Life Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Putting the topic up. Edited January 19, 2011 by King Russell Hantz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Lethe vs. Stefan. This is a rather odd matchup and one I have seen happen only rarely back on ye olde Gamefaqs. As I have requested to make the opening post, allow me to begin. Lethe first joins the team in chapter 10 after a quick stint as a partner character in chapter 9. Upon her joining, her base stats are as follows. Lethe: Level: 3 (Promoted/Laguz). HP: 34, STR: 12, MAG: 4 SKL: 10, SPD: 12, LCK: 15, DEF: 9, RES: 7. Lethe gets an additional 6 STR, 4 SKL, 3 SPD, 5 DEF, and 3 RES when transformed without a demiband for a total of the following: Lethe (transformed): Lethe: Level: 3 (Promoted/Laguz). HP: 34, STR: 18, MAG: 4 SKL: 14, SPD: 15, LCK: 15, DEF: 14, RES: 10. Additionally, when transformed, she has 9 movement to add to her advantages. As for her weapon, she is considered to be always equipped with the Laguz Claw which has the following stats: Laguz Claw: MT: 8, Hit: 90, Crit: 0, Wt: 1. Uses; Infinite. Lethe's growth rates are as follows: HP: 130, STR: 50, MAG: 5, SKL: 65, SPD: 70, Luck: 50, DEF: 40, RES 25. Since Lethe joins with only 17 levels to grow it is very likely that she will reach level ??/20 by the endgame. At maximum level her stats are as follows: Lethe (Untransformed) (Unrounded): Level 20: HP: 56.1, STR: 20.5, MAG: 4.85, SKL: 21.05, SPD: 23.9 LCK: 23.5, DEF 15.8 RES: 11.25. Lethe (Transformed) (Rounded) (Undemied): Level 20. HP: 56. STR: 26-27. MAG: 5 SKL: 25 SPD 27. LCK: 23-24. DEF: 21. RES: 14. Lethe (Transformed) (rounded) (Demied): Level 20. HP: 56. STR: 23-24. MAG: 5 SKL: 23. SPD: 25. LCK: 23-24. DEF: 18. RES: 12 The above has been done so that numbers may be readily accessed for Lethe throughout the debate. Okay. Lethe joins on chapter 10 (following her stint as a partner character in chapter 9). Allow me to address her performance in chapter 9 first. I understand the tier list is based on a desire to complete the chapters as fast as possible, however I desire to cover all of my bases. First off, if the player either believes himself to be capable of completing chapter 9 with an acceptable turn count without using Lethe/Mordi, all he has to do is instruct them to target a corner off in the distance. The two laguz will move there and stay out of combat, not taking any EXP, while the player completes the map. This means that, if for any reason the player feels he needs to use Lethe/Mordi, it can only be a uphill climb in their contribution! So what if the player decides to use Lethe/Mordi in this chapter? Well, in this chapter Lethe's stats are the following: Lethe (transformed): Lethe: Level: 3 (Promoted/Laguz). HP: 34, STR: 18, MAG: 4 SKL: 14, SPD: 15, LCK: 15, DEF: 14, RES: 10. Combined with her weapon, she will have 26 MT in this chapter. For comparison, Titania wielding a steel axe (MT: 11) needs 15 STR in order to tie. 14 STR if you want to assume she has a WTA. Titania won't get this unless she has managed to reach level 7-8, which would mean she has managed to net far more level-ups than I think can be fairly given to her without dubbing it a 'Titania solo' run. It is true that, on this chapter, Titania will be faster than Lethe so long as Titania has reached level 3, but there are only four enemies on the map whom are fast enough for Lethe to fail to double, of which two are the boss and Nedata, while the other two are mymerdions. Every other enemy on the map, Lethe doubles. Additionally, it takes a level 5 Titania to double even the slowest of the enemies Lethe fails to double (or a level 11 Mia). Since Lethe counts as a foot soldier, she is capable of heading out onto the beach without a penalty to her movement, which is great because that allows Titania to face off against the main boss. Since Lethe transforms at the start of the map, she is also capable of slaughter right away, unlike Mordi who needs to wait 5 turns (assuming he doesn't fight). In chapter 10, Lethe is easily the second-strongest character on the map, losing out only to Titania. Without a demiband, Mordi can't transform until turn 5, which is unacceptable if you are not doing a stealth-run (I believe she is required for a stealth-run as well). In chapter 10, the hardest enemy is Danomill. Stats are as follows: Danomill lv 3 (steel blade, steel lance, master seal [d]) 42 hp, 28 atk, 10 AS, 105 hit, 24 avo, 17 def, 10 res, 6 crit, 4 cev. Against Danomill, a base-level Lethe is capable of doubling and dealing 18 damage, bringing him down to 24 HP. Since Lethe has 45 AVO, his 105 Hit is 60 displayed. Assuming she gets hit twice, she will take 28 damage, leaving her with 6 HP to spare. Lethe alone is almost enough to kill Danomill. A heal from Mist/Rhys or a magic attack from Soren/Ilyana should be enough to kill him (or pretty much anyone with a anti-armor weapon. Or Boyd/Titania.) In chapter 11, since Lethe transforms right off the bat, she is the only way to get to Zihark and clear out the vigilantes that does not involve a laguz stone and/or risks losing Zihark/Jill (Mordi either has to wait, or soak up the damage while Zihark kills them off). In chapters 12 and 13 Lethe is one of the few characters who can feasibly double the ravens as well as stand up to a enemy-phase of feathers. Once again, as a foot unit, on 15 she is utterly invaluable and possibly required to get Stefan while maintaining a minimum turn count. Even if her use wanes after 15, these are five chapters during which she is arguably the second most powerful unit on the field (Only Titania and Mordi can even compete without a load of Bexp) and she is a god-send for at least several of the chapters including the ones with ravens. How is Stefan anyways? When Stefan joins, his stats are as follows: Level 8 HP:38 STR: 19 MAG: 8 SKL: 27 SPD: 25 LCK: 5 DEF: 12 RES: 9 Additionally he joins in the upper-right corner of the map, separated from everyone else. He basically is incapable of contributing until chapter 16. These are Lethe's base stats for comparison: HP: 34, STR: 18, MAG: 4 SKL: 14, SPD: 15, LCK: 15, DEF: 14, RES: 10. Sure, Stefan wins HP by 4, STR by 1, SKL by 13, and SPD by 10. He also loses luck by 10, DEF by 2, and RES by 1. In fact, a demi-banded Lethe is about as durable as him (4 less HP, 1 less RES) if you ignore his AVO. This is a Lethe who, basically, hasn't existed for five chapters. Assuming she eeks out a average of 1 level per chapter (rough average. She is really useful when killing Laguz and all) Lethe's stats will be as follows: Lethe: Level: 8 (rounded + undemied): HP: 40-41 STR 20-21, SKL: 17, SPD: 18-19, LCK 17-18 DEF: 16, RES: 11. This means that Lethe wins HP by 2-3, STR by 1-2, Luck by 13, DEF by 4 and RES by 2. Stefan wins SKL by 10 and SPD by 6-7. Ironically this means that Lethe is the better dodger since her LCK lead gives her 15 AVO while Stefan's SPD lead gives him only 14 AVO at best. While its true that Stefan has the advantage of being able to pick up swords, he also has the DISADVANTAGE of working with the WT and a WTD against lances. So even with the Katti, (MT 12) Lethe's claws (MT: 8) lose only by 1-2 points of damage assuming he has a WTD (which also means he dodges less). Sure, Swords give Stefan an advantage. Being capable of diving into weapons like the Armorslayer and all is huge. However it is telling that he only wins by 1-2 points with the VK. Now sure, the VK's main advantage is its crit and defense boost. With the VK, Stefan has a 50% critical rate base (before SKL) and he gets +3 DEF on top of it. However, the VK is also one of the strongest swords available. Steel can only surpass 12 MT with a forge and Silver swords aren't available for a long time for purchase. So either Stefan needs forges to beat Lethe's MT, or we need to wait for Lethe's transform gauge to fill up. A 5 turn downtime (that can be shortened if we expose her carefully to enemies) once or twice if things get REALLY slow seems much less a negative to the team than having to spend a forge constantly on Stefan to receive basically the same result. Yes, by the endgame, Stefan will have the advantage as well. Lethe's stats will be as follows: Lethe (Transformed) (Rounded) (Undemied): Level 20. HP: 56. STR: 26-27. MAG: 5 SKL: 25 SPD 27. LCK: 23-24. DEF: 21. RES: 14. While Stefans will be as follows Level 20 HP: 46 STR: 24 MAG: 10.4 SKL: 29 SPD: 30 Luck: 8 DEF: 16 RES: 13. Note, Lethe still wins HP by 10, STR by 2-3. LCK: by 15-16, DEF by 4, and RES by 1. Stefan wins SKL by 4 and SPD by 3. This means that Lethe's avoid is better (15 from luck vs. 6 from SPD) and she is all-around more durable. She only loses to Stefan because Silver Weapons and Silver Forges are now available. Since Silver is unavailable until chapter 23, this pretty much seals Stefan's fate. From chapters 9-22, Lethe will preform better than him, his only victories coming at the cost of forged weapons, while 23 on he will win only because Silver is now readily available. What about supports? Lethe has the following support options: Ike, Jill, Muarim, and Ranulf. Stefan has the following: Soren, Mordi. On Ike's list, Lethe ranks pretty low. Below Oscar and Soren for sure and possibly Titania as well (depending on how valuable that 1 DEF is). Reyson, Ranulf, and Elincia are below her however, so Lethe has a CHANCE (not a big one but still) for a Ike B. Jill has only three options, and one of those is Haar. Lethe can eek out a B from her easily enough. Likewise, Muarim wouldn't mind a B since his other option is Largo. Ranulf won't likely get the Ike support, leaving him with only two choices. In short, Ike aside, Lethe will likely get a B. If Oscar goes Kieran/Tanith for the mounted advantage and Titania goes Boyd/Mist/Rhys for the attack, Lethe can slip in for a Ike B as well. Assuming a Jill/Muarim duel B, Lethe can net 2 DEF, 10 AVO, and 20 Hit. Stefan only has two support options. Soren and Mordi. Soren wants a B-Ike, and Ike wants a B-Soren at least. Mordi can support Ilyana and Mist over Stefan for better bonuses (+5 defense assuming a A/B with them!). Since both of them want Mordi supports as well, Stefan has to hope neither gets played. Assuming he lucks out, Stefan can net +1 attack, +7.5 AVO, +1 defense and +15 hit from a Soren/Mordi A/B. While Stefan has the stronger supports, they require that Ike not A-support Soren and Ilyana/Mist not be in play, making Lethe's supports better overall. In conclusion: Lethe starts off very strong and is the second most powerful character, capable of completing with Titania, when she joins. She remains fairly strong throughout the game and when Stefan joins, he needs either the VK or forged weapons to be capable of competing; both of which are in short supply. It's not until silver weapons come along that he's capable of eeking out ahead. Before then, Lethe's sheer dominance is more than worth those few turns per chapter where she needs to be untransformed. Edit: Either I did it wrong, or [.code] would make peoples eyes bleed more with the single-line format and the random altering to green. Edited January 20, 2011 by Snowy_One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) My eyes bleed from your format. Snowy, can you put your shit in [.code][./code] format? Please? Lethe vs. Stefan. This is a rather odd matchup and one I have seen happen only rarely back on ye olde Gamefaqs. As I have requested to make the opening post, allow me to begin. Lethe first joins the team in chapter 10 after a quick stint as a partner character in chapter 9. Upon her joining, her base stats are as follows. Lethe: Level: 3 (Promoted/Laguz). HP: 34, STR: 12, MAG: 4 SKL: 10, SPD: 12, LCK: 15, DEF: 9, RES: 7. Lethe gets an additional 6 STR, 4 SKL, 3 SPD, 5 DEF, and 3 RES when transformed without a demiband for a total of the following: Lethe (transformed): Lethe: Level: 3 (Promoted/Laguz). HP: 34, STR: 18, MAG: 4 SKL: 14, SPD: 15, LCK: 15, DEF: 14, RES: 10. Additionally, when transformed, she has 9 movement to add to her advantages. As for her weapon, she is considered to be always equipped with the Laguz Claw which has the following stats: Laguz Claw: MT: 8, Hit: 90, Crit: 0, Wt: 1. Uses; Infinite. Lethe's growth rates are as follows: HP: 130, STR: 50, MAG: 5, SKL: 65, SPD: 70, Luck: 50, DEF: 40, RES 25. Since Lethe joins with only 17 levels to grow it is very likely that she will reach level ??/20 by the endgame. At maximum level her stats are as follows: Lethe (Untransformed) (Unrounded): Level 20: HP: 56.1, STR: 20.5, MAG: 4.85, SKL: 21.05, SPD: 23.9 LCK: 23.5, DEF 15.8 RES: 11.25. Lethe (Transformed) (Rounded) (Undemied): Level 20. HP: 56. STR: 26-27. MAG: 5 SKL: 25 SPD 27. LCK: 23-24. DEF: 21. RES: 14. Lethe (Transformed) (rounded) (Demied): Level 20. HP: 56. STR: 23-24. MAG: 5 SKL: 23. SPD: 25. LCK: 23-24. DEF: 18. RES: 12 The above has been done so that numbers may be readily accessed for Lethe throughout the debate. <SNIP> Edit: Either I did it wrong, or [.code] would make peoples eyes bleed more with the single-line format and the random altering to green. That last line made more than just myself giggle (I even got a PM about it from another user). Snowy, I'm surprised that you'll be able to interpret anything from the way your formatted that shit since I have a hard time reading it. Now, the first mistake you made was the bolded part. First off, this isn't Easy Mode where 8~9 people hit 20/20. This is Hard Mode. And in Hard Mode, there's a severe Exp cut. Check it out. Experience from defeating enemy = (Battle Exp base + [enemy's Power - Power] + Mode bonus + Boss bonus + Thief bonus) x Skill coefficient Mode bonus: 30 for Easy mode, 20 for Normal mode, 15 for Hard mode, 10 for Maniac mode Boss bonus: 30 if enemy is a boss, 40 if enemy is a boss in Easy mode In Easy Mode, every person gets an extra 15 Exp for a kill and an additional 10 if it's a boss. Much less people are hitting 20/20, even after considering BExp (shoveling a ton of it into Mist is usually a good idea since she doesn't give a fuck about if she promotes at level 10). Now this would be all fine and dandy if we didn't have problem number two. Lethe is considered to be an already promoted unit. She starts off with a base Power of 23. This drastically cuts the amount of Exp she receives from your average mook. And then when you consider that she's not even gaining Exp for half of any given chapter, I have to wonder why you would ever post her ??/20 stats since Lethe isn't maxing out her level without severe BExp help. Oh and can't forget your calculation mistakes. All fractions are rounded down. If you want to argue the random variance shit for Luck and Str, Lethe actually has more of a chance of ending the game with 20 Str and 23 Luck instead of 21 Str and 24 Luck. Gotta find the link for it though. Lethe - Level 20 Beast Tribe HP: 56.1 STR: 20.5 MAG: 4.85 SKL: 21.05 SPD: 23.9 LCK: 23.5 DEF: 15.8 RES: 11.25 Lethe - Level 20 Cat HP: 56.1 STR: 26.5 MAG: 4.85 SKL: 25.05 SPD: 26.9 LCK: 23.5 DEF: 20.8 RES: 14.25 Lethe - Level 20 Cat (Demi Band) HP: 56.1 STR: 23.5 MAG: 4.85 SKL: 23.05 SPD: 24.9 LCK: 23.5 DEF: 17.8 RES: 12.25 For the record, this isn't even close to the best way to organize the data. But doesn't it look much more readable? Okay. Lethe joins on chapter 10 (following her stint as a partner character in chapter 9). Allow me to address her performance in chapter 9 first. I understand the tier list is based on a desire to complete the chapters as fast as possible, however I desire to cover all of my bases. First off, if the player either believes himself to be capable of completing chapter 9 with an acceptable turn count without using Lethe/Mordi, all he has to do is instruct them to target a corner off in the distance. The two laguz will move there and stay out of combat, not taking any EXP, while the player completes the map. This means that, if for any reason the player feels he needs to use Lethe/Mordi, it can only be a uphill climb in their contribution! No disagreement here. So what if the player decides to use Lethe/Mordi in this chapter? Well, in this chapter Lethe's stats are the following: Lethe (transformed): Lethe: Level: 3 (Promoted/Laguz). HP: 34, STR: 18, MAG: 4 SKL: 14, SPD: 15, LCK: 15, DEF: 14, RES: 10. Combined with her weapon, she will have 26 MT in this chapter. For comparison, Titania wielding a steel axe (MT: 11) needs 15 STR in order to tie. 14 STR if you want to assume she has a WTA. Titania won't get this unless she has managed to reach level 7-8, which would mean she has managed to net far more level-ups than I think can be fairly given to her without dubbing it a 'Titania solo' run. It is true that, on this chapter, Titania will be faster than Lethe so long as Titania has reached level 3, but there are only four enemies on the map whom are fast enough for Lethe to fail to double, of which two are the boss and Nedata, while the other two are mymerdions. Every other enemy on the map, Lethe doubles. Additionally, it takes a level 5 Titania to double even the slowest of the enemies Lethe fails to double (or a level 11 Mia).Since Lethe counts as a foot soldier, she is capable of heading out onto the beach without a penalty to her movement, which is great because that allows Titania to face off against the main boss. Since Lethe transforms at the start of the map, she is also capable of slaughter right away, unlike Mordi who needs to wait 5 turns (assuming he doesn't fight). I have no disagreement with Lethe going south to help out Titania. As much as everyone wishes it was so, Titania is not God and can die. That being said, after saying something smart, did you honestly have to follow it up with an idiotic comment? The beach is free Exp for everyone not named Titania (and Oscar). Why should Lethe EVER be there? Now on the topic of Lethe vs. Titania, you're quite funny. It really doesn't matter if Lethe is faster than Titania. All that matters is that Titania doubles basically everything from 2 range, something that Lethe can't do (2 range, not doubling). At level 3, Titania has 14 AS with a Hand Axe. That doubles... everything of importance with the exception of Kotaff (a couple of myrmidons aren't important). And she hits everything back with an impressive 19 MT from 1~2 range. This is something that Lethe can't do and the fact that you cannot control Lethe's specific actions doesn't help either. In chapter 10, Lethe is easily the second-strongest character on the map, losing out only to Titania. Without a demiband, Mordi can't transform until turn 5, which is unacceptable if you are not doing a stealth-run (I believe she is required for a stealth-run as well). In chapter 10, the hardest enemy is Danomill. Stats are as follows: Danomill lv 3 (steel blade, steel lance, master seal [d]) 42 hp, 28 atk, 10 AS, 105 hit, 24 avo, 17 def, 10 res, 6 crit, 4 cev. Against Danomill, a base-level Lethe is capable of doubling and dealing 18 damage, bringing him down to 24 HP. Since Lethe has 45 AVO, his 105 Hit is 60 displayed. Assuming she gets hit twice, she will take 28 damage, leaving her with 6 HP to spare. Lethe alone is almost enough to kill Danomill. A heal from Mist/Rhys or a magic attack from Soren/Ilyana should be enough to kill him (or pretty much anyone with a anti-armor weapon. Or Boyd/Titania.) And the mistakes just start coming. The entire bolded part is incorrect. Lethe won't be fighting Danomill because she will be untransformed long before reaching him. She loses 3 points a turn and 1 point for every single battle. She's at least at 15 after turn 1 (both soldiers attack her to avoid getting mauled by Titania) and reinforcements block her path around Neph's cell. A lot have 2 range (1 Mage, 1 Archer, 2 Knights with Javelins and 1 Halberdier with a Short Spear) and even if Lethe doesn't counter, her gauge still goes down. Lethe will be the first person to reach Danomill. This is a fact and I won't deny it. But will she still be in Cat mode by the time she gets there? I seriously doubt it and I'm not the only one here. In chapter 11, since Lethe transforms right off the bat, she is the only way to get to Zihark an/d clear out the vigilantes that does not involve a laguz stone and/or risks losing Zihark/Jill (Mordi either has to wait, or soak up the damage while Zihark kills them off). In chapters 12 and 13 Lethe is one of the few characters who can feasibly double the ravens as well as stand up to a enemy-phase of feathers. Once again, as a foot unit, on 15 she is utterly invaluable and possibly required to get Stefan while maintaining a minimum turn count. Even if her use wanes after 15, these are five chapters during which she is arguably the second most powerful unit on the field (Only Titania and Mordi can even compete without a load of Bexp) and she is a god-send for at least several of the chapters including the ones with ravens. With regard to Blood Runs Red, it should be noted that after Lethe beats up on level 1 and 2 Myrmidons (which is like racing a kid in a wheelchair) and recruits Zihark, her role in the map is done. Mackoya has a 2 range weapon in an Iron Bow and a 1 range killer in the Laguzslayer. Lethe ain't going near that guy. In A Strange Land and A Guiding Ring, you severely overrate Lethe's fighting ability. Lethe has 26 Att against Ravens and doubles... oh wait, she doesn't. She needs 17 AS to double the Level 2 Raven and it's the only one with 13 AS. 17 AS means Level 6. Considering that fucking Titania isn't going to be at level 6 and is a much better unit to pump BExp into (1~2 range with the Hand Axe), you can forget Lethe doubling Ravens in either of these chapters. On a side note, Lethe does 2HKO most of the Ravens in both chapters. However, she's not the only one. Any sword user needs 8 Str to do the same (and hold the Laguzslayer) so Ike, Mia and Zihark all exist in that category and tie or better Lethe's offense. 11 Str along with the Killer Lance nails a OHKO on a Raven which is something that Titania has. Level 15 Oscar and Level 13 Marcia (very unlikely for Oscar but Marcia is possible) also replicate the OHKO but the important thing here is that a single critical hit with the Killer Lance is a 2HKO. Lethe's offense here isn't really something to be proud of since she's supposed to be this killer machine and other non-Titania units are just as good at Raven killing. I also love how you conveniently left Chapter 14 off the list. Is this because of by the time that Lethe gets to Gashilama, she's untransformed? Oh dear, you should really mention this major hiccup in Lethe's performances since once Stefan joins, it just gets magnified. How is Stefan anyways? When Stefan joins, his stats are as follows: Level 8 HP:38 STR: 19 MAG: 8 SKL: 27 SPD: 25 LCK: 5 DEF: 12 RES: 9 Additionally he joins in the upper-right corner of the map, separated from everyone else. He basically is incapable of contributing until chapter 16. These are Lethe's base stats for comparison: HP: 34, STR: 18, MAG: 4 SKL: 14, SPD: 15, LCK: 15, DEF: 14, RES: 10. Sure, Stefan wins HP by 4, STR by 1, SKL by 13, and SPD by 10. He also loses luck by 10, DEF by 2, and RES by 1. In fact, a demi-banded Lethe is about as durable as him (4 less HP, 1 less RES) if you ignore his AVO. This is a Lethe who, basically, hasn't existed for five chapters. Assuming she eeks out a average of 1 level per chapter (rough average. She is really useful when killing Laguz and all) Lethe's stats will be as follows: Lethe: Level: 8 (rounded + undemied): HP: 40-41 STR 20-21, SKL: 17, SPD: 18-19, LCK 17-18 DEF: 16, RES: 11. This means that Lethe wins HP by 2-3, STR by 1-2, Luck by 13, DEF by 4 and RES by 2. Stefan wins SKL by 10 and SPD by 6-7. Ironically this means that Lethe is the better dodger since her LCK lead gives her 15 AVO while Stefan's SPD lead gives him only 14 AVO at best. While its true that Stefan has the advantage of being able to pick up swords, he also has the DISADVANTAGE of working with the WT and a WTD against lances. So even with the Katti, (MT 12) Lethe's claws (MT: 8) lose only by 1-2 points of damage assuming he has a WTD (which also means he dodges less). First off, learn how to use [.code][./code]. Seriously. I can't read half of that shit. If your gameplan was to blind me with the sheer amount of numbers in a paragraph, congrats, it's working. Now onto your points. Let's start with offense. Stefan absolutely murders Lethe in it thanks to his incredible bases (before Astra). I'll give Lethe level 7 for the sake of the comparison but I don't see how she's getting there (she hits level 4 in Chapter 12, 5 in 14 and 6 if she's lucky by the end of 15). Stefan - Level 8 Swordsman - S Swords Vague Katti: 31 Att, 139 Hit, 25 AS, 63 Crit Iron Blade: 28 Att, 129 Hit, 25 AS, 28 Crit Lethe - Level 7 Cat Claws: 28 Att, 139 Hit, 17 AS, 8 Crit Fuck. Stefan is so good that it's scary. Before we consider Astra, Stefan flat out beats Lethe in AS (doubling absolutely everything barring a couple of SMs between now and Endgame) and Att. Also, consider these three important points. 1. 19 Str means that Stefan cannot lose AS from a single weapon in this game. This is his BASE Str, mind you. Toss a 50% growth rate onto that and you have an offensive machine. 2. S Swords gives him access to every sword in the game. It also means that he's the sole wielder of the Vague Katti for a long time, if not the rest of the game. Ike will never use it since he gets Ragnell in the second half of 27 and the game becomes more like an interactive cutscene at that point. Zihark and Mia might fight for it but they still need to hit S Swords first and Stefan's 19 base Str and 28 base Crit probably utilizes the Vague Katti better than either of them (if you start Mia love, I will fucking blast you for it since Stefan has no chance of being RNG screwed). Now there is one thing that ties Lethe and Stefan. No 1~2 range. That being said, Stefan can take a shot at the Sonic Sword since he does have 8 base Mag. Is he the prime choice for the sword? No. But does it give him the option of 1~2 range? Yes. Can Lethe ever have 1~2 range? No. 3. Stefan's offense is consistent while Lethe's is not. See, I've been mentioning Lethe's transformation issues here and there but it's time to get down to the nitty gritty of it. Lethe starts off with a full Laguz gauge. If she does no fighting and lets it run out normally, she will transform back on Turn 7. Two fights of any kind knocks this number down to Turn 6. An additional three fights makes Lethe revert on Turn 5, giving her only 4 turns of offense. You see where I'm going with this? The more combat Lethe sees, the less time she has to be effective. All it takes is 5 fights between Turn 1 and the end of Enemy Turn 4 to revert Lethe back into her mewing little pussy stage. And Lethe doesn't even have to attack for the gauge to go down. Hell, she could be targeted by a ballista and she'd still lose points. This is acceptable in Lethe's first few chapters while most of the combat happens while she's transformed. But what about after Stefan joins? Let's review the chapters: 16 - Most of the fighting takes place near the throne room and by now, we're already at Turn 6 or 7. Lethe's useless here. Stefan 1-0. 