Musical Chairs Mafia, Town Wins, the Mod Loses

[Zkirsche]

Well, Terrador was distancing himself from his own vote a lot and I don't think he's really done a lot of scum hunting; but Scorri's case on him is pretty bad though and I feel like he would be an easy target to try and mislynch due to his generally all-over-the-place play.

Lynch priorities for me are Elie > Scorri >Terrador >>> Prims.

[Elieson]

Yep I have a post I'll build in about two hours. I just got off the phone with the bank again and I may have to find a new home for my family by the end of this month. <hence my distractions>. I don't wanna request a sub but I'm not sure if I'll be able to focus on this or anything really.

##Unvote

##Vote BBM

I saw something but fuck me if I'm gonna go find it right this very minute.

[BBM]

Eh, not 100% okay with Strege, but his responses are decent and I've grown tired lately of holding down votes I'm not completely comfortable with just for the sake of not wanting to make an empty unvote.

##Unvote

Elie, why are you voting me?

[Elieson]

I said while signing up that my activity would be limited. ;/

Strege, you're right, potential WIFOM is a possible reason for why scum might have done it. However, the reason I presented for why scum wouldn't is just as valid and no less likely, which is why it's null, so I don't like you making it out to be scummy. I don't disagree with what you said about BC's SB vote, but it's retroactive reasoning that doesn't apply for why you chose to keep the vote on him over Elie when you admit that the vote there was a weak RVS case and you found Elie's actions mildly scummy. You also said "now I find him scummier", which implies you didn't originally.

Don't think this is fair. You aren't looking at any other possible motivation of this statement, and it feels soooooo forced.

Your obesity causes you to get tired quicker, so you'd return home quicker as well. I think the issue here is which variable in t = d/s is affected by your portliness. If speed decreases while distance stays the same, then yes, time increases, but if distance decreases while speed stays the same, then time in fact decreases. And you walk pretty fast, sooooo.

On a more serious note, I don't disagree with most of the stuff Strege says, but it makes me uncomfortable just how many people he finds suspect. He thinks Bearclaw is mildly scummy, he thinks Scorri is scummy, he thinks Terra is a bit suspicious, he finds SB scummy, and he finds Elie a bit suspicious as well. 5/13 (really 5/11 because Objection and Darros have nothing relevant) is quite a lot. I don't really like all of the finger-pointing.

As for a case-by-case basis, I don't like the criticism that Scorri got a lot out of Terra's two posts when two incidentally also happens to be the number of relevant posts that Scorri has made. Yet Strege has enough for a case there? He's also making it out that Scorri is not contributing a lot when she still has more than a lot of other people in the game, and we're only 24 hours into the game. How many scumreads is Scorri required to have?

Kirsche's Prims vote feels... easy. I also don't understand why he voted Prims over his current vote, Elie, or why he chose not to pursue Terra more after pointing out the disclaimer thing.

This post is a serious chunk of my rising scumread on BBM. One, he calls out Strege for having weirdly placed scumreads, but only follows through on a few of them. He cleverly ignores me like most of the game, and just hints at Strege mentioning me (and SB for that matter). Sure he addresses it later, when called out on it, but he's still calling attention to it. And seriously, FMPOV, what's the scum intent in having tiers of scumreads? Seems like a misrep to me. I have had like one scumread all game, but you're gonna let me fly by, and someone who's got various reasons to find various people scummy just isn't gonna fly by your rules?

---

Tl;dr your play and reads feel extremely forced to me, and when I say forced, it's different than looking to hard. It feels to me like you're trying to make Big something that's not, by how you're doing it, as opposed to what you're doing.

Lesser scumread still on Darros, for coming in and literally doing nothing

[BBM]

I don't even understand the first point, and what in that second post says anything about tiers of reads? I was talking about the numbers of reads, which is a completely different thing. When you're calling half the game scummy, that's not very good, because it gave me the feeling he was just gunning for a lynch on a lot of people.

What is clever about me not talking about you? I'm not required to say anything about you. I didn't particularly have any opinions. And as for me not saying anything about Strege's actual cases, I did. I said I didn't disagree with a lot of what he said. Again, it wasn't about the placing as much as the amount.

[Elieson]

My point on the first point is that the bolded statement does nothing but draw attention over to Strege, but is a shitty reason to do so. "Now I find him scummier" can easily mean "he was a null read and now he's a scum read", never implying a town read that you seem to assume there was. Only it's bad because it is such a weak reason to draw attention because it can be picked apart easily and doesn't really mean anything definitive.

I don't feel like I'm making sense but FMPOV it just seems like a weak attempt to draw unvalidated and negative attention towards someone.

