Touhou NOCfia - Game Over

[Bluedoom]

Oh yeah BBM and I still think that a lot of the Blitz votes looked really similar; go figure, I cbf to make out who's definite scum when half of them are "Blitz's D1 play sucked." and the other half of them are "BLITZ AND HIS ANTICS HE SUCH A MORON LET'S LYNCH HIM!"

[CT075]

agh

listpost because it's the fastest thing i can do for now

Boron seems... missable. Occasionally while rereading I forgot that she was playing this game. Additionally, she's been on basically every major wagon (i'm too jetlagged to actually analyze atm but it's worth thinking about)

I'm still not seeing what makes Marth so scummy.

Gonna leave this here until the morning so I can gather my thoughts

##vote Boron

[Bluedoom]

Ok is scorri not capable of voting this phase or was Objection's card just for plast day phase?

[Kaoz]

Day 4.2 Votals

Bluedoom (3): BBM, Sangyul, Essbee

Sangyul (2): Paperblade, CT075

kirsche (1): Bluedoom

Paperblade (1): Strege

scorri (1): kirsche

Not voting (8): Elieson, Proto, Manix, scorri, Shadoweh, Shinori, SSG, Xin'dy

The day ends in 36 hours, 14 minutes. With 16 alive, hammer is required and it takes 9 to lynch.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Kaoz

[Zkirsche]

Ok is scorri not capable of voting this phase or was Objection's card just for plast day phase?

Judging by how she's back on the votals, its effects have finished now.

Also I'm not sure how you're playing your role atm but can you swap someone who doesn't have a card with someone who has a card, because if so it might be worth just sending people's card to PB and just hope he's town and thus make teh best use out of them.

[Bluedoom]

Well technically don't people still have their cards, only that they're used up? So I GUESS it could work, I'm actually not sure about that.

[SB.]

bleh, the only thing i got was something on scorri. She's been on the first two lynches, and was voting for objection previously (although her case on him was brief, and she didn't even mention him until when she voted him here - the only reason she had was claim timing too.) Manix was on all three lynches, but only on objection after the selfvote (and i don't think he's scum either way.)

kevin: she's not on the day 3 votals because of objection's silence stunt.

apparently rein can vote when he's dead, neat

I think some cards work better on their original person. Mine gets more shots if I fulfill a certain condition with my regular role, and I think baldrick's did too? Starting to doubt scum!Marth a little, I dunno. I might go and reread now. Since I'm not so certain, gonna shift over for now.

##Unvote

##Vote: SSG

see my last post on her.

[Zkirsche]

Oh forgot to respond to this:

define interesting in this case, if you wouldn't mind

because saying that on its own doesn't mean much to anyone and there might be something else under it, iunno

My bad, I'm saying he's made a good point. I'll let Boron respond to it before making a judgement though.

I think some cards work better on their original person. Mine gets more shots if I fulfill a certain condition with my regular role, and I think baldrick's did too? Starting to doubt scum!Marth a little, I dunno. I might go and reread now. Since I'm not so certain, gonna shift over for now.

Some do, but I'm getting the impression many are one-shot and I'd much rather that one-shot be in the hands of a trusted townie than just any randomer. BBM would be a better choice but I don't think he's used his card yet (If he has one of course).

We could always card claim and have Marth confirm the extravagant claims by giving their cards to PB or someone else.

[BBM]

@Manix- There was a reason I asked but whatever.

@Paperblade- I answered BT's 159 in 160, assuming the question you're talking about is why I agreed with Shinori about NNR. As for 380, yeah, I did get Kay mislynched for defending someone without giving any reasoning in CYOC, but that doesn't mean it wasn't scummy, especially as she was Cop and should have tried harder to save a clear. The rest of it about Marth still holds in any case. And to be perfectly honest, I talked about why Rein died in 1086 specifically because I knew it would bug you. I'm an ass like that.

IDK I'll read Boron's ISO again, but to catch your point about her blending in I'd need to reread the whole thread to catch when she makes her votes in relation to others. The impressions I got were that while she was on the main wagons quite a lot, it didn't really feel that much like sheeping to me. I think that in all the cases she had something of her own to add, and she was also a fairly early vote on two of them, IIRC.

