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Musical Chairs Mafia, Town Wins, the Mod Loses


NekoRex
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@Prims:

If you're referring to my post 105, I had only posted once between his reaction and my nullread and it was just to respond to kirsche and try to prevent Elie's OP-misreading from spiraling any more. The next time I posted I think I realized that I hadn't given enough mental attention to Wallcrab's response and hadn't said anything about it in the thread, so I did.

Your scumread on Terra shouldn't affect your read on scorri imo. Is it just because they're unlikely to be scumbuddies? 'Cause you're suspicious of BBM and I and we picked at each other just as much.

I think Terra is kinda scummy but I think meta is ameliorating that a fair bit, as bad as that might be. I remember him doing a lot of rolespec and vocalized self-awareness/self-consciousness when we were scumbuddies in Drafters and it didn't seem to stem from him being scum -- just posting style. scorri just seems dodgier to me.

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Yeah, gotta agree with Strege about Terra's self-reflection being more his style than his scumplay.

Refa doesn't have prior mafia experience AFAIK, though he's spectated a few games and heard me/Boron/SB discuss them a lot. It made me initially a bit uncomfortable because it made me think he was being coached, but quite honestly I think if a member of the mafia is new and has no idea what they're doing, it's better play to let them coast off that than to tell them exactly what to say. So I think him playing at a higher level than what might be expected from a first-time player is a null-tell overall, because it seems more consistent than just one or two posts that have much better quality than the rest.

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Also:

Terrador strikes me as finicky and self-conscious this game for reasons scorri has stated and I find said behavior scummy. Strege's counterargument doesn't really sway me against scorri since I think he is missing the forest (Terrador being awkwardly reactive) for the trees.

From the word "counterargument" and some of the logic I get the impression that you thought I was defending Terrador. Is that the case? I did try to clarify my intent at the bottom of the post in which I presented the case against scorri:

I also think Terra is slightly scummy for saying people shouldn't look at his vote; I just happen to find scorri's case against him suspect, and that case has been all of her content so I can't analyze anything else there.

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- Refa, do you have prior mafier experience?

Nope, total scrub. Not sure whether that's a point in my favor or not haha.

Also pretty sure noone has mentioned the vanilla thing yet, but that is good, yeah. Only problem I can see really is if a townie with a role lies about it, although I don't think there's any reason to do that, so uh...ignore me?

Yeah, gotta agree with Strege about Terra's self-reflection being more his style than his scumplay.

Refa doesn't have prior mafia experience AFAIK, though he's spectated a few games and heard me/Boron/SB discuss them a lot. It made me initially a bit uncomfortable because it made me think he was being coached, but quite honestly I think if a member of the mafia is new and has no idea what they're doing, it's better play to let them coast off that than to tell them exactly what to say. So I think him playing at a higher level than what might be expected from a first-time player is a null-tell overall, because it seems more consistent than just one or two posts that have much better quality than the rest.

haha, i only spectated drafter mafia, although I did get a rather detailed explanation from you/Boron/SB when I asked how everything works. no other prior experience (should I have used Shin's British line despite not being British...probably not)

basically everything i know comes from reading all of the guides on the SF Mafia Info Dump and looking up the roles on Smogen.

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re-reading the thread from the start, here are my thought's:

- Don't know if anybody mentioned this already, but if there's an excess of vanilla claims due to scum not wanting to reveal that they skipped using their role, then we get X guaranteed scum in Y players, which is good.

referring to this when i said vanilla thing, was rereading my post and it seemed a little vague.

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Strege, it's less that I find you suspicious than that I wanted an explanation for your actions. My read on scorri isn't really related to my read on Terra; the point of that sentence was that I disagreed with your dissection of the case (which attacked the logic against Terrador as much as scorri from what I could tell).

What do you guys think about lynching objection?

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I don't really agree with your vote because talking about the hypothetical in which Elie had content prior to his vote against me isn't really relevant? I agree with what Objection said about Elie. Elie has 24 posts, and other than 2-3 posts about me, he has nothing except discussion about role usage and some defence. I don't really agree with his point that Terra had no reads, as Terra was still making scumhunting effort, but I don't think Elie was before his vote against me. And ~bias but I don't think the vote against me was good either.

Prims, if you still have a hunch I'm scum, why aren't you looking more at Elie's case against me? What's your opinion of it?

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Strege, it's less that I find you suspicious than that I wanted an explanation for your actions. My read on scorri isn't really related to my read on Terra; the point of that sentence was that I disagreed with your dissection of the case (which attacked the logic against Terrador as much as scorri from what I could tell).

