In spite of anime tripe, Persona 4 is one of the best written games of all time

[Thane]

Hello everyone.

So last week I wrote about why the story of Persona 3 didn't quite do it for me, and the reasons were many and varied. For a lot of people, this is a rather controversial opinion, so if you're curious about that, I recommend reading that thread instead: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=60119

Now, onto the topic at hand, which will contain more or less every single spoiler in one of the best games ever made, so if you're a fan of JRPG's or just any video game with a lot of content and a juicy story, I'd advise you to play it or watch a let's play first.

You can't talk about Persona 4 without mentioning Inaba, a small village in the middle of nowhere. This is a curious setting when compared to the rest of the series, but it makes a lot of sense when thinking about it. In Persona 3, you were in a gigantic city where you could only walk to certain places of interest, therefore surely missing out on a lot of other things this fictional city had to offer, but in Persona 4 it's constantly hammered down that you've pretty much already seen everything worth seeing after the first two days. However, this is not a bad thing since this breeds a sense of familiarty that's important when trying to make the player care about what's going on. It also perfectly sets things up for a murder mystery since this creates a sense of looming danger that the killer could be anyone and that anyone could be killed and/or kidnapped.

The fact that you live with your very likeable relatives, one of which who (of course) is a detective, and try to look for a killer create some genuinely tense moments due to the supernatural elements that can't be explained to your guardian who knows there's a lot of that's going on although he's unable to prove it.

THIS is how you create atmosphere; a sense of danger in an otherwise idyllic yet boring town is a brilliant setting not only for the life simulation aspect of the game, but also for doing the heavy detective work.

Moving on to the cast, this is probably one of the best casts in any video game I've ever played - even though they rely on tropes and anime clichés, there's always more to the characters than they let on. However, even that isn't the biggest reason as to why they work so well together; it's their different ways of approaching a problem whenever they're stuck with their detective work. Yosuke is analytical and logical, Chie goes with her gut feeling, Rise is a people person who knows how people would think or feel, Teddie supports information about the other world while Kanji is the one who keeps the group focused and on track. The dynamic works beautifully, which was one of my biggest complaints about Persona 3 in which the group was a bunch of strangers who didn't necessarily even like each other and were forced to spend time together due the circumstances yet even then forced the players through fan service and anime moments which felt super out of place.

I've seen a lot of people complain about the story and that it's very basic and standard when compared to Persona 3's tower of doom. While I'll try to keep the references to that game to a minimum, I feel that this is something that needs to be addressed because it's more or less the core of what I'm trying to write. While I love the premise of Persona 3, it's execution falls flat on its face several times as it's torn between trying to be character-driven yet ignoring the male cast, dark yet including fan service moments, and so on. Persona 4 understands what it is and executes it much better; BECAUSE the characters have chemistry, it makes sense for them to go to the beach together, as opposed to Persona 3 where it's an attempt to force the characters to seem likeable.

I suppose you could also view this like One Punch Man. While I've never been a fan of anime in general (which I'll come back to later), it's a hilarious series that understands exactly what it is and its execution is bloody fantastic. The most important aspect of why One Punch Man works is NOT because of its self-explanatory title and story, but because HOW it's told. The premise can only take you so far, and it's how you choose to present it that will stick with the consumer.

Back to the topic at hand. Now, I realize that I might be in the minority in this, but I believe the pacing of this game is for the most part great. Yes, the intro is a bit too long, and it derails a bit towards the end after Naoto joins since they've got so many pieces of the puzzle to put together at once to reach a satisfying conclusion, but for the most part it's immensely gratifying slowly gathering the clues and realizing how the other world works and how the killer operates; the characters become more confident in their assertions and theories as the game goes on, giving the player a sense of progression and development.

Now, we can't talk about a murder mystery without talking about the killer, so here goes: Adachi is brilliant. One of the best things Golden did was to implement a social link with him which showed that there was a lot more to him than being a goofy detective, from the more important parts of his high school years which explains why he feels a bit of jealousy towards Yu to minor things like that he's always been good with his hands; such details usually help flesh out a character when done correctly, even if they are just random tidbits. Of course, the most important part would be that it shows genuine concern for the Dojima family which shows another layer of depth to his character that wasn't as apparent before. I do have my problems with him though; he gets far too villain-y once the reveal has been made, and the nihilistic trait feels forced, although it could be argued that it was because he was influenced by Amano-Sagiri. Still, him just being a twisted psycho looking to have fun yet realizing during the confrontation that he's been wrong all along is powerful enough on its own without the threat of world annihilation, and the game as a whole would've been stronger without it.

I mentioned before that the story derailed a bit towards the ending, and that's really where the majority of my complaints come from. Once Naoto joins - the weakest link in the party - she needs to make up for having had the least amount of screen time due to being introduced so late, so she completely takes over the investigation, ruining a lot of the dynamic of the group since she takes over Yosuke's job of being logical and analytical. She's also got access to far too much power in the police which arguably is necessary to wrap up the story, but it speeds up everything up far too much.

This is not to say the end is bad or without particularly good moments - Dojima and Nanako being in the hospital while they're still lost in the case is immensely powerful, and once Nanako temporarily dies (something a lot of people hate on, but I'm ambivalent towards), the group is pushed to the edge and genuinely consider murder - what's great is that you CAN go through with it and get a bad ending since you didn't do what one of the major themes of the game was - to find the truth and not accept shortcuts.