17 - Good chapter for Lethe. Stefan 2-1. 18 - Once again, most of the fighting is near Kayachey since before him, all we really have are like 2 Knights and a Warrior. Stefan 3-1. 19 - Another good chapter for Lethe. Stefan 4-2. 20 - The heavy fighting begins on Turn 4 (the first turn that we can actually hit the Wyvern reinforcements) and then lasts right through until we hit Shiharam. Lethe detransforms too early. Stefan 5-2. 21 - "lol". This chapter is way too big for Lethe to do anything of worthwhile. Hell, she might even transform her second time before she sees any combat (since she can't fight as Beast Tribe). Stefan 6-2. 22 - It's generally one turned since Calill can turn Schaeffer into roast beef. So Lethe's transformation on Turn 1 means squat. Stefan 6-2. 23 - Most of the fighting is at the tail end of the bridge, right with Petrine. That's at least 6 turns in. Stefan 7-2. 24 - Lethe can get in a couple of shots before she transforms if she goes north but doing that means that she's doing a job anyone can do (beating a Berserker and 2 Bandits). Going West has her losing Cat form before facing down Rikard. Stefan 8-2. 25 - Most of the units sit at the top of the slope. A bunch are on the way to the top guys so Lethe might get in a fight or two but she's useless when the majority of the enemies fight the army. Stefan 9-2. Notice that Lethe has only 2 chapter where her early transformation time is a lot more help than hurt. In the rest of the cases, she's basically dead weight and should be yanked out for someone who's actually useful, like Stefan for instance. Also note that I gave Stefan a point for every chapter that wasn't 22. That's because Stefan's offense is always constant and he doesn't have stupid shit like Transformation killing it. If Stefan and Lethe were in a boxing match, Lethe would be George Forman pounding away at Ali's torso but wearing herself out quickly while doing nothing significant. Then Stefan Ali would beat the shit out of her from Round 7 onwards since he's still got energy left in the tank. I call it the Rope-a-Shitty-Unit strategy. In case that analogy flew right over your head, my point is this. Lethe is severely crippled by her laguz gauge. Stefan, being a beorc, doesn't have to worry about it and proceeds to murder everything in sight. To sum up Lethe vs. Stefan in the offensive side, here are the relevant points: 1) Stefan is an offensive god since he doubles just about everything even with the heaviest sword equipped. 2) The Vague Katti and Sonic Sword allow Stefan to reliably ORKO anything that looks at him funny or attack at 2 range, both things that Lethe cannot do. 3) Stefan is never hampered by the transformation gauge while Lethe suffers dearly for starting in Cat form. Now let's move onto defense. Stefan - Level 8 Swordsman - S Swords Vague Katti: 38 HP, 55 Avo, 5 Dodge, 15 Def, 9 Res Steel Blade: 38 HP, 55 Avo, 5 Dodge, 12 Def, 9 Res Lethe - Level 7 Cat Claws: 39 HP, 51 Avo, 17 Dodge, 15 Def, 11 Res I'm going to be honest here. Yes, Lethe is defensively stronger than Stefan while transformed. But that being said, Stefan is by no means bad at defense. It takes 31 Att to 2HKO the guy at base level if he's not holding the Vague Katti. The first thing that appears with 31 Atk is a Tiger in Chapter 22. That's 7 chapters after Stefan joins. Yeah, this guy has no chance of dying for a while. If you look down the list, the next things to pop up are a Berserker with a Killer Axe (90 Hit) and a Wyvern Lord with a Silver Lance (106 Hit), both in Chapter 24. Stefan faces 25 Hit from the Berserker and 61 Hit from the Wyvern Lord. Keep in mind that this is base level Stefan without the Vague Katti's +3 Def boost. If you give him the Vague Katti, the first listed enemy to be able to 2HKO Stefan is Rikard, the Chapter 24 boss. When the first enemy who can kill you in a minimum of 2 turns is 9 chapters down the road (and has 52 Hit while doing it), you have pretty solid defense. Another thing to note is that Stefan has very acceptable defensive growths of 70 HP/35 Def/30 Res. Lethe has 130 HP/40 Def/25 Res in comparison. Yes, Lethe's HP growth is through the roof but with regards to Def and Res, they're almost equal. Stefan's Def will rise at a pretty steady rate and 55 Avoid is nothing to sneeze at. So in a nutshell, Lethe is slightly better at defense but Stefan isn't bad. On the flip side of that coin, Stefan is awesome at offense while Lethe quickly becomes mediocre thanks to transformation issues. Sure, Swords give Stefan an advantage. Being capable of diving into weapons like the Armorslayer and all is huge. However it is telling that he only wins by 1-2 points with the VK. Now sure, the VK's main advantage is its crit and defense boost. With the VK, Stefan has a 50% critical rate base (before SKL) and he gets +3 DEF on top of it. However, the VK is also one of the strongest swords available. Steel can only surpass 12 MT with a forge and Silver swords aren't available for a long time for purchase. So either Stefan needs forges to beat Lethe's MT, or we need to wait for Lethe's transform gauge to fill up. A 5 turn downtime (that can be shortened if we expose her carefully to enemies) once or twice if things get REALLY slow seems much less a negative to the team than having to spend a forge constantly on Stefan to receive basically the same result. You seem to have this preconceived notion that Stefan needs the Vague Katti to get some sort of offense going. This isn't true at all. See, as I pointed out earlier, Stefan has 19 base Str and a 50% Str growth. Considering that he already doubles every enemy in the game, 30 Atk is actually sufficient to kill most of the enemies you come across until the end of Chapter 24. Two levels and a 2+ forge on a Steel Sword gives that magic number. Since Stefan will hit level 10 after Chapter 17 if you field him (no reason not to if he mauls everything he comes across), we can give him this sword at the start of Chapter 18. With it, he ORKOs everything except for the Paladin reinforcement (leaves with 1 HP if the Paladin holds the Steel Lance and not the Iron Bow) and the Knights/General before Astra and criticals are considered (sadly, Astra can't murder those bastards). Yes, Stefan does indeed ORKO the Ravens. With a Steel Sword forge. Honestly, that's not too much to ask for since the return is an offensive monster. That was my first point. My second is that you're vastly underestimating how bad Lethe's transformation issues are. This isn't RD and Lethe can't down Olivi Grass to stay in Laguz form (she also only has 20 gauge and not 30). After 5 battles, Lethe is in the Beast Tribe class at the beginning of Turn fucking 5. For the later chapters, this is disastrous for her performance. PS: I realized something about that 30 Atk that I mentioned. For Lethe to get to 30 Atk, we have to get her to level 11. Considering how Lethe sees a lot less action than Stefan (blame her limited amount of fighting thanks to the gauge), this will take a lot longer without the use of BExp. And if Lethe needs BExp, something is seriously wrong here. Yes, by the endgame, Stefan will have the advantage as well. Lethe's stats will be as follows: Lethe (Transformed) (Rounded) (Undemied): Level 20. HP: 56. STR: 26-27. MAG: 5 SKL: 25 SPD 27. LCK: 23-24. DEF: 21. RES: 14. While Stefans will be as follows Level 20 HP: 46 STR: 24 MAG: 10.4 SKL: 29 SPD: 30 Luck: 8 DEF: 16 RES: 13. Note, Lethe still wins HP by 10, STR by 2-3. LCK: by 15-16, DEF by 4, and RES by 1. Stefan wins SKL by 4 and SPD by 3. This means that Lethe's avoid is better (15 from luck vs. 6 from SPD) and she is all-around more durable. She only loses to Stefan because Silver Weapons and Silver Forges are now available. Since Silver is unavailable until chapter 23, this pretty much seals Stefan's fate. From chapters 9-22, Lethe will preform better than him, his only victories coming at the cost of forged weapons, while 23 on he will win only because Silver is now readily available. Are you kidding me? You're bringing out Level 20 stats? Dude, this ain't happening for either Lethe or Stefan. ??/16 I can see. Not ??/20. Not on Hard Mode with the severe Exp cut I mentioned earlier. Stefan - Level 16 Swordsman - S Swords Vague Katti: 35 Att, 145 Hit, 29 AS, 64 Crit Silver Sword (Forge 3+ Str): 39 Att, 141 Hit, 29 AS, 29 Crit 43 HP, 65 Avo, 7 Dodge, 14(17) Def, 11 Res Lethe - Level 16 Cat Claws: 32 Att, 134 Hit, 24 AS, 11 Crit 50 HP, 69 Avo, 21 Dodge, 19 Def, 13 Res I find it quite interesting that you go straight from a comparison at Chapter 16 right to Endgame (Chapter 29). What, does the entire 2nd half of the game not exist? Ike only starts wielding Ragnell in Chapter 27.5 but before that, he actually needs help. And you completely forgot to mention that Stefan was kicking Lethe's ass during those 11 chapters. Oh? Lethe is better offensively up to Chapter 22? Well honey, you're wrong. See, you've brought no proof of this point (aside from comparing bases) so it's your word vs... my proven numbers. Not only that, but you assume that Stefan has shitty Str (he doesn't), Astra doesn't exist (it does and connects about 13% of the time at base level) and that giving Stefan a forged sword is a bad idea (it's not because the return on it is incredible). So go back and revise your argument. Try making it correct this time. Anyway, once Endgame comes, you're right. Stefan absolutely destroys Lethe. She barely wins the defensive game but come on, the only things that 2HKO Stefan are the Dragons, Bryce, Ashnard and a Killer Axe warrior with 108 Hit (Stefan faces 33 Hit). As for offense, Lethe, at this point, is a joke. She's got trouble doubling stuff like Paladins and other Cats and can't ORKO anything. Stefan, on the other hand, has reliable Crit with the Vague Katti (or even with a weaker Killing Edge) since he's guaranteed to critical 82% of the time on anything he hits. Everything he looks at is basically ORKO'd or in single digit HP (like Dragons or Generals). This is a very fine performance by the hermit. What about supports? Lethe has the following support options: Ike, Jill, Muarim, and Ranulf. Stefan has the following: Soren, Mordi.On Ike's list, Lethe ranks pretty low. Below Oscar and Soren for sure and possibly Titania as well (depending on how valuable that 1 DEF is). Reyson, Ranulf, and Elincia are below her however, so Lethe has a CHANCE (not a big one but still) for a Ike B. Jill has only three options, and one of those is Haar. Lethe can eek out a B from her easily enough. Likewise, Muarim wouldn't mind a B since his other option is Largo. Ranulf won't likely get the Ike support, leaving him with only two choices. In short, Ike aside, Lethe will likely get a B. If Oscar goes Kieran/Tanith for the mounted advantage and Titania goes Boyd/Mist/Rhys for the attack, Lethe can slip in for a Ike B as well. Assuming a Jill/Muarim duel B, Lethe can net 2 DEF, 10 AVO, and 20 Hit. Stefan only has two support options. Soren and Mordi. Soren wants a B-Ike, and Ike wants a B-Soren at least. Mordi can support Ilyana and Mist over Stefan for better bonuses (+5 defense assuming a A/B with them!). Since both of them want Mordi supports as well, Stefan has to hope neither gets played. Assuming he lucks out, Stefan can net +1 attack, +7.5 AVO, +1 defense and +15 hit from a Soren/Mordi A/B. While Stefan has the stronger supports, they require that Ike not A-support Soren and Ilyana/Mist not be in play, making Lethe's supports better overall. Typical Snowy. You spend two paragraphs on supports and handwave Lethe's biggest problem with a single sentence. There's no point in debating supports if Lethe isn't even in fighting mode for when she's supposed to be facing the majority of a chapter's enemies. In conclusion: Lethe starts off very strong and is the second most powerful character, capable of completing with Titania, when she joins. She remains fairly strong throughout the game and when Stefan joins, he needs either the VK or forged weapons to be capable of competing; both of which are in short supply. It's not until silver weapons come along that he's capable of eeking out ahead. Before then, Lethe's sheer dominance is more than worth those few turns per chapter where she needs to be untransformed. Fail. Stefan's offense is amazing with plain weapons in his hands thanks to his outrageous bases. It's much better than anything that Lethe can hope to accomplish. And on the flip side, Lethe is usually untransformed during the most important part of the midgame's chapters. She's beyond useless since once she untransforms, she's done on that map. There's nothing more she can do. And this happens at the beginning of Turn 5 if she only fights 5 enemies. Stefan is much better than Lethe. Her slight durability lead doesn't mean anything since it's not like Stefan might die and she won't. His offensive is miles and away better than hers and this is assuming no Demi Band reductions. She has four turns of action and then she's done for the chapter while Stefan isn't affected by a gauge of any type. Lethe starts off good but declines quite sharply. When Stefan arrives, he's already better than Lethe and just gets better over time. There is no point in time where the pair exist and Lethe is significantly better than Stefan. And even when Stefan doesn't exist, Lethe isn't as incredibly special as you seem to think. Therefore, Stefan is a much better unit than Lethe. Edited January 20, 2011 by King Russell Hantz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) Posting to inform you that I will be mostly absent tomorrow and a portion of Saturday. I will edit in a reply on Saturday into this post if I have time. Edit: That last line made more than just myself giggle (I even got a PM about it from another user). Snowy, I'm surprised that you'll be able to interpret anything from the way your formatted that shit since I have a hard time reading it. Considering that it takes the cognitive power of a six year old child to be capable of ordering the paragraph I wrote into proper sentences, this does not boost my faith in your ability as a debater. Sure, it took him some time to sound out the hard words, and I needed to tell him what the abbreviations meant, but he understood it just the same. After all, it's not like I am posting cryptically phrased hieroglyphs or latin or something. I have no disagreement with Lethe going south to help out Titania. As much as everyone wishes it was so, Titania is not God and can die.That being said, after saying something smart, did you honestly have to follow it up with an idiotic comment? The beach is free Exp for everyone not named Titania (and Oscar). Why should Lethe EVER be there? Now on the topic of Lethe vs. Titania, you're quite funny. It really doesn't matter if Lethe is faster than Titania. All that matters is that Titania doubles basically everything from 2 range, something that Lethe can't do (2 range, not doubling). At level 3, Titania has 14 AS with a Hand Axe. That doubles... everything of importance with the exception of Kotaff (a couple of myrmidons aren't important). And she hits everything back with an impressive 19 MT from 1~2 range. This is something that Lethe can't do and the fact that you cannot control Lethe's specific actions doesn't help either. If sending her onto the beach is such a problem too you, then don't send her there. I suggested sending her there because Nedata can screw things up easily if he gets out of hand and the group might lose a house if enough things go wrong. But sure, if you don't want to send her there, be my guest. However, if you DO send her there, she doesn't suffer the same movement penalties that Titania would. This means you can send Lethe north and Titania south if you really need too. If you feel it's not needed, then you can send her south. The important thing is that you can choose which way to head. And you're right. Titania IS better than Lethe (overall). I don't think I have ever said otherwise at any point of my life. The only way I can see this even being a issue here is that I was saying that, since Lethe has the option to head onto the beach and move relatively well, she may be arguably the best unit in this chapter due to the added flexability. However, I will admit that I am only looking at it statistically. Technically, Lethe is the second-worst unit in the chapter due to having to be commanded about via the menu system (this would have been a much better point. Why didn't you attack this?). Now, the first mistake you made was the bolded part. First off, this isn't Easy Mode where 8~9 people hit 20/20. This is Hard Mode. And in Hard Mode, there's a severe Exp cut. Check it out.Experience from defeating enemy = (Battle Exp base + [enemy's Power - Power] + Mode bonus + Boss bonus + Thief bonus) x Skill coefficient Mode bonus: 30 for Easy mode, 20 for Normal mode, 15 for Hard mode, 10 for Maniac mode Boss bonus: 30 if enemy is a boss, 40 if enemy is a boss in Easy mode First off... Easy mode and you ONLY got 8-9 people to 20/20? What the frick is wrong with you man? Secondly... If Lethe fought only unpromoted units throughout the game, you might have a point here. However, promoted units do come along, and when they do, the amount of EXP per kill gained is going to jump hugely for Lethe. Now this would be all fine and dandy if we didn't have problem number two. Lethe is considered to be an already promoted unit. She starts off with a base Power of 23. This drastically cuts the amount of Exp she receives from your average mook. And then when you consider that she's not even gaining Exp for half of any given chapter, I have to wonder why you would ever post her ??/20 stats since Lethe isn't maxing out her level without severe BExp help. Lethe joins at level 3 in chapter 10. She needs to level up 17 times in 18 chapters to be ??/20 by the final chapter. She only needs ~94% of a level average per chapter to achieve this. Between chapter 10 and 28, assuming we clear each chapter without a loss of Bexp to turns and achieve no additional goals (no priests or laguz survive and the like) we will have ~10,550 Bexp. Divided evenly among a 14 man team (which I expect to be considered much larger than usual for HM) this means that Lethe gets about 753 Bexp. This is assuming she gets absolutely no additional Bexp from the prior chapters. On a ten-man team she will get 1,005. Assuming she waits until the VERY end to use her Bexp, and gets the most expensive levels, sure, she won't get a lot... On a 14 man team... That waited until the last possible point to give her Bexp (The final two levels of Bexp are FAR more pricy than the first few levels. Lethe needs only 160 Bexp to level up at base level, but 444 to level up her last level). Assuming the player doesn't wait until the last moment to use the Bexp, Lethe will get two level-ups from Bexp. More if we are not using a 14 man team. This means she only needs to level up 15 times in 18 chapters, or net an average of .83 EXP per chapter. This may be hard before chapter 17, yes, but it will become vastly easier after 17. Lethe will likely end up in the 17-19 range with basic use (higher on a smaller team). I would say that that is close enough to assume she will be basically at max-level. Oh and can't forget your calculation mistakes. All fractions are rounded down. Bull. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16443&view=findpost&p=1326439 This is the most recent post with stats in the FE9 tier topic. Boyd at 20/10 has 52.75 HP, not 53 as the post says. Now, sure, maybe this is just Cynthia. Maybe she rounds. That wouldn't disprove your point if no one called her on it. Sure, 1 HP may not matter much in her post, but 1 point of something else is a serious issue (like, say, 1 point of speed). If this were true, I would expect someone would have called Cynthia on it to ensure she doesn't round when the number may actually matter. So I'm calling bull on this. If you want to argue the random variance shit for Luck and Str, Lethe actually has more of a chance of ending the game with 20 Str and 23 Luck instead of 21 Str and 24 Luck. Gotta find the link for it though. Lethe's ??/20 STR is 20.5 with a cap of 26 while her LCK is 23.5 with a cap of 40. Even if you were using the chance to cap instead of the average stat provided here on the site, your statement would be wrong (Okay. Maybe through some funky number counting you could claim she won't get 21 STR due to that cap. However, even then, how does this mean Lethe would be more likely to have 24 Luck then 23? Her cap is so high that it is literally impossible for her to cap it). So yea, I'm going to ask that you use the numbers provided here, on the site, or at least post a link to the site that you got this from. For the record, this isn't even close to the best way to organize the data. But doesn't it look much more readable? No. At best it looks like something that *might* be better but is an acquired taste. In my eyes, it's more annoying to read as the color changes keep bothering me. And the mistakes just start coming.The entire bolded part is incorrect. Lethe won't be fighting Danomill because she will be untransformed long before reaching him. She loses 3 points a turn and 1 point for every single battle. She's at least at 15 after turn 1 (both soldiers attack her to avoid getting mauled by Titania) and reinforcements block her path around Neph's cell. A lot have 2 range (1 Mage, 1 Archer, 2 Knights with Javelins and 1 Halberdier with a Short Spear) and even if Lethe doesn't counter, her gauge still goes down. Lethe will be the first person to reach Danomill. This is a fact and I won't deny it. But will she still be in Cat mode by the time she gets there? I seriously doubt it and I'm not the only one here. Maybe she used a Laguz Gem? Maybe she got exposed to enough attacks to transform again? Maybe the player REALLY wanted that seal and decided to wait? It really doesn't matter. The point is that Danomill is the hardest foe in the chapter in which Lethe joins and is capable of making even Titania be careful around him. Yet if she were to fight him, she is capable of almost taking him down without any outside assistance, which is really saying something. With regard to Blood Runs Red, it should be noted that after Lethe beats up on level 1 and 2 Myrmidons (which is like racing a kid in a wheelchair) and recruits Zihark, her role in the map is done. Mackoya has a 2 range weapon in an Iron Bow and a 1 range killer in the Laguzslayer. Lethe ain't going near that guy. I won't deny that she won't be going near the boss... well... Actually... Assuming we don't send her to get Zihark (ignoring him or having Mordi get him), she might be useful. I would rather have the boss use 1 ranged attack on someone during the enemy phase (we can keep softies out of range) then pounce on him without fear of being countered on the player phase. If that happens, then Lethe will be highly useful. However, I don't think that people who are willing to consider passing up Zihark or field two Laguz for this chapter are in a majority... anywhere... And I would be lying if I didn't say I pretty much dock Lethe/Zihark in the upper-right after Zihark gets recruited. In A Strange Land and A Guiding Ring, you severely overrate Lethe's fighting ability. Lethe has 26 Att against Ravens and doubles... oh wait, she doesn't. She needs 17 AS to double the Level 2 Raven and it's the only one with 13 AS. 17 AS means Level 6. Considering that fucking Titania isn't going to be at level 6 and is a much better unit to pump BExp into (1~2 range with the Hand Axe), you can forget Lethe doubling Ravens in either of these chapters. Lethe is also one of the few people who doesn't get doubled. IIRC, less than 5 people can claim that, and of those only Lethe and Titania can claim any significant degree of durability against the ravens. Mordi is untransformed and gets doubled, the generals get doubled, and pretty much everyone else is in danger. Sure, Lethe may not double them, but she still preforms admirably against them. Most defiantly the second-best unit on the map in those chapters. On a side note, Lethe does 2HKO most of the Ravens in both chapters. However, she's not the only one. Any sword user needs 8 Str to do the same (and hold the Laguzslayer) so Ike, Mia and Zihark all exist in that category and tie or better Lethe's offense. 11 Str along with the Killer Lance nails a OHKO on a Raven which is something that Titania has. Level 15 Oscar and Level 13 Marcia (very unlikely for Oscar but Marcia is possible) also replicate the OHKO but the important thing here is that a single critical hit with the Killer Lance is a 2HKO. This has a 33% chance of happening per hit with the critical . You have exactly 1 killer lance at this point in the game and one killing edge. This means you have two units who have a 66% chance of killing these ravens. Sure, that's more than 50% and on average they will kill them, but there is still a 33% chance that they will fail. People dock Mia's critical hit chances as 'unreliable' for less. Lethe's offense here isn't really something to be proud of since she's supposed to be this killer machine and other non-Titania units are just as good at Raven killing. Then what is to be proud of? Kieran can match Muarim's MT with a forged steel axe, so is Muarim's attack on joining suddenly NOT impressive? Just because a single unit can kill a raven while using a rare weapon doesn't mean that Lethe's ability to go toe-to-toe with them and make it out fairly well and reliably 2HKO them is suddenly not impressive. I also love how you conveniently left Chapter 14 off the list. Is this because of by the time that Lethe gets to Gashilama, she's untransformed? Oh dear, you should really mention this major hiccup in Lethe's performances since once Stefan joins, it just gets magnified. I left 14 out since it is such a laughably joke compared to the two chapters preceding it. Not only are your units freshly leveled off the ravens, but the only things that can even be considered problems in this chapter are Gash's tendency to walk on water and the fog. Lethe is still very strong in this chapter to be sure. It's just less pronounced now that the group is facing enemies that are easier, less numerous, and they are much stronger themselves. First off, learn how to use [.code][./code]. Seriously. I can't read half of that shit. If your gameplan was to blind me with the sheer amount of numbers in a paragraph, congrats, it's working. My plan was to blind you with awesomeness, and failing that, gratuitous male nudity. So... Yay for you? I guess? Now onto your points. Let's start with offense. Stefan absolutely murders Lethe in it thanks to his incredible bases (before Astra). I'll give Lethe level 7 for the sake of the comparison but I don't see how she's getting there (she hits level 4 in Chapter 12, 5 in 14 and 6 if she's lucky by the end of 15). Too be honest, it REALLY doesn't matter that much. Come next chapter, both are preforming very well. Stefan may have access to the Katti, but even with it, he's not winning by all that much. Against anything that isn't a knight, I think it's a fairly safe assumption to say that both will be killing reliably and that this behavior will persist at roughly this level until silver becomes purchasable for Stefan. As for how Lethe is level 7... Well first off I kinda went male on this and picked a nice, round, even number that looked about right. It was a choice between 8 and 6. Had I thought it through more I would have picked 6. It wouldn't have mattered that much though since the difference between the two in STR is 1 point for Lethe and she was already more than fast enough. Fuck. Stefan is so good that it's scary. Before we consider Astra, Stefan flat out beats Lethe in AS (doubling absolutely everything barring a couple of SMs between now and Endgame) and Att. Also, consider these three important points.1. 