Soren37 vs. Kevin

[Soren37]

First official debate! Woo! Good luck!

So, to start off, Nephenee is probably one of the cutest characters in FE9. She's right up there with Ilyana and FE10!Mia. She has nice legs, that helmet is just too cute, and she's a country girl. Mordecai's a blue tiger...IS really dropped the ball on identifying tiger colours.

Joking aside, Nephenee is the better choice for a character over Mordecai from an efficiency point of view. Please note my version of efficiency is not "OMG we can do this in TWO TURNS!!". Mine's a "I still got the max BEXP in a few more turns than I would've liked".

First, let's discuss the joining times. Mordecai joins one chapter before Nephenee. In that chapter, you're supposed to MGS the place, rescuing everyone. If you want the max BEXP, it'll take about 25 turns or so to pull it off. This also assumes that Oscar can take out the boss. If you go the bull in a china shop method, then Mordecai can gain maybe a level. This puts him on par with Nephenee. Both level 11 in the same chapter, so joining time is a moot point.

One thing that Nephenee will always beat Mordy in is battle availability. Nephenee is always battle ready as long as she has a lance, while Mordecai needs to transform, and due to the way gauges work in this game, it'll take Mordy 5 turns to transform. In those 5 turns, Neph can destroy a bunch of enemies. Once Mordy shifts, it'll take him 20 turns to shift back. If he's in a battle all the time. And let's face it, your paladins will probably be there first. What's that you say? You can use Laguz Stones? I've never actually seen someone that wants to hurt Reyson's utility. Nephenee can see more enemy action that Mordecai.

Stat wise, Neph is a SKL and SPD monster, easily able to cap the two. Her RES isn't also half-bad for a physical unit, and because she's locked to Lances, she's going to get pretty darn good. Meanwhile, Mordecai has HP and STR. I also highly doubt that 20 SPD will double anything in the late-game, which is where Nephenee picks up. See, Mordecai is a "pick up and go" unit due to his great bases, but later on, he starts to falter, making it difficult for him to catch up. Nephenee may require some help, but come mid to late game, she's destroying everything that's in front of her.

Now then, let's talk about the usefulness. In Ch10, Mordecai's joining chapter, if we're doing bull in a china shop, there's 22 total enemies. Mordy can't double 10 of them. However, his 31 Atk means that he kills everything he doubles, and he can ORKO some of the squishier enemies, such as the Mage and the Archer. When it comes to his durability, he has 16 DEF. This means he'll take 1-8 damage, with the boss dealing 8 damage without doubling. In return, Mordecai can deal 14 damage. Mordecai is excellent in this chapter.

And then we get Nephenee. By now, you should have a sizable amount of BEXP, and with Neph and Kieran starting at levels 7 and 12 respectively, they may want a little bit of love. We also have some stat boosters lying around, called a Seraph Robe and the Speedwings. She's not getting the Speedwings, but she might want the Seraph Robe to buffer her durability so that way she can visit a house (thank you smash). So let's say she's level 11 now, with a Seraph Robe. If we look at her averages, she'll have 31 HP, 10 STR, 3 MAG, 12 SKL, 13 SPD, 7 LCK, 10 DEF, and 4 RES. She now outdoes Mordy's SKL and SPD, with their RES being the same. 10 STR Neph can pick up a Steel Lance without AS loss, and then she can get the Dracoshield to buffer her own DEF. Plus with that AS, the only things she doesn't double are the Bow Knight, the Wind Mage, and the two Thieves. And with that DEF, she can survive one hit from most things. Her Avo isn't spectacular (33 Avo), but that's still without supports and before her growths really start kicking in. Once again, Mordecai has to wait 5 turns before he can do anything useful, besides Smiting characters.

Which leads me to skills. Nephenee has an innate Wrath, which can help her destroy things, as her crit rate goes ludicrously high. However, the classic counter argument is that if they're already in that range, they're going to die the next hit after they crit-kill that enemy. Which is true. Mordecai has an innate Smite. SMITE?! He can make characters move two extra spaces?! Reyson needs to sing to someone, Mist can't get there, what shall we do? MORDY SMITE! However, when it comes to masteries, Neph wins. Mordecai can stop enemy movement, which means he has to be beside the enemy that he doesn't want moving...seems kinda counter-intuitive, don't it? Meanwhile, Nephenee has Luna, which halves an enemies DEF/RES and attacks. Yes, we have a limited number of Occult scrolls, but if you really don't want to give it to Neph, she can still make great use of Adept, which runs off of SKL%. Meanwhile Mordecai has...Resolve, I guess to help his doubling issues in late game. Provoke could also be good on him if you're considering the long term of things, so he can draw away enemy fire from your other units.

Lastly, let's discuss supports. Neph has a Wind affinity (+2.5 Hit, +2.5 Avo), and her support options aren't anything special, either. Brom for Water (hahaha balls no), Devdan (no) and Calill. Calill's probably the best one, as it mirrors the Avo bonus, and gives Neph an Atk and Hit bonus, helping her out. In Mordecai's corner, he has holy shit, WATER! DEF AND ATK BONUS DO WANT!!! He can give that to...Ilyana, Mist, Stefan, Ulki, and Ranulf. He won't be around long enough to see the last three. Ilyana isn't top notch material, but Light can help both DEF and Hit, something that Mordecai wants on both accounts. Mist completely mirrors his support, granting full bonuses. The support is also fast, only taking 9 chapters to reach A. The thing is though, is that Jill and Mist want a support a bit more because it's faster, while Mist wants Titania more as well. Mordecai doesn't win points for supports.

While I will admit that Mordecai has an excellent early game, he just does not compete as well for some of the resources that exist, and is completely beaten out by Nephenee's late game destructiveness.

[Zkirsche]

Good luck.

So, to start off, Nephenee is probably one of the cutest characters in FE9.

No complaints with your argument so far.

If you want the max BEXP, it'll take about 25 turns or so to pull it off.

Actually, it only takes 12 turns:

http://s14.zetaboards.com/Legend_of_the_Emblem/topic/452248/1/

In said 12 turn strategy, Mordecai both smites and rescues to help complete the chapter.

One thing that Nephenee will always beat Mordy in is battle availability. Nephenee is always battle ready as long as she has a lance, while Mordecai needs to transform, and due to the way gauges work in this game, it'll take Mordy 5 turns to transform. In those 5 turns, Neph can destroy a bunch of enemies. Once Mordy shifts, it'll take him 20 turns to shift back. If he's in a battle all the time. And let's face it, your paladins will probably be there first. What's that you say? You can use Laguz Stones? I've never actually seen someone that wants to hurt Reyson's utility. Nephenee can see more enemy action that Mordecai.

Not always, technically. The demi band does exist in this game. Plus, you can have Mordy go into battles untransformed anyway. Heck, since you don't want to fight those blasted vigilantes for the bexp, mordy can simply sponge them and their level 1 stats until transformation. In fact, he can do this on any map as we don't particularly care if Soren is not being attacked by an enemy as he'd likely to be killed anyway. Having enemies attack Mordy brings us an uber unit faster whilst maintaning team safety: win win, no?

Plus, after transforming, Mordy will actually be able to keep up with the paladins who you say are getting there first, instead of trailing behind by 2 or more spaces, contributing very little to the completion of the chapter.

Besides, whilst he may be in battle for less, he's easily twice as good as Nephenee is for that time. Just compare the two come chapter 11, with 4 levels of bexp given to Nephenee (seraph robe goes to Marcia or Soren, however, for having access to it longer and/or being better units in general), whilst Mordy gets nothing.

Base Mordy: 41 HP, 31 Atk, 11 AS, 16 Def, 7 Res, 9 Mov

Level 11/0 Nephenee w/iron lance: 24.2 HP, 16.6 Atk, 13.2 AS, 10 Def, 4 Res, 6 mov

Lol, Neph is getting buttraped hard. Losing in every single parameter sans speed, which doesn't matter at all as Mordy crushes her damage output, dealing 69% damage to those pesky cavaliers while Nephenee deals as little as around a quarter damage to those same knights. And that's while being 10HKO'ed too. Mordecai is indeed a very powerful unit, easily able to produce, what, 4-5 times as much output when transformed as Nephenee? Yeah, I'd say that's about right.