Still, the preachy dialogue before Adachi, the threat of world annihilation, Izanami...all that feels forced and unnecessary - Izanami could've worked great if she just wanted to continue doing the same somewhere else, and it was up to you to stop that from happening. That would've made it far more personal and on a lower level than "welp, I guess I've got no choice but to destroy the world". Still, the fact that she never comes across as evil is a major plus

While we're on the subject of negativity, I suppose I should mention the obvious: the anime bullshit is atrocious. It ranges from alright (spending a night at Yukiko's inn? Sure, that makes sense), to absolutely horrible and cringe-inducing (the concert in Golden). The game does a good job of subverting a lot of common tropes and deals with heavy personal themes in a generally convincing and serious manner, so the fact that there are so many anime tropes elsewhere blows my mind. In a game that does the weird, unexpected and unnatural so perfectly, it's strange that they add elements that it feels like you've seen a million times before.

Of course, I must also mention the romance. Thankfully, you're not forced to have multiple girlfriends like in Persona 3 (for those of you not familiar with the series, yes, yes that was a real thing), but it's still written so poorly in comparison to the rest of the game. Rise confessing her feelings while hugging you? Better stand still and do and say absolutely nothing.

I've ranted on about the negatives now, but those are the only ones that stand out other than the player worship which might be a topic for another time. Really, it's a wonder that a game this massive, with this much story and characters, only have a few bad things that stick out. I could go on endlessly about the quality of the voice acting, the fantastic social links (for those who wonder, my favorite is Naoki's) and the writing in general, but this thread is long enough already.

What are your opinions on the game?

Also, what do you mean Marie? I've never heard that name and neither have you.

[Water Mage]

One of the things I like about the game, is that it has a theme and it sticks to it, and you can see it everywhere in the game.

Everything in the game has a bit of "be true to yourself".

And even thought you may disliked the "anime parts" as you call them, I still think they are important, even if these scenes doesn't matter to the main story.

Scenes like the camping trip and the school trip are important because it shows the characters doing things other than fighting monsters and chasing a killers, and shows that their adventure isn't the only thing in their lives.

It shows that they are people with their own opinions and interests. Those scense makes more them more human amd they truly feel like "people". It makes you care about them, even if they make stupid mistakes.

One of my favorite scenes is the waterlemon one at the end of summer.

It's so simple and peaceful, it doesn't add anything to the main story, but it made the characters so human, it truly made me care for the characters.

There's more I want to talk, but I am on a phone.

And this is nitpicky of me, but forgot to say that Yukiko helps the investigation with her "outside-of-the-box" thinking and her thought-provoking questions.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Water Mage

[Radiant head]

I felt the other way around about the anime stuff. The concert was just fun fluff that you can either indulge in or just skip. Didn't really affect my impression of the game at all (especially since I played vanilla first). On the other hand, scenes like the hot springs and the camping trip/swim suits stuff were pretty insufferable...though thank god Golden lets me fast forward there.

Otherwise, I agree. People keep saying Persona 3 is the better game, and I guess on some level I can understand preferring the game's style, since 3 and 4 deliberately go in opposite directions in aesthetics, but otherwise it's pretty clear that Persona 4 is the result of the devs learning their lessons from the previous game. The narrative is way more coherent and satisfying, the characters are more connectable, the tone actually jives with the fluff/anime scenes, the social links don't make me want to blow my brains out. Well except for Aeon, and hate how that one is required to unlock the winter days.

The improvement between the two games makes me really excited for P5, assuming they keep that trajectory going.

[Thane]

One of the things I like about the game, is that it has a theme and it sticks to it, and you can see it everywhere in the game.

Everything in the game has a bit of "be true to yourself".

And even thought you may disliked the "anime parts" as you call them, I still think they are important, even if these scenes doesn't matter to the main story.

Scenes like the camping trip and the school trip are important because it shows the characters doing things other than fighting monsters and chasing a killers, and shows that their adventure isn't the only thing in their lives.

It shows that they are people with their own opinions and interests. Those scense makes more them more human amd they truly feel like "people". It makes you care about them, even if they make stupid mistakes.

One of my favorite scenes is the waterlemon one at the end of summer.

It's so simple and peaceful, it doesn't add anything to the main story, but it made the characters so human, it truly made me care for the characters.

There's more I want to talk, but I am on a phone.

And this is nitpicky of me, but forgot to say that Yukiko helps the investigation with her "outside-of-the-box" thinking and her thought-provoking questions.

Oh, definitely, but I don't consider that "anime bullshit" - people hanging out and enjoying summer or going on school trips is one thing, but a concert popping up out of nowhere and them having to learn how to play instruments in like, a few days, is just so...cheesy. But it's definitely important to show that they are, in fact, people, something Persona 3 forgot with characters like Akihiko.

It's true that Yukiko does that; I just hadn't played the game in a while so I forgot what she brought to the table. This is another reason as to why I'm not a fan of Naoto, since she doesn't give the characters anything new except for access to the police, which feels a lot more convenient than it should.

I felt the other way around about the anime stuff. The concert was just fun fluff that you can either indulge in or just skip. Didn't really affect my impression of the game at all (especially since I played vanilla first). On the other hand, scenes like the hot springs and the camping trip/swim suits stuff were pretty insufferable...though thank god Golden lets me fast forward there.