19 Str means that Stefan cannot lose AS from a single weapon in this game. This is his BASE Str, mind you. Toss a 50% growth rate onto that and you have an offensive machine 1) And this matters... why? By the time Stefan comes around, most units are getting up there. Most of the sword-users have enough STR or SPD so that they can wield anything and still double more or less reliably. Sure, Ike may fail to double a soldier while wielding the armorslayer, but you won't be equipping that to fight one. In two chapters your units will be promoting anyways. By 18, AS loss will be a non-issue unless you are Mist/Elincia trying to wield the Runesword (Weight 19) 2) Astra sucks. 2. S Swords gives him access to every sword in the game. It also means that he's the sole wielder of the Vague Katti for a long time, if not the rest of the game. Ike will never use it since he gets Ragnell in the second half of 27 and the game becomes more like an interactive cutscene at that point. Zihark and Mia might fight for it but they still need to hit S Swords first and Stefan's 19 base Str and 28 base Crit probably utilizes the Vague Katti better than either of them (if you start Mia love, I will fucking blast you for it since Stefan has no chance of being RNG screwed).Now there is one thing that ties Lethe and Stefan. No 1~2 range. That being said, Stefan can take a shot at the Sonic Sword since he does have 8 base Mag. Is he the prime choice for the sword? No. But does it give him the option of 1~2 range? Yes. Can Lethe ever have 1~2 range? No. 1) So... Yay? Silver doesn't come about in force until chapter 23. I believe there is only one Silver Blade between the time Stefan joins and the time Silver can just be bought. Of the mono-sword users, once they promote, they will hit A swords fairly quickly. After all, it's their only weapon. 2) The VK has exactly 25 uses. Assuming we hammerine it, that's only 24 times he can use it between 16 and 22. An average of 4 times per chapter. I'll be gracious and assume that that is 3 kills average instead of 2. That's still not terribly impressive. Especially since the main point of the VK is the critical boost, not the raw damage. 3) Regardless of how well Stefan uses the VK, the best use for it will always be on someone with wrath. Even if that person ends up being Stefan, that means he won't touch the VK until chapter 19. 4) Astra sucks. I wouldn't even let the VK in Stefan's inventory while he had it for fear of fates conspiring against me and him Astraing with it equipped. 5) And depwinve pwecious widdle Mist of her Swonic Sword? GASP! Isn't that, like, a crime in fifteen states? Also, I find it funny that you are getting mad and threatening to blast me for it, yet are then turning around and using one of the main arguments I have for using her to try and argue Stefan up. Either way, the SS doesn't come until 18. Stefan needs wrath to make the combo work, and he'd probably need both dusts and the mage band (it works for Mia because she can manage to net roughly 16-18 MAG with the dusts or band and her supports. Stefan's got 16 at MOST (and I have to round up for that!) with BOTH the dusts and band at 20/20 and gets only 1 attack from supports. If Mia got that same degree of treatment, she would have 23 MAG (33 with the SS). Now I'm not saying that this should or shouldn't be done or anything of the sort. What I will say is that to make the SS work you are going to have to devote the mage band and both dusts... Hey wait a sec... In order to make this work, Stefan would need the VK, both dusts and the band, wrath (critical to ensure kills at 2-range and to boost up his crit for the VK). If he wants to make the SS or VK last long enough to do anything significant, he's going to need Hammerine uses as well... Don't people usually jump all over me for suggesting Mia gets half these things? Nah. I'm imagining things. 3. Stefan's offense is consistent while Lethe's is not. See, I've been mentioning Lethe's transformation issues here and there but it's time to get down to the nitty gritty of it. Lethe starts off with a full Laguz gauge. If she does no fighting and lets it run out normally, she will transform back on Turn 7. Two fights of any kind knocks this number down to Turn 6. An additional three fights makes Lethe revert on Turn 5, giving her only 4 turns of offense.You see where I'm going with this? The more combat Lethe sees, the less time she has to be effective. All it takes is 5 fights between Turn 1 and the end of Enemy Turn 4 to revert Lethe back into her mewing little pussy stage. And Lethe doesn't even have to attack for the gauge to go down. Hell, she could be targeted by a ballista and she'd still lose points. 1) I won't deny it. Lethe does have to work around a transform gauge. But you see, there ARE ways around it! It is completely possible for her to enter into the stage undemied and then just equip the band when she reverts. Or she can use a gem. Yes. I know. Reyson uses them far better. This doesn't mean it can just be ignored. 2) Check the numbers. While untransformed Lethe gains 4 per turn and 2 if she enters into battle. While transformed she loses 3 per turn and only 1 per battle. Now, I won't deny that having a untransformed laguz on the field is a bad thing. However, Lethe will be spending far more turns on the field transformed than not. But that's unacceptable? Well... Brace yourselves for this... Then let her get attacked. That's ridiculous! Retarded! Insane! Right? Well, no. I'm not suggesting that we dangle Lethe out like Chris Hanson dangles fake pre-teens in front of people online. However, hear me out. One of the assumptions we have regarding backliners is that, no matter how good the player is, at some point, your mages/healers/others will get attacked as enemies slip by. This is part of why durability is still important to them. So... Why not let Lethe hang out around them and use her to either block or bait any foes that will get by? Sure, we may lose a enemy-phase kill or two, but most of the backliners are frail. You don't want them being attacked at all. Lethe is much more durable than them and has the advantage of being basically the perfect bait for those foes who do slip through. Before you go all nutzo, I'm not suggesting we intentionally let foes through. What I am suggesting is keeping Lethe around there so that she can serve as a magnet for those that do get through. Less risky than letting one of them hit a mage/healer. 3) Even when unshifted, Lethe doesn't suddenly become useless. She can still shove/smite units around. With her great weight, a shove is very likely to happen, which is useful. 4) Astra still blows huge chunks. --- 16 - Most of the fighting takes place near the throne room and by now, we're already at Turn 6 or 7. Lethe's useless here. Stefan 1-0.17 - Good chapter for Lethe. Stefan 2-1. 18 - Once again, most of the fighting is near Kayachey since before him, all we really have are like 2 Knights and a Warrior. Stefan 3-1. 19 - Another good chapter for Lethe. Stefan 4-2. 20 - The heavy fighting begins on Turn 4 (the first turn that we can actually hit the Wyvern reinforcements) and then lasts right through until we hit Shiharam. Lethe detransforms too early. Stefan 5-2. 21 - "lol". This chapter is way too big for Lethe to do anything of worthwhile. Hell, she might even transform her second time before she sees any combat (since she can't fight as Beast Tribe). Stefan 6-2. 22 - It's generally one turned since Calill can turn Schaeffer into roast beef. So Lethe's transformation on Turn 1 means squat. Stefan 6-2. 23 - Most of the fighting is at the tail end of the bridge, right with Petrine. That's at least 6 turns in. Stefan 7-2. 24 - Lethe can get in a couple of shots before she transforms if she goes north but doing that means that she's doing a job anyone can do (beating a Berserker and 2 Bandits). Going West has her losing Cat form before facing down Rikard. Stefan 8-2. 25 - Most of the units sit at the top of the slope. A bunch are on the way to the top guys so Lethe might get in a fight or two but she's useless when the majority of the enemies fight the army. Stefan 9-2. 16: There is still plenty of fighting happening leading up to the throne room. Just because the heaviest fighting happens there doesn't mean that the other fighting is suddenly not-heavy or worthless. Tie. 1-1. 17: Indeed. Tie. 2-2 18: Most of the fighting is going to be delicately luring Naesalsa out to get his ravens to leave and the KR. At most this takes 3-4 turns, after which it's just a curb-stomp fight. Lethe may shift out by the boss, but by that point, the heaviest fighting is already done (and you wouldn't have her or Stefan fight the guy anyway if possible). Tie. 3-3 19: Actually better for Lethe than Stefan. By this point you have access to the KR. I won't say you should give it to Lethe, but I will say that, if movement is what you value, it will go to a laguz. Unless you're fielding the hawks, that's three people left. Whichever one doesn't have the demi will at least have a crack at this. Still, I'll call it a tie. 4-4. 20: Firstly, the wyverns come on turn 3 (Lethe is still shifted). Secondly, the hardest fighting is on the way up the hill, not when the reinforcements show up. In fact, I'm partially tempted to say Lethe has a advantage since she can convert Jill if the player fails, but that's a newbie-mistake. 5-5 21: Actually, this map can be finished very swiftly via rescuing and dropping over the moat. Lethe actually has the legit advantage here since her ability to shove/smite helps the team get into position for a swift clear of both the boss and rooms than Stefan. That's not to say that he's useless, but whoever is smiting will be a far better help here. 5-6. 22: If you want Stefan to be wielding the SS, you are going to have to get the dust here. No one-turn clear if you do that. But surely, the idea of someone not named Mist using it is so stupid as to make this negligible. 23: And at the other tail end you have Haar popping up with his wyvern buddies. Plus with mines on the bridge, extra movement is very useful for getting around them (if you know where they are) or getting around the ones that went off (if you don't). Both Lethe and Stefan fail against Petrine though, Lethe harder, but still... Silver at last. Stefan wins. 6-6. 24: If we're going to be talking about jobs that anyone else can do, then Stefan shouldn't have any points at all after 18 (when Zihark and Mia have likely promoted, as have the rest of the team). Also, facing Rikard is tough due to the sheer numbers around him. If the team does head west, even if she shifts out, her help will be appreciated simply due to helping to thin them down. Stefan wins though due to silver. 7-6. 25: This is a fliers map and you still gave the point to Stefan? 7-6. Okay. I will admit, I am likely being biased. I'm giving Lethe points even though she is not in the heaviest of the fighting. However, if we are assuming a minimum-turn push, why are we assuming that Stefan will see that much fighting when the paladins and fliers will be heading in first? Even if he does why should Lethe lose the point just because she wasn't around for the thickest of the fighting? There is more to each chapter than just the final heavy fight and being able to help out in those areas still counts for something. --- Notice that Lethe has only 2 chapter where her early transformation time is a lot more help than hurt. In the rest of the cases, she's basically dead weight and should be yanked out for someone who's actually useful, like Stefan for instance. Also note that I gave Stefan a point for every chapter that wasn't 22. That's because Stefan's offense is always constant and he doesn't have stupid shit like Transformation killing it. If Stefan and Lethe were in a boxing match, Lethe would be George Forman pounding away at Ali's torso but wearing herself out quickly while doing nothing significant. Then Stefan Ali would beat the shit out of her from Round 7 onwards since he's still got energy left in the tank. I call it the Rope-a-Shitty-Unit strategy. So in other words, you set up a system in which Stefan would win by default and gave him points without considering that he may not be able to fight in the chapter, then docked Lethe points just because she wouldn't be involved in the 'heaviest' fighting? How about this. You run a race against me. Every checkpoint, I get a full minute off my time, but in order for you to get half a minute off yours you have to pass it in less time than I passed mine. Oh. And you have to run with weights on your leg. This is the most biased comparison possible short of saying 'Lethe is a woman and should not be out of the kitchen'. No where is this more evident than in how you gave Stefan a point in chapter 25 even though the fliers are going to be the ones seeing most of the combat there and anyone else will be lucky to escape without being flattened by a boulder. If anyone other than the fliers fights (without a siege tome) it will likely be high-movement foot soldiers... exactly like Lethe. Heck. I don't even see your proof that Lethe is shifting out. Assuming she loses 5 power per turn (that's two fights every turn. One player, one enemy) she's going until turn four easily enough. If, for any reason at all, she misses ONE of those battles, she makes it to turn 5. Of the chapters you listed only three have a minimum turn count greater then 10 (two of which are 12s). I can fairly safely say she is fighting at full capacity for at least HALF of each chapter before she needs to gem/demi. 18 is going to be drawing Naesala out and after he leaves it's such a heavy curbstomping that it doesn't matter if Lethe won't be undemied by the time you reach the boss or not, and she won't even be involved in fights before he leaves most likely anyways! YEESH! Talk about a biased argument! I'm going to be honest here. Yes, Lethe is defensively stronger than Stefan while transformed. But that being said, Stefan is by no means bad at defense He is the only character in the game whom normal enemies get a critical rate on. --- It takes 31 Att to 2HKO the guy at base level if he's not holding the Vague Katti. The first thing that appears with 31 Atk is a Tiger in Chapter 22. That's 7 chapters after Stefan joins. Yeah, this guy has no chance of dying for a while. He's the only character in the game whom normal enemies get a critical rate on. Also 2HKO's aren't the only threat. What about a 3HKO? Even with both Mist and Rhys popping Physics, that's only two heals per turn. Four if you want Soren and Ilyana/Tormod also healing (if they are in range). I'm not going to say that he won't be healed, but it is also not impossible for him to go down because he was at 2/3rds health and you figured he wouldn't need the heal either and decided to put it elsewhere. Not to mention Stefan needs to be wielding the VK to match Lethe's defense. I would be shocked if you couldn't see the problem with that. Namely that the VK is a one-of-a-kind sword (being wielded by a guy with a skill that's pretty much made for breaking one-of-a-kind swords no less). If you look down the list, the next things to pop up are a Berserker with a Killer Axe (90 Hit) and a Wyvern Lord with a Silver Lance (106 Hit), both in Chapter 24. Stefan faces 25 Hit from the Berserker and 61 Hit from the Wyvern Lord. Keep in mind that this is base level Stefan without the Vague Katti's +3 Def boost. If you give him the Vague Katti, the first listed enemy to be able to 2HKO Stefan is Rikard, the Chapter 24 boss. When the first enemy who can kill you in a minimum of 2 turns is 9 chapters down the road (and has 52 Hit while doing it), you have pretty solid defense. And if characters could only die from attacks that could 2HKO them, you would have a pretty solid argument. Unfortunately, they don't, and you don't either. Sides, apply the same standard to Lethe. She doesn't have to worry about a foe who can 2HKO her either until Rikard. That's a pretty solid defense, no? --- Another thing to note is that Stefan has very acceptable defensive growths of 70 HP/35 Def/30 Res. Lethe has 130 HP/40 Def/25 Res in comparison. Yes, Lethe's HP growth is through the roof but with regards to Def and Res, they're almost equal. Stefan's Def will rise at a pretty steady rate and 55 Avoid is nothing to sneeze at. Indeed. So in a nutshell, Lethe is slightly better at defense but Stefan isn't bad. On the flip side of that coin, Stefan is awesome at offense while Lethe quickly becomes mediocre thanks to transformation issues. Try: Lethe is better than Stefan at both offense and defense until silver weapons come around. Once they do, he finally surpasses her. However, by that time, the damage has already been done and Lethe wins overall. You seem to have this preconceived notion that Stefan needs the Vague Katti to get some sort of offense going. This isn't true at all. Going by your own numbers that you posted, Stefan needs at least a Iron Blade to tie Lethe in damage. Otherwise he's losing. Also, your numbers... were skewed. Lethe should have 18 AS, not 17, but I digress... By the end of chapter 15 your mymerdions will likely be only 1-2 points faster than Lethe, so she's still doing well. That's not the point. Yes, Stefan has more AS. It doesn't matter. Lethe doubles pretty much everything still. Stefan doesn't *need* the VK, no. It doesn't matter. Even demied, Lethe still manages 25 MT (14 base + 3 transform +8 claws). Yes, she loses by 3 MT (2 if he's using a steel sword), but compare that to a level 18 Kieran who, while wielding a steel axe... has 25 MT! Kieran. Wielding a Steel Axe. Has the same MT as a demied Lethe. A unit faster and tougher than him with equal movement. Sure, he has forges and handaxes, but that is still impressive. You seem to have this preconceived notion that Lethe needs to be undemied to get some sort of offense going. This isn't true at all. --- See, as I pointed out earlier, Stefan has 19 base Str and a 50% Str growth. Considering that he already doubles every enemy in the game, 30 Atk is actually sufficient to kill most of the enemies you come across until the end of Chapter 24. Lethe has an identical STR growth rate and starts the game with 18 STR undemied. By the time Stefan rolls around, she is pumping out numbers that, while less than what Stefan offers, are still on-par with your best units. Constantly. Two levels and a 2+ forge on a Steel Sword gives that magic number. Since Stefan will hit level 10 after Chapter 17 if you field him (no reason not to if he mauls everything he comes across), So Stefan is allowed to get two level-ups in two chapters (one being 17 admittedly) but Lethe isn't permitted to get 17 level-ups in 18 chapters? 19 chapters if we flesh 17 into two? Despite that she's one of the best against the ravens and your second best unit on the field? While Stefan is allowed to 'maul everything he comes across'? we can give him this sword at the start of Chapter 18. With it, he ORKOs everything except for the Paladin reinforcement (leaves with 1 HP if the Paladin holds the Steel Lance and not the Iron Bow) and the Knights/General before Astra and criticals are considered (sadly, Astra can't murder those bastards). Yes, Stefan does indeed ORKO the Ravens. With a Steel Sword forge. Honestly, that's not too much to ask for since the return is an offensive monster. Why the **** do you have Astra on Stefan? SERIOUSLY! The skill sucks! REMOVE IT! Also, why only a +2 forge? No. Seriously. Why only a +2 forge? It's only ~2800 gold extra to max it out from a basic level. Why not just jump it all the way to +5? I wanna know. Also, are you referring to Naesala's ravens? The ones we DON'T want to kill? That was my first point. My second is that you're vastly underestimating how bad Lethe's transformation issues are. This isn't RD and Lethe can't down Olivi Grass to stay in Laguz form (she also only has 20 gauge and not 30). After 5 battles, Lethe is in the Beast Tribe class at the beginning of Turn fucking 5. For the later chapters, this is disastrous for her performance. Demiband. Seriously. It exists. Lethe can use it. Why do you seem to automatically assume she couldn't possibly touch it? Lethe, Mordi, and Muarim are all in four spaces of each other on the tier list and there is no reason to assume that any one of them has such a monopoly on it as to shut the other two out. PS: I realized something about that 30 Atk that I mentioned. For Lethe to get to 30 Atk, we have to get her to level 11. Considering how Lethe sees a lot less action than Stefan (blame her limited amount of fighting thanks to the gauge), this will take a lot longer without the use of BExp. And if Lethe needs BExp, something is seriously wrong here. Lethe and Stefan have the right to a equal amount of EXP. Also, demiband ruins your gauge argument. I find it quite interesting that you go straight from a comparison at Chapter 16 right to Endgame (Chapter 29). What, does the entire 2nd half of the game not exist? Ike only starts wielding Ragnell in Chapter 27.5 but before that, he actually needs help. And you completely forgot to mention that Stefan was kicking Lethe's ass during those 11 chapters. At chapter 23, silver becomes available. Lethe is stuck using what is basically a steel weapon. Naturally from 23-on Stefan is going to pull ahead of her as he was able to upgrade his tech. I figured that it wasn't worth mentioning because anyone who was familiar with the game would know that, when silver came, all laguz spiral down in usefulness. Oh? Lethe is better offensively up to Chapter 22? Well honey, you're wrong. See, you've brought no proof of this point (aside from comparing bases) so it's your word vs... my proven numbers. Before Stefan joins, Lethe is one of the three best characters in the game. After Stefan joins, she has access to the demiband, manages to still put out numbers identical to a steel-axe wielding paladin, and has movement on par with said paladin baring the move-again function. I say that pretty solidly thwomps Stefan's doubling (which doesn't really matter as Lethe's almost as fast as your mymerdions) and attack (which, while impressive, is not the most essential thing to a efficient play through). Better movement, solid attack, yea. I would say that's better. Not only that, but you assume that Stefan has shitty Str (he doesn't), Don't recall saying he had that. Astra doesn't exist (it does and connects about 13% of the time at base level) Dude. Seriously. I'm going to stop this right here. Astra sucks. It sucks so bad that anyone planning to use Stefan seriously will unequip it as the first thing they do when they get him. Assume for a moment you are going up against a foe. You crit on your first attack, and follow up with a second. With your two attacks, you have dealt four attacks worth of damage. A 2:1 ratio. Assume Astra activates. I will be gracious and assume you critical on EVERY hit! You have dealt 7.5 attacks worth of damage in 5 attacks, or 1.5:1 ratio. That right there speaks for itself. With a 50% critical ratio, you can beat a 100% critical ratio with three more attacks too it JUST because Astra activated! If the first example had a similar critical rate, it would have had a 3:1 damage:weapon use ratio! In the space of two attacks, it would have dealt the same damage Astra did in four! 'but it stops draining uses after it kills' you whine back. Yea. So? Assume you have a enemy that would be 2HKO'ed. Normally, you would kill them in two attacks. If Astra activates on the first attack, you deal .5 damage. YOUR BEST CASE SCENARIO AT THIS POINT IS A CRITICAL! That would give you the 2HKO. However, this only has between a 15-25% chance of happening with a swordmaster without a KE or wrath. In other words, you're almost guaranteed to waste another sword strike just to deal the same amount of damage you would have dealt anyways. Astra sucks. The only way it could possibly offer an advantage is if Stefan got a 100% Crit rate and assaulted something with a load of HP. I don't think it's even possible to get 100% and still have Astra on. So yea. Astra. Bad. and that giving Stefan a forged sword is a bad idea (it's not because the return on it is incredible). So go back and revise your argument. Try making it correct this time. I didn't say giving him a forged sword was a bad idea. Allow me to elaborate. You get only one forged weapon per chapter. Yes, every character has a right to forges and so forth. I'm not disputing that. What I am saying is that forges are a limited resource. If Stefan needs a limited resource to match what Lethe is literally doing for free, then there is something wrong. Stefan may yield the higher return, but he also has the higher cost. Efficiency isn't just about the return, but about cost as well. Lethe's cost is VERY low. That's part of the reason she is so high on the tier lists. For the first half of the game, you can basically neglect her, then throw her into the fray on a whim and have her preform well. You don't even have to buy her weapons. However, for Stefan, I do. So far you've suggested having him take the VK and the SS (plus related goods) and now a forge as soon as he comes on top of that. No one is arguing that Stefan is good! Part of the reason I haven't talked about the post-23 chapters is because there is nothing to talk about. It's already over. Stefan's return in those chapters far exceeds the cost, while Lethe's return is drastically lower so even with her reduced cost she isn't doing that well. Yes, Stefan's not as good in those chapters as you are trying to make him seem, and Lethe's not as bad, but that's not going to change the verdict of who is better there! Just the magnitude of the win. Anyway, once Endgame comes, you're right. Stefan absolutely destroys Lethe. She barely wins the defensive game but come on, the only things that 2HKO Stefan are the Dragons, Bryce, Ashnard and a Killer Axe warrior with 108 Hit (Stefan faces 33 Hit). As for offense, Lethe, at this point, is a joke. She's got trouble doubling stuff like Paladins and other Cats and can't ORKO anything. Stefan, on the other hand, has reliable Crit with the Vague Katti (or even with a weaker Killing Edge) since he's guaranteed to critical 82% of the time on anything he hits. Everything he looks at is basically ORKO'd or in single digit HP (like Dragons or Generals). This is a very fine performance by the hermit. It's not that bad. Lethe manages to hit 24 AS somewhere at 18-19 if she's demied. 