much detail, she has severe offence and durability problems when she first joins (poor hp/def, weak to bows, lack of con makes her lose tons of avo with semi-basic weapons) and has an awful affinity (wind doesn’t give any durability boosts she desperately needs), which alone is enough to make her a below average unit.

-Why on earth are Vanessa, Syrene and Tana in a V formation? Both fliers support Syrene, so they’re more likely to be in an | or --- formation.

-If an enemy managed to enter the pegasis’ V formation on enemy phase, that enemy would at least be injured to the point where one of them can pull off a 1HKO, so the 100% crit is completely superfluous.

-If you form a V formation around an enemy on player phase with the last flier activating the triangle attack, then we have to be talking about an enemy that is 5-7HKOed for that triangle attack to not be a complete waste. The enemy probably died at the hands of the first peg player phase attack, and if it didn’t, then 2/3 pegs are taking counters anyway.

-The enemy wouldn’t get stuck in the V formation if he/she has 1-2 or 2 range.

Triangle attacks may be cool, but their practical value against generic enemies is about as high as the protective value cheese would have as body armor.

Certainly fighting is in much bigger demand than healing.

Perhaps I should’ve phrased that differently. Healing cannot simply be considered a luxury, it doesn’t do justice to its value throughout the game. If staves didn’t exist at all, units would have to life off of vulneraries/elixirs/fort regeneration alone, which is a pretty decisive blow to an army’s efficiency, especially in lategame where both hp and damage are inflated. What’s a luxury is something like a silence staff since you gain very little from getting 3 sages to lose their ability to attack.

Thankfully, your (pretty much always used, and always fielded) lord is your 100-item convoy in this game, making inventory slots a rather null point.

Having to send a unit adjacent to a lord unit as opposed to anywhere they want, as well as costing their player phase turn is quite a bit to lose in a single turn. It’s also something that can happen a lot more commonly than you’d think. 5 slots is not nearly enough to supply everyone with steel 1/steel 2/hand 1/ hand 2/killer/reaver/vulnerary/spirit water/armorslaying/dragonslaying/horseslaying/etc.

That was a pretty fun and very difficult debate. Though, when it all comes down to it, purple hair wins the day.

[Vykan12]

Here, this might interest the judges. I made a savestate with Syrene and Lyon hacked in. The naglfar is in the inventory, so we can just pretend it only shows up upon the route split. I'm not sure if supports will work or not, further testing will tell me that.

Edit: Sorry guys, I chose NM by accident. It's still pretty fun regardless.

One thing I've noticed is that phantoms don't always have killer axes as I originally assumed. So far I've seen ones with iron axes, killer axes and tomahawks, though regardless they seem to 1RKO pretty much everything they come by.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Vykan12

[DragonBladeSniper]

Sorry if I'm not aloud to add posts in this but (don't remember the rules well) I'm wondering, this is a debate about a hacked run? Or are you saying IF they were there ___ would be better than ___. Either way, sounds interesting.

[Vykan12]

If the opening post wasn't clear, it was just a set of hypotheticals we were debating. The savestate I made was just supposed to give an idea how Syrene vs Lyon carries out in practice.

[CT075]

An unofficial voter appears! /pokemon reference

Damn, this is close. If I had to choose a winner, I'd pick Vykan, seeing as he posted a map that helped against Mekkah's arguments about map formation and etc. Besides that, I think that some of Mekkah's counters were a bit lacklustre. For example:

It is not a tactic intended used beyond earlygame. You showed at some point that the FE8 earlygame crew is frail, so they appreciate this help more than at any other point. After supports pick up due to other PCs leveling up faster than enemies and gaining supports, it's no longer necessary, but Syrene helps them get to this point faster.

Actually, Syrene simply ends up taking a unit that could've possibly accomplished the same thing off the field. (Neimi can deal ranged chip damage, Garcia for reasons that Vykan outlined, Colm for having decent avo, Ross can do the same basic role as Neimi and later on can serve as a superior Garcia given some training, etc. Hell, Lyon's phantoms can do the same thing, as Vykan demonstrated.)

Just my opinion, which probably doesn't mean a lot.

[dondon151]

Actually, Syrene simply ends up taking a unit that could've possibly accomplished the same thing off the field. (Neimi can deal ranged chip damage, Garcia for reasons that Vykan outlined, Colm for having decent avo, Ross can do the same basic role as Neimi and later on can serve as a superior Garcia given some training, etc. Hell, Lyon's phantoms can do the same thing, as Vykan demonstrated.)

You do realize that you listed 3 characters who combined can do what only 1 character does?

[CT075]

Ross can be an inferior Garcia at base.