Otherwise, I agree. People keep saying Persona 3 is the better game, and I guess on some level I can understand preferring the game's style, since 3 and 4 deliberately go in opposite directions in aesthetics, but otherwise it's pretty clear that Persona 4 is the result of the devs learning their lessons from the previous game. The narrative is way more coherent and satisfying, the characters are more connectable, the tone actually jives with the fluff/anime scenes, the social links don't make me want to blow my brains out. Well except for Aeon, and hate how that one is required to unlock the winter days.

The improvement between the two games makes me really excited for P5, assuming they keep that trajectory going.

The thing is that the concert just pops out of nowhere and it feels far too unbelievable and cheesily executed; at least there's genuine humor in the school festival and to a lesser extent the school trip. I've never understood Atlus' obsession with having girls be unable to cook and thinking it's absolutely hilarious, but I'm not a big fan of it. However, I DO love Yuri Lowenthal's reaction.

Indeed. I think Persona 4 is as good as it is in part because of the errors made in Persona 3, and Atlus' writers learned from their mistakes.

I wonder if Persona 5 is going to be as good. To be honest, I'm sick and tired of teenagers, I don't like the cat mascot since it looks so bland (everything in Japan has a mascot, I swear I've seen similar designs several times) and the theme of the game sounds a tad too "in your face, society", which is going to attract a lot of annoying people. Those are just worries though, and considering that Atlus has surprised me before, I'm sure they can do it again.

Aeon social link? I don't know what you're talking about. Crazy talk, that's what that is.

[Radiant head]

Again, both are really inconsequential fluff moments that don't really affect my opinion of the game. Though one of them has the guys acting creepy beyond belief and forcing the main character to go along with it, which puts a bad taste in my mouth. And the other was just kind of silly but whatever.

[Rxmonste]

I suppose you could also view this like One Punch Man. While I've never been a fan of anime in general (which I'll come back to later), it's a hilarious series that understands exactly what it is and its execution is bloody fantastic. The most important aspect of why One Punch Man works is NOT because of its self-explanatory title and story, but because HOW it's told. The premise can only take you so far, and it's how you choose to present it that will stick with the consumer.

Before I give you my opinion I must say this is a good analogy, and I LOVE One Punch Man, such a fantastic anime unlike any other.

Now about Persona 4's story, I wanted to respond to your Persona 3 topic but I forgot to, basically I agree with both you and Radiant Head. I think Persona 4 has a much better pace than Persona 3, and the characters were more likable for me. I mean I like Persona 3's characters and I even mentioned that in my review, but none of them really got stuck in my head save for Akihiko and Aigis.

I think Persona 4 has absolutely incredible atmosphere and similarly to what Water Mage and Radiant head stated, I think the "Anime BS" actually added to the experience too, look I don't like it as much as you, and I'm not a fan of typical anime tropes unless they're well done, but I think the game would've been worse without those moments. Extra Credits talks about Differences in Kind in this video and I think it's great for analysts and/or game designers to understand why developers sometimes put moments in a game that seem pointless at times.

One thing I particularly like about the game is how when you play through it a second time and analyse it you can notice that the game had clues about Adachi if you look carefully. It's a sign that the writers really put some thought into this, and it didn't feel forced like I was expecting it to be.

Overall I mostly agree with you, I like Persona 3 a lot but I think 4 is definitely the superior game, it has its faults which I'm hoping Persona 5 fixes but otherwise it stands as a masterpiece for me.

[RedRob]

Could you expand on your disdain for Marie? Like the reasons behind it? (Though it's probably because you think she was forced into the narrative.)

The anime tropes fit better thanks to the lighter tone of the game. Though compared to P3, it utilizes some more worse tropes, like the double standard abuse going on with Youske and Chie,(not to mention the hotsprings incident), the whole "I'm not gay" shtick with Kanji.

Plus there were a few asspulls, Nanako reviving for no reason, Teddie somehow defeating Shadow Rise, Izanami was poorly foreshadowed in the original version.

Also, this game might have mangled it's theme a bit.

Passage from TvTropes.

• Debate and Switch: Despite the Central Theme about "reaching out for the truth" and never ignoring an Awful Truth, no matter how difficult or painful, everything about Inaba that might classify as "a complaint against society" remains unquestioned and unchallenged. Japanese society, overall, tends to favor the group over the individual. For example, Yukiko dislikes being forced to inherit her family's inn: turns out, what she really was worried about was having to do it all alone. The issue of not being able to choose her own job is thus not really addressed at all. Rise dislikes being seen as a media lust object but it turns out she secretly enjoys being in the spotlight. Her objectification is written off as something she can just deal with by accepting the constructed lust object as "herself". Yumi has a complaint about her father selfishly abandoning his wife and child. Her father ends up dying in the hospital, so Yumi decides to live up to her name and "bear fruit" by dropping out of the drama club; the narrative avoids assessing her father's behavior at all by casting Yumi's misgivings as selfish. And lastly, Adachi has a lot of complaints about how impossible it is to be rewarded for your hard work in the current job system if you aren't talented. Whether or not these complaints are accurate is never really addressed, because Adachi is a psychotic serial killer who just uses this as justification to act For the Evulz. Thus, his complaints about society, even if they're valid, come out of a psychotic man-child's mouth.

I'm honestly beginning to wonder how well written the series actually is now.

Also, I tried watching OPMan, stopped after episode 6, as I just found it boring. Not sure why, but I constantly found myself wanting the episodes to move on to the next one, not in a I can't wait way, but in a I want to be done way.

[Thane]

Before I give you my opinion I must say this is a good analogy, and I LOVE One Punch Man, such a fantastic anime unlike any other.