16 if undemied. Sure, that's not perfect, but that's right about where other units, like Boyd and Oscar and Kieran will be. Her problem is that she's stuck wielding steel-level weapons. She can still be useful against things with lower defenses, though yes, she isn't that good here. Oh. Stefan has 24 STR at this point as well. That's not really that exceptional, especially when other units have axes on him (WTD FTL) or are mono-sword, but have better skills/supports (Aether/Ragnell, Earth/thunder support, or Vantage/wrath). Sure, he beats Lucia as a swordmaster though! Also, 82% critical rate? Where the heck are you pulling that number from? Is that for one strike? Two? Failstara? Typical Snowy. You spend two paragraphs on supports and handwave Lethe's biggest problem with a single sentence. There's no point in debating supports if Lethe isn't even in fighting mode for when she's supposed to be facing the majority of a chapter's enemies. Yes. Because Lethe is the only character who benefits from her supports, Lethe will never fight in combat just because she might shift out during or just before the heaviest fighting and there is never any heavy fighting beforehand, the demiband doesn't exist, and the fact that Stefan has only one support that is even happening and is pretty weak at that while Lethe can get +2 defense to add to her durability lead. You didn't even spot the blatant math error I made here. That's pretty bad. Heck, considering how long my post was, two paragraphs was understating how important supports are! Fail. Stefan's offense is amazing with plain weapons in his hands thanks to his outrageous bases. Oh. No. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Stefan's offense is bad or that he is somehow 'worse' than Lethe after he joins in terms of sheer offensive might. What I AM saying is that it's not quite as good as you think. Yes, his attack power is likely roughly equal to Boyd's and he has the speed to double pretty much everything. However, Lethe is still fast enough to manage to double very reliably (At level 7, she has 14.8 SPD, 15 rounded, and 18 shifted. At level 15 both Mia and Zihark have 18 SPD as well, Titania doesn't have 18 SPD until she reaches level 10 without the KW, and Volke doesn't have 18 SPD until he's almost promoted. These are the fastest characters available at this point aside from Stefan. Lethe's SPD is certainly more than enough to double reliably). Her MT is still highly impressive (28 at level 7. Boyd with a Steel axe and no supports has 26, 27 with a WTA. Titania at level 8 also has 26 with a steel axe unsupported and without the WTA). Sure she is incapable of touching 1-2 range, but the only way Stefan is touching the SS is if he gets both dusts and the mage band, and even then he needs wrath to make it work and he's STILL only got 26 MT. 33 if you want to do that difference between DEF and RES thingy. The RS doesn't come until so late in the game it can't really help him out either. Sure, she can't touch forges, but she also has no weapon cost at all for her either. It's much better than anything that Lethe can hope to accomplish. Lethe is one of three units who has 9 movement until your units promote; of which one of them (Mordi) doesn't shift until much later on in the fight. In the early game, her combat is second only to Titania. Due to her ability to transform early, move ahead with lightning speed, double better than almost any other unit, and still manage to hit hard she is outright crucial for a swift and efficient playthrough of any chapter in the early game in which she can be fielded. Even when she starts to cool off in the midgame, she is still competing on-par with some of your fastest and best units and doing so with 9 movement. It's not until the lategame that she cools off, and even then that is more because she is stuck wielding what is basically a steel sword without a Weapon Triangle in chapters when silver weapons and special weapons have started to become more of the norm. This is outright invaluable for efficiency, and why Lethe is better than Stefan. And on the flip side, Lethe is usually untransformed during the most important part of the midgame's chapters. She's beyond useless since once she untransforms, she's done on that map. There's nothing more she can do. And this happens at the beginning of Turn 5 if she only fights 5 enemies. Demiband. Yes, Lethe using it means Muarim and Mordi can't use it and all that jazz. Mordi is honestly hampered by it severely though due to it hurting his already low speed stat. That leaves Muarim. Yes, Muarim is superior overall to Lethe. However, even so, he is not superior enough to Lethe to outright force her to not be able to take the band at all. Not to mention that it is possible for Lethe to take the demiband and use it when she shifts out. Muarim shifts into his combat form in four or so turns without combat, meaning you get Lethe fighting at full power for several turns, and by the end of said turns Muarim coming in at full power while Lethe is fighting at a slightly reduced, but still potent, level. That is the best of both worlds there. A full-power Lethe at the beginning to speed up the early parts of the chapter, followed by Lethe fighting at what Muarim's level would have been anyways with the demi, but a full-powered Muarim on top of that. If you are a stinker for some 'one non-Reyson laguz only' rule, then consider that Muarim's main advantage over Lethe is that his durability allows him to be used into the late game. However, Lethe's main advantage is her early and mid game. Too be technical, it's not impossible for a player to use Lethe until about chapter 23, then switch to Muarim and get him up to scratch via Bexp. Sure, it will take a lot. 1,471 Bexp by my count to level him up to 15. On a smaller team, that won't be as much of an issue if we are assuming every unit gets an equal amount of Bexp though. He gets 669 on a ten man team just from the Bexp between 16 and 22 (assuming all ravens escape and no priests die and you make the turn count). If he hasn't been used at all, that's enough to get him up to level 12 right there and leaves only 802 Bexp to go. That's a rough average of 89 Bexp from every other unit, which isn't as bad as it seems when you realize that this Bexp assumption is assuming ten combat units. Reyson and healers can perform fairly well without Bexp, and thusly need it less, meaning that ten mean team is actually between seven and eight actual fighting units. Stefan is much better than Lethe. Her slight durability lead doesn't mean anything since it's not like Stefan might die and she won't. His offensive is miles and away better than hers and this is assuming no Demi Band reductions. It doesn't really matter. Lethe's offense is still better than most units present due to her being able to hit like powerful melee attackers like Boyd and Kieran, but having the speed of a swordmaster. On top of it she has high movement and is very durable for that point in the game. Being more powerful doesn't mean much if your opponent is already more than strong enough to handle most things that come her way. At that point Lethe's movement becomes a much greater edge than Stefan's potential offensive advantage. Notice I said 'potential'? This is because Stefan needs to use a rare, one of a kind sword (with Astra on it sounds like from your argument) in order to beat her. Using unmodified weapons, his attack only manages to tie with hers. In order to beat her, he needs to use either forges or irreplaceable swords, and the Hammerine is still several chapters away (and only has 3 uses). She has four turns of action and then she's done for the chapter while Stefan isn't affected by a gauge of any type. 1) She can use the demiband and/or Laguz gems as well to aid her. 2) Where is your proof that this is true? Even assuming only four turns of action, she would be back into the fray on turn 9 assuming she never got attacked at all. Can you prove she won't be attacked or that, even if she does get attacked, it won't matter? 3) Who is to say that those 4 turns won't matter at all anyways? It's not like there are no enemies present at the start of the chapter or, somehow, the first four turns don't count for squat. She can still net quite a few kills on her own (you seem to be assuming she gets more than 5). For example, on chapter 20, there are ~38-40 enemies on the map total. Assuming 11 combat units, in order to pull their weight every unit would need to get only ~3.5 kills. You would need a ten-man team with two healers and Reyson to get it to a point where Lethe netting 5 kills might somehow not be pulling her weight. Even then it could be argued that she is still doing so; except that she is capable of doing so with movement that allows her to stay up on the front lines with the paladins. Stefan cannot claim that. Lethe starts off good but declines quite sharply. When Stefan arrives, he's already better than Lethe and just gets better over time. There is no point in time where the pair exist and Lethe is significantly better than Stefan. Any time before chapter 23, Lethe has more movement than Stefan and is more durable than him. For a few chapters after he joins, Lethe's still capable of pushing out numbers in both MT and AS equal to some of the stronger and faster members around. Even if she dropped under them slightly, she would still be stronger than your speedsters, and faster than your powerhitters. Combined with superior movement, better supports, and better defenses and I would say that Lethe is better than Stefan for quite some time. And even when Stefan doesn't exist, Lethe isn't as incredibly special as you seem to think. Therefore, Stefan is a much better unit than Lethe. Lethe is the only non-Titania unit to have 9 movement until promotions start happening. Without Lethe, Zihark and Stefan have a harder time joining the party (Zihark has to fight off the mercs and Mordi moves slower due to being unshifted and has to deal with the units around where Stefan is without being shifted). Lethe is one of the few characters who can last for any degree of time against the ravens in chapter 12 and 13, as well as one of the few who can land respectable hits on them (even Ike/Mia/Zihark need the Laguzslayer, so you can only have one of them hitting). She's fighting at a level superior to, or on par with some of the best units in the team until after Stefan joins, and continues to do so for a time. When she does become obsolete, it is because of silver weapons. Not a failing on her part. She supports two good units, Jill and Muarim, as well as being a potential fill-in for Ike if Oscar goes Kieran/Tanith and Titania goes Boyd/Rhys/Mist. Stefan lacks Lethe's high movement, doesn't even exist throughout half of the game, overkills on SPD while needing a rare/forged sword to do more damage than she does anyways (which wasn't a bad amount to begin with), supports only two units of which one (mordi) will only want his support if Ilyana isn't played (this is ignoring that a Soren B won't happen until chapter 24 and a Mordi B won't happen until 19. Lethe/Jill only takes until 22 to A, Lethe/Muarim 24 to A, and Lethe/Ike to 19 to B making her supports faster than his). You can debate Ilyana's chance of not being played, sure (she's right below Stefan on the current tier list, which I think is a pretty good chance of being played). But if she is played, both Mordi and Ilyana will be getting a B, no doubt. His only advantage over Lethe is that he overkills SPD. I'm curious now. What enemies does he manage to double than other units (not just Lethe) fail to double? Is that overkill speed even worth it? Cause if he can't manage to double enemies that other units fail to double, Stefan is a less-defensive, lower-movemented version of Lethe with worse supports who's only advantage is that he doesn't need the demi after turn 5 to keep going (assuming Lethe hasn't pulled her share of kills in and assuming that the cost of Lethe using the demi is not off-set already by the fact that she won't ever need a weapon while Stefan will). If it wasn't for silver/forge, I'm not sure he would be better than her even in the late game. The highest STR he can manage is 24. Lethe manages 25 when undemied and 22 when demied (assuming her STR is 19). Sure, that's better (if only because half the chapter with 1 STR edge loses to the other half with a 2 STR loss), but Lethe still has movement, HP, and defense on him, so ignoring their weapons... Lethe is better overall (even when demied) even in the endgame. Edited January 22, 2011 by Snowy_One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 (edited) For the record, I'm going to ignore everything about Astra. My bad for not playing the game in 2.5 years and forgetting that Astra uses 5 weapon uses instead of 1. Congrats Snowy, you were finally right about something. Doesn't mean that you win the debate when the rest of your points are shit. Considering that it takes the cognitive power of a six year old child to be capable of ordering the paragraph I wrote into proper sentences, this does not boost my faith in your ability as a debater. Sure, it took him some time to sound out the hard words, and I needed to tell him what the abbreviations meant, but he understood it just the same. After all, it's not like I am posting cryptically phrased hieroglyphs or latin or something. No but it takes little effort to make your numbers user friendly. Just saying. If sending her onto the beach is such a problem too you, then don't send her there. I suggested sending her there because Nedata can screw things up easily if he gets out of hand and the group might lose a house if enough things go wrong. But sure, if you don't want to send her there, be my guest. However, if you DO send her there, she doesn't suffer the same movement penalties that Titania would. This means you can send Lethe north and Titania south if you really need too. If you feel it's not needed, then you can send her south. The important thing is that you can choose which way to head. Nedata? Problem? Have you even LOOKED at his stats? Nedata lv 18 (venin axe) 40 hp, 20 atk, 12 AS, 75 hit, 25 avo, 9 def, 5 res, 3 crit, 1 cev Let's see here... 20 Atk fails to 2HKO Mia at level 11 (very possible when you consider all the BExp available not to mention 2 chapters of fighting) and even if he does hit, he's looking at 33 Hit. He can't double a level 10 Boyd and 3RKOs the guy with 51 Hit. Yes, Nedata is giving the team so much trouble that we must send Lethe to eat up the Exp gift that IS decided to grant us with. It's wonderful that Lethe can potentially help out anywhere on the map. But what you don't seem to realize is that she's kinda redundant in certain areas. And you're right. Titania IS better than Lethe (overall). I don't think I have ever said otherwise at any point of my life. The only way I can see this even being a issue here is that I was saying that, since Lethe has the option to head onto the beach and move relatively well, she may be arguably the best unit in this chapter due to the added flexability. However, I will admit that I am only looking at it statistically. Technically, Lethe is the second-worst unit in the chapter due to having to be commanded about via the menu system (this would have been a much better point. Why didn't you attack this?). I only attack points that are not logically sound. You could be arguing for Titania and I could be arguing for Bastian and considering how your opening had quite a lot of basic problems with it, I'd still probably win. The winner of a debate isn't the one who has the better unit. It's the one who can defend their unit better. You of all people should know this. Basically, I don't argue losing battles. Lethe is actually a good unit to send south to help out with Kotaff since, surprise surprise, he gives Titania problems. First off... Easy mode and you ONLY got 8-9 people to 20/20? What the frick is wrong with you man? Secondly... If Lethe fought only unpromoted units throughout the game, you might have a point here. However, promoted units do come along, and when they do, the amount of EXP per kill gained is going to jump hugely for Lethe. A core team of 8-9 is a lot better than a team of 16. Luminescent Blade proved that it's easier to beat FE8 with just Seth than using Seth and other units. While this isn't FE8, the point still stands. The less units you use, the stronger the collective team is. Lethe joins at level 3 in chapter 10. She needs to level up 17 times in 18 chapters to be ??/20 by the final chapter. She only needs ~94% of a level average per chapter to achieve this. Between chapter 10 and 28, assuming we clear each chapter without a loss of Bexp to turns and achieve no additional goals (no priests or laguz survive and the like) we will have ~10,550 Bexp. Divided evenly among a 14 man team (which I expect to be considered much larger than usual for HM) this means that Lethe gets about 753 Bexp. This is assuming she gets absolutely no additional Bexp from the prior chapters. On a ten-man team she will get 1,005. Assuming she waits until the VERY end to use her Bexp, and gets the most expensive levels, sure, she won't get a lot... On a 14 man team... That waited until the last possible point to give her Bexp (The final two levels of Bexp are FAR more pricy than the first few levels. Lethe needs only 160 Bexp to level up at base level, but 444 to level up her last level). Assuming the player doesn't wait until the last moment to use the Bexp, Lethe will get two level-ups from Bexp. More if we are not using a 14 man team. This means she only needs to level up 15 times in 18 chapters, or net an average of .83 EXP per chapter. This may be hard before chapter 17, yes, but it will become vastly easier after 17. Lethe will likely end up in the 17-19 range with basic use (higher on a smaller team). I would say that that is close enough to assume she will be basically at max-level. The fact of the matter is that Lethe SHOULDN'T need BExp. Ever. Lethe is essentially a prepromote, or a unit that is essentially free from RNG screwage. There's absolutely NO point to give her Bonus Experience or even to argue for it. Lethe shouldn't be needing extra levels because her stats should good enough. You claiming that she needs BExp to hit level 20 means that you don't have confidence in a certain level at that point in time. Bull. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16443&view=findpost&p=1326439 This is the most recent post with stats in the FE9 tier topic. Boyd at 20/10 has 52.75 HP, not 53 as the post says. Now, sure, maybe this is just Cynthia. Maybe she rounds. That wouldn't disprove your point if no one called her on it. Sure, 1 HP may not matter much in her post, but 1 point of something else is a serious issue (like, say, 1 point of speed). If this were true, I would expect someone would have called Cynthia on it to ensure she doesn't round when the number may actually matter. So I'm calling bull on this. wat is this i dont even Honestly, I'm stunned. I don't know what to say. I tell you that all decimals are rounded down ("all fractions are omitted") because it says right here in the FE9 calculations page and your response is "well, Cynthia rounds up"? No words can explain my thoughts right now. Congratulations, you have dumbfounded me. Lethe's ??/20 STR is 20.5 with a cap of 26 while her LCK is 23.5 with a cap of 40. Even if you were using the chance to cap instead of the average stat provided here on the site, your statement would be wrong (Okay. Maybe through some funky number counting you could claim she won't get 21 STR due to that cap. However, even then, how does this mean Lethe would be more likely to have 24 Luck then 23? Her cap is so high that it is literally impossible for her to cap it). So yea, I'm going to ask that you use the numbers provided here, on the site, or at least post a link to the site that you got this from. Found it. I only posted the Str since it's the more important one. Lethe has exactly a 50% chance of having 20 or less Str at level 20. We can argue back and forth over whether or not Lethe will have 20 or 21 Str at level 20 but that's going to be pointless. But it's a lot better to assume 20 Str because hey, if she's still a star at 20 Str, that's good. If she needs 21 Str that badly, it looks like your arguments are then based on luck. No. At best it looks like something that *might* be better but is an acquired taste. In my eyes, it's more annoying to read as the color changes keep bothering me. Well, boo fucking hoo for you. But did you ever consider that using [.code] format might save someone else from having a brain aneurysm? Maybe she used a Laguz Gem? Maybe she got exposed to enough attacks to transform again? Maybe the player REALLY wanted that seal and decided to wait? It really doesn't matter. The point is that Danomill is the hardest foe in the chapter in which Lethe joins and is capable of making even Titania be careful around him. Yet if she were to fight him, she is capable of almost taking him down without any outside assistance, which is really saying something. You just don't get it, do you? It doesn't matter that Lethe in Cat form can take down Danomill without healing. The fact of the matter is that Lethe will NOT be in Cat form when she reaches Danomill. And Lethe isn't going to be anywhere near her second transform of the chapter or eating a full quarter of all of the Laguz Stones available in this game (which all go to Reyson) just to beat a single boss. It's called "risk-and-return", a basic business concept. Your "what-ifs" are entertaining but get realistic for a change. I won't deny that she won't be going near the boss... well... Actually... Assuming we don't send her to get Zihark (ignoring him or having Mordi get him), she might be useful. I would rather have the boss use 1 ranged attack on someone during the enemy phase (we can keep softies out of range) then pounce on him without fear of being countered on the player phase. If that happens, then Lethe will be highly useful.However, I don't think that people who are willing to consider passing up Zihark or field two Laguz for this chapter are in a majority... anywhere... And I would be lying if I didn't say I pretty much dock Lethe/Zihark in the upper-right after Zihark gets recruited. In that case, we are in agreement. Lethe plays a very minimal role in this chapter since doing anything to boost her performance leaves you with one useless unit at all times (if we field Mordecai to recruit Zihark, he needs a helper to beat the Myrmidons since he can't, you know, attack). Lethe is also one of the few people who doesn't get doubled. IIRC, less than 5 people can claim that, and of those only Lethe and Titania can claim any significant degree of durability against the ravens. Mordi is untransformed and gets doubled, the generals get doubled, and pretty much everyone else is in danger. Sure, Lethe may not double them, but she still preforms admirably against them. Most defiantly the second-best unit on the map in those chapters. I think it's relevant to note that Rolf, Soren and Ilyana also don't take damage when attack Ravens. And since you face a max of 2-3 at any given time (and usually less than that), I'd still say that Lethe is nothing special. Her offense isn't great and while her defense is fine, others just don't take damage... period. This has a 33% chance of happening per hit with the critical . You have exactly 1 killer lance at this point in the game and one killing edge. This means you have two units who have a 66% chance of killing these ravens. Sure, that's more than 50% and on average they will kill them, but there is still a 33% chance that they will fail. People dock Mia's critical hit chances as 'unreliable' for less. Yes it's a 33% chance of happening. But the point is that if I field Oscar or Marcia with a Killer Lance and either of them lands the hit, it's better than Lethe's offense right there. It's a gimmick and not a reliable one but if you have an item that you can use, why not use it? I'm simply pointing out what happens with the critical. Then what is to be proud of? Kieran can match Muarim's MT with a forged steel axe, so is Muarim's attack on joining suddenly NOT impressive? Just because a single unit can kill a raven while using a rare weapon doesn't mean that Lethe's ability to go toe-to-toe with them and make it out fairly well and reliably 2HKO them is suddenly not impressive. Stop being obtuse. No, Lethe's offense is not impressive since she's not the only one who can do it. Last I checked, you don't get brownie points if you do an extra 8 damage to an enemy when Unit B still does enough damage to two-hit the damn thing. You either 2RKO the Raven or you don't. And since Lethe 2RKOs Ravens but isn't the only one doing that, then yes, her offense truly is nothing special. Welcome to the harsh world of reality. I left 14 out since it is such a laughably joke compared to the two chapters preceding it. Not only are your units freshly leveled off the ravens, but the only things that can even be considered problems in this chapter are Gash's tendency to walk on water and the fog. Lethe is still very strong in this chapter to be sure. It's just less pronounced now that the group is facing enemies that are easier, less numerous, and they are much stronger themselves. Touche. My plan was to blind you with awesomeness, and failing that, gratuitous male nudity. So... Yay for you? I guess? Tits or GTFO. Too be honest, it REALLY doesn't matter that much. Come next chapter, both are preforming very well. Stefan may have access to the Katti, but even with it, he's not winning by all that much. Against anything that isn't a knight, I think it's a fairly safe assumption to say that both will be killing reliably and that this behavior will persist at roughly this level until silver becomes purchasable for Stefan.As for how Lethe is level 7... Well first off I kinda went male on this and picked a nice, round, even number that looked about right. It was a choice between 8 and 6. Had I thought it through more I would have picked 6. It wouldn't have mattered that much though since the difference between the two in STR is 1 point for Lethe and she was already more than fast enough. Which is all nice and dandy until you realize that Lethe's untransformed once you get to the real fighting. I could be absolutely wrong about this but a unit that can continue fighting is probably better than one who sits useless on the battlefield for a decent number of turns while everyone else is pulling their weight. But once again, I could be completely mistaken. 