FE9 Tier list v3

[Radiant Dragon]

I hope you realise that Tormod vs Soren is nowhere near the wipeout that is Rofl vs Astrid, especially since Astrid joins ~3 chapters after rofl whereas Tormod joins 11 after Soren (both excluding chapter 10). That alone is ignoring the fact that Astrid >>>>>>>>>>> Rofl, and that Tormod is NOT >>>>>>>>>>>>> Soren.

If you didn't realize that I was mocking Cynthia's argument, then you need to get your reading comprehension skills checked.

And I agree that geoffrey is too high.

So do I. He should be below Haar, at least. And why is Calill still below Gatrie?

[Zkirsche]

If you didn't realize that I was mocking Cynthia's argument, then you need to get your reading comprehension skills checked.

I could tell that hier tier was an exaggeration, but your post read more of 'I can apply this to a ridiculous situation and that is why it sucks' than 'L0L0L0L0L Rofl for high'.

So do I. He should be below Haar, at least. And why is Calill still below Gatrie?

Agreed. Flight and more availability.

[Anouleth]

I certainly think that Geoffrey deserves to remain a tier above Largo. Rather, Haar should move up, rather than Geoffrey down.

[aku chi]

I agree with what RFoF is saying, by the way. Staffbot Tormod/Ilyana/Soren are kind of wastes of time when the best healer post-promotion is clearly Mist.

1) I don't think it's so clear. Low resources Mist (<300 Bexp + Master Seal) has her own set of pros and cons when compared with staffbot Soren/Ilyana:

+ Chip healing in chapters 9 and 10.

- Inferior performance in chapters 11 - 15 (or until whenever Mist promotes).

+ 2 more mov and canto post-promotion (huge advantage). Allows her to mostly keep up with the 9-movers and use 1-range staves, makes her better with the Rescue staff, and canto gives her more positioning possibilities.

+ A slightly higher staff level.

- Inferior Physic range to Soren.

- Inferior offense, especially to Soren (Mist can probably 2HKO Bishops and Sages with a Steel Forge but needs two Arms Scrolls and the Sonic Sword to do any kind of damage to other foes).

- No siege magic.

I could certainly agree that staffbot Mist's post-promotion movement advantage outweighs staffbot Soren's advantages, but it's still clear that Soren/Ilyana have some advantages.

2) I understood that this tier list did not assume optimal deployment, so staffbot Soren/Ilyana's performance should definitely be considered for playthroughs that don't involve Mist.

I certainly think that Geoffrey deserves to remain a tier above Largo. Rather, Haar should move up, rather than Geoffrey down.

I can agree with this.

[Anouleth]

1) I don't think it's so clear. Low resources Mist (<300 Bexp + Master Seal) has her own set of pros and cons when compared with staffbot Soren/Ilyana:

+ Chip healing in chapters 9 and 10.

- Inferior performance in chapters 11 - 15 (or until whenever Mist promotes).

+ 2 more mov and canto post-promotion (huge advantage). Allows her to mostly keep up with the 9-movers and use 1-range staves, makes her better with the Rescue staff, and canto gives her more positioning possibilities.

+ A slightly higher staff level.

- Inferior Physic range to Soren.

- Inferior offense, especially to Soren (Mist can probably 2HKO Bishops and Sages with a Steel Forge but needs two Arms Scrolls and the Sonic Sword to do any kind of damage to other foes).

- No siege magic.

I could certainly agree that staffbot Mist's post-promotion movement advantage outweighs staffbot Soren's advantages, but it's still clear that Soren/Ilyana have some advantages.

It should be noted that even though on paper, Soren's physic range is greater, in practice, Mist's is just as good because she can move further and then use physic. And since the gap between their magic stats is so small, the actual difference between their raw physic range is usually only 1.

2) I understood that this tier list did not assume optimal deployment, so staffbot Soren/Ilyana's performance should definitely be considered for playthroughs that don't involve Mist.

I am happy to assume optimal deployment for non-combatants. For instance, I am happy to assume that we have at least 1 restore user in Chapter 21 and at least one healer in other chapters, just as I am happy to assume the use of Volke/Sothe to get certain items such as the Boots, and the use of Reyson. Otherwise, we would need to change quite a few things on the tier list - for instance, Reyson might drop if the Boots were not always in play, and the value of Canto would also be decreased without Reyson.

[-Cynthia-]

Moved Haar up above Devdan.

As for Gatrie/Calill, Gatrie's positioning is based mostly on his early performance, not his later performance. I do think Calill is better when they're both around, but whether this outweighs Gatrie's early (and average midgame) contributions is tough to gauge.

I agree that Soren/Ilyana/Tormod all take resources. Tormod's payoff is higher for the chapters where he exists, while Soren and Ilyana give us a payoff earlier.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

No, you haven't. Soren and Ilyana are NOT going to reach level 20/1 by the time Tormod appears without being fed tons of BEXP and tons of kills. Resources are not 'free' just because the other guy isn't around yet. If you do that, then Soren/Ilyana's team as a whole will be weaker because they took a very large volume of EXP away from other units.

