Gergeshwan (Lugh) vs. luigi bros (Gonzales)

[Gergeshwan]

There were a few conditions agreed upon for this debate.

-Normal Mode

-Lalam Route

-Ilia

I open.

[Gergeshwan]

A lot of people cite Lugh’s poor earlygame as a reason for him to be lower on tier lists. To be fair, it is a valid criticism. On Hard. Lugh’s earlygame in Normal is not so damaging, and by the time Gonzales joins, Lugh has not only canceled any negative utility he may have built up, but he can also be a positive contribution in his own right.

He starts too far away in Chapter 3, so I’ll just say he’s still base level in 4.

1/0 Lugh

Fire

9 atk, 6 AS; 16 HP, 3 def, 17 avo

I know I can’t argue this as good, but it really doesn’t matter too much. Most enemies in Chapter 4 have no 1-2 range, which means Lugh isn’t taking counters on Player phase. Nothing can ORKO him either, so it’s safe to let him be attacked on Enemy Phase as long as he isn’t completely exposed. The only enemies that can counter Lugh are some Hand Axe pirates.

Level 3 Pirate

Hand Axe

12 atk, 5 AS, 54 hit

27.75 True hit. It’s not like they ORKO him, so it’s safe for Lugh to attack. He scores 3RKOs on almost every enemy. While that’s bad on it’s own, he can finish off any damaged enemies to gain exp, or weaken enemies for others to gain exp. Plenty of people could use this, such as a 5/0 Alan who doesn’t double the 5+ AS enemies, Roy, Lot, Ward, Bors… The point is, he’s being useful, and he’s not taking up a unit slot yet, so you may as well use him.

Before this goes too far, it’s time to talk about supports. Lugh gets Chad as a fairly fast option that starts early. On maps with chests, Chad will be off looting, but otherwise, he can give Lugh a nice defensive boost. If Ray is used, Lugh is his best supporter, but I’d say it’s more likely for Ellen to be used, at least as a backup healer. She should double more on Normal anyway, and might make a decent combat unit. Gonzales has absolutely terrible options. His only reasonable support is Echidna, and it’s only a late starting 1 + 1. At best, he can probably get a C towards the end.

Time for Chapter 7, the one I consider to be the game’s hardest. It only takes 15 turns for a Chad C, so I’ll give him that now.

7/0 Lugh C Chad

Fire

11 atk, 9 AS; 19 HP, 4 def, 30 avo

This is where Lugh starts to really make himself useful. 9 AS is a fairly important number here (these Normal enemies really are pathetic) as it allows Lugh to double most enemies, particularly those weighed down. Soldiers and Knights are obvious, and Lugh doubles Archers and Cavs once they equip their Javelins (which is probably happening as soon as someone gets in their attack range.) Speaking of Knights…

Level 7 Knight

Javelin

13 atk, 1 AS, 64 hit; 22 HP, 0 res

That’s the most powerful one, and Lugh ORKOs. Even a 9/0 Alan with Gant Lance can’t do that. It also only has 18.3 true on him, and actually 3RKOs. Lugh is great against the boss, who also has the magic 5 AS. He is also doubling one of those dangerous Dragons, as it drops to 5 AS from its Steel Lance.

By this point, Lugh has established himself as the main man for nuking high defense foes. He has a poor start, but his contributions by Chapter 7 are enough to nullify that. Anything Lugh does after nullifying his negative utility is giving him an advantage in terms of positive contributions before Gonzales joins. Since he joins too late in Chapter 10, he’s still base level by 11.

5/0 Gonzales

Iron Axe

20 atk, 9 AS, 78 hit; 36 HP, 6 def, 23 avo

Hand Axe

19 atk, 63 hit

14/0 Lugh B Chad C Ellen

Thunder

17 atk, 12.5 AS, 117 hit; 22.5 HP, 6 def, 45 avo

Not even close. The paltry 3 atk is easily negated by the def/res gap, and Lugh’s avoid lead compensates for his lower concrete durability. His 1-2 range is far superior because the Hand Axe increases Gonzales’ hit problems. That said, the enemies here are absolutely ideal for Gonzales, being mostly weighed down fighters with poor AS/Avo. However, Gonzales has terrible hit, and even when he doubles, he has a good shot at not ORKOing.

Level 15 Fighter

Steel Axe

30 HP, 5 AS, 4 def, 1 res, 12 avo

This is as favorable as it gets for Gonzales. Several Fighters have Hand axes that improve AS, and Archers/Mages can get free shots at him on Enemy Phase (unless he uses Hand Axe, but lolHit).

Anyway, Gonzales only has 77 true hit with his most accurate weapon. When he attacks, he has ~41% chance to miss one attack and leave it alive. Lugh does not have this problem, and he can attack at 2 range so he doesn’t take counters. Overwhelming win for Lugh.

Time to look at post promotion, maybe around 16x. Gonzales won’t be promoting before the secret shop in 16, while Lugh gets unrestricted movement in 14 and healing once he promotes as experience boosters (and usefulness boosters). It’s 60 turns for C Echidna, which may or may not have happened yet. However, it is only 40 turns for A Chad.

20/4 Lugh A Chad C Ellen

Elfire

27 atk, 18 AS, 130 hit; 31 HP, 9 def, 66 avo

20/1 Gonzales

Killer Axe

33 atk, 18.5 AS, 94 hit; 53.5 HP, 13 def, 47 avo

Gonzales has certainly improved, although his accuracy is still shaky. However, 16x is quite bad for him and his pathetic Res due to a Bolting Sage (27 atk) and 2 Purge Bishops (23 atk). Lugh also has much better avo, although Gonzales can close the gap with WTA on Paladins and Knights. He does have 66 crit, but Lugh also has 29 (34 with Thunder), meaning that after you factor in the chance of Gonzales missing, Lugh is almost as likely to get a crit of his own. Time to look at his hit issues again.

