Musical Chairs Mafia, Town Wins, the Mod Loses

[Refa]

- Refa: If you're accusing me because of my stance on Elieson, you sure made the wrong impression right here.

1) I thought Kay was like, not a guy! Not a point against you at all, just sayin' is all.

Anyways, as for your quoted section, I think reading the sentence above (er, above the quoted paragraph, but actually below this line) helps establish context for my reasoning.

i agree that objection's arguments have been uh...objectionable (like the whole "I'll let u slide this time" elieson but he keeps the vote anyways), but it's hard to get a reading on him due to his lack of posts (less than me, whoah bro...although he might be busy i dunno).

Here, I'm saying that I find your arguments well, lacking, but it's hard to say that you're scum because there's not much to go off of. Then

still, i think that people who post more (e.g. elieson) will naturally have more flaws in their arguments than people like Objection because there's more to nitpick at. i mean sure, there's nothing stopping scum from posting a lot, but not posting is definitely the safer option. so if anything, at least early on, i think more suspicion should be placed upon people who post less. 0 benefits for town to do so (of course, ignoring well, LIFE, that's a totally valid excuse), helps mafia stand out less.

This is explaining that lack of information is the worst defense against being lynched, as such a course of action would only benefit mafia. And I do mention that of course, some people are busy irl (or heck, elsewhere, mafia might not be their lives, yo), and their lack of activity is totally excusable, so it's certainly not a cheap shot at you if you've been preoccupied. If lack of activity was solely what I was rallying against, I'd be almost as suspicious as you. But note that when I say post less, I am not referring to the amount of posts but rather the well, content of them. If someone was posting once a day, but it was a novel, I certainly wouldn't have any reason to be suspicious of them solely for that.

Also notice how I mention you as an example, meaning that this could in fact apply to Kay. However, the difference is that I already had reason (although not enough to actually vote you) to suspect you, whilst I didn't have any for Kay. So to conclude this longwinded paragraph before it becomes a "but thou protest too much"-

- Refa: If you're accusing me because of my stance on Elieson, you sure made the wrong impression right here.

You should be picking on Kay then, that guy hasn't posted in a while. You're making a cheap excuse for jumping on my wagon and I don't like it.

2) Insinuating that I can't has multiple reasons to think you're scum is silly. Not to mention that you're misinterpreting my second reason (lack of activity.

3) I'm not calling you out on lack of activity. Heck, you have as about as many posts as me. I'm stating that it's harder to do a scum read on you than say, elieson, but that shouldn't be a reason to put you in the clear.

4) You're strawmanning my second argument. You called my reasoning a cheap excuse, but you haven't actually refuted it or stated why it is not, that is to say, legit.

I know, I know. Just asking for an explanation. And I did say it gave me a wrong impression, it's like he changed his opinion when he saw my post. Speaking of which, he changed opinions a lot. What happened to bearclaw and Darros?

I hadn't a reason to change stance yet. Honestly, I didn't really give your post much thought at all until I read Prims post, checked back, and was like "Huh...this guy's stance on Elieson" is kind of shakey. What happened to bearclaw, you ask? Who do you think I'm voting for? It's not like I can say anything new about him when he subbed out. And Darros...huh? I don't think I've ever stated any opinions about him.

Overall, your knee jerk reaction to what I said, in addition to your attempts to discredit my logic (cheap excuse, changing opinions a lot) makes me way more suspicious of you than I ever was before. Looking back, it seems more like you're trying to deflect attention from yourself than anything else (like with your flaky stance on elieson). With that in mind;

##Unvote

##Vote: Objection

[Refa]

holy shit that was ginormous

tl,dr;

objections' original arguments were flawed but there wasn't enough information to call a lynch

however that shouldn't be reason to throw off suspicion off of him

he sure is making a lot of effort to rebuke my arguments (although not as much as I for him LOL) considering all i did was voice suspicion and hadn't voted for him (at the time)

so now i'm voting for him, because he totes seems suspicious

[The Objection!]

Oh, right.

but notice how his proposal was just mentioning roles, the only time using all of the 1-shot roles was stated was in a side comment, with clear doubt in the original post (nothing revisionist to see here!). so it casts the people who voted SB (bearclaw, darros, strege) in a moar scummy light. well strege not so much because iirc he voted SB for another reason altogether, but darros and bearclaw were definetely a bit selective when it came to showing proof that SB is in fact, Scum Bot.

Here lies your sole opinion on darros' post. And you really hate the button shift, don't you? (no offense)

The reason I'm arguing to you is that you're here, which makes my questioning a bit easier. And that's about all I can get right now from your 2 posts. Maybe my brain is not functioning properly today. I'll look at this later.

[SB.]