You're still missing the point. I do not expect Soren/Ilyana to make it to 20/1 unassisted at that in time, but the amount of resources needed to get there is nowhere close to what Tormod needs. If you want to argue that Soren/Ilyana are undeserving of having resources put into them, the exact same logic can be applied to Tormod, in which case you could argue them all to Low or something.

Yeah, because in an environment where Paladins are racing forward at full move every single turn, we are really going to bother stealing a fucking Physic staff so some 6 move scrub can actually be useful.

You're sandbagging due to laziness?

[Anouleth]

You're still missing the point. I do not expect Soren/Ilyana to make it to 20/1 unassisted at that in time, but the amount of resources needed to get there is nowhere close to what Tormod needs. If you want to argue that Soren/Ilyana are undeserving of having resources put into them, the exact same logic can be applied to Tormod, in which case you could argue them all to Low or something.

Uh, I am not saying that they do not deserve these resources. Rather, I am saying that you are comparing Tormod with 700 BEXP from Chapter 15 against Soren/Ilyana that got 700 BEXP straight away, then kills for 7 chapters, then 700 more BEXP. Obviously, this is unequal, and it's no wonder that Soren/Ilyana are shitstomping Tormod when they get much more stuff.

You're sandbagging due to laziness?

It has nothing to do with laziness. A seven move combat failure like Volke is obviously going to struggle to reach the frontlines. Since you earlier claimed that 8 move Tormod is going to be 'outrun', what hope does Volke have?

The fact is, if you play aggressively and use fliers correctly, many physic staves are just impossible to reach. The Physic staff in 17-2 cannot be reached, nor can the one in Chapter 20, or Chapter 21, or Chapter 22, or 23, or 25, or 26. It would be great if there were Physic staff holders standing around in easily accessible areas, but as it is, most of them stand on the other side of terrain, and often, a long way away from the starting location. Some of them also carry other annoying things, such as Sleep staves or siege tomes, so we will prioritise killing them.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Uh, I am not saying that they do not deserve these resources. Rather, I am saying that you are comparing Tormod with 700 BEXP from Chapter 15 against Soren/Ilyana that got 700 BEXP straight away, then kills for 7 chapters, then 700 more BEXP. Obviously, this is unequal, and it's no wonder that Soren/Ilyana are shitstomping Tormod when they get much more stuff.

Yes, and that was in response to the 20/1 even comparison where Tormod got 700 and then another 700 BEXP and Soren/Ilyana got 700 BEXP. The numbers, as you can see, match up. They are equally valid comparisons.

It has nothing to do with laziness. A seven move combat failure like Volke is obviously going to struggle to reach the frontlines. Since you earlier claimed that 8 move Tormod is going to be 'outrun', what hope does Volke have?

Does not require moving to the front.

The fact is, if you play aggressively and use fliers correctly, many physic staves are just impossible to reach. The Physic staff in 17-2 cannot be reached, nor can the one in Chapter 20, or Chapter 21, or Chapter 22, or 23, or 25, or 26. It would be great if there were Physic staff holders standing around in easily accessible areas, but as it is, most of them stand on the other side of terrain, and often, a long way away from the starting location. Some of them also carry other annoying things, such as Sleep staves or siege tomes, so we will prioritise killing them.

You can reach the one in Chapter 20 in 3 turns, though I don't know the likelihood of 2 turns, one of the physicers in 21 is out of the path of the fastest way to seize and is easily reachable by that time, and the one in 25 is reachable in 3 turns. Even only one of these physics you'll need to last you to 27, maybe even just the 15 one, and you might want to pick up physics if not for sages, for Mist/Elincia possibly instead.

[Radiant Dragon]

+ 2 more mov and canto post-promotion (huge advantage). Allows her to mostly keep up with the 9-movers and use 1-range staves, makes her better with the Rescue staff, and canto gives her more positioning possibilities.

So Mist having 8 move compared to Soren's 6 is a huge advantage while Tormod having 8 move over Soren's 6 move isn't? Or were you not one of the ones arguing that Tormod's extra move is moot? Or was that applied only to Canto?

Also, Mist needs far more than 300 BEXP to reach promotion.

@Cynthia: I agree Calill's performance vs. Gatrie's early game is hard to judge. I'm inclined to side with Calill mostly because the early maps are all beaten very quickly due to Titania (he's really only a big help in 5 and 7 before leaving), and better offense is simply much more useful than tanking later on. A lot of people have good offense though, (although most all require more resources than Calill), while few can tank as well as Gatrie.

[aku chi]

So Mist having 8 move compared to Soren's 6 is a huge advantage while Tormod having 8 move over Soren's 6 move isn't? Or were you not one of the ones arguing that Tormod's extra move is moot? Or was that applied only to Canto?