1) And this matters... why? By the time Stefan comes around, most units are getting up there. Most of the sword-users have enough STR or SPD so that they can wield anything and still double more or less reliably. Sure, Ike may fail to double a soldier while wielding the armorslayer, but you won't be equipping that to fight one. In two chapters your units will be promoting anyways. By 18, AS loss will be a non-issue unless you are Mist/Elincia trying to wield the Runesword (Weight 19) It matters because Stefan doubles everything in the game minus a couple of Swordmasters in Endgame no matter what he holds. And he does this at base level. I'd say that's pretty cool and something worth mentioning since Lethe actually ends the game having doubling problems. 1) So... Yay? Silver doesn't come about in force until chapter 23. I believe there is only one Silver Blade between the time Stefan joins and the time Silver can just be bought. Of the mono-sword users, once they promote, they will hit A swords fairly quickly. After all, it's their only weapon.2) The VK has exactly 25 uses. Assuming we hammerine it, that's only 24 times he can use it between 16 and 22. An average of 4 times per chapter. I'll be gracious and assume that that is 3 kills average instead of 2. That's still not terribly impressive. Especially since the main point of the VK is the critical boost, not the raw damage. 3) Regardless of how well Stefan uses the VK, the best use for it will always be on someone with wrath. Even if that person ends up being Stefan, that means he won't touch the VK until chapter 19. 5) And depwinve pwecious widdle Mist of her Swonic Sword? GASP! Isn't that, like, a crime in fifteen states? Also, I find it funny that you are getting mad and threatening to blast me for it, yet are then turning around and using one of the main arguments I have for using her to try and argue Stefan up. Either way, the SS doesn't come until 18. Stefan needs wrath to make the combo work, and he'd probably need both dusts and the mage band (it works for Mia because she can manage to net roughly 16-18 MAG with the dusts or band and her supports. Stefan's got 16 at MOST (and I have to round up for that!) with BOTH the dusts and band at 20/20 and gets only 1 attack from supports. If Mia got that same degree of treatment, she would have 23 MAG (33 with the SS). Now I'm not saying that this should or shouldn't be done or anything of the sort. What I will say is that to make the SS work you are going to have to devote the mage band and both dusts... Hey wait a sec... In order to make this work, Stefan would need the VK, both dusts and the band, wrath (critical to ensure kills at 2-range and to boost up his crit for the VK). If he wants to make the SS or VK last long enough to do anything significant, he's going to need Hammerine uses as well... Don't people usually jump all over me for suggesting Mia gets half these things? Nah. I'm imagining things. 1) Stefan doesn't NEED that Silver Blade to have more than passable offense. Stefan already has amazing offense with an Iron Blade in his hands. And I gave him that since silly me for assuming that Ike has control of the Steel Blade (if Stefan gets his hands on it, things die, simple as that). Stefan ties Lethe's Atk with a simple Iron Blade (buyable in 16) but doubles everything on the map without blinking an eye. Lethe fails to double Myrmidons and has a 35% chance of not doubling the Sniper (the chance that she only has 16 or less AS). And that's when Lethe's a Cat which is only about 45% of the time since Lethe detransforms long before the map finishes. Lethe at best ties Stefan's offense. At best. I hate to think what happens at worst... oh wait, Lethe's useless on the map at worst! 2) It exists as an option. If Stefan ever wants to go Chuck Norris on a guy's ass, guess what happens. He pulls out the Vague Katti and does it. Lethe has no "Chuck Norris" option. If she can't kill an enemy, she has no upgrade. Stefan does. 3) Wrong. Wrong. Very wrong. Oh dear. I can just smell you wanting to pull out Mia right now and argue that she uses it better. Except you seem to forget that knocking Mia/Zihark down to half HP means that they can die much easier. Why would you ever risk a reset when Stefan criticals about ~80% of the time with it at full HP? And not only that but Stefan's nuts 19 Str means that he doesn't even need the critical to kill most things. It just saves a use on the sword. 5) Aww, you're really funny. Mist still needs 2 Arms Scrolls for the Sonic Sword and even when she has it, she's not blowing anyone away (since Mist's job isn't offense, it's healing). You're better off selling them for 8k a piece. Sure Mist uses the Sonic Sword better than anyone. But all it does is give her offense that's comparable to the weaker people on your team. And when you realize that Mist shouldn't be used as a combatant and is better as a healer with a sword just to protect herself, you can start trading it away to others who might benefit. Like Stefan who now has 1~2 range or Lucia who has even better Mag but comes a good 8 chapters later. Lethe only dreams of days when she can have 1~2 range. See, here's the thing. Stefan uses the Vague Katti better than anyone else. Stefan can also use the Sonic Sword if things work out that way. In case you didn't realize, this isn't a tier list debate. This is Stefan vs. Lethe. And if Stefan has a pretty decent chance at getting 1~2 range while Lethe always has to attack at 1 range, point for Stefan. Even if you have to jump through hoops to get it. And no matter how you slice it, that's pretty important. 1) I won't deny it. Lethe does have to work around a transform gauge. But you see, there ARE ways around it! It is completely possible for her to enter into the stage undemied and then just equip the band when she reverts. Or she can use a gem. Yes. I know. Reyson uses them far better. This doesn't mean it can just be ignored. 2) Check the numbers. While untransformed Lethe gains 4 per turn and 2 if she enters into battle. While transformed she loses 3 per turn and only 1 per battle. Now, I won't deny that having a untransformed laguz on the field is a bad thing. However, Lethe will be spending far more turns on the field transformed than not. But that's unacceptable? Well... Brace yourselves for this... Then let her get attacked. That's ridiculous! Retarded! Insane! Right? Well, no. I'm not suggesting that we dangle Lethe out like Chris Hanson dangles fake pre-teens in front of people online. However, hear me out. One of the assumptions we have regarding backliners is that, no matter how good the player is, at some point, your mages/healers/others will get attacked as enemies slip by. This is part of why durability is still important to them. So... Why not let Lethe hang out around them and use her to either block or bait any foes that will get by? Sure, we may lose a enemy-phase kill or two, but most of the backliners are frail. You don't want them being attacked at all. Lethe is much more durable than them and has the advantage of being basically the perfect bait for those foes who do slip through. Before you go all nutzo, I'm not suggesting we intentionally let foes through. What I am suggesting is keeping Lethe around there so that she can serve as a magnet for those that do get through. Less risky than letting one of them hit a mage/healer. 3) Even when unshifted, Lethe doesn't suddenly become useless. She can still shove/smite units around. With her great weight, a shove is very likely to happen, which is useful. 1) Lethe won't be getting either the Demi Band or the Laguz Gems. It's similar to my case of Stefan not getting the Sonic Sword except I put up a very good reason of why Stefan should get it instead of Mist (Mist isn't designed to be a combatant while Stefan is). I'd like you to do the same for the Demi Band and Laguz Gems before assuming that Lethe can pig out with either of them. 2) Sigh. Just to be clear, I'm going to summarize your argument. "To make Lethe useful past Turn 5, we want her to get attacked. And obviously, she can't kill the guy back but it's useful for protecting a healer! And this makes Lethe better than Stefan who never has to deal with this problem!" Are you trying to argue that Lethe is usable or better than Stefan? Because right now, you're just proving that Lethe has uses. Not that she's better than Stefan. 3) Ok. Lethe can shove units. Great. Stefan can do that too. AND he can kill stuff at the same time! 16: There is still plenty of fighting happening leading up to the throne room. Just because the heaviest fighting happens there doesn't mean that the other fighting is suddenly not-heavy or worthless. Tie. 1-1.17: Indeed. Tie. 2-2 18: Most of the fighting is going to be delicately luring Naesalsa out to get his ravens to leave and the KR. At most this takes 3-4 turns, after which it's just a curb-stomp fight. Lethe may shift out by the boss, but by that point, the heaviest fighting is already done (and you wouldn't have her or Stefan fight the guy anyway if possible). Tie. 3-3 19: Actually better for Lethe than Stefan. By this point you have access to the KR. I won't say you should give it to Lethe, but I will say that, if movement is what you value, it will go to a laguz. Unless you're fielding the hawks, that's three people left. Whichever one doesn't have the demi will at least have a crack at this. Still, I'll call it a tie. 4-4. 20: Firstly, the wyverns come on turn 3 (Lethe is still shifted). Secondly, the hardest fighting is on the way up the hill, not when the reinforcements show up. In fact, I'm partially tempted to say Lethe has a advantage since she can convert Jill if the player fails, but that's a newbie-mistake. 5-5 21: Actually, this map can be finished very swiftly via rescuing and dropping over the moat. Lethe actually has the legit advantage here since her ability to shove/smite helps the team get into position for a swift clear of both the boss and rooms than Stefan. That's not to say that he's useless, but whoever is smiting will be a far better help here. 5-6. 22: If you want Stefan to be wielding the SS, you are going to have to get the dust here. No one-turn clear if you do that. But surely, the idea of someone not named Mist using it is so stupid as to make this negligible. 23: And at the other tail end you have Haar popping up with his wyvern buddies. Plus with mines on the bridge, extra movement is very useful for getting around them (if you know where they are) or getting around the ones that went off (if you don't). Both Lethe and Stefan fail against Petrine though, Lethe harder, but still... Silver at last. Stefan wins. 6-6. 24: If we're going to be talking about jobs that anyone else can do, then Stefan shouldn't have any points at all after 18 (when Zihark and Mia have likely promoted, as have the rest of the team). Also, facing Rikard is tough due to the sheer numbers around him. If the team does head west, even if she shifts out, her help will be appreciated simply due to helping to thin them down. Stefan wins though due to silver. 7-6. 25: This is a fliers map and you still gave the point to Stefan? 7-6. Okay. I will admit, I am likely being biased. I'm giving Lethe points even though she is not in the heaviest of the fighting. However, if we are assuming a minimum-turn push, why are we assuming that Stefan will see that much fighting when the paladins and fliers will be heading in first? Even if he does why should Lethe lose the point just because she wasn't around for the thickest of the fighting? There is more to each chapter than just the final heavy fight and being able to help out in those areas still counts for something. No shit, Sherlock. I've already proved that Stefan's offense is better than Lethe's in pure numbers. Then toss in the fact that Lethe HAS transformation problems and your answer is "she can shove!"? And you expect this to be better than Stefan's performance? 16 - Do you honestly consider 3 Myrmidons, 1 Fighter and 2 Mages to be "lots of fighting"? 18 - Naesala is on the next map. Nice try. This one has a Sage boss with Blizzard and Shinon with a Brave Bow. By the time Lethe gets to Shinon, she's untransformed. Never mind the boss. 19 - Knight Ring doesn't come until Naesala leaves and fuck no, Reyson is getting it. Every. Single. Time. I want to see you prove that Lethe is a better recipient of the Knight Ring than Reyson. 20 - Did you even check where the reinforcements are? They're on a slope where you can't touch them at 1 range. God damn it, at least do SOME homework before making claims. After that, Stefan is much better here and also has WTA on Shiharam (not like Lethe even fights him at all). 21 - This map still takes at least 8 or 9 turns, even with Rescue and Drop. Too bad that Lethe stops fighting on Turn 5, eh? 22 - You seem to have this notion that overkill offense is needed. Stefan has 8 base Mag. This is very sufficient for the Sonic Sword. Stefan never "needs" a Spirit Dust. He certainly likes it but it's not worth spending longer than 1 turn here. That being said, once again, Stefan doesn't suffer if he doesn't get the Spirit Dust. He just profits. Basic business lesson, Snowy. 23 - You mean 3 Wyverns to fight after you recruit Haar? I'll give you this for the sake of your Jill support but do remember that Haar usually doesn't pop up until Turn 5 (you need to cross a certain line on the map) and Iron/Killer Ballistas mean that Marcia or Tanith aren't going to be running ahead of everyone, even with the Full Guard equipped. At the same time, Stefan goes with the rest of the team and kills anything that looks at him funny. 24 - Facing Rikard is easy. Remember that Rikard is the first guy who 2HKOs base level Stefan in the game and that's with 52 Hit. Now imagine level 12 Stefan. 25 - We have 1 Full Guard, a boss with a Bolt Axe and Resolve who moves and all sorts of enemies littering the top portions of the map, including Iron/Killer Ballistas. Snowy, I know that Tanith, Jill and Marcia are good. But they're not THAT good. We need the rest of the army to help out with the ground troops. When Israel razed Gaza, they didn't just send the planes to bomb the shit out of the place. They followed it up with infantry. Same idea here. And Stefan isn't useless when the army gets to the top of the hill, unlike Lethe. Snowy, you're giving points to Lethe when she's not fighting... at all. You don't seem to get the fact that Lethe transforms into a little pussy on Turn 5. This deems her useless. So in other words, you set up a system in which Stefan would win by default and gave him points without considering that he may not be able to fight in the chapter, then docked Lethe points just because she wouldn't be involved in the 'heaviest' fighting? How about this. You run a race against me. Every checkpoint, I get a full minute off my time, but in order for you to get half a minute off yours you have to pass it in less time than I passed mine. Oh. And you have to run with weights on your leg.This is the most biased comparison possible short of saying 'Lethe is a woman and should not be out of the kitchen'. No where is this more evident than in how you gave Stefan a point in chapter 25 even though the fliers are going to be the ones seeing most of the combat there and anyone else will be lucky to escape without being flattened by a boulder. If anyone other than the fliers fights (without a siege tome) it will likely be high-movement foot soldiers... exactly like Lethe. Heck. I don't even see your proof that Lethe is shifting out. Assuming she loses 5 power per turn (that's two fights every turn. One player, one enemy) she's going until turn four easily enough. If, for any reason at all, she misses ONE of those battles, she makes it to turn 5. Of the chapters you listed only three have a minimum turn count greater then 10 (two of which are 12s). I can fairly safely say she is fighting at full capacity for at least HALF of each chapter before she needs to gem/demi. 18 is going to be drawing Naesala out and after he leaves it's such a heavy curbstomping that it doesn't matter if Lethe won't be undemied by the time you reach the boss or not, and she won't even be involved in fights before he leaves most likely anyways! YEESH! Talk about a biased argument! Umm... YES. Stefan's offense is miles better than Lethe's. Miles and away. And this is when Lethe is transformed. With no Demi Band. You don't seem to understand that transformation problems are tied to Lethe inherently. I'm haven't attached arbitrary weights to her legs. This is her character. She fights for 4 turns and then transforms back to Beast Tribe. This is fact. Stefan never transforms to a little kid with a wooden blade. He's always fighting. This is another fact. And his base offense is equal to Lethe at her strongest. Just look at the numbers that I posted in my first post. He's got 28 Atk at base level with a buy-able Iron Blade. That ties Lethe after 4 levels of growth. Just imagine if he starts using the Steel Blade. That's 30 Atk. Whoops, Stefan's got more Atk and AS than Lethe! I'm not being biased. I'm being realistic. If you honestly believe that we finish Chapter 21 in 4 turns, you're nuts. If you believe that we finish Chapter 23 before the end of Turn 5, you're crazy. And in the later maps, most of the troops sit near the boss. Look at Chapter 18. Look at Chapter 21. Look at Chapter 23 and 24. That's at least 4 or 5 turns into the map. And whoops, Lethe's detransformed back to Beast Tribe! Short of Shove, she's useless at that point. All you've done is shown how badly you've missed the point. The more Lethe fights, the sooner she becomes useless in a map. At it takes is 5 fights for her to transform back at the start of Turn 5. We can either have her fight or have her not fight. If you want to bring up Shove as a Cat, why can't I just field a Demi Banded Mordecai/Muarim instead and have him do the shoving? In every argument you make, Lethe has clear cut problems. She either fights and transforms earlier or she doesn't fight and I wonder why I didn't field a better unit like Mordecai or Muarim. And once again, Stefan doesn't have these problems. At worst, Stefan matches Lethe's base Atk but doubles everything. At best, he rapes her in offense even at base level in Chapter 16. He's the only character in the game whom normal enemies get a critical rate on.Also 2HKO's aren't the only threat. What about a 3HKO? Even with both Mist and Rhys popping Physics, that's only two heals per turn. Four if you want Soren and Ilyana/Tormod also healing (if they are in range). I'm not going to say that he won't be healed, but it is also not impossible for him to go down because he was at 2/3rds health and you figured he wouldn't need the heal either and decided to put it elsewhere. Not to mention Stefan needs to be wielding the VK to match Lethe's defense. I would be shocked if you couldn't see the problem with that. Namely that the VK is a one-of-a-kind sword (being wielded by a guy with a skill that's pretty much made for breaking one-of-a-kind swords no less). What are you trying to prove? I don't see defensive problems for Stefan. The first guy that 2RKO's him at BASE level is in Chapter 22. The first guy that 2RKO's him with the Vague Katti at BASE level is a boss in Chapter 24. Pretty cool stuff. This is also assuming that the first time I field him is Chapter 22/24 because I'm a complete moron and I refuse to field the best units on my team. And if characters could only die from attacks that could 2HKO them, you would have a pretty solid argument. Unfortunately, they don't, and you don't either. Sides, apply the same standard to Lethe. She doesn't have to worry about a foe who can 2HKO her either until Rikard. That's a pretty solid defense, no? This is the first time where you've actually addressed the fact that this is Lethe vs. Stefan, not Lethe vs. no Lethe. Congrats, you're getting better at this! Yes, Lethe at level 7 does have the same raw Def as Stefan with the Vague Katti. But that's the thing. Lethe is a bit better at defense while Stefan is miles and away better at offense. This is after Stefan has just joined the party (no training) and Lethe has been present since Chapter 10. If A > B at one thing but B >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A at another, it stands to reason that B >>> A, no? Try: Lethe is better than Stefan at both offense and defense until silver weapons come around. Once they do, he finally surpasses her. However, by that time, the damage has already been done and Lethe wins overall. Chapter 15: Stefan - Level 8 Swordsman - S Swords Vague Katti: 31 Att Iron Blade: 28 Att Lethe - Level 7 Cat Claws: 28 Att Not my fault you can't read properly. A buyable sword (in Chapter 16) gives Stefan the same Att as Lethe. Any sword with rank C+ or a Steel Sword with a 2+ MT forge on it tops Lethe's attack. I fail to see how Lethe is "better than Stefan at offense until silver weapons come around". Going by your own numbers that you posted, Stefan needs at least a Iron Blade to tie Lethe in damage. Otherwise he's losing. Also, your numbers... were skewed. Lethe should have 18 AS, not 17, but I digress... By the end of chapter 15 your mymerdions will likely be only 1-2 points faster than Lethe, so she's still doing well. That's not the point. Yes, Stefan has more AS. It doesn't matter. Lethe doubles pretty much everything still. Stefan doesn't *need* the VK, no. It doesn't matter. Even demied, Lethe still manages 25 MT (14 base + 3 transform +8 claws). Yes, she loses by 3 MT (2 if he's using a steel sword), but compare that to a level 18 Kieran who, while wielding a steel axe... has 25 MT! Kieran. Wielding a Steel Axe. Has the same MT as a demied Lethe. A unit faster and tougher than him with equal movement. Sure, he has forges and handaxes, but that is still impressive.You seem to have this preconceived notion that Lethe needs to be undemied to get some sort of offense going. This isn't true at all. First off, the Iron Blade ONLY has 9 MT. I don't understand why you believe that a D level sword is so amazing when the actual good stuff is starting to appear now (anything C level and up). Second point. Kieran does not hamper the team at any point. Lethe does. Lethe either has transformation problems and is doing squat for half of a battle or she's taking a valuable resource from better units who (on top of flat out being better than Lethe) use the resource better than her. Lethe might have an offense but we either derive units of the Demi Band who use it better than her or we have a useless unit for 50% of the battle. Last I checked, Meg isn't in high tier for her abilities to shove/smite (if she can do the latter, I don't play RD so I don't know). Lethe has an identical STR growth rate and starts the game with 18 STR undemied. By the time Stefan rolls around, she is pumping out numbers that, while less than what Stefan offers, are still on-par with your best units. Constantly. So Lethe is good. Sababa. You're still missing the point. You're not supposed to be trying to prove if Lethe is a good unit or not. You're supposed to be trying to prove that she's better than Stefan. So Stefan is allowed to get two level-ups in two chapters (one being 17 admittedly) but Lethe isn't permitted to get 17 level-ups in 18 chapters? 19 chapters if we flesh 17 into two? Despite that she's one of the best against the ravens and your second best unit on the field? While Stefan is allowed to 'maul everything he comes across'? First off, next time you try crying foul, make sure that I'm actually guilty of the charge. I generously gave Stefan only level 16 and not 18 against a level 16 Lethe who can't gain Exp if she's untransformed on the battlefield. Second point. Since when is Lethe the second best unit on the field? Ever? Titania's better than her. Mordecai's better than her. That's two units better than her the second she joins. Rolf, Ilyana and Soren are all better units to fight Chapter 12 Ravens with. So where are you coming up with this nonsense? No. Seriously. Why only a +2 forge? It's only ~2800 gold extra to max it out from a basic level. Why not just jump it all the way to +5? I wanna know.Also, are you referring to Naesala's ravens? The ones we DON'T want to kill? If all I need is 30 Att to send everything on a one-way ticket to Timbucktoo, what makes 33 Att so much more special? This is why you are not a good debator, Snowy. I don't get bonus points for giving Stefan more Att than he needs. You just don't seem to get that, though. PS: And no, Naesala is in Chapter 19. I'm talking about Chapter 18. Demiband. Seriously. It exists. Lethe can use it. Why do you seem to automatically assume she couldn't possibly touch it? Lethe, Mordi, and Muarim are all in four spaces of each other on the tier list and there is no reason to assume that any one of them has such a monopoly on it as to shut the other two out. Lethe transforms on Turn 1. Lethe transforms back on Turn 5. There's no reason for her to have the Demi Band for the start of any battle. So now, let's field Muarim and Lethe. Muarim will hold the Demi Band until Turn 5 and then he'll trade it to Lethe. Now we have 1 Cat and 1... oh wait, Muarim's back to 0 guage and is in Laguz form instead of Tiger? Oops. Guess we still have a useless unit on the field. If we give Lethe the DB from the start, we sacrifice her stats pointlessly. If we try to get cute, we still end up with a unit that can't attack and can't do anything on the field. That's why Muarim and Mordecai are both better recepients of the DB than Lethe. Sure, they sacrifice their stats as well. But it doesn't matter since both are still superior to a non DB Lethe. If it wasn't for silver/forge, I'm not sure he would be better than her even in the late game. The highest STR he can manage is 24. Lethe manages 25 when undemied and 22 when demied (assuming her STR is 19). Sure, that's better (if only because half the chapter with 1 STR edge loses to the other half with a 2 STR loss), but Lethe still has movement, HP, and defense on him, so ignoring their weapons... Lethe is better overall (even when demied) even in the endgame. You need to handicap Stefan so Lethe can tie? I thank you for forfeiting an argument you couldn't win, real sportsman-like of you. Credit to GJ for the actual wording but fuck it, we both know how stupid your comment is. That's like saying "if Elves didn't have any tech, Orcs would steamroll them". I was going to use a sports analogy but hell, I thought a Warcraft 3 one might resonate more with you. Lethe and Stefan have the right to a equal amount of EXP. Also, demiband ruins your gauge argument. <@Life> "Lethe and Stefan have the right to a equal amount of EXP. Also, demiband ruins your gauge argument."