Level 6 Paladin- 20 avo

Level 16 Merc- 36 avo

Level 14 Sniper- 28 avo

Axereaver Cav- 40 avo

Level 13 Mage- 18 avo

There’s only one Axereaver cav, but it’s something he has to avoid to fight effectively. But just looking at the Mercs, Gonzales has ~58% chance to miss once, and ~12% chance to miss twice. That’s not a good chance to take when attacking, especially since Lugh takes care of them safely. And someone has to heal the low res Bolting targets (aka Gonzales) and Lugh can do that too. Basically, Lugh fights and heals quite well and Gonzales misses a lot.

One more comparison, this time near the end.

20/12 Lugh A Chad B Ellen

Elfire

31 atk, 22 AS, 36 Crit, 144 hit; 35 HP, 10.5 def, 80 avo

20/9 Gonzales C Echidna

Killer Axe

38 atk, 22.5 AS, 66 crit, 99 hit; 60 HP, 16 def, 63 avo

I kept the level gap equal because in addition to his CEXP, Lugh can use staves when there are few enemies to fight. Also, Gonzales wasn’t exactly undereleveled anymore, so he gained exp at a normal rate. You can argue the level a bit if you want, but it doesn’t change that anything Gonzales wins here can’t make up for Lugh’s vast win throughout the rest of the game. Gonzales only has 7 atk on Lugh, which is compensated for by the Def/Res gap. Lugh’s better avoid helps against Gonzales’s concrete durability lead. And Lugh still has Staff utility on top of his good combat. He can also pull out Aircalibur to kill the Dragon Lords, which bites even further into Gonzales’s combat leads.

Summary: Lugh makes up his earlygame deficit before Gonzales joins because these Normal enemies are failures. However, Gonzales still has a lot of trouble hitting stuff, because even though enemies are weaker, so is his hit. After promotion, Gonzales has good offense, but he still has problems hitting things, especially if faced with WTD. Meanwhile, Lugh has constant 1-2 range and better avoid to bolster his durability. After promotion, Lugh’s staves give him an added dimension of utility that both increases his worth and gives him more exp.

[luigi bros]

A lot of people cite Lugh’s poor earlygame as a reason for him to be lower on tier lists. To be fair, it is a valid criticism. On Hard. Lugh’s earlygame in Normal is not so damaging, and by the time Gonzales joins, Lugh has not only canceled any negative utility he may have built up, but he can also be a positive contribution in his own right.

He starts too far away in Chapter 3, so I’ll just say he’s still base level in 4.

1/0 Lugh

Fire

9 atk, 6 AS; 16 HP, 3 def, 17 avo

I know I can’t argue this as good, but it really doesn’t matter too much. Most enemies in Chapter 4 have no 1-2 range, which means Lugh isn’t taking counters on Player phase. Nothing can ORKO him either, so it’s safe to let him be attacked on Enemy Phase as long as he isn’t completely exposed. The only enemies that can counter Lugh are some Hand Axe pirates.

Level 3 Pirate

Hand Axe

12 atk, 5 AS, 54 hit

27.75 True hit. It’s not like they ORKO him, so it’s safe for Lugh to attack. He scores 3RKOs on almost every enemy. While that’s bad on it’s own, he can finish off any damaged enemies to gain exp, or weaken enemies for others to gain exp. Plenty of people could use this, such as a 5/0 Alan who doesn’t double the 5+ AS enemies, Roy, Lot, Ward, Bors… The point is, he’s being useful, and he’s not taking up a unit slot yet, so you may as well use him.

Lugh may not be hit too much but when they do hit he'll be in trouble. I'll admit he is good at dodging but he has HORRIBLE durability issues. If he's left in range of more than one enemy he'll be in trouble; that's not a good qualaty.

Before this goes too far, it’s time to talk about supports. Lugh gets Chad as a fairly fast option that starts early. On maps with chests, Chad will be off looting, but otherwise, he can give Lugh a nice defensive boost. If Ray is used, Lugh is his best supporter, but I’d say it’s more likely for Ellen to be used, at least as a backup healer. She should double more on Normal anyway, and might make a decent combat unit. Gonzales has absolutely terrible options. His only reasonable support is Echidna, and it’s only a late starting 1 + 1. At best, he can probably get a C towards the end.

Chad will usually be off collecting tresure so he'll be left with Ray. I won't go into that though. Gonzales has a fairly quick Lilina support. She may not always be used but if she is he'll gain +15 crit. Once Gonzales becomes a Berserker he will critical like crazy especially with a Killer Axe.

Time for Chapter 7, the one I consider to be the game’s hardest. It only takes 15 turns for a Chad C, so I’ll give him that now.

7/0 Lugh C Chad

Fire

11 atk, 9 AS; 19 HP, 4 def, 30 avo

This is where Lugh starts to really make himself useful. 9 AS is a fairly important number here (these Normal enemies really are pathetic) as it allows Lugh to double most enemies, particularly those weighed down. Soldiers and Knights are obvious, and Lugh doubles Archers and Cavs once they equip their Javelins (which is probably happening as soon as someone gets in their attack range.) Speaking of Knights…

Level 7 Knight

Javelin

13 atk, 1 AS, 64 hit; 22 HP, 0 res

That’s the most powerful one, and Lugh ORKOs. Even a 9/0 Alan with Gant Lance can’t do that. It also only has 18.3 true on him, and actually 3RKOs. Lugh is great against the boss, who also has the magic 5 AS. He is also doubling one of those dangerous Dragons, as it drops to 5 AS from its Steel Lance.