First, to be clear: my focus in this topic thus far has been on the staffbot, or low-resources, use of the Mages and Mist. With this playstyle, there are two big reasons why Mist's movement advantages are more important than Tormod's:

1) Canto is a huge advantage. Mist/Tormod can still fall behind in straight-up race maps due to 9 mov units. Mist can take her action first each turn, moving to heal and cantoing up her full 8 movement and so will always have a staff target for the first 8 turns (the whole chapter, essentially). Tormod cannot do this, so if he can't reach the frontline units after their turn actions, and must therefore heal before they move, he cannot take advantage of full movement, and will fall behind in 2-3 turns. Canto also helps Mist reposition herself to a safer location after healing (particularly important in Endgame if she doesn't have the Physic range to outrange Ashnard)

2) Mist has a higher staff rank than Tormod, which means that she can use Restore and Ward well before Tormod (which need to be used at 1 range, and therefore require more movement). She can also use Rescue (more movement = more effective) and Sleep (closer = better), which Tormod probably cannot.

Mist is a better staffbot also because she exists during chapters 9-15 (even if she isn't anything special). Tormod does have better movement in Chapter 25, better offense, siege magic, and can be rescue-dropped, which is worth something. But Tormod's poor availability and staff rank result in him being the worst staffbot, in my opinion.

Also, Mist needs far more than 300 BEXP to reach promotion.

Mr. Anouleth's suggestion was to give Mist ~300 Bexp at some point during chapters 9-15 and then she will be Level 10 (through Sexp) at the beginning of chapter 16 to be given a Master Seal. Maybe it might take up to 400 Bexp, but not too much more than Tormod needs for an insta-seal. If you want a Mist that can hold her own in combat, then you will need to give her more resources, but that would be an unfair comparison with the staffbot Mages.

Chiming in on the Physic availability discussion, I agree that many of the possible Physics are in inefficient-to-obtain locations (including the Chapter 16 treasure), but Chapter 15's Physic can take us a long way, so long as we use it conservatively and don't spam it for exp. It can probably take us up to Chapter 25, where it's plausible to nab another (it's a rout chapter so we need to reach each enemy, the Paladins don't race ahead of Volke here, and the Bishop in question does not weild Sleep or Purge). That will easily hold us until Endgame, where we can purchase another Physic.

Edited May 9, 2011 by aku chi

[Anouleth]

Yes, and that was in response to the 20/1 even comparison where Tormod got 700 and then another 700 BEXP and Soren/Ilyana got 700 BEXP. The numbers, as you can see, match up. They are equally valid comparisons.

If you have a problem with someone's comparison, then point it out instead of passive-aggressively coming up with an even more flawed comparison. And I call it 'even more flawed' since the BEXP that Tormod takes is strictly speaking, less valuable than the BEXP that Soren takes because it comes later.

As it is, it might be the case that even with twice as much BEXP as Soren and Ilyana, Tormod is still taking an equal amount of EXP away from the 'rest of the team' (because Soren and Ilyana still take CEXP away from the others). Nobody's ever actually done a comparison like that before, so all we can really do is guess, but if that's the case, then the comparison really is purely availability against movement.

Does not require moving to the front.

Are the Bishops going to come to Volke?

You can reach the one in Chapter 20 in 3 turns, though I don't know the likelihood of 2 turns

It's acheivable for any player that didn't forgo Reyson in favour of the Renewal Scroll.

, one of the physicers in 21 is out of the path of the fastest way to seize and is easily reachable by that time,

There is only one Physic staff user in Chapter 21, in the Throne room.

and the one in 25 is reachable in 3 turns.

Yet ideally, he dies on turn 2 to stop him from healing Gromell or other annoying enemies.

Even only one of these physics you'll need to last you to 27, maybe even just the 15 one, and you might want to pick up physics if not for sages, for Mist/Elincia possibly instead.

Sure, the Physic might last you until 27 if it's in the hands of Mist. But if it's a sage, or Rhys, who is completely 100% dependent on it to heal units, I can see it burning out faster.

[Radiant Dragon]

Is this maximum efficiency yet? Because if it isn't, then I see nothing wrong with taking an extra turn or two to nab the Chapter 16 and 20 Physics (and the Bolting), since even if they won't be saving any turns, they still make strategies easier. The fact that we need to slow down for the Physics could be considered a negative for those who rely on them though, I suppose.

[aku chi]

Is this maximum efficiency yet? Because if it isn't, then I see nothing wrong with taking an extra turn or two to nab the Chapter 16 and 20 Physics (and the Bolting), since even if they won't be saving any turns, they still make strategies easier. The fact that we need to slow down for the Physics could be considered a negative for those who rely on them though, I suppose.

It would take at least 2-3 extra turns to get the Chapter 16 Physic and Bolting; they're way out of the way. That might even put us past the Bexp turn limit, so we would have to sacrifice some Bexp, too.