Finding BBM pretty suspect since he dislikes how scorri made a case on Terra with 2 posts, but 1 ups her with his vote landing on May because of a single post.

More is incoming, just slowly.

[SB.]

Why am I trying to make a content post on an ipod? If it explodes, not my fault.

Scorri: even after God-knows-how-many games, I play really bad earlygames. Really, really bad. And with nothing concrete, I felt it better to back off a bit than to be ganged up on for a gutread. This is earlygame, and not standing by a "hey I just opened the thread this stuff happened okay gutread go" read really shouldn't be scummy.

That's not a gutread. There's a difference between a weak read and a gut read. Weak ones have very little/shaky reasoning for suspecting someone, while gutreads have no logical reason for it. And the reason for people finding you suspicious WASN'T you changing your read, it was your self consciousness about doing so iirc (can't really check now.)

Oh and BBM way to not point out that SB also didn't move his vote from Wallcrab after he explained it with personal preference you mean jerk.

Not sure if I can find SB scummy for that because I got lost in that forest but that actually seems bad on BBM.

Not entirely sure what you're getting at here. What's wrong with me not moving my vote exactly, if I'm happy with where it is?

he was just gunning for a lynch on a lot of people.

Been adressed by a fair few people already, but yeah. What you seem to be disregarding is the fact that this is day 1, and having a lot of suspicions then doesn't really mean a lot. You also kind of twist his words here, implying that he would be happy to lynch any of us, and that it didn't matter which one.

Geez, you all start posting when I'm asleep and now you're lynching me for being an active lurker? How fair.

Active lurking isn't about the activity. It's about how your posts are lacking in content. and it's a scummy thing to do. You're victimizing yourself here. I don't like it.

Oh, right.

Here lies your sole opinion on darros' post. And you really hate the button shift, don't you? (no offense)

This is totally wrong. What Refa said is that he found Darros suspicious, but later wouldn't hold inactivity against Darros because he knows that he has reasons. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and Refa hasn't changed his read.

Don't want to lynch Bear's slot since he's subbing out, and Objection's posts have not been shining him in a good light. Would also advocate a Terrador lynch and maybe some others, but not Elieson.

##Unvote

##Vote: Objection

iirc i wanted to say more but phone stuff and I'm out in 30 mins.

[Zkirsche]

If Refa is scum god help us all.

##Unvote

##Vote: Objection!

I think I've burnt myself out. This is definitely a better lynch than Elie, who I was mostly suspicious of from ED1 interactions. That's not to say I'm a huge fan of his but Objection! has made himself look worse.

[Strege]

I forgot that my activity would be garbage today but while I have a moment:

Not entirely sure what you're getting at here. What's wrong with me not moving my vote exactly, if I'm happy with where it is?

You and I had possibly questionable votes on Wallcrab that didn't respond to him saying that he just doesn't like RVS or something like that. BBM called me out with a reasonable criticism of it, but I realized later that a) you were also guilty of it and that might be worth attention and b) that seemed pretty selective of BBM to only point out my argument since ours were similar. BBM responded in post 168 and explained how your situation and mine were quite different. I thought BBM's response was good which is part of why I let up.

Aggh Objection's response was weird as F, and I think scummy on the net. I see the motivation for the Elie stance now though. Lemme reread that when I get another chance.

holy shit that was ginormous

tl,dr;
objections' original arguments were flawed but there wasn't enough information to call a lynch
however that shouldn't be reason to throw off suspicion off of him
he sure is making a lot of effort to rebuke my arguments (although not as much as I for him LOL) considering all i did was voice suspicion and hadn't voted for him (at the time)
so now i'm voting for him, because he totes seems suspicious

Bolded is what? Besides explaining the Elie thing it just looks like he misinterpreted your stance on inactives. He also voted you but that's not an "effort to rebuke [your] arguments" really. Couple other minor semantic things that bothered me in the large post but I don't have time to quote atm sorry.

[Darros]

but notice how his proposal was just mentioning roles, the only time using all of the 1-shot roles was stated was in a side comment, with clear doubt in the original post (nothing revisionist to see here!). so it casts the people who voted SB (bearclaw, darros, strege) in a moar scummy light. well strege not so much because iirc he voted SB for another reason altogether, but darros and bearclaw were definetely a bit selective when it came to showing proof that SB is in fact, Scum Bot.

Except I voted for Terrador, what? I find SB kind of scummy, but Terrador is my main scumread right now, and I'm content with my vote on him, though I'd like to hear from him again.

you say it like it wouldn't end up supplying us with like, 5 clears if all went well. I was weighing it up, and didn't think other people would be comfortable with it. Also differing ideas on how to play the game isn't scummy, and that was the idea that I decided against on my own, if you remember, because I wasn't sure it was worth it.

neither is "holding a vote on DA BEAR" unless you know something that I don't.

