FE7 HHM Unranked Tier List v4

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Vykan12's tier list FAQ made of win and awesome. Read before posting, scrubs are annoying.

LHM is assumed.

-Jesus On Wheels-

Marcus

-Top-

Sain

Priscilla

Kent

Ninian/Nils

Raven

Florina

Matthew

-High-

Serra

Lowen

Oswin

Hector

Pent

-Upper Middle-

Hawkeye

Harken

Geitz

Lucius

Erk

Fiora

Heath

Isadora

Canas

Guy

Lyn

Dart

Legault

-Middle-

Dorcas

Farina

Eliwood

Rath

Vaida

Jaffar

-Lower Middle-

Bartre

Karel

Athos

Renault

Louise

Rebecca

-Low-

Wallace

Wil

Karla

Nino

Edited August 5, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'm making a second post of this so I don't clutter up the OP.

1: Marcus is now in his own "top tier".

2: I'd like to reconsider things about the Cavaliers in general, as well as maybe something about Raven's location.

3: please for the love of god eliwood down

4: This is the big one. I really, really, REALLY want to consider splitting this into 2 lists, namely "Combat" and "Non-Combat". In this, all the non-combat unit applications will be assessed in one list, while ONLY combat will be considered in the main tier list. Units like Serra and Priscilla will be considered to "not exist" until the point at which they promote, thus making promotion time factor into availability. Basically, units like Ninian/Nils would be removed entirely from the Combat tier list, and thieving / healing will not be taken into account for Matthew/Legault and Priscilla/Serra respectively on the combat tier list.

[Florete]

Vykan12's tier list FAQ made of win and awesome. Read before posting, scrubs are annoying.

Should probably link it.

[dondon151]

So does flying and mounted rescuing count under non-combat contributions?

[Darros]

It says unranked. If it's unranked why is Farina so low?

20000 gold is nothiing in an unranked one.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Should probably link it.

Thanks, fixed.

So does flying and mounted rescuing count under non-combat contributions?

Not exactly sure on that, that's the only real issue that I've been trying to figure out with this, because I tend to consider that more combat-related, but I don't know yet.

It says unranked. If it's unranked why is Farina so low?

20000 gold is nothiing in an unranked one.

A couple different reasons- availability, speed + con issues, general cost (she costs turns as well as money due to how late she shows up in the chapter), etc. She's a good character, but she's not exactly necessary when she comes, nor is she a combat superstar.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Galenforcer]

Why is Rebecca so high?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I... honestly have no idea. Above Fiora is a joke. Really, I think this tier list needs a fairly major revamp in general. I'll post a revised list soonish.

[Colonel M]

Renault should probably be Lower Mid since he has Warp capabilities for 32X and Final with Fortify use as well. Not that it's saying a whole lot since Pent and Athos have some claims to them as well, but considering Wil's entire career is probably chipping or killing two Pegasus Knights (unless he gets used on the Pirate Ship...) and the Warping is saving more turns. Not sure if he costs turns though, so maybe that has to be evaluated.

Furthermore, can we rename "Low" to "Stupid" tier? They are all stupid to recruit. If only Nino wasn't a forced requirement.

I'm also not sure how far you're going to take recruitment costs into account, but with play throughs goings at extreme speeds, I'm even questioning if getting Geitz is possible. It takes a shitload of planning out EXP, and I'm going to take a guess that it's going to cost turns in the end.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Life]

Why is Sain above Raven when Kent is under Lowen? Why can't we pull the same shit for Kent as you did for Sain in LHM?

Never mind the fact that I think promoting Sain in LHM is beyond favouritism since that point doesn't hold much water.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Life Admiral

[Narga_Rocks]

Why is Sain above Raven when Kent is under Lowen? Why can't we pull the same shit for Kent as you did for Sain in LHM?

Never mind the fact that I think promoting Sain in LHM is beyond favouritism since that point doesn't hold much water.

Who cares about favouritism? Does it work for lower turncounts better than the alternatives? If the answer to that question is "yes" then it is an action that we should consider. If the answer to that question is "no" then it might not hold weight (particularly if it causes turncounts to be higher than the alternatives rather than tie-gaming). Complaining about favouring Sain is like complaining that we are favouring Marcus when we let him get a ton of kills early game (or giving Titania a speedwing in RD or stuff like that). It's called playing efficiently.

Kent simply will not have the power of a guy like Sain, so even if you did try to get him up to 14/1 or whatever it wouldn't do as much. Also since you can only do this for one of your LM cavs, doing this for Kent denies you the option of doing this for Sain, who would be better. Negative Economic Profit.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Life]

Kent simply will not have the power of a guy like Sain, so even if you did try to get him up to 14/1 or whatever it wouldn't do as much. Also since you can only do this for one of your LM cavs, doing this for Kent denies you the option of doing this for Sain, who would be better. Negative Economic Profit.

I'm pretty sure that this list assumes that we, you know, use a unit properly if we're talking about them.

