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FE6 Translation Patch Name Change Thread


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This is mostly being created so that the main patch thread can be concerned with something other than translation wars, and so we can keep all the name change discussion in one thread.

For reference, gringe's list of the names he plans to change is here.

I disagree with him on the following:

Dieck > Deke (if we use Smash Bros. names, we're stuck also changing Rutger to Rutoga)

Zealot > Jerrot (how you get that from ゼロット (Zerotto) is a mystery)

Oujay > Ogier (I see no problem with just keeping it as Oujay)

Klein > Claine (it's one letter off Clarine, and gringe later proposed Klain, which I have less of an opposition for)

Miledy > Miredy/Millety (this is just change for the sake of change, it's no more accurate, and in the second case less accurate)

Oro > Orlo (gringe thought it was "cooler")

Ain > Ein (I'm not sure about this one, but it's an okay change at best)

Idoun > Idun (I personally think we don't need a mythological reference here)

This is not a full list, and it's just my opinions of course, so feel free to disagree with me.

Edited by JamesBCrazy
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Oujay > Ogier (I see no problem with just keeping it as Oujay)

He's named after Ogier the Dane.

Oro > Orlo (gringe thought it was "cooler")

Oro looks stupid and is weird to pronounce (feels foreign), maybe Orlowe?

Zealot > Jerrot (how you get that from ゼロット (Zerotto) is a mystery)

It's a reasonable approximation of the kana

Ain > Ein (I'm not sure about this one, but it's an okay change at best)

Isn't Ein the name of a pedophile or something?

ModEdit:

Watch your language, please. Many people find racial slur offensive.

eCut~

Edited by ePamplemouss
Removing racial slur.
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I knew about Ogier the Dane, but an official translation (especially in the GBA years) would have probably called the character Oujay or Ojay. I have no problem with Ogier as a name though. As for Oro, maybe Orowe or Orlowe might work. And for Zealot, I just feel it's a better romanization.

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I have read his thread so far. He really puts some effors to translate accurately for us. As Jame b said, I myself found that those names don't ring any bells and stranger than their original names. I don't know much about japanese so I cant judge it.

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Dieck > Deke (if we use Smash Bros. names, we're stuck also changing Rutger to Rutoga)

this is a big one i support - not because of some sort of "SSBB IS CANON!!!!!!" viewpoint, but because let's face it, "Dieck" is an ugly mess of a name which skews too closely to a certain euphemism for penis considering there is nothing phallic about his portrait. Deke is pretty much the same thing except it actually looks like a name

honestly even if nobody was ever thinking of revising the patch i'd probably just call him Deke in casual conversation anyway

that said, there is absolutely nothing forcing anyone to use Rutoga if Deke is used. think of SSBB names like NoJ names - they're suggestions as to what they could be called, sometimes they make sense, sometimes they don't, and we can just mix and match to our tastes. if you want to consider SSBB as a SERIOUS OFFICIAL NAME OUTLET or whatever, sure, then it can be thought of as having victorian-era jailers also forcibly branding "Rutoga" onto your buttock, but it's better to just think of it as a suggestion. sometimes sources like SSBB have good ideas (Deke), and sometimes they don't (Rutoga). it's not that complicated

either way the real important part is the script updates, which are well overdue for this patch, and i'm certainly appeased so far

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that said, there is absolutely nothing forcing anyone to use Rutoga if Deke is used. think of SSBB names like NoJ names - they're suggestions as to what they could be called, sometimes they make sense, sometimes they don't, and we can just mix and match to our tastes. if you want to consider SSBB as a SERIOUS OFFICIAL NAME OUTLET or whatever, sure, then it can be thought of as having victorian-era jailers also forcibly branding "Rutoga" onto your buttock, but it's better to just think of it as a suggestion. sometimes sources like SSBB have good ideas (Deke), and sometimes they don't (Rutoga). it's not that complicated

If one decides that they will use the most recent localized names available, then one is obligated to use Rutoga. To avoid it breaks the claim that one is sticking to official name conventions. One is instead merely picking and choosing names according to contingent, and thus arbitrary, conventions. Anything goes at this point, and the author of their project has no obligation to respecting the source material. Rather, the game has become a blank canvas by which the author may deface, reconstruct, and displace according to whim. This includes rewriting past canon/references that have already been stated in previous localization projects, either directly or indirectly (e.g. going with Mars instead of Marth, as the context of his games suggest Mars to be the correct name, given the cultural semantics of the game's characters, setting, items, and locations).

Even if one allows the disuse of Rutoga, that doesn't avoid conflict: there are as many versions of characters as there are names, and all are legitimate. Even if one holds themselves to use only localized versions made by branches of the Nintendo coporation, conflict still arises: whose version of a name is the one to use? If we go by most recent, then NoE naming conventions are the defining names to use, especially where they are in conflict with previous names (such as NoA names), given that NoE's localizations have more recent street dates, on average, than NoA, or NoJ street dates.

Whereas if one breaks off into different regions, one isn't staying in line with the initial call to remain true to the most recent Nintendo localization available. One is choosing and taking responsibility for the project, instead of following convention. Any effort to follow convention at this point is token and somewhat futile, as the author has already determined themselves to be the standing authority on this new revision of the original text.

