Rhythm Tengoku Mafia: The Best + (Game Over)

[Paperblade]

@Iris: Okay I think I found what you mean, but you haven't really acknowledged why you're just super tunneling ELieson?

I can't determine if Shin is scummy or just playing very poorly, will have to read his iso

[Refa]

I'll do replies to the posts that I haven't commented on later but what's bothering me is I'm not sure who makes sense as Shin's scumbuddies, which worries me because I've voiced the exact same complaint in previous games and he's flipped town. I can see Iris and maaaaybe Haze, but not much else. Actually I lied, actually going to do replies to his posts.

-While I'd agree that Shin claiming that scum are on the wagon without actually being particularly bothered by anyone on the wagon is bad, I'm reading it as null because it's either him reevaluating it later and not being bothered by anyone (town) or just not wanting to push anyone there (scum).

-Shin, you defended yourself for more than just ED1 though. Honestly, I may be overplaying it, but if it's something that stood out to me from reading your ISO, I feel like it's still worth noting. Offering a NL would benefit scum if either of the wagons were scum, but yeah.

-Shin, if you take issue with Iris' vote, why isn't she on your lynch priority?

-I can understand your Blitz read, but he was actually gone for 2 and a half days (according to Skype). How does that influence your read?

-Actually like his explanation for his Kaoz/Blitz reads, but something confuses me. I'm not sure why Blitz is higher than Kaoz, can you explain?

You know what, fuck it. Shin's still on the lynch priority, but I have enough reasonable doubt to move him down for now.

##Unvote

##Vote: Iris

[Paperblade]

wrt Dormio wagon

I feel like Snike and Elieson are town

Leaning town on Refa based on other stuffs

Which leaves you (j00), Shin, and Iris, who I all have doubts about for various reasons. Shin is currently weakest scumread here because I don't think the Blitz thing along is necessarily telling

[Refa]

^^The problem is that neither of Shin nor j00's votes on Dormio are very telling.

You separate Haze already from your own post. Blitz sticks out from both Haze and Kaoz. I'd strongly recommend reading my first post first, hence why it was posted first, you kinda miss a lot of my reasoning if you ignore it. I also mentioned that Kaoz bothers me. If you look, his initial vote on me was gut, and he's conveniently held onto that gut vote. His D2 vote is essentially "I don't feel any different" but I don't actually see any reason why he's voting me beyond gut.

Also kind of paranoid of Kaoz for this reason (even though I liked his content otherwise...actually this probably explains Shin's stance in retrospect).

[j00]

Shin mentioned early on that Dormio was his main scumread though. My issue is how Blitz suddenly became his best scumread after Dormio despite inactivity and there being a lot of other stuff and interactions to go on.

[Refa]

Honestly, I've just skimmed your Shin vote (and don't disagree with it offhand, I agree that the Blitz swap made no sense), it's just that I'm kind of paranoid about lynching Shin in general (he hasn't been scum ONCE since forever, the worst success rate). Would be great if night actions somehow cleared/incriminated him.

[j00]

With that logic we should obviously just do a one-on-one between me and you, Refa, since we're both always scum but never at the same time

[j00]

Paper, what are your doubts on me again? You've mentioned Shin and Iris, but regarding me I only remember the Manix vote and the fact that it's more likely that my claim is fake compared to Elie's.

[Paperblade]

It's mostly paranoia that your LD1 was some srot of emotional appeal and such. idk

Just a weird gut feeling mostly

[Paperblade]

Also if Iris is mafia I think you have bad interactions

[Refa]

With that logic we should obviously just do a one-on-one between me and you, Refa, since we're both always scum but never at the same time

What I'm trying (and failing to) convey here is that I don't put much stock in my ability to catch Scum!Shin.

[Snike]

I agree with shin in a sense that Blitz has been strange, I believe I commented on it on my post going after Dormio. However I think there are better prospects for the time being, and voting him doesn't really accomplish much imo.