My problem here is that Kent is under Lowen. If we were to give Kent the same treatment, obviously he wouldn't perform as Sain would. But he would still be better than us assuming that he arrives at Lv. 7 once NLoC starts.

[Balcerzak]

Kent simply will not have the power of a guy like Sain, so even if you did try to get him up to 14/1 or whatever it wouldn't do as much. Also since you can only do this for one of your LM cavs, doing this for Kent denies you the option of doing this for Sain, who would be better. Negative Economic Profit.

That's like saying since Harken is better than Karel, Karel can't be better than Louise. Kent has the option of Lyn mode promotion, and even if it's not frequently exercised (like Karel's recruitment isn't frequently exercised), it should be reflected in the list, 'pulting him over Lowen.

[Life]

That's like saying since Harken is better than Karel, Karel can't be better than Louise. Kent has the option of Lyn mode promotion, and even if it's not frequently exercised (like Karel's recruitment isn't frequently exercised), it should be reflected in the list, 'pulting him over Lowen.

This is exactly my point. If we give Sain certain treatment, why can't we give the same to Kent? Kent at his best =/= Sain at his best but he comes very damn close to it.

[dondon151]

If we give Marcus certain treatment, why can't we give the same to Eliwood?

[Narga_Rocks]

This is exactly my point. If we give Sain certain treatment, why can't we give the same to Kent? Kent at his best =/= Sain at his best but he comes very damn close to it.

If we give Titania a speedwing, why can't we give Kyza a speedwing?

If we give Marcus a dracoshield, why can't we give Lyn a dracoshield?

If we give Sain a Knight's Crest, why can't we give Kent a Knight's Crest?

How is the last statement different from the first 2? Why is one resource considered free for all units and another resource considered restricted by how well they use it?

And no, Bal, this is different from recruitment issues. Although dropping Karel to the bottom of the list isn't completely crazy. It just depends on whether you want to include recruitment cost when creating the list.

[Life]

If we give Titania a speedwing, why can't we give Kyza a speedwing?

If we give Marcus a dracoshield, why can't we give Lyn a dracoshield?

If we give Sain a Knight's Crest, why can't we give Kent a Knight's Crest?

How is the last statement different from the first 2? Why is one resource considered free for all units and another resource considered restricted by how well they use it?

The last is different because Kent is almost as good as Sain in the same situation unlike Kyza or Lyn.

Sain has a 4 Str lead over Kent at 12/1 but Kent has almost a 2 AS lead (11.95 Spd is basically 12). If Sain is borderline doubling the faster stuff, Kent isn't. And then, it's Kent's 2 shots which are -8 damage against Sain's 1. So as long as Kent is doing 9+ damage, he's outdoes Sain on the faster enemies (stuff with 7 AS).

Is there every a point where Kyza or Lyn are just as good as Titania or Marcus? Probably not (lategame nuking with the Mani Katti doesn't really count). Is there a point where Kent is as good as Sain? When given the same resource, yes.

[Narga_Rocks]

When Sain doubles he kills, agreed? When Kent doubles, he doesn't kill as much. Agreed?

How much does Kent double and kill that Sain doesn't? If Kent does 80% damage and Sain does 60% damage to something Sain doesn't double, do we really care that Kent "outdoes" Sain? Probably not. On something that both double and Sain KOs but Kent doesn't, do we care now? Probably.

Marcus with a draco is pretty much always surviving at least one more enemy, sometimes two, early on. I know. But if Lyn can pull out Mani Katti and ORKO some cavs that Marcus doesn't double, and the draco lets her take on an extra one, is it so clear-cut? I'm not convinced that the gap between Sain and Kent with the crest is so much smaller than the gap in improvement between Marcus and Lyn. Sure, Marcus outperforms Lyn regardless, but in terms of the improvement is it so easy to say? Sometimes improving the best guy to be even better is a good idea. Sometimes he doesn't need to be improved though and improving someone else is a better idea. Take the boots and 8 move units. Is it better to have Seth with 10 move and Duessel with 6, or have both at 8? It's not always best to stick an item on the best guy.

[Life]

Marcus with a draco is pretty much always surviving at least one more enemy, sometimes two, early on. I know. But if Lyn can pull out Mani Katti and ORKO some cavs that Marcus doesn't double, and the draco lets her take on an extra one, is it so clear-cut? I'm not convinced that the gap between Sain and Kent with the crest is so much smaller than the gap in improvement between Marcus and Lyn. Sure, Marcus outperforms Lyn regardless, but in terms of the improvement is it so easy to say? Sometimes improving the best guy to be even better is a good idea. Sometimes he doesn't need to be improved though and improving someone else is a better idea. Take the boots and 8 move units. Is it better to have Seth with 10 move and Duessel with 6, or have both at 8? It's not always best to stick an item on the best guy.

