Kirsche (Haar) Vs Cynthia (Ike) FE10 short debate

[Zkirsche]

I’ll skip over the “fun” stuff and get straight to the point – Haar flies. Ike does not. In fact, Haar is the only flier until 3-7, when you get the hawks. What does that do for teh team? Haar’s canto allows him to rescue units and canto away, making him a better rescuer. Haar’s wyvern allows him to fly over obstacles like rivers (3-2 and 3-7), cliffs (3-4 and 3-5) and over fences (3-3). His flying utility makes him arguably the best unit in 3-3 as he can get to the supplies the quickest. It also allows units to pass over traps on the 3-11 bridge. Haar is arguably Ike’s superier in all of those chapters.

A cool thing about these units is that they have the same availability. Haar is in 2-P, 2-E and in all of the GM chapters from 3-2 onwards. Ike is in all 11 of the GM’s chapters before part 4. However, haar is better than Ike is in the 4 chapters where only one unit exists. Haar is the best unit in 2-P and is the only one capable of ORKOing the wyverns and come out OK against the boss. In 3-P, Ike has competition from Shinon, Gatrie, Titania and the majority of the enemies are just killed by the laguz enemeis anyway. In 2-E, Haar is arguably the best unit on this chapter, with teh hammer he can raep the armours and his awesome durability stops him from dying ever. He also doesn’t have gauge issues like Nealuchi and Mordecai. In 3-1, the GM’s were even better than before, with Shinon acquiring the crossbow for enemy phrase pwnage and Gatrie’s speed growth kicking in. Overall, Haar is more useful to the team in his part 2 chapters where Ike doesn’t exist than in Ike’s chapters where Haar doesn’t exist.

Since I’ve shown how Haar’s flying utility makes him better than Ike in many a part 3 chapter in which they share (3-2, 3-3, 3-4, 3-5, 3-7, 3-11), Ike would have to have a massive win to cancel it out. Does he have one, let’s see:

Level 13/0 Haar with a steel poleaxe/forged hand axe (Max MT): 47 Hp, 39/38 Atk, 21 As, 71 avo, 24 def, 7 res

Level 13/0 Ike with the Ettard/Wind edge, ‘C’ Mia: 45 HP, 38/32 Atk, 24 AS, 86 avo, 22 def, 7 res

Haar is better against the 2 swordmasters neitehr double due to dealing more damage, he’s also better against the 8 generals on this map thanks to the hammer and the 17 enemies Haar can double. That’s 27/51 enemies Haar is better than or equal to Ike offensively in 3-2 alone. Defensively, Haar is better than Ike against every enemy due to higher HP, def, canto, better 1-2 ranged options and mov to escape enemies with. Later on in the game (3-10), Haar and Ike can easily gain 1.33 levels per chapter, making him level 20/1:

20/1 Haar, stl poleaxe, C Mordecai: 53 HP, 49 Atk, 25 AS, 85 avo, 31 def, 12 res

20/0 Ike, Ettard, A Mia: 49 HP, 41 Atk, 26 AS, 107 avo, 24.5 def, 8 res

Enemies usually only have <=21 AS at this point, so Haar’s Atk lead matters. Not to mention that Haar has superier defences (4 HP, 6-7 def, 4 res > 22 avo). Now, skip ahead to part 4, and you’ll find that Ike is forced to fight with the greil army. Whereas haar can go over to Micaiah’s army to help with the desert, the greil army to fight with ike against the reinforcements or Tibarn’s army to help catch and kill Izuka and some laguz. Overall, his part 4 contribution is superier to that of ike’s. Come endgame, Haar will start to struggle to double, however, Haar can use the brave axe or the brave lance to double and kill everything. Pwnage.

Overall, Haar is better than Ike in most of the maps they are together in and the maps they aren’t together. Haar > Ike.

[-Cynthia-]

I’ll skip over the “fun” stuff and get straight to the point – Haar flies. Ike does not. In fact, Haar is the only flier until 3-7, when you get the hawks. What does that do for teh team? Haar’s canto allows him to rescue units and canto away, making him a better rescuer. Haar’s wyvern allows him to fly over obstacles like rivers (3-2 and 3-7), cliffs (3-4 and 3-5) and over fences (3-3). His flying utility makes him arguably the best unit in 3-3 as he can get to the supplies the quickest. It also allows units to pass over traps on the 3-11 bridge. Haar is arguably Ike’s superier in all of those chapters.

Haar's flight is not that large of an advantage in some of these chapters, like in 3-5 it's a defense chapter, so we really don't care if Haar can cross minor terrain obstacles. Haar becomes a lot less speical in 3-7 because he now has other flyers to compete with- and Ulki and Janaff are arguably his superiors due to reliable doubling. In 3-11 we're joined by all the Pegasus Knights, so that's even more fliers.

A cool thing about these units is that they have the same availability. Haar is in 2-P, 2-E and in all of the GM chapters from 3-2 onwards. Ike is in all 11 of the GM’s chapters before part 4. However, haar is better than Ike is in the 4 chapters where only one unit exists. Haar is the best unit in 2-P and is the only one capable of ORKOing the wyverns and come out OK against the boss. In 3-P, Ike has competition from Shinon, Gatrie, Titania and the majority of the enemies are just killed by the laguz enemeis anyway. In 2-E, Haar is arguably the best unit on this chapter, with teh hammer he can raep the armours and his awesome durability stops him from dying ever. He also doesn’t have gauge issues like Nealuchi and Mordecai. In 3-1, the GM’s were even better than before, with Shinon acquiring the crossbow for enemy phrase pwnage and Gatrie’s speed growth kicking in. Overall, Haar is more useful to the team in his part 2 chapters where Ike doesn’t exist than in Ike’s chapters where Haar doesn’t exist.

Haar doesn't show up until halfway through 2-P, and it's a defense chapter with barely any enemies regardless so he doesn't really help to clear it. In 2-E he has Thunder mages issues, they nearly OHKO him and can OHKO with a crit, since Haar's Lck is low enough to allow crits, Ike's chances of dying on 3-P or 3-1 are much lower. Ike is pretty good on 3-P and 3-1, so it's basically a tie.

Since I’ve shown how Haar’s flying utility makes him better than Ike in many a part 3 chapter in which they share (3-2, 3-3, 3-4, 3-5, 3-7, 3-11), Ike would have to have a massive win to cancel it out. Does he have one, let’s see:

Level 13/0 Haar with a steel poleaxe/forged hand axe (Max MT): 47 Hp, 39/38 Atk, 21 As, 71 avo, 24 def, 7 res

Level 13/0 Ike with the Ettard/Wind edge, ‘C’ Mia: 45 HP, 38/32 Atk, 24 AS, 86 avo, 22 def, 7 res

Haar is better against the 2 swordmasters neitehr double due to dealing more damage, he’s also better against the 8 generals on this map thanks to the hammer and the 17 enemies Haar can double. That’s 27/51 enemies Haar is better than or equal to Ike offensively in 3-2 alone. Defensively, Haar is better than Ike against every enemy due to higher HP, def, canto, better 1-2 ranged options and mov to escape enemies with. Later on in the game (3-10), Haar and Ike can easily gain 1.33 levels per chapter, making him level 20/1:

You didn't consider PoR transfers. Ike has arguably the highest chance of a transfer of anyone in PoR, since he must live until the end and every stat point counts when it comes to defeating Ashnard. Haar has a negligible chance of capping each stat, while Ike has a good chance to cap Str, Spd ,Skl and Def, not to mention we might want to pump him up with a Serpah Robe to cap his HP or something. Here's a new comparison(Str,Spd,Def transfer).