As for Chapter 20, I haven't attempted a 2-turn clear, so I'm not sure how practical it is to get the Rescue Staff, Smite Scroll, and steal the Physic in 2/3 turns. Physic can definitely make Chapter 25 easier; it might even be able to save a turn, so I think spending an extra turn to get a Physic is reasonable, if you can't make the Chapter 15 Physic last. You might also be able to save some Meteor uses that the 2-turn strategy requires, and maybe get Shine and the Provoke Scroll drops. A 3-turn clear sounds very reasonable to me.

In general, I think spending an extra turn to get a treasure rarely pays for itself later: the Boots, Rescue Staff, and Resolve Scroll are probably the biggest exceptions. But on the other hand, there usually exist (N+1)- turn strategies that are less risky/costly than N-turn strategies, so if you can combine a valuable treasure or two with a less risky clear, that seems worthwhile to me.

[Radiant Dragon]

I would say it would only take two extra turns to get the Chapter 16 treasures, which would put the Seize at turn 6 or so, which is within max BEXP requirements.

While taking extra turns earlier rarely pays off in terms of turns spent later, they can make chapters easier/less luck reliant.

[aku chi]

I would now like to analyze the chapter-by-chapter contributions from the Mages when we invest in them enough resources to ORKO and make other relevant combat contributions. This will probably take around 1000 Bexp, 2-3 forges, and maybe even an Arms Scroll. Some of this analysis will be redundant with my previous post, but I hope enough is novel here to be worth posting and reading.

Chapter-by-Chapter Contributions:

Chapter 4: Soren can chip here and there, but probably isn't contributing much towards completing the chapter (he can deal good damage to the boss, but gets 2HKO'd in return).

Chapter 5: Self improvement for Soren. He can reach level 3 by the end of the chapter.

Chapter 6: Soren is a deadweight here.

Chapter 7: This is a rout, and Soren can contribute by teaming up with Mia or Oscar or Ike or Boyd for kills, because they aren't (with the possible exception of a blessed Boyd or Ike) ORKO machines at this point. Soren can easily get to level 5 by the end of this chapter.

Chapter 8: Well, Soren can take ~800 Bexp to ORKO everything in this chapter, but that won't notably help our efforts, so Soren can just use this for self improvement to get up to level 7. Ilyana can chip a few rounds for some Cexp.

Chapter 9: Soren and Ilyana need to be around level 9-10 (200-350 Bexp) to double the non-Myrmidons on the beach. They won't be able to ORKO without a forge (not affordable at this point), but they can help out a little.

Chapter 10: If you stealth, the Mages do nothing. If you brute-force, they still probably do nothing.

Chapter 11: Again, with enough Bexp and a forge, Soren and Ilyana can become ORKO machines, but this won't much help our efforts. At level 11, Soren/Ilyana can still double and 3HKO most enemies, so they can contribute a little getting to the south or north houses.

Chapter 12: Unless we early-clear with Super Marcia, we have several turns for our Mage to chip against Ravens for self-improvement. Hardly anybody can double the Ravens, so Soren/Ilyana's contributions on player phase are as good as most (Soren can almost 2HKO with Elwind). Of course, they can't tank the Ravens, so they need to be kept safe (trivial). They can reach level 13 or 14 here.

Chapter 13: To early-clear this chapter, we need to rout the enemies, and Soren/Ilyana can help here. With a Fire or Thunder forge, a level 14 Soren can ORKO everthing he doubles (he misses the Ravens, the Halberdiers, and most Myrmidons). A level 14/15 Ilyana misses out on a lot of doubles. If we give her a Speedwing, she can match Soren's performance with a Thunder forge.

Chapter 14: Soren/Ilyana are likely to get left behind here. They can contribute on turn 1 by granting vision (Mages have better vision than most).

Chapter 15: Soren/Ilyana can deal great damage to Muarim while avoiding his counter-attacks, so they are worth considering as a drop candidate for a 3-turn clear. We will almost certainly want to promote them for this strategy. From level 16, it will take ~650 more Bexp (or 500 and a Seal) to get them to 20/1. With a fire forge, Soren can deal 19 damage, 21 with a Spirit Dust. Ilyana can deal 17 or 19. All at 100% accuracy. This is enough to let your trained flier 2HKO Muarim (player phase and enemy phase) with a Steel forge or maybe even OHKO with a Laguz Lance if you want to risk the inaccuracy. With even more resources (20/5 + Speedwing + Spirit Dust), Soren can pull off an impressive ORKO of Muarim, but that's probably only relevant in draft play.

Chapter 16: If we give Tormod 977 Bexp, he can get up to level 16. Now he's received about the same resources as Soren/Ilyana. He's received a little more Bexp, but received it later when it isn't quite as valuable, and hasn't needed any Cexp (some of which other units were deprived of when Soren/Ilyana received them). In this chapter, Soren and Ilyana are going to be left behind, in all likelihood. They can stay behind and pick off the reinforcements for no reason other than self-improvement. Tormod might also struggle to keep up here with only 7 mov. He can't double the Myrmidons or even all of the Mages, so he can't do much either (if he gets to the Knights, he can 2HKO with a forge). He might want to just wait for the reinforcements for Cexp.

