FE13 Tier List + Character Comparisons

[Espinosa]

I decided I'd revisit the character tier list and think what makes each character as good as they are. Didn't bother going below Frederick since the units there are all pretty bad:

A+ Tier

Yen'fay - 50 spd Assassin with flawless hit rate options, both faires and two breakers. Has a proc skill problem that could warrant him going down.

Walhart - can be a General/Great Knight/Conqueror without any weaknesses. Everyone's using General Walhart nowadays, but GK/Conq Walhart is faster and has sword access. 2 breakers, Luna, Pavise, high attack and defence. Still destroyed by Sorcs. Could go down - maybe A+ and A should be merged.

A Tier

Miriel - Renewal Sorc with a ton of mag, okay support unit. No other surprises. Probably needs to be lower on the list.

Priam - fixes Assassin's str/def problem by having good mods, 4 (!) breakers, Luna, Vantage, Swordfaire. Probably not a bad Hero either. Good luck deciding what weapon type you can afford to attack him with. Speed could be higher. I'm sorta tempted to have him be the 2nd character on this list after Robin. What does everyone think?

Gangrel - Sorc-slayer and also a fast Sorc if you're into that. Assassin Gangrel has big str issues until HP gets low. Berserker has none of that, but succumbs to swords too easily. Shouldn't be so high up I suppose.

Sully - fast-ish Assassin with Luna, 2 breakers, Vantage and Swordfaire. Negative str mod. I'm overrating her I think. Down.

Stahl - basically Priam with 3 less breaker skills. Preferred to Priam if you really care about Bowfaire / Hit Rate+20, which you might, I guess.

Lon'qu - -2 def mod is actually kinda bad for an Assassin. Myrmidon AND Thief class sets leaves him without much room for customisation. Has 2 breaker skills and 49 spd, but Yen'fay outclasses him p harshly.

Gaius - good offensive mods and Axebreaker. If there's no Berserker to harass in the opposing party, you may not achieve a lot with this guy. Suffers from the Thief/Assassin combo.

Say'ri - among other Assassins, stands out for Galeforce access. 2 breakers. Should probably be above Lon'qu and Gaius.

B Tier

Aversa - powerful Sorc with Galeforce and breakers. If Sorcs are really lolbroken, we should have more of them in A tier, and Aversa sounds like a good candidate.

Tharja - Sorc with Pavise and a dangerous General. Up.

Libra - meeker Miriel with Miracle and no support options.

Henry - slower than Gangrel, but his mods probably make him a better Sorc-slaying, Vengeance-abusing Assassin/Zerker. Up to A.

Vaike - down to the bottom of this tier if he stays here at all; it's been pointed out he makes an awful Assassin, and with no offensive proc skills he's hardly a very good Hero either.

Panne - killer mods, but absolutely nothing to proc. You can give her Strength+2 and pretend she has -faire skills as an Assassin. Down to the bottom of this tier IMHO.

Basilio - Good Hero with Pavise/Luna.

Gregor - Berserker or Assassin without any reliable procs.

Cordelia - you know what she can do, Vengeance/Galeforce as a Hero or Sorc with some extra speed. 3rd best character?

Flavia - Assassin that can tear enemy defences apart with Luna procs and try to survive with Pavise. One of the better ones I think? Not a bad Hero either. Up to A.

Olivia - inferior Say'ri without breakers for some chance at defending herself and poorer mods. One of the worst Assasins I think.

Kellam - slow Assassin with Luna, Pavise... Miracle/Renewal too? He's really weird; maybe you'd want him to be your General? He can stay here.

Chrom - Aether kills stuff when it procs. Running Rightful King with a bunch of other proc skills (Aegis/Luna?) makes Chrom dangerous to engage. Up, though not too high because 42 spd is doubled fairly easily.

Frederick - he's supposed to be one of the better Generals? Aegis and Res+10 let him survive for a while longer. Mostly outclassed by Walhart, but which General isn't?