I get a slightly better feeling from Snike's posts today, I disagree with his role-spec regarding vanillas and me and Elie being 1-1 since it's a lot of wifom, but he' noticed the post about Manix and claimed to have his role interferred with, which feels townie.
I still have some issues about his D1 though, he's still saying I'm suspicious but he barely did anything to seriously push my lynch when it actually mattered to get a lynch, and switched to Dormio at some point. I know he was your second scumread, but why did you suddenly start to push him harder than primary scumread which was an entirely viable wagon?
Also, you still bring up me "quote mining" you. What does that even mean? And if you still have that issue with me today, why didn't you ask others for opinions regarding that when we needed a lynch?

-You weren't a viable wagon at that point when the plurality of the people online (swing votes) said they'd vote elie over you. Dormio was, which is why I pushed him because I believed he was scum over elie.
-Quote mining means taking parts of quotes out of context and using them in a misleading fashion. Case in point is what you did with regards to my initial elieson read.
-I asked for opinions today because it's pretty clear I tunneled Dormio and I wanted another opinion on the matter.

I'd really like to vote you but there hasn't really been much discussion on what I mentioned so I'm going to wait for that (confirm/deny if I am seeing things) + haze's explanation because if his blue remark means what I think it means, we're going to be talking vanillas soon. For now,

##Vote: Iris

I mentioned the switch is weird and it could be because of consolidation, but if she hadn't joined it we would've lynched elie as the alternative. Who was her top scumread and lynchable without having to self, unlike j00 for me.

[Prims]

Votals 2.2

Iris (3) - Paperblade, Refa, Snike

Shin (2) - Kaoz, j00

Elieson (1) - Iris

Blitz (1) - Shin

j00 (1) - Haze

Not Voting (3): Blitz, Elieson, Via

You have 67 hours and 50 minutes left in the phase. With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Prims

[Refa]

I think you're focusing way too much on vanillas. Prims mentioned that this would be a vanilla heavy game beforehand (comparing it to FE13 DLC Mafia) and that game had 6 vanillas (and it was 13P). I know you're scumreading j00 for your own reasons and that's fine, but I don't think the claim itself is telling.

[Shin]

-While I'd agree that Shin claiming that scum are on the wagon without actually being particularly bothered by anyone on the wagon is bad, I'm reading it as null because it's either him reevaluating it later and not being bothered by anyone (town) or just not wanting to push anyone there (scum).

-Shin, you defended yourself for more than just ED1 though. Honestly, I may be overplaying it, but if it's something that stood out to me from reading your ISO, I feel like it's still worth noting. Offering a NL would benefit scum if either of the wagons were scum, but yeah.

-Shin, if you take issue with Iris' vote, why isn't she on your lynch priority?

-I can understand your Blitz read, but he was actually gone for 2 and a half days (according to Skype). How does that influence your read?

-Actually like his explanation for his Kaoz/Blitz reads, but something confuses me. I'm not sure why Blitz is higher than Kaoz, can you explain?

- My problem is I can't really discern scum from the wagon, so it's just me saying that looking at pure numbers that it would make sense that scum would be on it at least in part. Hypothetical so pro.

- If it's something you've noted, that's fair enough.

- That's a good point, bro, but I'm struggling to find reasons why she's scummy other than deciding to read only reading my vote and not the post above it. You just changed your vote to Iris but I can't quite see a reason why you've done so.

- I haven't been checking Skype for players tbh, but that would at least explain the recent inactivity. I still take issue with the earlier shenanigans, but yeah, that probably puts him behind Kaoz.

- See above.

##Unvote

##Vote: Kaoz

I haven't really seen Eli for a while, so it'd be nice to get a fresh update from him.

