Thany (Reikken) vs Zealot (A2ZOMG)

[Reikken]

Thany has several advantages over Zealot. First of all, Thany is great for the exp rank, due to starting at level 1 (even for ch 2, that's below average), while Zealot hurts it pretty badly since he joins at lv 21, and considering how steep the exp rank is, this is pretty important, despite how little there is to say about it. It's pretty straightforward.

Next, Thany has extant and useful supports.

For Deak and Solid Snake (or "Lot" for short), their best supports are with Thany and each other. Well, Ward would be better, but he is too terrible to be used long enough to be supporting anyone, so he really doesn't matter.

What about Rutger/Clarine for Deak? They are MUCH slower supports, and they're mostly defensive. Deak is the tankiest character in the entire game, so that much defense mid or late game is overkill. More offense would benefit him much more at that point, and that's exactly what Thany's full-offense affinity offers him. And due to the support both starting several chapters earlier and being more than twice as fast in building, Thany actually offers him more defense as well when he actually needs it: early on. Thany-Deak hits B in 55 turns, while Deak-Rutger C is 50 turns, and Deak-Clarine is even slower. Deak-Thany is 5 more turns, but it starts 2 and a half chapters earlier, so Deak gets that +1 def and 5 avoid about 2 chapters earlier. and +2 avoid several chapters earlier, as well as +2->5 crit avo.

Lot is pretty obvious. Other than Deak (and the already-discarded Ward), Lot has no other early support options. And again, Lot's weakest area is his offense, especially hit. His defense is pretty respectable (lol 40% def growth). Thany makes this already decently good character even better.

Additionally, Thany supports Roy and Tate. Roy is often left lacking a 5th support level, since Alan-Lance-Roy group works best with Alan and Lance taking A with each other and Roy getting B with each, and Roy has no other good supporters aside from Lalum, who joins much later. So a Thany support would help him out as well.

Zealot's supports, on the other hand, are . . . not as impressive. He supports Treck, Noah, and Tate (and Thany!). All three are a good bit worse than Deak and Snake. Thus Zealot will have a harder time even getting his supporters onto the field long enough for the supports to even be used, and unused supports aren't doing anyone any good. And then, Treck and Noah's best support partners are of course each other, and Noah has a better secondary supporter in Fir. Zealot is fairly unwanted.

Tate is a supporter they have in common. The biggest difference, though, is that Thany's support with her is 3 times faster.

Enough about supports. Next is about Ilia and Sacae. As you probably know, which path you take depends on the exp gained by your pegs and nomads. And one of those nomads is pretty awesome. Without leveling pegs, you can't use him without being forced into Sacae, so if you want to go to Ilia, having Thany is very helpful.

And Thany is the only flying unit for the first ~10 chapters. And she has 16 aid and is mounted to go with that. For the early chapters, you have a shortage of mounted units. You have only 3, and they're also your best combat units, so you can't really afford to have them rescuing and such. And they're slowed down by forests and forts and have to go around mountains and cliffs and rivers where they apply, so they're often not as good at the job anyway. Thanks to Thany, you can attack enemies or heal allies in places that would normally not be safe to move to without incapacitating your important fighters. Move in to do whatever, and then rescue and get out. And then use some otherwise-worthless unit like Bors to take/drop. This can also be used to correct fatal mistakes. If you move somewhere and only after moving realize that doing so could result in X unit getting killed. And you can also visit out-of-the-way villages and shops (ch 4 mainly), help Chad get chests open faster (it usually takes a lot longer to get all those chests in ch 6 open than it does to kill the boss and sieze, so the faster you get this done, the faster you complete the chapter, so this is especially important), etc.

By the time Zealot shows up, you have several non-top-tier mounted units instead of just Thany, so any one of them being able to do rescue operations is much less important. However, you still have only one that can fly. It doesn't matter in ch 8 and 8x, since those are indoor, but it can be nice in 9, 10, 11, until Tate appears. Even then, without Thany, you're limited to just Tate, which sucks massively if you don't want to use Tate, since she's not too great. Miledy joins soon after, but she's usually busy putting her massive stats to use in fighting. Her aid is kinda low as well. In short, Thany's mounted/flying powerz are very important early on and are still helpful later.

Further, in those first 5 chapters, you only have as many units as unit slots, so every fighter is at least somewhat helpful, unlike later, where every unit in means another unit out. So Thany has that going for her as well.

Now, what does Zealot have? He can tank---and, to a lesser extent, kill---very well in ch 7. That's about all he has going for him.

Aside from the above points, Zealot and Thany are just two units with crappy stats. What makes them actually useful has been outlined above, and Thany has much more going for her than Zealot does. That's why Thany > Zealot.

[A2ZOMG]

Before I get started, there is an important thing I need to say. In this game, what you need can be summed up in three items. You need good move to efficiently advance to locations, you need healers to survive hits from enemies, and you need units with good offense so that you can eliminate threats efficiently to minimize the number of times they can hit you.

Zealot fits two of these roles amazingly well for a few chapters. He is one of if not your best combat unit in chapter 7, which is arguably the hardest chapter in the game, and the first chapter where Wyverns are introduced. He’s a Paladin and has 8 move, and thanks to his good base defense, he has significantly more freedom to go where he needs to go than most of your units. This matters a lot for a few chapters after 7, since those are big maps that require you to travel significant distances.

Thany on the other hand? She has good move since she is mounted, and has the advantage of flying to ignore terrain. However, this is nullified by her inability to increase her defenses with terrain and her glaring 3x weakness to archers who will severely limit where she can safely go. She is neither a healer nor is she a good combat unit when she joins. That’s pretty fail from the start.