And this isn't going to change either, with Mordy having a much better growth spread.

Stat wise, Neph is a SKL and SPD monster, easily able to cap the two.

So? Rofl almost caps speed perfectly naturally. Top tier nao plz.

Her RES isn't also half-bad for a physical unit

Shame mages are a vast minority then.

because she's locked to Lances, she's going to get pretty darn good

Ummm, that isn't such a good thing, after all she now has no WTC and is at the whim of all axe users everywhere - the ones that hit the hardest on the map. Mordy never has to worry about WTD because of his sexy claws.

but later on, he starts to falter, making it difficult for him to catch up.

Who cares? He's amazing at the most important time in the game - the earlygame. Come lategame - Mordy's period of not-so-goodness - you have a fully supported Ragnell Ike running about, with lots of shiny green stats all around the team letting them pwn face, all with 9 mov. Yeah that's right, Mak and Astrid have finally dug themselves out of thier hole. Tanith and her schmexy reinforcements have joined the team. The endgame is a joke in terms of diffciulty, only there as stroy filler. Even Mist can ORKO lategame thanks to the magic swords.

10 STR Neph can pick up a Steel Lance without AS loss

uhh, no, a steel lance has 13 wt.

she can survive one hit from most things

Only one? It takes 10 to knock Mordy down. Are you sure she's better?

However, the classic counter argument is that if they're already in that range, they're going to die the next hit after they crit-kill that enemy. Which is true.

Ahh, so you agree then? Wrath sucks.

He can make characters move two extra spaces?! Reyson needs to sing to someone, Mist can't get there, what shall we do? MORDY SMITE!

Indeed, Smite pwns.

However, when it comes to masteries, Neph wins.

Correction, Neph wins if we botehr to give her an Occult even though that's a waste of a sol.

The thing is though, is that Jill and Mist want a support a bit more because it's faster, while Mist wants Titania more as well. Mordecai doesn't win points for supports.

You just admitted Mordy x MIst was fast (only taking 9 turns), and Mist does NOT want the +hit from Titania's support more than the +Atk from Mordy's.

You accepted Mordy x Ilyana so no complaints there.

he just does not compete as well for some of the resources that exist

He doesn't want, or need, any of those resources.

Nephenee's late game destructiveness.

Let's take a good luck at our team come late game:

Ike

Oscar

Boyd

Kieran

Titania

Astrid

Makalov

Tanith

Marcia

Jill

Mist

Nephenee

Just count the amount of 9 mov units and you should see why Nephenee isn't doing as much as you'd like to say she does.

[Soren37]

Actually, it only takes 12 turns:

http://s14.zetaboards.com/Legend_of_the_Emblem/topic/452248/1/

In said 12 turn strategy, Mordecai both smites and rescues to help complete the chapter.

I did not know that. Fair enough.

Not always, technically. The demi band does exist in this game. Plus, you can have Mordy go into battles untransformed anyway. Heck, since you don't want to fight those blasted vigilantes for the bexp, mordy can simply sponge them and their level 1 stats until transformation. In fact, he can do this on any map as we don't particularly care if Soren is not being attacked by an enemy as he'd likely to be killed anyway. Having enemies attack Mordy brings us an uber unit faster whilst maintaning team safety: win win, no?

Yes the Demi Band exists, but Muarim wants it more. Muarim beats Mordecai in offense as he can actually double. Muarim replaces Mordecai when you get him. This is in Chapter 16.

And you can have Mordecai fight untransformed, but it doesn't work out so well. He can't counterattack, and the only example you list where he's safe is the vigilantes. What about bosses or generic enemies? Most enemies will be able to damage him. Not double, mind you, but they can damage him. Yes he can meatshield for us effectively, and he can transform more easily, but he's still taking damage with no counter-attack. Titania can do that more effectively.

Also, because we're probably saving up all of our Laguz Stones for Reyson, Mordecai isn't getting those, which means that he's most likely to transform during the middle of the map, or not at all if you're low-turning. Yes you can play efficiently within max BEXP turns, but PoR is so easy that you can roflstomp most chapters in about half of the turns listed. Kaoz took 5 turns to complete Chapter 11. If we have Mordecai in a battle every enemy phase, then he'll transform on turn four. This is assuming he's in one battle per enemy phase. He can transform earlier or later depending on what you do, but the point still stands. You can complete chapters faster than it takes for Mordecai to transform.

Plus, after transforming, Mordy will actually be able to keep up with the paladins who you say are getting there first, instead of trailing behind by 2 or more spaces, contributing very little to the completion of the chapter.

After he transforms. The paladins have already had a turn to move 9 spaces. This means that after turn one, they're two spaces away (assuming straight line movement), and we'll say that Mordecai used an item to transform. After the second turn (once again straight line movement), they're 16 and 18 spaces, still two away. Third turn, 25 and 27. Mordecai can never catch up once the paladins roll out. You can give him the Demi Band, but he's being replaced by Muarim.

Besides, whilst he may be in battle for less, he's easily twice as good as Nephenee is for that time. Just compare the two come chapter 11, with 4 levels of bexp given to Nephenee (seraph robe goes to Marcia or Soren, however, for having access to it longer and/or being better units in general), whilst Mordy gets nothing.

Base Mordy: 41 HP, 31 Atk, 11 AS, 16 Def, 7 Res, 9 Mov

Level 11/0 Nephenee w/iron lance: 24.2 HP, 16.6 Atk, 13.2 AS, 10 Def, 4 Res, 6 mov

Lol, Neph is getting buttraped hard. Losing in every single parameter sans speed, which doesn't matter at all as Mordy crushes her damage output, dealing 69% damage to those pesky cavaliers while Nephenee deals as little as around a quarter damage to those same knights. And that's while being 10HKO'ed too. Mordecai is indeed a very powerful unit, easily able to produce, what, 4-5 times as much output when transformed as Nephenee? Yeah, I'd say that's about right.

At the start, yes, Mordecai is clearly the better option. But Nephenee catches up. Yes Mordecai's a durable little bugger, but Nephenee's built for offense, and Mordecai's 8 SPD base with a 50% growth will catch up to him. And you know what's funnier? Nephenee's STR can reach Mordecai's potential. With both of them at max level (I know it's unlikely), Neph will have ~23 STR, while Mordecai has 26. And then we add the weapon Mt. Neph will then outdo Mordecai because of forges and better weapon Mights than Mordecai's 7 Mt claws. Neph can also double, mirror a +Avo support with Callil, and take a magical hit.

And this isn't going to change either, with Mordy having a much better growth spread.

165|65|0|55|50|40|40|20 are Mordecai's growth spreads.

55|40|20|55|55|25|35|25 are Nephenee's growth spreads.

Yes Mordecai wins the growth spread, but when will he use these? Because he's a laguz, he takes an EXP penalty in battle, meaning it takes longer to level him up, while Neph can keep fighting and keep getting EXP. Also, transformation. Mordecai can fight untransformed, get 1 EXP per battle, and be chipped away at until he can transform and take the penalty.

Also, Nephenee has access to the Knight Ward, meaning that she can bump that SPD growth up to a lovely 85%, while becoming a bit more durable as well. Once Astrid's done with it, we can shift it off and Nephenee does well.

So? Rofl almost caps speed perfectly naturally. Top tier nao plz.

Almost is not the same as does. Neph's guaranteed a SPD cap. Mordecai isn't guaranteed any stat caps.

Shame mages are a vast minority then.

Can Mordecai survive a shot of fire? Yes due to his HP, but he's still taken a chunk of damage. Even still though, Marcia's the best bet for mages.

Ummm, that isn't such a good thing, after all she now has no WTC and is at the whim of all axe users everywhere - the ones that hit the hardest on the map. Mordy never has to worry about WTD because of his sexy claws.