Wrt the tiers thing. I'm pretty sure you said yourself that he finds me and terra a bit suspicious, DA BEAR to be mildly scummy, and Scorri/SB to be scummy. With your interpretation of that, it should be completely fair that he has those reads. Are players not allowed to find more than three people who might likely fit the bill of scum, on day1? Havin broad reads means he's looking at everyone and building opinions on many players, hardly an antitown thing to do. But you say it is. Calling 1/3 of the game (fuck off if you think null posters don't actually exist on the player list), as opposed to half the game scummy means something. It means he's narrowing down his views to people who likely matter wrt voting, an important thing to do. You're presenting an argument that basically says "If you can't sum up your reads into under 3/4 players, you're probably scum" and that's stupid because I can still find people scummy, to lesser extents, and trust them less due to their actions and still have 3 primary scumreads.

And as for the clever thing, i just thought it was neat that you broke down a few of those cases he made, but not all of them (me being one of those not broken down) is all.

[Darros]

Reaons for doing nothing: I got distracted then fell asleep. I've been fucking exhausted these past three days, I have to jet off to another interview today in two hours. Last night was the first night I slept in my bed in three nights and boy, was it FABULOUS.

Anyway, gametalk. Personally, right now I'm looking at Terrador. Terrador isn't looking so good to me right now, after saying he has no reads, and talking about weak gut reads.It's Day 1, we don't have much else other than gutreads. And then when people found him suspicious he tried to handwave it with "oh I play bad earlygame also I can't read between the lines". What.

##Vote: Terradork

Kind of suspicious of SB too for holding a vote on DA BEAR, this post especially makes me suspicious.

so pretty much you just disagree, but don't have any real reasons to find me scummy?

i'm content with my vote here.

You're saying he doesn't have any reason to find you scummy after he just said he didn't like your plan and voted you. Wasting every 1 shot on the first night seems pretty scummy as a plan, because it dicks over the town, giving all the chairs vanilla roles.

Also /pat Prims. Feel better dude.

[The Objection!]

Interesting development we got here...

I don't quite like Elie's post just now, people play differently and look at different things. I don't see thinks from your POV and you don't see things from mine. I think it's fine to look at whatever you want in the game as long as you're contributing in your own way. As a matter of fact your reasoning for voting BBM seems a bit forced to me. But seeing your life problems, I'll let it slide this time.

Still keeping my vote as it is though, as I'm not seeing any reason to change it yet.

Also Gregor, I see you there. Don't you dare not post!

[The Objection!]

WTF, ninja'd.

[SB.]

i have to go out for dinner with family in a few minutes, just a couple of things really quick

Wasting every 1 shot on the first night seems pretty scummy as a plan, because it dicks over the town, giving all the chairs vanilla roles.

you say it like it wouldn't end up supplying us with like, 5 clears if all went well. I was weighing it up, and didn't think other people would be comfortable with it. Also differing ideas on how to play the game isn't scummy, and that was the idea that I decided against on my own, if you remember, because I wasn't sure it was worth it.

neither is "holding a vote on DA BEAR" unless you know something that I don't.

not sure what to think on eli atm. I don't remember finding him scummy in our discussion earlier, but I'll try and address this when i get back.

[Zkirsche]

Wasting every 1 shot on the first night seems pretty scummy as a plan, because it dicks over the town, giving all the chairs vanilla roles.

This is completely missing the point of the plan, that gets us 5 clears. You're entitled to an opinion, but at the very least address the points that were made before considering this has already been explained in detail.

tl;dr At the end of the game all but the doc and hooker should be vanilla roles, so whether that occurs D4 or D2 it doesn't change a thing, except for the fact that come D4 more of those roles could've died.

[Da Bear]

ITP: Bearclaw has to ask for a sub because of a ton of RL stuffs that literally just popped up and will prevent him from playing properly.

[BBM]

My point on the first point is that the bolded statement does nothing but draw attention over to Strege, but is a shitty reason to do so. "Now I find him scummier" can easily mean "he was a null read and now he's a scum read", never implying a town read that you seem to assume there was. Only it's bad because it is such a weak reason to draw attention because it can be picked apart easily and doesn't really mean anything definitive.

I don't feel like I'm making sense but FMPOV it just seems like a weak attempt to draw unvalidated and negative attention towards someone.

Wrt the tiers thing. I'm pretty sure you said yourself that he finds me and terra a bit suspicious, DA BEAR to be mildly scummy, and Scorri/SB to be scummy. With your interpretation of that, it should be completely fair that he has those reads. Are players not allowed to find more than three people who might likely fit the bill of scum, on day1? Havin broad reads means he's looking at everyone and building opinions on many players, hardly an antitown thing to do. But you say it is. Calling 1/3 of the game (fuck off if you think null posters don't actually exist on the player list), as opposed to half the game scummy means something. It means he's narrowing down his views to people who likely matter wrt voting, an important thing to do. You're presenting an argument that basically says "If you can't sum up your reads into under 3/4 players, you're probably scum" and that's stupid because I can still find people scummy, to lesser extents, and trust them less due to their actions and still have 3 primary scumreads.