The Cavaliers will come rushing down meaning that he has to be extremely careful. If he isn't he can get surrounded and be in danger. It's risky having him fight the Dragon Knight since it has huge movement range and it can move in and if I remember correctly it's pretty accurate so that brings lugh back to durability problems. Fighting the boss with Lugh is risky since he can be 2 hit killed. When the southern reinforcements appear he can't really help out since one of them is carrying a Silver Lance and can OHKO him.

By this point, Lugh has established himself as the main man for nuking high defense foes. He has a poor start, but his contributions by Chapter 7 are enough to nullify that. Anything Lugh does after nullifying his negative utility is giving him an advantage in terms of positive contributions before Gonzales joins. Since he joins too late in Chapter 10, he’s still base level by 11.

5/0 Gonzales

Iron Axe

20 atk, 9 AS, 78 hit; 36 HP, 6 def, 23 avo

Hand Axe

19 atk, 63 hit

14/0 Lugh B Chad C Ellen

Thunder

17 atk, 12.5 AS, 117 hit; 22.5 HP, 6 def, 45 avo

Not even close. The paltry 3 atk is easily negated by the def/res gap, and Lugh’s avoid lead compensates for his lower concrete durability. His 1-2 range is far superior because the Hand Axe increases Gonzales’ hit problems. That said, the enemies here are absolutely ideal for Gonzales, being mostly weighed down fighters with poor AS/Avo. However, Gonzales has terrible hit, and even when he doubles, he has a good shot at not ORKOing.

Level 15 Fighter

Steel Axe

30 HP, 5 AS, 4 def, 1 res, 12 avo

This is as favorable as it gets for Gonzales. Several Fighters have Hand axes that improve AS, and Archers/Mages can get free shots at him on Enemy Phase (unless he uses Hand Axe, but lolHit).

Anyway, Gonzales only has 77 true hit with his most accurate weapon. When he attacks, he has ~41% chance to miss one attack and leave it alive. Lugh does not have this problem, and he can attack at 2 range so he doesn’t take counters. Overwhelming win for Lugh.

Lugh can't do too much there anyways since the pirates can come from over seas and attack him they may have low hit chances but they can do some damage. And that Berserker is bad news for Lugh. I'll admit he may have hitting issues but at least he can risk missing, because of Gonzales's HP lead of 14, and that's only going to increase, as wel as his Defense. He can still dodge if put on a Fort. And against axe and lance users, especially lance users he can ORKO because of his 50% Speed growth and WTA. Axe users aren't too bad; he just needs to stay away from Mercanaries and Myrmidons. If I remember correctly most axe users use steel weapons so the Steel Axe will really slow them down meaning lower avoid and higher hit for Gonzales.

Time to look at post promotion, maybe around 16x. Gonzales won’t be promoting before the secret shop in 16, while Lugh gets unrestricted movement in 14 and healing once he promotes as experience boosters (and usefulness boosters). It’s 60 turns for C Echidna, which may or may not have happened yet. However, it is only 40 turns for A Chad.

20/4 Lugh A Chad C Ellen

Elfire

27 atk, 18 AS, 130 hit; 31 HP, 9 def, 66 avo

20/1 Gonzales

Killer Axe

33 atk, 18.5 AS, 94 hit; 53.5 HP, 13 def, 47 avo

Gonzales has certainly improved, although his accuracy is still shaky. However, 16x is quite bad for him and his pathetic Res due to a Bolting Sage (27 atk) and 2 Purge Bishops (23 atk). Lugh also has much better avo, although Gonzales can close the gap with WTA on Paladins and Knights. He does have 66 crit, but Lugh also has 29 (34 with Thunder), meaning that after you factor in the chance of Gonzales missing, Lugh is almost as likely to get a crit of his own. Time to look at his hit issues again.

In Chapter 14 there are a few Dragon Lords with Silver Lances that are pretty accurate so even with the huge movement in the Desert he can't go too far without being in danger of those Dragon Lords. Gonzales will do pretty well against them at this point. In 16x Gonzales has 53 HP and 47 avoid so as long as he's healed he can take two Bolting hits. Those Snipers are very dangerous to Lugh since they are accurate and powerful. Gonzales has the durability to take a hit or two from them.

Level 6 Paladin- 20 avo

Level 16 Merc- 36 avo

Level 14 Sniper- 28 avo

Axereaver Cav- 40 avo

Level 13 Mage- 18 avo

There’s only one Axereaver cav, but it’s something he has to avoid to fight effectively. But just looking at the Mercs, Gonzales has ~58% chance to miss once, and ~12% chance to miss twice. That’s not a good chance to take when attacking, especially since Lugh takes care of them safely. And someone has to heal the low res Bolting targets (aka Gonzales) and Lugh can do that too. Basically, Lugh fights and heals quite well and Gonzales misses a lot.

If he criticals which isn't unlikely he can easily OHKO any enemy. if he has a 12% chance to miss twice he's safe.

One more comparison, this time near the end.

20/12 Lugh A Chad B Ellen

Elfire

31 atk, 22 AS, 36 Crit, 144 hit; 35 HP, 10.5 def, 80 avo

20/9 Gonzales C Echidna

Killer Axe

38 atk, 22.5 AS, 66 crit, 99 hit; 60 HP, 16 def, 63 avo

I kept the level gap equal because in addition to his CEXP, Lugh can use staves when there are few enemies to fight. Also, Gonzales wasn’t exactly undereleveled anymore, so he gained exp at a normal rate. You can argue the level a bit if you want, but it doesn’t change that anything Gonzales wins here can’t make up for Lugh’s vast win throughout the rest of the game. Gonzales only has 7 atk on Lugh, which is compensated for by the Def/Res gap. Lugh’s better avoid helps against Gonzales’s concrete durability lead. And Lugh still has Staff utility on top of his good combat. He can also pull out Aircalibur to kill the Dragon Lords, which bites even further into Gonzales’s combat leads.

