FE9 Tier list v3

[Anouleth]

Certainly, I agree that when discussing Stefan we should assume that he's been recruited (rather than penalise him for the cost of recruitment), but when discussing other characters, the possibility should be left open that we don't recruit their buttbuddies. Is it really irrelevant to the question of how much Soren contributes, the possibility that Stefan isn't recruited? Of course not.

And I'm not assuming that Stefan will not be recruited. I'm merely pointing out that the possibility exists that he will not be recruited.

On top of Stefan's iffy recruitment he also *may* have an iffy deployment situation too. Devdan's sort of hard to recruit too, in Soren's defense, but 83% isn't completely unreliable. He has at the very worst a 12% chance of failure. This is by rounding down his true hit (94.30 something to 94) and rounding down his success rate from that rounded down true hit (88.36 to 88) on top of taking into account a 16/5 Tormod.

I agree that Tormod could always be a higher level. 16/5 is a bit on the conservative side, I think. And if his misses, you can always just have Calill take his Bolting and finish the job (his 36ATK and her 34ATK combine to kill Schaeffer exactly). I suppose there is the downside of costing an additional use of Bolting as well as forgoing the Bolting dropped by the Sage.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Anouleth

[Radiant Dragon]

I dislike assuming supports, but even I have to admit that this is one of those cases where there's no reason not to.

I suppose there is the downside of costing an additional use of Bolting as well as forgoing the Bolting dropped by the Sage.

Why would we have to forgo the Bolting? Any of our Paladins or Fliers can kill a Sage with a Hand Axe, Javelin or Bow. A non-Swordmaster, foot unit can get it too if they're shoved once.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Anouleth]

I dislike assuming supports, but even I have to admit that this is one of those cases where there's no reason not to.

Aside from the fact that many, perhaps even most efficient playthroughs do not recruit Stefan? Are all those playthroughs completely irrelevant to the tier list now by virtue of not recruiting everyone?

Why would we have to forgo the Bolting? Any of our Paladins or Fliers can kill a Sage with a Hand Axe, Javelin or Bow. A non-Swordmaster, foot unit can get it too if they're shoved once.

That's true, now that I look at the map.

[Radiant Dragon]

Aside from the fact that many, perhaps even most efficient playthroughs do not recruit Stefan? Are all those playthroughs completely irrelevant to the tier list now by virtue of not recruiting everyone?

That had comment had little to do with Stefan; I simply believe that many bonuses don't actually take effect in efficient play. Ike x Oscar and Jill x Mist are two that come to mind that are often cited yet rarely useful.

[Anouleth]

That had comment had little to do with Stefan; I simply believe that many bonuses don't actually take effect in efficient play. Ike x Oscar and Jill x Mist are two that come to mind that are often cited yet rarely useful.

When I say that the Soren and Stefan support should not be assumed because Stefan will not always be recruited (and besides that, will not always be fielded in the first place), and you immediately follow by saying "there is no reason not to [assume that support]", it seems perfectly natural to assume that you were talking about the support that I was talking about. Am I supposed to read your mind and determine that you were actually considering a different support?

And, I'm curious. What is this support that you see no reason to not be assumed, if not Soren/Stefan?

[Radiant Dragon]

I was talking about Tormod x Calill, sorry. If we're using them to siege the boss, then it's probably safe to assume that they have the support.

[VGE]

Tier List FAQ

High

Boyd

Ike

Reyson

Tanith

Astrid

Makalov

Eh wot?

[Lord Raven]

Good defense/offense and mount. If you compare him to mid tiers and below he actually completely deserves bottom of high tier. State your case about what you disagree with and who should be argued over him and whatnot if you're going to say something like that.

[VGE]

All my friends who played PoR says Makalov sucked.

Edit:

She should be higher. ------------------------------------------------------------------V

Edited September 7, 2011 by etern

[Lord Raven]

Makalov is actually really good if you give him a bunch of knight ward levels and some BEXP... also i'm sure ilyana and neph are fine where they are. just provide a compelling case and we'll take it into consideration

[VGE]

Not really on Ilyana. Although she IS my favourite Character, I personally believe Nephenee should be a lot higher. She should take Makalov's place, imho.