And as for the clever thing, i just thought it was neat that you broke down a few of those cases he made, but not all of them (me being one of those not broken down) is all.

No, the point wasn't that Strege went from town -> scum on Bearclaw. In fact, Strege was voting for Bearclaw. I know he found Bearclaw suspicious. The point is that if he was saying that he NOW found him scummier than you, the implication is that previously he didn't, that the suspicion on you was greater.

And no, there's a difference between null posters and people who literally don't have any posts to speak of, which at the time Objection and Darros didn't. And yeah, I find someone having 5 scumreads of varying intensities 24 hours into D1 excessive. I took my vote off because I thought Strege responded adequately to everything else and I didn't feel this was enough for a vote in the end, but that doesn't mean it can't make me wary.

I have to reread the thread to look for other stuff. Unfortunately I'm getting called away a lot and that's taking a long time.

[Strege]

I'm now putting Elie in the null bucket. I tried to type up my reasoning and it was just a mess. Important parts: the scummiest thing about Elie I see is the overreaction and that's consistent with the sort of uneven footing he seems to have demonstrated with the roletalk and a little bit with the BBM interaction, which also makes other things harder to read.

ISOing some quiet peeps:

-Refa/Terra where u at

-Objection I don't like that you're keeping your vote on Elie despite discounting the fact that you feel his BBM vote was forced. That means that you'd still vote him over everyone else because he had a lot of posts and not a lot of scumhunting early on. I can't think of anything to ask you about Elie or Terra but do you have any other reads?
-Kay kinda waffles on Terra in her only post, and I don't think her vote is great (as it's based only on Elie's overrreaction). The rest of the post isn't bad, but I'd definitely like to see more content from her.

[Refa]

This is completely missing the point of the plan, that gets us 5 clears. You're entitled to an opinion, but at the very least address the points that were made before considering this has already been explained in detail.

tl;dr At the end of the game all but the doc and hooker should be vanilla roles, so whether that occurs D4 or D2 it doesn't change a thing, except for the fact that come D4 more of those roles could've died.

While I do agree that there are benefits to using 1-shot roles on day 1, there are some benefits to saving them...well, saving it to be precise, thinking of 1 role in particular; da vig shot. Later on, it'll be a lot less shooting in the dark (heh), and potentially more beneficial to town.

Can't really think about how the other one shot roles would be significantly more helpful if saved, especially if we confirm past roles the next day. Maybe bulletproof?

Wow, I said benefit a lot.

wrt to scum readings, i think the current ones on SB have a faulty premise. for reference, here's the original post darros was complaining about

my proposal was that you out if you have a role or not, not which one you have, also if they just reshuffle it then they DON'T know who has a PR or not. not too fussed about this though, this suggestion was more to get people talking than anything else (i also had an idea about all 1 shot roles using their shots tonight and we have a bunch of clears tomorrow, but dunno if it's worth using them all up tonight)

agree with bbm about outing which you had the next day regardless

but notice how his proposal was just mentioning roles, the only time using all of the 1-shot roles was stated was in a side comment, with clear doubt in the original post (nothing revisionist to see here!). so it casts the people who voted SB (bearclaw, darros, strege) in a moar scummy light. well strege not so much because iirc he voted SB for another reason altogether, but darros and bearclaw were definetely a bit selective when it came to showing proof that SB is in fact, Scum Bot.

as for everyone else, terrador's initial reasoning seemed rather shaky which bothers me, and i don't really have any definite thoughts wrt to the other prayers.

[Zkirsche]

I have mentioned that I am happy with saving the vig shot before.

[Refa]

sorry, i must've missed that or forgotten about it. for the most part i agree with your points, just throwing out my general thoughts on the matter.

i mean like if nothing else, i think we should definetely be using tracker and watcher day 1.

[Strege]

sorry, i must've missed that or forgotten about it. for the most part i agree with your points, just throwing out my general thoughts on the matter.

i mean like if nothing else, i think we should definetely be using tracker and watcher day 1.

Why watcher and tracker? I just don't understand the reasoning behind the choice. Also, if we agree on that then scum will just use their ninja, which seems suboptimal -- personally I'd rather let the people with the roles decide when to use them on their own or perhaps suggest a timeframe.

[Refa]

Why watcher and tracker? I just don't understand the reasoning behind the choice. Also, if we agree on that then scum will just use their ninja, which seems suboptimal -- personally I'd rather let the people with the roles decide when to use them on their own or perhaps suggest a timeframe.