[Blitz]

thanks for the extension Prims, we probably needed it.

the reason

Thank you, I needed this, because on first read, I really didn't understand your other line as it originally read to me as "guys i voted shin because i'm bored and wanted stuff to happen" as opposed to "guys i voted shin because i wanted to try to do something to move the game along.

this post bothers me is not exactly why most of you have mentioned (but, I do think what Manix had said to begin with was self explanatory and didn't need the second explanation and I personally think both implied pretty much the same thing anyway), but mainly because this post is pretty much exactly what Mole Knight (Randa in Shovel Knights Mafia) did. Mole Knight was pretty much pursing an impossible case on Plague Knight (Paperblade) with a case that was wrong and was getting flak for it and so, he had used a very similar post to get out of tunneling Plague Knight and move on to his secondary scumread. Now, the reason I find this post bad is because Elie had been taking flak from people for going after Manix and he used that post to ditch going after Manix and got to start going after someone else. (The reason this kind of post looks bad to me is mostly because it tries to imply that the person who was casing has no faults, but the fault lies on the person that was being cased while trying to get away with not having to go after said person anymore.)

Also, as I had sort of implied earlier, Elie wouldn't stick to target that takes him nowhere, but, after that post, he was trying to get away from said target and therefore the previous theory no longer applies.

Leaning town on Elieson myself, the way he stuck to and then backed off Manix reads positive to me, wouldn't want to lynch him.

why do you think it was a townish thing (for Elie) to back off of Manix that way? (the way I see it, scum would have more reason to do that than town)

Snike's post was just some further comments on me, what I don't like about it is how he's directly addressing my points against him and being defensive without trying to convince others that I'm a good wagon. He's not in danger of getting lynched, I am.

could you please tell us which part of Snike's post sounds defensive? (cause it didn't sound like that to me)

I was townreading him mostly because I agreed with his case on you (him being one of the earlier people to case you) since I was SO SURE that you would be scum. I'll have to reevaluate him now but honestly I don't have the time to do so now.

thoughts?

Dormio hasn't had a lot of interactions himself but other people have and a scum flip from him would help me to read them better (mostly Shin honestly). Other people I probably need to reread are Haze, Iris, and Kaoz.

and what do you think now?

Well a town flip on me would be pretty helpful too, I'd say. Especially concerning Haze and Kaoz.

Not to mention you and Snike ;/

thoughts?

unrelated maybe: I feel very ??? about refa and blitz atm, so dorm or j00 lynch would help me with those

thoughts?

@j00: my vote's still on elieson,you know. i find him the scummiest atm. even if he does flip town (i find you more likely to flip town than elieson which is why i'm not voting you) could still provide info via interactions/votal analysis.

refa how do you feel about shin

I agree with this line of reasoning, but everything else considered is j00 more likely to be scum than Elieson?

just answer my question paperblade instead of being deflective ;/

@Iris, you claimed you were townreading both Elie and j00. So, why were you so intent on finding out what Paperblade thought regarding which of the two will turn out to be scum?

questions for everyone~~

- what do you think are the chances of j00 and elieson being scum buddies?

- after manix's flip, how do you feel about elieson

- what do you think about the ppl who were strong proponents of dormio lynch??

I don't think both are scum, but, it is probably possible. (but, I don't think so, I think Elie is scum)

not any different

I will leave the last question's answer for later.

Also considering Kaoz's attitude towards Shin yesterday, they don't make sense as buddies mreh.

why not?

I also lost part of my post on Shin! Basically, my issue is that a majority of his content is defending himself (don't believe me, read his ISO yourself). I do agree with Kaoz's case; besides the one large content post where he voted Dormio (which I am honestly not bothered by still despite Dormio's flip), the only other person he cased was Elieson and something about it rubs me the wrong way. *shrugs* Blitz, I think I finally get what your case on Shin is. Correct me if I'm wrong (because I don't think your wording conveyed what you really meant), but it's not that Shin didn't do enough to get out of RVS, but moreso that he seems to be avoiding play that is considered scummy which he wouldn't care about as town.

Refa, please be my translator from now on!

To elaborate, I think I'd make a lot of sense as Elie's scumbuddy FYPOV (even before a reread) considering I waffled on him early on before defending him.

Kaoz sorta did that too, but not really all that much.

@Iris, can you tell us all your gut reads? (I don't want concrete stuff, I want your thought process basically)

Whilst Refa was strongly on the Dormio wagon, there's odd tidbits he said that make me feel that it was out of benefit for town - I can't see how offering a NL would benefit scum at all.

why do you think NL wouldn't benefit scum?

