Batmafia!!! Game Over

[Refa]

@Refa, was TG on at the time you asked her that question? It doesn't take a long time to answer, and it feels like scum flaking if she was. I'm getting to your defense of her now.

In light of Sniper's recent info, I want people to keep considering Mancer now that we know the "clear" was a no result tracker. I also am now newb town reading Sniper Knight, because I did the exact same fucking thing in FE13 DLC Mafia as a tracker. I targeted Makaze, got a didn't visit result, and then claimed it because it felt relevant to the lynch (Makaze flipped town and we lost the game horribly but that doesn't matter shh). So his mindset coming from a town perspective seems really familiar to me.

Also Mancer. More scummy play, enough to bump him up over TG in my priority. So, he is townreading Refa, someone scumreading him through 90% of the game, while scumreading Sniper, someone who claimed with the intent of clearing him. There are two scenarios I can imagne, and both involve Mancer being scum wrt his Sniper actions.

A: He is scum struggling (most likely.)

B: Scum!Sniper tried to save his life and he wants to make Sniper look better on his flip (kind of a reverse bus, also unlikely.)

##Unvote:

##Vote: MancerNecro

I wanted to get that out, but I probably have time to get another post out and look at other players.

Asked what question?

I can't speak for other people scumreading Sniper Knight, but I agree that him claiming the clear is more likely to come from town. My problem isn't with that, it's with the rest of his content. Actually, what do you think of his slot's content overall (or lack thereof)?

Okay, to clarify on your Mancer portion (since I feel like it's based off of my case), my issue isn't that Mancer is townreading someone who's scumreading him (I've done that loads of times as town). It's moreso that he's like never responded to my case on him, so it bothers me that he's townreading someone (me) that he hasn't even really paid attention too. I don't think him scumreading Sniper for "clearing" him is scummy, though.

[Sniper Knight]

@ Refa You only had a PR yesterday? That would explain it, since I thought you had one on both days. No, I've never played forum mafia before, sorry if I'm not doing very well. I associate bad playing with scuminess, and I'm having a hard time trying to find scum without reading into their playing. I'm not getting as many scum vibes from Tiny, but if Dreamer is scum then she looks a lot guiltier. Her posts are just a little to ambivalent for me to feel secure about her.

[Tiny_Manakete]

Before I give my thoughts on your claim, I have a question. Since you knew that Clarinets docced Proto/Blitz, why did you choose to protect me over them?

Like I said, it was entirely a gut feeling from my first game and seeing as you made some pretty strong points, I used that role on you instead.

[spoiler=Not Game Relevant]

Also why is your badge Hinoka if you're Nohrian? Pretty suspicious IMO.

That is something that shouldn't be speaked of ShhhHhhh

[Refa]

Actually, I might as well answer the not claim related portions while I'm available. Tiny, please use multiple quotes in the future instead of replying inside of the quote because it's actually really annoying to reply to that.

1) Fair enough regarding your townreads.

2) Okay. This doesn't actually make me feel better about that portion, still.

3) I think you're misunderstanding my point. I know that you had scumreads on Mancer and Dreamer prior to me asking you that question. My problem is that after I explicitly asked you what your top three scumreads were, you failed to mention your prior scumreads on Mancer and Dreamer. Why is that?

[Tiny_Manakete]

3) I think you're misunderstanding my point. I know that you had scumreads on Mancer and Dreamer prior to me asking you that question. My problem is that after I explicitly asked you what your top three scumreads were, you failed to mention your prior scumreads on Mancer and Dreamer. Why is that?

Oh sorry. It felt more convenient...

Sniper was much more relevant to me than Mancer and Dreamer, so I might have forgotten about that whoops. Plus I dropped Dreamer further down my lynch priority, so...

[Refa]

@ Refa You only had a PR yesterday? That would explain it, since I thought you had one on both days. No, I've never played forum mafia before, sorry if I'm not doing very well. I associate bad playing with scuminess, and I'm having a hard time trying to find scum without reading into their playing. I'm not getting as many scum vibes from Tiny, but if Dreamer is scum then she looks a lot guiltier. Her posts are just a little to ambivalent for me to feel secure about her.