My logic was that it'd help us narrow down the targets, but I didn't have the ninja in mind when coming up with that strat...so dumb. With that in mind, I still think town should use just the tracker role. As the ninja is a one shot role, theoretically the mafia could negate the tracker, but I think the town come out ahead in that case (as the watcher is a stronger role). And if it's not negated, well, an early lead combined with confirming past roles should let town weed out a more suitable target next turn...or at least make it an easier process.

Ultimately it's up to the people who use them, of course, but there's not really much to discuss about if that's the case!

[NekoRex]

The Halfway Point Votecount

Wallcrab (2): , EssBee, Refa

Elieson (4): Terrador, Kay, Objection!, kirsche

EssBee (2): Lonely Wallcrab, Strege

Terrador (2): scorri, Gregor

BBM (2): mafia sucks, Elieson

Voteless Scum: , BBM

There are ~33 Hours left in the Day Phase. It takes 7 Votes to lynch a player.

[BBM]

Man, I hate how much better newer players are these days. ;_; In MY DAY, we sucked ass(bee) for the first few games.

Personally if I was T/W, I'd support a plan telling everybody to use them and then idle it to waste the Ninja. Unfortunately, that's probably also exactly the same excuse that a scum given that role would use, so eh.

Anyways, I don't really like this post:

That sounds to me like a a fancier way to say that yes, you're looking for associative reads. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Skimmed through some stuff. Terra looks like dumbtown instead of scum, although I do think the whole "this isn't a serious read" thing was not good. Eli's overreaction to Kirsche arguing with him is worse. Strege's vote was silly but Eli is worse. People should definitely claim previous roles, I'm not sure about whether to use the 1-shots but I would lean toward thinking it would be good to hold onto them until the player with the role thinks they have a useful target, instead of just deciding to use them or not use them. Clearing people is cool and all, but I don't like the idea of just throwing most of our PRs out the window immediately for a few clears and maybe some other info if we're lucky.

Also, I think I'm missing something. Where was it specified that the cop is a rolecop?

##Vote: Elieson

She pronounces Terra as dumbtown instead of scum, but gives no reason for this. Whenever she talks about Terra (associative reads and the "not serious read" thing), she says things that would imply the latter instead of the former. Strege's vote is silly, but no reasons are given at all for why. The Elie vote is okay I guess but the reasoning is sort of brief, and the majority of this post just speaks towards rolespec that's sort of badly reasoned to boot, since the use of info roles is to catch scum, so I don't see how a few clears is worse than this, as the latter makes the former much easier.

##Vote: Kay

[Prims]

I still feel like BBM is scum

[Prims]

also the game I was referring to was SF2M, I believe. I remember eclipse and I were voting for you in whatever it was

[BBM]

Pretty sure I wasn't being voted for that, because IIRC I spent most of D1 going after Snike and Eclipse.

What do you think about what I said about Kay?

[Prims]

re-reading the thread from the start, here are my thought's:

- Don't know if anybody mentioned this already, but if there's an excess of vanilla claims due to scum not wanting to reveal that they skipped using their role, then we get X guaranteed scum in Y players, which is good.

- I think kirsche and Elie are both town trying really hard

- Strege, why wait until several posts of yours after Bearclaw's reaction to call it null? Seems awkward.

- This Terrador post looks really, really fake. You can lynch scum without relying on roles.

- Refa, do you have prior mafier experience?

Terrador strikes me as finicky and self-conscious this game for reasons scorri has stated and I find said behavior scummy. Strege's counterargument doesn't really sway me against scorri since I think he is missing the forest (Terrador being awkwardly reactive) for the trees.

Objection - all your scumreads are based on people not having scumreads early in the game (where there tends to be a drought of content), which is Iffy because if they had been posting real content it could be assumed that you would have no scumreads. What makes them stand out to you?

Furthermore I don't like Objection's reaction to Elie's contentpost, "people play differently and look at different things" is true to an extent but undermines the point of looking for scum BSing cases on townies. Similiar to the above, why can't it be argued that Elieson is also contributing in his own way? Saying "I'll let it slide" but then keeping the vote on Elieson anyway is also really awkward and waffly.

##Unvote

##Vote: Objection

Otherwise, I don't see the rationale behind the Elie wagon at all. I can't remember the last time Elie was lynched for a good reason actually. I'm still willing to lynch Bearclaw for reasons people have already stated and Terrador would be my wagon of choice if pressure on Objection doesn't pick up. I'm dropping the push on BBM since it's mostly gut but I still just feel like he's scum man

Cut: I think Kay's post is pretty weak for being all "X is worse" but not "X is worse than Y because Z". I pretty much agree but wouldn't prioritize her over Objection and Terrador yet; I do think she should come back and elaborate, though.