Since Zealot actually fills important roles, and Thany does not, Zealot >>>>> Thany (three for combat, two for movement).

If that doesn’t convince you, I’ll show you where you went wrong.

Thany has several advantages over Zealot. First of all, Thany is great for the exp rank, due to starting at level 1 (even for ch 2, that's below average), while Zealot hurts it pretty badly since he joins at lv 21, and considering how steep the exp rank is, this is pretty important, despite how little there is to say about it. It's pretty straightforward.

There is a significant problem with this statement. Firstoff, when Thany joins, her base fail stat is significantly higher than Deak’s w1n stat. Actually using her in combat is almost as counterproductive as using Bors against those axe wielders that double him. She does almost no existent damage to enemies besides fighters, loldiers and archers (stuff that actually has low enough defense), both of which rape her terribly in some way. A lot of fighters have extremely high attack stats especially the ones with steel, and those are among a few enemies that are able to onehit her. She can get weakened archers on the player phase, but they will onehit her on the enemy phase (meaning of course, she is only able to take on weakened archers otherwise she will be stuck in a bad spot if the archer is not finished off). Soldiers are almost as bad as fighters for Thany to go up against since they have massive str that also takes a huge number out of her tiny base HP stat, but Thany does enjoy better accuracy vs them and can double them more easily.

She can make her damage in one hit existent with an iron lance, but then that makes her speed bad. -4 AS from Iron is pretty crippling, as it only takes a gap of 4AS to double or get doubled. Thany can’t afford to take doubles, because her base HP is similar to that of one of your magic users, so she can’t soak up hits. And since she doesn’t have Bors’s decent base defense, that of course is why she gets onehitted by a lot of stronger enemies too.

Oh yes, we could give her a Javelin so that she doesn’t need to take counters, but then her hit becomes crappy (and she loses 7! AS from it), so that option of course doesn’t really exist for her, since that hurts your combat rank.

The fact of the matter is you have better units for helping the EXP rank. By using non-promoted units that normally wouldn’t get used, like say Wolt, you help the EXP rank. Only someone like Wolt has accurate ranged weaponry so he’s better at not taking counters, and someone like Ward actually can do damage, so therefore can actually sometimes score kills. Handaxe > Javelin against those common lance and axe wielders anyway.

Next, Thany has extant and useful supports.

For Deak and Solid Snake (or "Lot" for short), their best supports are with Thany and each other. Well, Ward would be better, but he is too terrible to be used long enough to be supporting anyone, so he really doesn't matter.

...you’re right. You just stole my joke and turned one of my favorite characters against me. I should quit life right now and forfeit this debate.

What about Rutger/Clarine for Deak? They are MUCH slower supports, and they're mostly defensive. Deak is the tankiest character in the entire game, so that much defense mid or late game is overkill. More offense would benefit him much more at that point, and that's exactly what Thany's full-offense affinity offers him. And due to the support both starting several chapters earlier and being more than twice as fast in building, Thany actually offers him more defense as well when he actually needs it: early on. Thany-Deak hits B in 55 turns, while Deak-Rutger C is 50 turns, and Deak-Clarine is even slower. Deak-Thany is 5 more turns, but it starts 2 and a half chapters earlier, so Deak gets that +1 def and 5 avoid about 2 chapters earlier. and +2 avoid several chapters earlier, as well as +2->5 crit avo.

I can understand Rutger not supporting Deak. Rutger can get Clarine and Fil, who are both good units who have a reason to support him.

The problem with giving Deak a support with Thany is that this hurts Clarine significantly by limiting her support options. As slow as the support with Clarine is, it is something you should do since you need as much durability as possible for your healers, since those are essential units in this game. Assuming you gave Deak a B with Lot and a B with Thany, that would only leave one slot for Clarine, which is not good. Clarine is hurting for support options if she doesn’t get Deak or Rutger, since the rest of her list isn’t good (except for Lance, who is supporting Roy and Alan).

To give you an example of how having supports with Deak matters to Clarine, let’s take a look at something like a Nomad Trooper from Sacae.

Average Nomad Trooper(Bow/Sword)

HP: 43

Atk: 21/24

Hit: 119/109

Crit: 18/8

Atk Spd: 20/18

Evd: 49

Crit Evade: 9

Def: 12

Res: 7

Clarine level 20/1 with Fire and B Rutger

15.7 atk, 20.2 AS, 139.1 hit, 17.1 crit - - 70.7 avo, 26.6 hp, 6.9 def, 16.6 res, 30.3 critavo

That Bow Nomad Trooper has about 50% hit on her. She’s totally not safe from that, especially since those can kill her in two hits.

Whereas if you gave her a B with Deak like you are normally supposed to, that hit would drop by 10%, which really matters since that puts the RN system more in your favor. Also, that extra 2 defense from supporting Deak would help her a lot by making it harder for that enemy to 2hit her.

Lot is pretty obvious. Other than Deak (and the already-discarded Ward), Lot has no other early support options. And again, Lot's weakest area is his offense, especially hit. His defense is pretty respectable (lol 40% def growth). Thany makes this already decently good character even better.

You’re really sneaky you know that? Did you think I would simply fall for that just because I happen to think Lot is badass?

Lot only gets half hit from the support...which is definitely better than getting no hit from Deak. But when you notice that stuff like that Nomad trooper actually has evade, it’s still not making him all that good at offense.

Which brings me to a sad point...that Lot is rather iffy to field later in the game since his offense is quite unreliable. Thany can definitely benefit from this for a little bit earlygame, but outside of that? Not looking so promising.