With Lilina support he and a Killer Axe he is very powerful. You also forgot to even mention Illia. Lugh has to deal with enemies with higher Resistance than he's used in the Pegasus Knights; Gonzales has WTA over all of them. Gonzales has a HUGE durability lead; almost twice as much HP and 6 more Defense. With Armads he'll get even more Defense.

Summary: Lugh makes up his earlygame deficit before Gonzales joins because these Normal enemies are failures. However, Gonzales still has a lot of trouble hitting stuff, because even though enemies are weaker, so is his hit. After promotion, Gonzales has good offense, but he still has problems hitting things, especially if faced with WTD. Meanwhile, Lugh has constant 1-2 range and better avoid to bolster his durability. After promotion, Lugh’s staves give him an added dimension of utility that both increases his worth and gives him more exp.

Gonzales can stand to miss. Lugh may miss more often but if he does miss he could end up in trouble.

[Gergeshwan]

Lugh may not be hit too much but when they do hit he'll be in trouble. I'll admit he is good at dodging but he has HORRIBLE durability issues. If he's left in range of more than one enemy he'll be in trouble; that's not a good qualaty.

Well, his durability is composed of both his concrete durability and his avoid. Even if he is attacked by two of those pirates, his chance of death is only 7.7%. Granted, that isn’t a chance I’d take unless absolutely necessary, but considering how slowly those pirates spawn, I doubt there are ever two that can reach him simultaneously. That chance also drops to .3% on a forest, and several squares can be found near the beach where the pirates land.

The bow wielding enemies have better hit, but are even more spaced out. There is one nomad near the start, and one that may reach your troops about when Rutger appears. The archers are only near the castle, and Lugh would rather attack pirates anyway. Also, the rush of charging cavs would have stopped by then, so melee attackers could focus on stopping those archers (who don’t even 2RKO him if he finds a forest).

Chad will usually be off collecting tresure so he'll be left with Ray. I won't go into that though. Gonzales has a fairly quick Lilina support. She may not always be used but if she is he'll gain +15 crit. Once Gonzales becomes a Berserker he will critical like crazy especially with a Killer Axe.

I agree Chad won’t always be there, but for 7, 11, and 16x, he really doesn’t have to be away from the group. As for Lilina, it’s extremely unlikely she even gets used (aside from recruiting), which is pretty much the same reason I didn’t try to give Lugh a Ray support. If you want to do Low tier supporters, Lugh probably benefits more from Ray’s durability boosts than Gonzales does from Lilina.

The Cavaliers will come rushing down meaning that he has to be extremely careful. If he isn't he can get surrounded and be in danger. It's risky having him fight the Dragon Knight since it has huge movement range and it can move in and if I remember correctly it's pretty accurate so that brings lugh back to durability problems. Fighting the boss with Lugh is risky since he can be 2 hit killed. When the southern reinforcements appear he can't really help out since one of them is carrying a Silver Lance and can OHKO him.

The cavs have 13 atk with Javelin, which means Lugh gets 3HKOd. The cavs would rather attack someone who can’t counter at range than attack Lugh at melee, and there shouldn’t be 2 open melee spaces anyway with a basic defensive formation. For the Dragon knights, they only have 73 hit, which is ~37 true on Lugh. Even if it hits, Lugh can survive fine and kill it on the next turn. You do have 3 healers at this point, and even if only 2 are fielded, there should still be enough time to heal Lugh. The boss was just a suggestion, and Normal mode reinforcements don’t attack the turn they show up (I think), which means good ranged attackers like Lugh can take the Silver Lance cav out without eating a nasty counter.

Lugh can't do too much there anyways since the pirates can come from over seas and attack him they may have low hit chances but they can do some damage. And that Berserker is bad news for Lugh. I'll admit he may have hitting issues but at least he can risk missing, because of Gonzales's HP lead of 14, and that's only going to increase, as wel as his Defense. He can still dodge if put on a Fort. And against axe and lance users, especially lance users he can ORKO because of his 50% Speed growth and WTA. Axe users aren't too bad; he just needs to stay away from Mercanaries and Myrmidons. If I remember correctly most axe users use steel weapons so the Steel Axe will really slow them down meaning lower avoid and higher hit for Gonzales.

That comparison was actually for the next chapter, where the fighters have a good mix of Steel Axe and Hand Axe. Of the 12 Fighters that start on the map, 5 have Hand Axes, which means Gonzales won’t double them. By the time Gonzales is recruited, the chapter is almost over, so he really does nothing. I used the same theory with Lugh, so it works both ways.

He can risk missing, but Lugh doesn’t have to. Lugh hits with outstanding accuracy without taking counters, which, to reiterate, means that he is less likely to be attacked. I’m not saying durability doesn’t matter, but it’s less important for Lugh because he won’t be attacked as much. When he is attacked, he is generally 2-3RKOd, but he has a significant avoid lead, even if Gonzales gets WTA (and a huge one with WTD). And saying Gonzales has to avoid Mercs and Myrmidons is like saying Lugh has to avoid stuff that 2RKOs him. Except Lugh can attack at range to avoid any nasty counters, while Gonzales has terrible hit at 1-2 range.

In Chapter 14 there are a few Dragon Lords with Silver Lances that are pretty accurate so even with the huge movement in the Desert he can't go too far without being in danger of those Dragon Lords. Gonzales will do pretty well against them at this point. In 16x Gonzales has 53 HP and 47 avoid so as long as he's healed he can take two Bolting hits. Those Snipers are very dangerous to Lugh since they are accurate and powerful. Gonzales has the durability to take a hit or two from them.

I looked at Chapter 14, and I only saw Steel Lances on the Lords. FoW makes it a pain, so I might have missed it, but it was 27 atk at 79 hit with a Steel Lance.