Level 13/0 Haar with a steel poleaxe/forged hand axe (Max MT): 47 Hp, 39/38 Atk, 21 As, 71 avo, 24 def, 7 res

Level 13/0 Ike with the Ettard/Wind edge, ‘C’ Mia: 45 HP, 40/34 Atk, 26 AS, 90 avo, 24 def, 7 res

Ike deals more damage to every unit on the map, not to mention he doubles everything but the fastest SM's. He has better durability as well since 19 Avo> 2 HP. He gives out a better support bonus, since everyone likes an Earth partner, Wind is a subpar affinity. His main offense is free, since Ettard is free, while Haar costs gold to keep armed. He's forced on every map, so he doesn't take up a deployment slot, and he has a high chance for a crit because of high Skl, Ettard's crit bomus, and his 4+ Bond Supports on the team. Ike also isn't weak to Thunder magic and can use the Wyrmslayer to kill Dracoknights. He's beating Haar pretty thoroughly IMO.

20/1 Haar, stl poleaxe, C Mordecai: 53 HP, 49 Atk, 25 AS, 85 avo, 31 def, 12 res

20/0 Ike, Ettard, A Mia: 49 HP, 41 Atk, 26 AS, 107 avo, 24.5 def, 8 res

Enemies usually only have <=21 AS at this point, so Haar’s Atk lead matters. Not to mention that Haar has superier defences (4 HP, 6-7 def, 4 res > 22 avo).

This is a comparison for the very small window in which Haar is promoted and Ike is not, perhaps 2 chapters at most. What about after Ike promotes?

20/3 Haar, stl poleaxe, C Mordecai: 53 HP, 50 Atk, 25 AS, 86 avo, 31 def, 13 res

20/0 Ike, Ragnell, A Mia: 54 HP, 49 Atk, 30 AS, 115 avo, 29 def, 12 res

Ike has permanent 1-2 range, and still has free offense, forced deployment, and better support bonuses. He's beating Haar in offense (5 Spd>1 Mt). I would also say Ike is more durable, 29 Avo and 1 HP as compared to 2 Def and 1 Res.

Now, skip ahead to part 4, and you’ll find that Ike is forced to fight with the greil army. Whereas haar can go over to Micaiah’s army to help with the desert, the greil army to fight with ike against the reinforcements or Tibarn’s army to help catch and kill Izuka and some laguz.

Route choice doesn't matter all that much since each character can only go one route and Ike is still superior to Haar statistically.

Overall, his part 4 contribution is superier to that of ike’s. Come endgame, Haar will start to struggle to double, however, Haar can use the brave axe or the brave lance to double and kill everything. Pwnage.

Ike is crushing Haar by Endgame. He doesn't take up a unit slot, which is huge since you can only bring 10, he hits the magic speed number of 34 that Haar misses, he's required for the BK and Ashera fights, he can use the Wyrmslayer against dragons, and he's better against spirits due to 1-2 range and more Avo. As for Haar using the Brave Axe, this often brings his Atk power down to unacceptable levels. A Haar who's maxed Str can't even damage Dheg with the Brave Axe, for example(49 Mt vs. 50 Def). A max Str Ike with a Wyrmslayer, on the other hand, deals 20*2= 40 dmg to Dheg in one round.

So basically Haar's 2 chapters are slightly better than Ike's 2 chapters. Ike then beats him from then on(about 7 chapters) until Haar promotes and beats Ike for 2 chapters. Ike then beats Haar in 2 chapters and 4-E which is another 1-5 chapters. Ike wins.

[Zkirsche]

*Flying = no advantage*

Haar can kill the boss in just a few turns, however, Ike can’t do that. Ike takes much longer. Haar can also fly over the ledges and canto back. Haar’s flying is generally useful in helping him kill enemies.

Jus t because there are other units that can do what Haar does doesn’t erase the fact that haar can do it and Ike can’t. Besides, in every chapter before 3-7, haar performs better due to flying. There, his flying utility is incredibly useful since he’s the only flyer before 3-7.

*Ike vs Haar comparison in chapters where only one exist*

Haar is the only one who can ORKO in 2-P and come out on top. He can solo the whole map from turn 4 onwards. The fact that there are less enemies to hurt/capture Elincia/Leanne helps the completion of the chapter.

There are 6 thunder sages on this chapter, does being bad durably agianst 6/93 enemies equate to being bad durably overall? No. Haar can easily use his flight to evade said thunder sages anyway, so they’re not a problem. Haar is better durably.

*PoR transfers*

Not everyone owns PoR, you know.

Besides, Ike only has a 20% chance of capping defence. He does however have a chance of capping Skl, Spd and Str. Without the Def. Haar is better defensively as 2 Hp, 2 Def, Great 1-2 Range and 2 more mov > 29 Avo.

Haar not needing bonuses to be better just shows how much better he is.

Haar Still has better ranged options, even with the bonus, and the Wyrmslayer is wanted by every sword wielding unit – Mia included.

Crit? Haar has access to 2 killer weapons.

*Stuff about Ike after Ragnell*

You’re Still using PoR bonuses, I see (Funny, you gave him HP and RES. Before, you gave him neither).So let’s check out the REAL stats:

Level 20/3 Haar, steel poleaxe/forged hand axe, ‘B’ Mordecai:

53 HP, 50/49 Atk, 25 AS, 88 avo, 32 def, 14 res

Level 20/0 Ike, Ragnell, ‘A’ Mia:

49 HP, 47 Atk, 26 AS, 107 Avo, 29.5 Def, 8 Res

Now, whilst Haar may cost the team stuff, it’s not like the team are running out of gold anyway – Sigrun just gave you 20000 gold and you got the funds from the CRK, too – including what’s left of the 10000 gold they got in an info conversation. Not long after this, the 4 teams converge and join all their money together. Then you can sell all the useless stuff you get in part 4 (The SS rank tomes = tonnes of money. It’s not like the magic users are good anyway) for even MORE cash. Haar costing the team moeny? Guess what: The team doesn’t care.

Now, you’ll see that Haar has better 1-2 range (4 atk > 1 AS) and still retains a nice mov lead to go over the bridges/trees in 3-11/E. Haar is better offensively.

Defensively, Haar can actually retreat effectively from enemies and 2 Def + 4 HP + 6 Res > 19 Avo anyway.