Zealot's supports, on the other hand, are . . . not as impressive. He supports Treck, Noah, and Tate (and Thany!). All three <a href="http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14515" target="_blank">are a good bit worse</a> than Deak and Snake. Thus Zealot will have a harder time even getting his supporters onto the field long enough for the supports to even be used, and unused supports aren't doing anyone any good. And then, Treck and Noah's best support partners are of course each other, and Noah has a better secondary supporter in Fir. Zealot is fairly unwanted.

I’m doubtful that you’re going to field both Treck and Noah on the same playthrough, and Noah frankly is better than Lot since he has mounted movement, and better accuracy (thanks to getting swords/lances + partial wt control). Noah probably wants the evade bonus from Zealot more than he wants the attack bonus from Treck at this point in the game, so if he’s fielded, there is more benefit to supporting him with Zealot.

Enough about supports. Next is about Ilia and Sacae. As you probably know, which path you take depends on the exp gained by your pegs and nomads. And one of those nomads is pretty awesome. Without leveling pegs, you can't use him without being forced into Sacae, so if you want to go to Ilia, having Thany is very helpful

True enough. Assuming you can even get any kills with Thany.

And Thany is the only flying unit for the first ~10 chapters. And she has 16 aid and is mounted to go with that

The first 10 chapters you say? Let’s see how useful that actually is.

Chapter 2, there is nothing for Thany to do. The village is too far away from her joining spot, and all the enemies rape her pretty hard, including the mercs which are strong enough to 2hit her and very accurate.

Chapter 3 is pretty much the same story. The village where Lugh at is out of the question for her since there is an archer there that will 1hit her. And there are a lot of enemies you need to get past in order to advance to the village with the Mend staff, so ultimately, one of your Cavaliers who can actually advance into those enemies will be your best option for getting to that village efficiently. Not good for her at all. She can however gain EXP this chapter since there are plenty of loldiers that your units for the most part won’t 2hko.

In Chapter 4, she finally has a real opportunity to put her flying utility to use without getting raped in the process. The one village in the south is fair pickings for her, and she can kill time in the other turns buying stuff for your team. For combat however, this chapter is a nightmare for her. The Cavaliers 2hit her, while she does like 0-1 damage to them with a slim lance. There are also a lot of Nomads and Archers, which make it pretty much impossible for Thany to do anything else besides getting to the village without getting raped gruesomely.

Chapter 5 is really boring for Thany. There pretty much is nothing for her to do this chapter except maybe rescue the occasional unit that you accidently put in a bad position. She’s more hopeless than someone like Bors on this chapter. Bors for example can tank a bit against those mercenaries which make a common appearance this chapter, but Thany has nothing that she can go up against without getting horribly raped on the counter.

Chapter 6 is a breather for everyone. You have a lot of space to move around and there are plenty of loldiers, and even a few mages that she’s okay against. Her move is now useful again for helping advance people, although she still has to watch out for archers.

By the time Zealot shows up, you have several non-top-tier mounted units instead of just Thany, so any one of them being able to do rescue operations is much less important. However, you still have only one that can fly. It doesn't matter in ch 8 and 8x, since those are indoor, but it can be nice in 9, 10, 11, until Tate appears. Even then, without Thany, you're limited to just Tate, which sucks massively if you don't want to use Tate, since she's not too great. Miledy joins soon after, but she's usually busy putting her massive stats to use in fighting. Her aid is kinda low as well. In short, Thany's mounted/flying powerz are very important early on and are still helpful later.

Now, what does Zealot have? He can tank---and, to a lesser extent, kill---very well in ch 7. That's about all he has going for him

I think you’re really underrating how massively important Zealot is when he is recruited. The only unit that beats Zealot in defense is Bors (who gets raped horribly due to his low hp and spd), and the only unit that has a chance at beating him in HP is Lot (who has significantly lower defenses and evade when he joins), and he beats everyone except Rutger and Thany in speed (Thany loses her spd advantage wielding iron). Seriously, best unit this chapter. Nobody even comes close except Marcus (who has lol growths and probably only gained 2 levels when Zealot joined, so Zealot is clearly better).

As for Thany on chapter 7…wow. She’s just failing on this chapter. She basically does nothing to the enemies that have 9+ defense (the few that don’t are stuff like stray archers and priests). Zealot on the other hand is pwning massively this chapter. Nothing doubles him, and he doubles the 9 spd Cavaliers. A lot of the villages are not safe for her to rescue since she will get 1hitted by archers, so you’ll need a sturdy horseman to get those.

A few more chapters:

Chapter 8 sucks significantly less for Thany… but there are still a number of archers that she hates dealing with, and Knights she can’t do damage to. Zealot is winning even more this chapter since his move advantage, and not being weak to bows, not to mention his ability to own the boss with various weapony is very valuable.

Chapter 8x…finally Thany gets to do something that nobody is able to do. Rescue units and take the southern shortcut to the boss. Nice I guess. But still, you’ll need Zealot, Marcus, and other dudes to take on the boss.

Chapter 9 is more hell for Thany. So many fighters. Zealot on the other hand is still wtfraping since he can get wta and never die vs them while doing a ton of damage to them. And of course, you will want to have sturdy horsemen to help rescue those villages.

As you can see, Thany’s usefulness is pretty much neutered most of the time since she is one of the worst characters in the game at dealing with the majority of enemies around her and due to her fail hp and weakness to bows she gets 2hitted or 1hitted a lot earlygame. Zealot on the other hand can be used for a few chapters and is your best unit for those few chapters right after you get him.