18/0 Lugh C Ellen (I agree Chad has better things to do here)

Elfire

20 atk, 14.5 AS; 24.5 HP, 6 def, 42 avo

It only has 27.75 true on him, and doesn’t OHKO. If Chad happens to be in range, that drops to 9.9 true. Lugh ORKOs it in return with Aircalibur (he doubles), and this is one of the strongest enemies on the map. Even if the Lord and one of his lackeys attack, Lugh’s chance of death is only ~4% (no Chad). Keep in mind that is the worst case scenario, and that Lugh can annihilate the Lord on Player Phase when he charges, depending on his placement.

Meanwhile, in addition to bad movement, Gonzales has another problem on this map.

12/0 Gonzales

Iron Axe

24 atk, 12.5 AS, 80 hit; 42 HP, 8 def, 32 avo

There are several mages scattered throughout the desert that hit his terrible res and won’t get countered (or won’t get hit if they do). In addition, there are tons of Mercs (I got 8) and 2 Heroes on the east side of the map. If Gonzales doesn’t go there, he doesn’t contribute. If he does, he is faced with stuff like these, adjusted for WTD.

Level 17 Merc

Steel Sword

19 atk, 13 AS, 112 hit; 32 HP, 8 def, 46 avo

He does 2RKO, but at 26.28 true hit. I should have done this chapter sooner ;) . In return, he is 4RKOd, but at 92.2 true. The mercs are in 2 main groups, each clustered around a Hero.

Level 3 Hero

Killing Edge

23 atk, 15 AS, 122 hit, 37 crit; 38 HP, 14 def, 50 avo

Level 5 Hero

Steel Sword

22 atk, 15 AS, 115 hit; 40 HP, 12 def, 51 avo

I don’t even need to explain how terrible these are for Gonzales. The killing edge one has a 30% chance to OHKO him, and he has ~18 true hit on them.

As for 16x, who gets to heal Gonzales so he can take 2 Bolting hits? Lugh can! And with growths as low as Gonzales’s res, it’s not really safe to assume he has that crucial point yet. His chance to have 1 res at 20/1 is 53.7%, which is more than half but not guaranteed. So instead of surviving 2 27 atk boltings with 1 HP, he could die. Lugh’s healing is also great for everyone else, and the Snipers have Longbows, which means low hit on his avoid. They also only have 20 atk, which is short of a 2RKO.

If he criticals which isn't unlikely he can easily OHKO any enemy. if he has a 12% chance to miss twice he's safe.

It’s quite likely he criticals, but it’s also reasonable that he leaves a good number of enemies alive that someone else could ORKO. In the 58% of instances where he misses once, he has ~60 crit. That still leaves ~35% of enemies alive that someone else could guaranteed ORKO.

With Lilina support he and a Killer Axe he is very powerful. You also forgot to even mention Illia. Lugh has to deal with enemies with higher Resistance than he's used in the Pegasus Knights; Gonzales has WTA over all of them. Gonzales has a HUGE durability lead; almost twice as much HP and 6 more Defense. With Armads he'll get even more Defense.

He is good in Ilia, but it’s not a free ride. 17 has a Purge Bishop and several mages. 18 has groups of Mercs that he still has issues hitting. 19 has 1 Sleep Druid that would most likely target Gonzales and his low res and some sword wielding Cavs. They aren’t as bad the Mercs, but he still might miss.

20 is actually a problem for him. There are several Knights with Axereavers, and although they have low base avoid, they do have 30 after WTA. There are two Sleep Druids and one with Berserk. Berserked Gonzales is really dangerous, and requires a staff user to fix his status (like Lugh, although he probably doesn’t have C staves). There is also a Purge Bishop that can seriously dent his health. Then there are the usual Merc swarms and Heroes, some with Killing Edges. Overall, it’s a good chapter for Staves and 1-2 range, and a bad chapter for low res units and Axes.

Gonzales does have a great durability lead, but since Lugh isn’t attacked as much, it’s not as important.

Gonzales can stand to miss. Lugh may miss more often but if he does miss he could end up in trouble.

Assuming you meant less often, or as is almost always the case with Lugh, never, Lugh is usually attacking at 2 range where he isn’t countered, so he can start Enemy Phase with full health.

[luigi bros]

Well, his durability is composed of both his concrete durability and his avoid. Even if he is attacked by two of those pirates, his chance of death is only 7.7%. Granted, that isn’t a chance I’d take unless absolutely necessary, but considering how slowly those pirates spawn, I doubt there are ever two that can reach him simultaneously. That chance also drops to .3% on a forest, and several squares can be found near the beach where the pirates land.

The bow wielding enemies have better hit, but are even more spaced out. There is one nomad near the start, and one that may reach your troops about when Rutger appears. The archers are only near the castle, and Lugh would rather attack pirates anyway. Also, the rush of charging cavs would have stopped by then, so melee attackers could focus on stopping those archers (who don’t even 2RKO him if he finds a forest).

He may be likely to survive but having to be careful about where to move him is never a good qualaty. Gonzales can be moved to a bad spot but with his decent avoid and high HP he can withstand a bad move.

I agree Chad won’t always be there, but for 7, 11, and 16x, he really doesn’t have to be away from the group. As for Lilina, it’s extremely unlikely she even gets used (aside from recruiting), which is pretty much the same reason I didn’t try to give Lugh a Ray support. If you want to do Low tier supporters, Lugh probably benefits more from Ray’s durability boosts than Gonzales does from Lilina

So then neither get supports.