Does Mordecai ever get WTA? Can Mordecai be effective against Laguz? Armours? Paladins? Attack at range? Sure, Neph doesn't have much WTC, but she does have weapon versatility allowing to adapt to the battlefield much better than un-sexy claws. Mage going to hit you on the EP? Have Neph with a javelin. Have some armours blocking the way? Neph can handle it with a heavy spear. Paladins charging towards you? Neph can solo them with a Horseslayer. Can Mordecai ever adapt? No. And his weapon never gets stronger either because Strike levels didn't exist yet. He's stuck at 7 Mt forever. Yes his 65% STR growth can help him out, but Nephenee can destroy the battlefield with her versatility.

And come Endgame, she doesn't care about axes. Their Hit and Avo are so bad she can dodge and double. And, assuming we're not complete idiots, we're not sending Nephenee to solo a bunch of axe users. We're going to send Boyd, Ike, Mak, and pretty much all the Paladins because axes are decent on them.

Who cares? He's amazing at the most important time in the game - the earlygame. Come lategame - Mordy's period of not-so-goodness - you have a fully supported Ragnell Ike running about, with lots of shiny green stats all around the team letting them pwn face, all with 9 mov. Yeah that's right, Mak and Astrid have finally dug themselves out of thier hole. Tanith and her schmexy reinforcements have joined the team. The endgame is a joke in terms of diffciulty, only there as stroy filler. Even Mist can ORKO lategame thanks to the magic swords.

Everyone can become good come endgame, pretty much. There are some exceptions (Lucia and Bastian), but most people can be Endgame worthy.

uhh, no, a steel lance has 13 wt.

My bad. Looked at the Mt by accident. However, if we still don't want her losing attack speed, make her a forge. Or give her a forged iron lance with max Mt and have her solo the bottom in her starting chapter. There's three swordsman down there, meaning she has WTA and a powerful weapon in her hands.

Only one? It takes 10 to knock Mordy down. Are you sure she's better?

As I've said, Mordecai is a durable bugger. Nephenee catches up though in the mid to late game.

Indeed, Smite pwns.

Who doesn't love a good smite? heretics

Correction, Neph wins if we botehr to give her an Occult even though that's a waste of a sol.

We can if we want. Yes your team is vastly horse units, but you can give one to Neph if you think Astrid would do better with Adept or what not.

You just admitted Mordy x MIst was fast (only taking 9 turns), and Mist does NOT want the +hit from Titania's support more than the +Atk from Mordy's.

You accepted Mordy x Ilyana so no complaints there.

Titania wants the +Hit from her support. Titan's SKL is good, but it's not that good, especially with Axes.

And are we really going to have Mist attacking things when Mordy's around? Mist promotes around Mid-game, meaning that Mordy's not there because Muarim exists, and people's stats are really beginning to pick up. And Jill x Mist is the best yuri pairing around a good combination as Jill likes the +DEF, as well as Mist. Jill and Mist also like the +Avo from Jill's support.

Not to mention that Mist's MAG plus Titan and Jill supports with a Sonic Sword means that she can absolutely rape face. And then we get the Runesword. Mordecai offers a mirrored water support, yes, but is it really going to be played when he begins to falter in the mid game, when Mist promotes?

Let's take a good luck at our team come late game:

Ike

Oscar

Boyd

Kieran

Titania

Astrid

Makalov

Tanith

Marcia

Jill

Mist

Nephenee

Just count the amount of 9 mov units and you should see why Nephenee isn't doing as much as you'd like to say she does.

Yes we have a lot of 9 MOV units who care more about bum-rushing the boss and moving up than having to fight each enemy. Nephenee's meant to be a cleaner. After the 9 MOV units barrel through, Neph takes out whatever was missed or is moving up towards the back. Why? Because her Avo is good enough to avoid taking all those hits and her STR has finally caught up. Hell, she might even get a Drop if no one else needs it, meaning that she can cap STR as well.

Yes, Mordecai is an excellent unit in the early game, but his transformation and EXP gains can slow him down. We also have Titania, Shinon and Gatrie helping us out as well, all of whom are durable as all hell and very strong. Mordecai's helpful in his first few chapters, and then fades away as enemies begin to actually have STR and SPD stats. And that's when Nephenee's spotlight begins to shine, as she's been given some BEXP to help her out, and quite possibly a forge, and can start to take a hit. Neph's useful for 2/3 of the game, Mordecai for 1/3.

P.S. You forgot Reyson in the Endgame team. Just saying.

[Zkirsche]

Yes the Demi Band exists, but Muarim wants it more. Muarim beats Mordecai in offense as he can actually double. Muarim replaces Mordecai when you get him. This is in Chapter 16.

The chance we're using Muarim isn't 100%, and in the ~30+% where we don't, Mordy can use it.

He can't counterattack, and the only example you list where he's safe is the vigilantes. What about bosses or generic enemies? Most enemies will be able to damage him. Not double, mind you, but they can damage him. Yes he can meatshield for us effectively, and he can transform more easily, but he's still taking damage with no counter-attack.

Mordy is STILL more durable than Neph is, even untransformed. That HP difference is simply monstrous. It's much safer than simply letting Neph sponge them. And by having a unit that can't counterattack, enemies are guaranteed to attack them, ensuring teh safety of our other units like Soren and meaning that there's nothing to stop Titania and the pallies from moving forward some more, especially useful in arrive maps, which, oh look, chapter 11 is. So untransformed, MOrdy is still a valued contributer to the team.

Titania can do that more effectively.

Titania can do everything more effectively than anyone, including kill better than Nephenee.

because we're probably saving up all of our Laguz Stones

Good thing I didn't talk about them then.

After he transforms. The paladins have already had a turn to move 9 spaces. This means that after turn one, they're two spaces away (assuming straight line movement), and we'll say that Mordecai used an item to transform. After the second turn (once again straight line movement), they're 16 and 18 spaces, still two away. Third turn, 25 and 27. Mordecai can never catch up once the paladins roll out. You can give him the Demi Band, but he's being replaced by Muarim.

In comparison we have Neph, who is stuck permanently with 6-7 mov and so after 3 turns is 6 spaces away from the pallies.

At the start, yes, Mordecai is clearly the better option. But Nephenee catches up. Yes Mordecai's a durable little bugger, but Nephenee's built for offense, and Mordecai's 8 SPD base with a 50% growth will catch up to him. And you know what's funnier? Nephenee's STR can reach Mordecai's potential. With both of them at max level (I know it's unlikely), Neph will have ~23 STR, while Mordecai has 26. And then we add the weapon Mt. Neph will then outdo Mordecai because of forges and better weapon Mights than Mordecai's 7 Mt claws. Neph can also double, mirror a +Avo support with Callil, and take a magical hit.

Thing is, Neph catches up way to late. A level 5 Mordecai for example has an 81.25% chance of having 13 AS or more whilst transformed, which will let him double 16/39 enemies. However, Mordy is a perfect contender for a speedwing. With it, he doubles 24 enemies, a clear majority of the map (he has a 50% chance of having even more AS too, sothis figure could easily be more), and with that massive atk of his, he's even ORKO'ing knights, so this speedwing is a very worthy investment indeed. And this is the midgame we're talking about, where Mordy is still ORKO'ing a vast majority of the map. Nephenee, however, needs to take valuable forges from the rest of the team to even begin ORKO'ing reliably, however.

Also, Nephenee has access to the Knight Ward, meaning that she can bump that SPD growth up to a lovely 85%, while becoming a bit more durable as well. Once Astrid's done with it, we can shift it off and Nephenee does well.

Why would Astrid ever finish? Besides, we also have Makalov, Oscar, Kieran, Titania, Gatrie, Brom and Devdan all fighting for that Knight Ward, so it is far from guaranteed to be on her during a chapter.

Because he's a laguz, he takes an EXP penalty in battle

Meh, whatever, it doesn't change much.

Almost is not the same as does. Neph's guaranteed a SPD cap. Mordecai isn't guaranteed any stat caps.