So... they’re still not that close even after Ike gets Ragnell, they’re closer, yes, but Ike hasn’t surpassed haar.

*Stuff about route choice*

They may only go down one route, but Haar has freedom of choice, Ike doesn’t. What happens if You’re not using Jill/Ulki/Janaff? Then 4-3 becomes a pain. What if Titania is RNG screwed, Haar can help out there, Want to clear the swamp chapter faster but worried about Elincia’s fail durability? Haar’s your man. Of those scenarios, Ike can only help with the Titania incident. Notice how Haar has much more flexibility than Ike.

Level 20/1 Ike, Ragnell, ‘A’ Mia: 53 HP, 49 Atk, 28 AS, 111 Avo, 31.5 Def, 12 Res

Level 20/5 Haar, steel poleaxe/forged hand axe, ‘A’ Mordecai:

54 HP, 52/51, 26 AS, 79 Avo, 35 Def, 14 Res

Offensively, Haar wins due to better 1-2 range options (42/58 enemies in 4-P can be doubled with 26 AS. So Haar is very good in this chapter.) and higher mov and flying (Useful for 4-P for Thickets, 4-1 for Sandbags, 4-2 for Trees, 4-3 for Desert, 4-4 for ledges, 4-5 for SwamP, 4-E-1 and 3 due to holes)

Defensively, Haar has 1 HP, 3-4 def and 2 Res compared to Ike’s 32 Avo,which is smaller if Haar went with a group that has authority bonuses.

Skip ahead to an endgame comparison:

Level 20/11 Haar, Brave axe, ‘A’ Mordecai: 56 HP, 51 Atk, 28 AS, 100.5 Avo, 38 Def, 15 Res

Level 20/7 Ike, Ragnell, ‘A’ Mia: 57 HP, 52 Atk, 30 AS, 116.5 Avo, 34 Def, 13 Res

Offensively, Haar wins engame. Why? He has higher move in E-4 and E-5 whilst ORKOing everything on the map (Spirits have 20-22 Def and 38-40 HP) . Then in E-3, he has essentially 4* the attack power, far outwieghing Ike’s 1 Atk lead. iN E-1 and E-2 they’re essentially equal, E-2 is a stupidly quick chapter and in E-1 there are generals for hammer abuse by both. If anything, Haar wins in E-1 due to higher mov and flying over gaps.

Defensively, Haar wins everything save avo, which he only loses by 16. He has a 4 Def lead, 2 res lead, too. Is 1 HP + 16 Avo > 4 Def + 2 Res? No, they may be equal though. But then Haar’s ability to outrun enemies ultimately puts him on top.

On another note, Stun > Aether as it activates more often and takes up less capacity.

Haar > Ike.

[-Cynthia-]

Haar can kill the boss in just a few turns, however, Ike can’t do that. Ike takes much longer. Haar can also fly over the ledges and canto back. Haar’s flying is generally useful in helping him kill enemies.

Haar has issues killing Lombroso by himself. Lombroso constantly is surrounded by 4 Paladins, so Haar is either going to have to kill the Paladins, or attack Lombroso with a Hand Axe. Haar can't ORKO the Paladins, since he doesn't double yet unless he's overleveled, and only barely 2HKOs them anyway. Level --/15 Haar with a Hand Axe is only 4HKOing Lombroso, so the chance of Haar being able to kill the boss before other characters arrive is small.

Jus t because there are other units that can do what Haar does doesn’t erase the fact that haar can do it and Ike can’t. Besides, in every chapter before 3-7, haar performs better due to flying. There, his flying utility is incredibly useful since he’s the only flyer before 3-7.

Haar would perform better if he had the same statistical spread as Ike. However, Ike has a significant AS lead on Haar. Let's assume both Ike and Haar get one level in their chapters before 3-2.

Haar only doubles 5 out of the 52 enemies(including reinforcements) on 3-2. Ike, on the other hand, doubles 48 out of the 52 enemies, 50 out of 52 enemies with a transfer. This means Ike has nearly double Haar's offense on nearly every enemy on the map. It's not like these leads get any worse over time, since Ike has both a higher speed growth and higher speed caps. Two of the enemies Haar doubles are bishops, which they both ORKO, so even if Haar does have an Atk lead due to Ike having no transfers, he's inferior offensively against almost every enemy on the map.

Haar's flying utility diminishes over time. It's not useful at all in 3-8, Haar loses Mov here since it's an indoor map. 3-10 and 3-E lack significant terrain obstacles. 4-E, where Ike already crushes Haar, Haar's ability to fly is rather trivial since the maps are so small and there's no need to fly over the gaps.

Haar is the only one who can ORKO in 2-P and come out on top. He can solo the whole map from turn 4 onwards. The fact that there are less enemies to hurt/capture Elincia/Leanne helps the completion of the chapter.

Only marginally, since it's easy enough just to sit and wait for the enemies to come, and then just kill with Marcia/Nealuchi.

There are 6 thunder sages on this chapter, does being bad durably agianst 6/93 enemies equate to being bad durably overall? No. Haar can easily use his flight to evade said thunder sages anyway, so they’re not a problem. Haar is better durably.

Better durably than whom? Brom, Mordecai, Geoffrey, Kieran etc. don't face the risk of being OHKOd by any enemy or 2HKOd by any enemy either. If Haar is holding a chokepoint(the standard way to play 2-E), he can't simply fly away every time a thunder mage appears.

Not everyone owns PoR, you know.

Besides, Ike only has a 20% chance of capping defence. He does however have a chance of capping Skl, Spd and Str. Without the Def. Haar is better defensively as 2 Hp, 2 Def, Great 1-2 Range and 2 more mov > 29 Avo.

Not everyone has PoR, but if they do, Ike is the most likely character in the game to cap stats (except maybe Giffca). Though even without transfers Ike's AS lead is substantial.

Ike has a 46% chance of capping Def as shown here. That's just his natural chance to cap, if we add in +Def bands, his chance to cap Def becomes quite high.

Haar not needing bonuses to be better just shows how much better he is.

Except while Ike's doubling everything but SM's even without a transfer, while Haar struggles to double anything.

Haar Still has better ranged options, even with the bonus, and the Wyrmslayer is wanted by every sword wielding unit – Mia included.

There is the possibility of having 2 Wyrmslayers(Illyana can ferry one over) and Mia is his only competition for swords in 3-2. Even if there's only one, Ike and Mia should be close since they're support partners, and can trade it around. For Endgame there are 5 available, so unless we're using a massive amount of sword users Ike getting one is far from preposterous.

Crit? Haar has access to 2 killer weapons.

If Haar is using a Killer while Ike is using Ettard, Ike beats Haar in Atk even without transfers. Also, Boyd, Brom, or Titania might want the Killer Axe, Ike is the only one who can use Ettard. The Killer Axe also only has 30 uses compared to Ettard's 50.