Neimi, fine.

Colm can double to accomplish the same thing.

[dondon151]

You do realize that you listed 4 characters who combined can do what only 1 character does?

[CT075]

Vykan proved that a Phantom can do the same thing as Syrene, without help.

[dondon151]

That doesn't have anything to do with anything. You said "heh we can replace Syrene with Neimi, Ross, Colm, and Garcia and it'll be the same thing" which is utterly dumb because it entirely contradicts your statement that Syrene removes another unit off the field who performs the same functions that she does, only less!

[Vykan12]

Thanks for the vote Gordaran, though I don't agree with the reasoning you gave.

[-Cynthia-]

I feel a little odd voting in this debate, since the conditional thing rather throws me off, but I have a feeling that this debate won't receive many votes.

In a nutshell, this debate was mainly about Syrene's flying utility as opposed to Lyon's superior stats and staff usage.

Mekkah's point about Syrene being able to Rescue early on in the game was a good one IMO, it showed that Syrene can help the rest of the team get EXP, rather than just clear the map which both Syrene and Lyon do easily, Syrene often faster

due to flyer utility. Lyon helps the team via staves though, which is also useful.

Supports were essentially a tie, especially since they share so many of the same partners and even support each other. Probably a slight win for Mekkah since Syrene has a better affinity.

Vykan showed that Lyon has offensive and durability leads, but Mekkah showed that Syrene doesn't have ORKOing issues until much later in the game, and her durability is still really good (such as being 5RKOed at 36% true as opposed to 8RKOd, it really isn't much of a lead at this point).

Then came the point of Syrene's flying utility. Mekkah demonstrated that this comes in handy on many maps. Vykan's counter mainly involved the ferrying argument, which I found rather unconvincing compared to Mekkah's counter. If Lyon is forcing a unit to carry him around, mainly Vanessa, though the other units mentioned were also mostly high tier, he is both crippling her as a purpose for something else in that chapter, and additionally as a unit for the rest of the game, since fighting while carrying Lyon is suicidal. This wouldn't be a problem if Vanessa weren't a unit worth using, but she's a top tier unit. If Lyon has to cripple a top tier unit (and take up an additional slot just for a ferrier) in order to match Syrene's flying utility, that's a huge win for Syrene.

Overall tough to choose, but I'm going to go with Mekkah.

[Vykan12]

I don’t mean to interject again, but I really don’t agree with your reasoning Cynthia. It has nothing to do with voting against me, btw.

In a nutshell, this debate was mainly about Syrene's flying utility as opposed to Lyon's superior stats and staff usage.

And phantoms. That was kind of a key argument in my closer.

Mekkah's point about Syrene being able to Rescue early on in the game was a good one IMO, it showed that Syrene can help the rest of the team get EXP, rather than just clear the map which both Syrene and Lyon do easily, Syrene often faster

due to flyer utility. Lyon helps the team via staves though, which is also useful.

I had several counter-arguments to this, and yet you only brought up one. Here’s one such example.

The main one would be that Lyon doesn’t ever need to be deployed to retain his offensive effectiveness, whereas Syrene does. Why does this matter? I can have a unit take Lyon’s place for any amount of time I please, and so that unit can directly thank Lyon for any CEXP he/she gains.

Supports were essentially a tie.

I conceded supports in the second post, so I have no idea what you’re talking about.

If Lyon is forcing a unit to carry him around, mainly Vanessa, though the other units mentioned were also mostly high tier, he is both crippling her as a purpose for something else in that chapter, and additionally as a unit for the rest of the game, since fighting while carrying Lyon is suicidal.

I addressed that in my closer. Did you even read it?

I spent a whole section talking about how difficult it is for Vanessa to even attack an enemy in earlygame, meaning she needs to wait for other units to weaken enemies for her. However, because of her movement lead, those other units have to catch up to her. Therefore, in the meantime, Vanessa can ferry Lyon. But that’s not all. I mentioned there would be situations where ferrying wouldn’t cost the team any movement, and even made a video showing how it was done.

And besides, it’s not just ferrying that cuts into Syrene’s movement lead. On several occasions I mentioned that Syrene’s need to heal occasionally limits her movement capabilities somewhat, that phantoms extend Lyon’s movement range, and that Syrene hurts the development of other teammates by not restricting her movement at all.

I don’t mind if you found Mekkah more convincing, but you didn’t even seem to acknowledge the intricacy behind any of the counter-arguments I made.

[-Cynthia-]

And phantoms. That was kind of a key argument in my closer.

Yes, I obviously read about the phantoms, this was a quick summary of my vote, not an analyzation of every point.