Chapter 17-1: A rout chapter where the Mages might be able to help out a little. Let's take a look at their stats:

20/2 Soren

31 HP, 3 Str, 19 Mag, 21 Skl, 18 Spd, 11 Lck, 7 Def, 20 Res

20/2 Ilyana

30.75 HP, 6.75 Str, 16.5 Mag, 18.75 Skl, 15.5 Spd, 12.75 Lck, 7.25 Def, 19.5 Res

17 Tormod

25 HP, 4 Str, 14.5 Mag, 13 Skl, 13.5 Spd, 11.5 Lck, 6.5 Def, 13.5 Res

Soren is in great shape, being able to ORKO every enemy except the reinforcement Myrmidons (who are devilishly fast). Ilyana with a Speedwing is almost as good, but Tormod and sans-Speedwing Ilyana are just going to be able to chip here (Tormod with 1 extra mov).

Chapter 17-2: All three Mages are likely to get left behind in this race to the finish.

Chapter 17-3: Defending is trivial, so this is the longest self-improvement chapter in the game. In addition to getting a bunch of Cexp (Tormod might even promote here), the Mages probably want to focus on improving key weapon levels. Soren and Ilyana want to get C Fire (ideally by Chapter 20 for Meteor), while Tormod might want to work towards C Thunder (by Chapter 23 for Bolting), but only after he's promoted. Thanks to the vast amount of enemies and Venin weapons, it also shouldn't be difficult for Soren/Ilyana to find a healing targets. Soren/Ilyana might even reach D Staves during this chapter if you've been taking advantage of every healing opportunity.

Chapter 17-4: I don't see any of the Mages doing much here.

Chapter 18: If Tormod hasn't promoted yet, we should Seal / Bexp (<100) him. Soren/Ilyana will be left behind in this race while a newly promoted Tormod just might keep up. Soren/Ilyana are destined to stay behind and help deal with the reinforcements. A promoted Tormod can double most of the enemies here, and with a forge and Spirit Dust, he can 2HKO them all, so that's nice.

Chapter 19: It's over before the Sages can do much.

Chapter 20: If your Sages have C Fire, they can siege bomb Shiharam. They're likely to do at least as well as base Calill, but not much better... They can also help visit houses, but they need to be careful because the Wyvern Riders here can easily kill the Sages if they have the opportunity.

Chapter 21: Soren/Ilyana's poor movement definitely hurts them here. The best they can hope for is to accompany some units up north on a chest looting quest. Tormod isn't much better, because while he can keep up for a few turns, he's unlikely to be ferried to the throne room, so he might also be helping to loot some chests.

Chapter 22: So, there's this guy named Schaeffer that we might want to siege-bomb. Let's take a look at the stats now, assuming 7 levels for Tormod and 5 for Soren/Ilyana since Chapter 17-1:

20/7 Soren

33.25 HP, 3.25 Str, 22 Mag, 23.75 Skl, 20 Spd, 12.5 Lck, 7.75 Def, 22.75 Res

20/7 Ilyana

33 HP, 8 Str, 19 Mag, 21 Skl, 17 Spd, 15 Lck, 8 Def, 22 Res

20/4 Tormod

32 HP, 7.2 Str, 18.2 Mag, 17.4 Skl, 18.2 Spd, 13.6 Lck, 10 Def, 18.2 Res

To 2HKO Schaeffer, our Sage needs 24 Magic. Soren gets this with a Spirit Dust (a B Ike Support gives him +1 attack in case he is slightly Mag-screwed). Tormod, interestingly, can have up to +5 attack from his supports at this point, so if you've been fielding Devdan, Calill, and Reyson, and gave Tormod a Spirit Dust, he can pull off the 2HKO. If Ilyana has fully supported with Mia and Mordecai, and taken a Spirit Dust, she too might be able to pull off the 2HKO. It's not a huge deal if the Sage misses out on the 2HKO; they can always tag-team with base Calill for the kill, at the expense of an extra Meteor use. Of course, Soren and Ilyana need to develop C Fire for this. While this isn't too hard, Fire magic does have to be purposefully used, which isn't necessarily optimal for Soren and Ilyana. A single Arms Scroll will work as well if they don't have C Fire.

Chapter 23: I like to siege the Ballistae operators in this chapter (to clear the way for Reyson). With Bolting (easily obtained in Chapter 22), Spirit Dust Soren can OHKO all but one of the operators. Bolting requires C Thunder, which isn't trivial to get along with C Fire, so it might be necessary to use an Arms Scroll for one of them. Ilyana and Tormod need some lucky level-ups and/or both Spirit Dusts (the latter of which is generally inefficient to get) to have a chance to OHKO the Ballistae operators here. However, with a Speedwings or Energy Drop, they might be able to double some of the operators with Meteor, which is pretty cool. All three Sages, but definitely Soren and Ilyana, may need to be ferried to get within range of the Ballistae. Otherwise, the Sages can't do much in this chapter except inconsequentially fight reinforcements.