He's massively dropped off the radar, he made a fairly decent push against me early on and answered a few odd questions but he didn't do much other than ask people what they thought of things and townread Dormio towards the end - and then he was absent for a whole day. (Pls prod mods) It just feels like he made a couple of appearances and then let the game run itself.

your condition isn't much better than that though and this (underlined)

Shin's Blitz vote is really weird, because he barely mentioned him earlier and votes him only at this point, with the reason that Blitz hasn't done anything since. He even says it's likely that there were scum on the Dormio wagon and to be cautious about the people swapping wagons out of nowhere, but has got pretty general comments on those players bar Iris, which he honestly has made a more compelling argument to vote for than Blitz.

Voting an inactive despite that just feels lazy and not very genuine. I could've understood his points against Blitz last phase, but not suspecting him for those posts before and voting him just now almost feels like an OMGUS. He was also very passive during the turbolynching and basically said someone else had to come and decide the lynch.

what made you think you were getting lynched?

So, let's see. I don't think either vanilla claim is meaningful since it says in the OP that there's a "non-zero number" of vanillas in this game and vanilla is a fair fake claim for a power role too, especially D1 (it gets riskier later on). I don't think the self-vote/offer is inherently meaningful either, it's basically AtE. I'll give Elieson some credit for actually voting himself when it was just before deadline though and because he apparently didn't know what was going on. Does anyone think Elieson lied about coming back so late though?

I think Elie lying is a possibility and I don't like how Elie pretty much voted himself the same moment Shin unvoted, meaning, he only brought himself back to his original position. It might actually be a coincidence, but, it is possible Shin and Elie had planned it.

I am gonna have to read the last 2 pages tomorrow after I get back home (from an invitation) or in a bit (but more likely later)cause I gotta do some stuff irl

##Vote: Elieson

for now

[Refa]

Reevaluated my case on Elieson (yesterday), reread all of those people (in a post today, no less), Kaoz was tunneling on Shin all of yesterday.

I'll reread Elieson again though, just in case I'm being dumb.

[Shin]

why do you think NL wouldn't benefit scum?

I think Elie lying is a possibility and I don't like how Elie pretty much voted himself the same moment Shin unvoted, meaning, he only brought himself back to his original position. It might actually be a coincidence, but, it is possible Shin and Elie had planned it.

Well, I was under the assumption that the only time scum wouldn't want someone lynched is if it were one of their own. Unless Refa were hypothetically scum with either j00 or Eli, trying to save his buddy, it wouldn't really help the cause of evil. It's also the dynamics I was getting,

Whilst a little paranoid, I can kinda see the logic. I can't really say anything that could really prove that it was a coincidence! The underlined stuff, all I can say is retrospection is a man's best friend. It was after the lynch that it kinda clicked. Also, I don't think comparing how active we both are really achieves much, unless you meant something else from it.

I agree with you on your opening paragraph about Eli though.

[Refa]

actually @ dormio i'm really bad at pushing cases especially day 1 when there's no actual evidence to work with, you can look back at probably any game i've played and see that i'm historically shitty at pushing cases, and prims and others often write postgames about me not being good at it, so if you're saying "oh look elie's unvoted his prime suspicion and moved on without explaining his thoughts", then you need to re-read my statement and see if you can interpret it in any other way since:

• I never said I feel like Manix is Town (I'm still leaning Manix as likely scum)
• As i said above, my vote on Manix was doing nothing. Continuing to blindly tunnel Manix shelters my eyes from the rest of the game and I'm not all about doing that
• My vote can apply pressure if used properly (one aspect would be to vote in non-tunneling ways), IMO, and Blitz reads to me as big talk and lots of bad cases and fluff, which I've identified
• You yourself just unvoted for the same gosh darn reason that you used when building your reason to vote for me

you have a reason to be unhappy with snike

you accept his content anyway

Ok maybe it's not as similar as it is with the explaination you're lumping me with but the point is that me parking my vote and throwing desperation attack after desperation attack at Manix, who nobody else feels is scummy, isn't gonna change anything other than force me to tunnel my reads and probably piss manix off. It's a lose:lose situation, would you rather have me be useless because it sounds like you want me to be tunnely and useless since you of all players should know that on D1, there is no such thing as a strong case unless claims/flips are involved.