You missed the point, and that is noone cares. Noone cares that he can't reach his ridiculous 34 spd cap or 33 skl cap. Unless you have a fetish for teh colour green, whether a statis capped or not makes no difference to that units performance: the actual number the stat is given is what affect it.

Can Mordecai survive a shot of fire? Yes due to his HP

Kk cool.

Does Mordecai ever get WTA?

He doesn't need WTA to deal heavy amounts of damage in one blow, unlike Nephenee.

Armours?

He ORKO's these, regardless.

Can Mordecai be effective against Laguz?

Can Nephenee survive long against Laguz? Paladins? Generals?

Will she have the movement to face enemy phase action at all?

Will the player be an idiot and not target 1-2 range users on the player phase?

If you think the answer to these questions is "yes", you're sorely mistaken.

And, assuming we're not complete idiots, we're not sending Nephenee to solo a bunch of axe users.

We're fielding Neph, I'm afraid the ship has sailed on that one, my friend ;)

Everyone can become good come endgame, pretty much. There are some exceptions (Lucia and Bastian), but most people can be Endgame worthy.

Exactly, and that's why we don't care if you're only good at the endgame (like Neph), because the Midgame and earlygame is what matters most, and that's where Mordy roflstomps Neph.

However, if we still don't want her losing attack speed, make her a forge.

Great, she's here for 1 chapter and already she has a forge. That's 1 opportunity and already we're favouring her over units that will see more action/do better with it (Oscar/Kieran/Boyd etcetera).

There's three swordsman down there, meaning she has WTA and a powerful weapon in her hands.

The swordsmen down there are all vigilantes, and we don't want to kill those because we want bexp. Even if you did want to kill them, however, the fact that Neph needs said forge to do so when they're all level 3 is astonishing, so I'm going to assume you did your math wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if she couldn't ORKO otherwise. :/

As I've said, Mordecai is a durable bugger. Nephenee catches up though in the mid to late game.

Base Mordy is better durably than a level 20/6 Neph (41 HP + 16 Def vs 36 HP + 17 Def. Aka 5 HP vs 1 Def. Excluding supports, as well). So no, I'm afraid not Mid game. Perhaps not even lategame with proper training.

We can if we want.

Except we don't as we don't want to worry about healing our units after many battles.

Titania wants the +Hit from her support. Titan's SKL is good, but it's not that good, especially with Axes.

Except Titania gets +hit from all of her supports because it's in her affinity. Mist, however, has no hit issues, so the + hit is much worse for her than the +mt from Mordy.

And are we really going to have Mist attacking things when Mordy's around? Mist promotes around Mid-game, meaning that Mordy's not there because Muarim exists, and people's stats are really beginning to pick up. And Jill x Mist is the best yuri pairing around a good combination as Jill likes the +DEF, as well as Mist. Jill and Mist also like the +Avo from Jill's support.

Why would we drop Mordy, a unit that ORKO's the majority of the map with 9 mov, just because Muarim shows up? That's like saying "let's drop Oscar because we have Titania." - it doesn't make any sense.

Not to mention that Mist's MAG plus Titan and Jill supports with a Sonic Sword means that she can absolutely rape face.

It would rape more face with the +atk from Mordy, whereas the +hit from Titania doesn't really do anything thanks to MIst's high luck stat.

Yes we have a lot of 9 MOV units who care more about bum-rushing the boss and moving up than having to fight each enemy. Nephenee's meant to be a cleaner.

Except they have canto so they can simply kill, then rush up. And if Nephenee is acting as a cleaner, then how is she helping towards the completion of the chapter?

We also have Titania, Shinon and Gatrie helping us out as well

Why the hell are we using Shinon and Gatrie in FE9, they both suck in this game. (especially Shinon).

Mordecai's helpful in his first few chapters, and then fades away as enemies begin to actually have STR and SPD stats.

After, like, 8 chapters of raping Nephenee violently and needing 0 bexp. With Mordy, I can have a level 20 Mia by chapter 16, with Nephenee, she's level 16 or something (levels may be different, think about the point of it).

and quite possibly a forge

Definitely a forge if you want her to be ORKO'ing anything.

Neph's useful for 2/3 of the game, Mordecai for 1/3.

Arbitrary statistic is arbitrary. Mordecai is 10* more useful than Nephenee is for that third they "share" (put in quotation marks because she's still not very good until chapter 17 or so), and Nepheneee is barely useful for the second anyway, so that's moot also.

P.S. You forgot Reyson in the Endgame team. Just saying.

I actually forgot Muarim too, so technically we could've had Mordy as the demi band was free :P

[Soren37]

The chance we're using Muarim isn't 100%, and in the ~30+% where we don't, Mordy can use it.

Mordy's not a 100% chance character either. I didn't even touch Laguz besides Reyson and Tibarn in my first playthrough. The only 100% chance character in this game is Ike.

Mordy is STILL more durable than Neph is, even untransformed. That HP difference is simply monstrous. It's much safer than simply letting Neph sponge them. And by having a unit that can't counterattack, enemies are guaranteed to attack them, ensuring teh safety of our other units like Soren and meaning that there's nothing to stop Titania and the pallies from moving forward some more, especially useful in arrive maps, which, oh look, chapter 11 is. So untransformed, MOrdy is still a valued contributer to the team.

How long does that HP buffer stand up when he doesn't gain his DEF and SPD bonuses? Remember, his transformation gauge takes 5 turns to build up, because Reyson gets all of the shiny stones. We can either a) be done with the chapter by now or b) have Mordy fight untransformed, which doesn't help worth a damn as he only get 1 EXP and an extra +2 per battle.

Let's look at chapter 11, the next chapter he gets. He's probably base level, because we MGS'd the previous chapter, and he doesn't gain anything for Chapter 9. Kieran and Neph want the BEXP more. I'll be nice and give him one. He now has 42 HP|13 DEF|4 RES| 26 Avo| 10 Cev. Yes, those defensive stats are good, he's looking at Hit Rates of 35-86 displayed for physical attacks, taking 0-9 damage. Yes, he's a durability monster. You can meatshield with him and get next to no use out of him, except an EXP drain. He's still durable on the magic side of things, except that the Fire mage can deal 15 damage at an 85 displayed, which means he's taken a chunk of damage, and because other enemies can still damage him, he can go down quickly after that. Remember, the RNG is a fickle thing, and it can have him hit by 35% chances.

Titania can do everything more effectively than anyone, including kill better than Nephenee.

Not in Lategame. Titan slows down, while Neph is ready to crack some skulls. With a Lance.

Good thing I didn't talk about them then.

Good thing I did. Mordy's untransformed for pretty much everything.

In comparison we have Neph, who is stuck permanently with 6-7 mov and so after 3 turns is 6 spaces away from the pallies.

1) Boots. Learn 'em.

2) She's six spaces away, which means that if enemies are coming in from the sides or if reinforcements are coming up from the bottom, she can deal with them instead of having a pally run back all those spaces and get even more behind.

Neph's not meant for keeping up with the pallies. The only other people who get this are Boyd and possibly Mia. These three are meant to hang back and stop enemies from coming in the back door. Yes, they're not as durable as Mordy, which is all this debate seems to be. Mordy can take a hit! Congrats. Neph can actually help the completion of rout and boss kill chapters by preventing your characters from having to retreat to deal with more enemies. Neph can handle them.

Thing is, Neph catches up way to late. A level 5 Mordecai for example has an 81.25% chance of having 13 AS or more whilst transformed, which will let him double 16/39 enemies. However, Mordy is a perfect contender for a speedwing. With it, he doubles 24 enemies, a clear majority of the map (he has a 50% chance of having even more AS too, sothis figure could easily be more), and with that massive atk of his, he's even ORKO'ing knights, so this speedwing is a very worthy investment indeed. And this is the midgame we're talking about, where Mordy is still ORKO'ing a vast majority of the map. Nephenee, however, needs to take valuable forges from the rest of the team to even begin ORKO'ing reliably, however.

Fair enough. His AS can be good if he transforms. Which is unlikely.