Now about Persona 4's story, I wanted to respond to your Persona 3 topic but I forgot to, basically I agree with both you and Radiant Head. I think Persona 4 has a much better pace than Persona 3, and the characters were more likable for me. I mean I like Persona 3's characters and I even mentioned that in my review, but none of them really got stuck in my head save for Akihiko and Aigis.

I think Persona 4 has absolutely incredible atmosphere and similarly to what Water Mage and Radiant head stated, I think the "Anime BS" actually added to the experience too, look I don't like it as much as you, and I'm not a fan of typical anime tropes unless they're well done, but I think the game would've been worse without those moments. Extra Credits talks about Differences in Kind in this video and I think it's great for analysts and/or game designers to understand why developers sometimes put moments in a game that seem pointless at times.

One thing I particularly like about the game is how when you play through it a second time and analyse it you can notice that the game had clues about Adachi if you look carefully. It's a sign that the writers really put some thought into this, and it didn't feel forced like I was expecting it to be.

Overall I mostly agree with you, I like Persona 3 a lot but I think 4 is definitely the superior game, it has its faults which I'm hoping Persona 5 fixes but otherwise it stands as a masterpiece for me.

Aren't Extra Credits the guys who picked a fight with Totalbiscuit as soon as he said he'd be unable to respond to tweets for a few days due to chemotherapy? I'd rather not watch their videos, but that's neither here nor there.

As for the anime moments, like I said earlier, I think they could've been less filled with clichés; everyone gathering to eat a watermelon is fine, and it makes sense that they all go to Yukiko's inn since that's a huge part of her character, but beauty contests and especially that concert pop out of nowhere and don't really fit.

And it's true what you say about special touches. I believe my favorite is that you can see Namatame driving towards Rise's house when the gang and Adachi are trying to capture the stalker.

Could you expand on your disdain for Marie? Like the reasons behind it? (Though it's probably because you think she was forced into the narrative.)

The anime tropes fit better thanks to the lighter tone of the game. Though compared to P3, it utilizes some more worse tropes, like the double standard abuse going on with Youske and Chie,(not to mention the hotsprings incident), the whole "I'm not gay" shtick with Kanji.

Plus there were a few asspulls, Nanako reviving for no reason, Teddie somehow defeating Shadow Rise, Izanami was poorly foreshadowed in the original version.

Also, this game might have mangled it's theme a bit.

Passage from TvTropes.

• Debate and Switch: Despite the Central Theme about "reaching out for the truth" and never ignoring an Awful Truth, no matter how difficult or painful, everything about Inaba that might classify as "a complaint against society" remains unquestioned and unchallenged. Japanese society, overall, tends to favor the group over the individual. For example, Yukiko dislikes being forced to inherit her family's inn: turns out, what she really was worried about was having to do it all alone. The issue of not being able to choose her own job is thus not really addressed at all. Rise dislikes being seen as a media lust object but it turns out she secretly enjoys being in the spotlight. Her objectification is written off as something she can just deal with by accepting the constructed lust object as "herself". Yumi has a complaint about her father selfishly abandoning his wife and child. Her father ends up dying in the hospital, so Yumi decides to live up to her name and "bear fruit" by dropping out of the drama club; the narrative avoids assessing her father's behavior at all by casting Yumi's misgivings as selfish. And lastly, Adachi has a lot of complaints about how impossible it is to be rewarded for your hard work in the current job system if you aren't talented. Whether or not these complaints are accurate is never really addressed, because Adachi is a psychotic serial killer who just uses this as justification to act For the Evulz. Thus, his complaints about society, even if they're valid, come out of a psychotic man-child's mouth.

I'm honestly beginning to wonder how well written the series actually is now.

Also, I tried watching OPMan, stopped after episode 6, as I just found it boring. Not sure why, but I constantly found myself wanting the episodes to move on to the next one, not in a I can't wait way, but in a I want to be done way.

You seem to focus only on the negative and ignore the good things I've actually written, not to mention I did acknowledge the weaker parts and specifically mentioned Izanami and Nanako. No game's story will ever be perfect, and it's ludicrous to assert otherwise. Even some other fantastic story heavy games like Ghost Trick, Ace Attorney and Zero Escape have plenty of issues that one could spend a long time complaining about and discussing their impact on the games as a whole. For instance, I've never gotten over the pendulum in case 3-5 in Trials and Tribulations, yet it's still considered by many to be the best case in the series.

For a more complicated example, my favorite character in any video game is Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, yet that game is simply not finished.

As for Chie and Yosuke, while I've never found it funny when she beats him, the game makes sure to show that it's done in a lighthearted way and that they're still friends. If that's your complaint, then I've got far bigger problems with Junpei and Yukari, since the latter seems to absolutely loathe the former.

Regardless, if you want to know my opinions of Marie, here goes: I suppose it all comes down to the fact that she's not a very humble character. That's about the essence of it. Persona 4 goes to great lengths to show characters being ordinary human beings with various problems in life just like any other, but Marie is shoehorned in in an updated version of the game, spending time in the Velevet Room, her social link events are at least twice as long as anyone else's and includes everyone from the main gang.

The thing is, there's nothing new to her character yet the game tries to convince us otherwise. We're forced to read horrible poems written by her and we're supposed to care about why she lost her memories even though we've been given no reason to; it's the oldest cliché in the book, and solving it would just mean spending an unnecessarily long time dealing with her social link that interrupts the flow of the game.