What do you guys think about lynching objection?

Alright; I'm still not 100% sure what you mean by the bit in parentheses but I guess you just don't find my case against scorri convincing. If there is something scummy or objectively flawed about it let me know (cause I don't know when I'm getting a response from scorri and discussion seems to be running a bit dry).

I think your argument against Objection is okay (except that I don't like your implication that Objection would have no content if everyone was active) and I gots the scumvibes from him to a fair extent, but I'm really not a fan of lynching someone who's only posted twice unless there are no comparable options (or they slip or get scanned or whatever). Same thing for scorri.

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i agree that objection's arguments have been uh...objectionable (like the whole "I'll let u slide this time" elieson but he keeps the vote anyways), but it's hard to get a reading on him due to his lack of posts (less than me, whoah bro...although he might be busy i dunno).

still, i think that people who post more (e.g. elieson) will naturally have more flaws in their arguments than people like Objection because there's more to nitpick at. i mean sure, there's nothing stopping scum from posting a lot, but not posting is definitely the safer option. so if anything, at least early on, i think more suspicion should be placed upon people who post less. 0 benefits for town to do so (of course, ignoring well, LIFE, that's a totally valid excuse), helps mafia stand out less.

so yeah, Objection seems scummy, not really seeing it with Elieson. still, i'd like something a bit more concrete before I jump on the objection bandwagon. or at least some sort of response from him to pick apart.

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still, i think that people who post more (e.g. elieson) will naturally have more flaws in their arguments than people like Objection because there's more to nitpick at. i mean sure, there's nothing stopping scum from posting a lot, but not posting is definitely the safer option. so if anything, at least early on, i think more suspicion should be placed upon people who post less. 0 benefits for town to do so (of course, ignoring well, LIFE, that's a totally valid excuse), helps mafia stand out less.

I agree with this and think it's dumb to ignore people for nposting less (lurking is best scum strategy etc). It's not like Objection's posts are really old or anything.

I didn't really agree with Elie's case on you re:BBM but I don't think it's a scummy push. I also find it probable that Elie just didn't have many reads early on because it was ED1 and most of the discussion was rolespec (which it's hard to derive reads from) and that you guys are being kind of anal about this. Geez.

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I agree with this and think it's dumb to ignore people for nposting less (lurking is best scum strategy etc). It's not like Objection's posts are really old or anything.

I didn't really agree with Elie's case on you re:BBM but I don't think it's a scummy push. I also find it probable that Elie just didn't have many reads early on because it was ED1 and most of the discussion was rolespec (which it's hard to derive reads from) and that you guys are being kind of anal about this. Geez.

It becomes easier to discern lurking from inactivity later on, and I think there's a lot to be said for lynching someone who's responded to arguments against them and still looks scummy after the fact -- someone who has more interactions as well. You asked who we want to lynch now. This might be an illogical instinct, but I will not allow myself to lynch someone who has only posted twice. I can already hear the graveyard chat screaming about it.

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Eh that whole thing is based on the premise that we're lynching now. That's how I jumped off with "What do you guys think about lynching objection?" anyway. That hypothetical really throws me off, but it's not actually relevant I don't think. Objection isn't my top scumread but, yes, I would support his lynch if conditions were to stay as they are and SB/scorri weren't lynch candidates.

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I point you to Touhou NOCfia if you want an example of active scum. It doesn't hurt scum to post more if it's going to get them easy towncred in that way and they can be reasonably confident of not oozing scum in every post.

Fair enough about it being difficult to derive reads from rolespec, I guess.

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I can already hear the graveyard chat screaming about it.

who cares about the graveyard, they're assholes who have the power of hindsight because they didn't actively participate in making the decision

also "scum can be active so we shouldn't lynch lurkers" does not flow logically. also i would rather lynch a scummy lurker D1 than mislynch an active townie digging his own grave, which is probably what elie is right now

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I'm not saying we shouldn't lynch scummy lurkers, I'm saying we shouldn't call people scummy just for being inactive, due to lurking being a good scum strategy. It wasn't about anyone in this game particularly, just theory.

Kay was reading the thread earlier so I know she's around. Waiting on elaboration there as to why Elie is worst, why Terra is dumbtown instead of scum according to her, and why Strege's vote is silly.

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I'm not saying we shouldn't lynch scummy lurkers, I'm saying we shouldn't call people scummy just for being inactive, due to not lurking being a good scum strategy as well. It wasn't about anyone in this game particularly, just theory.