Now, whilst Haar may cost the team stuff, it’s not like the team are running out of gold anyway – Sigrun just gave you 20000 gold and you got the funds from the CRK, too – including what’s left of the 10000 gold they got in an info conversation. Not long after this, the 4 teams converge and join all their money together. Then you can sell all the useless stuff you get in part 4 (The SS rank tomes = tonnes of money. It’s not like the magic users are good anyway) for even MORE cash. Haar costing the team moeny? Guess what: The team doesn’t care.

It's still worse than Ike costing no money for his offense. Also, if Haar wants to keep permanent 1-2 range from 3-11 on to keep pace with Ike's Ragnell, the cost of the forged hand axes is going to add up, they're only 25 uses each.

Now, you’ll see that Haar has better 1-2 range (4 atk > 1 AS) and still retains a nice mov lead to go over the bridges/trees in 3-11/E. Haar is better offensively.

Defensively, Haar can actually retreat effectively from enemies and 2 Def + 4 HP + 6 Res > 19 Avo anyway.

So... they’re still not that close even after Ike gets Ragnell, they’re closer, yes, but Ike hasn’t surpassed haar.

When does Ike need to retreat from enemies? I could see Haar running away from thunder mages, but in general both are so durable that Canto allowing you to 'escape" is hardly useful here.

Note that post promotion, Haar only has 2 Atk as opposed to Ike's 3 AS lead, they tie Def(or Ike has a lead) and HP and 23 Avo>2 Res. So after the very short window in which Haar is promoted and Ike is not, Ike regains his leads.

They may only go down one route, but Haar has freedom of choice, Ike doesn’t. What happens if You’re not using Jill/Ulki/Janaff? Then 4-3 becomes a pain. What if Titania is RNG screwed, Haar can help out there, Want to clear the swamp chapter faster but worried about Elincia’s fail durability? Haar’s your man. Of those scenarios, Ike can only help with the Titania incident. Notice how Haar has much more flexibility than Ike.

Naesala is still forced in Micaiah's route, as is Skrimir, plus we can take almost any other flyer/laguz. I suposoe Haar is somewhat useful if the player decided not use other flyers/laguz for some unknown reason, but even then Skrimir and Naesala can clear the map by themselves. It still boils down to Haar only being able to be on route anyway, and Ike is better than Haar since he doubles more often and has constant 1-2 range.

Level 20/1 Ike, Ragnell, ‘A’ Mia: 53 HP, 49 Atk, 28 AS, 111 Avo, 31.5 Def, 12 Res

Level 20/5 Haar, steel poleaxe/forged hand axe, ‘A’ Mordecai:

54 HP, 52/51, 26 AS, 79 Avo, 35 Def, 14 Res

Offensively, Haar wins due to better 1-2 range options (42/58 enemies in 4-P can be doubled with 26 AS. So Haar is very good in this chapter.) and higher mov and flying (Useful for 4-P for Thickets, 4-1 for Sandbags, 4-2 for Trees, 4-3 for Desert, 4-4 for ledges, 4-5 for SwamP, 4-E-1 and 3 due to holes)

Better 1-2 ranged options? I wasn't aware that Hand Axes were suddenly better than Ragnell, they only have less hit, cost more, have less uses, and less Mt.

Skip ahead to an endgame comparison:

Level 20/11 Haar, Brave axe, ‘A’ Mordecai: 56 HP, 51 Atk, 28 AS, 100.5 Avo, 38 Def, 15 Res

Level 20/7 Ike, Ragnell, ‘A’ Mia: 57 HP, 52 Atk, 30 AS, 116.5 Avo, 34 Def, 13 Res

Offensively, Haar wins engame. Why? He has higher move in E-4 and E-5 whilst ORKOing everything on the map (Spirits have 20-22 Def and 38-40 HP) . Then in E-3, he has essentially 4* the attack power, far outwieghing Ike’s 1 Atk lead. iN E-1 and E-2 they’re essentially equal, E-2 is a stupidly quick chapter and in E-1 there are generals for hammer abuse by both. If anything, Haar wins in E-1 due to higher mov and flying over gaps.

Why are we bringing Mordecai to Endgame? His speed cap doesn't let him double auras, and we have tons of laguz who outclass him by this point (Nailah, Caineghis, Tibarn, Nailah, Naesala), most of them don't have to spend turn 1 using a stone either.

In E-1 Ike is a lot more likely to be able to double the Generals than Haar is, and they both can ORKO with the hammer. It's a small map and flying over the gaps has no real practical purpose.

In E-2, Ike is the only way to clear said chapter, which is a pretty huge win over Haar. The whole point of the game is to clear the chapters.

In E-3, 4* Ike's attack power? Let's say Ike is 20/13 at this time, Haar is 20/16. (I have to use NM stats for Dragons btw, but it doesn't really matter).

Ike has 70 Atk with the Wyrmslayer.

Reds:70- 34= 36*2= 72 dmg, which is a ORKO

Haar has 49 Atk with the Brave Axe.

Reds: 49-34= 15*4= 60 dmg, not a ORKO

They both ORKO Whites, and Ike does better defensively against them, they have nearly equal Res but Ike has a large Avo lead.

Ike also can easily counter at 1-2 range with Ragnell, Haar can switch to a forged hand axe (how many of these does he get anyway?), but then his Atk then takes a nosedive.

And again, max Str Ike does 44 Atk to Degh with Wyrmslayer, Haar does 0 with the Brave Axe. Since killing Degh is how we clear the chapter, this is rather important.

In E-4 and E-5 Ike can counter spirits with Ragnell, while Haar has to keep using the inferior hand axes. Haar also doesn't ORKO Spirits on cover tiles, Ike doubles them so he can use Ragnell and outdamage Haar.

On E-5 Ike is Haar's superior, because auras exist. He's better against spirits too, since he has 1-2 range.

Ike has 56 Atk with Ragnell by now, Haar has 50 with the Brave Axe(with a +atk support I was generous to give him). Auras have 30 Def, not including whether they're on a tile or not. Ike doubles them with Nasir's help, Haar doesn't, so Ike does 56-30= 52 damage in a round, while Haar only does 50-30= 40 damage in a round. That's a significant difference.

Ike also doubles Ashera with Nasir. He deals 56-35= 42 damage, while Haar deals 50-35= 30 damage. Ike is also necessary to land the final hit on Ashera, so this is yet another case where Ike is a lot better against the boss, and thus clears the chapter.

Defensively, Haar wins everything save avo, which he only loses by 16. He has a 4 Def lead, 2 res lead, too. Is 1 HP + 16 Avo > 4 Def + 2 Res? No, they may be equal though. But then Haar’s ability to outrun enemies ultimately puts him on top.

Ike also has more reliable 1-2 range (more powerful, better hit, no cost, unbreakable etc.), which easily gives him a durability lead over Haar due to attack freedom.

On another note, Stun > Aether as it activates more often and takes up less capacity.

Haar > Ike.

Aether heals, Stun doesn't, and Haar's Canto makes up the capacity difference anyway. Ike>Haar.

Oh and I might as well mention Earth is essentially twice as good as Wind, so Ike beats Haar in supports handily.