The cavs have 13 atk with Javelin, which means Lugh gets 3HKOd. The cavs would rather attack someone who can’t counter at range than attack Lugh at melee, and there shouldn’t be 2 open melee spaces anyway with a basic defensive formation. For the Dragon knights, they only have 73 hit, which is ~37 true on Lugh. Even if it hits, Lugh can survive fine and kill it on the next turn. You do have 3 healers at this point, and even if only 2 are fielded, there should still be enough time to heal Lugh. The boss was just a suggestion, and Normal mode reinforcements don’t attack the turn they show up (I think), which means good ranged attackers like Lugh can take the Silver Lance cav out without eating a nasty counter.

I don't thinnk that's how the RNG works. I think they target the unit with the least Defense and that's likely to be Lugh.

He could dodge the Silver Lance Cavalier but if it hits you probably need to restart since it can OHKO him.

The Dragon Riders can fly over buildings so if Lugh is left wounded and one targets him he's in big trouble. He can attack from a range but what if he misses or is just outside of his range? Nothing good.

That comparison was actually for the next chapter, where the fighters have a good mix of Steel Axe and Hand Axe. Of the 12 Fighters that start on the map, 5 have Hand Axes, which means Gonzales won’t double them. By the time Gonzales is recruited, the chapter is almost over, so he really does nothing. I used the same theory with Lugh, so it works both ways.

He can risk missing, but Lugh doesn’t have to. Lugh hits with outstanding accuracy without taking counters, which, to reiterate, means that he is less likely to be attacked. I’m not saying durability doesn’t matter, but it’s less important for Lugh because he won’t be attacked as much. When he is attacked, he is generally 2-3RKOd, but he has a significant avoid lead, even if Gonzales gets WTA (and a huge one with WTD). And saying Gonzales has to avoid Mercs and Myrmidons is like saying Lugh has to avoid stuff that 2RKOs him. Except Lugh can attack at range to avoid any nasty counters, while Gonzales has terrible hit at 1-2 range.

This means he has little Enemy Phase offense. He'll be unable to fight well on the Enemy Phase since he'll be protected. This means that he's only avalible for half of the game. It's not exactly right but you get the point. Gonzales can easily survive being surrounded as long as it isn't a magic user. He may have bad hit with a Hand Axe but againt lance users he'll have hit in the 60s.

I looked at Chapter 14, and I only saw Steel Lances on the Lords. FoW makes it a pain, so I might have missed it, but it was 27 atk at 79 hit with a Steel Lance.

18/0 Lugh C Ellen (I agree Chad has better things to do here)

Elfire

20 atk, 14.5 AS; 24.5 HP, 6 def, 42 avo

It only has 27.75 true on him, and doesn’t OHKO. If Chad happens to be in range, that drops to 9.9 true. Lugh ORKOs it in return with Aircalibur (he doubles), and this is one of the strongest enemies on the map. Even if the Lord and one of his lackeys attack, Lugh’s chance of death is only ~4% (no Chad). Keep in mind that is the worst case scenario, and that Lugh can annihilate the Lord on Player Phase when he charges, depending on his placement.

Meanwhile, in addition to bad movement, Gonzales has another problem on this map.

12/0 Gonzales

Iron Axe

24 atk, 12.5 AS, 80 hit; 42 HP, 8 def, 32 avo

There are several mages scattered throughout the desert that hit his terrible res and won’t get countered (or won’t get hit if they do). In addition, there are tons of Mercs (I got 8) and 2 Heroes on the east side of the map. If Gonzales doesn’t go there, he doesn’t contribute. If he does, he is faced with stuff like these, adjusted for WTD.

Level 17 Merc

Steel Sword

19 atk, 13 AS, 112 hit; 32 HP, 8 def, 46 avo

He does 2RKO, but at 26.28 true hit. I should have done this chapter sooner . In return, he is 4RKOd, but at 92.2 true. The mercs are in 2 main groups, each clustered around a Hero.

Level 3 Hero

Killing Edge

23 atk, 15 AS, 122 hit, 37 crit; 38 HP, 14 def, 50 avo

Level 5 Hero

Steel Sword

22 atk, 15 AS, 115 hit; 40 HP, 12 def, 51 avo

I don’t even need to explain how terrible these are for Gonzales. The killing edge one has a 30% chance to OHKO him, and he has ~18 true hit on them.

As for 16x, who gets to heal Gonzales so he can take 2 Bolting hits? Lugh can! And with growths as low as Gonzales’s res, it’s not really safe to assume he has that crucial point yet. His chance to have 1 res at 20/1 is 53.7%, which is more than half but not guaranteed. So instead of surviving 2 27 atk boltings with 1 HP, he could die. Lugh’s healing is also great for everyone else, and the Snipers have Longbows, which means low hit on his avoid. They also only have 20 atk, which is short of a 2RKO.

That group of Heroes and Mercanaries are also pretty dangerous since they are accurate and Lugh durability is almost completely avoid.

Gonzales can be pretty useful against the Dragon Riders and Lords though.

Clarine and Ellen are likely in use. Clarine because I think she's usually considered good and Ellen since you said she's supporting Gonzales. So three healers means that at least one should be able to heal Gonzales.

It’s quite likely he criticals, but it’s also reasonable that he leaves a good number of enemies alive that someone else could ORKO. In the 58% of instances where he misses once, he has ~60 crit. That still leaves ~35% of enemies alive that someone else could guaranteed ORKO.

So he'll be contributing. No one said he has to solo the game. He may miss occasionally but when he criticals an enemy is basically guaranteed to be killed.

He is good in Ilia, but it’s not a free ride. 17 has a Purge Bishop and several mages. 18 has groups of Mercs that he still has issues hitting. 19 has 1 Sleep Druid that would most likely target Gonzales and his low res and some sword wielding Cavs. They aren’t as bad the Mercs, but he still might miss.

