Legault vs Tino

[Legault]

For some strange reason, people here seem to hate Rolf, although he's a perfectly usable unit. So let's get on with this.

Chapter 9, Mist and Rolf get pushed into your team. Yays for rebelious children. They both come on lvl 1 and they both copies of their teachers. Except Shinon and Rhys are better, but I digress. Since you are probably just getting used to the idea of having hard chapters (I don't really count Ch. P-6 since P-4 are dead easy, 5 is defend and 6 is escape), you'll want some indirect atack to balance your party a little. So let Rolf get a couple of mooch kills and he'll level up once, maybe twice if you're commited to your job. Since he isn't afected by WT, you can pretty much let him kill anything. Then get him some BEXP and you'll get him to lvl 4-5/0 by the start of next chapter. Let's place a worst case scenario and give him a lvl 3. Let's see his likely stats.

Rolf

HP 19 Str 5 Skl 8 Spd 7 Lck 4 Def 6 Res 2

Not bad. If you consider that Ike had similar stats than him when he was 3/0, then Rolf isn't that bad. Now, let's see Mordecai. Since the last chapter he was there as an ally unit, he didn't get any exp. I am unsure whether in this game ally units exp goes to yours as BEXP, but if it does, then shame on him.

Mordecai

HP 41 Str 15 Skl 8 Spd 8 Lck 10 Def 13 Res 4

Now, Mordecai counts as a 2nd tier unit. That means that he'll be hogging all the exp of his kills, while good young Rolf will be getting a lot of exp from his kills, since he's 3/0. Since you get him from lvl 1, you have a great margin for growth. Let's asume that you screw BEXP and just kill everything in this level. Since Mordecai is a laguz, then you'll have to wait for him to transfrom. It's a shame that he's starts with 0 on the gauge, and you don't get demi band until chapter 15. Since he has a fairly decent defense, he can act as a wall when untransformed. Rolf will be getting some mooch kills. So you're stuck with two fairly useless units. Not. Rolf grows, whereas Mordecai doesn't due to a ridiculously low exp gain. Mordecai will be lacking in speed in the future, he can no longer be a wall, since he'll get DA a lot, and this can eventually get him killed (although I got to admit he has durability). Rolf, on the other hand will become faster and will be able to DA enemies, maybe leading t a kill. My point here is that they both start as pretty crappy units, but growth smiles on Rolf and lols at Mordecai. Well, they get out of the castle, yays for devoted knight Kieran and kickass Sephiran. Next chapter you got to avoid the Black Knight to get to the ship. And now you're in the raven chapter. Let's stay here for a while and asume a lvl 6 Rolf.

Rolf

HP 21 Str 7 Skl 10 Spd 8 Lck 6 Def 7 Res 5

Now, until now we've left aside supports and inner supports, mainly because they didn't matter to a certain extent. However, now they do matter. The ship is a fairly small space, and the brothers will probably be next to each other (and don't come and say that they aren't used, Boyd is probably close to promotion and Oscar is a cavalier. Nuff said). That's a 20% crit bonus right there. Where else can you get such close brothers? Then we have the C support with Rhys, since we don't use Mist (Ike is so awsome that he can beat BK without her) and it's a shame that Marcia sucks, because she would make a good support. I already said close quarters, and to avoid crows entering the ship, this is a safe bet. Wait, crows you said? Like, laguz with wings? Man, an archer would sure be useful... wait, who's there? It's Rolf to the rescue! His bows will save us! Yays for bows! Let's asume he's next to both of his brothers (unreasonable, but not that unreasonable), and Rhys is somewhere close. Let's kill a crow.

Raven

HP 28 Str 10 Skl 11 Spd 14 Lck 0 Def 11 Res 8

The raven won't counter. Yays for level differences. Too bad level bonuses aren't avaliable in this game. They would make Rolf rock even harder.

Rolf - C Rhys

Rolf's Bow - Mt 12 Hit 100 Crit 30

Iron Bow - Mt 8 Real Hit 94.39 Crit 25

Now, what would happen if you gave him an Arms Scroll?