Do you not realize how much gold we get in this game? Forges are a minor thing, and the only people who desperately clamor for one are Mist, Mia, and Neph. Then again, Mist has the Sonic Sword, so she might not want one. Mia has a +Mt support, and her average STR isn't too bad, so she's fine on the receiving end, too. Neph is the only character that needs a forge, and even then, that's only early-game. Come Mid and Late game, she's doing fine with Steel lances and javelins.

Why would Astrid ever finish? Besides, we also have Makalov, Oscar, Kieran, Titania, Gatrie, Brom and Devdan all fighting for that Knight Ward, so it is far from guaranteed to be on her during a chapter.

Because Paragon is a dirty pimp. Astrid's gaining levels like a dirty little mofo, and can cap SPD by level 18 with the KW. After that, she can cap it at level 20/11. Neph can have some time with her shiny toy.

And the pallies don't need it, except maybe Kieran, and Kieran's a better investment in the Speedwing because he can always fight. And at the bold, do I have to smack you with an idiot stick? Gatrie and Brom are too slow and Devdan is most certainly not Danved is certainly being used when Neph can roflstomp in the stats that matter. And 13 SPD? Really? You're going to invest the time in a character who has 16 levels of growth with a 35% chance to proc speed? 65% chance with KW? When you already have a decent character?

Meh, whatever, it doesn't change much.

It means he can't grow as fast as others.

You missed the point, and that is noone cares. Noone cares that he can't reach his ridiculous 34 spd cap or 33 skl cap. Unless you have a fetish for teh colour green, whether a statis capped or not makes no difference to that units performance: the actual number the stat is given is what affect it.

Green is actually my favourite colour, not that is anything to do with this. It's just that come mid-game, Mordy's grinding to a halt because of his SKL and SPD growths. His skill is bad, and his speed is bad. Yes, he'll still deal a lot of damage, but his Hit rates will be shaky, and he can't double, which means he's less likely to OHKO or ORKO. He can't even OHKO soldiers in Chapter 19. Neph can at level 20/5 with a Steel Lance. And double. And face a hit rate of 47 displayed.

He doesn't need WTA to deal heavy amounts of damage in one blow, unlike Nephenee.

It's not so much the fact of WTA, it's does he get those options? He's hurt in combat by lack of 2 range (javelins) and effective against enemies that can terrorize your other units. See a Longsword myrmidon? Nephenee. See a Laguz Slayer Myrmidon? Nephenee. See a Laguz Lance Soldier? Nephenee. My point is, Nephenee has the ability to switch between the weapons that she wants to use to either maximize her enemy phase action or to be more effective on the battlefield.

He ORKO's these, regardless.

In what world does 9*2 damage ORKO an Armour in midgame?

Can Nephenee survive long against Laguz? Paladins? Generals?

Concrete, no. Avo, yes. With 38|20|11 at 20/10, and Mordy having 40|18|8 at 15...wait what? Neph's doing better in DEF and RES than Mordy? And their HPs are the same? And what about Avo? 61 compared to 43? Neph's doing well when they're at the same level.

Of course, you'll come up with early game. Screw early game. You have Titania. Titania can handle the Armours, Ike can handle the pallies with some help (Neph, perhaps?), and Laguz are a joke after a while when the Laguz Lance begins to exist. Besides, the ravens you first fight aren't even that terrifying. Just make sure they don't get Rhys or Mist. You also have Jill and Marcia, and Titan, and Soren, and Ike/Zihark with a Laguz Slayer.

And Mid-game? Let's use a level 18 Neph and a level 9 Mordecai. We'll assume Mordecai has a C rank Ilyana, because they're not always going to be standing beside each other.

Mordecai Level 9 'C' Ilyana

52 HP, 35 Atk, 123 Hit, 14 AS, 40 Avo, 13 Cev, 17 DEF, 5 RES

Nephenee Level 18 with Steel Lance

28 HP, 22 Atk, 102 Hit, 16 AS, 40 Avo, 9 Cev, 12 DEF, 5 RES

with Javelin

18 Atk, 92 Hit, 17 AS, 42 Avo

Mordecai's still winning in the concrete durability, but once again, transformation and lack of weapon versatility hurt his usefulness if he does anything more than meatshield. And Neph can double more enemies and have a bit of a better chance of avoiding. And since Mordecai has 9 Mov compared to Illin's 6, what are the chances that they'll be in support range?

Will she have the movement to face enemy phase action at all?

Doesn't need it. She's part of the clean up crew.

Will the player be an idiot and not target 1-2 range users on the player phase?

If it's an archer or wind mage targeting Marcia or Jill, gladly. If it's not, meh. Just equip a two range weapon and kill 'em from there. Unless there's something wrong with that? Or are we going for a complete pacifist run for FE9? No killing? Of course I'm going to kill them.

If you think the answer to these questions is "yes", you're sorely mistaken.

I never agreed with any of it. I'm just providing logic.

We're fielding Neph, I'm afraid the ship has sailed on that one, my friend ;)

We're bringing Mordy to Endgame. I see another departing now.

Exactly, and that's why we don't care if you're only good at the endgame (like Neph), because the Midgame and earlygame is what matters most, and that's where Mordy roflstomps Neph.

Neph and Mordy almost seem to trade off when it comes to usefulness. Mordy roflstomps in earlygame and falter in midgame, where Neph begins to pick up. They have a period where they're both useful, until your pallies begin to shine and become able to finish the chapters faster than Mordy can shift.

Great, she's here for 1 chapter and already she has a forge. That's 1 opportunity and already we're favouring her over units that will see more action/do better with it (Oscar/Kieran/Boyd etcetera).

Oscar should already some growths kicking in, along with Boyd, and Kieran can do fine with a discarded forge or some BEXP. Then again, its not like we're going to fail the chapter because we forged a lance for Neph. She just needs that little extra boost to get up there. Like Mordy's Speedwing.

The swordsmen down there are all vigilantes, and we don't want to kill those because we want bexp. Even if you did want to kill them, however, the fact that Neph needs said forge to do so when they're all level 3 is astonishing, so I'm going to assume you did your math wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if she couldn't ORKO otherwise. :/

After checking the FE9 HM Enemy data, there are no level 3 vigilantes. There are two weak Fighters, which I can only assume are elsewhere, while the myrmidons I'm talking about are found on the south side of the map, well away from where Zihark starts. They're by the Dracoshield house.

Base Mordy is better durably than a level 20/6 Neph (41 HP + 16 Def vs 36 HP + 17 Def. Aka 5 HP vs 1 Def. Excluding supports, as well). So no, I'm afraid not Mid game. Perhaps not even lategame with proper training.

I see you forgot to mention Mordy's stunning base hit of 114 and 11 AS in Midgame. He'll hit, do damage, done. From 1 range. Against everything. If transformed. With no specialties.

I'm not advocating Nephenee can keep up with the pallies, be as durable as Taureneo, or be as offensive as Tibarn. I'm saying that Nephenee is still a great unit, if you bother to bring her up to speed and give her a little bit of love. Nephenee's meant to be part of the clean up crew. Pallies charge through and don't care about the enemies on the side or reinforcements coming from behind. Neph can handle those.

Except we don't as we don't want to worry about healing our units after many battles.

Odd, this sounds like smash. We want every unit to be as durable as possible, to use as little healing as possible, and we don't give a care to their offense.

Except Titania gets +hit from all of her supports because it's in her affinity. Mist, however, has no hit issues, so the + hit is much worse for her than the +mt from Mordy.

Mordy's not seeing late-mid or late game. Mist and Titania is better in the long run. Mordy give's the +Mt, but so does Jill, and we don't have to wait for Mordy to get to his glorious 9 MOV.

Why would we drop Mordy, a unit that ORKO's the majority of the map with 9 mov, just because Muarim shows up? That's like saying "let's drop Oscar because we have Titania." - it doesn't make any sense.

We can drop Oscar for Titania. We drop Edward for Mia in FE10, Mia for Zihark in FE9, Vika for Nealuchi in FE10, and Mist, Rhys, and Laura are all replaced by Elincia. We replace units because another unit either has better stats or provides better utility. Base Muarim beats Base Mordecai in every stat, and can actually hit and double, instead of Hit and stay.