20 is actually a problem for him. There are several Knights with Axereavers, and although they have low base avoid, they do have 30 after WTA. There are two Sleep Druids and one with Berserk. Berserked Gonzales is really dangerous, and requires a staff user to fix his status (like Lugh, although he probably doesn’t have C staves). There is also a Purge Bishop that can seriously dent his health. Then there are the usual Merc swarms and Heroes, some with Killing Edges. Overall, it’s a good chapter for Staves and 1-2 range, and a bad chapter for low res units and Axes.

Gonzales does have a great durability lead, but since Lugh isn’t attacked as much, it’s not as important.

If he does get Sleeped he can afford to be targeted. I'm sure Ellen and/or Clarine has at least a C in Staffs by now so they can restore him from Sleep and Berserk. He can be useful against the lance users and axe users.

But again, not being able to take a hit is not good.

Assuming you meant less often, or as is almost always the case with Lugh, never, Lugh is usually attacking at 2 range where he isn’t countered, so he can start Enemy Phase with full health.

I mean less often. What about Javalins. In Chapter 21 all those Dragon Riders are bad news for him. Gale is especially dangerous.

[Gergeshwan]

He may be likely to survive but having to be careful about where to move him is never a good qualaty. Gonzales can be moved to a bad spot but with his decent avoid and high HP he can withstand a bad move.

Groups of Mercs are as dangerous for Gonzales as those Dragons are for Lugh.

So then neither get supports.

Lugh can get Ellen easily enough, and on any maps where there either aren’t chests, or they don’t require Chad separating from the group, he gets Chad too. Echidna has a good chance at being played, it’s just a very slow support.

I don't thinnk that's how the RNG works. I think they target the unit with the least Defense and that's likely to be Lugh.

I just tested this. I put Alan with an Iron Lance and Lance with a Javelin in range of two cavs with both a Javelin and Steel Sword. Alan was more durable, but they both attacked him with Javelins because Lance would counter.

Basically, enemies always avoid counters when possible, unless they could OHKO another unit. They don’t OHKO Lugh, so instead they Javelin someone more durable.

He could dodge the Silver Lance Cavalier but if it hits you probably need to restart since it can OHKO him.

Checked this too. In Normal, enemies don’t move or attack on the turn they arrive. Lugh doesn’t have to dodge that Silver Lance Cav because it never gets the chance to attack him. Anyone with ranged attacks doesn’t have to worry about being countered, and Lugh has 2 range.

The Dragon Riders can fly over buildings so if Lugh is left wounded and one targets him he's in big trouble. He can attack from a range but what if he misses or is just outside of his range? Nothing good.

First off, Lugh doesn’t miss. Anyway, how is Lugh wounded before fighting those? He’s not getting targeted by ranged attacks, and he can keep back enough to be out of melee range (or you could wall him, since you have to protect your healers anyway). In the event he does get hit by something, we have 3 healers, or even Vulneraries. Lugh isn’t OHKOd, so it’s fine if a Dragon flies around and attacks him.

This means he has little Enemy Phase offense. He'll be unable to fight well on the Enemy Phase since he'll be protected. This means that he's only avalible for half of the game. It's not exactly right but you get the point. Gonzales can easily survive being surrounded as long as it isn't a magic user. He may have bad hit with a Hand Axe but againt lance users he'll have hit in the 60s.

Being protected isn’t necessarily walling him completely. It just means that he shouldn’t be left open to a swarm of enemies. Those axers have low hit on him, so as long as he isn’t attacked by large groups, he still has an Enemy phase.

As long as it isn’t a magic user… well those are fairly common. There are several scattered in the desert with a fairly large attack range. As for Chapter 11, there are 16-18 atk Shamans scattered around that really hurt Gonzales. Also, Bolting/Purge is more threatening to Gonzales than Lords are to Lugh.

That group of Heroes and Mercanaries are also pretty dangerous since they are accurate and Lugh durability is almost completely avoid.

They’re dangerous for anyone on Enemy Phase, but Lugh can attack at range on Player Phase to avoid counters. Gonzales has bad enough hit without trying Hand Axes.

Gonzales can be pretty useful against the Dragon Riders and Lords though.

True, once he’s raised up, but Lugh can ORKO them at range while Gonzales will be taking counters. He won’t reach them in the desert anyway.

Clarine and Ellen are likely in use. Clarine because I think she's usually considered good and Ellen since you said she's supporting Gonzales. So three healers means that at least one should be able to heal Gonzales.

Same applies for Lugh and those Dragons. Since he’s at full health, he’s safe against them. That Hero OHKOs Gonzales 30% of the time, and healing can’t stop that.

So he'll be contributing. No one said he has to solo the game. He may miss occasionally but when he criticals an enemy is basically guaranteed to be killed.

Lugh has safer ORKO ranges, so he’s a safer bet. If Gonzales is Critkilling stuff, Lugh also has healing to contribute even more. Lugh has healing longer than Gonzales has his high crit.

If he does get Sleeped he can afford to be targeted. I'm sure Ellen and/or Clarine has at least a C in Staffs by now so they can restore him from Sleep and Berserk. He can be useful against the lance users and axe users.

But again, not being able to take a hit is not good.

If Gonzales gets hit with sleep, then the enemies will attack him. After the Purge Bishop, his durability is a lot shakier. And he can’t very well avoid the Merc/Hero groups unless he’s hiding in the back lines, in which case the healer can’t advance when restoring his status. The Sword guys will attack Gonzales if he gets in range.

I mean less often. What about Javalins. In Chapter 21 all those Dragon Riders are bad news for him. Gale is especially dangerous.

If they have Javelins, they’re attacking someone who won’t counter them.