And then we come back to the humility; she's an aspect of Izanami that was created to contain the mist. Why? How many parts of herself can Izanami create, and why would she when she considers them inferior? Why is this yet another smoking hot teenager who wants to bang Yu? Do we really need someone with godlike powers on our side? Marie is a walking cliché the player is supposed to care about yet are never given a reason why, and the game shoves her down your throat - couple that with the fact that she sticks out like a sore thumb when compared to every other social link and you have a character that should never have existed.

[Water Mage]

Also, this game might have mangled it's theme a bit.

Passage from TvTropes.

• Debate and Switch: Despite the Central Theme about "reaching out for the truth" and never ignoring an Awful Truth, no matter how difficult or painful, everything about Inaba that might classify as "a complaint against society" remains unquestioned and unchallenged. Japanese society, overall, tends to favor the group over the individual. For example, Yukiko dislikes being forced to inherit her family's inn: turns out, what she really was worried about was having to do it all alone. The issue of not being able to choose her own job is thus not really addressed at all. Rise dislikes being seen as a media lust object but it turns out she secretly enjoys being in the spotlight. Her objectification is written off as something she can just deal with by accepting the constructed lust object as "herself". Yumi has a complaint about her father selfishly abandoning his wife and child. Her father ends up dying in the hospital, so Yumi decides to live up to her name and "bear fruit" by dropping out of the drama club; the narrative avoids assessing her father's behavior at all by casting Yumi's misgivings as selfish. And lastly, Adachi has a lot of complaints about how impossible it is to be rewarded for your hard work in the current job system if you aren't talented. Whether or not these complaints are accurate is never really addressed, because Adachi is a psychotic serial killer who just uses this as justification to act For the Evulz. Thus, his complaints about society, even if they're valid, come out of a psychotic man-child's mouth.

I'm honestly beginning to wonder how well written the series actually is now.

It's not quite like that.

It's just that you have to look deeper into things.

For example, Yukiko, despite what it seems at first, the real issue is not the fact that she's being forced to inherit the inn, it was the fact she honestly enjoyed working at the inn, but she didn't know if she enjoyed working there because she was going to inherit it someday or because she genuinely liked worked there. That's what scared her.

It's also worth noting that Golden reveals that her parents were never going to force to inherit the inn, and they never said anything because they wanted to give her freedom of choice.

In the end, most of her problems were all in her head. Which is completely okay. After all, people have the habit of making their problems bigger than they actually are. If anything, this helps Yukiko seem more human.

The same thing also aplies to Rise, Yumi, Adachi and others.

I actually want to talk about Rise, but I'm on a phone, so I'll write more later.

[RedRob]

Aren't Extra Credits the guys who picked a fight with Totalbiscuit as soon as he said he'd be unable to respond to tweets for a few days due to chemotherapy? I'd rather not watch their videos, but that's neither here nor there.

As for the anime moments, like I said earlier, I think they could've been less filled with clichés; everyone gathering to eat a watermelon is fine, and it makes sense that they all go to Yukiko's inn since that's a huge part of her character, but beauty contests and especially that concert pop out of nowhere and don't really fit.

And it's true what you say about special touches. I believe my favorite is that you can see Namatame driving towards Rise's house when the gang and Adachi are trying to capture the stalker.

You seem to focus only on the negative and ignore the good things I've actually written, not to mention I did acknowledge the weaker parts and specifically mentioned Izanami and Nanako. No game's story will ever be perfect, and it's ludicrous to assert otherwise. Even some other fantastic story heavy games like Ghost Trick, Ace Attorney and Zero Escape have plenty of issues that one could spend a long time complaining about and discussing their impact on the games as a whole. For instance, I've never gotten over the pendulum in case 3-5 in Trials and Tribulations, yet it's still considered by many to be the best case in the series.

For a more complicated example, my favorite character in any video game is Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, yet that game is simply not finished.

As for Chie and Yosuke, while I've never found it funny when she beats him, the game makes sure to show that it's done in a lighthearted way and that they're still friends. If that's your complaint, then I've got far bigger problems with Junpei and Yukari, since the latter seems to absolutely loathe the former.

Regardless, if you want to know my opinions of Marie, here goes: I suppose it all comes down to the fact that she's not a very humble character. That's about the essence of it. Persona 4 goes to great lengths to show characters being ordinary human beings with various problems in life just like any other, but Marie is shoehorned in in an updated version of the game, spending time in the Velevet Room, her social link events are at least twice as long as anyone else's and includes everyone from the main gang.

The thing is, there's nothing new to her character yet the game tries to convince us otherwise. We're forced to read horrible poems written by her and we're supposed to care about why she lost her memories even though we've been given no reason to; it's the oldest cliché in the book, and solving it would just mean spending an unnecessarily long time dealing with her social link that interrupts the flow of the game.

And then we come back to the humility; she's an aspect of Izanami that was created to contain the mist. Why? How many parts of herself can Izanami create, and why would she when she considers them inferior? Why is this yet another smoking hot teenager who wants to bang Yu? Do we really need someone with godlike powers on our side? Marie is a walking cliché the player is supposed to care about yet are never given a reason why, and the game shoves her down your throat - couple that with the fact that she sticks out like a sore thumb when compared to every other social link and you have a character that should never have existed.