Steel Bow - Mt 14 Real Hit 79.84 Crit 25

Longbow - Mt 6 Real Hit 72.99 Crit 25

Here you can see that he can put up some decent damage. You can always give him an Arms Scroll for better results, and at this point, all of your characters are single weapon users and can get up to S easily, and Neph can get up to S on her own, since you'll be using her that much, so the idea of giving the Arms Scroll to Rolf isn't so farfetched. Sides, Longbow in this level=win. Not epic win, not activate-Aether-twice-in-a-row-against-the-Black-Knight, but kind of a yay win. You get my point.

Mordecai won't be able to do much in this level, since by the time he transforms the level is close to being over. And you probably killed all enemies by this point, or you're close. And besides, they're crows dammit, you REALLY want that exp. Since you probably won't be using that exp hog in the shape of a tiger, Rolf will be getting a lot of exp. Probably making 3 levels. Maybe 4 if you have him kill Seeker, but I won't abuse my luck. Then you give him an extra level of BEXP and voila, he's level 10. Halfway through Snipership.

Rolf

HP 23 Str 8 Skl 12 Spd 10 Lck 7 Def 8 Res 4

From this point on, he no longer will be needing mooch kills, he'll just be finishing off enemies, or a contingency plan in case RNG screws you and makes you miss an ending blow with Oscar, etc. Since he's an archer, his def doesn't matter, since you'll keep him protected. He'll probably promote at some point on Day Breaks, in which he'll become a valuable asset to your team. Ironically, next chapter you get Shinon. Let's compare stats. Rolf promoted just now and it was kinda difficult to level up Shinon at the beginning, so he probably hasn't leveled.

Shinon

HP 32 Str 9 Skl 15 Spd 13 Luck 9 Def 9 Res 6

Rolf

HP 32 Str 15 Skl 18 Spd 17 Luck 13 Def 13 Res 8

The student has surpassed the master. Ingnoring the fact that since Shinon comes with a Brave Bow, Rolf would certainly lose in a face off, stat-wise, Rolf is better in every catergory, and is just the same in HP, so you'll probably want to use Rolf instead of Shinon.

Well, both of these units require a lot of effort to rise. The difference is that Mordecai requires a lot of exp to rise, whereas Rolf requires a lot of time... and some BEXP, but hey, you got to spend it somewhere. The outcome for both is that Mordecai sucks at the end, and Rolf doesn't. Sniper +15 crit passive bonus + support bonus? That's an insta-kill. Not to mention the triangle attack. It's as if IS wanted Rolf to critical.

Well, this is pretty much Rolf beats Mordecai.

Your call Tino.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Legault

[Tino]

Supports.

Rolf has a wind affinity for hit and avo. He only benefits from the avo, since hit isn't an issue at all for Rolf (but neither is it for Mordecai, so whatever).

Rhys sucks. Lollable as is lollable.

Shinon sucks a bit less than Rolf, but it still massive fail.

Marcia has Kieran and Tanith already.

Mist has four other possibilities, such as MORDECAI, Jill, Boyd and Titania, who all give superior bonuses (full atk and def, full def + some avo, full atk, full def respectively). That > some hit and some avo.

Tauroneo also is pretty suck.

I don't see any supports happening for Rolf :o

Mordecai has a water affinity for atk and def. As such, water is arguably the second best affinity in the game. Awesome for Mordecai.

Ilyana might have Zihark for an A or B support, and that's it for her, which leaves a spot for Mordecai. Sweet.

Mist obviously wants the full def Mordecai gives, and full atk is also never bad for a low-ish atk offensive unit (upon promotion, of course). Definitely a good support.

And then Stefan, Ulki and Ranulf don't matter, although C Stefan is a possibility if Mordecai only gets B Mist and B Ilyana.

Mordecai's supports are a lot more helpful for the team, as he is benefitting up to three characters, while Rolf is benefitting... nobody. Aight.

One day, there was Rolf. You know, that one 1/0 Archer with his Rolf's Bow. Oh yeah, that "one day" is in reality chapter 9.

How good is Rolf? Very bad.