Aside from the above points, Zealot and Thany are just two units with crappy stats. What makes them actually useful has been outlined above, and Thany has much more going for her than Zealot does. That's why Thany > Zealot

I beg to differ.

Being THE BEST unit at something that matters a lot >>> Being a horrible unit at a lot of things that matter and semi-decent at something that only somewhat matters.

Edited July 24, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[Reikken]

Before I get started, there is an important thing I need to say. In this game, what you need can be summed up in three items. You need good move to efficiently advance to locations, you need healers to survive hits from enemies, and you need units with good offense so that you can eliminate threats efficiently to minimize the number of times they can hit you.

Nay, nay. If you really want to break it down, all you need is

to complete chapters as quickly as possible (tactics and indirectly, combat) while not dying (survival and power) and gaining as much exp as possible in the process (exp and power). However you choose to do that is up to you, as long as it works.

Thany helps with all of these objectives, and right away, even.

You say that she's not much use in ch 2, but that's quite wrong. For example, the boss has 15 def, so the only way you're killing him is with an armor-slaying weapon. However, he also has 28 avoid, and the best hit you can get with a hammer is about 58, since only Lot and Ward can use it (Ward has 5 less hit, too). That's only 40 hit after WTA and avoid (32.4 real), and you need two hits on him. 6 swings? Even more if you get unlucky? That's a lot of wasted turns. Ward gets 35 hit (24.85%), btw. So what do you do? Use the armorslayer, which is in that village. Of course, you could have Marcus go backwards to start off and get it, but then your best unit is not on the front lines, which slows your advance. Another option is to have Merlinus get it and then go about his business as usual (shopping), and then have Thany fly over the mountains and get it from him and bring it back in time to kill the boss, also bringing over some of those newly bought supplies in the process, so that you have a bit more time to distribute them, instead of having to get all that done at the start of ch 3, likely wasting time. And/or she can help advance Ellen and Roy.

Then, while she's only doing 4x2 to those axe guys, that's enough. In fact, just the 4 is all that's needed usually. Deak does about 12x2---unless he uses his iron blade, which he won't get a chance to replinish until mid ch 7---, which isn't enough to kill. about 4 more damage is needed. Which Thany covers. Lot + Ward combined do about 12x2 (12+13). Same story there. Deak + SomeoneElse or SomeoneElse x 3 = a kill. The only one different atm is Deak. The other three are effectively the same on offense. Aside from accuracy issues, where Thany wins despite the weapon triangle. Lot is looking at ~75% real and Thany ~84%. Ward is...worse. 68. And Thany's getting more exp per kill than anyone else atm. Deak, for instance, gets 13 less. Lot 6 less.

..and there are only two enemies in the chapter than kill her in one hit, and those are the two archers. Her base hp may be low, but her base def is not. It's the same as Deak/Alan/Lance's. She doesn't get OHK'd by anything but bows. Steel axe? Not enough. Unless the RNG goes way up for that one fighter's str.

tl;dr Thany is very important to getting the most out of ch 2. And while Thany is helping in ch 2, getting you exp and saving you turns, Zealot is, of course, doing nothing at all.

O noz, Thany can't take on the archer in ch 3 on the way to Lugh. No one can take that solo except Marcus. She'll have help, obviously. Also, using more than one mounted unit is the best way to get Lugh into the action as soon as possible (chained rescue/drop)

And indeed, aside from Wolt and Bors (and Chad), everyone 2-rounds the soldiers with few exceptions, Thany included.

You were quite right about Thany's flying utility in ch 4, but I must correct you on the rest. "For combat however, this chapter is a nightmare for her." Correction: combat is a nightmare for everyone not named Marcus. Also I don't know why you assumed Thany gained nearly no exp in the previous two chapters. 0-1 with a slim lance? Add 1 to that. Anyway, if a slim lance does less than 3, iron is more damaging even without doubling.

Now fortunately for everyone (not just Thany--not being melee or weak to rapier is hard on everyone), there are only two Nomads, and only one at a time.

Everyone who doesn't get one-rounded is helpful in this chapter for helping with formation so that others don't take too many hits at once and so that healers don't get attacked, and for helping to do damage. And then aside from combat Thany has that which was already mentioned. And as for Zealot? Nothing.

Ch5 no one is very good at except Rutger. Even Lance usually can't double the fighters that don't use steel, and it takes him 3-4 hits to kill. 3 for Alan. Same for Deak. Thany's damage very often is enough to eliminate the need for that 3rd/4th attack, though.

And no, Bors won't be tanking any mercenaries. Aside from the ones mixed in with fighters and mages, which destroy him, there are only 3, and Bors doesn't have the move to get through that wooded section ahead of your other units anyway. Him (and Wolt and whoever else) hitting things for extra damage could be useful, but they can't get there to do it. That's what makes Thany different as far as combat goes. Everyone has like 2-3 move in that foresty area, making it extremely crowded. Only a few units can attack at a time due to this, so only the best are attacking. The rest are just getting in the way, so they don't get to attack. Thany, however, still has 7 move, and she can move on the peaks, too, so she actually can help out.

And as always, but even moreso now, Thany can help move people around. Whether it's moving someone who just attacked out of the way so someone else can finish that enemy, pulling a healer (or attacker) out of danger so that you can actually get in that heal/attack, or whatever. This is all much better than what Zealot's doing (nothing), in any case.