You need to address this post, Blitz.

[Refa]

(in retrospect, I should probably make it clear that my own thoughts haven't changed based on his D1 play; honestly the worst thing about Elieson is how he dropped off of the map on D2)

[j00]

this post bothers me is not exactly why most of you have mentioned (but, I do think what Manix had said to begin with was self explanatory and didn't need the second explanation and I personally think both implied pretty much the same thing anyway), but mainly because this post is pretty much exactly what Mole Knight (Randa in Shovel Knights Mafia) did. Mole Knight was pretty much pursing an impossible case on Plague Knight (Paperblade) with a case that was wrong and was getting flak for it and so, he had used a very similar post to get out of tunneling Plague Knight and move on to his secondary scumread. Now, the reason I find this post bad is because Elie had been taking flak from people for going after Manix and he used that post to ditch going after Manix and got to start going after someone else. (The reason this kind of post looks bad to me is mostly because it tries to imply that the person who was casing has no faults, but the fault lies on the person that was being cased while trying to get away with not having to go after said person anymore.)

Also, as I had sort of implied earlier, Elie wouldn't stick to target that takes him nowhere, but, after that post, he was trying to get away from said target and therefore the previous theory no longer applies.

I'm having trouble understanding this part, you're basically saying you think Elie is bad for ditching his Manix read? But you seem to think it's bad because some other person who was scum has done this in another game, do you think his reason for dropping Manix was particularly poor too?

What I meant about Snike being defensive was that he had a case on me, yet he spent a lot of time directly refuting my case on him instead of elaborating why I was scummy in a way that would convince others to vote me, i.e. he was focusing on not making himself look bad from me instead of trying to push why I was bad to convince others.

I don't get your "what made you think you were getting lynched" question, for a long time the wagon was either me or Elieson.

Blitz also asks a lot of general questions like "thoughts on this?" which I assume he'll have more comments about after reading the last two pages. Would like content from Elieson, Haze and Via, Kaoz is also supposed to be back tomorrow. The latter three are definitely interesting to hear views from since they weren't on the Dormio wagon.

Shin, did the last Blitz post change your opinion on him in any way?

[Percivalé]

I'm here. reading

[Elieson]

Hey all. So last week some major shit happened and it pretty much impacted the stability of my mental self which honestly hasn't happened yet, but I think i've figured out how to cope with it.

Also holiday planning, prep work and party hosting for 45+ people took a lot out of me, and well i'm finally done cleaning up and wrapping up after the holiday debacle.

I hate to be that guy but did anything happen that I should just absolutely know before i commence participating into D2?

[Refa]

I don't think there's anything you need to know going into today. No claims, no guilties =(, etc.

[Snike]

Sorry for not being active, I've been working longer and longer shifts recently.

I think you're focusing way too much on vanillas. Prims mentioned that this would be a vanilla heavy game beforehand (comparing it to FE13 DLC Mafia) and that game had 6 vanillas (and it was 13P). I know you're scumreading j00 for your own reasons and that's fine, but I don't think the claim itself is telling.

I might be but like I dunno, even if we assume 7(!) vanillas that's still a significant proportion to show up on d1-d2 including Manix. It's still bugging me.

At the same time I'm voting Iris over reasons unrelated to the vanilla claims so saying I focusing way too much on the vanilla thing sort of implies I'm almost solely focusing on that? I mean I think it's an important issue to look at so of course I'm going to focus on it, but it isn't really true to say I'm not aware of what else is going on in thread.

@Thoughts: The Dormio ML made it clear to me that I need to reevaluate how I'm thinking about this game. Part of it is looking at Refa and yourself, because I've been feeling really uneasy about the both of you and that really hasn't been abated so far.

I'll try to address more tomorrow after work, but for now I need to sleep.

pedit: my evidence is that i forgot to press the post button