<@Paperblade> how the fuck do lethe and stefan have the right to an equal amount of exp <@Paperblade> and how the fuck does the demiband kill gauge argument <@Paperblade> there are other laguz worth using <@Life> Like every other laguz in the game <@GeneralSpoon> Why doesn't Muriam want the demi-band? <@Paperblade> because Mia>Muarim <@Paperblade> herpderpderp <~Mekkah> lol <@Life> LOL <~Mekkah> mia should get the demi band <@GeneralSpoon> lmao I didn't know how to answer this so I went to #feto for a solution. Be happy, Paperblade wanted to insult you for your stance on gay marriage. We've got to stop here. What are you trying to prove at this point? That Lethe is better than Stefan? How are you doing that? Lethe's offense is at best equal to Stefan holding an Iron Blade and this is when she's transformed. Her defense is barely better than Stefan's and Stefan is already at a point where his defense makes him a monster. And then Lethe has transformation problems when Stefan DOESN'T. You can address ways to HELP those problems but you still forget the fact that even if Lethe was a Cat for 100% of the game with no penalties, Stefan is statistically better from the moment that he joins until Ashnard hits the ground. As I mentioned above, you proved Lethe is usable. I proved Stefan is better than Lethe. Debate over. Edited April 26, 2011 by Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 (edited) You can act as if this post doesn't exist, sorry. Edited April 26, 2011 by -Cynthia- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 (edited) 6. Quoting another user to make your argument is weak, though the line of Lethe and Stefan having equal rights to Exp is equally bad. This was more for comical effect. I wanted to share this line with #feto. When I said that I didn't know how to respond, it was more of a "I can't think of a snappy quote to use in this instance". Also, I wasn't intenting for the debate to actually be done since the last line was more like "Snowy, you can't debate at all" but since Cynthia's already put in her two cents... Edited April 26, 2011 by Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 This was more for comical effect. I wanted to share this line with #feto. When I said that I didn't know how to respond, it was more of a "I can't think of a snappy quote to use in this instance". Also, I wasn't intenting for the debate to actually be done since the last line was more like "Snowy, you can't debate at all" but since Cynthia's already put in her two cents... I figured as much, but it doesn't look so good. Also oops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Not to be rude Cynthia, but the debate topic isn't done yet. Not only am I more than looking forwards to replying, but according to the posted rules, there needs to be a post in the voting topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 Not to be rude Cynthia, but the debate topic isn't done yet. Not only am I more than looking forwards to replying, but according to the posted rules, there needs to be a post in the voting topic. Oh boo hoo, Snowy. So there was no post in the voting topic. Big freaking deal. The second Cynthia posted, any more we say is now null and void. Sorry. I'm actually upset about it myself too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Then ignore her vote, we keep debating, and once we're done, we post it in the voting topic. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 [qoute]Let's see here... 20 Atk fails to 2HKO Mia at level 11 (very possible when you consider all the BExp available not to mention 2 chapters of fighting) and even if he does hit, he's looking at 33 Hit. He can't double a level 10 Boyd and 3RKOs the guy with 51 Hit. Yes, Nedata is giving the team so much trouble that we must send Lethe to eat up the Exp gift that IS decided to grant us with. It's wonderful that Lethe can potentially help out anywhere on the map. But what you don't seem to realize is that she's kinda redundant in certain areas. Wow. You missed the point by a huge-ass margin. Lethe can help out on either the beach or the main push for the shoreline. Titania suffers movement penalties due to the sand and Marcia uses lances and is stuck fighting axe-wielding pirates. While it is true that Mia can potentially handle the entire beach on her own, or at worse, with mage backup, that exposes both to the potential of death by 1000 cuts type demise. Plus a level 11 Mia on chapter 9? I don't think that's feasible without some favoritism on her part seeing as she joined at level 6 only two chapters ago. Besides, better question, what if we are not using Mia? Mia is the only other sword-user other than Ike on the map (and Ike is needed to sieze). It's true that the items in the villages are not the most valuable (a Talisman and Restore), but are worth 10000 gold if both are sold (which is a sizable amount, even with the Gallia pay-off coming up soon). Lethe being capable of heading onto the beach means you will be capable of netting the EXP from Nedata and getting that gold with ease even if Mia is not played. I only attack points that are not logically sound. You could be arguing for Titania and I could be arguing for Bastian and considering how your opening had quite a lot of basic problems with it, I'd still probably win. The winner of a debate isn't the one who has the better unit. It's the one who can defend their unit better. You of all people should know this.Basically, I don't argue losing battles. Lethe is actually a good unit to send south to help out with Kotaff since, surprise surprise, he gives Titania problems. So arguing that Nedata doesn't pose much of a threat on his own if Mia is played (which she may not be) so that Lethe is not needed on the beach is not a losing battle, but pointing out that you can't control who Lethe attacks (and that she doesn't gain EXP) is not a losing battle? Besides, I never said Lethe was a bad unit to send south. I think she's perfectly viable down there as well. It's just that she is not confined to having to head south and can head north just as well without any serious problems due to the sand. Considering that Mia may not be played, if she isn't, Lethe is really the only choice you really have to send onto the beach if you want to kill the pirates. A core team of 8-9 is a lot better than a team of 16. Luminescent Blade proved that it's easier to beat FE8 with just Seth than using Seth and other units. While this isn't FE8, the point still stands. The less units you use, the stronger the collective team is. That is true. However, this is EASY MODE we're talking about! You receive 15 more EXP per kill than on hard mode and get a 5 bonus to your battle-base EXP. I've personally gotten 10 units to 20/20 on my first run, when I didn't understand how to properly build a team/use staves for EXP/so-forth. While using a smaller team means they will reach 20/20 sooner (meaning a bit more of mid-late power), you can get more than just 8 to max level on easy. Eh. Doesn't really matter overall I guess though. The fact of the matter is that Lethe SHOULDN'T need BExp. Ever. Lethe is essentially a prepromote, or a unit that is essentially free from RNG screwage. There's absolutely NO point to give her Bonus Experience or even to argue for it. Lethe shouldn't be needing extra levels because her stats should good enough. You claiming that she needs BExp to hit level 20 means that you don't have confidence in a certain level at that point in time. Wow. Okay. First off, I didn't say she should get Bexp. The part of that paragraph I wrote was assuming she went without getting a single drop of EXP (at which point, she needs .94 levels per chapter). The second part I wrote was if you DECIDED to give her Bexp. At which point I simply divided up the available Bexp by 14 then gave that amount to Lethe (Lethe receiving an equal share among a large-sized team) and even then I assumed the worst possible useage for it (her final level-ups, which are the most expensive). So yea, the question of Bexp was already rendered moot as the option to go without was already provided and the option to use Bexp was also given a 'worst case scenario' outlook. Secondly... Why shouldn't Lethe ever get Bexp? She is a unit on the team and, though her pre-promote status will keep her ahead of the curve until just about after the midpoint, eventually the enemies will start to catch up. Thirdly: I have perfect confidence in her ability to either reach, or be close enough to have basically reached, max level by the endgame assuming constant usage. More-so than I have faith in anyone not named 'Astrid', 'Ike', or possibly 'Titania' who does not also use a staff at least. She only needs a average of .94 levels per chapter after all, and that will not be hard to get once promoted units start appearing on the map. wat is this i dont even Honestly, I'm stunned. I don't know what to say. I tell you that all decimals are rounded down ("all fractions are omitted") because it says right here in the FE9 calculations page and your response is "well, Cynthia rounds up"? No words can explain my thoughts right now. Congratulations, you have dumbfounded me. The calculations page? WHAT?!?!?! Is that where you're getting this silly notion from? Life, the calculations page deals solely with game mechanics for things like doubling and how much Exp is obtained for a kill. Level-ups are not mentioned at all, and for a good reason. You see, when a unit levels up, they have a percent chance to increase in a certain statistic. If a unit has a 40% growth rate, then four out of every ten level-ups they will gain a stat. So a unit that has leveled up twice with a 40% growth rate has a 80% chance of having gotten the statistic and only a 20% chance of not having gotten one at all. If we were to do it by your method though, that unit would have to level up three times in order to get just one point. By your logic, the first level-up of any unit would be a empty level-up, unless it is a Laguz HP growth, since no character has a 100% growth rate. It only takes beating the prologue (and not having outright horrid luck) and seeing Ike level-up once to know that this is not true. I only posted the Str since it's the more important one. Lethe has exactly a 50% chance of having 20 or less Str at level 20. We can argue back and forth over whether or not Lethe will have 20 or 21 Str at level 20 but that's going to be pointless. But it's a lot better to assume 20 Str because hey, if she's still a star at 20 Str, that's good. If she needs 21 Str that badly, it looks like your arguments are then based on luck. While this is indeed something worth considering, it doesn't actually counter the statement I made. I agree that, if Lethe can preform just as well with 20 STR and 23 luck as with 21 STR and 24 luck, that is a good thing. However, it doesn't mean you can just drop her STR and Luck down just because it ends up on a .5. Technically, those should be rounded up. I leave them as a 20-21 due to recognizing that it could be either way. However, putting a 20.5 as a 20 is a bad idea. As to the question of averages, it is true that a unit who needs a single stat-point to do good does run the risk of being screwed. However, even with a .55, it is more likely than not that the unit will not be screwed come that point in the level (on 55 out of a hundred runs, they will have the point). Well, boo fucking hoo for you. But did you ever consider that using [.code] format might save someone else from having a brain aneurysm? You are admitting to having a brain aneurysm? You just don't get it, do you? It doesn't matter that Lethe in Cat form can take down Danomill without healing. The fact of the matter is that Lethe will NOT be in Cat form when she reaches Danomill. And Lethe isn't going to be anywhere near her second transform of the chapter or eating a full quarter of all of the Laguz Stones available in this game (which all go to Reyson) just to beat a single boss. It's called "risk-and-return", a basic business concept.Your "what-ifs" are entertaining but get realistic for a change. You don't get it, do you? It doesn't matter if Lethe won't actually be facing Danomill or not. What matters is that Danomill is the hardest enemy anyone can even fight up to that point and she still does impressively well. Lethe is a very good unit in the early game. Second best unit easily by a wide margin. If they let you upgrade her claws to be on-par with silver around chapter 23, she could easily make high, if not top, tier. For the entirety of the early game, Lethe will be a overwhelming force overcome only by Titania. Come mid game, she is still in the upper echelon of units. It's only the late-game that keeps her from being higher. I think it's relevant to note that Rolf, Soren and Ilyana also don't take damage when attack Ravens. And since you face a max of 2-3 at any given time (and usually less than that), I'd still say that Lethe is nothing special. Her offense isn't great and while her defense is fine, others just don't take damage... period. Assuming Soren has 13 MAG at this point, he's only dealing about 9 damage per hit to the Raven's ~29 HP. Lethe is dealing 15-16 damage to them with each strike. I defiantly think Lethe has the advantage. Stop being obtuse. No, Lethe's offense is not impressive since she's not the only one who can do it. Last I checked, you don't get brownie points if you do an extra 8 damage to an enemy when Unit B still does enough damage to two-hit the damn thing. You either 2RKO the Raven or you don't. And since Lethe 2RKOs Ravens but isn't the only one doing that, then yes, her offense truly is nothing special. Welcome to the harsh world of reality. Okay, gonna break this down. No, Lethe's offense is not impressive since she's not the only one who can do it. Kieran can match Muarim's offense with a forged axe upon joining and it won't be long before other units start to match up to him. Muarim's offense is still impressive. Boyd deals less damage than Titania, so is his offense suddenly not impressive simply because one other unit can match and/or surpass it? Last I checked, you don't get brownie points if you do an extra 8 damage to an enemy when Unit B still does enough damage to two-hit the damn thing. This is bad news for Stefan then. His main advantage is that he deals more damage than other units during the midgame. Also, Lethe can reliably 2HKO almost all enemies, while other units are still incapable of doing so. Kieran (whom ties with Lethe) is not as fast as her for example and won't have as easy a time doubling the faster enemies. Tits or GTFO. I don't think I can actually post a picture of a bare-chested man without getting banned here. Would rather not risk it. Which is all nice and dandy until you realize that Lethe's untransformed once you get to the real fighting. I could be absolutely wrong about this but a unit that can continue fighting is probably better than one who sits useless on the battlefield for a decent number of turns while everyone else is pulling their weight. But once again, I could be completely mistaken. The 'real fighting' is laughable in chapter 16 as it consists mainly of punching Guy-I-Wish-Was-Oliver's face in. The only fighting even remotely hard in this chapter is going to happen while Lethe is still shifted. Plus, you know, Demiband. Lethe can use it and she is still above average with it on. It matters because Stefan doubles everything in the game minus a couple of Swordmasters in Endgame no matter what he holds. And he does this at base level. I'd say that's pretty cool and something worth mentioning since Lethe actually ends the game having doubling problems. As does every other swordmaster. You were complaining about how Lethe's offense is not impressive because she overkills on enemies, well the same goes true for Stefan and speed. So long as a character has enough speed to double, any additional is not needed. If you only need 18 SPD to double every unit on a map, it doesn't matter if you have 19 or 26 (in so far as doubling is concerned). Stefan's speed lead is pointless as far as offenses go as Lethe is already fast enough to double reliably. 1) Stefan doesn't NEED that Silver Blade to have more than passable offense. Stefan already has amazing offense with an Iron Blade in his hands. And I gave him that since silly me for assuming that Ike has control of the Steel Blade (if Stefan gets his hands on it, things die, simple as that). Stefan ties Lethe's Atk with a simple Iron Blade (buyable in 16) but doubles everything on the map without blinking an eye. Do you stay on topic ever? Stefan's S weapon-rank allows him to wield only four weapons that a B rank (what other sword users have) cannot. Silver swords/blades, the Runesword, and the VK. The VK is overkill and he won't likely be touching it anyways (especially if what you are saying about the iron blade is true, since then there is no point in wielding a unique weapon that can be saved until later when it is actually needed instead of using it in the early chapters when a buyable iron weapon is just as useful). The Runesword isn't even around, and neither are silver swords. That means the ONLY weapon Stefan can use that another sword user cannot that he might realistically use is that ONE silver blade. That is the ONLY advantage to his weapon rank at this point in the game! It wouldn't matter if he had a weapon ranking of SSS in kazoo's because there are none in the game. His weapon-ranking is meaningless outside of those two weapons (one of which would not be used at all. Lethe at best ties Stefan's offense. At best. I hate to think what happens at worst... oh wait, Lethe's useless on the map at worst! Lethe at level 7 and demied has 25 offense. Stefan may have 3 more with a iron blade, but it does not matter. Lethe has superior movement, enough attack to reliably kill most everything, superior durability, and has been providing these things for a much longer time with the only cost being the demiband to do so. Your own ranting against Lethe, claiming her offense doesn't matter because it is overkill, also means Stefan can't use his primary midgame advantage since, it too, is overkill. Only on a very small group of units will he have an advantage over Lethe since he can double them. On everything else, Lethe's superior move and defenses will give her the advantage. 2) It exists as an option. If Stefan ever wants to go Chuck Norris on a guy's ass, guess what happens. He pulls out the Vague Katti and does it. Lethe has no "Chuck Norris" option. If she can't kill an enemy, she has no upgrade. Stefan does. Overkilling a enemy does not matter. The VK won't matter until after other sword-wielding units are capable of using it as well. If Stefan needs to use the VK at any point, it is a mark against him as he is using a one-of-a-kind weapon to pull off what Lethe is basically doing for free. 3) Wrong. Wrong. Very wrong. Oh dear. I can just smell you wanting to pull out Mia right now and argue that she uses it better. Except you seem to forget that knocking Mia/Zihark down to half HP means that they can die much easier. Why would you ever risk a reset when Stefan criticals about ~80% of the time with it at full HP? And not only that but Stefan's nuts 19 Str means that he doesn't even need the critical to kill most things. It just saves a use on the sword. Because Stefan doesn't critical 85% of the time at full HP. Assuming the enemy has 0 luck, the most he can potentially pull off at full HP is 64% critical rating by having max level and wielding the VK. Besides, did you even read the post? 'Even if that person ends up being Stefan'. It does not matter who the person is. The VK is going to the person who has wrath (assuming they can wield swords). Even if Stefan is the person who ends up using wrath, and thusly the VK, he won't be touching the VK until he actually gets wrath and can thusly score high critical rates and not waste weapon uses. And yes, him using the VK beforehand IS a waste since his offense, by your own admission, is good enough for him to preform without it. That makes this whole thing moot as he won't be touching the sword at all until wrath. 5) Aww, you're really funny. Mist still needs 2 Arms Scrolls for the Sonic Sword and even when she has it, she's not blowing anyone away (since Mist's job isn't offense, it's healing). You're better off selling them for 8k a piece. Sure Mist uses the Sonic Sword better than anyone. But all it does is give her offense that's comparable to the weaker people on your team. And when you realize that Mist shouldn't be used as a combatant and is better as a healer with a sword just to protect herself, you can start trading it away to others who might benefit. Like Stefan who now has 1~2 range or Lucia who has even better Mag but comes a good 8 chapters later. Lethe only dreams of days when she can have 1~2 range. You are preaching to the choir (sort of) on the issue of Mist and the SS. However, even if Mist does not use the SS, Stefan will not be using it. Even assuming he gets both dusts and the mage band he manages only 24 ATT with it. His endgame attack with a Soren support is only going to be, like, 27. Why should he wield it? Mia with both dusts and the band and her supports cranks out 33 attack with the SS. Zihark cranks out less, but can use wrath due to his evade. Ike manages 18 and can potentially wrath with it (though it means forging Aether). So what is Stefan's advantage with the SS that makes him better? 1) Lethe won't be getting either the Demi Band or the Laguz Gems. It's similar to my case of Stefan not getting the Sonic Sword except I put up a very good reason of why Stefan should get it instead of Mist (Mist isn't designed to be a combatant while Stefan is). I'd like you to do the same for the Demi Band and Laguz Gems before assuming that Lethe can pig out with either of them. Why not? Ignoring the question of gems for now, why can't Lethe use the demi-band? Not counting the herons, you will likely be fielding only one Laguz at most. Lethe is powerful for most of the early and mid game and only starts to taper off in the late game. Your own complaints against her are largely leveled against her transform gauge, and the demi-band alleviates that problem entirely. Yes, Mordi and Muarim can also use it, but as stated before, all three are within four spaces of each other right now. If it wasn't for Nephenee, they would all be grouped together. That is way too close to point at one of them and say 'you will not get the demi ever' or another and say 'you will always get the demi'. Secondly, why SHOULDN'T Lethe get access to Gems? The reason we give them to Reyson is because he can canto people to complete a chapter faster. However, if Reyson doesn't need to be shifted to complete a chapter earlier or is already shifted, why not use one on a undemied Lethe? 2) Sigh. Just to be clear, I'm going to summarize your argument."To make Lethe useful past Turn 5, we want her to get attacked. And obviously, she can't kill the guy back but it's useful for protecting a healer! And this makes Lethe better than Stefan who never has to deal with this problem!" Are you trying to argue that Lethe is usable or better than Stefan? Because right now, you're just proving that Lethe has uses. Not that she's better than Stefan. Good. Except that's not my argument at all. That's your bastardized interpretation that you made up on a whim to suit your needs. Here is my argument. Fact: If Lethe is undemied and cannot use the gems, she will eventually untransform. Fact: When she untransforms, she cannot counter and will thusly be placed on the back lines. Fact: The units in the back tend to be squishy and cannot take a lot of damage Fact: Enemies sometimes break through the back lines. Fact: If there is someone who cannot counter, the enemies will target them over others. Conclusion: If we must use Lethe without the band, then when she untransforms, we will be placed on the back lines. While she is there, we should use her to absorb the impact from any units who break through the front lines so that they do not target other units on the backlines. We can be near-guarenteed that they will attack her if so, so reliability is not the issue. By doing so, she can increase her gauge up faster to get back into the fight. Now, I am not saying that, while untransformed, she is better that Stefan. I am saying that she is not useless though, and if untransforming is a issue, that is key. It is a period of time where her utility will be less and thusly stefan is better then. However, her value is not equal to 0 either and she should not be treated as such. 3) Ok. Lethe can shove units. Great. Stefan can do that too. AND he can kill stuff at the same time! Lethe's weight means she can shove more, but that is irrelevant. What matters is that she is not useless and can still help the team out even when unshifted. 16 - Do you honestly consider 3 Myrmidons, 1 Fighter and 2 Mages to be "lots of fighting"? For this chapter, yes. There are not a lot of enemies outside of the chest rooms and it is debatable how many of those you will even enter seeing as the full guard and Dracoshield are the only items of notable value (unless you REALLY value the Bolting). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 18 - Naesala is on the next map. Nice try. This one has a Sage boss with Blizzard and Shinon with a Brave Bow. By the time Lethe gets to Shinon, she's untransformed. Never mind the boss. 19 - Knight Ring doesn't come until Naesala leaves and fuck no, Reyson is getting it. Every. Single. Time. I want to see you prove that Lethe is a better recipient of the Knight Ring than Reyson. I have a tendency to mix up 18 and 19. I apologize. And it is really easy to clear this map already. In fact, now that your fliers and paladins are promoted, I would be curious to see how Stefan is keeping up with the group if you don't take the time out to recruit Shinon. Plus, demi. Also, why would Reyson be a sho-in for the ring? His own actual movement is pretty low until he's shifted, meaning for all those times he is not, it's not worth a whole lot on him. Even when he is shifted, it's use is still far more situational than with other units. 