Kay was reading the thread earlier so I know she's around. Waiting on elaboration there as to why Elie is worst, why Terra is dumbtown instead of scum according to her, and why Strege's vote is silly.

Didn't word myself correctly.

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Looks like people got the wrong idea when I said that "I'll let it slide." It means that I'll stop my accusation at that and won't push it any further so that it'll be easier for him to defend himself.

What do you guys think about lynching objection?

Geez, you all start posting when I'm asleep and now you're lynching me for being an active lurker? How fair.

Look, I didn't have much of a choice yesterday because there's a lot less stuff that goes around than right now. Other reads coming up as soon as I read everything in order.

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I point you to Touhou NOCfia if you want an example of active scum. It doesn't hurt scum to post more if it's going to get them easy towncred in that way and they can be reasonably confident of not oozing scum in every post.

Fair enough about it being difficult to derive reads from rolespec, I guess.

i think it's more of a "If you do post a lot, it could go either way", but "If you don't post a lot, either you're inactive because you have a life (so jealous) or Rapier or scum".

I'm not saying we shouldn't lynch scummy lurkers, I'm saying we shouldn't call people scummy just for being inactive, due to lurking being a good scum strategy. It wasn't about anyone in this game particularly, just theory.

well it's hard to tell the difference between lurking and inactivity haha; i wouldn't hold it against people if it was the latter (e.g darros).

Looks like people got the wrong idea when I said that "I'll let it slide." It means that I'll stop my accusation at that and won't push it any further so that it'll be easier for him to defend himself.

Geez, you all start posting when I'm asleep and now you're lynching me for being an active lurker? How fair.

Look, I didn't have much of a choice yesterday because there's a lot less stuff that goes around than right now. Other reads coming up as soon as I read everything in order.

i think only prims has actually voted for you, but honestly my problem is less lack of posts and more of your stance against Elieson. Partially accusing someone is like partially being pregnant, it doesn't work! if you honestly thought he was scum, it would be better to lay all of your er, objections (i'm not doing this on purpose!) on the table rather than stopping halfway.

course, still not voting for you until you get a chance to defend yourself better.

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i think only prims has actually voted for you, but honestly my problem is less lack of posts and more of your stance against Elieson. Partially accusing someone is like partially being pregnant, it doesn't work! if you honestly thought he was scum, it would be better to lay all of your er, objections (i'm not doing this on purpose!) on the table rather than stopping halfway.

course, still not voting for you until you get a chance to defend yourself better.

Two different things on two different equations. You can't perform well under stress, so I'm currently waiting for Elieson to get better and focus on his posts before lynching him.

And now for the promised reads:

- Refa: If you're accusing me because of my stance on Elieson, you sure made the wrong impression right here.

still, i think that people who post more (e.g. elieson) will naturally have more flaws in their arguments than people like Objection because there's more to nitpick at. i mean sure, there's nothing stopping scum from posting a lot, but not posting is definitely the safer option. so if anything, at least early on, i think more suspicion should be placed upon people who post less. 0 benefits for town to do so (of course, ignoring well, LIFE, that's a totally valid excuse), helps mafia stand out less.

You should be picking on Kay then, that guy hasn't posted in a while. You're making a cheap excuse for jumping on my wagon and I don't like it.

- Prims:

- I think kirsche and Elie are both town trying really hard

I'm not sure if this is suspicion or not but I think you're going to have to elaborate a little further on this point. If you're going to defend them, you should really put some more effort into it.

- Some suspicion still remains on Terrador until he posts and give some explanation on this whole mess.

- Elie, I'm not sure. But I'll wait until he speaks for himself.

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I don't really like that reaction. It feels like an OMGUS and makes Refa's suspicion against him out to be just based on inactivity when it isn't.

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I know, I know. Just asking for an explanation. And I did say it gave me a wrong impression, it's like he changed his opinion when he saw my post. Speaking of which, he changed opinions a lot. What happened to bearclaw and Darros?

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The "Oh God 2 AM Deadline Was A Terrible Idea" Votecount


Wallcrab (2): , EssBee, Refa
Elieson (2): Terrador, Kay, kirsche
EssBee (2): Lonely Wallcrab, Strege
Terrador (2): scorri, Gregor
BBM (1): , Elieson
Kay (1): BBM
Objection (1): mafia sucks
Refa (1): Objection!
Voteless Scum: none

There are 24 Hours left in the Day Phase. It takes 7 Votes to lynch a player.

Deadline will still hit regardless of if I accidentally fall asleep beforehand tomorrow or not. I expect someone will be nice enough to make it obvious to STOP POSTING if I'm not around.

Edited by NekoRex
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