1/0 Rolf

Rolf's Bow: 13.0 atk, 6.0 as ,, 18.0 hp, 6.0 def, 2.0 res, 16.0 avo

If this would be chapter 1, he'd be fine offensively, and massive suck defensively. However, this isn't chapter 1, this is chapter 9. That means his performance is utter fail here. 15/11 atk can two-round him, and 10 as can double him. He sucks hard.

Then, one chapter later, on a much more beautiful day, Mordecai joined, and he had the following stats.

2 Mordecai

Claw: 31.0 atk, 11.0 as ,, 41.0 hp, 16.0 def, 7.0 res, 32.0 avo

That's pretty hax, you know. I don't think that requires any explanation.

No way is Rolf ever going to gain 18 atk, 5 as, 23 hp, 10 def, 5 res and 16 avo in one chapter. As you might conclude from this, Mordecai >>> Rolf here, even if he would have full supports already. So what do we have? A crap unit vs. a hax unit. I don't see a good reason to use a crap unit to finally conclude that he'll be inferior to Mordecai in the end anyway. Mordecai starts to rape things and not get raped in return from the moment he joins.

Obviously, this isn't the only possible comparison, so let's assume Rolf would reach 20/2 without Mordecai gaining one single level.

20/2 Rolf

Steel Bow: 25.0 atk, 18.0 as ,, 33.0 hp, 14.0 def, 9.0 res, 48.0 avo

2 Mordecai, A Mist ,, B Ilyana

Claw: 34.0 atk, 11.0 as ,, 41.0 hp, 21.0 def, 12.0 res, 32.0 avo

Rofl. Rolf still gets owned. Even offensively, since Rolf is locked to 2 range while Mordecai is locked to 1 range. And he simply >>> Rolf when it comes to durability. And that's even WITHOUT being realistic. Do I need to prove more?

Well, I don't need to, but I'm going to anyway. When Rolf finally promotes, Mordecai will probably be level 9 or so, since Rolf levels slowly due to 2 range and lollable offense at first. Heck, Mordecai might even be level 10.

20/1 Rolf

Steel Bow: 24.6 atk, 17.5 as ,, 32.4 hp, 13.7 def, 8.7 res, 46.6 avo

9 Mordecai

Claw: 39.5 atk, 14.5 as ,, 51.5 hp, 23.8 def, 13.4 res, 41.8 avo

pwnd

Mordecai is much more mobile, especially before Rolf promotes. He has 1.5 times as much movement then, in fact, which is quite a lot. Also, although it's a bit less significant, Rolf can't shove crap, while the manly Mordecai can shove pretty much everything.

And then there's also the fact that Rolf attacks at 2 range, while Mordecai attacks at 1 range (and aside of the Longbow and Double Bow, of which the latter is even worse than a normal bow, there are no exceptions). 1 range > 2 range, since counterattacking >>>, and Rolf can't counterattack on the enemy phase.

Now, to address some other things~

So let Rolf get a couple of mooch kills and he'll level up once, maybe twice if you're commited to your job. Since he isn't afected by WT, you can pretty much let him kill anything.

Pretty much all other characters make more use of the experience than Rolf. Why would I give all those "mooch" kills to him in that case? Answer: you don't. Also, he isn't killing anything with that lulzworthy 13 base atk.

That means that he'll be hogging all the exp of his kills, while good young Rolf will be getting a lot of exp from his kills, since he's 3/0.

Mordecai is practically a level 22 unit, which means he doesn't need that 2100 experience Rolf would need to reach that level. Not needing exp > needing exp. (That's pretty much the short story >__<)

Since Mordecai is a laguz, then you'll have to wait for him to transfrom. It's a shame that he's starts with 0 on the gauge, and you don't get demi band until chapter 15.

He isn't attacking in chapter 10 and 15 anyway (and neither is Rolf), so that leaves four chapters in which he'll have to deal with being untransformed for roughly 50% of the time. But there are also those things called Laguz Stones which he can use (Lethe sucks anyway). And he has his uses untransformed as well, due to Smite and awesome durability. Him being "crippled" like this for four chapters is something very insignificant.

So you're stuck with two fairly useless units. Not.

Indeed. Where Mordecai is awesome, Rolf is the worst unit on our team. Massive raep for Mordecai (just pointing out the obvious).