Tell me what you think of such a revision:

S Tier

RobinM/RobinF

A Tier

Priam

Cordelia

Flavia

Yen'fay

Aversa

Tharja

Miriel

Henry

Gangrel

Stahl

Sully

Say'ri

B Tier

Chrom

Walhart

Basilio

Lon'qu

Gaius

Libra

Gregor

Olivia

Kellam

Panne

Vaike

Frederick

Don't think any of the C-tier residents deserve to rise... Then again, we can wonder if Frederick is better than Sumia for example. Sumia makes a pretty decent speedy General with Galeforce, Renewal, and Lancefaire to compensate for awful strength mods, but Fred is better at tanking and has breakers. I dunno.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Snoop Dogg

[General Horace]

just saying, wrath + Ruin + Vengeance is totally legit. Plus a potential Solidarity and Anathema, you have a unit with around 70 crit on most of the cast, (and lets just say Henry is the unit in question with 45 magic) with a +3 MT +25 hit ruin forge, lets say he's missing 50 HP. He oneshots literally every unit with a vengeance crit. It's gimmicky yes, but its still a possible option. For reference, a Celica's Gale double Vengeance (roughly the same odds) at the same HP only kills if said unit has 38 Res or lower (so like, Assassins an Berserkers) and Ruin kills everything. Even without Wrath, it still has 50 crit (providing you had anathema and solidarity support, which you should if you consider running it), and if you get a Vengeance crit at 46HP or more, it kills anything with 44 Res or lower, which is pretty awesome really. I think it's pretty useful if the game comes down to a sorcerer vs a sorcerer (which I don't think would be that uncommon) and run it with Tomebreaker to ensure you hit (ruin would have 90 hit anyway, which is pretty good).

Also a minor note about Chrom, he doesn't get Pavise, he gets Aegis. Unfourtunatly he can't become a thwomp.

Robin M also has Axefaire and Wrath, Robin F can't get them.

Also agree with Walhart dropping like a brick. I think he's almost better as a surprise factor unit, that can just come in and crush some teams if magic is eliminated early, but he takes 4 damage from a bowfaire!Yen'fay with a brave bow, and as someone with no luna/vengeance access, he's completely SOL. He's even kinda resistant to Luna and Vengeance with Pavise too.

Edited July 18, 2015 by General Horace

[Elieson]

Chrom can become a mobile Thwomp; it's a bit less Thwompy, but it's still pretty Thwomp.

I feel like the Thief tree is a bit underrated, what with Lucky Seven access (nearly an essential for early match quick kills from faster units vs slower ones.

Fred's like, the only Gen1 unit that gets a PavGis combo, with Res+10 and Luna. There isn't much else that he actually does need. His modifiers aren't the best, but I feel it's a good combo if only because despite being slow, it's nice when there aren't any threats of Hammer around.

I think Sumia should be placed up there around the likes of Kellam (probably right above him). Lancefaire/Luna gives her a bit of additional offense where it might otherwise be lacking, and she's the only General in the game (ignoring Robin!F of course) who can run Galeforce. Pavise access helps mitigate her questionable durability, and she can troll even harder with Renewal and/or Miracle. Where Kellam has Lucky Seven and Astra, Sumia's got more potential IMO. Plus, being a General with 38 speed (potentially 40 with Speed+2) gives her quite a bit of leeway in handling the occasional not-Assassin/Berserker, since it takes 43/45 speed to double her, and that benchmark isn't achieved except by the utmost of slayers. With Lancefaire, she has higher mods than Kellam in every stat (even +2 Str, with Lancefaire on), sans -5 in Defense. Lancefaire&Galeforce > Lucky Seven

Plus, she's the only Sage in the game with access to Galeforce. She's not crossing boundaries with anything fabulous, but a 45 speed (47 speed with Spd+2) Sage is pretty safe, and hits hard with 51 Mag and Luna. Kellam and her run Pavise arguably, but still her Galeforce niche does well on a +0Mag/+3Spd base modifier.

It's a shame that Sorcerers outclass Sages on the premise of Aversa's Nosferatu.

Also, I completely forgot that Kellam is the other assassin in the game that can run Luna+Pavise, but his 44 speed defeats the purpose of being an Assassin in the first place. Flavia > Kellam there.

---

Also, Panne and Olivia should switch places. Panne's modifiers are absolutely Fabulous, and Olivia being a 49 speed assassin with Speed+2 sucks compared to Panne being a natural 47 speed assassin. They run the same Proc (Astra) and Panne's far more likely to take advantage of it with Sword&LanceBreakers+Lucky Seven+Odd Rhythm. Olivia has Galeforce, but her stats are just so bad and she's got barely anything to buff her offense and hit rates

Oh, there's Swordfaire (which both have), but still, Galeforce is niche, where Panne is a more reliable Olivia with beter stats

Btw, I meant Astra for a Bow-based skill, not a natural skill. Hitting hard with Braves twice hits like a truck still, compared to Astra!Olivia, who still might not even double and is far less likely to land the hit