Well, the way I saw it was Bear said he found your idea pretty scummy ((if we use every single oneshot, it does provide us with 5 clears but then we have absolutely no powers as town and the mafia is just going to pick us off)) and you kind of just handwaved him by going "your reasoning isn't real eh"

This is completely missing the point of the plan, that gets us 5 clears. You're entitled to an opinion, but at the very least address the points that were made before considering this has already been explained in detail.

tl;dr At the end of the game all but the doc and hooker should be vanilla roles, so whether that occurs D4 or D2 it doesn't change a thing, except for the fact that come D4 more of those roles could've died.

I understand it'll get us 5 clears, but it also vanillifies every single role we have. It's a very risky plan. The 5 clears will really help us, but having a literally all vanilla town from the second day onwards won't. Sure, if it occurs D4 more of those roles could have died, but on D2 if our town is literally all vanilla the only power we really have is the lynch. It would make us unable to get more information past the first night.

It doesn't look like this plan is being pushed though, so it's not really a big deal. I just don't really think it's the best idea.

[Zkirsche]

What's the difference if all of our power is the lynch from D2 comapred to D4? We have 5 clears and possibly more based on the info the roles get and we're working with good PoE from D2 onwards.

I am pushing this plan and am currently the majority poster and many people have said that this is the best thing to do or that they don't disagree with it so it's kind of a big topic.

[BBM]

Finding BBM pretty suspect since he dislikes how scorri made a case on Terra with 2 posts, but 1 ups her with his vote landing on May because of a single post.

More is incoming, just slowly.

What? I never said I disliked that Scorri made a case on Terra with 2 posts. I thought that Strege was saying he disliked Scorri making a case on Terra when he only had two posts, but I was misinterpreting something he was saying.

Also I never said that Strege would be equally happy to lynch any of the five people he was pushing, but surely nobody would be mad if one of their lesser scumreads was lynched over their top one. And throwing suspicion around on a lot of people lets you push for a lot of lynches.

[BBM]

Also, who cares if all our roles are Vanillas? What people don't seem to understand is that if we all become Vanilla, the mafia become effectively Vanilla too. What does a GF do if there's no Cop? What does a Ninja do if T/W is used up? What's the point of Janitor when almost everyone is a Vanilla anyways? Getting up to 5 clears in exchange for making the setup Mountainous is perfectly fine with me.

[NekoRex]

The "Spinning Chairs, Spinning Heads" Votecount

Objection (4): mafia sucks, Refa, EssBee, kirsche

Elieson (2): Terrador, Kay

EssBee (2): Lonely Wallcrab, Strege

Terrador (2): scorri, Gregor

BBM (1): , Elieson

Kay (1): BBM

Refa (1): Objection!

Voteless Scum: none

There are 12.5 Hours left in the Day Phase. It takes 7 Votes to lynch a player.

Deadline will still hit regardless of if I accidentally fall asleep beforehand tomorrow morning or not. I expect someone will be nice enough to make it obvious to STOP POSTING if I'm not around.

Edited August 7, 2013 by NekoRex

[BBM]

I guess I don't mind voting Objection if I have to, but some of the later votes and suspicions of Objection seem to be based solely off his reaction to Refa rather than prior content (about Elieson, say), which I don't really like. They don't seem like they're taking all his posts into account.

Darros, what are your opinions on Objection?

[Darros]

About the plan to use every role: The problem I have with it is that other than the 5 clears, we'll be effectively shooting in the dark for the rest of the game. 5 clears + 2 dead (?) first day still means we have 6 people who we'll be guessing at. I never really thought of it as "vanillizing the mafia" though, that part totally passed my brain. Maybe that would be a good idea if the mafia would be rendered useless. Still though, the whole shooting in the dark thing wouldn't be so great. And 5 clears would tell the mafia who to kill, the people who're clear. I'm just not sure about the whole idea.

About Objection, I find him a little suspicious, but not enough to cast a vote on, especially when Terrador looks worse to me. To me it looked like he overreacted a little but was trying to defend himself from Refa talking about him, and Prims' vote on him. Then people kind of sheeped on him. Especially kirsche. Baa.

[Zkirsche]

Do remember that our roles might leave clears as well. Even if they didn't, we're trying to find 3 scum out of 6 people, compared to 3 scum out of 11.

Also I don't care about sheeping and am more than happy to if I find an argument satisfactory.

[BBM]

NOC mafia isn't supposed to be a game of follow the investigative roles anyways.

[Prims]

I still think Objection is the mafias.