BTW, for the viewers at home this isn't a short debate anymore because I fail at not being tl;dr.

Edited June 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

I'm glad this isn't a short debate anymore, limiting my posts to 1 or 2 pages was tough.

Haar has issues killing Lombroso by himself. Lombroso constantly is surrounded by 4 Paladins, so Haar is either going to have to kill the Paladins, or attack Lombroso with a Hand Axe. Haar can't ORKO the Paladins, since he doesn't double yet unless he's overleveled, and only barely 2HKOs them anyway. Level --/15 Haar with a Hand Axe is only 4HKOing Lombroso, so the chance of Haar being able to kill the boss before other characters arrive is small.

Doesn’t matter. Why? The horseslayer. You get it in 2-3 and it’s unlikely to have broken since your not supposed to kill enemies in 2-3 for the bexp and there are no paladins in 2-E. Then, 3-3 and 3-4 paladins are still underlevelled and it’s not going to break in 3-2 unless you abused it.

Besides, If we were to give a level 16 haar 1 level of bexp, it’s likely that his speed is 23, enougth to double the sword pally’s, the faster ones. You think that’s unlikely? All that it requires is 3 levels in 3-2, 3-3 and 3-4 and a level of bexp before 3-5. Unthinkable? No. He only needs 3700 bexp to level up, a reasonable amount of bexp by this time is 11825. That means Haar only needs less than a third of the bexp in part 3, even less if you were more efficient or included part 2 bexp in that. All this builds up and Haar getting a level of bexp isn’t absurd.

Haar only doubles 5 out of the 52 enemies(including reinforcements) on 3-2. Ike, on the other hand, doubles 48 out of the 52 enemies, 50 out of 52 enemies with a transfer. This means Ike has nearly double Haar's offense on nearly every enemy on the map. It's not like these leads get any worse over time, since Ike has both a higher speed growth and higher speed caps. Two of the enemies Haar doubles are bishops, which they both ORKO, so even if Haar does have an Atk lead due to Ike having no transfers, he's inferior offensively against almost every enemy on the map.

With a realistic level, as in level 13, Haar has 21 AS, which is enougth to double the 7 sages and many a general and paladin. However, Haar perfoms better generally against the pallys and generals due to hammer/horseslayer. Ike can use neither weapon. Then, when you factor better 1-2 ramnge, bigger mov and flight, he doesn’t fall behind offensively against those that Ike doubles that Haar can’t or doesn’t get a bonus against – 13/52 enemies.

Haar > Ike against the majority of enemies (39/52 enemeis)

Haar > Ike.

Only marginally, since it's easy enough just to sit and wait for the enemies to come, and then just kill with Marcia/Nealuchi.

Is that exp efficient, though? Haar makes good use of all the cexp available. However, with you’re strategy, they’ll be a few enemies left, meaning less cexp.

Not using haar makes the team worse than using Haar. Thus Haar is beneficial to the team.

Better durably than whom? Brom, Mordecai, Geoffrey, Kieran etc. don't face the risk of being OHKOd by any enemy or 2HKOd by any enemy either. If Haar is holding a chokepoint(the standard way to play 2-E), he can't simply fly away every time a thunder mage appears.

Elincia and Marcia do from Bowgun users and bow users.

Mordy does untransformed.

Brom has a hammer general to be weary of, too.

Then you have to consider that Haar has a better HP/def/Avo combo than most of those than most of those:

Haar: 46/23/68 HP/Def/Avo

Elincia: 36/21/88 HP/Def/Avo

Marcia: 35/17/70 HP/Def/Avo

Mordy: 52/32/66 HP/Def/Avo

Brom: 38/22/63 HP/Def/Avo

Kieran: 42/19/71 HP/Def/Avo

Geoffrey: 37/18/74 HP/Def/Avo

The only one who’s better than him is Mordy, and he has a transformation gauge to worry about. Elincia’s 20 avo is worse than Haar’s 10 HP and 2 Def, the rest seem fairly obvious.

Then, you have to realise that it’s only 10 enemies. With Elincia and leanne, healing him after an attack isn’t too unlikely.

So overalll, Haar’s one of your most, if not the most, durable units on your team.

Not everyone has PoR, but if they do, Ike is the most likely character in the game to cap stats (except maybe Giffca). Though even without transfers Ike's AS lead is substantial.

Ike has a 46% chance of capping Def as shown here. That's just his natural chance to cap, if we add in +Def bands, his chance to cap Def becomes quite high.

What unreliable figures. Ike has a 22% chance of not capping Speed, 44% chance of not capping skl, 41% chance of not capping strength, 54% chance of not capping Def, 92% chance of not capping res and <1% chance of capping HP. Funny how you gave him a Res and a HP boost in one of your later comparisons.

This isn’t reliable. Ignoring Res and HP (Stupidly unlikely), the chance that he doesn’t cap speed, strength and def is ~5%. The chance that he doesn’t cap either speed and def is ~12%. And the chance that he doesn’t cap speed and strength is 9%.

The chance that he doesn’t cap either speed or strength is 54%, the chance that he doesn’t cap either speed or defence is 64%.

Reliable victories > Unreliable victories.

There is the possibility of having 2 Wyrmslayers(Illyana can ferry one over) and Mia is his only competition for swords in 3-2. Even if there's only one, Ike and Mia should be close since they're support partners, and can trade it around. For Endgame there are 5 available, so unless we're using a massive amount of sword users Ike getting one is far from preposterous.

That still leaves the 39/52 enemies Haar is better against (SM’s, generals, pallys and magic users).

If Haar is using a Killer while Ike is using Ettard, Ike beats Haar in Atk even without transfers. Also, Boyd, Brom, or Titania might want the Killer Axe, Ike is the only one who can use Ettard. The Killer Axe also only has 30 uses compared to Ettard's 50.

Fair enougth. Haar’s better elsewhere, though.

It's still worse than Ike costing no money for his offense. Also, if Haar wants to keep permanent 1-2 range from 3-11 on to keep pace with Ike's Ragnell, the cost of the forged hand axes is going to add up, they're only 25 uses each.

I could make them tie 1-2 range for even less cost if you like. Hell, let’s just give him 50 Atk with it. This hand axe costs 1625 gold. Considering the gold sigrun gives you and the CRK’s give you, and later on the DB give you, that’s barely denting the gold supply of the team.

I mean, you can even add some hit and it barely affects it as 2625 gold is still very small in comparison to what the team has.

Even if you were to use 2 every 3 chapters, that’s only 10 used and it might even be less than 2 every 3 chapters as well. If we exclude 4-E, he has used 8 of them. That’s only 21000 gold. Considering the amount of gold you get over the course of the game. That’s not much. A small advantage for Ike, if one at all.

When does Ike need to retreat from enemies? I could see Haar running away from thunder mages, but in general both are so durable that Canto allowing you to 'escape" is hardly useful here.

What if ike takes one too many attacks from mages? What happens if they’re durability screwed? Etcetera. There are various scenarios which can lead to Ike needing to escape for a breather, in whcih case, haar performs better.