[Anouleth]

Nephenee has issues when she joins, same as Makalov. However, unlike Makalov who ends up quite amazing, Nephenee does not have such a bright future ahead of her. For example, let's suppose that both Makalov and Nephenee get six levels of BEXP upon joining, and that Nephenee gets a rather generous 5 levels over the 3 or 4 chapters before Makalov joins:

Nephenee level 18

28.05HP 12.4STR 4.2MAG 16.05SKL 17.05SPD 8.75LUK 12.85DEF 5.75RES

Makalov level 16

33.6HP 12.3STR 2.9MAG 9.7SKL 14.8SPD 9.5LUK 12.7DEF 3.2RES

As you can see, Nephenee has some minor offensive leads: she's faster, but there are no 12 or 13AS enemies in Chapter 16. She's more accurate, significantly so. And she hits harder due to a better weapon type. However, Makalov is crushing her in mobility, which is a far more important advantage than the minor attack lead.

Moreover, Makalov has better growths; and will gain Axes, the best weapon type, on promotion. So I can't really see Nephenee ever being better than Makalov. Her only notable advantage is her three chapters of availability before he joins: three chapters in which it would be a stretch to call her "good".

Edited September 7, 2011 by Anouleth

[Lord Raven]

Her other notable advantage is being a killbot in Chapter 25 which not many characters can effectively do as well as her, but her high durability actually works against her there.

[VGE]

You could make literally any character good by pumping them full of bexp. You're ignoring skills, as well. Availability is just as important as the stat gains, if not more so.

[Lord Raven]

They can't help beat chapters as fast if they're not mounted. We're aware you can make any unit good through use of BEXP, but it's all about gauging who does best when you pump equal BEXP into both. In this case, Nephenee goes from mediocre to "a bit above average" whereas Makalov goes from "mediocre" to "pretty damn good".

Edited September 7, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[VGE]

Nephenee's lower mobility means she'll see more enemies attacking her, instead of being able to get away quicker. That means she'll take more damage. Her being in danger actually plays to her advantage. If she has low HP, she ends up killing a lot more than Makalov. She's a high-risk, high-payoff type with stats just good enough that most of the time she won't even need to rely on that. If Makalov's in danger, he's in danger. Sure he has greater mobility, but then that's just him relying on running away and healing up rather than pure battle strength.

Wrath is an infinitely better skill than Tempest.

That she comes with it means you don't have to waste an occult scroll to make her a killing machine.

Edit: I really hope this doesn't turn into a fight. I do enjoy Nephenee, and clearly, you enjoy Makalov, but... ;-;

Edit 2: You can actually USE Nephenee without any bexp, whereas Makalov absolutely REQUIRES it to be usable.

Edited September 7, 2011 by etern

[Hellioning]

Nephenee's lower mobility means she'll see more enemies attacking her, instead of being able to get away quicker. That means she'll take more damage. Her being in danger actually plays to her advantage. If she has low HP, she ends up killing a lot more than Makalov. She's a high-risk, high-payoff type with stats just good enough that most of the time she won't even need to rely on that. If Makalov's in danger, he's in danger. Sure he has greater mobility, but then that's just him relying on running away and healing up rather than pure battle strength.

Wrath is an infinitely better skill than Tempest.

That she comes with it means you don't have to waste an occult scroll to make her a killing machine.

Edit: I really hope this doesn't turn into a fight. I do enjoy Nephenee, and clearly, you enjoy Makalov, but... ;-;

You, clearly, have never been in a tier debate before.

And wrath is only really useful if you add vantage to it. Otherwise, the enemy turn is gonna be a roll of the dice; even moreso then the rest of the game. Sure, the enemy might only have a 10% hit chance, but that will come up eventually.

Or not. It's hard to tell with randomness.

[VGE]

If you do give her vantage, it's still a better option because you don't also have too use a wrath scroll on her.

Also, the point to a tier list isn't pure stats and mobility. You have to look at every aspect of a character, including skills.

Otherwise the only characters in FE4 that would be any good are the ones with legendary weapons, which isn't the case.

[Anouleth]

You could make literally any character good by pumping them full of bexp.

I'm not really pumping Nephenee or Makalov full of BEXP. Both of them got six levels. By the time you get Nephenee, you can have as much as 2900BEXP, assuming you clear Chapter 10 stealthily. By the time you get Makalov, you can have as much as 4300BEXP. So really, the amount of BEXP I'm assuming they're taking isn't much at all. I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that Makalov and Nephenee, two characters who start off quite bad, should get a modest amount of BEXP to get them going.

Availability is just as important as the stat gains, if not more so.