[Prims]

Basically Refa is right about Objection being overly touchy over what wasn't even a vote and it just makes me like this wagon more. Particularly, telling Refa to vote Kay instead is deflection and claiming Refa was looking for an easy excuse to jump on wagons is a huge leap in logic when Refa was keeping his vote down.

[BBM]

I see the deflection thing but I did that a lot in C9++ as town, because it just felt to me that people were singling me out for no reason when other people were doing what I felt was the same thing. Here, Kay wasn't doing the same thing as Objection, so it's not quite valid, but I can see town intent there too so idk anymore.

[Refa]

Oh, right.

Here lies your sole opinion on darros' post. And you really hate the button shift, don't you? (no offense)

Haha, not all the time! Only on rare occasion!

Bolded is what? Besides explaining the Elie thing it just looks like he misinterpreted your stance on inactives. He also voted you but that's not an "effort to rebuke [your] arguments" really. Couple other minor semantic things that bothered me in the large post but I don't have time to quote atm sorry.

Not really referring to the voting thing, but where he was criticizing the quality of da while Elie thing and about how I change my stance a lot. Probably over exaggerated on the amount of effort he put in, but eh, semantics.

Except I voted for Terrador, what? I find SB kind of scummy, but Terrador is my main scumread right now, and I'm content with my vote on him, though I'd like to hear from him again.

Well, it's just that the reason you find SB scummy is because he wanted to use all of the roles day 1, but in his original comment it's just an aside that he quickly rebuked himself. It seems like you're focusing way too much on that when SB's main idea was always just "everyone tell what roles they are on the current day".

[Darros]

I'm going to work in 10 minutes and will miss deadline. Prims please don't start a turbolynch on me again while I'm away. I'm content with my vote on Terrador where it is right now. I don't really think it'll end up doing anything but I don't find either of the two major wagons ((Elie or Objection!)) scummy enough to vote them. Night all. Darros out.

[Zkirsche]

Guys we have like 5 hours to find 3 votes. Might be time to consolidate (sorry Objection).

[BBM]

I guess so. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Objection

[Prims]

Im mafia

[Strege]

Why am I trying to make a content post on an ipod? If it explodes, not my fault.

That's not a gutread. There's a difference between a weak read and a gut read. Weak ones have very little/shaky reasoning for suspecting someone, while gutreads have no logical reason for it. And the reason for people finding you suspicious WASN'T you changing your read, it was your self consciousness about doing so iirc (can't really check now.)

Not entirely sure what you're getting at here. What's wrong with me not moving my vote exactly, if I'm happy with where it is?

Been adressed by a fair few people already, but yeah. What you seem to be disregarding is the fact that this is day 1, and having a lot of suspicions then doesn't really mean a lot. You also kind of twist his words here, implying that he would be happy to lynch any of us, and that it didn't matter which one.

Active lurking isn't about the activity. It's about how your posts are lacking in content. and it's a scummy thing to do. You're victimizing yourself here. I don't like it.

This is totally wrong. What Refa said is that he found Darros suspicious, but later wouldn't hold inactivity against Darros because he knows that he has reasons. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and Refa hasn't changed his read.

Don't want to lynch Bear's slot since he's subbing out, and Objection's posts have not been shining him in a good light. Would also advocate a Terrador lynch and maybe some others, but not Elieson.

##Unvote

##Vote: Objection

iirc i wanted to say more but phone stuff and I'm out in 30 mins.

Are you saying Objection was active lurking? Also, why didn't you respond to my vote?

@Refa: Not the biggest fan of your defense of "Probably over exaggerated on the amount of effort he put in, but eh, semantics." Semantics are half the game, and exaggeration is how teh scum win. It seems like that bit just brushes off my suspicion (which I will go into more detail in, but time is really short for me atm -- I really am sorry because I know not being able to respond to suspicion sucks). As for the other parts of your response, I'm afraid I literally don't understand what you are saying; would you mind restating it?

I'm still not 100% about Objection. He's been pretty scummy, but I'm just remembering the lynch in Touhou, and he's explained himself this game even less than then. I don't think his Elie thing is scummy -- I don't think he incorporated personal things in a good way, but the whole position is null imo. "Still keeping my vote as it is though, as I'm not seeing any reason to change it yet." pings me though, as he doesn't seem to look elsewhere since his vote is justified. ATE (appeal to emotion) about the active lurking thing slightly scummy, would be more scummy from some other people imo. Would scum let Objection slip off to sea with hardly a word in his defense like this?

Eughh. I don't know if I'm going to have another chance to post tonight, and we need a lynch. Of the viable lynch candidates... well, there's only one really. I guess I'd choose Objection over Terra anyway, SB wagon ain't gaining speed, and Elie lynch would be dumb imo.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Objection