Note that post promotion, Haar only has 2 Atk as opposed to Ike's 3 AS lead, they tie Def(or Ike has a lead) and HP and 23 Avo>2 Res. So after the very short window in which Haar is promoted and Ike is not, Ike regains his leads.

Haar is likely to be promoted by chapter 10 with 1.33 levels per chapter. Chapter 8 with 1.6 levels. That’s ~3 chapters in which haar is promoted and Ike is not. Haar has already dominated part 3.

As for those statistics, I think you missed this part:

Offensively, Haar wins due to better 1-2 range options (42/58 enemies in 4-P can be doubled with 26 AS. So Haar is very good in this chapter.) and higher mov and flying (Useful for 4-P for Thickets, 4-1 for Sandbags, 4-2 for Trees, 4-3 for Desert, 4-4 for ledges, 4-5 for SwamP, 4-E-1 and 3 due to holes)

Defensively, Haar has 1 HP, 3-4 def and 2 Res compared to Ike’s 32 Avo,which is smaller if Haar went with a group that has authority bonuses.

Naesala is still forced in Micaiah's route, as is Skrimir, plus we can take almost any other flyer/laguz. I suposoe Haar is somewhat useful if the player decided not use other flyers/laguz for some unknown reason, but even then Skrimir and Naesala can clear the map by themselves. It still boils down to Haar only being able to be on route anyway, and Ike is better than Haar since he doubles more often and has constant 1-2 range.

Try completing it in 12 turns with just Naesala and Skrmir, it’s hard, to say the least. Haar helps out with his flying utility even if there are other fliers there. Jill may want to go down Tibarn’s route for the exp or Ike’s route to keep the support with Volug. Ulki/Janaff /Naesala are all negatively affected by the masses of crossbow users on this chapter.

Better 1-2 ranged options? I wasn't aware that Hand Axes were suddenly better than Ragnell, they only have less hit, cost more, have less uses, and less Mt.

All irrelevant advantages – the team has plenty of money, so sparing a few pennies for a forged hand axe is fine. Then, when used by Haar, they’re better than Ike. The tool means nothing if the user weilding the tool is bad with it. In this case, Haar is better with his tool than Ike is with his tool.

Why are we bringing Mordecai to Endgame? His speed cap doesn't let him double auras, and we have tons of laguz who outclass him by this point (Nailah, Caineghis, Tibarn, Nailah, Naesala), most of them don't have to spend turn 1 using a stone either.

I can be mean on Mia as well as the majority of those (I liked how you said Nailah twice =p) are better than Mia as well. Durably and offensively.

Besides, it can really be any water support, including Ulki. Who’s a good unit.

In E-1 Ike is a lot more likely to be able to double the Generals than Haar is, and they both can ORKO with the hammer. It's a small map and flying over the gaps has no real practical purpose.

NO practical purposes? I beg to differ, the enemies on the paths to the sides block out the long range mages on the paths. Flying makes it that much easier to kill them quickly.

If they both ORKO with the hammer, then surely they tie offence?

For your E-2 comparison, I suppose I’ll have to concede.

In E-3 most of the wyrmslayers are likely to have broken by now and every sword user wants them – Mia, Zihark, Gatrie and Titania included.

In E-4, the hand axes aren’t inferier. A forged hand axe has 14 Atk, this means a 20/10 Atk Haar with a water support has 54 Atk. A level 20/11 Ike with a fire support and ragnell has 54 Atk – they tie. And before you go “He can be higher” who cares? 54 attack is enougth to 2RKO, and since Ike isn’t 20/17 yet (2.67 levels per chapter, counting 4-E-2 as a whole chapter. That’s stupidly big.) he can’t double and ORKO Spirits without Nasir’s help. Now, you might argue that Haar can’t double spirits without Nasir’s help, but he can easily get 24 levels in 17.5 chapters (Counting E-2 as half a chapter) as that’s a mere 1.37 levels per chapter. At level 20/15, Haar has 29 AS.

I might add taht since Ike isn’t 20/17, he can’t double Aura’s either. Meaning he deals 26 damage compared to Haar’s 40.

Ike also doubles Ashera with Nasir. He deals 56-35= 42 damage, while Haar deals 50-35= 30 damage. Ike is also necessary to land the final hit on Ashera, so this is yet another case where Ike is a lot better against the boss, and thus clears the chapter.

Funny how Ike still needs the help of valuable resources to be better than Haar. People want the spaces around Nasir. Since you’re giving him all tehse resources, why not give Haar a speedwing? Oops, now a 20/15 Haar can Double Ashera with Nasir’s help too, but unlike Ike, he can canto away so anotehr unit can take the spot he was in. Haar rocks.

@Bold: This means nothing. An 11/1 Ike with ragnell deals 17 damage to Ashera. Which means that you’re giving Ike credit for everyone else’s handywork as you literally have to attack Ashera with 17 HP. Is Ike himself helping you clear the boss? No. We might as well give him credit for seizing places as well, as it’s the same thing – Ike does nothing except the final command, which is not an advantage.

Ike also has more reliable 1-2 range (more powerful, better hit, no cost, unbreakable etc.), which easily gives him a durability lead over Haar due to attack freedom.

More powerful? No. I’ve shown time and again how Ike is equal to or worse at 1-2 range. The cost means nothing and neitehr does breaking. Haar doesn’t lose the hand axe taht quickly. And after E-2 this stops being an advantage as the enemies can counter. Will his forged hand axe break by then? No. Thus, Haar is better.

Aether heals, Stun doesn't, and Haar's Canto makes up the capacity difference anyway. Ike>Haar.

So? Stun kills more often. And Haar’s durable enougth against most enemies not to worry about healing himself anyway, and the occasional heal isn’t a negative for him in any way since everyone gets healed occasionally – including Ike.

You failed to counter the part where Stun activates more. Skl% is effectively twice as good as skl/2%.

Oh and I might as well mention Earth is essentially twice as good as Wind, so Ike beats Haar in supports handily.

Haar can use canto to stay in his partners support bonus range, however, Making him much more flexible when supporting someone. So Ike’s better affinity means little as he can’t use it as effectively as haar can. So let’s say they tie support-wise.

So.....

+ Haar’s part 2 performance beats Ike’s 3-P and 3-1 performances.

+ Haar beats Ike’s early part 1 due to flying utility and effective weapons.

+ Haar beats Ike’s late game performance due to flying utility, mastery, and better stats.

+ Haar beats Ike pre-endgame due to flexibility, flying utility and better stats.

+ Haar beats Ike in 4-E due to more damage.

- Ike has a better affinity.

- Ike costs less

- Ike is better with unlikely transfer bonuses.

- Ike is required to beat game.

5 > 4.

Haar > Ike.

[-Cynthia-]

Doesn’t matter. Why? The horseslayer. You get it in 2-3 and it’s unlikely to have broken since your not supposed to kill enemies in 2-3 for the bexp and there are no paladins in 2-E. Then, 3-3 and 3-4 paladins are still underlevelled and it’s not going to break in 3-2 unless you abused it.