Nah, I'm not trying to say that you've been playing badly (although you really should talk less about your role until tomorrow and give your thoughts on the current discussion at hand). I asked that because if you said you'd played forum mafia before, I'd have called you out on some of your misplays because I don't think they could come from anyone else other than a newer player. As it is, I feel better about your slot (you're...now a null read again, congratulations). Fair enough about your reads, sorry for ragging on them so much because I can better understand where you're coming from now.

[Refa]

1) Like I said, it was entirely a gut feeling from my first game and seeing as you made some pretty strong points, I used that role on you instead.

2) That is something that shouldn't be speaked of ShhhHhhh

1) Fair enough; also FWIW, I inexplicably appreciate the thought of being protected now more than ever before (no relation to anything else, of course). Anyways, my thoughts on your claim are...the claimed role itself is fine (I can see it existing with the other flipped/claimed roles, and it's not something I'd feel comfortable lynching on its own merits), but you haven't been able to prove it yet (even the watch could have been faked considering that Clarinets outed who he targeted yesterday) and that's worrisome. Still, if your last action is decoy, that should be easily proveable enough. Being proveable isn't indicative of alignment, but at least then it'll be obvious that you're a JoaT (which is less likely to be scum) and not like a Rolecop.

2) You should be lynched for that alone.

Oh sorry. It felt more convenient...

Sniper was much more relevant to me than Mancer and Dreamer, so I might have forgotten about that whoops. Plus I dropped Dreamer further down my lynch priority, so...

I guess I can understand that. What are your thoughts on them now?

[ZoesMad]

Asked what question?

I can't speak for other people scumreading Sniper Knight, but I agree that him claiming the clear is more likely to come from town. My problem isn't with that, it's with the rest of his content. Actually, what do you think of his slot's content overall (or lack thereof)?

Okay, to clarify on your Mancer portion (since I feel like it's based off of my case), my issue isn't that Mancer is townreading someone who's scumreading him (I've done that loads of times as town). It's moreso that he's like never responded to my case on him, so it bothers me that he's townreading someone (me) that he hasn't even really paid attention too. I don't think him scumreading Sniper for "clearing" him is scummy, though.

1. The question where you asked TG for her top 3 lynch priorities.

2. The most off putting thing was Corinthian's god awful listpost and Diego vote, and while Sniper isn't playing super townie necessarily, he hasn't done anything overly scummy either imo, and the whole thing wrt Mancer is just too newb town for me to ignore, because like I said I was in that situation.

3. OK that makes sense (also not based off your case entirely, I partially dropped my Mancer case because it was annoying to read him with Sniper being so vague. His Sniper scumread seems to me like it comes to way too many assumptions without looking at the intent behind Sniper's reason for posting. Would a Scum!Sniper out his tracker claim so easily? For some not very strong towncred? And also he hasn't ever really focused on you except for defense purposes (iirc I may be wrong not ISOing rn) and now you're "confirmed town." He jumps to the conclusion that him being roleblocked also would lead to a conclusion that he's scum for Sniper, when it could be any number of things.

[ZoesMad]

Also what the hell is a decoy. Other than that TG's claim doesn't tip me in one direction or the other.

[Baldrick]

About 85% of Baldrick's game has been tunneling the shit out of TG.

Is that to two significant figures? Do you mind showing me your calculations?

then starts D3 by instantly voting TG and claiming he wants consolidation.

Do you still think that was serious? Consolidation is when you stop developed your reads and try to reach a majority. How do you reconcile that with my recent posts?

After 1 nothing post, rapid fires 6 questions at TG in 2 posts

Missing the context of the posts. TG hadn't posted a defense at the time of the nothing post, the next post I responded to her defence, she responded to that post so I asked some more questions.