I had several counter-arguments to this, and yet you only brought up one. Here’s one such example.

The main one would be that Lyon doesn’t ever need to be deployed to retain his offensive effectiveness, whereas Syrene does. Why does this matter? I can have a unit take Lyon’s place for any amount of time I please, and so that unit can directly thank Lyon for any CEXP he/she gains.

Not a particularly strong argument, since Lyon and Syrene are both highly likely to be fielded due to their high power levels. It would have been better if you could have demonstrated that the slots were in high competition, but at worst she's kicking out someone like Neimi who's no good anyway.

I conceded supports in the second post, so I have no idea what you’re talking about.

I said Mekkah won supports, so we agree.

I addressed that in my closer. Did you even read it?

I did, but it doesn't change the fact that the ferrying unit must often miss out on player and enemy phases to move Lyon around.

I spent a whole section talking about how difficult it is for Vanessa to even attack an enemy in earlygame, meaning she needs to wait for other units to weaken enemies for her. However, because of her movement lead, those other units have to catch up to her. Therefore, in the meantime, Vanessa can ferry Lyon. But that’s not all. I mentioned there would be situations where ferrying wouldn’t cost the team any movement, and even made a video showing how it was done.

Vanessa doesn't gain Exp from ferrying, she needs to attack to be able to improve, and there are several good weakeners on the team, such as Syrene post-rescue which Mekkah mentioned. It's true that there are ways to avoid losing Mov while ferrying Lyon, but they still lose phases and have to stay in a concentarted area.

And besides, it’s not just ferrying that cuts into Syrene’s movement lead. On several occasions I mentioned that Syrene’s need to heal occasionally limits her movement capabilities somewhat, that phantoms extend Lyon’s movement range, and that Syrene hurts the development of other teammates by not restricting her movement at all.

Mekkah showed that losing a player phase once in a while pales in comparsion to the Mov leads Syrene has every turn. Syrene also doesn't have to restrict her move with faster teammates, Vanessa/other fliers/most mounted units keep up just fine, and they usually make up the bulk of the player's army. The phantoms help somewhat, but they aren't as good as having Syrene in the same spot.

I don’t mind if you found Mekkah more convincing, but you didn’t even seem to acknowledge the intricacy behind any of the counter-arguments I made.

I find it horribly pretentious that you assume I didn't read your arguments merely because I didn't agree with them. I gave a summary of why I voted the way I did, not an analysis of every point made. I can stick to one liners if you prefer, but I find those rather lacking.

Edited June 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

I apologize for objecting to your judgement; I won’t comment about it any further. I still disagree with your reasoning, and I was going to make another huge post about it, but that would just make me look like a sore loser or an elitist or something, which is the last thing I’d want board members to think of me. No more judging backtalk from me anymore, I promise :P

[-Cynthia-]

I apologize for objecting to your judgement; I won’t comment about it any further. I still disagree with your reasoning, and I was going to make another huge post about it, but that would just make me look like a sore loser or an elitist or something, which is the last thing I’d want board members to think of me. No more judging backtalk from me anymore, I promise :P

You probably have some valid points, but I just called it like I saw it. Another voter might have an entirely different interpretation.

[Mekkah]

itt debates about a debate o_O

[Colonel M]

I'm actually going to vote Vykan here because he showed the infinite ways that Lyon can be a good unit: offensively, defensively, and supporting (not the actual supports: healing and phantom support). Weakening-wise, Lyon can do it with his little Phantom yadayada. Mekkah's argument seemed to revolve around flying utility, which at least went worked in Mekkah's favor, but otherwise the main argument was movement utility.

I thought Lyon's side seemed pretty broken tbh. 3 different ways of getting EXP, Summons, Healing, getting Naglfar as early as C9? Yeowch.

[Zkirsche]

Now, since i haven't played the game with these two units in it, I'm going to call it as i see it: As in, I'm going to judge who's the most convincing. Perhaps it's less biased this way, but whatever.

Mekkah did a good job in showing how syrene's flying utility is very useful in a chapter-by-chapter comparison. Not to mention, this seemed neglected by Vykan entirely, making Syrene look that much more useful in her chapters.

But then, Vykan showed how effective Lyon's healing utility is by showing her as one of - if not the best - healer available.

Statistically, Vykan did a better job too, I think he showed well enougth how Lyon > Syrene combat-wise.

Supports was conceded by Mekkah.

So, I'm voting Vykan.

Seemed to me that it was kind of an unfair match-up, though.

Edited June 14, 2009 by kirsche

[Mekkah]

Supports was conceded by Mekkah.

Actually, vykan conceded supports.