Edited July 18, 2015 by Elieson

[Espinosa]

@Horace

Crithax strats seem like something you'd only do if you were desperate tbqh. For the example you provided, the unit needs a Vengeance proc with a ton of HP lost to secure a OHKO with a Ruin forge, Solidarity and Anathema donors should be alive and kicking (Solidarity on Robin also tends to really limit the things s/he can do), and then you need to proc Vengeance (below 80% chance) and a crit (70% according to your calcs; didn't check), which is like a coin flip chance of murdering something. If you wanted to put a dent into something, you'd fire off Celica's instead. It's too luck-reliant to be featured as a sample of High Tier performance but yeah, I suppose Sorcs can do that as well.

Fixed Chrom's defensive skill as being Aegis (also useful since bow Assassins are kind of a problem for him). He's still better than Walhart and could top the B tier.

RobinM does have some advantages over RobinF as a physical unit; I just said that there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to run a Sorc RobinM because Res+10 is a mediocre exclusive skill (Axefaire does nothing for a Sorc, and Wrath is really wasting his skill space).

@Elieson

I dunno about Frederick's PavGis... How long will he live if attacked with Aversa's or Celica's? I think he barely makes it to B tier; Sumia could stay in C.

My problem with units that have Myrmidon and Thief class sets is that the only thing Thief adds to the mix is Lucky 7, which isn't really worth an entire class set in spite of being a pretty damn good skill. Lon'qu and Gaius suffer from this when they could use, basically, any other class set that's not, like, Mage or something (even then Lifetaker doesn't sound so bad).

Panne has the Thief class set not Myrmidon so she has neither Astra nor Swordfaire. For this reason, Olivia is a slightly better unit than her, regardless of whether Speed+2 is taken into account or not.

Tell me what other changes could be made. Updating the OP with everything we've got so far.

What does everyone think about Henry vs. Gangrel? Is +3 spd on an Assassin/Zerker lacking offence otherwise such a big deal?

[General Horace]

I think Gangrel is better only because he doubles sorcerers as a berserker.

and yeah derrrrp on the robin skills. I forgot it was a sorcerer analysis because I didn't read the top half.

I think Yen'fay could stand to drop too, he doesn't have Vengeance or Luna. I dunno if his extra speed is worth it. Lon'qu is essentially the same unit with slightly worse stats and he's like 10 slots lower. I'd say Tharja is better than Aversa too, I think Pavise is a better skill on Sorcerers than Galeforce.

It's hard to tell with the limited games we've had so far though. Maybe some chump will come and be awesome and show us what's up.

[Espinosa]

Nobody's actually tested Conqueror Walhart yet. He can still null his weaknesses with Conquest, and he gets +5 spd at the cost of -5 str and def. While 54 str/def as a General is awesome, 49 is far from bad, too. 39 spd is a lot harder to double by Sorcs, letting Walhart escape destruction at the hands of everyone besides +spd Robins and Speed+2 Sorc!Cordelia (and this is actually it). 44+ spd units still double him, but 49 def/Pavise/breakers should let him handle them decently and he still really puts a dent into things with Luna. I think he and Chrom could both be man enough to get into A tier, but top of B is fine too.

Yen'fay's advantages over Lon'qu are... Bowbreaker, Hit Rate+20, Bowfaire, plus slightly better offensive mods. The main point is that there's absolutely no reason to use Lon'qu when this guy's around. The 10 slots of difference is mostly explained by the fact that it's hard to compare competent Sorcs to, like, competent Assassins. Yen'fay might drop down a few slots, but I dunno where.

[Quintessence]

I also agree Gangrel is better than Henry as shown in the other match, but idk, we haven't tested Henry so much so it's like Gangrel's pros vs Henry's what? Theory? We need more matches because FE13 is so diverse due the wide options of team building a player has, because of reclass and different strategies.

[Ema Skye]

One thing I want to talk about, on the topic of Sorcerors, is the Shadowgift skill. Aversa and MorganF are the only units who get the skill (until if/when we open the doors to DLC/Spotpass).

Does anyone have any comments on Shadowgift's viability on Sages/Dark Fliers/Valkyries/Dark Knights, particular with Aversa's Night forges? Couple benefits I see are:

- Sage, Valkyrie and Dark Flier have higher speed caps, meaning they get doubled less frequently.