I agree that the availability is important, but if Nephenee has performance in four chapters that can be described as "adequate", and Makalov is significantly better for the remaining 14 chapters of the game, that should be accorded as a massive win for Makalov.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Anouleth

[VGE]

Again, while Makalov absolutely requires bexp, Nephenee doesn't actually need it at all.

It might take a little longer for her to get going, but the natural exp she gains is enough for her to level through.

Edit:

Zihark would probably be high tier if he had an earth support. Ike I think should be a bit higher on the list, same as Oscar. An earth support with both of them is devastating.

Edited September 7, 2011 by etern

[Lord Raven]

Nephenee's lower mobility means she'll see more enemies attacking her, instead of being able to get away quicker.

Wrong. What you are thinking of is the instance where a Canto user would want to get the fuck out of the fray and fast. Nephenee is not such a person. Nephenee being low in movement causes her to receive less combat because the mounted units will charge ahead and beat her to the punch for kills. The +2 movement means that after around 4 turns they would be a full turn ahead of her, and even after around 2 turns they'd have left her in the dust.

That means she'll take more damage. Her being in danger actually plays to her advantage. If she has low HP, she ends up killing a lot more than Makalov. She's a high-risk, high-payoff type with stats just good enough that most of the time she won't even need to rely on that. If Makalov's in danger, he's in danger. Sure he has greater mobility, but then that's just him relying on running away and healing up rather than pure battle strength.

Nope, because her durability is far too high to hit the Wrath zone within the timeframe of an efficiency playthrough or turncount clear. Makalov provides the same killing power as Nephenee without the risk, only the resources and payoff that Nephenee almost requires.

Makalov is not going to be in danger very often especially once he promotes and gains WTA over the majority of weapon users (and those that beat him don't do enough damage to him). Even if he is, it's far easier for him to get out of the way after doing anything than it is for Nephenee, both because he's mounted and because he has Canto. Nephenee has literally ntohing of interest aside from Wrath over a mounted user, and even that is very situationally useful because there is not a large enough enemy density that she'll rape everything with Wrath.

Wrath is an infinitely better skill than Tempest.

That she comes with it means you don't have to waste an occult scroll to make her a killing machine.

An Occult scroll will rarely, if ever, make someone a killing machine. In fact, you need to justify why we need a killing machine. They both kill on their own rights, but Makalov doesn't need half HP to do it; he's strong enough with his Str growth, mount, and Axes to be able to do it. Just because Wrath > Tempest doesn't make Nephenee > Makalov.

Edit: I really hope this doesn't turn into a fight. I do enjoy Nephenee, and clearly, you enjoy Makalov, but... ;-;

Fuck Makalov, i hate using him but i'm keeping that out of this tier argument...

Edit 2: You can actually USE Nephenee without any bexp, whereas Makalov absolutely REQUIRES it to be usable.

Proof? Even if that were the case, if you were getting a slightly above average unit with no BEXP investment and also getting a very good unit with some BEXP investment... which one would you take?

If you do give her vantage, it's still a better option because you don't also have too use a wrath scroll on her.

She's likely enough to get Vantage compared to everyone else.

Also, the point to a tier list isn't pure stats and mobility. You have to look at every aspect of a character, including skills.

You are correct. But the fact of the matter is that Nephenee's skills advantage over Makalov isn't enough to trivialize Makalov's stat, weapon, and mobility advantage. It just happens that mobility and stats are _extremely_ large factors in determining their placement in a tier list, especially one for an efficiency tier list that aims for a lower turn count using every resource possible.

[VGE]

Wrong. What you are thinking of is the instance where a Canto user would want to get the fuck out of the fray and fast. Nephenee is not such a person. Nephenee being low in movement causes her to receive less combat because the mounted units will charge ahead and beat her to the punch for kills. The +2 movement means that after around 4 turns they would be a full turn ahead of her, and even after around 2 turns they'd have left her in the dust.

Nope, because her durability is far too high to hit the Wrath zone within the timeframe of an efficiency playthrough or turncount clear. Makalov provides the same killing power as Nephenee without the risk, only the resources and payoff that Nephenee almost requires.

Makalov is not going to be in danger very often especially once he promotes and gains WTA over the majority of weapon users (and those that beat him don't do enough damage to him). Even if he is, it's far easier for him to get out of the way after doing anything than it is for Nephenee, both because he's mounted and because he has Canto. Nephenee has literally ntohing of interest aside from Wrath over a mounted user, and even that is very situationally useful because there is not a large enough enemy density that she'll rape everything with Wrath.