Chapter 24: A race to the finish will leave Soren/Ilyana behind. Tormod can mostly keep up and heal/attack as needed.

Chapter 25: The last rout chapter, so let's take another look at stats, assuming 3 levels for Soren/Ilyana and 4 levels for Tormod (a bit generous, but maybe we throw them a little Bexp):

20/10 Soren

34.6 HP, 3.4 Str, 23.8 Mag, 25.4 Skl, 21.2 Spd, 13.4 Lck, 8.2 Def, 24.4 Res

20/10 Ilyana

34.35 HP, 8.75 Str, 20.5 Mag, 22.35 Skl, 17.9 Spd, 16.35 Lck, 8.45 Def, 23.5 Res

20/8 Tormod

34 HP, 8 Str, 20 Mag, 19 Skl, 20 Spd, 15 Lck, 11 Def, 20 Res

Soren and Tormod can double all of the enemies except the Swordmasters and fast laguz. Ilyana struggles to double a lot of enemies unless we gave her a Speedwing. 20/22 Magic and a Fire/Thunder forge is generally enough to 2HKO most enemies, but Soren's extra Magic and Adept can come in handy against some of the foes. Of course, we're going to have trouble getting Soren and Ilyana to reach many enemies in the first place. If they have C Staves (possible if healing was a priority), they're probably best off healing with Physic. Soren, in particular, is pretty impressive with his 12-13 Physic range, letting him heal across the map. They can also use siege tomes to clear out some of the more pesky enemies. Doubling with Blizzard might be possible here, although Ilyana and Tormod might need an Arms Scroll to weild it. Tormod can keep up on the mountain trails, healing and attacking as needed. All of the Sages can tank and deal decent damage against Gromell, if he can be lured to them (Soren being the best for this task).

Chapter 26: The Sages probably won't be doing much to help in this straight-forward chapter. Tormod might be able to keep up and clear some enemies, but he has to be careful not to get swarmed. If they can get in range (easy for Tormod), they might be able to weaken Bertram with siege magic.

Chapter 27: Tormod can keep up and contribute offensively here. Soren/Ilyana probably won't be able to do anything except Physic and siege (hopefully Hafedd).

Chapter 28: Tormod might be able to keep up and help on offense (especially with a Fire forge against beast laguz). Soren/Ilyana can siege if any uses are left.

Endgame: The Sages probably aren't going to make big contributions in endgame. They can use up the remaining siege tomes to help clear out Dragons or Bryce. If they have C Staves (trivial for Soren/Ilyana, possible for Tormod), they can help heal during the Ashnard fight. They should all have the Physic range to stay out of Ashnard's range while they heal.

In summary: Soren and Ilyana can make some minor contributions in the early-mid game, possibly a significant contribution in Chapter 15. Tormod needs to promote before he can gain any noticeable advantages over the other Sages. Once promoted, he can make better contributions in the chapters which are a footrace (18, 21, 24, 26, 27, 28, and maybe 23 & 25). Soren's greater magic can help secure more impressive siege tome performances in chapters 22 and 23, if he gets the weapon levels. Ilyana's poor Speed is noticeable throughout the game. A Speedwing really helps out in that respect, but it is a high-competition resource.

Having done this examination, my general impression of the Mages' potential performances:

Low-resources / Staffbot: Soren > Ilyana >> Tormod

High-resources / Trained: Soren ~= Tormod >> Ilyana

I wouldn't use Tormod as a staffbot. I can't use him as my only staff user (due to staff level), and I really don't need a second staff user. Even 300 Bexp and a Master Seal isn't worth what I get. Training Tormod, on the other hand, is costly, but it does result in a pretty good combatant with siege and healing utility. With Ilyana, I'm not sure it pays to train her. Even after investing almost 1000 Bexp and a Speedwing, Ilyana is just a decent combatant with poor durability and movement. Her only real value is in staff use and siege magic, which I can get sufficiently with staffbot Ilyana and base Calill for a lot lower cost. Soren, I can use competently as both a staffbot and a trained fighter/sieger, with the only downside (compared with Ilyana) being that I need to keep him alive and feed him some kills in chapters 4-8.

[Anouleth]

I would say it would only take two extra turns to get the Chapter 16 treasures, which would put the Seize at turn 6 or so, which is within max BEXP requirements.

While taking extra turns earlier rarely pays off in terms of turns spent later, they can make chapters easier/less luck reliant.

If we can take extra turns to grab a Physic, we can take extra turns to let a slow unit catch up and use Heal instead. Or take extra turns to use Vulneraries, or lure out smaller groups of enemies at a time, or position characters so that no one character gets mobbed by lots of units, or whatever.

[Radiant Dragon]

In summary: Soren and Ilyana can make some minor contributions in the early-mid game, possibly a significant contribution in Chapter 15. Tormod needs to promote before he can gain any noticeable advantages over the other Sages. Once promoted, he can make better contributions in the chapters which are a footrace (18, 21, 24, 26, 27, 28, and maybe 23 & 25). Soren's greater magic can help secure more impressive siege tome performances in chapters 22 and 23, if he gets the weapon levels. Ilyana's poor Speed is noticeable throughout the game. A Speedwing really helps out in that respect, but it is a high-competition resource.