Indeed Thany's movement (and res! : mages) is of great use in ch 6, which was partially explained before, but unlike what you seemed to imply, there actually aren't many archers to watch out for at all. None at all are there to begin with. There are only a few in with the reinforcements. So rack up more turns, and to a lesser extent now, exp for Thany. And nothing for Zealot.

Yeah, Zealot is great in ch 7, but you overstate his use. All it comes down to is turns to completion (and at the cost of exp). He may be the best unit in the chapter, but you can do just as well without him; it just takes longer. All he manages to do is lessen the lead Thany got on him over the first 5 chapters.

And no, Thany is perfectly capable of visiting most of those villages even by herself. The archers don't move unless you end the turn in attack range, and she can move after visiting, for the ones that they even can reach.

After ch 7, the next two chapters are mostly just straight shots with a few enemies here and there. You go to the enemies rather than them converging onto you for the most part, and there aren't an overwhelming number of them in any one place, so defense isn't as important for the next couple of chapters. Zealot's nice defenses aren't as impressive anymore for a while. A while long enough for him to not be impressive at all by the end of it. And Alan and Lance with their awesome supports are even beating him in offense. Deak is as well, thanks to his supports from Thany and Lot. Once Thany hits B/B on her own supports, which is very soon and may even happen during chapter 8, her base atk is close to Zealot's. And she both has a higher str growth and gains tons more exp, so she'll be passing him soon. Thany can't damage armors? lol you have grossly underestimated this pegasus knight. She's capable of wielding steel lances, too, you know. She has so much speed that she can eat the 9 AS loss and still double armors and soldiers.

And then anything Zealot kills is hurting your exp rank, and he'll just suck more and more as time goes on, so he's not worth using anymore after ch 7. Yeah, he may be better than Thany at combat for a few chapters now, but Thany wipes the floor with him later, so that's not impressive at all.

Zealot (and Marcus? lol) for taking on the bosses? More like Rutger/Deak. And Lance/Alan if they have C in swords. They have substantially more atk/hit/crit than Zealot. Rutger doesn't have more atk yet, but he has tons more speed, actually able to double Henning while he has that sword equipped. And Leygance (Reygance!?) is also out of Zealot's range unless his 20% growth kicks in before then.

Also, about those fighters and whatnot... After her supports, Thany has so much spd that even with the AS loss from an iron lance and the weapon triangle working both against her and for Zealot, she beats him in avoid until/if he gets supports of his own.

Also, you could just promote Thany immediately as soon as she caps spd if you want to, which more often than not, is by lv 14. Actually nothing's stopping you from promoting her immediately at the end of ch 8. No promotion item competition ftw. In this way Thany beats Zealot at everything right away in exchange for beating him at exp by less and beating him later on by a bit less. Though... while other stats are compromised a bit, spd is actually higher with an early-promoted Thany, so maybe she's not any worse later? And she has more time to get weapon levels. Hmm.....

Anyway, so we have two options for dominating Zealot.

Oh, before going any further, if I do at all, I'll address your issues on supports.

Clarine does indeed like supports. But why would she be limited to a B Rutger? Unlike her support with Deak, that one actually grows at a nice rate. (It's a +2 rather than a +1.) A Rutger plx.

And B Lot/B Thany still leaves Deak able to grab a C support with her. It might take a bit longer to get than usual, but like she cares when she's not promoted and on a low level. It matters little. And then if you really want to, you can even get Clarine to max on supports. How? Have Alan and Roy take the A, leaving Lance with two Bs, and let Clarine get a C from him. A C C. This is also another way to max Roy's supports, making him a bit better.

For Noah, Treck, and Lot...

Noah and Treck, at least as far as I've seen on tier list discussions and whatnot, are usually compared assuming having supports with each other (why? despite both of them being meh? iunno). That good support that they share is a main reason that they're viable at all. Without that support, they're pretty bad.

Lot, on the other hand, is usually assumed to not have a support with Thany and just have a support with Deak until several chapters after Echidna joins, where he may or may not recieve additional support levels. With a Thany support, though, he's quite a bit better. That's up to an additional +3 atk pretty early on, among other things.

A Deak = +1 atk, 7 crit, 3 def, 15 avo, 15 crit avo,

A Thany B Deak = +4 atk, 7 hit, 12 crit, 3 def, 17 avo, 25 crit avo

7 hit makes a pretty big difference, too. And you'll be thankful for that critavo when facing killer weapons.

Comparing Lot to Noah? Lot also has more time to level than they do, so...

let's take a 15/0 Lot vs a 14/0 Noah or 13/0 Treck. Actually not Treck. He's an inferior version of Noah, pretty much.

Lot, AB supports, Iron Axe:

22.6 atk, 11.2 AS, 93.8 hit, 16.6 crit - - 45.0 avo, 38.6 hp, 11.8 def, 5.8 res, 30.6 critavo

Noah, B Zealot C Fir, Steel Sword:

20.1 atk, 11.1 AS, 101.6 hit, 11.8 crit - - 46.0 avo, 32.2 hp, 10.1 def, 2.7 res, 20.8 critavo

Also killer axes can be bought in ch 11. And in the first few turns of it if you're using Thany. Killer lance/killing edge? Not until ch the end of 13, 3.5 chapters later. So it's worth making a comparison with that in mind:

15 Lot, AB supports, Killer Axe:

25.6 atk, 11.2 AS, 93.8 hit, 46.6 crit - - 45.0 avo, 38.6 hp, 11.8 def, 5.8 res, 30.6 critavo

14 Noah, B Zealot C Fir, Steel Lance: (for steel sword, see above)

22.1 atk, 8.1 AS, 86.6 hit, 11.8 crit - - 40.0 avo, 32.2 hp, 10.1 def, 2.7 res, 20.8 critavo

also no AS loss from hand axe

pretty pro winning in atk by 5-6 / 3-4. Also crit by 35 for those 3.5 chapters. Actually, he wins crit by >30 from the moment Noah joins (as well as atk by massive amounts). Why? You get a killer axe in ch 6, and Lot's the only one who can use it. It may as well be his prf weapon. Marcus and Zealot's weapon levels are too low, and Ward is lol and doesn't have the weapon levels for it either anyway unless he got 50 swings in. And no one else can use axes. Not so for that killing edge, which 5-8 people can use.