Rolf grows, whereas Mordecai doesn't due to a ridiculously low exp gain.

Mordecai is leveling at a slower rate, yes, but that doesn't mean he isn't growing, since he's actually killing things and can actually counterattack. Not to mention that he gains bexp as well. Rolf levels purely from those <10 HP enemies he can kill from time to time and bexp in his early chapters. Mordecai starts raeping things immediately.

Mordecai will be lacking in speed in the future, he can no longer be a wall, since he'll get DA a lot, and this can eventually get him killed (although I got to admit he has durability).

eh?

19/20 endgame attack speed means he'll get double attacked by the occasional swordmaster, and that's it, really. He isn't getting doubled often at all.

Rolf, on the other hand will become faster and will be able to DA enemies, maybe leading t a kill.

So Mordecai isn't killing things with his superior offense? First of all, Rolf won't start reliably killing things until he promotes, and even then, all he has is player phase utility. I suppose he's fairly moderate at that phase. Mordecai's raping on both player phase AND enemy phase.

My point here is that they both start as pretty crappy units, but growth smiles on Rolf and lols at Mordecai.

Seriously, I still don't get how the hell you think Mordecai sucks upon joining. Even if he sucks, then Rolf sucks 849037534 times harder, as I've shown.

The ship is a fairly small space, and the brothers will probably be next to each other

lolno

They might be next to eachother, but there are no guarantees. Besides, there actually IS a chance they aren't played. Them being god tier does not justify them being used every single playthrough.

Then we have the C support with Rhys

Rhys sucks. He has pretty lolzy attack speed. He's definitely not worth it.

since we don't use Mist

Not using one of the best units in the game seems like a rather big mistake to me, really.

and it's a shame that Marcia sucks, because she would make a good support

??

Marcia is one of the best units in the game as well. Flying utility for the win. Too bad she already has Kieran and Tanith, though.

Wait, crows you said? Like, laguz with wings? Man, an archer would sure be useful... wait, who's there? It's Rolf to the rescue! His bows will save us! Yays for bows!

So, a 6/0 Rolf's Bow Rolf has 19 atk, while ??/3 Mordecai has ~36. Mordecai is clearly superior with nearly double atk, as well as being able to counter and being able to live. With a bit of luck, Mordecai can even one-round this Raven dood.

Also.

Rolf: 21.0 hp, 7.5 def, 8.5 as

Mordecai: 43.5 hp, 16.4 def, 11.5 as

Mordecai receives 1 damage and even has a 40% chance to take no damage at all. Rolf is actually one-rounded, or two-rounded if I'm being generous with the rounding. And 1 point of hp less means a one-round no matter what.

Also, Rolf is still not killing the Raven reliably, since he still needs four attacks, which he obviously can't do without dying, while Mordecai can possibly one-round (although most likely two-round, which is freaking awesome) and not get killed. Ever.

You can always give him an Arms Scroll for better results

There are two arms scrolls in the entire game. Giving Rolf one seems like a waste to me. At this point definitely, since he doesn't have the str to wield steel bows or longbows, since he loses some attack speed from them, which he definitely can't afford. Lolz at ~6 attack speed (that's his base, for the record, which was three chapter ago).

And Mist wouldn't mind being able to use Mend and better staves right off the bat, which is a much better choice than crippling Rolf even more.

Mordecai won't be able to do much in this level, since by the time he transforms the level is close to being over.

1) Laguz Stone

2) The Ravens eventually receive reinforcements which appear in different turns later on, so Mordecai will definitely be able to do something. And even if he wouldn't be able to kill things due to being untransformed, at least he could be useful for smiting and surviving, instead of failing at living and killing, and not being able to shove anything.

Rolf will be getting a lot of exp. Probably making 3 levels.

Yeah, right. Because his offense is so crappy, right? And because he sucks at living, right? He can be happy if he gains one level in this chapter. He might get another one from bexp, but three levels or even four is never going to happen.

From this point on, he no longer will be needing mooch kills, he'll just be finishing off enemies, or a contingency plan in case RNG screws you and makes you miss an ending blow with Oscar, etc.

massive lolzorz

He has 17 atk and 8 (being generous with the rounding again) as with a steel bow. Let's see how others are faring at this point (chapter 13). Levels might not be completely accurate.