There is merit to holding oneself to standards, and these standards can enforce one's choices in regards to revising and rewriting an original text.

The act of translation is actually very complicated if one holds themselves to good standards of conduct. If one puts forth an amateurish effort, however, and rewrites according to their own ideas, tastes, and standards, there is nothing wrong with that; and there, at this point, is no reason to follow any previous convention, outside of token respect.

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You know, I originally thought Rutoga was a totally joke translation by the SSB team.

However it could sort of make sense as a type of "foreign" or "exotic" name, seeing as Rutger the character is a Bern-Sacaen hybrid. Other Sacaen characters have fairly non-standard names like Rath, Shin and Dayan (dunno how Sue fits in though...).

It could be like how NOA used names like "Lon'qu" and "Say'ri" for the eastern-style Chon'sin characters.

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Rutoga doesn't seem as "exotic" to me, as much as it seems a lazy romanization by the SSBB guys. Once again, I'm going by, and I think we should all go by, what an official translation would have had it as. To be fair, an official translation at that time would have changed a few names to something out of left field, so take that with a grain of salt.

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Eh, I'm going with Gharnef's reasoning rather than Celice's. My rules are pretty simple: FE7/Awakening names are definite go, NoJ and Smash Bros. names are "consider them but don't be bound by them." I don't think many people (myself included) want "Zelots," "Bath," or "Thite." I'm going with logic, real names when possible, and adapting a little bit where I deem necessary. It's nothing out of the ordinary.

Anyway, I'll address the OP now I guess.

Dieck > Deke (if we use Smash Bros. names, we're stuck also changing Rutger to Rutoga)

I mentioned already but it's not only because it's in SSBB. I (and I'm apparently not the only one) find Dieck hideous.

Zealot > Jerrot (how you get that from ゼロット (Zerotto) is a mystery)

The je sound doesn't exist natively in Japanese so it's often approximated as ze. Los Angeles for example is ロサンゼルス and jelly is ゼリー so Jerrot from ゼロット is a perfectly feasible romanization.

Oujay > Ogier (I see no problem with just keeping it as Oujay)

But I do.

Klein > Claine (it's one letter off Clarine, and gringe later proposed Klain, which I have less of an opposition for)

I'm going with Klain, yep. Klein is pronounced completely differently and was likely written thinking that the ei would be pronounced like they are in Japanese.

Miledy > Miredy/Millety (this is just change for the sake of change, it's no more accurate, and in the second case less accurate)

Not exactly "just for the sake of change." I'm trying to "repair" some of the arbitrary romanizations present in the original translation and in the case of this one the "real name" should be Milady but I can't use that for obvious reasons. I'm willing to reconsider Millety though. What about these? Milledi, Miletti, Mileidy,

Oro > Orlo (gringe thought it was "cooler")

I could go with Orlowe I guess but Orlo appears to be a real name too.

Ain > Ein (I'm not sure about this one, but it's an okay change at best)

Basically a literal romanization to an adaptation. It's not like he's an important character so whatever really.

Idoun > Idun (I personally think we don't need a mythological reference here)

The real question is where did "Idoun" come from in the first place? The NoJ official spelling is "Idenn" which I think is okay but "Idun" is a mythological reference and I think it sounds a little better.

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However it could sort of make sense as a type of "foreign" or "exotic" name, seeing as Rutger the character is a Bern-Sacaen hybrid. Other Sacaen characters have fairly non-standard names like Rath, Shin and Dayan (dunno how Sue fits in though...).

It could be like how NOA used names like "Lon'qu" and "Say'ri" for the eastern-style Chon'sin characters.

I can see localization and players associating Rutoga with that exoticness.

For Sue, perhaps that was wrongly recognized, and is meant to be a direct reference to the Sioux instead. They are pronounced the same, after all.

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Rutoga doesn't seem as "exotic" to me, as much as it seems a lazy romanization by the SSBB guys. Once again, I'm going by, and I think we should all go by, what an official translation would have had it as. To be fair, an official translation at that time would have changed a few names to something out of left field, so take that with a grain of salt.

Technically, Rutoga is an existing name. I did found that its also a name of Tibetan pinyin for the Tibet Autonomous Region in Ngari Prefecture in the Rutog County called "Rutoga Zong".

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The je sound doesn't exist natively in Japanese so it's often approximated as ze. Los Angeles for example is ロサンゼルス and jelly is ゼリー so Jerrot from ゼロット is a perfectly feasible romanization.

or it is written as ジェ

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What's wrong with Miledy? You say that you want to replace some of the arbitrary romanizations, but all the names you suggest are (afaik) just as arbitrary as Miledy. I can understand replacing Dieck with Deke, as the latter is a common name and the former isn't, but none of the alternatives you suggest for Miledy are common names either.

I mean, it's your patch, so you're completely free to change what you want, but personally I don't see the reason to change Miledy. I might be biased because it's one of my favourite FE6 names, but I've never actually heard anyone complain about Miledy.