- Dark Flier gets a second weapon choice, reducing the Sorceror's vulnerability to Tomebreaker

- Dark Knight, Sage and Dark Knight have higher skill caps, meaning more frequent skill procs (2-5% skill procs are a bit trivial though, but extra Vengeance percent is cool).

- All four are squishier. While this means they get KOed sooner, it also means they synergize better with Vengeance.

Not too sure if these make up for the skill slot you lose for these new features, but I think they make an interesting discussion point.

[Elieson]

I contemplated Shadowgoft Aversa when building my last team. Shadowgift on Dark Flier means you need to run Iotes too, meaning she gets three skillslots to use, in exchange for slightly higher speed, worse defenses, worse offenses and lances, which she very likely won't use. She needs Vengeance otherwise no procs. I guess it could work but she'd still be all kinds of squishy.

Dark Knight is dumb because she gets lame stats overall, plus a random Lance weakness that can't be covered, and 4 slots for skills.

It might work on Sage!Morgan(F) but that's really it. Dark Flier pretty much requires Iotes and working with three skill slots (two after your Mandatory Proc) really limits your survivability. At least Sage can run good caps and morgans plethora of skills provide unpredictability.

Henry is slower than Gangrel. It matters a lot, meaning he gets Bravesmashed early game unless he runs Zerker, in which he gets wrecked by Assasswordins

Edited July 19, 2015 by Elieson

[General Horace]

I think Conqueror Walhart is pretty good. He has Balmung access to avoid getting doubled (which helps quite a bit I think) and well that's really it. 40 skill is kinda lowish, but he doesn't have vengeance anyway and there's very little difference in a 40 proc rate vs a 45 than an 80 vs a 90.

I'd say he's better than that clump of assassins above him. Chrom I think is better than reflected too, but I might have just had a few unfourtunate experiences against him, i'm not sure.

Edited July 22, 2015 by General Horace

[Espinosa]

General has only 41 skill actually, so it's only a 1 point difference from Conqueror. You may care about losing 5 strength and defence, though, but some would say stopping Walhart from getting doubled by nearly all Sorcs (Walhart's bane), a lot of Heroes, Dread Fighters, Brides, not to mention Great Lord Chrom.

Yeah, agreed, I've just been thinking about Chrom and Walhart moving up to A on the basis of the recent games. Not so sure about them beating the Assassins though; the ones in A tier really stand out (Anna is an Assassin too, remember, and she is at the very bottom of the list), I think.

Chrom's Dread Fighter access makes him a lot more flexible, too, losing lances for tomes and axes.

[Elieson]

Anna's not a threatening assassin, what with her F-tier mods and 0 zkill procs

[General Horace]

I dunno if I'm just basing it on the notion of Walhart just crushing assassins in general (although just because he beats them pretty easily doesn't mean he's the better unit) is making me say he's better, but I honestly think he is. He doesn't even really mind being doubled by said assassins (what with high defence and pavise) and can easily take them out with pretty good hitrates if he's running swordbreaker (which is common, i'd think).

Maybe it's just personal preference though, I'd rather have Walhart on the team than any assassin sans Flavia, Priam, and maybe Sully/Stahl (Robin doesn't count). Astra is just terrible against high defence units, making Yen'fay and especially Say'ri worse off. Chrom is pretty rad too. I initially came in to move Cordelia up, but well, she's already pretty much at the top. I'd honestly say she's better than Priam though. His skills are fantastic, but his speed just isn't high enough I don't think.

[Espinosa]

Crushing them in general or as a General? :P Cause Conqueror's 5 less defence does make Walhart more susceptible to physical damage of all sorts, especially when doubled with a brave weapon. Also don't forget that not every unit with a weakness is bad - every class and unit pretty much has one.

46 speed sounds good to me, but yeah, if Priam's speed were higher, you could get away with turning him into a Hero or something. Otherwise he's just the meanest Assassin you've got, with four breaker skills to boot. I do think he's better than Bride/Hero!Cordelia (though Cordelia is also a very viable Sorc).

I moved Say'ri to the top of B tier, also because of the Galeforce nerf we introduced a moment ago. This can be seen as hurting Cordelia and Aversa as well.