20 - Did you even check where the reinforcements are? They're on a slope where you can't touch them at 1 range. God damn it, at least do SOME homework before making claims. After that, Stefan is much better here and also has WTA on Shiharam (not like Lethe even fights him at all). Okay. Why does this matter? You will be well on your way up the slope already by the time they arrive. Not to mention that Stefan won't be able to touch them (other units use the SS better. Unless he got wrath, they will have it) anyways. As for Shiharam, multiple units get a WTA on him. Ike, Mia, Zihark, Marcia, and Makalov all get one as well. Not to mention that anyone who can wield a axe (all your paladins) will be at a WTN. Face it. Stefan is useless here. Lethe's movement lead will allow her to more than carry the day; especially if she uses the God-damned demiband! No more griping about transform issues for you! 21 - This map still takes at least 8 or 9 turns, even with Rescue and Drop. Too bad that Lethe stops fighting on Turn 5, eh? Too bad Stefan won't be part of the rescue-drop either, eh? 22 - You seem to have this notion that overkill offense is needed. Stefan has 8 base Mag. This is very sufficient for the Sonic Sword. Stefan never "needs" a Spirit Dust. He certainly likes it but it's not worth spending longer than 1 turn here. That being said, once again, Stefan doesn't suffer if he doesn't get the Spirit Dust. He just profits. Basic business lesson, Snowy. Stefan without the spirit dust or band manages a whopping 18 offense. 19 if you want to factor in a Soren B. In chapter 16 alone he manages a 1RKO on only a few enemies. By 22, even with 21 offense with the SS (meaning he's got his endgame MAG), he manages to kill 1 soldier (just barely), some archers, and the mymerdons/1 SM. It's only going downhill from there. If he's 1 point off, he loses the soldier as well and possibly the SM's. So if he has his actual magic without the dusts or bands, or if Soren is out of range for any reason at all, the only use the SS will have is killing off unpromoted units. Wow. So impressed /sarcasm. 24 - Facing Rikard is easy. Remember that Rikard is the first guy who 2HKOs base level Stefan in the game and that's with 52 Hit. Now imagine level 12 Stefan. Now imagine Rikard having the advantage of multiple units aiding him out. Stefan 'beats' Lethe here only because of his steel weapons. Not from any actual performance on his part. 25 - We have 1 Full Guard, a boss with a Bolt Axe and Resolve who moves and all sorts of enemies littering the top portions of the map, including Iron/Killer Ballistas. Snowy, I know that Tanith, Jill and Marcia are good. But they're not THAT good. We need the rest of the army to help out with the ground troops. When Israel razed Gaza, they didn't just send the planes to bomb the shit out of the place. They followed it up with infantry. Same idea here. And Stefan isn't useless when the army gets to the top of the hill, unlike Lethe. Moving up the hill may actually take so long for any ground unit that Lethe will shift back. Whoever goes up the hill is going to have to follow a long and winding path while being exposed to unavoidable bolder-drops. Face it, the fliers will be doing the brunt of the work here. Any action the foot-units will have will be mainly mop-up work. Hardly worthy of calling it a 'victory' for either Stefan or Lethe. Umm... YES. Stefan's offense is miles better than Lethe's. Miles and away. And this is when Lethe is transformed. With no Demi Band. Sure... After chapter 23 when silver weapons become available for purchase. Before then, Lethe is pulling out numbers equal to your best units with only a slight tapering off towards the 20+ chapters while having great movement and superior durability to Stefan. You don't seem to understand that transformation problems are tied to Lethe inherently. I'm haven't attached arbitrary weights to her legs. This is her character. It can also be circumvented via a demiband and she is not useless during the time she is untransformed. Worth less, yes. Worthless? No. She fights for 4 turns and then transforms back to Beast Tribe. Heck. I don't even see your proof that Lethe is shifting out. Assuming she loses 5 power per turn (that's two fights every turn. One player, one enemy) she's going until turn four easily enough. If, for any reason at all, she misses ONE of those battles, she makes it to turn 5. If, for any reason at all (enemies all dead/out of range/didn't target her on the enemy phase for example) Lethe misses one of those two fights per turn, she makes it to turn 5. You lose. This is fact. Stefan never transforms to a little kid with a wooden blade. Indeed. Stop treating him like Ike. He's always fighting. This is another fact. And his base offense is equal to Lethe at her strongest. Just look at the numbers that I posted in my first post. He's got 28 Atk at base level with a buy-able Iron Blade. That ties Lethe after 4 levels of growth. Just imagine if he starts using the Steel Blade. That's 30 Atk. Whoops, Stefan's got more Atk and AS than Lethe! Last I checked, you don't get brownie points if you do an extra 8 damage to an enemy when Unit B still does enough damage to two-hit the damn thing. Don't you just love it when a person counters their own argument for you? I'm not being biased. I'm being realistic. If you honestly believe that we finish Chapter 21 in 4 turns, you're nuts. If you believe that we finish Chapter 23 before the end of Turn 5, you're crazy. And in the later maps, most of the troops sit near the boss. Look at Chapter 18. Look at Chapter 21. Look at Chapter 23 and 24. That's at least 4 or 5 turns into the map. And whoops, Lethe's detransformed back to Beast Tribe! Short of Shove, she's useless at that point. Yes. Because Lethe cannot use the demiband... ever... and can't shove/smite/protect back-line units. Janaff got moved up over Elincia for doing the same thing. I don't see why Lethe should be considered useless for it. All you've done is shown how badly you've missed the point. The more Lethe fights, the sooner she becomes useless in a map. At it takes is 5 fights for her to transform back at the start of Turn 5. We can either have her fight or have her not fight. If you want to bring up Shove as a Cat, why can't I just field a Demi Banded Mordecai/Muarim instead and have him do the shoving? Oh. You could. Totally. I'm not saying you can't do that at all. I'm saying you won't likely have more than one Laguz on the field though (not counting Reyson). Since Lethe is being debated, she sort of is the one who gets fielded. Lethe has the advantage of being able to make her first few turns without the demi, then equipping it. In every argument you make, Lethe has clear cut problems. She either fights and transforms earlier or she doesn't fight and I wonder why I didn't field a better unit like Mordecai or Muarim. Mordi and Muarim are units who are saved only by the demiband. Mordi can't even fight until turn 5 unless you let other units attack him and Muarim is almost as bad (starting gauge of 5 as opposed to 0). Why must Lethe be incapable of touching the band, but Mordi and Muarim, units who are literally nothing without it, get it? That seems pretty biased to me; especially if you only have one Laguz on the field. And once again, Stefan doesn't have these problems. At worst, Stefan matches Lethe's base Atk but doubles everything. At best, he rapes her in offense even at base level in Chapter 16. Last I checked, you don't get brownie points if you do an extra 8 damage to an enemy when Unit B still does enough damage to two-hit the damn thing. Hehe. Don't think I'm ever gonna tire of this quote. What are you trying to prove? I don't see defensive problems for Stefan. The first guy that 2RKO's him at BASE level is in Chapter 22. The first guy that 2RKO's him with the Vague Katti at BASE level is a boss in Chapter 24. Pretty cool stuff. This is also assuming that the first time I field him is Chapter 22/24 because I'm a complete moron and I refuse to field the best units on my team. So the fact that he is capable of being killed by your average mook who manages to get a critical rate on him and the fact that he is the ONLY character in the entire damned game who has this as a problem is somehow NOT a defensive issue to you? Lethe at 13 has more HP and one less defense then him already when demied than he has at 20/20 AND she doesn't have a WTD against the most common type of weapon in the entire game! Stefan has only 68 AVO (58 with a WTD) at his max level. Lethe at 20/20 has 71 AVO. Her HP is higher than his endgame for half the time he's around. Her defense is superior to his endgame total when demied when she hits 15. Stefan only has 16 Defense at endgame with average HP, a WTD against the most common weapon type, AND HE CAN BE ****ING CRITICALED BY YOUR AVERAGE MOOK! Pull your head out of your ass! It doesn't matter if Rikard is the first person who can 2HKO him or not. All it takes is some lucky lancer scoring a critical hit on a Stefan that's not entirely healed up to put him in the danger zone. Heaven forbid that they have a killer lance! Not my fault you can't read properly. A buyable sword (in Chapter 16) gives Stefan the same Att as Lethe. Any sword with rank C+ or a Steel Sword with a 2+ MT forge on it tops Lethe's attack. I fail to see how Lethe is "better than Stefan at offense until silver weapons come around". Lethe also has greater move and superior defenses than Stefan. Not my fault you can't be bothered to actually play the game. Second point. Kieran does not hamper the team at any point. Lethe does. Lethe either has transformation problems and is doing squat for half of a battle or she's taking a valuable resource from better units who (on top of flat out being better than Lethe) use the resource better than her. Tier list standings: Muarim Nephenee Mordi Lethe Mordi and Muarim's advantage over Lethe is that their attack is high enough for them to continue to be useful for a while once the lategame is reached. They are in no way 'flat out better' than her. In fact, without the band, they are both rather useless since they start out unshifted and only transform come the final few turns. You're still missing the point. You're not supposed to be trying to prove if Lethe is a good unit or not. You're supposed to be trying to prove that she's better than Stefan. She is the second-best unit on the team before Stefan joins. After he joins, she is still superior to him due to superior movement and defenses. He only gets better when her offense fails to upgrade to a silver level at chapter 23. She is fast enough to double almost all enemies before then, rendering his SPD lead useless, and Stefan's attack is overkill at best at this point as well, rendering Lethe's movement and defensive advantages superior to him in every way for the majority of the game. First off, next time you try crying foul, make sure that I'm actually guilty of the charge. I generously gave Stefan only level 16 and not 18 against a level 16 Lethe who can't gain Exp if she's untransformed on the battlefield.Second point. Since when is Lethe the second best unit on the field? Ever? Titania's better than her. Mordecai's better than her. That's two units better than her the second she joins. Rolf, Ilyana and Soren are all better units to fight Chapter 12 Ravens with. So where are you coming up with this nonsense? LMAO. No. Mordi is not better than her. His base SPD is only 11 when undemi-shifted. In chapter 10 alone, he will fail to double about half the enemies on the map. Even at max level undemied, his SPD is only 20. He can't even fight until turn 5 due to having a starting gauge of 0. Even if he was involved in the 'heaviest' fighting, it would still lose out to Lethe's ability to aid out beforehand with all the other fighting (and he would not likely get all that many kills anyways). Until the demiband comes along, Lethe trounces him toughly. Can't fight for most of the map and risks not being able to double even when he does. Even after it comes, he has only 12-13 AS when demied. On chapter 16 alone, this means he cannot double anything except for the Armor-slayer wielding mymerdion, the soldiers and fighters, one mage, priests, and the knights. That's less than half the enemies on the chapter. He only starts to beat Lethe when her damage finally starts to become sub-par (around chapter 23) and his single massive hits outstrip hers. Mordi is in no way superior to Lethe throughout the early and mid game. Now... as for the charge... You made Stefan level 10 for chapter 18. That means he gained two level-ups when his primary foes are unpromoted units. If he didn't get any Exp at all, I simply do not see how this is possible without drooling over him like a fanboy. If all I need is 30 Att to send everything on a one-way ticket to Timbucktoo, what makes 33 Att so much more special? Oh, I dunno, the fact that the weapon will be in use for more than one chapter maybe? After that initial chapter, the boost in attack become more valuable? It just seems stupid to me to forge a weapon and then not max out its attack power if I am planning on having it see prolonged usage. Not that it matters. Lethe transforms on Turn 1. Lethe transforms back on Turn 5. There's no reason for her to have the Demi Band for the start of any battle. So now, let's field Muarim and Lethe. Muarim will hold the Demi Band until Turn 5 and then he'll trade it to Lethe. Now we have 1 Cat and 1... oh wait, Muarim's back to 0 guage and is in Laguz form instead of Tiger? Oops. Guess we still have a useless unit on the field. If we give Lethe the DB from the start, we sacrifice her stats pointlessly. If we try to get cute, we still end up with a unit that can't attack and can't do anything on the field. That's why Muarim and Mordecai are both better recepients of the DB than Lethe. Sure, they sacrifice their stats as well. But it doesn't matter since both are still superior to a non DB Lethe. Solution. Field only one Laguz. Regardless of which laguz you field, you will have problems. Field Mordi? He needs the demi since his gauge is 0, so Lethe shifts out on turn 5 and Muarim can't fight until turn 4. Muarim? Same thing except switch it to Mordi on turn 5. Lethe? Neither of the other Laguz can fight until turn 5. No matter which Laguz you field with the band, you won't be able to use the other until turn 4/5 or will be losing one on turn 5. This is why you do not field more than one Laguz ever. When debating Lethe, that one Laguz just happens to be... wait for it... Lethe! ou need to handicap Stefan so Lethe can tie? I thank you for forfeiting an argument you couldn't win, real sportsman-like of you. Credit to GJ for the actual wording but fuck it, we both know how stupid your comment is.That's like saying "if Elves didn't have any tech, Orcs would steamroll them". I was going to use a sports analogy but hell, I thought a Warcraft 3 one might resonate more with you. Actually a Age of Empires II or Civ III analogy would have worked better as I don't actually play WCIII except for when friends are over and want to play DotA. Anyways, the point I am making is that the reason Stefan is better is because Stefan is capable of upgrading his weapons at that point. Lethe, however, is screwed by the system since her weapon is locked, meaning she is stuck wielding steel into the endgame. If her claws could be upgraded to a silver-equiv, she would be doing MUCH better. In fact, she would be better than Mordi for sure (Mordi can't double, Lethe can) and might even be fighting it out with Muarim for best beast Laguz (Lethe doubles far more reliably, but Muarim hits harder and has better defenses; not that it matters seeing as this is not about him). With the very first sentence, I acknowledged that the reason he was better was the silver. It really should not have been a issue beyond that. I didn't know how to answer this so I went to #feto for a solution. Be happy, Paperblade wanted to insult you for your stance on gay marriage. We've got to stop here. What are you trying to prove at this point? That Lethe is better than Stefan? How are you doing that? Lethe's offense is at best equal to Stefan holding an Iron Blade and this is when she's transformed. Her defense is barely better than Stefan's and Stefan is already at a point where his defense makes him a monster. And then Lethe has transformation problems when Stefan DOESN'T. You can address ways to HELP those problems but you still forget the fact that even if Lethe was a Cat for 100% of the game with no penalties, Stefan is statistically better from the moment that he joins until Ashnard hits the ground. As I mentioned above, you proved Lethe is usable. I proved Stefan is better than Lethe. Debate over. I find that picture very suiting. A arrogant ass snatching a book away from the clearly intelligent and smart protagonist and insulting her for her ability to read and comprehend while holding the book upside down before he heads off on a misguided attempt to kill something he thinks is evil while the person he insulted finds out the truth. Doubly so since you seem to be putting yourself in the shoes of Gaston. Now, onto the actual counter... I've shown that Lethe is better, one of the best in fact, units in the early game. I've shown that, even after Stefan comes, her superior movement and durability wins out over Stefan's overkill offense. I've shown that you are overstating her inability to fight, ignoring the cure for said inability due to your own short-sightedness, and ignoring gameflow for your own needs to state that Stefan was better. Your posts have been largely ad-hominim attacks if not outright contradictory. I've even started using quotes from your own posts to fight your own posts making this a two on one debate with you being on both teams (meaning you will paradoxically both lose and win it seems). You attributed yourself to a Disney villain who thinks the world revolves around him and rips on the intelligent protagonist. You've demonstrated not once, but twice, that you do not understand the game mechanics (Astra and level-ups) or even have a basic comprehension of how the game is played (Mordi's speed, Lethe's early chapter contributions). Your posts have largely consisted of you ranting about how overkill Stefan's offense and how Lethe has to deal with untransforming without bringing anything new as the debate progressed. Your ranting about Stefan's offense is a double standard seeing as you both praise his offense, then knock Lethe for 'what's the point of better offense if you are already dealing enough' AND YOU EVEN HAD THE STANDARD KNOCK ITSELF (Only powering up the sword by +2 while adoring his offensive potential). You didn't even prove that Stefan was better than Lethe in your own arguments. You only proved that Stefan can overkill offense and SPD for a portion of the game when other units can do that as well, then remains useful into the endgame while Lethe does not. I showed how Lethe is a valuable contribution to the team throughout the early chapters, being a powerful addition before Stefan even joins. Then, once he does, his potential attack and SPD are overkill and inferior to her movement and defense before silver weapons roll around and he finally starts to pull ahead. Lethe helps the team out much more throughout the early and midgame, and thusly is far superior to Stefan, who overkills the mid and only pulls ahead of her in the late game; when she gets screwed by the system. It is sad when the one point you made was something I said in my OP (that Stefan is better once the late-game hits). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I find that picture very suiting. A arrogant ass snatching a book away from the clearly intelligent and smart protagonist and insulting her for her ability to read and comprehend while holding the book upside down before he heads off on a misguided attempt to kill something he thinks is evil while the person he insulted finds out the truth. Doubly so since you seem to be putting yourself in the shoes of Gaston. You attributed yourself to a Disney villain who thinks the world revolves around him and rips on the intelligent protagonist. You've gone too far now, Snowy. Insulting Gaston? That's just wrong, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeaderR Elliot Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) Now, the first mistake you made was the bolded part. First off, this isn't Easy Mode where 8~9 people hit 20/20. This is Hard Mode. And in Hard Mode, there's a severe Exp cut. That is true. However, this is EASY MODE we're talking about! You receive 15 more EXP per kill than on hard mode and get a 5 bonus to your battle-base EXP. I've personally gotten 10 units to 20/20 on my first run, when I didn't understand how to properly build a team/use staves for EXP/so-forth. While using a smaller team means they will reach 20/20 sooner (meaning a bit more of mid-late power), you can get more than just 8 to max level on easy. This confuses me a bit... it is easy or hard mode? If it is hard mode it makes sense but if is hard things would change... EDIT: My first quoting and it links to another topic? Edited May 24, 2011 by LeaderR Elliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 This confuses me a bit... it is easy or hard mode? If it is hard mode it makes sense but if is hard things would change... EDIT: My first quoting and it links to another topic? As I understood it at least, that particular statement was directed at Life's personal playthrough (referenced earlier in the debate) which was on easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) As I understood it at least, that particular statement was directed at Life's personal playthrough (referenced earlier in the debate) which was on easy. Umm... what? I can't remember the last time I chose the easiest mode possible for a Fire Emblem game if I could do the hardest one. Oh, except for H1 FE12 and FE5 Elite Mode. And response coming soon since my response will be the one that ends the debate In case that made no sense, I have never played Easy Mode in FE9. Only Normal and Hard (first run was on Normal, every subsequent has been on Hard including my current one). Edited June 16, 2011 by God of SF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I mean, I once had a dream to marry Snowy and Kanami, and they would make me beef stew for breakfast every morning. So, if you put Snowy up against Life.... ?????? ?????? Snowy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) Once again, aiming for the problems in your logic. Wow. You missed the point by a huge-ass margin. Lethe can help out on either the beach or the main push for the shoreline. Titania suffers movement penalties due to the sand and Marcia uses lances and is stuck fighting axe-wielding pirates. While it is true that Mia can potentially handle the entire beach on her own, or at worse, with mage backup, that exposes both to the potential of death by 1000 cuts type demise. Plus a level 11 Mia on chapter 9? I don't think that's feasible without some favoritism on her part seeing as she joined at level 6 only two chapters ago. Besides, better question, what if we are not using Mia? Mia is the only other sword-user other than Ike on the map (and Ike is needed to sieze). It's true that the items in the villages are not the most valuable (a Talisman and Restore), but are worth 10000 gold if both are sold (which is a sizable amount, even with the Gallia pay-off coming up soon). Lethe being capable of heading onto the beach means you will be capable of netting the EXP from Nedata and getting that gold with ease even if Mia is not played. Snowy, if I missed the point by a huge margin, then you veered off to the other side of the world. Marcia comes on Turn 5. That beach should be cleared out by Turn 3 maximum. On my own run here, I had Titania (who did relatively little killing since she went south but helped out), 11 Mia, 8 Soren, Rhys and Rolf cleaning out the beach. It was clean before Marcia even popped up. And Marcia's going south because she needs to be, you know, recruited and she flies TOWARDS Ike. Next time you argue, make sure you play the game first. And level 11 Mia in Chapter 9 is essentially nothing considering the fuckloads of BExp we have up to now (1500+ when it costs around 400 to take Mia up to level 10). I took Interceptor's advice and BExp'd Mia and Boyd to the point where Boyd would ORKO Armours and Mia would do considerable damage with the Armourslayer (25 Mt and 6 AS doubles all the Knights on the map (she's fighting the ones on the left) and leaves the Knights with low single digit HP. Why NOT sink ~400 BExp into Mia to do that? It makes Chapter 8 so much easier and easily justifies a level 11 Mia in Chapter 9. Lethe on the beach does NOTHING. Lethe getting credit as a yellow unit is pointless but even if we put her on the beach, there's no point. If you need Lethe to help you at any point during this chapter, you're not playing efficiently. So arguing that Nedata doesn't pose much of a threat on his own if Mia is played (which she may not be) so that Lethe is not needed on the beach is not a losing battle, but pointing out that you can't control who Lethe attacks (and that she doesn't gain EXP) is not a losing battle?Besides, I never said Lethe was a bad unit to send south. I think she's perfectly viable down there as well. It's just that she is not confined to having to head south and can head north just as well without any serious problems due to the sand. Considering that Mia may not be played, if she isn't, Lethe is really the only choice you really have to send onto the beach if you want to kill the pirates. Mia is free up until the start of Chapter 10. Like it or not, she's getting played in Chapter 9. And for the record, Lethe is a bad unit to send north AND south. Why? Because she isn't needed. If you can't complete the chapter in 8 turns (which includes getting both villages and recruiting Marcia) without using Lethe, that's not a testament to how good Lethe is. That shows how bad of a player you are. You have the resources to make the chapter easy without using Lethe or Mordecai. Sure they make it easier but they can't speed the chapter up. Either way, we're looking at an 8 turn clear thanks to Marcia showing up late. Therefore, Lethe does nothing of value here since she gains absolutely nothing (Titania in retrospect gains a level from the Kotaff kill). That is