There's also a silver axe waiting for him for as soon as he hits A. Even Echidna only starts with a B in axes. And there's not much competition for the brave axe either, while I'm talking about weapons. Echidna doesn't want it; she can double fine without it and loses 7 AS from it, and Gonzales can't use it at all until he hits B. And the only other potential users are Geese, and Bartre if you took that route. And Geese loses 6 AS from it, which is often enough to get him doubled.

And you're short on axers anyway. Meaning it's nice to have someone who's better against different enemy types rather than better against the same ones that over half your party is good against. Make the harder parts easier rather than make the easy parts even easier. For example, the best guy against those wyverns in ch 7 after Zealot isn't Alan or something. It's Lot, with his killer axe. Solid Snake indeed.

Noah does have better hit; I'll give him that. (Skl and luck are his only good stat growths.) But he's same/worse in the rest. Except he also wins avoid after a while. And Lot's hit is greatly aided on promotion, with the ability to use an 80-hit weapon instead of just a 65-hit one.

k, with that out of the way...

back to how badly Thany crushes Zealot, I guess.

Let's look at a 14/1 Thany (A Lot B Deak) and compare to a 4 Zealot with B Noah even though Noah is n00b

Thany, iron lance:

20.9 atk, 18.2 AS, 118.6 hit, 24.4 crit - - 61.2 avo, 28.9 hp, 11.3 def, 12.2 res, 37.8 critavo

iron sword:

18.9 atk, 21.2 AS, 133.6 hit, 24.4 crit - - 67.2 avo

steel lance:

23.9 atk, 13.2 AS, 103.6 hit, 24.4 crit - - 51.2 avo

Zealot, steel sword:

19.8 atk, 13.6 AS, 102.7 hit, 11.1 crit - - 42.7 avo, 37.2 hp, 12.9 def, 8.5 res, 15.5 critavo

steel lance:

21.8 atk, 11.6 AS, 87.7 hit, 11.1 crit - - 38.7 avo, 37.2 hp, 12.9 def, 8.5 res, 15.5 critavo

w1n offense and hax avo > Zealot

later?

Noah clearly wants A with Fir over Zealot, so Zealot's supports haven't advanced any.

14/12 Thany, killer lance:

27.2 atk, 23.6 AS, 138.7 hit, 57.3 crit - - 78.6 avo, 33.8 hp, 12.4 def, 15.0 res, 44.4 critavo

killing edge:

26.2 atk, 25.6 AS, 148.7 hit, 57.3 crit - - 82.6 avo

13 Zealot, killer axe:

25.0 atk, 15.4 AS, 102.0 hit, 42.0 crit - - 47.6 avo, 44.0 hp, 15.6 def, 9.8 res, 16.8 critavo

killing edge:

23.0 atk, 15.4 AS, 122.0 hit, 42.0 crit - - 47.6 avo

ouch. Those 20% growths are rather unforgiving.

20/10 Thany, killer lance:

28.4 atk, 23.0 AS, 143.7 hit, 58.3 crit - - 79.8 avo, 35.6 hp, 12.8 def, 16.0 res, 46.8 critavo

killing edge:

26.4 atk, 25.0 AS, 153.7 hit, 58.3 crit - - 83.8 avo

pwns by even more indeed

I think that covers it. Did I miss anything?

The coolest part about debaeting for random characters is I see things I never realized before.

[A2ZOMG]

Damn Reikken-san! You're too good.

I should give up life right now. Or not. Actually instead of being a wuss and just giving up this debate, I'm just going to be a pussy and force you to use up your last post just because being raped by you feels good.

Nay, nay. If you really want to break it down, all you need is

to complete chapters as quickly as possible (tactics and indirectly, combat) while not dying (survival and power) and gaining as much exp as possible in the process (exp and power). However you choose to do that is up to you, as long as it works.

Thany helps with all of these objectives, and right away, even.

The key thing here is not dying. Because most of the situations where Thany could be used often involve a risk that could easily get her killed (say if she missed), not dying while doing stuff with her is easier said than done.

And then her evade isn't amazing when she first joins, and after one hit from anything she's either dead or "o noz one more hit will kill me!" And she isn't the kind of character that can consistently avoid counters either.

Using her could work if you get lucky, but when you're not lucky, she's more likely to end up dead or be spending a lot of turns doing nothing.

There isn't much time wasted, if any having Marcus go to get the Armorslayer on turn one in chapter 2. There are a bunch of 1-2 range dudes (probably handaxers) that take multiple turns to kill regardless how you deal with them since they don't take counters and they, along with the fort that your units have to bypass will slow you down more than Marcus not being there. Also...the first group of enemies is not incredibly powerful, so using Marcus isn't necessary to take them down, and of course is a net minus from your EXP rank.