[Zkirsche]

We could always card claim and have Marth confirm the extravagant claims by giving their cards to PB or someone else.

I would like thoughts on this idea.

[BBM]

Okay well, I went through Boron again and I don't agree with Paperblade. Yeah she was on the main wagons but I don't really see anything scummy that she said. I disagree with what you said about her assessment of Kirsche's early Marth vote. Yeah, early votes are often kind of graspy, but as long as they're serious, they shouldn't be based on just claiming Ninja.

I don't really like how Cam came in with Boron being missable right after Paperblade had started his case there. Also apparently talking about 2 people is a listpost?

Out of Paperblade's reread post, the point that I agreed with the most was his Strege point about Strege never being on any of the wagons, so I followed it up.

Strege sort of semi-agreed with Baldrick on D1 when he was pushing me, in that he could also "see scum motive" in outing the info that I did, but ultimately took it back. However, he actually said very little about Baldrick himself on D1, despite him being the largest wagon. All he said was that his reads were lacking, which wasn't a great observation to make seeing as Baldrick announced himself that he had no scumreads. Anything else he said about Baldrick was in relation to other people (for example talking about Paperblade's Baldrick suspicion).

In earlyish D2, he mentions Blitz in 402 and said that he was a null read due to just not really being there enough. Then the next time he mentions Blitz is all the way in 618, after the wagon is pretty much solidified, and only then does he actually point out anything scummy that Blitz has done. He actually says that Blitz is really really scummy in this post, so the complete avoidance of Blitz up to that point is really really weird.

On D3, in 783, he says that he's nullreading Objection and that he finds Marth worse, but he only finds Marth himself mildly scummy. His Objection thing is sort of weird because he had a point about Objection in D1 about how he was echoing people's opinions a lot, so this is the second thing that he's found scummy about Objection, and generally even if the suspicions are small, if they last over 3 day phases, they're not just a nullish read. In 809 he says that he finds Marth more townie because of the claim, and would therefore prefer Objection to him. However, he's made no attempt to push Objection since 783, so presumably he's still got only a very tiny scumread there, so why would he prefer Objection at all?

tl dr; it feels like Strege has been cheerleading wagons along while most of the time pushing someone completely separate.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Strege

[Zkirsche]

they shouldn't be based on just claiming Ninja.

Except that my vote wasn't just based on that.

[BBM]

Except that my vote wasn't just based on that.

Oh, both Boron's post and Paperblade's response to it gave me the impression it was, so I was too lazy to actually check your first Marth vote. So nvm I guess Boron's comment there was sort of a misrep. Still not really enough.

[Zkirsche]

Wait that comment had nothing to do with my vote on Marth it was about my vote on Blitz.

I actually don't think kirsche's initial vote on Blitz was bad, but his later post where he says "he made the scummiest move but he wasn't particularly scummy" doesn't sit well with me. []

My first vote was on Blitz then I switched to Marth.

[scorri]

Kirsche: I didn't answer cause I missed it at first and then got removed from the game for the day. Which is why I'm not on the D3 votals.

I got off of Objection, cause he was never a huge scum read of mine tbh. I found his claim weird due to the timing of it which pinged my radar as maybe scum trying to get their claim out but didn't find him super objectional. Then he went and randomly removed me from the day phase and I had literally no clue what to think of him.

Also... wrt me being on all the main bandwagons... Didn't I respond to that yesterday? Either way, I voted Baldrick for my own reasons, not everyone elses and then I voted Blitz and was the first one on him. I found him scummy and stuck with it. You do realize that people will end up on bandwagons, yes? If they don't, we won't get a lynch. We need people to consolidate.

As for me being the one to kill Neko, I don't quite know how to defend against that except say it wasn't me?

Anyways, moving on to other things

##Vote:Elieson

for reasons as of yesterday.

Also, don't think a massclaim would help or hurt especially. Wouldn't mind doing it, but wouldn't actively support it I guess? Same with card claiming. My card is useless so I wouldn't mind claiming it, but there might be reasons for other people to not claim theirs. I don't really care one way or the other is I guess my final thoughts.

[Sunwoo]

Holy crap Paper, links would be nice so I don't have to manually flip back pages upon pages to find the posts you're talking about.