Well that's due to the fact that I just find it more interesting to debate the weaker parts of the story than the stronger parts, and I find it interesting to hear other people's views on them, plus those parts are the one people will debate the most over, and therefore bring out a bunch of different view points, which I enjoy learning about. Like your view on Marie. It was interesting how you analyze her and how she fit into the narrative, and after reading it, I agreed with your opinion. As for the positive stuff, I ignored that mainly because I agreed with you, and found that saying that would add little to the discussion, and because I still have to work on conversing with others, since as kid I kind of avoided people since I had a mild hearing loss, so I had more difficulty than other kids understanding people, which lead me to develop a habit of keeping to myself, so my communication skills are a bit rusty. I didn't even realize I had a habit of focusing on the negative until you pointed it out. Plus the Persona series was heavily praised for it's writing so I guess the bad parts just stuck out more due to the hype surrounding the series.

I am also thinking of being a writer when I grow up, so I probably focus on the negative to learn what not to do when writing a story, though I should probably also focus on what to do when writing a story.

Now back to actually discussing the game. I mentioned Nanako and Izanami because I was under the impression that you had other problems with them than the ones I listed, and because I wanted to probe your brain on the game a bit more. For Nanako I thought you were just referring to the fact she died, not that you were conflicted on the whole her dying, than reviving, and I never got the impression that you also thought Izanami was poorly foreshadowed, but that you thought that they made her part in the story overly dramatic.

For Yosuke and Chie, I'm not really fond of the double standard, since it perpetuates it's okay to beat someone up over an accident or something minor as long as you're a girl, plus it's not particularly clever writing and usually has a guy sustain heavy injuries for laughs. If anything Yukari's approach to Junpei is more mature, as she isn't constantly assaulting him, and only voices her dislike for him. It says a lot about Chie, when a person with far more trauma and stress never resorted to physical violence, yet Chie, who's only real problem is that she doesn't adhere to society's view of a woman, resorts to violence quite frequently.

And to Water mage, I only brought that up since I thought it would bring up a interesting topic to discuss. But, continue to discuss it please. I'm interested in your opinion.

[Water Mage]

And to Water mage, I only brought that up since I thought it would bring up a interesting topic to discuss. But, continue to discuss it please. I'm interested in your opinion.

Okay then,

about Rise,

Rise, I feel, is the character that most embodies the game's theme.

She's a person who's at first don't really knows what she wants.

But as time passes, you can see that she's taking the experiences from the game to form her personality.

Honestly, Rise, alongside Yukiko and Kanji, is one of the better character of the game, and one the few characters, alongside Yukiko, whose personality are kept intact in the spin-offs. Unlike the unfortunate ones, like Akihiko, Chie, Kanji and Teddie.

[RedRob]

Don't speak of ArenaAkihiko. Ugh, that is the pinnacle of flanderization right there. Didn't help it was based off of one or two lines from P3.

Though I wonder if the suscess of P4 got to Atlus and resulted in how light in tone the spinoffs were. They were certainly more jokey. Though dancing all night had a pretty serious story, and Q, well you should look that game up yourself if you don't know the story and don't mind being spoiled. So yeah, Atlus seems to favor making bipolar games.

[Water Mage]

Don't speak of ArenaAkihiko. Ugh, that is the pinnacle of flanderization right there. Didn't help it was based off of one or two lines from P3.

Though I wonder if the suscess of P4 got to Atlus and resulted in how light in tone the spinoffs were. They were certainly more jokey. Though dancing all night had a pretty serious story, and Q, well you should look that game up yourself if you don't know the story and don't mind being spoiled. So yeah, Atlus seems to favor making bipolar games.

I played all of them, and yeah, Dancing All Night's story actually suprised me, it got dark pretty fast and I though it was actually pretty interesting.

Q's story also interesting.

Rei was an interesting take on the whole sickly child trope.

She shows how hard it is to deal with the fact that you have a terminal illness, and it's not just something that can accept.

It's something much more complicated, and you can't just be strong.

You're gonna die soon, and that SUCKS.

There's no way to describe the feeling of having a terminal disease.

Despair doesn't even begin to cover it.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Water Mage

[Thane]

Well that's due to the fact that I just find it more interesting to debate the weaker parts of the story than the stronger parts, and I find it interesting to hear other people's views on them, plus those parts are the one people will debate the most over, and therefore bring out a bunch of different view points, which I enjoy learning about. Like your view on Marie. It was interesting how you analyze her and how she fit into the narrative, and after reading it, I agreed with your opinion. As for the positive stuff, I ignored that mainly because I agreed with you, and found that saying that would add little to the discussion, and because I still have to work on conversing with others, since as kid I kind of avoided people since I had a mild hearing loss, so I had more difficulty than other kids understanding people, which lead me to develop a habit of keeping to myself, so my communication skills are a bit rusty. I didn't even realize I had a habit of focusing on the negative until you pointed it out. Plus the Persona series was heavily praised for it's writing so I guess the bad parts just stuck out more due to the hype surrounding the series.

I am also thinking of being a writer when I grow up, so I probably focus on the negative to learn what not to do when writing a story, though I should probably also focus on what to do when writing a story.

Now back to actually discussing the game. I mentioned Nanako and Izanami because I was under the impression that you had other problems with them than the ones I listed, and because I wanted to probe your brain on the game a bit more. For Nanako I thought you were just referring to the fact she died, not that you were conflicted on the whole her dying, than reviving, and I never got the impression that you also thought Izanami was poorly foreshadowed, but that you thought that they made her part in the story overly dramatic.