[Elieson]

Cordelia just has so many niches that she's above average at;

Bride Sorcerer Killer (Lancefaire+Vengeance+Tomebreaker and good speed)

Solid Sorc (Tomebreaker, Axebreaker, Bowbreaker, Vengeance, Speed+2)

kinda Jack-of-all-Trades Hero (Tomebreaker, Sol/Vengeance, Breakers x3)

Yen'fay's rockin speed mod is just crushed by Astra limitation. He's probably one of the better Bride killers (with Bowfaire, speed to ensure doubling like any bride, and Lancebreaker), but he's outclassed by reliability.

Chrom with Aegis/Luna/Aether/RFK is just a solid staple, and his free skill offers him even more with Hit+20 to ensure Brave strikes land those insanely likely proc rates. He has pocket bowbreaker to pull out braves and decimate, and magical based Aether hits fucking hard.

IMO Say'ri is a worse Yen'Fay, because she needs to sacrifice a skill slot for Speed+2 to really push her doubling capability, loses out on Bowfaire, and gets GaleForce, which is pretty bad in early stages of a match (when she should be seeing the most action). I'd consider dropping her a spot under Basilio, who's a reliable tank with great mods, Pavise/Luna access and pretty good class options that allow him to counter Say'ri in so many ways.

Sumia over Panne, please. Sumia has both Pavise & Luna, plus Speed+2/Galeforce/Lancefaire. Panne has two breakers (coincidentally, covering the only wpns that are effective against her), 0 procs and...Str+2?

Libra slightly higher, probably over Lon'qu. Libra's gonna last a long time as a Sorcerer, what with Renewal+Vengeance+Miracle and Tomefaire+Aversa'sNight. Lon'qu's not nearly as durable, and Gaius isn't doing anything incredible (like, he's an assassin with Sol, or a Warrior/hero with Vantage/Astra, which isn't that stellar)

Edited July 22, 2015 by Elieson

[Quintessence]

Imo, Sage should be bottom A or Top B tier, Berserker should drop below Warrior.

Imo, Warrior is a better class due to Bow access, more bulk, similar Str, better Skl. Its Spd loss can be compensated with Yewfelle and has slightly more options than Berserker.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Ah, but that means the Warrior can't double with a brave weapon. Provided, Berserkers who aren't Gangrel can't really either, but those braves are an important thing.

[Elieson]

braves

#This

[Quintessence]

Idk, the matches with Berserkers have shown the contrary. The only splendid job a zerker does is Gangrel slaying a Sorc, the rest is Avatar, but Avatar is good in mostly every class, the rest are kinda crappy

[AnonymousSpeed]

Idk, the matches with Berserkers have shown the contrary. The only splendid job a zerker does is Gangrel slaying a Sorc, the rest is Avatar, but Avatar is good in mostly every class, the rest are kinda crappy

Two sorcs, thank you very much.

[Quintessence]

Two sorcs, thank you very much.

One, two or a million. The point still stands. I mean, Gangrel being a really good unit on itself doesn't mean Berserkers in general are worth Top A spot and are over Great Lord, Conquerer or THWOMP. Zerkers are limited and have less Skl % rate, a high dodge or breaker unit can make fun of a Zerker and run safe turns while other classes are more versatile.

I'll go into Character Tier List later on.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Well, admittedly, that's true, but of all weaponlocked classes, Bersekers are by far the best. I guess they aren't the greatest on their own, but they're still good due to that strength.

[Quintessence]

Have we tried a good Swordmaster or Sniper build? We've reached Berserkers', apparent, maximum limit, we haven't explored much about other classes yet as the meta has been centered on Sorcs, Assassins, THWOMPS and now Great Lord. I'd like to test how good or terrible are other classes.

I would like to see a high crt swordie with Sol Katti and a high dodge build or something. And test alternatives with Snipers, but eww

[Espinosa]

Swordmaster is a little bulkier than Assassin and could avoid getting Brave Lance killed easier. The lack of bows really hurts though. Their high res stands out so maybe male SMs are "mage killers" or something of the sort? Vengeance/Luna/Aether tome-users could care less what kind of a mage killer you think you are regardless.

SM isn't a bad class, but it's just outclassed by Assassin almost entirely, and all characters with SM access just so happen to access Assassin as well. This is why it shouldn't appear in the metagame very often.

[General Horace]

Quint, in my gen2 match against doof, I had a swordmaster Yarne with Wrath, Gamble, Anathema and Solidarity support, along with the Sol Katti. He kind of did work? It's horribly gimmicky though and in the gen 1 meta you won't have nearly as good of stats as Yarne had, (since Panne is a super good mom statwise).

But yeah not having bows just hurts them too much. It helps not being instagibbed by braves though.