I feel like during D1, Boron was just kind of blending in with everyone else. This bothers me. A lot of her posts were just "Oh I checked the ISO of whoever we're talking about a lot and I think X" which seems kind of bland.

Being the first serious vote on Baldrick, questioning kirsche's vote on Marth, continuing to push Baldrick, and asking people to elaborate on stuff they said is blending in. Okay.

As for the ISO checking, I can't tell whether you're just saying about D1 or in general but if it's the latter case, this game has over 60 pages, and unlike smaller games I can't read through the whole thing in one sitting with my sanity guaranteed. It's not like I JUST look at ISOs either. When I see something that catches my attention, I go to that post directly so I can see the context and others' reactions to it. It's better than not looking back at all.

Marth crumbs his role yet again in 419, if he's scum he obviously decided exactly what to fakeclaim very early. He also raises a point that I was seeing too: Boron doesn't really seem to have any reads. Also, apparently Boron said she was going to read the iso of Kevin and myself, but never commented on the results of this. Sup?Boron's excuses in 444 is she was busy

Dude, does a Blitz vote right on top of the same page as Marth's post 419 not indicate that I have scum reads? Also, take Marth's statement and apply it to all the other players. Did the other more active players "seem to have any reads", at least more so than me? More definitive reads? Because if this is false, then this is singling me specifically out.

Okay, in 448 Boron has actually read over the ISOs now. I don't think your comment on Kevin is fair, do you really expect someone to have a real scumread for their first vote?

That's fair enough on kirsche's vote, most people don't have real scum reads for their first vote. What do you think about the rest of my comments on kirsche that didn't have to do with his vote?

Something else that bothers me about Boron: Blitz claims, SB+Manix get on his case, Boron shows up, fake dayvig. Now, Prims said that anonymous actions can be set to be used at a specific time for w/e reason, but this feels like it was used right when Blitz was really going downhill.

I wasn't responsible for that, and it's not particularly fair for you to single me out because the fake dayvig was posted one minute after I reappeared. I don't remember who else was present at that time, if at all, but SB and Manix at the very least WERE there. Also, if there were other players in the game online, even if they weren't outright reading the thread at the time, any of them could have been just as responsible.

Then in 784 Boron is once again "me tooing" on a suspicion that she didn't really previously hold by attacking NNR

Paperblade, you DO realize that I talked about NekoRex a fair bit even before that post? Check 661 and 711. Both of them are before your 784. My suspicion had been in the process of getting to what I said in 784. It's not like I never mentioned him, ever, and then suddenly chimed in "me too".

I don't like how Boron jumps on Shinori in 882, I feel like she's trying to undermine him

I don't like her comment in 944

Shinori was pulling a lot of weird stuff without explanation. I know you have OC with Shinori, but the rest of us don't and we can't get into your minds. Try to see it from our perspectives, where he looks really confusing and slightly scummy, instead of knowing in advance what he's trying to do. Plus, he hadn't really scum hunted at all that phase up until then. It's not "undermining", but more "what the hell are you doing explain stuff".

What comment, "I'll get off his case FOR NOW, since you're convinced and I don't think you're scum"? The "FOR NOW" is because things can change and I'm not going to town read them over a neighbors claim only when that was all I knew. If you're talking about "the since you're convinced" part, it's because if you're that damn convinced Proto's town to the point where you're defending him because he's not around, I don't feel my vote is going to really get anywhere at that point.

summary: boron's play the entire game has been her just blending in. Every read seems to be "They are just scummy enough for me to lynch but not enough for me to lead a wagon so that I can escape blame later" and I felt like she's just been coasting through the last few days

Nice misrep, Paperblade. I WAS THE FIRST SERIOUS VOTE ON BALDRICK AND MY VOTE STAYED ON HIM ALL PHASE. I CONTINUED TO QUESTION AND PUSH HIM UP BEFORE HE MODKILLED HIMSELF. That's not "leading a wagon"? My vote on Blitz may not have been the first one, but it was one of the earlier votes and I pushed him quite visibly. Also, I asked quieter players like Kay what they thought about the Baldrick wagon from D1, which I had pushed, asking if they had ANY reads on anyone or what had happened. Because that's totally trying to escape the blame, asking people to comment on the people on a wagon I myself had been on?