It would rape more face with the +atk from Mordy, whereas the +hit from Titania doesn't really do anything thanks to MIst's high luck stat.

And 7 MOV is equal to 9 MOV (for exceptionally large values of 7). It doesn't seem to hit you that Mordecai needs to transform to bear any semblance of use besides meatshielding outside of earlygame.

Except they have canto so they can simply kill, then rush up. And if Nephenee is acting as a cleaner, then how is she helping towards the completion of the chapter?

Reinforcements, larger maps having enemies off to the side, fliers, need I go on?

Why the hell are we using Shinon and Gatrie in FE9, they both suck in this game. (especially Shinon).

You need them in early game. Late game, they can die. Also, I seem to recall that you said Gatrie deserves the KW. Why the sudden change of heart?

After, like, 8 chapters of raping Nephenee violently and needing 0 bexp. With Mordy, I can have a level 20 Mia by chapter 16, with Nephenee, she's level 16 or something (levels may be different, think about the point of it).

Mordecai only rapes when he's transformed. Other than that, he's a wall. Nothing more, nothing less. And PEMN. Yay, Mia was a higher level when you had Mordecai drawing attacks in. Oh no! She's four levels lower when another character was used?! Neph sucks! Auto-bottom tier! And while we're on the topic, Micaiah sucks more if you don't use Sothe! Micaiah to bottom tier!

If I got the gist right. I sort of had trouble understanding what you were saying.

Definitely a forge if you want her to be ORKO'ing anything.

Kay. Gold is easy to come by and Mia already has one. Kieran might want one, but he can just team up with Oscar or Marcia.

Arbitrary statistic is arbitrary. Mordecai is 10* more useful than Nephenee is for that third they "share" (put in quotation marks because she's still not very good until chapter 17 or so), and Nepheneee is barely useful for the second anyway, so that's moot also.

Neph's barely useful in durability or offense? You need to clarify. By the end, Mordecai can't hit or double thanks to lulzy SKL and SPD stats. Neph can.

I actually forgot Muarim too, so technically we could've had Mordy as the demi band was free :P

No we couldn't. If we're using your same team, we have the following.

Ike

Titania

Reyson

Oscar

Makalov

Astrid

Kieran

Jill

Marcia

Mist

Boyd

Nephenee

Tanith was removed to make room. Either way, after the paladins, fliers and Reyson, you only have one spot left. You have Boyd, Nephenee, or Mordecai. I'm putting money that most people will go for Boyd or Neph.

And let's rephrase this so you understand. Mordecai can meatshield. Yay. No EXP, no combat, no gain. Nephenee will need a forge when you first get her so she can fire up and keep going. And some BEXP. Come midgame, Mordecai's slowing down because he hasn't had the opportunity to fight because Titan and the other pallies can blitzkrieg the chapters. Neph's catching up, but she's meant to hang back and clean up the paladins mess. If the didn't ORKO something, Neph's job. If enemies are coming up the back and the sides? Neph can handle them. Mordecai can just stand there, at one range, no versatility, and meatwall. Neph can run around with a Silver Lance, a Spear, and Flame Lance, and a Heavy Spear to have fun with her toys.

Neph > Mordy because Mordy has to transform to bear combat use outside of being a meatshield.

[Zkirsche]

Edit: made some issue with teh quote things. Fixed it.

Mordy's not a 100% chance character either. I didn't even touch Laguz besides Reyson and Tibarn in my first playthrough. The only 100% chance character in this game is Ike.

Well, considering we're debating him, it's assumed that we're using him.

How long does that HP buffer stand up when he doesn't gain his DEF and SPD bonuses? Remember, his transformation gauge takes 5 turns to build up, because Reyson gets all of the shiny stones. We can either a) be done with the chapter by now or b) have Mordy fight untransformed, which doesn't help worth a damn as he only get 1 EXP and an extra +2 per battle.

That +2 per battle could mean an extra godly unit a turn earlier - well worth it, especially since in rushing chapters we walk past most enemies anyway, leaving them to boost Mordy's gauge.

On the subject of rushing chapters, most speed rushing of chapters is done through the use of Mordy's Smite. I don't see Nephenee heavily involved in short turning chapters. So if that's your definition of efficiency (low turning chapters, and for a lot of people, it is), Mordy is much, much more useful than Neph, even when untransformed.

Yes, he's a durability monster. You can meatshield with him and get next to no use out of him, except an EXP drain. He's still durable on the magic side of things, except that the Fire mage can deal 15 damage at an 85 displayed, which means he's taken a chunk of damage, and because other enemies can still damage him, he can go down quickly after that. Remember, the RNG is a fickle thing, and it can have him hit by 35% chances.

Except we don't care about exp as there's plenty of bexp to go around and units level up fine anyway.

As for that fire mage, he still has 25 HP after that, so unless he's being attacked by like, 8 units at once (even Neph would die from that btw), even a fire mage isn't a worry.

Not in Lategame. Titan slows down, while Neph is ready to crack some skulls. With a Lance.

Titania slows down? Lol.

Level 20/17 Titania w/silver axe forge, 'A' Boyd, 'B' Mist: 42 atk, 22 AS

This Titania ORKO's everything on the map, barring teh SM's she can't double because she never got the KW for some stupid reason. And then of course she has 9 mov. +3 def from supports to boost her durability, etc. Titania never slows down. Titania can crush this entire game with her hands tied behind her back.

Good thing I did. Mordy's untransformed for pretty much everything

You missed the point, which was that I never endorsed the use of laguz stones, so you're arguing against a non-existant point.

1) Boots. Learn 'em.

You argue for Reyson then completely ignore what is best used on him? Even an 8 mov unit will fall behind 9 mov units eventually, especially after being refreshed. Heck, laguz stones aren't infinite either, so once we run out, and we want Reyson to keep up untransformed, the boots come in handy.

2) She's six spaces away, which means that if enemies are coming in from the sides or if reinforcements are coming up from the bottom, she can deal with them instead of having a pally run back all those spaces and get even more behind.

Except they don't care because they ORKO anything anyway and outrun everyone, so even if the whole continent of Tellius arrived as reinforcements from teh start point, they wouldn't care - they'd just keep going.

Neph's not meant for keeping up with the pallies. The only other people who get this are Boyd and possibly Mia. These three are meant to hang back and stop enemies from coming in the back door. Yes, they're not as durable as Mordy, which is all this debate seems to be. Mordy can take a hit! Congrats. Neph can actually help the completion of rout and boss kill chapters by preventing your characters from having to retreat to deal with more enemies. Neph can handle them

Boss kills chapters are irrelevant because of the point above - they can simply keep charging at the boss, ignoring the reinforcements from behind. And in a rout, there are much better beorc for the job - Boyd, Tanith's reinforcement etc. Heck, we have like 7 paladins anyway, I'm sure one wouldn't mind going back to kill them, and that probably wouldn't slow you down at all. Oscar + Kieran could probably duo chapters fairly quickly.

And really, how many chapters have units coming from behind that might take a while? Probably not many. How many chapters does Smite help clear faster? About half of them, probably, maybe more.

Do you not realize how much gold we get in this game? Forges are a minor thing, and the only people who desperately clamor for one are Mist, Mia, and Neph. Then again, Mist has the Sonic Sword, so she might not want one. Mia has a +Mt support, and her average STR isn't too bad, so she's fine on the receiving end, too. Neph is the only character that needs a forge, and even then, that's only early-game. Come Mid and Late game, she's doing fine with Steel lances and javelins.

Not necessarily gold, but forging opportunities. Steel hasn't existed for very long, and a capped level 20 Ike, Oscar, Astrid before promoting and being uber and Makalov are all lacking in the atk department and want this forge. This is also forgetting Marcia, who, if levelled up, can use it in chapter 12 to finish ravens off quickly. Heck, we might want to give them to everyone to help them kill armour knights better. As the hammer won't last forever.