Having done this examination, my general impression of the Mages' potential performances:

Low-resources / Staffbot: Soren > Ilyana >> Tormod

High-resources / Trained: Soren ~= Tormod >> Ilyana

I wouldn't use Tormod as a staffbot. I can't use him as my only staff user (due to staff level), and I really don't need a second staff user. Even 300 Bexp and a Master Seal isn't worth what I get. Training Tormod, on the other hand, is costly, but it does result in a pretty good combatant with siege and healing utility. With Ilyana, I'm not sure it pays to train her. Even after investing almost 1000 Bexp and a Speedwing, Ilyana is just a decent combatant with poor durability and movement. Her only real value is in staff use and siege magic, which I can get sufficiently with staffbot Ilyana and base Calill for a lot lower cost. Soren, I can use competently as both a staffbot and a trained fighter/sieger, with the only downside (compared with Ilyana) being that I need to keep him alive and feed him some kills in chapters 4-8.

@Chapter by chapter comparisons: I agree with most of what was said here, the only part I'd contest would be how fast the Mages leveled, since (at least in my experience) their low move/late joining prevents them from promoting until during/after Day Breaks. There's no way they're promoting in the Chapter 15 base, although it's possible to promote Soren/Ilyana in the Chapter 16 base with some favoritism and the BEXP from the desert.

Ignoring staffbot situations (there really is zero reason to use the mages solely to staffbot), where would you place Calill in relation to the Mages? Remember that her bases are very similar to a 20/2 Soren (wins HP, str, luck, def but loses skl and res), but doesn't require any resources whatsoever (she would like a Spirit Dust, I suppose). I'm of the opinion Soren > Tormod > Calill > Ilyana is the way to go, but Cynthia will probably disagree.

[-Cynthia-]

Calill's big problem is that a.she has no staff utility whatsoever and b.she's not available until C20. Ilyana has ~12 chapters before Calill joins, Calill doesn't even have 10 chapters total. Calill is a bit better in combat when she's around and doesn't require any resources, but Ilyana probably helps us more over the course of the game.

Tormod>Ilyana might be fair though, I'll wait to see if anyone opposes.

[aku chi]

@Chapter by chapter comparisons: I agree with most of what was said here, the only part I'd contest would be how fast the Mages leveled, since (at least in my experience) their low move/late joining prevents them from promoting until during/after Day Breaks. There's no way they're promoting in the Chapter 15 base, although it's possible to promote Soren/Ilyana in the Chapter 16 base with some favoritism and the BEXP from the desert.

Well, it all depends on how much Bexp you feed them. I was supposing ~850-950 Bexp to have 20/1 Soren/Ilyana by Chapter 15. They really need to be promoted to be able to handle a drop scenario in Chapter 15 (for the durability as much as anything). If you don't want/need to drop Soren/Ilyana in Chapter 15, you can cut back on the Bexp and promote them in Chapter 17's base without much loss otherwise.

Ignoring staffbot situations (there really is zero reason to use the mages solely to staffbot), where would you place Calill in relation to the Mages? Remember that her bases are very similar to a 20/2 Soren (wins HP, str, luck, def but loses skl and res), but doesn't require any resources whatsoever (she would like a Spirit Dust, I suppose). I'm of the opinion Soren > Tormod > Calill > Ilyana is the way to go, but Cynthia will probably disagree.

Calill is so hard to compare to the other Mages, because she's played so much differently. To even compare with no-resources Calill, the Mages need a bunch of Bexp. But they have more availability and other advantages (staff utility and movement in Tormod's case). Calill is pretty much all siege utility (which I love), which is hard to evaluate in comparison with the more robust, if costly, performances of the Mages. If we make strong optimal deployment assumptions (which I'm against), Calill is the only Sage that gets used, so she is clearly the best. But the fact remains that the Mages (even Ilyana) can contribute more in a playthrough if we give them the resources they need. To be honest, I believe that Calill is more comparable to the likes of Haar and Volke (who are too low, in my opinion) than the Mages. All three are low-resources, special-purpose units with a couple notable chapters where they can make big contributions. I'm certainly comfortable with Calill being higher than Devdan, Brom, and Geoffrey, who offer nothing vaguely unique, but I'm undecided about how to compare Calill with the Mages and Rhys.

[Radiant Dragon]

Well, it all depends on how much Bexp you feed them. I was supposing ~850-950 Bexp to have 20/1 Soren/Ilyana by Chapter 15. They really need to be promoted to be able to handle a drop scenario in Chapter 15 (for the durability as much as anything). If you don't want/need to drop Soren/Ilyana in Chapter 15, you can cut back on the Bexp and promote them in Chapter 17's base without much loss otherwise.