As for coasting, I really have been sick and busy these past few days. Not a good time to be playing mafia, and I'm not going to read a game this large with a splitting headache.

Nice sheep, Cam. Do you know the meaning of hypocrisy, where you call me "missable" when your former self literally didn't exist to the point where I forgot that he was playing as well? Go back and do your reread, because I am not the only person who has been on every major wagon, and it's telling that you single me out over it.

As for me saying that kirsche's vote on Marth was due to ninja claim, I apologize if that was a misrep. That's what it looked to me at the time from the context of your posts.

Hi I just woke up an hour ago.

[scorri]

Also, kirsche, I call BS on saying that I was on all of the major bandwagons. Yes, I voted Baldrick, fine. I voted Blitz before there was a bandwagon so I hardly see how that counts, and I wasn't even voting Objection when he kicked me out of the game yesterday. I had briefly voted him at the start and then changed my mind because I realized the reasons I was gut reading him weren't very strong and that I had no solid reason to read him as scum and so unvoted him. Please explain to me how that is me being on all the bandwagons.

[BBM]

Also, Marth- if the later votes on him were due to Blitz's bullshit, how are they meek excuses? If you admit that Blitz had some bullshit posts then why are the votes weak? And if you found him scummy for D1 play, how is it weak for others to do the same later? Sheepy, yes, but that's not the same as weak.

[SB.]

Boron: the missable point is kind of more of a point on you because honestly I couldn't remember what you'd really done at all this game, even though you have the fifth highest post count. That's not to say ZM wasn't forgettable, because he was.

scorri: you were still "on" the bandwagon, even if you were the first place vote.

On a side note I don't really think kirsche has a done a lot recently. A lot of his recent posts have been less about his scumreads and more about Marth's role.

I should really stop putting off this damn reread.

[BBM]

The scummy thing about being on a wagon is when you sheep on. If you're the first vote, then at the time of your vote, it's not a wagon.

[Sunwoo]

Boron: the missable point is kind of more of a point on you because honestly I couldn't remember what you'd really done at all this game, even though you have the fifth highest post count. That's not to say ZM wasn't forgettable, because he was.

Am I really the only person with a high post count who's "missable", though? I'm not going to deny that I've had less of a presence on D3 and even less this phase, in both posts and content, and that's because my confidence and reads are shaken after a string of mislynches upon mislynches and townies dropping dead in the day, and I am lost on where to go or even to begin right now. But I dare you to read through my D1 and D2 and call me missable.

[SB.]

I... kind of did. You were one of the people I was nulling because I really didn't remember you doing anything notable. Obviously I remembered wrongly, but yeah.

[Paperblade]

The ISO thing bugs me because it seems like every time you go check on someone, you find a reason to dislike them. That's the overall problem I have with your play, everyone is "I don't like what they're doing because of X or Y," it's like you're trying to leave yourself open to push a case on anyone, and the fact that you're refusing to out town reads on D4 when it's obvious the mafia isn't killing people based on how super awesome town they are.

[Paperblade]

And I understand that this game is going really shitty and is frustrating right now and it's hard to get reads but surely there is SOMEONE that you would rather not lynch.

[Sunwoo]

The ISO thing bugs me because it seems like every time you go check on someone, you find a reason to dislike them. That's the overall problem I have with your play, everyone is "I don't like what they're doing because of X or Y," it's like you're trying to leave yourself open to push a case on anyone, and the fact that you're refusing to out town reads on D4 when it's obvious the mafia isn't killing people based on how super awesome town they are.

To be fair, I ISO people who I've already had some suspicions on (even if it wasn't outright stated in the thread) and find things that substantiate my suspicions. It's not like I ISO just anyone from out of the blue and post suspicions on them. As for me refusing to out town reads, it's because I am not sure what the benefit of it was. I mean, look at the way Elie asked me to out my town reads. It almost seemed a non-sequitur from what I had actually said.

And I do have people I wouldn't want to lynch. I wouldn't lynch SB. I wouldn't lynch Manix. I wouldn't lynch BBM. These are people I would not support a lynch on with what we have in the thread so far. I wouldn't be up for lynching you at the moment either.