(( Without supports, by the way, but Rolf doesn't have any anyway ))

atk/as

8/0 Rolf: 17/8

15/0 Ike: 20/15

15/0 Boyd: 26/12

15/0 Oscar: 21/10

??/4 Titania: 24/14

11/0 Gatrie: 23/6

12/0 Soren: 17/11

14/0 Mia: 18/15

12/0 Ilyana: 15-18/11-8

12/0 Marcia: 21/13

??/3 Mordecai: 36/12

??/4 Lethe: 27/16

14/0 Volke: 16/16

12/0 Nephenee: 20/11

15/0 Kieran: 24/11

12/0 Brom: 22/7

14/0 Zihark: 20/17

10/0 Jill: 22/10

Lolz at being the worst offensive unit. He might compete with Ilyana a bit, but considering she hits resistance and has 1-2 range, that's also not true. Same with Soren.

Since he's an archer, his def doesn't matter, since you'll keep him protected.

Of course his def matters. Fliers will always be able to reach Rolf, and there are always occasions where there pretty much MUST be holes in your frontlines, which means enemies can indeed attack Rolf. Mordecai doesn't ever have to worry about getting killed with his huge hp/def.

He'll probably promote at some point on Day Breaks, in which he'll become a valuable asset to your team.

Much later, actually. He's not killing things, sucks at surviving and doens't counter things. He'll probably promote at the end of chapter 20 or something, although I'll be generous and say he promotes at the end of chapter 17.

20/1 Rolf

Steel Bow: 24.6 atk, 17.5 as ,, 32.4 hp, 13.7 def, 8.7 res, 46.6 avo

9 Mordecai

Claw: 39.5 atk, 14.5 as ,, 51.5 hp, 23.8 def, 13.4 res, 41.8 avo

pwnd

And that's WITH being generous to Rolf.

Shinon. Let's compare stats.

Who cares? This is Rolf vs. Mordecai, not Rolf vs. Shinon.

Sorry it took me a couple of days.

EDIT: Fixed a couple of typos

Edited December 14, 2008 by Tino

[Legault]

For starters.

Rhys sucks. Lollable as is lollable.

God. That. Is. So. Wrong.

From GameFaqs average stats guide:

Average Magic, Skill, and Res exceed maximum.

This shows that is very likely that Rhys is fielded, giving a support to Rolf.

Then.

Ilyana might have Zihark for an A or B support, and that's it for her, which leaves a spot for Mordecai. Sweet.

Soren>Ilyana, nuff said. Ilyana is less likely to be fielded, not giving a support to Mordecai. Mist wants Boyd very badly (or in fact, the other way around, either way, discards A Mist), leaving Mordecai with a B Mist and a B Stefan, since Stefan wants Soren's dark atribute. That's of course, if you neglected Mia or Zihark, and have no other choice of a SM than Stefan (which is okay as a SM, nice skills, suckish luck, but I digress). But let's asume so and give Mordecai those supports.

Now that that's out of the way.

One day, there was Rolf. You know, that one 1/0 Archer with his Rolf's Bow. Oh yeah, that "one day" is in reality chapter 9.

How good is Rolf? Very bad.

Mist comes at the same chapter. And I recall you saying something quite intresting about her....

(about Mist) Not using one of the best units in the game seems like a rather big mistake to me, really.

So... how come a unit that joins at the same time as Rolf, has similar growths and bases is one of the best units of the game? Simple. She is. If Rolf weren't locked to bows, he would be as awsome as her. But since he is, he's just okay.

On to my next point. Experience.

Mordecai is practically a level 22 unit, which means he doesn't need that 2100 experience Rolf would need to reach that level. Not needing exp > needing exp. (That's pretty much the short story >__<)

Not needing exp=less space for growth. This means that there're less stat gains and the unit is more prompt for RNG rape. Of course, the extra growth might give RNG more weapons to rape you with, however it also means that the unit can end up awsome. Just like Rolf. All that growth can allow Rolf to end up as a great unit. His average skill and speed are pretty close to the caps, so Rolf might end up maxing this. Or he may not, but that's the bet right? However you can't make this gamble with Mordecai, so Rolf beats Mordecai on growth. Then.