For Yosuke and Chie, I'm not really fond of the double standard, since it perpetuates it's okay to beat someone up over an accident or something minor as long as you're a girl, plus it's not particularly clever writing and usually has a guy sustain heavy injuries for laughs. If anything Yukari's approach to Junpei is more mature, as she isn't constantly assaulting him, and only voices her dislike for him. It says a lot about Chie, when a person with far more trauma and stress never resorted to physical violence, yet Chie, who's only real problem is that she doesn't adhere to society's view of a woman, resorts to violence quite frequently.

And to Water mage, I only brought that up since I thought it would bring up a interesting topic to discuss. But, continue to discuss it please. I'm interested in your opinion.

What I mentioned about Izanami and Nanako are part of the problem. I felt they had written themselves into a corner with the Dojima situation and - while very effective - people would get disappointed no matter what happened. While it was a bit of a bait and switch though, I don't really feel one way or the other about Nanako dying or coming back. The hospital scenes are generally great, but the whole dying part doesn't stick out, but rather the situation as a whole.

Izanami I think is decently foreshadowed in Golden so no, that's not my problem. The issue is that, like I said, making this be about saving the world removes the personal aspect of the story; had she just wanted to leave unpunished with the risk of making similar situations where a few people could end up dying, there'd still be a threat and a motivation to defeat her, and it'd be a lot more personal and related to the story proper.

It's good that you focus on the negative in order to learn what to avoid. I also enjoy discussing the more negative aspects of something, like all of Fire Emblem Fates' story and the horrible direction it took, but if you want to become a writer you'll need a lot more than that, although I'm sure you're already aware. Aside from a lot of practice to get a good flow in your story, your own ideas and thick skin to handle the criticism, you need something that really captures the readers interest, and that's why it can be helpful to discuss the positive things as well. Your readers won't care about what specific problems you're avoiding if you can't make them invested, the story is mediocre or if you simply end up adding one problem while trying to sidestep another.

[Irysa]

The only good thing about P4's story is the entirely unintentional hilarity of how its superficial and exaggerated "introspective" segments are taken to be insightful the majority of its fanbase. No wonder everyone's in denial about themselves, no wonder they don't change much at all, as such a reaction speaks volumes about their own self-reflective ability and general lack of awareness, which is an ailment every single party member in that game suffers from anyway! That in turn seems to explain why people get so obcessively attached to them/identify with them.

Maybe the entire thing is actually Super Meta and is secretly taking the piss out of you all rather than endorsing that behaviour necessarily, but I find that exceedingly hard to believe.

[Water Mage]

The only good thing about P4's story is the entirely unintentional hilarity of how its superficial and exaggerated "introspective" segments are taken to be insightful the majority of its fanbase. No wonder everyone's in denial about themselves, no wonder they don't change much at all, as such a reaction speaks volumes about their own self-reflective ability and general lack of awareness, which is an ailment every single party member in that game suffers from anyway! That in turn seems to explain why people get so obcessively attached to them/identify with them.

Maybe the entire thing is actually Super Meta and is secretly taking the piss out of you all rather than endorsing that behaviour necessarily, but I find that exceedingly hard to believe.

Could you explain how superficial the "introspective" segments are?

While there many games that tries to give deep life lessons but end up superficial and silly, Persona 4 is one the few games that managed to avoid this, it's "introspective" moments are usually well written and relatable, if a little cheesy, but they are still something people can relate.

And what do you mean by saying the characters lack self-reflection and awareness?

And Thane, I meant to ask, did you play Persona Q and Dancing All Night?

If you did, what were your opinions on their stories and characters?

Edited February 8, 2016 by Water Mage

[RedRob]

I played all of them, and yeah, Dancing All Night's story actually suprised me, it got dark pretty fast and I though it was actually pretty interesting.

Q's story also interesting.

Rei was an interesting take on the whole sickly child trope.

She shows how hard it is to deal with the fact that you have a terminal illness, and it's not just something that can accept.

It's something much more complicated, and you can't just be strong.

You're gonna die soon, and that SUCKS.

There's no way to describe the feeling of having a terminal disease.

Despair doesn't even begin to cover it.

Dancing All Night's story was quite dark, not to mention a direct contrast with the SMTxFE game in terms of theme. Which is kind of amusing and supports my theory of Atlus liking to make bipolar games. I mean everything else in Q that wasn't related Rei was pretty silly and fanservice. Yet the whole story happened because a cancer patient died. That's some dark stuff right there.

What I mentioned about Izanami and Nanako are part of the problem. I felt they had written themselves into a corner with the Dojima situation and - while very effective - people would get disappointed no matter what happened. While it was a bit of a bait and switch though, I don't really feel one way or the other about Nanako dying or coming back. The hospital scenes are generally great, but the whole dying part doesn't stick out, but rather the situation as a whole.

Izanami I think is decently foreshadowed in Golden so no, that's not my problem. The issue is that, like I said, making this be about saving the world removes the personal aspect of the story; had she just wanted to leave unpunished with the risk of making similar situations where a few people could end up dying, there'd still be a threat and a motivation to defeat her, and it'd be a lot more personal and related to the story proper.

It's good that you focus on the negative in order to learn what to avoid. I also enjoy discussing the more negative aspects of something, like all of Fire Emblem Fates' story and the horrible direction it took, but if you want to become a writer you'll need a lot more than that, although I'm sure you're already aware. Aside from a lot of practice to get a good flow in your story, your own ideas and thick skin to handle the criticism, you need something that really captures the readers interest, and that's why it can be helpful to discuss the positive things as well. Your readers won't care about what specific problems you're avoiding if you can't make them invested, the story is mediocre or if you simply end up adding one problem while trying to sidestep another.