Besides, if Neph is the only character than needs a forge, doesn't that indicate her ability compared to the rest of the team?

Because Paragon is a dirty pimp. Astrid's gaining levels like a dirty little mofo, and can cap SPD by level 18 with the KW. After that, she can cap it at level 20/11. Neph can have some time with her shiny toy.

And the pallies don't need it, except maybe Kieran, and Kieran's a better investment in the Speedwing because he can always fight.

She has to get to level 18 first, which does take a few chapters, even with paragon. Especially since you don't think she needs a forge so isn't ORKO'ing anyone anymore.

No-one "needs" any resource, technically. The could get crazy good RNG rolls or the game could glitch or something. However, the pallies could use it to help them double myrms/Sm's (or do it faster in the case of Astrid, who is the only paladin who naturally caps it in the second tier). They could use it for durability boosts in the form of avoid. Every% counts.

And at the bold, do I have to smack you with an idiot stick? Gatrie and Brom are too slow

Brom is most certainly not too slow. He can actually cap speed with heavy KW abuse, and a little less and he's still doubling. If you meant slow as in movement slow, then let's go back to:

1) Boots. Learn 'em.

Also, since Brom is a good supporter of Nephenee, we'll want to field him, and if we do, we might as well make him good.

Devdan is certainly being used when Neph can roflstomp in the stats that matter. And 13 SPD? Really? You're going to invest the time in a character who has 16 levels of growth with a 35% chance to proc speed? 65% chance with KW? When you already have a decent character?

You're going to invest the time in character with base 22 Hp and 8 strength, and 7 mov in a team fileld with 9 mov units? When you already have a god unit (Titania) and many up-and-coming God units (like Oscar/Kieran)? I better slap you with an idiot stick, my friend, as you've gone completely bonkers. :/

It means he can't grow as fast as others.

The speed of the growth of a unit does not matter in the slightest. Mordy's stats are fine the way they are.

Green is actually my favourite colour, not that is anything to do with this. It's just that come mid-game, Mordy's grinding to a halt because of his SKL and SPD growths. His skill is bad, and his speed is bad. Yes, he'll still deal a lot of damage, but his Hit rates will be shaky, and he can't double, which means he's less likely to OHKO or ORKO. He can't even OHKO soldiers in Chapter 19. Neph can at level 20/5 with a Steel Lance. And double. And face a hit rate of 47 displayed.

His hit rates will be shaky? I'm afraid not, 124 hit is enough to carry you all the way to endgame as enemies' avo rarely exceeds 40.

And we've already seen that his speed can be fixed through the use of a speedwing.

1x Soldier lv 19 (steel lance)

34 hp, 21 atk, 10 AS, 101 hit, 25 avo, 11 def, 5 res, 6 crit, 5 cev

Level 20/20 Nephenee with a silver lance forge(Not makeable yet, but w/e): 42.8 Atk

Nephenee cannot OHKO the chapter 19 soldiers. ever.

Mordy on the other hand, should be able to double this, unless he's still at level 2. The +3 bonus means he only needs to be level 8, and Neph has got 4 levels being promoted, let alone non-promoted, so this is easily attainable. Hack, with a speedwing, he achieves the speed needed after 2 levels. And is durable enough not to care about this soldier hitting him at all, unlike Neph.

It's not so much the fact of WTA, it's does he get those options? He's hurt in combat by lack of 2 range (javelins) and effective against enemies that can terrorize your other units. See a Longsword myrmidon? Nephenee. See a Laguz Slayer Myrmidon? Nephenee. See a Laguz Lance Soldier? Nephenee. My point is, Nephenee has the ability to switch between the weapons that she wants to use to either maximize her enemy phase action or to be more effective on the battlefield.

Does Neph have the option to kill which may actually affect the speed at which a chapter will be completed? probably not, as otherwise we'd see her in the low-turn stategies.

1-2 range enemies are so uncommon that they can be prioritised on the player phase. Or they're not a problem whatsoever. Take FE10's 4-4, filled with 1-2 range enemies, but still quickly dealt with by the 1 range of Janaff and Ulki.

And also, laguz enemies are barely an issue for Mordy. For example, in chapter 26 there's a laguz axe warrior with 44 effective Atk. Now, this looks like a lot, but a level 16 Mordy with the right supports (Mist and Ilyana) has 62 HP/55.6 avo/26.6 Def, so not only faces ~42% displayed hit from the guy, but only takes 17-18 damage anyway, which is a very small chunk out of his HP. Laguz enemies are not a problem.

In what world does 9*2 damage ORKO an Armour in midgame?

2x Knight lv 12 (iron lance)

28 hp, 17 atk, 3 AS, 97 hit, 9 avo, 15 def, 5 res

*from chapter 16

Base Mordy has 31 Atk, so yes, he can ORKO these guys especially when given proper levelling.

Concrete, no. Avo, yes. With 38|20|11 at 20/10, and Mordy having 40|18|8 at 15...wait what? Neph's doing better in DEF and RES than Mordy? And their HPs are the same? And what about Avo? 61 compared to 43? Neph's doing well when they're at the same level.

Stats are wrong I'm afraid. Using This, we can see Neph's def is 18.7, not 20, and her Res is 10.5, which doesn't round up because that's a 50/50 chance of going either way. Mordecai on the other hand, has 60.5 HP, 18 Def untransformed and unsupported (+5 def from supports alone put him above Neph), and 9 res transformed (with the .6 rounded down) and unsupported. Sorry, Mordy is still much more durable. Heck, with a speeding, he has 47 avo, rounding down his speed yet again, which is still fairly respectable especially given that concrete.

Of course, you'll come up with early game. Screw early game. You have Titania. Titania can handle the Armours, Ike can handle the pallies with some help (Neph, perhaps?), and Laguz are a joke after a while when the Laguz Lance begins to exist. Besides, the ravens you first fight aren't even that terrifying. Just make sure they don't get Rhys or Mist. You also have Jill and Marcia, and Titan, and Soren, and Ike/Zihark with a Laguz Slayer.

Mordy can also handle the armours. Mordy can also help Ike. Who can't/does it worse? Nephenee. This isn't Titania vs Mordy, or Ike vs Mordy, or Marcia vs Mordy. This is Neph vs Mordy. And Mordy >>>> Neph in the earlygame.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Kevin

[Zkirsche]

2 posts because of quote limit.

We'll assume Mordecai has a C rank Ilyana

Well, I guess Mist's too busy making out with Jill or something. Not that I have any problems with that, of course. :3

And Neph can double more enemies and have a bit of a better chance of avoiding.

Not if Mordy is given a speedwing, she can't.

And they both have 40 avo, so that's false.

And since Mordecai has 9 Mov compared to Illin's 6, what are the chances that they'll be in support range?

So what, neither Mist nor Ilyana are in range? What is this sandbag Mordy day? Besides, all that Ilyana gives him of any value here is def, and he still wins that even without the support active.

Doesn't need it. She's part of the clean up crew.

Oh yes, the group that contributes nothing to a boss kill/seize/arrive chapter. Goodie.

If it's an archer or wind mage targeting Marcia or Jill, gladly. If it's not, meh. Just equip a two range weapon and kill 'em from there. Unless there's something wrong with that? Or are we going for a complete pacifist run for FE9? No killing? Of course I'm going to kill them.

But why would I want to equip weak hand axes just for them when I can take them out on the Player Phase?

We're bringing Mordy to Endgame. I see another departing now.

Haha, touche, my friend, touche.

Neph and Mordy almost seem to trade off when it comes to usefulness. Mordy roflstomps in earlygame and falter in midgame, where Neph begins to pick up. They have a period where they're both useful, until your pallies begin to shine and become able to finish the chapters faster than Mordy can shift.

Mordy never falters. He ORKOs most things with a speedwing in the midgame, and deals some serious damage otherwise. And with 9 mov and smite to boot, he is one useful unit.

Oscar should already some growths kicking in, along with Boyd, and Kieran can do fine with a discarded forge or some BEXP. Then again, its not like we're going to fail the chapter because we forged a lance for Neph. She just needs that little extra boost to get up there. Like Mordy's Speedwing.