An Occult scroll will rarely, if ever, make someone a killing machine. In fact, you need to justify why we need a killing machine. They both kill on their own rights, but Makalov doesn't need half HP to do it; he's strong enough with his Str growth, mount, and Axes to be able to do it. Just because Wrath > Tempest doesn't make Nephenee > Makalov.

Fuck Makalov, i hate using him but i'm keeping that out of this tier argument...

Proof? Even if that were the case, if you were getting a slightly above average unit with no BEXP investment and also getting a very good unit with some BEXP investment... which one would you take?

She's likely enough to get Vantage compared to everyone else.

You are correct. But the fact of the matter is that Nephenee's skills advantage over Makalov isn't enough to trivialize Makalov's stat, weapon, and mobility advantage. It just happens that mobility and stats are _extremely_ large factors in determining their placement in a tier list, especially one for an efficiency tier list that aims for a lower turn count using every resource possible.

> First Post:

While mobility is useful for strategies that are quick, it's not quite as useful for other strategies, which are more common in other games (again, FE4 is very bad for charging, it's better to defend most of the time).

>Last Post:

While this tier list is rather accurate for speed runs, and applicable within FE9 in and of itself, Nephenee as a character is much more useful in other games which have swaths of enemies. In FE4, assuming she had continue or some such skill as well, she'd be incredibly useful.

Going to go to play some PoR some more. Later.

[Lord Raven]

> First Post:

While mobility is useful for strategies that are quick, it's not quite as useful for other strategies, which are more common in other games (again, FE4 is very bad for charging, it's better to defend most of the time).

FE4 is actually pretty prone to charging especially since Sigurd is a pretty beastly unit and in Generation 2, getting Celice and Levin!Arthur to promotion pretty much kills the game dead. Aless, a promoted Leaf (hypothetically speaking), Oifaye, Shanan and characters like Lex!Ayra's children, Holyn!Faval, Midir!Lester and god knows who else do a great job of trivializing the game because of how well they can rush.

At any rate, a quick strategy is probably the best way to define efficiency, which is what this tier list is going for. There's not always one efficiency strategy either, but Nephenee just happens to not contribute (for the most part) to the most efficient strategies of them all. Therefore, she is relegated to mid tier.

While this tier list is rather accurate for speed runs, and applicable within FE9 in and of itself, Nephenee as a character is much more useful in other games which have swaths of enemies. In FE4, assuming she had continue or some such skill as well, she'd be incredibly useful.

Except this isn't FE4 and this isn't a game with loads of enemies.

[Hellioning]

> First Post:

While mobility is useful for strategies that are quick, it's not quite as useful for other strategies, which are more common in other games (again, FE4 is very bad for charging, it's better to defend most of the time).

>Last Post:

While this tier list is rather accurate for speed runs, and applicable within FE9 in and of itself, Nephenee as a character is much more useful in other games which have swaths of enemies. In FE4, assuming she had continue or some such skill as well, she'd be incredibly useful.

Going to go to play some PoR some more. Later.

These are both completely true.

Which is why it's such a SHAME that she's only in Path of Radiance, isn't it? While Nephenee is still useful and, like most people in this game, you can certainly use her if you wish, Makalov is simply better.

[Anouleth]

Again, while Makalov absolutely requires bexp, Nephenee doesn't actually need it at all.

It might take a little longer for her to get going, but the natural exp she gains is enough for her to level through.

Okay then. Let's take my comparison again, only without the 6 levels of BEXP for Nephenee:

Nephenee level 12

24.75HP 10STR 3MAG 12.75SKL 13.75SPD 7.25LUK 10.75DEF 4.25RES

Makalov level 16

33.6HP 12.3STR 2.9MAG 9.7SKL 14.8SPD 9.5LUK 12.7DEF 3.2RES

Now, Nephenee is frequently failing to double and has outright worse durability in addition to having much less movement. How is Nephenee winning?

> First Post:

While mobility is useful for strategies that are quick, it's not quite as useful for other strategies, which are more common in other games (again, FE4 is very bad for charging, it's better to defend most of the time).

In the same way, Skills are useful for strategies that are quick, but they're not quite as useful for other strategies.

>Last Post:

While this tier list is rather accurate for speed runs, and applicable within FE9 in and of itself, Nephenee as a character is much more useful in other games which have swaths of enemies. In FE4, assuming she had continue or some such skill as well, she'd be incredibly useful.

Continue is only useful for quick strategies. If you don't care about being quick, you can just take an extra turn to kill the enemy.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Anouleth