true. However, this is EASY MODE we're talking about! You receive 15 more EXP per kill than on hard mode and get a 5 bonus to your battle-base EXP. I've personally gotten 10 units to 20/20 on my first run, when I didn't understand how to properly build a team/use staves for EXP/so-forth. While using a smaller team means they will reach 20/20 sooner (meaning a bit more of mid-late power), you can get more than just 8 to max level on easy.Eh. Doesn't really matter overall I guess though. Something doesn't seem quite right here. However, this is EASY MODE we're talking about! You receive 15 more EXP per kill than on hard mode and get a 5 bonus to your battle-base EXP. I've personally gotten 10 units to 20/20 on my first run, when I didn't understand how to properly build a team/use staves for EXP/so-forth. Not quite there. However, this is EASY MODE we're talking about! You receive 15 more EXP per kill than on hard mode and get a 5 bonus to your battle-base EXP. Almost... However, this is EASY MODE we're talking about! Nearly there... EASY MODE Umm... I guess that explains the problems with your numbers. You've never played Normal Mode, let alone Hard. Wow. Okay. First off, I didn't say she should get Bexp. The part of that paragraph I wrote was assuming she went without getting a single drop of EXP (at which point, she needs .94 levels per chapter). The second part I wrote was if you DECIDED to give her Bexp. At which point I simply divided up the available Bexp by 14 then gave that amount to Lethe (Lethe receiving an equal share among a large-sized team) and even then I assumed the worst possible useage for it (her final level-ups, which are the most expensive). So yea, the question of Bexp was already rendered moot as the option to go without was already provided and the option to use Bexp was also given a 'worst case scenario' outlook.Secondly... Why shouldn't Lethe ever get Bexp? She is a unit on the team and, though her pre-promote status will keep her ahead of the curve until just about after the midpoint, eventually the enemies will start to catch up. You don't get it. This isn't CommunistFE where everything is equal to every unit. We don't allocate the same number of kills to Rolf as we do to Titania. Lethe doesn't get the same amount of BExp as Mia or Boyd. It just doesn't happen. Certain units use resource x better than others so they are the ones who get that resource. Nephenee uses BExp a hell of a lot better than Lethe because 527 BExp on base Nephenee is worth 5 levels and puts her in the range to 2HKO stuff. In return, that same 527 BExp is barely 3 levels and doesn't improve her performance from a 1RKO to a 1HKO. Nephenee gains +2 Atk and +3 AS from that BExp, allowing her to now double stuff in Chapter 11 like 9 AS Sword Knights or Mages. Lethe gains +1 Atk and +2 AS which don't mean squat since she's already 1RKOing everything on the map at base level (Boss and Knights aside). That BExp on her is a waste. The point here isn't to show that Nephenee uses BExp better than Lethe. It's to show that BExp is best used on units who will immediately have a change in performance from a couple of levels. And Lethe's pre-promoted status means that any BExp thrown her way has an even greater cost to it since it's worth almost double a non-promoted unit's take. The calculations page? WHAT?!?!?! Is that where you're getting this silly notion from? Life, the calculations page deals solely with game mechanics for things like doubling and how much Exp is obtained for a kill. Level-ups are not mentioned at all, and for a good reason. You see, when a unit levels up, they have a percent chance to increase in a certain statistic. If a unit has a 40% growth rate, then four out of every ten level-ups they will gain a stat. So a unit that has leveled up twice with a 40% growth rate has a 80% chance of having gotten the statistic and only a 20% chance of not having gotten one at all. If we were to do it by your method though, that unit would have to level up three times in order to get just one point. By your logic, the first level-up of any unit would be a empty level-up, unless it is a Laguz HP growth, since no character has a 100% growth rate. It only takes beating the prologue (and not having outright horrid luck) and seeing Ike level-up once to know that this is not true. <@SevenDeadlySins> he claimed that someone with 40% strength has an 80% chance to gain that stat in 2 levels<@Life> WHAT <@Life> WHERE <@SevenDeadlySins> SOMEONE SLEPT THROUGH PROBABILITIES Let's flip a coin. 50% of the time, it lands on heads. 50% of the time, it lands on tails. So we flip it and it lands heads. Does that mean that the coin has a 100% chance to land on tails for the next flip? So let's flip it again. And... heads. Again. Well, I thought we had a 100% chance of getting tails! I mean, clearly you state so! [spoiler=Actual proper math]The true math works like this: Lethe has a 50% chance of growing Str on any given level. Her Spd has a 70% growth rate. Thus, the percentage chances of Lethe growing stats looks like thus: Str: L: 12S 13S 14S 15S 4 50% 50% 0% 0% 5 25% 50% 25% 0% 6 13% 38% 38% 13% Spd: L 12S 13S 14S 15S 4 30% 70% 0% 0% 5 9% 42% 49% 0% 6 3% 19% 45% 34% That would be the correct math. At level 6, Lethe 13- Str 50% of the time and 14+ Str 50% of the time. She also has 13- Spd 22% of the time and 14+ Spd 79% of the time (on average). I got lazy with decimals but the math is correct. While a unit with a 40% GR does gain a level up in that stat 4 times every 10 levels on average, there is no self-correcting mechanism that forces 4 level-ups of that stat every 10 levels. Basically, you slept through basic math and I will treat any numbers you pull from this point onwards with incredible caution. EDIT: To be honest, if you SOMEHOW win this debate at this point, I will throw back about 5 Jaegarbombs and then toss myself off of a cliff. Seriously. There's no fucking way you can make such a basic mistake like calculating growths properly and still win a debate. It's like Palin saying "I can see Russia from my backyard" and everyone in America believing her and then voting her to be President. While this is indeed something worth considering, it doesn't actually counter the statement I made. I agree that, if Lethe can preform just as well with 20 STR and 23 luck as with 21 STR and 24 luck, that is a good thing. However, it doesn't mean you can just drop her STR and Luck down just because it ends up on a .5. Technically, those should be rounded up. I leave them as a 20-21 due to recognizing that it could be either way. However, putting a 20.5 as a 20 is a bad idea. As to the question of averages, it is true that a unit who needs a single stat-point to do good does run the risk of being screwed. However, even with a .55, it is more likely than not that the unit will not be screwed come that point in the level (on 55 out of a hundred runs, they will have the point). No, Snowy. This is just plain wrong because you don't understand how statistics work. Lethe doesn't have a 50% chance of having 20 Str vs. 21 Str. Lethe has a 50% chance of having 20 or under Str and a 50% chance of having 21 or over Str. The chance of her having 20 or 21 Str is the highest due to probabilities. Hence why I made her sit at 20 Str. 20 Str at level 8 is slightly under the average but 21 Str at level 8 is slightly over the average. Your argument holds more water if Lethe performs just as well under the average as she does over the average. I didn't drop her stats down to be mean or anything. I did it to HELP you. You are admitting to having a brain aneurysm? Let's see why: - Lethe deserves the Demi Band even though there are much better users for it, not to mention that Lethe starts with a full Cat gauge and the Demi Band effectively cuts her transformation boosts in half. - Lethe's gauge problems (AKA not being usable for the 2nd half of a map) are being handwaved. - Lethe's offense is clearly worse than Stefan's as proven through hard numbers while you continue to state the opposite. - Lethe is entitled to equal resources as everyone else even if she doesn't perform as well with them as person x does. - I had to give you a basic math lesson. Yeah. Brain aneurysm given. Thanks Snowy, it's just like Christmas! You don't get it, do you? It doesn't matter if Lethe won't actually be facing Danomill or not. What matters is that Danomill is the hardest enemy anyone can even fight up to that point and she still does impressively well. Lethe is a very good unit in the early game. Second best unit easily by a wide margin. If they let you upgrade her claws to be on-par with silver around chapter 23, she could easily make high, if not top, tier. For the entirety of the early game, Lethe will be a overwhelming force overcome only by Titania. Come mid game, she is still in the upper echelon of units. It's only the late-game that keeps her from being higher. Are you telling me that even though Lethe will not fight Danomill in a realistic playthrough, she deserves credit for doing well against him? What if Micaiah can ORKO Ike in 3-13 with Thani? Does she deserve credit for being able to do that even though the game doesn't let her physically reach him? What if FE4 Fin can ORKO every boss in Chapters 4 and 5? Should we give him credit for that even though he doesn't exist? What about Shinon in this game? Lethe cannot fight Danomill in a realistic efficient playthrough. She detransforms too early if you try to blast through or take the stealth route. I've tried. I couldn't make it to Danomill on time because the tight corridors are blocked by enemy mooks. Why are you giving her credit for something that she's not ever going to do? Kieran can match Muarim's offense with a forged axe upon joining and it won't be long before other units start to match up to him. Muarim's offense is still impressive. Boyd deals less damage than Titania, so is his offense suddenly not impressive simply because one other unit can match and/or surpass it? You forget that Lethe is a combat unit for 50% of the map and a useless character for the other 50%. If her combat isn't miles and away better than everyone else's WHILE she's transformed, that's a problem. See, I could have a good unit for 50% of the time or I could have a good unit for 100% of the time. Lethe is the first. Stefan is the second. So that comment of "Lethe isn't doing anything special" actually applies since Lethe needs to stand out in her combat to be as good as everyone else. This is bad news for Stefan then. His main advantage is that he deals more damage than other units during the midgame. Also, Lethe can reliably 2HKO almost all enemies, while other units are still incapable of doing so. Kieran (whom ties with Lethe) is not as fast as her for example and won't have as easy a time doubling the faster enemies. Snowy, Lethe can only 2HKO enemies when she's transformed. Which, ONCE AGAIN, is half of the time. You keep handwaving the fact that Lethe doesn't participate for half the map. If Keiran is only 80% as good as Lethe but is available 100% of the time, he's better. Why? Because Lethe is always operating at 50% of her full potential throughout the course of a whole map. Meanwhile, Keiran is operating at 80% of her full potential. And Stefan is operating at 105%, mind you. The 'real fighting' is laughable in chapter 16 as it consists mainly of punching Guy-I-Wish-Was-Oliver's face in. The only fighting even remotely hard in this chapter is going to happen while Lethe is still shifted. Plus, you know, Demiband. Lethe can use it and she is still above average with it on. First off, you STILL haven't secured the Demi Band for Lethe. Especially since we just got Muarim who's miles away better than her. But sure, let's give level 7 Lethe the Demi Band. 25 Atk and 16 AS. She doesn't double the Myrmidons anymore or the Sniper. In fact, the Sniper is now a 3HKO for Lethe since the Demi Band JUST puts her out of range of killing him. And Lethe has no supports to help her there. Also, if she was barely scoring a 1RKO on the Knights before the Demi Band, not anymore. They're a 3HKO for her with Lethe doing a paltry 10 damage to the 28 HP, 15 Def Knights. Kimaarsi is a 5RKO so she's not fighting him. Oh and she can't even 1HKO Thieves. Everything else is pretty much borderline. What about Stefan? 35 effective Atk with the Armourslayer puts Kimarsii at 2 HP so that's a 3HKO. Everything else is a 1RKO with the exception of the Knights but an Armourslayer solves that problem. And Stefan doesn't have transformation problems. Stefan is kicking Lethe's ass in his first real chapter of work and it only goes downhill from there for Lethe. Do you stay on topic ever? Stefan's S weapon-rank allows him to wield only four weapons that a B rank (what other sword users have) cannot. Silver swords/blades, the Runesword, and the VK. The VK is overkill and he won't likely be touching it anyways (especially if what you are saying about the iron blade is true, since then there is no point in wielding a unique weapon that can be saved until later when it is actually needed instead of using it in the early chapters when a buyable iron weapon is just as useful). The Runesword isn't even around, and neither are silver swords. That means the ONLY weapon Stefan can use that another sword user cannot that he might realistically use is that ONE silver blade. That is the ONLY advantage to his weapon rank at this point in the game! It wouldn't matter if he had a weapon ranking of SSS in kazoo's because there are none in the game. His weapon-ranking is meaningless outside of those two weapons (one of which would not be used at all. What's the point of this paragraph? He has S Swords. He never has any sword out of reach. This cannot possibly be a bad thing. Ever. Lethe at level 7 and demied has 25 offense. Stefan may have 3 more with a iron blade, but it does not matter. Lethe has superior movement, enough attack to reliably kill most everything, superior durability, and has been providing these things for a much longer time with the only cost being the demiband to do so. Your own ranting against Lethe, claiming her offense doesn't matter because it is overkill, also means Stefan can't use his primary midgame advantage since, it too, is overkill. Only on a very small group of units will he have an advantage over Lethe since he can double them. On everything else, Lethe's superior move and defenses will give her the advantage. No, it matters a lot. Lethe's already borderline on enemies after doubling. She's going to stop ORKOing Soldiers (fucking Soldiers) in Chapter 18 with the Demi Band at this rate. Hell, it might even be in Chapter 17-4. Lethe needs a full Str proc by then to continue ORKOing Soldiers since 26 Atk just 2HKOs them. That's 2 levels on average but she's got a 25% chance of not getting it. In Chapter 18, that number jumps to 28 Atk. That's not reliable for Lethe until level 13. But look! Stefan starts with 28 Atk and needs 2 levels on average to hit that number after WTD. 2 levels between 15 and 18 including the 4 Part Chapter 17? That's definitely happening. 6 levels for Lethe in the same time span just to match offense? Forget it. Before you say that Lethe has enough Attack to reliably kill stuff, check the enemy stats. Overkilling a enemy does not matter. The VK won't matter until after other sword-wielding units are capable of using it as well. If Stefan needs to use the VK at any point, it is a mark against him as he is using a one-of-a-kind weapon to pull off what Lethe is basically doing for free. It actually matters quite a lot. Stefan takes a hefty shot (like anyone, mind you) from both Oliver and Keyachey. Not to mention that Oliver heals back if he connects. The Vague Katti has a 40% chance of OHKOing Oliver while a simple Iron Blade won't 2HKO if Oliver heals up from a connection of Nosferatu (Level 9 Stefan leaves Oliver with 1 HP). But remember how Lethe was at best matching Stefan? Level 8 Lethe with no Demi Band is the exact same story. 28 Atk ends up leaving Oliver with 1 HP after the Nosferatu connection. Huh, that's the same as Stefan! That's a perfect example of where the Vague Katti is great and Stefan is the only wielder at this time. It doesn't need to critical to do its job. If Lethe was ORKOing Oliver, I'd say that you're right. But she also can't ORKO Oliver. She and Stefan are in the same leaky boat until Stefan jumps onto his new Ski-Doo and lets Lethe drown alone. Because Stefan doesn't critical 85% of the time at full HP. Assuming the enemy has 0 luck, the most he can potentially pull off at full HP is 64% critical rating by having max level and wielding the VK. Besides, did you even read the post? 'Even if that person ends up being Stefan'. It does not matter who the person is. The VK is going to the person who has wrath (assuming they can wield swords). Even if Stefan is the person who ends up using wrath, and thusly the VK, he won't be touching the VK until he actually gets wrath and can thusly score high critical rates and not waste weapon uses. And yes, him using the VK beforehand IS a waste since his offense, by your own admission, is good enough for him to preform without it. That makes this whole thing moot as he won't be touching the sword at all until wrath. Gamble says hi since if I recall correctly, there's no competition over it at all. And while Stefan's supports are usually ass, his Heaven affinity is good for 5+ Acc which helps Gamble a lot. Oh and that's 100 Crit right there. 65+ Hit but Stefan will crit for sure? And he can do it at full HP without worrying about dying? Yes, please. You are preaching to the choir (sort of) on the issue of Mist and the SS. However, even if Mist does not use the SS, Stefan will not be using it. Even assuming he gets both dusts and the mage band he manages only 24 ATT with it. His endgame attack with a Soren support is only going to be, like, 27. Why should he wield it? Mia with both dusts and the band and her supports cranks out 33 attack with the SS. Zihark cranks out less, but can use wrath due to his evade. Ike manages 18 and can potentially wrath with it (though it means forging Aether). So what is Stefan's advantage with the SS that makes him better? It's not about Stefan being the best SS user or not (and for the record, Mia isn't getting either dust or the band unless you're in love with her a la Ether). It's about the fact that Stefan has 1~2 range and Lethe doesn't. End of argument. Why not? Ignoring the question of gems for now, why can't Lethe use the demi-band? Not counting the herons, you will likely be fielding only one Laguz at most. Lethe is powerful for most of the early and mid game and only starts to taper off in the late game. Your own complaints against her are largely leveled against her transform gauge, and the demi-band alleviates that problem entirely. Yes, Mordi and Muarim can also use it, but as stated before, all three are within four spaces of each other right now. If it wasn't for Nephenee, they would all be grouped together. That is way too close to point at one of them and say 'you will not get the demi ever' or another and say 'you will always get the demi'.Secondly, why SHOULDN'T Lethe get access to Gems? The reason we give them to Reyson is because he can canto people to complete a chapter faster. However, if Reyson doesn't need to be shifted to complete a chapter earlier or is already shifted, why not use one on a undemied Lethe? Gems: Lethe promoting on turn 1 will not make a chapter go by a turn faster. Reyson promoting on Turn 1 will. Especially with a chapter like 20, 21, 24, 25 and 26. Whoops, that's 5 chapters and only 4 uses. Looks like Lethe isn't eating a stone. Demi Band: As I proved earlier, Lethe fails to kill unpromoted enemies as early as Chapter 18 with that thing on. Forget it at that point. We already know that you don't play efficiently but when you're arguing two characters, we assume some sort of efficiency. Hence something stupid like "Reyson doesn't need all the Laguz Stones" when he clearly saves turns being able to allow 4 units to act again isn't accepted here. Good. Except that's not my argument at all. That's your bastardized interpretation that you made up on a whim to suit your needs. Here is my argument.Fact: If Lethe is undemied and cannot use the gems, she will eventually untransform. Fact: When she untransforms, she cannot counter and will thusly be placed on the back lines. Fact: The units in the back tend to be squishy and cannot take a lot of damage Fact: Enemies sometimes break through the back lines. Fact: If there is someone who cannot counter, the enemies will target them over others. Conclusion: If we must use Lethe without the band, then when she untransforms, we will be placed on the back lines. While she is there, we should use her to absorb the impact from any units who break through the front lines so that they do not target other units on the backlines. We can be near-guarenteed that they will attack her if so, so reliability is not the issue. By doing so, she can increase her gauge up faster to get back into the fight. Now, I am not saying that, while untransformed, she is better that Stefan. I am saying that she is not useless though, and if untransforming is a issue, that is key. It is a period of time where her utility will be less and thusly stefan is better then. However, her value is not equal to 0 either and she should not be treated as such. Fact: Lethe is equal to Stefan when transformed and useless when she is Beast Tribe. Logical conclusion: Lethe is inferior to Stefan simply because of that damn gauge. Lethe's weight means she can shove more, but that is irrelevant. What matters is that she is not useless and can still help the team out even when unshifted. Bullshit, that is very relevant. You should have used this kind of argument to show how Lethe saves turns but hey, it's your argument, not mine. You easily had a chance to win this one and failed to do so. For this chapter, yes. There are not a lot of enemies outside of the chest rooms and it is debatable how many of those you will even enter seeing as the full guard and Dracoshield are the only items of notable value (unless you REALLY value the Bolting). Bolting is 2+ Mt on the free Meteor with Calill. That's valuable since it allows us to, you know, 1 Turn chapter 22. And the real fighting is AT the throne room. I count 12 enemies there with another 4 guarding the Full Guard room. Sucks to be Lethe since she's useless there. Now THAT'S a lot of fighting. I have a tendency to mix up 18 and 19. I apologize. And it is really easy to clear this map already. In fact, now that your fliers and paladins are promoted, I would be curious to see how Stefan is keeping up with the group if you don't take the time out to recruit Shinon. Plus, demi. Also, why would Reyson be a sho-in for the ring? His own actual movement is pretty low until he's shifted, meaning for all those times he is not, it's not worth a whole lot on him. Even when he is shifted, it's use is still far more situational than with other units. 1. Demi Band doesn't fly anymore. Lethe isn't killing anything at this point. The only thing she 1RKOs with 26 Atk is the Archer (OOOOH) and Mages/Sages. Not to mention that she, you know, spends the first 4 turns transformed and you're just turning her into a vastly inferior version of Stefan for the sake of keeping her going. 2. A 26 Atk unit does not deserve the Knight Ring. She's borderline killing ARCHERS. That's how shitty Lethe is. Okay. Why does this matter? You will be well on your way up the slope already by the time they arrive. Not to mention that Stefan won't be able to touch them (other units use the SS better. Unless he got wrath, they will have it) anyways. As for Shiharam, multiple units get a WTA on him. Ike, Mia, Zihark, Marcia, and Makalov all get one as well. Not to mention that anyone who can wield a axe (all your paladins) will be at a WTN. Face it. Stefan is useless here. Lethe's movement lead will allow her to more than carry the day; especially if she uses the God-damned demiband! No more griping about transform issues for you! Lethe still isn't killing stuff with the Demi Band equipped. At level 11, she's got 27 Atk. She barely kills Archers and then Mages/Sages here. That "God-damned demiband" is going to waste on her. And a rescue-drop of Stefan can have him kill Shihiram easily on something like Turn 3 and Ike can seize. 12 Stefan has 32 Atk with the Vague Katti and something stupid like 63 Crit. That's an 86% chance of criticalling one of his two hits. If he criticals once, Shihiram will die if someone sneezes on him. If he gets both (happens almost 40% of the time), Shihiram is dinner. Lethe can never produce anything like that during her lifetime (fun fact, Shihiram is also immune to arrows thanks to a Full Guard). Can you find me anyone who could possibly replicate this performance? Oh and Gamble!Stefan has 80+ displayed Hit on Shihiram with 100 Crit. Pretty cool. Too bad Stefan won't be part of the rescue-drop either, eh? Why not? 39 Atk with the Laguzslayer (Level 12+) means that he 4HKOs Ena (52 HP, 25 Def). With a crit, that's a 1RKO. How many other units can produce that kind of offense? Oh and Mia needs A Rhys to be nearby (forcing him to also be rescue-chained) along with sitting at 20/12, just before you say her name instinctively. I'm done here. At this point, I'm repeating myself. Stefan puts on a performance that is unmatched by so many people when it comes to boss-slaying, never mind Lethe. And I have proved that Stefan > Lethe. This debate is now closed. Edited June 17, 2011 by God of SF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 So I can officially vote now right? Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I'd also like to vote myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted June 19, 2011 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 Yeah, vote away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 So I can officially vote now right? Right? Not until you get off your suspension, bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I vote for Life Admiral. That argument was bad Snowy and you should feel bad. First of all, WTH at the idea of Nedata being a hard boss. Second of all, too much focus on level 20 stats for Lethe when most units will not reach level 20. Thirdly and most importantly, you were arguing in favor of Lethe getting the Demi Band. I need to remind you that Lethe getting the Demi Band is akin to shooting yourself in the foot. Lethe transforms on the first turn anyway, so you're essentially gimping her stats for no reason. Basically, Life had to explain to you why this was a bad idea and he was arguing for Stefan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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