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I don't see the point of changing any names to the extent that they're pronounced differently. Everyone knows Miledy, why do we need to change it for no reason?

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What's wrong with Oujay?

It's an entirely arbitrary romanization and not a name.

or it is written as ジェ

Certainly there's that too but my point was that ze isn't unfeasible either.

What's wrong with Miledy? You say that you want to replace some of the arbitrary romanizations, but all the names you suggest are (afaik) just as arbitrary as Miledy.

It fails both tests I give for the fan spellings. It's not the original intention and it's not a name.

You say that you want to replace some of the arbitrary romanizations, but all the names you suggest are (afaik) just as arbitrary as Miledy.

Not really, they all appear to be real names.

I can see localization and players associating Rutoga with that exoticness.

I really don't think whoever worked on Smash Bros. put that much thought into it. They also used "Stafy" rather than "Starfy" after all.

For Sue, perhaps that was wrongly recognized, and is meant to be a direct reference to the Sioux instead. They are pronounced the same, after all.

Not unfeasible, but I personally don't want to name a character Sioux unless there's a little more justification.

Edited by gringe
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It fails both tests I give for the fan spellings. It's not the original intention and it's not a name.

i'm not sure how you can justify anything as the "original intention." if we were to go by that, the most appropriate english name would be "milady."

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i'm not sure how you can justify anything as the "original intention." if we were to go by that, the most appropriate english name would be "milady."

You're right, but as I've said, I can't use that. I'm trying to adapt somewhat where appropriate without getting too far from the original pronunciations. Otherwise I wouldn't bother with Jerrot.

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Do you have a clear idea of what defines a "real name"? A name is merely a way of referring to some thing. Unless you mean a name you'd recognize. If so, then you need to be careful of where you suggest a name is not real, for what you consider a name, and what I, or anyone else considers to be a name, are not determined in one-and-the-same manner. And then you must also remember, a name you'd recognize isn't necessarily a name you'd see in the Fire Emblem universe, or a name thought up by Japanese videogame writers, or a name that'd be recognized by some other audience.

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... why can't you use that? this whole business is arbitrary.

The same reason I won't use Zealot.

Do you have a clear idea of what defines a "real name"?

Basically if it exists on Google in any significant capacity I consider it a real name. If all I get are Fire Emblem pages then I think that's a problem. If it were an official localization and all that came up were Fire Emblem pages that'd be fine. But there is no official localization, so I don't think we should use arbitrary spellings that don't exist in the real world.

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Basically if it exists on Google in any significant capacity I consider it a real name. If all I get are Fire Emblem pages then I think that's a problem. If it were an official localization and all that came up were Fire Emblem pages that'd be fine. But there is no official localization, so I don't think we should use arbitrary spellings that don't exist in the real world.

Well, firstly, recognize that Google caters your searches according to previous searches, so if you're going by your Google alone, you're getting skewed results.

Secondly, it's probably a better idea to be searching various academic resources, rather than Google, if you're wanting to see spellings that "exist in the real world". These allow you to scour research into different cultures or topics that you may not be familiar with, with the ease of a search function. Likewise, these let you see if there's any current authors that share the same or a similar spelling.

But any name and any spelling can be actualized upon the creation or utterance of it. If I choose the name Waffleland, it's now a legitimate name, functional and recognizable, for whatever purpose I can think of. The fact that you don't recognize it doesn't invalidate the name, nor does it make it an unreal name. It feels like you're negating the original text in favor of your own, which technically isn't a translation or even a localization at that point. It's rewriting according to personal taste. Which, as myself and others have said, isn't necessarily a bad thing: but it certainly makes any attempt to use "real" names or official conventions a somewhat flat effort.

(not to mention, all spellings are contingent, and thus arbitrary, depending on the linguistic/semantic history of a name or word)

Edited by Celice
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dondon:

If adaptation is completely arbitrary, then I guess it is. There's a little more to it than that though.

But any name and any spelling can be actualized upon the creation or utterance of it. If I choose the name Waffleland, it's now a legitimate name, functional and recognizable, for whatever purpose I can think of. The fact that you don't recognize it doesn't invalidate the name, nor does it make it an unreal name. It feels like you're negating the original text in favor of your own, which technically isn't a translation or even a localization at that point.

The whole point though, is that Miledy is a fan-creation. If you're saying I should use Milady, then I would agree were it not confusing as all hell in-script. Let's say Miledy is a name. Even so I'd really like to differentiate it a TAD more from the word "milady." We've already drifted away from the official spelling by using Miledy, so surely Milledi isn't any worse. Will probably replace Millety with Milledi at this point by the way.

Edited by gringe
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The point is that it's worse because it's not what people are used to. If you're going to change from what everyone is used to, then there should be a reason for it, not just replacing one arbitrary name with another. As for the other names that you've suggested, I've never heard of them as names either. The only one I've heard of is Melody, but you didn't like that one IIRC.

I always just thought that Miledy's name was supposed to a Three Musketeers reference, like Athos. If you're going to change it from Miledy, I wouldn't mind Milady because it still makes more sense to me than Milledi or Millety (which will just remind me of millet)

Not every name has to be a "real" name either. Is Bartre a real name?

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