Sadly, Oscar's strength growth isn't great. A level 13 Oscar, for example, only has 10.5 str. So lets say that's 11 strength. Now, with his 8 AS with steel he isn't going to double anything (even 9, rounded up, doesn't double much), so he wants iron. That's 18 atk, and now he doesn't ORKO anything, and virtually tinks armours. Great job those growths did. Kieran has the same base strength, but has 1 more Atk thanks to axes. Not a large difference. Heck, even Boyd falls short on a ORKO with iron against the cavaliers, and is still weighed down by steel. And this is forgetting Ike, Brom and Soren who would all like some too.

And of course, Mordy doesn't take anything from the team, discarded forge or not.

After checking the FE9 HM Enemy data, there are no level 3 vigilantes. There are two weak Fighters, which I can only assume are elsewhere, while the myrmidons I'm talking about are found on the south side of the map, well away from where Zihark starts. They're by the Dracoshield house.

No, the vigilantes start next to Zihark, their boss talks to him at the start of the chapter.

I see you forgot to mention Mordy's stunning base hit of 114 and 11 AS in Midgame.

How has that got anything to do with durability? No-one doubles 11 AS (and anyone who does is probably too weak to deal serious damage), so w/e. Not to mention that hit stat is wrong. 90 hit from claws. 12 skl gives him +24. Then the 10 luck for 124 hit.

And of course, he isn't going to be his base level and resourceless and supprotless come midgame anyway, so that's moot.

Pallies charge through and don't care about the enemies on the side or reinforcements coming from behind.

They don't care because they don't slow them down. They don't stop them from reaching their objective: so how does killing them help teh team at all. All that it justifies is that Neph gets exp, which I wasn't even arguing anyway.

Odd, this sounds like smash. We want every unit to be as durable as possible, to use as little healing as possible, and we don't give a care to their offense.

I love how you don't respond to the point but instead choose to compare me to Smash.

Mordy's not seeing late-mid or late game. Mist and Titania is better in the long run. Mordy give's the +Mt, but so does Jill, and we don't have to wait for Mordy to get to his glorious 9 MOV.

Jill has Thunder, so she doesn't give back MT.

For reference, Jill 'A', Titania 'B' gives Mist + 5 Def, +2 Atk, + 7 avo, + 5 hit. 'A' Mordy, 'B' Jill gives +5 Def, +4 Atk, + 5 Avo. So My way gets Mist 2 more atk at the cost of 2 avo (negligible) and lolhit on a unit that uses swords- the most accurate weapon type.

So, my support system is better than yours. Why? Because it uses Mordy. We can simply field him just for the support later on if necessary.

We can drop Oscar for Titania. We drop Edward for Mia in FE10, Mia for Zihark in FE9, Vika for Nealuchi in FE10

No, we don't replace anyone for anything. If they're both good units, why would I drop one at all? It makes no sense. Now I can't use Marcia because Jill is better, now I can't use Kieran because Oscar is better. Now I can't use ike because Boyd is better etc. It doesn't work like that - you use all of them.

This isn't Mordy vs Muarim.

And 7 MOV is equal to 9 MOV (for exceptionally large values of 7). It doesn't seem to hit you that Mordecai needs to transform to bear any semblance of use besides meatshielding outside of earlygame.

He doesn't need to transform to smite. He doesn't need to transform to give better support bonuses (Mist has 8 mov and canto, so he can definitely keep up).

You need them in early game.

Before either Neph or Mordy even shows up, so how is this relevant? Remember they leave.

Also, I seem to recall that you said Gatrie deserves the KW.

Not deserves, wants to become much better than what he is if we're fielding him. He's garbage so he needs the help to dig him out of his hole - namely a speedwing and the KW.

And PEMN.

No, this is not personal experience, if neph uses the bexp, others cannot. This is fact. The levels were arbitrary. And yes, this is a disadvantage for her.

Kieran might want one, but he can just team up with Oscar or Marcia.

Or they don't need to team up at all, which is faster.

Neph's barely useful in durability and offense?

Yes, considering her durability isn't very good/reliable (especially when compared to Mordy), and her offence is poor due to low mov. (chapters 16, 18 and 19 are all very linear - there are no side paths for enemies to come from, so nothing to clear).

No we couldn't.

yes we could, because there's no other laguz that can use it in the team, so Mordy could use it.

You have Boyd, Nephenee, or Mordecai. I'm putting money that most people will go for Boyd or Neph.

Most people actually say that Titania sucks because she steals exp. Smart people actually look at stats before deciding this sort of thing:

@Chapter 28:

Level 19 Mordy w/Demi Band + speedwing, 'A' Mist, 'B' Ilyana: 66.5 HP, 43 Atk, 21 AS*, 58.8 Avo, 26.8 Def, 14.4 Res, 9 Mov

Level 20/18 Nephenee w/ silver lance forge, 'A' Brom, 'B' Calill: 43 HP*, 44 Atk, 26 AS, 85.4 Avo, 23* Def, 13.5 Res, 7 mov

*I rounded this up because of bands.

Is this suppose to be a roflstomp for Neph, then? Because 5 AS doesn't really looks like it. Especially since 21 AS actually doubles a fair bit of the map. And, along with 9 mov, he can help clear out the boss area teh fastest, which is the only part we need to clear out because that's the objective - so any flanking hawks/crows can be ignored efficiently.

Mordy's also still better in durability, as he doesn't care about being hit.

Nephenee will need a forge when you first get her so she can fire up and keep going. And some BEXP.

And enemy reinforcements.

If the didn't ORKO something

Psst - that's not going to happen. As I've already shown how Titania, who is said to "slow down" in the lategame, can still ORKO the whole map.

Mordecai can just stand there, at one range, no versatility, and meatwall. Neph can run around with a Silver Lance, a Spear, and Flame Lance, and a Heavy Spear to have fun with her toys.

And guess what, Mordy does his job better than Nephenee. It's sad when you have so many "options", but all are superfluous in the wake or Mordy's super-abs.

Overall:

-Mordy is like a jeigan in the earlygame, except you have to wait 5 turns for him.

-Mordy's combat remains better in the midgame, and he still has Smite. Neph is still relatively average.

-Mordy's combat is still comparable to Nephenee's, and has smite, and provides much more useful support bonuses.

Mordy > Neph.

[Anouleth]

Both of you put forward flawed debates...

Soren37

-Did not make enough of Mordecai's slow gauge

-Did not mention the possibility of rescue-dropping Nephenee forward

-Did not mention Wrath+Vantage

-Did not make enough of having 1-2 range access or Nephenee's superior speed

-Did not make an adequate case for Nephenee getting a forge, or access to specialist weapons

-Did not argue the Speedwing adequately

Kevin

-Did not adequately expand on how Mordecai can use Smite to effect

-Screwed up on securing the Demi Band

-Assumed the Speedwing w/o having secured the Demi Band

-Brought up the possibility of having Mordecai fight untransformed to build gauge

I think Kevin wins overall.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Zkirsche]

Thanks for the vote, anouleth. Just to explain some things:

-Screwed up on securing the Demi Band

I didn't try to secure it, I simply said if we're not using Muarim we can give it to Mordy, which is true.

-Assumed the Speedwing w/o having secured the Demi Band

Don't understand this, you think its a problem that I argued for the speedwing before securing the demi band? Why?

[Anouleth]

I didn't try to secure it, I simply said if we're not using Muarim we can give it to Mordy, which is true.

But Mordecai is a superior choice. He needs to wait a lot longer to transform if he doesn't get the band than Muarim. The only time Mordecai shouldn't get the band is when he doesn't need it because he's only smiting.

Don't understand this, you think its a problem that I argued for the speedwing before securing the demi band? Why?

If Mordecai does not have the demi band, he spends the first four turns of any map out of commission. Making him a terrible choice for a stat booster of any sort. Why should a character who is not fighting most of the time get a valuable stat booster?

[Junkhead]

You guys put up a nice show.