And you're right that Deak can opt to not oneround stuff using his Iron Sword, but the problem with this is this hurts your combat rank of course, slows your advance (hurts tactics), and having Thany finish off the enemy puts her in a bad position because then she is stuck to be raped on the enemy phase, and you will have to move your units to rescue her and get her out of the way. This will probably force you to advance Deak/Lot/Ward past the forts where they are safer to weaken stuff on the enemy phase. If you don't see what I mean, here is a text diagram.

M O T

M D X

O W L

M = mountain

O = Open space

T = Thany

X = Enemy

D = Deak (in fort)

W = Ward

L = Lot (in fort)

This is one example of how that works, but the point is Thany has to advance into an unsafe position to finish off something Deak may have weakened. And by the way, she can't just abuse forts the way Deak and Lot can since she ignores terrain. Oh wait, we could have her use that Javelin so she doesn't have to take counters, but then her accuracy goes down the drain and hurts your combat by even moar. Not looking so good now.

On chapter 3, the only unit who has enough issues where he needs to be traded something is Roy, since he doesn't start with an Iron Sword. Or maybe Lance, since he needs an iron lance(lol lance and Lance!). So if anything, Thany really wasn't doing much at all for your team there.

I'm seeing Thany having only gained 1-2 levels by chapter 4. She can't get any exp in chapter 2 since that involves her likely getting killed or killing your efficiency. She can get a little EXP from those loldiers in chapter 3 (which a lot of people want to get EXP from, so she has competition for that), and then she fails a lot against everything else. So even if she somehow gained 2 levels, she only averages a 60% chance of gaining 1 point of str from that, so half the time she's only doing 0-1 damage vs those Cavaliers. Worst combat unit in the chapter ftl. And she still gets 2rounded if she tries to do anything and doesn't dodge. That's frankly worse than Ward. Ward at least has the option of using the Halberd so that he doesn't take a double half the time (which helps your combat too). So anyhow, so she gets to do her thing in that village and stuff, but she doesn't have the option of even HELPING to kill stuff. Yeah, chapter 4 is a nightmare for everyone, but everyone except Thany, Walt, and Chad actually helps damage stuff. And killing that stuff is of course important, which Thany doesn't help do.

Chapter 5...I think I said stuff about how Thany can't afford to be put in a bad position and then how you have to move people out of their safe havens from forts to rescue her after she does her fighting. Not to mention she doesn't benefit from those said forts partly due to low hp, and also due to not getting that essential +20 evade. Not cool. There are too many axe wielders for her to go anywhere without being killed on a stroke of misfortune. Specifically, she can't go anywhere near that village. And being next to her supporters is a bad idea since there are a lot of enemies that have 1-2 range that will 2hit her like those handaxe dudes. Not fun. So hmmm...you think she can get a B with Lot and Deak earlygame. Make that a C.

So then finally you get your EXP fun times in chapter 6, and then chapter 7.

Srsly, chapter 7 is a major problem if you don't recruit Zealot. Zealot makes this chapter much easier since with an Iron Axe, he doubles the Wyverns for pretty good damage. That consistent damage is essential, since it will likely take at least 3-4 rounds to kill those Wyverns especially if you don't have an archer around, and if Lugh can't double them (which is likely). And then he also does massive damage to those Cavaliers and onerounds the mages which are all a huge problem since they do a lot of damage.

Marcus doesn't come close to his performance since he doesn't double nearly as much stuff as Zealot does. Lance and Alan don't double stuff that easily in this chapter either. Thany probably can double stuff with a slim lance, but that's only good on the mages, which are mixed with the Wyverns and Cavaliers and Archers which she all wants to avoid.

So then you said stuff about Lot being able to do stuff against the Wyvern, but his accuracy still isn't very good even if he somehow has a C with Thany. You definitely don't want to miss against those Wyverns because if you miss, then you have a guy stuck in the way that did nothing and now you have a problem since that Wyvern is likely still going to be alive with your strategy messed up, and a live Wyvern is a bad thing.

Really, nobody comes CLOSE to Zealot's pwnage on this chapter. To say that this chapter can be done without Zealot...maybe. But really...it sucks a lot without him.

So then you could supposedly promote Thany...assuming she even gets to level 10 which I doubt is even possible with that massive fail stat of hers.

And then the rest is too much rape for words...your turn to finish it up dude. =P

Edited June 13, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[Reikken]

Indeed missing can put you in a bad position. Missing can be fatal for anyone. Fortunately Thany's hit is on the high side: 84% real when going against the weapon triangle. It only goes up from there. She also has the highest hit growth rate in the game, barring the obvious exceptions of Fa and Karel. (Rutger is 2nd, 5% behind.) Meaning that, with that combined with her highest-exp-gain, her hit will be going up even during the chapter. Anyway, with knowing how bad missing can be, you should be glad to use Thany in ch 2. She doesn't miss even half as much as Lot and Ward do. Even after removing Ward---he misses enough for three people. Or more.

Yes, handaxers take an extra round or two to kill, but what does that have to do with this? Missing your best attacker/counterattacker/tank, Marcus, wasting him on a village getting an item you don't need 'til the end of the chapter, is still slowing you down. Those other things slowing you down doesn't nullify this any. It just means you're now getting slowed down twice.

And btw, even a 1-turn improvement is still very substantial. Considering that it's one action by one unit in one chapter. Or even if it's just like 70% of a turn. It really adds up. To help put that in perspective, if you have just two 70%-of-a-turn things per chapter by just 7 of your like 10-12 units over the game's 30ish chapters, that's about 300 turns.