Mordecai is leveling at a slower rate, yes, but that doesn't mean he isn't growing(...). Not to mention that he gains bexp as well. Rolf levels purely from those <10 HP enemies he can kill from time to time and bexp in his early chapters.

Now, acording to my calculations, 1 BEXP for Mordecai, is equal to 1.3 experience points for Rolf, asuming starting levels. Since Mordecai isn't killing much, he'll be relying on BEXP to get levels. However, the same amount of BEXP can be used to increase more levels on other units. So, in the long term, Mordecai is hurting the team, while Rolf isn't, because of the fact that he's underleveled, and therefore BEXP effective. He also doesn't completely rely on BEXP, since he'll be getting a lot of exp from kills, again due the fact that he's underleveled.

Also, he isn't killing anything with that lulzworthy 13 base atk.

That lulzworthy 13 base attack inflicts some damage on those loldiers with lulzworthy 7 defense. Heck, he can even hurt the boss on that chapter. The fact that at that point of the game anything is lulzworthy beside Mordecai's base attack is irrelevant.

As you might conclude from this, Mordecai >>> Rolf here, even if he would have full supports already. So what do we have? A crap unit vs. a hax unit.

Rolf joins at 1/0 on a chapter where everyone else. I would be surprised if he didn't suck. The thing is that in the long run he won't suck. Since Mordecai joins "promoted", he is good right away. However, he becomes bad on the long run. Let's compare them towards the endgame. Mordecai should be around lvl 17 or something, while Rolf should be 20/15. Or something.

Rolf - Sniper 20/15 A Rhys

Silver Bow Atk 35.2 Hit 156.9 AS 24.5 ,, HP 40.8 Def 17.9 Res 12.25 Avoid 73.2

Steel Bow Atk 31.2 Hit 151.9 AS 24.5 ,, HP 40.8 Def 17.9 Res 12.25 Avoid 73.2

Brave Bow Atk 32.2 Hit 151.9 AS 24.5 HP 40.8 Def 17.9 Res 12.25 Avoid 73.2

Laguz Bow Atk 32.2 Hit 156.9 AS 24.5 ,, HP 40.8 Def 17.9 Res 12.25 Avoid 73.2

Killer Bow Atk 31.2 Hit 156.9 AS 24.5 ,, HP 40.8 Def 17.9 Res 12.25 Avoid 73.2

(Nice table, eh?)

Mordecai - Tiger ??/17 B Stefan B Mist

. . . .Atk . . . . Hit . .AS . . . . . .HP . .Def . Res . Avoid

Claw 43.75 . . 153 . 20.25 . . . 63.5 . .25 . 10 . . 36.25

We can clearly see on table A that Rolf has a variety of weapons to choose. Here, the best one is the brave bow, due to the extra attacks it gives. Mordecai is clearly stronger on terms of brute strength, however Rolf is able to double enemies. Let's take an example from Twisted Tower. Like a warrior, a tiger and a dragon.

Warrior

Steel Axe - Atk 35 Hit 103 AS 18 ,, HP 53 Def 15 Avoid 44

Tiger

Claw - Atk 31 Hit 131 AS 18 ,, HP 46 Def 20 Avoid 39

Dragon

Breath - Atk 45 Hit 136 AS 18 ,, HP 56 Def 30 Avoid 40

Rolf (All real hit values are 98+)

vs Warrior . Atk.. DA .. Crit . . . Rounds

Silver Bow 19.2 . Yes .. 21.425 . 2

Steel Bow 15.2 . Yes .. 21.425 . 2

Brave Bow 16.2 . Yes .. 21.425 . 1

Laguz Bow 16.2 . Yes . 21.425 . 2

Killer Bow 15.2 . Yes .. 51.425 . 1

(The killer bow 1 rounds the warrior because statistically, every 2nd attack will be a critical)