It's still much better than Lowen at the very least who does not have a prayer of killing. If we give Kent the LHM Knight Crest, then his immediate contribution to the team upon rejoining (8 move and a second Marcus) will be miles and away better than Lowen for the rest of the game from that point on. Even with Lowen's availability lead, how can he outdo Kent?

My whole point here is that we're only crediting Sain for his ability to promote in LHM. Kent can do so too and produce similar results. And by doing so, he's better (not by much but still better) than a couple people above him.

[Narga_Rocks]

So you propose that we completely ignore what this action costs us (tier 2 Sain), basically.

That's the problem. You are drawing the line where you feel like it. Somehow, it's completely okay to ignore what giving Kent the crest costs us (Sain), but it's not okay to ignore what giving Lyn the draco costs us. Or any other decision. Just because you feel that the overall improvement to the team when Kent gets it compared to Sain is a little closer than Lyn getting a draco compared to some other unit. Or Florina getting it, or something. Think of Florina with a robe and a drop and a shield (two of which come from Lyn mode).

Edited December 30, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

I'm also not sure how far you're going to take recruitment costs into account, but with play throughs goings at extreme speeds, I'm even questioning if getting Geitz is possible. It takes a shitload of planning out EXP, and I'm going to take a guess that it's going to cost turns in the end.

Even the chapter itself may require more turns to complete than Wallace's version, since I just did a runthrough of that chapter myself. Loyd's more durable than Linus, he's further away, and the only quick way to him is by flight, which has the problem of a Bolting sage nearby, and the fact that on ground there are just so many mercenaries to clog your way.

I wouldn't even say Geitz is worth it unless you're actually using Dart seriously. It's painless if Dart can find a way to not get doubled by Geitz so he can take a Steel bow and then just walk up and recruit him, but Dart needs +2 speed to manage. Even when you consider it, Geitz is just another drop of water in a bucket when you have a team that is mostly constructed of mounted units.

Strictly speaking, there is no real reward out of Linus's chapter outside of more EXP.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Amaterasu

[Seven Deadly Sins]

ugh

i've explained this a couple times but fine

Sain has the ability to ORKO shit all day long with an early promo, and doesn't need any resources. Kent can't manage the same, and if you early promote him, you can't give him the Energy Ring without costing like 4 turns due to the Rain and the fact that he needs to kill Lundgren (let's face it, none of the rest of your scrubtastic team matches up). On top of this, Sain gets EXP significantly more easily by ORKOing everything under the sun in LM, something Kent may not even manage to achieve. The end result is that Sain is significantly better with an early promo than Kent, as an early promotion affects Kent's ability to ORKO all game, while Sain will never have problems obliterating enemies with his amazing Strength growth.

Besides, this is FE7. Enemies in this are balls slow. The only things Kent can double that Sain can't are earlygame iron Mercenaries, but then once they grow up and graduate to Steel, and Sain gets a couple levels under his belt, now this isn't even a problem. On top of that, SAIN OHKOS MAGES WITH IRON / RANGED WEAPONS. This is a big fucking deal, as he can avoid a counter on Player Phase and still be in position to counterpwn mages on Enemy Phase.

So yes, Sain is significantly better than Kent with the early promotion.

[-Cynthia-]

Why do you need a promoted unit to kill Lundgren? Erk and Lucius can deal pretty decent damage with a few levels under their belt, and Lyn doubles him with effective damage and crit.

[Life]

So you propose that we completely ignore what this action costs us (tier 2 Sain), basically.

That's the problem. You are drawing the line where you feel like it. Somehow, it's completely okay to ignore what giving Kent the crest costs us (Sain), but it's not okay to ignore what giving Lyn the draco costs us. Or any other decision. Just because you feel that the overall improvement to the team when Kent gets it compared to Sain is a little closer than Lyn getting a draco compared to some other unit. Or Florina getting it, or something. Think of Florina with a robe and a drop and a shield (two of which come from Lyn mode).

If I am not allowed to deny Sain early promotion for the purposes of showing that Kent > Lowen, then you're telling me that there is only one way to play this game. All stat boosters and all promo items go to a certain person/bank based on averages.

Which means that we might as well split the list into three catagories: Always use, sometimes use and never use. Because if there's only one way that I'm allowed to distribute resources (which includes unit spots since the resource is combat Exp), people like Wil and Canas will never see action outside of their joining chapter since there is always someone better. Which means that both are in the "never use" catagory.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Life Admiral

[Florete]

That's the problem. You are drawing the line where you feel like it.

Lines are drawn everywhere when it comes to FE tier lists depending on how people see it. The line of "get the absolute minimum turn count" that people seemed to want is the main reason I'm no longer editing this list.

Why is Life's line such a bad one? He's merely taking a broader look at what a certain unit can do with a resource. However, because it's not the absolute best use of said resource, you deny it. What becomes the point of this list? Where is discussion value when the "best way" has been determined and everyone fits neatly into their proper slot on the list based on one single way to get through the game?