--

I'll take a moment to say a bit more on that before moving on. Let's take just Thany, over ch 2-6. i.e. before Zealot joins. Just her saving 0.7 turns twice per chapter (This is being very conservative. It easily amounts to much more than this, especially considering that it's using Thany vs using no one at all for the first 4 and then Thany vs the likes of Bors and Wolt for ch 6), that amounts to 7 turns. Does Zealot save you 7 turns all by himself in ch 7? I think not. You can even spend a few turns retreating a bit from the wyverns and whatever else, while getting better positioning and thinning them enough to advance again, and still come out fewer than 7 turns under. And that's a huge overestimation of Zealot as well. He's not THAT good. And this is also without giving any consideration to anything else, like exp rank and supports.

Just to further reinforce the point that being helpful in 5 chapters >>> in 1 chapter

--

Yes, +combat rank is cool. But there are two problems. First, iron blade makes Deak prone to missing. And second, you want to still have that weapon for when you need it later. So you should save it whenever you can. And as an added bonus, you get +exp rank for doing so. Not only do you get +nonkill exp for Deak, but also Deak's exp/kill is the lowest aside from Marcus. And Thany's is highest.

Now the rest of your analysis seems to revolve around those forts. Indeed, if you're camping out on forts, Thany is not seeing much action, but you only spend like 2 turns there at the most. You want to advance, not camp out. That runs completely against efficency and tactics rank. Fewer turns, not more. Someone kills something, and then others move past them. Or next to them, sometimes. Either way, they're not left out in the open.

Indeed, Roy needs an iron sword and Lance needs an iron lance, as you said (though you said "maybe". This is not a maybe.), but also Marcus wants an iron lance as well, which is something you didn't mention. No, it's not a lot, but again, every bit helps.

On ch 4, not only is your analysis based off of a garbage assumption in ch 2, but you also again ignored the fact that iron lances exist with your "0-1" damage bit. Also note that even a base str Thany who somehow cannot wield iron lances is only doing that 0-1 damage (per hit. actual damage is doubled) to the lance-wielding ones. She gets WTA on the sword ones. +1 damage. Also considering that WTA, she only gets 2-shotted if both use lances, assuming neutral stat deviation.

Before you say "That's frankly worse than Ward", consider that Ward has little more than half as much def and gets doubled by half the cavaliers. For Ward to not get 2-rounded, both of them have to be slow cavaliers (as opposed to both of them having to be fast, as is the equivalent case for Thany). And while he may do more damage, his hit is terrible, which is especially dangerous in a chapter like this. 77% real with WTA. And then 43% real the other half of the time.

Again with the forts on ch 5. You're staying there for even less time here since you have a full army behind you (which now includes Rutger!) to push through the enemy forces.

Now you say Lot's ~84% real hit on 7's wyverns is bad? And Zealot's 91% is soooo much better? That's pretty bad for a guy that's supposed to be wtfpwning everyone. Zealot may be able to double, but Lot's not without an answer of his own, in the form of 32 crit and 2-3 atk. It's even arguable who has better offense, given that Zealot needs 3-4 rounds to kill anyway. So many swings is a lot of chances for that 32 crit to kick in.

Also Thany's massive speed is so massive that she's not probably doubling things. She's definitely doubling things. In fact, she's likely doubling even with iron. No need for the lightness of slim. Cavaliers, archers, mages,,, basically everything not a merc she has a good chance to double. Remember that cavaliers usually have 1-2 AS loss. And massive speed is massive.

To finish off with, I'll re-state this, since it's a pretty good summary of earlygame:

I'll take a moment to say a bit more on that before moving on. Let's take just Thany, over ch 2-6. i.e. before Zealot joins. Just her saving 0.7 turns twice per chapter (This is being very conservative. It easily amounts to much more than this, especially considering that it's using Thany vs using no one at all for the first 4 and then Thany vs the likes of Bors and Wolt for ch 6), that amounts to 7 turns. Does Zealot save you 7 turns all by himself in ch 7? I think not. You can even spend a few turns retreating a bit from the wyverns and whatever else, while getting better positioning and thinning them enough to advance again, and still come out fewer than 7 turns under. And that's a huge overestimation of Zealot as well. He's not THAT good. And this is also without giving any consideration to anything else, like exp rank and supports.

Even being biased towards Zealot on 3 counts, he still loses. And that's only earlygame. It says nothing about the chapters after, where Zealot gets pwned outright, where Zealot loses badly in both combat and non-combat leetness (flying, exp rank,etc).

One more thing. It's been said already, but it deserves repeating, as it seems to almost have been forgotten. Still being able to use Shin while going Ilia. The kid is awesome. Not only is he good at combat right away with bases better than Lance's lv 11 stats, but he also joins on a low level, meaning good for exp rank, and he fills a post that's otherwise likely pretty vacant. Who else is going to be using bows? And while bows get a bad rap in many other FE games, that's only because those games are so easy. Like in FE7 you can throw out some random unit with mediocre offense and counterattack-kill most everything that comes at you. Of course you have no need for bows there. Such doesn't apply here. One-rounding is rare, and avoiding counters is important, since those counters hurt a lot. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Anyway, Zealot fails so much that Thany, who isn't that amazing, pwns his face off.

But even as bad as Zealot is, there are whole tiers of units who fail even more. That's pretty awesome. FE6 ftw.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Reikken

[A2ZOMG]

Too much raep for words. O_o

Well guys, I'm leaving the debate as it is right now. Fun stuff Reikken. So...comments anyone? I'm just gonna say myself...really convincing stuff there...and it's made my game better lmao.

[Mekkah]

Reikken's style deviates so much from standard, and yet it is equally as if not more convincing than normal. I might leave more comments later, but I just wanted to get that out.