Unfortunately for you, most of the foreshadowing for Izanami from Golden came from Marie the tsundere - and you have no idea who I'm talking about do you? *wink* Man, it must have been annoying for you to put up with her just to get those hints.

But yeah, Izanami was a curveball in the original, and I didn't really have a problem with how grandscale it got in the end. It's what one expects from a SMT game even if it's a spin-off series. I do see what you mean, but your solution doesn't fix much. Unless her motivation changed, her leaving somewhere else would still result in the end of the world, as she would continue her experiment, so that's the first to be fixed if you desired something up to your standards.

Also. I think I will finally post some ideas I had for Fate fanfiction on the appropriate thread, so I would appreciate your critique.

[Thane]

Dancing All Night's story was quite dark, not to mention a direct contrast with the SMTxFE game in terms of theme. Which is kind of amusing and supports my theory of Atlus liking to make bipolar games. I mean everything else in Q that wasn't related Rei was pretty silly and fanservice. Yet the whole story happened because a cancer patient died. That's some dark stuff right there.

Unfortunately for you, most of the foreshadowing for Izanami from Golden came from Marie the tsundere - and you have no idea who I'm talking about do you? *wink* Man, it must have been annoying for you to put up with her just to get those hints.

But yeah, Izanami was a curveball in the original, and I didn't really have a problem with how grandscale it got in the end. It's what one expects from a SMT game even if it's a spin-off series. I do see what you mean, but your solution doesn't fix much. Unless her motivation changed, her leaving somewhere else would still result in the end of the world, as she would continue her experiment, so that's the first to be fixed if you desired something up to your standards.

Also. I think I will finally post some ideas I had for Fate fanfiction on the appropriate thread, so I would appreciate your critique.

You seem to think that my little idea would mean that Izanami would destroy the world somewhere else, which is not the case. Of course her motivations should change - if she should even be in the game at all - that's the entire point; not wanting to destroy the world because it simply doesn't fit in the story of Persona 4, and to make matters worse, Persona 3 did the same thing. It's like Intelligent Systems and their evil dragon fetish. While I understand it's only natural coming to expect certain things of series, authors, directors or what have you, but accepting the same motives, similar villains and motifs is just strange to me.

Sure thing. Send what you write/your ideas to me and I'll have a look.

[Radiant head]

That's interesting, I was pretty set on not bothering with DAN or any of the spinoffs (except Q because I liked EOIV), but now I'm curious about the story mode there. Wish there was a way to get a cheap rental.

[Water Mage]

That's interesting, I was pretty set on not bothering with DAN or any of the spinoffs (except Q because I liked EOIV), but now I'm curious about the story mode there. Wish there was a way to get a cheap rental.

The story is an interesting deconstruction of the whole Idol culture in Japan. It's actually pretty freaky stuff. Edited February 9, 2016 by Water Mage

[Radiant head]

That sounds pretty good. I remember when I was playing P4, as much as Rise's social link does try to touch upon how much control being put on her by corporates, the game does seem to seriously understate how fucked up the idol industry is.

EDIT: Before anyone says it, of course I didn't expect the game to actually into that territory.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Radiant head

[RedRob]

You seem to think that my little idea would mean that Izanami would destroy the world somewhere else, which is not the case. Of course her motivations should change - if she should even be in the game at all - that's the entire point; not wanting to destroy the world because it simply doesn't fit in the story of Persona 4, and to make matters worse, Persona 3 did the same thing. It's like Intelligent Systems and their evil dragon fetish. While I understand it's only natural coming to expect certain things of series, authors, directors or what have you, but accepting the same motives, similar villains and motifs is just strange to me.

Sure thing. Send what you write/your ideas to me and I'll have a look.

Well, originally the only thing you mentioned about changing it was making it less about the end of the world and more about stopping her from doing it again. Nothing about changing her motivation. And if I remember correctly, she was trying to figure out what humans wanted the most, which do to how her experiment turned, was apparently self-deception, which meant turning every one into shadows, effectively ending the world. So, I figured that as long as her motivation didn't change, there was still a good chance of the world ending, since her experiment would still happen elsewhere. And as said before you didn't mentioned changing that, so that's why I got confused.

Also if I remember correctly, in Jungian psychology, which the series is based on, there was something about the collective unconscious, and since the gods in this series are formed from humanity's thoughts, the villains don't seem so shoehorned in to me. Nyx was formed from Nihilism, which is a contrast to the game's them of enjoying what time you have. And for Izanami, she assumed people wanted to live in blissful ignorance, which was a contrast to the game's theme of not-lying to yourself and accepting that you have flaws and fears. So, thematically they fit.

And at the very worst, they're just better foreshadowed versions of Necron from FF9. Which, granted, isn't hard to do. But, if you still disagree, fair enough, Different strokes for different folks. Will say they could have been executed better. Heck, imagine having a Social link with Izanami instead of Marie. Heck imagine if that if for a future persona game, to get the true ending you have to Max SL the villain, form a persona of them, and you have to use that persona to win. Like use it show them a better side of themselves, so they realize their mistakes.

Though, depending on how P5 turns out, I might end up agreeing with you. For now, I'm guessing the final boss will be the player themselves, with you(boss) confronting yourself(player) about how you're a vigilante, and that you're forcing your standards on everyone else. Though I doubt Atlus will actually come up with something that radically different. (Should we form a thread for persona 5 speculations, or does one already exist?)