In any case, this is a forum, not a real-time chat, so what's wrong with asking a lot of questions?

encourages people to vote TG because of our D2 mistake regarding Clarinets,

Tiny has been my biggest scumread since before Clarinets was even lynched, so that's a misinterpretation.

then... his reasoning for keeping his vote on Tiny feels weak? Saying that Tiny feels "guarded" doesn't feel like a concrete enough reason (especially when you say that "there's nothing wrong with it")

It doesn't make me more confident in the lynch, but it doesn't make me want to lynch anyone else more. Should I switch to a lesser scumread, or stop voting, just because her defence isn't terrible?

I also don't see what's wrong with my reason. Town should be talkative because they know the lynch is unjustified. Scum would be more worried about making a slip or contradicting their earlier reads.

@Refa: you said you'd sheep this case, you could reply to this as well.

[Refa]

^^@Baldrick

-Actually, I'm pretty sure that only 81.74% of your content was related to your scumread on Tiny. Way more reasonable.

-I figured your early consolidation vote was a pressure vote, but it bothered me because I didn't get why you would need to pressure vote someone who already had a decent amount of votes on them.

-I agree that he's misinterpreting your Tiny case (WRT to its relation to your Clarinets case). Again, I have some of the same issues with you that I have with Mancer, although it's on a lesser scale. It doesn't seem like you're actually reevaluating your reads despite asking a lot of questions.

-Don't have an issue with your last point. I thought the primary basis for your Tiny case was that she felt guarded, which felt like pretty shit reasoning to me. Your actual case is fine.

1. The question where you asked TG for her top 3 lynch priorities.

2. The most off putting thing was Corinthian's god awful listpost and Diego vote, and while Sniper isn't playing super townie necessarily, he hasn't done anything overly scummy either imo, and the whole thing wrt Mancer is just too newb town for me to ignore, because like I said I was in that situation.

3. OK that makes sense (also not based off your case entirely, I partially dropped my Mancer case because it was annoying to read him with Sniper being so vague. His Sniper scumread seems to me like it comes to way too many assumptions without looking at the intent behind Sniper's reason for posting. Would a Scum!Sniper out his tracker claim so easily? For some not very strong towncred? And also he hasn't ever really focused on you except for defense purposes (iirc I may be wrong not ISOing rn) and now you're "confirmed town." He jumps to the conclusion that him being roleblocked also would lead to a conclusion that he's scum for Sniper, when it could be any number of things.

1. Oh, no clue. See, her profile status is set to PRIVATE so I don't actually know when exactly she's on (I can just get a general idea over a longer period of time by checking her posting status). Her last post was only 10 minutes before mine though, so I don't see why she shouldn't have been on.

2. Yeah, I don't really have a convincing response to this because I'm not scumreading the dude anymore. Nice to know your opinion, though.

3. Again, not much else to say here. I can understand your reasoning for why his read on Sniper bothers you, it's just that for me it strikes me as more bad play over scummy play. In total agreement with the rest of what you said.

Also what the hell is a decoy. Other than that TG's claim doesn't tip me in one direction or the other.

It's where all actions on the selected target target the user instead. It's kind of like a weird variation of a bodyguard.

[Green Poet]

I don't buy the claim.

I am a JoaT with a one-shot of both a watcher, decoy and doctor.

We already have an essentially non-functional JoaT in the game; it strikes me as odd in terms of setup balance that there would exist, within the same setup, a JoaT with actually useful/powerful abilities, and what is essentially a vanilla/joke PR-giver JoaT.

Like, at that point, I would just look at the setup and think, "Izhuark's role isn't actually powerful, so is there a point of making it a JoaT in name, when I see it juxtaposed with an actual JoaT on the same faction? I may as well move parts of the 'real JoaT' onto the 'joke JoaT' and help make the setup a little less swingy." Overall, TG's claim is not entirely unrealistic, but it seems unnatural to me.

Compounded with the fact that we already have an unlimited-shot doc flipped, I feel like it's a stretch to give us another doc shot?

Furthermore, her N1 investigative action conveniently does not tell us anything original, and she didn't corroborate Clarinets' action before when such a contribution would have been relevant. Now, there isn't a precedent in her posts that would give us reason to think that this claim wasn't faked shortly before it was posted.