But if Haar uses the Horseslayer, he's denying a resource to Oscar/Nephenee/Gatrie, plus it was probably used somewhat in 2-3, Marcia killing the Horseslayer guy for example. Having the Horseslayer shipped over to the GM's also denies the CRK use of it until 3-9, a level with lots of Paladins.

Besides, If we were to give a level 16 haar 1 level of bexp, it’s likely that his speed is 23, enougth to double the sword pally’s, the faster ones. You think that’s unlikely? All that it requires is 3 levels in 3-2, 3-3 and 3-4 and a level of bexp before 3-5. Unthinkable? No. He only needs 3700 bexp to level up, a reasonable amount of bexp by this time is 11825. That means Haar only needs less than a third of the bexp in part 3, even less if you were more efficient or included part 2 bexp in that. All this builds up and Haar getting a level of bexp isn’t absurd.

Haar doesn't receive that much CEXP generally, since lvl 13 is higher than average enemy level of 8-10. That also is a significant portion of BEXP, if we're using 6 units from the GM's, Haar's taking about double his share.

With a realistic level, as in level 13, Haar has 21 AS, which is enougth to double the 7 sages and many a general and paladin. However, Haar perfoms better generally against the pallys and generals due to hammer/horseslayer. Ike can use neither weapon. Then, when you factor better 1-2 ramnge, bigger mov and flight, he doesn’t fall behind offensively against those that Ike doubles that Haar can’t or doesn’t get a bonus against – 13/52 enemies.

Haar > Ike against the majority of enemies (39/52 enemeis)

Haar > Ike.

Even if we give Haar 2 levels for his Part 2 chapters, his speed is only 20.6, so there's a fair chance he doesn't even reach 21 Spd. Also, the Horseslayer is wanted by Oscar/Nephenee/Gatrie, the Hammer by Boyd/Brom/Titania/Gatrie, he's denying them resources by using it, Ike just needs his Ettard no one else can use.

You might call foul and say I had Ike using the Wyrmslayer on the same chapter. However, there are 2 possible Wyrmslayers at this point, only one Horseslayer. Additionally, Ike is only competing with Mia, who he shares Mov with and wants to be close to to build support. If Haar is using his flying utility, he won't be in range to trade with whoever else might want those weapons.

Is that exp efficient, though? Haar makes good use of all the cexp available. However, with you’re strategy, they’ll be a few enemies left, meaning less cexp.

Not using Haar makes the team worse than using Haar. Thus Haar is beneficial to the team.

He is, but Ike is also beneficial to the team in 3-P and 3-1. He's one of the only one's reliably doubling, Mia's doing poor damage and Shinon lacks an Enemy Phase, so he's arguably as useful as Haar.

Elincia and Marcia do from Bowgun users and bow users.

Mordy does untransformed.

Brom has a hammer general to be weary of, too.

Brom has 1 hammer general to worry about, Haar has 10 Thunder Mages, including reinforcements. Mordy shouldn't be fighting untransformed.

Then you have to consider that Haar has a better HP/def/Avo combo than most of those than most of those:

Haar: 46/23/68 HP/Def/Avo

Elincia: 36/21/88 HP/Def/Avo

Marcia: 35/17/70 HP/Def/Avo

Mordy: 52/32/66 HP/Def/Avo

Brom: 38/22/63 HP/Def/Avo

Kieran: 42/19/71 HP/Def/Avo

Geoffrey: 37/18/74 HP/Def/Avo

The only one who’s better than him is Mordy, and he has a transformation gauge to worry about. Elincia’s 20 avo is worse than Haar’s 10 HP and 2 Def, the rest seem fairly obvious.

Then, you have to realise that it’s only 10 enemies. With Elincia and leanne, healing him after an attack isn’t too unlikely.

So overalll, Haar’s one of your most, if not the most, durable units on your team.

However, many of the units you listed don't have the risk of being OHKOd by crit or 2HKOd normally. This cuts into Haar's durability lead.

What unreliable figures. Ike has a 22% chance of not capping Speed, 44% chance of not capping skl, 41% chance of not capping strength, 54% chance of not capping Def, 92% chance of not capping res and <1% chance of capping HP. Funny how you gave him a Res and a HP boost in one of your later comparisons.

I gave him a HP and Res boost because that was a promoted Ike, which you can easily tell from the line above, I typo'd it was supposed to be 20/1 not 20/0. Anyway, Ike has access to bands of every sort since level 2, making these chances much more reliable. All of them are then over 50%, and are thus more likely than not.

I could make them tie 1-2 range for even less cost if you like. Hell, let’s just give him 50 Atk with it. This hand axe costs 1625 gold. Considering the gold sigrun gives you and the CRK’s give you, and later on the DB give you, that’s barely denting the gold supply of the team.

I mean, you can even add some hit and it barely affects it as 2625 gold is still very small in comparison to what the team has.

Even if you were to use 2 every 3 chapters, that’s only 10 used and it might even be less than 2 every 3 chapters as well. If we exclude 4-E, he has used 8 of them. That’s only 21000 gold. Considering the amount of gold you get over the course of the game. That’s not much. A small advantage for Ike, if one at all.

It's still an advantage. Though the game does give you a lot of money 3-11 and beyond, you have to consider all the units you're using not named Ike/Elincia probably want forges as well, the costs add up.

What if ike takes one too many attacks from mages? What happens if they’re durability screwed? Etcetera. There are various scenarios which can lead to Ike needing to escape for a breather, in whcih case, haar performs better.

If Haar gets so badly durability screwed he needs to use Canto to run away constantly I wonder why we're even using him. Mages make up a very small percentage of enemies and Ike performs better against them anyway (higher Avo, no thunder weak).

Haar is likely to be promoted by chapter 10 with 1.33 levels per chapter. Chapter 8 with 1.6 levels. That’s ~3 chapters in which haar is promoted and Ike is not. Haar has already dominated part 3.

Considering how high Haar's level is relative to enemy levels 1.33 per chapter is very generous. Midway through 3-11 is more reasonable, so that's about 1.5 chapters. Although you have to consider Ike has Ragnell by this time, so he has constant 1-2 range and an immediate Def boost as well.

As for those statistics, I think you missed this part:

I don't know why you bring this up again, Hand Axes still aren't better than Ragnell no matter how many times you try. Haar's other leads are barely even statistically significant, wiped out by transfers entirely.

Try completing it in 12 turns with just Naesala and Skrmir, it’s hard, to say the least. Haar helps out with his flying utility even if there are other fliers there. Jill may want to go down Tibarn’s route for the exp or Ike’s route to keep the support with Volug. Ulki/Janaff /Naesala are all negatively affected by the masses of crossbow users on this chapter.

Volug's a laguz, so he's fine in the desert. There are only 4 Crossbow users in the chapter according to the enmy stats thread, hardly "masses". There are far more enemies that hit Res on the chapter, about 15, so Naesala/Ulki/Janaff are probably having less issues than Haar here, not to mention Haar is usualy a top target for the Sleep staff.