20/1 Soren/Ilyana are still 2HKO'd by the Tigers flanking Muarim at good accuracy, and are not getting Muarim into OHKO range without significant amounts of BEXP, a Fire forge and a Speedwings.

Calill is so hard to compare to the other Mages, because she's played so much differently. To even compare with no-resources Calill, the Mages need a bunch of Bexp. But they have more availability and other advantages (staff utility and movement in Tormod's case). Calill is pretty much all siege utility (which I love), which is hard to evaluate in comparison with the more robust, if costly, performances of the Mages. If we make strong optimal deployment assumptions (which I'm against), Calill is the only Sage that gets used, so she is clearly the best. But the fact remains that the Mages (even Ilyana) can contribute more in a playthrough if we give them the resources they need. To be honest, I believe that Calill is more comparable to the likes of Haar and Volke (who are too low, in my opinion) than the Mages. All three are low-resources, special-purpose units with a couple notable chapters where they can make big contributions. I'm certainly comfortable with Calill being higher than Devdan, Brom, and Geoffrey, who offer nothing vaguely unique, but I'm undecided about how to compare Calill with the Mages and Rhys.

Calill is NOT just siege utility. She has better offense than a 20/2 Soren at base (equal magic but better AS unless Soren gets a forge) until his higher magic growth surpasses hers (and she can take a lowly contested Spirit Dust). If Ilyana can double reliably without a Speedwings, I'm fine with her > Calill, but if she can't... Her non-doubling chip just isn't very helpful, and if she's not being fed kills she'll need considerable amounts of BEXP to keep up levels wise.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

If you have a problem with someone's comparison, then point it out instead of passive-aggressively coming up with an even more flawed comparison. And I call it 'even more flawed' since the BEXP that Tormod takes is strictly speaking, less valuable than the BEXP that Soren takes because it comes later.

No, the absurdity was the point.

As it is, it might be the case that even with twice as much BEXP as Soren and Ilyana, Tormod is still taking an equal amount of EXP away from the 'rest of the team' (because Soren and Ilyana still take CEXP away from the others). Nobody's ever actually done a comparison like that before, so all we can really do is guess, but if that's the case, then the comparison really is purely availability against movement.

By this logic, we could probably establish Makalov > Oscar.

Are the Bishops going to come to Volke?

It's called "move the front past the Bishops."

It's acheivable for any player that didn't forgo Reyson in favour of the Renewal Scroll.

Of course, it was supposed to prompt an explanation of what the strategy actually is.

There is only one Physic staff user in Chapter 21, in the Throne room.

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe9/guia/cap21.htm

Yet ideally, he dies on turn 2 to stop him from healing Gromell or other annoying enemies.

And you can work around this without loss of speed. In turn, it can repay you with convenience later.

As for Tormod > Ilyana, if her speed is that much of a problem, then it could happen, but what's changed the perception from when Soren and Ilyana were deemed close enough to be adjacent? Also, speed band.

EDIT: It would also be more suited for Ilyana to move down to Tormod's tier than Tormod up to Upper Mid, because current assertions that the mages take more resources than before makes comparisons to Stefan and myrms less equal.

Edited May 10, 2011 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[-Cynthia-]

It's not as if Soren/Ilyana taking resources is a very shocking revelation. Mia/Zihark need BEXP/CEXP too. So does Nephenee, Astrid, Makalov, and a whole host of other characters in the upper tiers

@Ilyana doubling. Depends on several things, including Ilyana's level and what you count as reliable doubling. 20/1 Ilyana doubles 24/39 enemies in Chapter 16, for instance. A 20/7 Ilyana doubles 35/39 of Chapter 20's enemies, base Calill only doubles two more opponents. If we drop Ilyana down to 20/3, she still doubles 33/39 of the enemies here. PoR enemies are generally slow enough that Ilyana's Spd loss isn't that big of a deal IMO.

[Radiant Dragon]

It's not as if Soren/Ilyana taking resources is a very shocking revelation. Mia/Zihark need BEXP/CEXP too. So does Nephenee, Astrid, Makalov, and a whole host of other characters in the upper tiers

Who said it was? We may enough BEXP to train whoever we want, but Calill not needing any resources is an advantage.

@Ilyana doubling. Depends on several things, including Ilyana's level and what you count as reliable doubling. 20/1 Ilyana doubles 24/39 enemies in Chapter 16, for instance. A 20/7 Ilyana doubles 35/39 of Chapter 20's enemies, base Calill only doubles two more opponents. If we drop Ilyana down to 20/3, she still doubles 33/39 of the enemies here. PoR enemies are generally slow enough that Ilyana's Spd loss isn't that big of a deal IMO.

In that case, she can probably stay above Calill. However, the gap between the mages and Calill just isn't as big as the list indicates right now.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

It's not as if Soren/Ilyana taking resources is a very shocking revelation. Mia/Zihark need BEXP/CEXP too. So does Nephenee, Astrid, Makalov, and a whole host of other characters in the upper tiers

Yeah, but specifically, the amount seems to have changed.