My last issue with the claim is entirely semantics-related, but I think it is potentially very telling. I don't like how TG stated how she has "one-shot of both a watcher, decoy and doctor."

While it's possibly just a typo, TG has made zero grammatical errors in her posts up till now that have stuck out to me. That there is one here just reads like she invented her third role on the spot and forgot to change the conjunction to "each" or something, because her claim is fake, and was initially written with two roles in mind.

This becomes more likely when we consider the way TG likes to use Oxford commas. A brief examination of her public SF profile led me to this introduction: "You can call me Tiny, Manakete, or Sammy." (I hope I'm not imposing by citing something out-of-game-thread. I took an example of something that was relatively public and quick to access from her profile, so I hope that doesn't offend.)

Note the use of the Oxford comma there, whereas no such comma is found in between "decoy and doctor" in her claim. Thus, I'm led to believe that her initially-written fakeclaim was "one-shot of both a decoy and doctor," before she found that she needed to fake her N1 investigation result and added "watcher, " to her claim without changing either her comma usage nor conjunction from "both" to "each."

[Green Poet]

That grammar theory was the graspiest case I've ever written good lord

I still think it's got a solid chance of being true though

[Refa]

We already have an essentially non-functional JoaT in the game; it strikes me as odd in terms of setup balance that there would exist, within the same setup, a JoaT with actually useful/powerful abilities, and what is essentially a vanilla/joke PR-giver JoaT.

Like, at that point, I would just look at the setup and think, "Izhuark's role isn't actually powerful, so is there a point of making it a JoaT in name, when I see it juxtaposed with an actual JoaT on the same faction? I may as well move parts of the 'real JoaT' onto the 'joke JoaT' and help make the setup a little less swingy." Overall, TG's claim is not entirely unrealistic, but it seems unnatural to me.

Tiny can go defend herself on most of your points, but Izhuark's role was just a vanilla equivalent that could prove itself; considering my own role, I'm not really bothered that his role was useless and her claimed role is not. So yeah, it's not a CC at al...wait, weren't you talking about limited shot actions earlier? If you're a JoaT, you should just be upfront about it and CC her so that there's confirmed scum between the two of you.

[MancerNecro]

##Unvote: Sniper Knight

##Vote: Tiny Goddess

Apart from Green Poet's cases which I agree with, there's also the fact that Tiny Goddess's night one result would have proved that I was scum going on the kill in addition to my claim that I was roleblocked. Think about it: She watched Proto and got the result that Clarinets (and only Clarinets) visited Proto. This means that the protection role from Clarinets was not the role that stopped the night one mafia kill. Rather, it would be the flipped roleblocker (Proto) that stopped the kill so whoever got roleblocked would have to be scum going on the night kill and failing. I'm surprised that she did not bring up her night one result when I claimed to be roleblocked. Also, I agree with Green Poet regarding the fact that Tiny Goddess's claim failed to bring anything new to the table.

@Gaius: What question did you ask me? I was inactive due to many reasons so I'm afraid I might have missed your queries. Also, must I really scum read anyone who scum reads me? Even if I find them townie? That's really just grasping on a case to vote me and reeks of OMGUS.

@Refa: I admit that my cases have been pretty much static but that's because I got busy and just about lost interest in the game after my night one action failed. Having my night two action succeed and getting slightly better irl motivated me to play slightly more though.

[MancerNecro]

That grammar theory was the graspiest case I've ever written good lord

I still think it's got a solid chance of being true though

I think that was a good catch. Also, small wording errors like that really mean a lot imo.

[Baldrick]

@Dreamer: That actually bothers me, since my read on Tiny is not dissimilar to my read on Clarinets.
But if you second-guess yourself too much, you'll just be paralysed with indecision

@Refa:


1) Where is the scum intent?