20/12 Lugh A Chad B Ellen

Elfire

31 atk, 22 AS, 36 Crit, 144 hit; 35 HP, 10.5 def, 80 avo

Level 10 Dragon Lord

Silver Lance

33 atk, 12 AS, 96 hit; 48 HP, 3 res

It has 5.28 True on him, and most of the Riders can’t hit Lugh at all. His durability is just fine. I’ve never actually seen Gale attack, but he would need at least 45 atk to OHKO Lugh (possibly 46). Murdock only has 40, so I doubt Gale has it. Yes, Chad is fielded here, because Murdock has that Knight Crest to steal.

All done here, good luck with your next post.

[luigi bros]

Groups of Mercs are as dangerous for Gonzales as those Dragons are for Lugh.

I can't argue with that. Except that Gonzales could survive a turn with a group of Mercanaries (provided there's no Killer weapons but that's not Gonzales's fault. If Lugh get's near a group of Dragon Riders/Lords he may not last an Enemy Phase.

Lugh can get Ellen easily enough, and on any maps where there either aren’t chests, or they don’t require Chad separating from the group, he gets Chad too. Echidna has a good chance at being played, it’s just a very slow support.

It's unlikely for Ellen to be in use since usually only one healer is used and I think most people choose Clarine or even Saul over Ellen. So

Ellen isn't likely to be in use. Chad likely won't be able to take too many hits so if there's no tresure chests not many people may bring him.

Basically, enemies always avoid counters when possible, unless they could OHKO another unit. They don’t OHKO Lugh, so instead they Javelin someone more durable.

That's not always the case. I know for a fact that both are true. I can't argue this though since it's the game's mechanics.

Checked this too. In Normal, enemies don’t move or attack on the turn they arrive. Lugh doesn’t have to dodge that Silver Lance Cav because it never gets the chance to attack him. Anyone with ranged attacks doesn’t have to worry about being countered, and Lugh has 2 range.

What if he doesn't double or misses? Then he'd need to be rescued and then someone else would be a less effective fighter.

First off, Lugh doesn’t miss. Anyway, how is Lugh wounded before fighting those? He’s not getting targeted by ranged attacks, and he can keep back enough to be out of melee range (or you could wall him, since you have to protect your healers anyway). In the event he does get hit by something, we have 3 healers, or even Vulneraries. Lugh isn’t OHKOd, so it’s fine if a Dragon flies around and attacks him.

No unit doesn't miss. Bad luck happens. He can get targeted and get hit even if the chance is low. Again it's unlikely for all three healers to be in use.

Being protected isn’t necessarily walling him completely. It just means that he shouldn’t be left open to a swarm of enemies. Those axers have low hit on him, so as long as he isn’t attacked by large groups, he still has an Enemy phase.

As long as it isn’t a magic user… well those are fairly common. There are several scattered in the desert with a fairly large attack range. As for Chapter 11, there are 16-18 atk Shamans scattered around that really hurt Gonzales. Also, Bolting/Purge is more threatening to Gonzales than Lords are to Lugh.

Not as much as Gonzales which means less EXP and that means slower level gains. That's true. But if they have 18 attack at most he'll only be 4 hit killed meaning in that time he can be healed or the enemy is likely to already have been defeated.

They’re dangerous for anyone on Enemy Phase, but Lugh can attack at range on Player Phase to avoid counters. Gonzales has bad enough hit without trying Hand Axes.

One bad placement and you need to restart the chapter. Gonzales can take a hit and probably won't be doubled. If he is he still likely won't die. Lugh on the other hand, likely will.

Same applies for Lugh and those Dragons. Since he’s at full health, he’s safe against them. That Hero OHKOs Gonzales 30% of the time, and healing can’t stop that.

How can a Hero OHKO Gonzales? If it's a Killing Edge then that's not his fault and anyways 30% is pretty low.

If Gonzales gets hit with sleep, then the enemies will attack him. After the Purge Bishop, his durability is a lot shakier. And he can’t very well avoid the Merc/Hero groups unless he’s hiding in the back lines, in which case the healer can’t advance when restoring his status. The Sword guys will attack Gonzales if he gets in range.

So wall him. That's what's done with Lugh.

If they have Javelins, they’re attacking someone who won’t counter them.

20/12 Lugh A Chad B Ellen

Elfire

31 atk, 22 AS, 36 Crit, 144 hit; 35 HP, 10.5 def, 80 avo

Level 10 Dragon Lord

Silver Lance

33 atk, 12 AS, 96 hit; 48 HP, 3 res

It has 5.28 True on him, and most of the Riders can’t hit Lugh at all. His durability is just fine. I’ve never actually seen Gale attack, but he would need at least 45 atk to OHKO Lugh (possibly 46). Murdock only has 40, so I doubt Gale has it. Yes, Chad is fielded here, because Murdock has that Knight Crest to steal.

Gale does attack and he's powerful and accurate Gale would need to be killed in one turn since otherwise Lugh can easily die.

Chad will not be fielded for the Knight Crest since nobody needs it at this stage.

I'll post this in the voting topic. Can a Moderator please lock this?

[Mekkah]

Gergeshwan made detailed arguments of several paragraphs and luigi bros responds with semi-relevant one-liners.

Gergeshwan

[Dat Nick]

Not only am I seeing barely any valid points from Luigi bros just looking at his last 2 posts against Gergeshwan's generally passable arguments, Luigi Bros flat out contradicted himself:

Clarine and Ellen are likely in use. Clarine because I think she's usually considered good and Ellen since you said she's supporting Gonzales. So three healers means that at least one should be able to heal Gonzales.

He then later said:

It's unlikely for Ellen to be in use since usually only one healer is used and I think most people choose Clarine or even Saul over Ellen. So

Ellen isn't likely to be in use. Chad likely won't be able to take too many hits so if there's no tresure chests not many people may bring him.

If you have to ditch a previous argument to make another one fly, that's a sign that you don't have a very good case. Voting Gergeshwan