All irrelevant advantages – the team has plenty of money, so sparing a few pennies for a forged hand axe is fine. Then, when used by Haar, they’re better than Ike. The tool means nothing if the user weilding the tool is bad with it. In this case, Haar is better with his tool than Ike is with his tool.

I think Ike uses his tool better than Haar's if you know what I mean ;) I'll just compare offense here, though remember Ragnell gives a +5 Def boost as well. Before the slash is no transfers, after is with.

20/3 Haar (Forged Hand Axe, A Mordy)

47 Atk 25 AS

20/1 Ike(Ragnell, A Mia)

48/50 Atk 28/30 AS

Ike hits harder(or much harder) and is much faster. Calling Haar's offense better is just incorrect.

I can be mean on Mia as well as the majority of those (I liked how you said Nailah twice =p) are better than Mia as well. Durably and offensively.

Mia can double auras and such, use Wyrmslayer, Alondite/Vague Katti. Even with Resolve, Mordy's having doubling issues at this point. I don't think many people are going to argue Mordy>Mia for endgame. Plus there are tons of enemies who hit Res, so Mordy's high Def isn't as useful anymore. I also meant Giffca instead of the second Nailah <_<

NO practical purposes? I beg to differ, the enemies on the paths to the sides block out the long range mages on the paths. Flying makes it that much easier to kill them quickly.

One of the mages is on a lone platform, and thus can be targeted by anyone with a ranged weapon. The other one is somewhat valid I suppose, although their hit rates should be so low on everyone they shouldn't be much of a threat.

In E-3 most of the wyrmslayers are likely to have broken by now and every sword user wants them – Mia, Zihark, Gatrie and Titania included.

There are 5 of them, unless we were using them on enemies that they weren't effective on, I doubt they've broken. If there isn't enough for every sword user to have one by this point, they can trade around a little.

In E-4, the hand axes aren’t inferier. A forged hand axe has 14 Atk, this means a 20/10 Atk Haar with a water support has 54 Atk. A level 20/11 Ike with a fire support and ragnell has 54 Atk – they tie. And before you go “He can be higher” who cares? 54 attack is enougth to 2RKO, and since Ike isn’t 20/17 yet (2.67 levels per chapter, counting 4-E-2 as a whole chapter. That’s stupidly big.) he can’t double and ORKO Spirits without Nasir’s help. Now, you might argue that Haar can’t double spirits without Nasir’s help, but he can easily get 24 levels in 17.5 chapters (Counting E-2 as half a chapter) as that’s a mere 1.37 levels per chapter. At level 20/15, Haar has 29 AS.

It's not that stupidly big, considering Ike gets a level from the BK alone.

I might add taht since Ike isn’t 20/17, he can’t double Aura’s either. Meaning he deals 26 damage compared to Haar’s 40.

20/17 Ike by 4-E(5) is far from ridiculous, especially because of how easy he gets boss kills. If we're that worried about Ike's speed(or he's superemely underleveled), a 20/11 Ike with a speed transfer/Speedwing also doubles auras. Haar's speed cap isn't fixable.

Funny how Ike still needs the help of valuable resources to be better than Haar. People want the spaces around Nasir. Since you’re giving him all tehse resources, why not give Haar a speedwing? Oops, now a 20/15 Haar can Double Ashera with Nasir’s help too, but unlike Ike, he can canto away so anotehr unit can take the spot he was in. Haar rocks.

Are you equivocating a spot on the map to a Speedwing? If we're putting resources into play, we could've given Ike an Energy Drop(less wanted than a Speedwing) a long time ago and Ike now ties/beats Haar in Atk, or Boots/Celerity makes Haar's Mov lead vanish. Anyway, using Nasir's White pool is much less of a drain than Speedwing. Even with the Speedwing, Haar doesn't double Auras.

@Bold: This means nothing. An 11/1 Ike with ragnell deals 17 damage to Ashera. Which means that you’re giving Ike credit for everyone else’s handywork as you literally have to attack Ashera with 17 HP. Is Ike himself helping you clear the boss? No. We might as well give him credit for seizing places as well, as it’s the same thing – Ike does nothing except the final command, which is not an advantage.

That's a meaningless comparison, since 11/1 Ike is impossible(BK), and he's obviously doing more to Ashera if we gave him any levels ever. Anyway, Ike is still necessary to clear the chapter, the better he is, the more likely it is that we can end the game a turn(or several turns) sooner.

More powerful? No. I’ve shown time and again how Ike is equal to or worse at 1-2 range. The cost means nothing and neitehr does breaking. Haar doesn’t lose the hand axe taht quickly. And after E-2 this stops being an advantage as the enemies can counter. Will his forged hand axe break by then? No. Thus, Haar is better.

Let's say Haar uses a forged hand axe every 2/3 Chapters from 3-11 on with Max Mt and some Hit, this costs 2625 gold per axe.

That's 4 axes total 2625*4= 10800 gold. This is more gold that the amount that Elincia/Sigrun gives you, Haar constantly needing forged hand axes drains resources at a rapid rate.

So? Stun kills more often. And Haar’s durable enougth against most enemies not to worry about healing himself anyway, and the occasional heal isn’t a negative for him in any way since everyone gets healed occasionally – including Ike.

Not using a player phase of a healer is better than using their player phase.

You failed to counter the part where Stun activates more. Skl% is effectively twice as good as skl/2%.

Ike has a Skl lead on Haar, so it's not activating that much more often.

Haar can use canto to stay in his partners support bonus range, however, Making him much more flexible when supporting someone. So Ike’s better affinity means little as he can’t use it as effectively as haar can. So let’s say they tie support-wise.

This might have some validity if Ike actually had trouble staying in his partner's support ranges. However, many of them (Mia, Shinon, Boyd, Nephenee etc.) match his Mov exactly, so there shouldn't be any issues. On the other side, if Haar is actually using his flying utility, he won't be able to stay in range of his partner because he'll be going places they can't reach. There's also a big difference between Ike putting enemy hit rates against Mia into single digits as opposed to Har giving Mordecai a small Avo boost that doesn't really his durability at all.

So.....

Ike and Haar essentially tie pre 3-2, they're both useful.

Ike wins 3-2 and beyond, since they have similar Atk and durabiltiy, but Ike has a 3-5 AS lead, which means he's doing double Haar's damage on the majority of enemies.

Ike costs almost no resources for his offense the entire game. Haar is costing thousands of gold in hand axes for Part 4 alone.

Ike never takes up a unit slot. This is especially important for 4-E, since Haar may easily be pushing out a better unit.

Ike is much better than Haar come Endgame, due to better offense, especially against dragons, being the only way to clear 4-E(2), being able to double auras/Ashera/Degh, and having constant 1-2 range.

Ike provides much better supports, he can make a unit nearly invincible, Haar doesn't add much at all with his supports.

Ike wins.