Scum tend to waffle since it allows them to go either way later on, depending on what's more convenient. Her early reads on Diego and Dreamer were tempered; Diego was trying to get us out of RVS, Dreamer might be having trouble expressing herself.
She was more decisive with her Poly and Bakura reads in MSM.
Like Green said earlier, his reluctance to vote Clarinets D2 might be because of Balcerzak's wagon analysis of Diego and trying to avoid being seen on the wagon.
I guess there's less scum intent in her D3 play


4) ????

...!

I can't answer questions 2, 3 or 5.

I feel like she's getting wagoned because her waffly as fuck posting style is screaming "please scumread me" over her content actually being scummy.

This was actually my initial reaction to the Mancer case. Except for the waffly as fuck part.

I'm splitting my post up. Also

##unvote

I think Mancer made it L-1. If Green thinks her and Tiny's roles can't co-exist she should say so, but until then I don't want anyone getting overexcited and hammering.

[Baldrick]

Never finished that paragraph. "I guess there's less scum intent in her D3 play since she has a lot of attention on her and based on how she claimed the guilty in MSM I might be wrong in thinking she would be confident as town. But overall, I can still see enough scum intent and a point of difference in her early game play."

[Green Poet]

Nah, I don't feel that a discussion of my role is relevant to today's lynch

[Tiny_Manakete]

@GP: I do happen to make it a habit of checking my spelling and such before I post, so I might have overlooked that pretty quickly. Also none taken on that opening post I made on forums... Eep.

Apart from Green Poet's cases which I agree with, there's also the fact that Tiny Goddess's night one result would have proved that I was scum going on the kill in addition to my claim that I was roleblocked. Think about it: She watched Proto and got the result that Clarinets (and only Clarinets) visited Proto. This means that the protection role from Clarinets was not the role that stopped the night one mafia kill. Rather, it would be the flipped roleblocker (Proto) that stopped the kill so whoever got roleblocked would have to be scum going on the night kill and failing. I'm surprised that she did not bring up her night one result when I claimed to be roleblocked.

I'm... not sure what you're trying to grasp at here. There are plenty of other roles that might've stopped the kill. Plus, Proto's role has the ability to roleblock two players at a time. I'm still unsure what you're trying to say in this part as if you were scum. This doesn't prove that you were at all so..???

[Baldrick]

@refa: Tiny said D2 that she felt better about Dreamer so I'm not bothered by her not bringing Dreamer up. But considering she's scumreading Sniper, she should have more to say about her interaction with Mancer.

Mancer did back down against Proto, but fair point on Gaius. It did bother me that he seemed to stop pushing Gaius when Gaius stopped pushing him.

Tiny's claim seems townish. Faking JoaT with one already flipped isn't the best idea.

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

im here. i read. im still onboard w/tg goin and lookin at dreamer/elie past that

[Mitsuki]

Balcerzak has been prodded, again

Elieson has been prodded

The prods are back [Votals 3.3]
Tiny Goddess (4): Yoloswag, Green Poet, Elieson, Mancer
Mancer (2): Refa, Gaius
Baldrick (1): JBCWK

Not voting: Balcerzak, Tiny Goddess, Dreamer, Sniper Knight, Baldrick

12 hours and a half until the Batdivorce! It takes 7 votes to lynch someone.

I'm potentially looking for a sub for Balcerzak since he didn't reply to nor see the previous prod. I will wait for another day, though. Contact me if you'd like to sub in! (Or if you know if something happened to him).

[Dreamer]

@Dreamer: That actually bothers me, since my read on Tiny is not dissimilar to my read on Clarinets.

I don't get your point by this. You're reffering to my "null reads" post right?

I'm currently reading again, so let's see if i can think of something better.

[Baldrick]

Yeah, my wording isn't clear there but I meant I agree with that point and it makes me worried I'm making the same mistake.

##vote: Mancer

Big plays, bigger flip-flops. He's inched ahead on the lynch priority because his cases today have felt unnatural to me; I've already said I don't like the Gaius read progression, the Sniper read is just rehashing other arguments, and he feels too enthusiastic about Green's grammar point on Tiny, as though he's worried about the sudden resurrection of his wagon.

I'll be back before phase end if it's necessary to switch back