vs Tiger . . Atk.. DA .. . Crit . . . . Rounds

Silver Bow 14.2 . Yes .. 24.425 . 2

Steel Bow 10.2 . Yes .. 24.425 . 2

Brave Bow 11.2 . Yes .. 24.425 . 1

Laguz Bow 21.2 . Yes . 24.425 . 2

Killer Bow 10.2 . Yes .. 54.425 . 2

vs Dragon Atk DA Crit Rounds

Silver Bow 4.2 Yes 23.425 5

Steel Bow 0.2 Yes 23.425 Doesn't kill

Brave Bow 1.2 Yes 23.425 7

Laguz Bow 11.2 Yes 23.425 2

Killer Bow 0.2 Yes 53.425 Doesn't kill

Rolf has no troubles with anything but the dragon, but that's understandable (dude, it IS a dragon). Obviously, the weapon of choice will be the Brave Bow, which allows him to 1 round. Let's see Mordecai

Mordecai (All real hit values are 99+)

vs Warrior

Claw Atk 25.8 DA No Crit 11 Rounds 3

vs Tiger

Claw Atk 20.8 DA No Crit 21.4 Rounds 3

vs Dragon

Claw Atk 10.8 DA No Crit 20.4 Rounds 6

As we can see, Mordecai fails to double stuff later on the game, making him uneffective to battle. Since he attacks head on, he will get countered, whereas Rolf won't. Therefore Rolf>Mordecai. One might argue "He's only better towards the end of the game!" I say that if we go back in time a few chapters, the results will be similar. If we go back to chapter 22, Mordecai might be able to double a couple of units, but not many. Conversely, Rolf will be able to kill more stuff. And it just goes in an inversely proportional way until where they both join. However, Rolf joins at a very low level, and if you plan in using him, you have to balance him out with the rest of the team. This increases the proportion constant, making Mordecai less useless in comparasion to Rolf along time. In few words, if you plan on using Rolf, you have to get him to a decent level before he can pull his own weight. This makes Rolf better than Mordecai faster, since he reaches higher levels faster.

Then

He isn't attacking in chapter 10 and 15 anyway (and neither is Rolf)

If you screw BEXP, both are attacking on chapter 10. I believe that screwing BEXP nets you more exp, but I really don't know. I believe it would, since BEXP is easily diluted, but I digress. Mordecai doesn't attack here due to not being able to be an omgolzorsreap tiger. By the time he is, the chapter is pretty much over (units guarding the escape route and boss still standing).

so that leaves four chapters in which he'll have to deal with being untransformed for roughly 50% of the time.

Let's make a quick recap. Chapter 11, nothing special; chapter 12, raven chapter, survive for x amount of turns, where x is just above transformation time for Mordecai (utility for surviving and smiting things and blocking entrance still accepted); chapter 13, defend for x amount of turns, where x means the same thing, if not less; chapter 14, FoW chapter, easier than average. Half of these chapters are fairly short. The other half is about killing things, which Mordecai can't inmediately do, because of him not being able to attack all the time.

But there are also those things called Laguz Stones which he can use (Lethe sucks anyway).

Yeah, those things called Laguz Stones happen to be as rare as Arms Scrolls. You get 2 uses from each, but still not so helpful. And asuming you use a laguz stone, the best you can handle is 7 attacks before untransforming. Then you have to hait 5 turns to transform again, and by then you probably finished the level. So, remind me how is it that Mordecai is growing? BEXP? I already proved that Mordecai is BEXP ineffective, and the experience he gains from battles isn't that much either ways. So he levels very slowly. If you add this fact together with the inverse proportion of usefulness (IPU), then you get that Rolf is a better unit than Mordecai on the long run. However you might still argue that in terms of usefulness, Mordecai is better due to smite, walls, etc, etc. Which in fact you did. (Lethe doesn't suck as hard as Mordecai for being able to double and avoid stuff)

And he has his uses untransformed as well, due to Smite and awesome durability. Him being "crippled" like this for four chapters is something very insignificant.

Smite: To shove 2 spaces. Umm... yeah, very useful. I don't really see how that is such a big help. I mean, in small maps, maybe, but you get like those 2 ship chapters and that's it. Then you can only need smiting on very rare ocations (I mean as a must). If you're totally obliterating through the opponent's army, you don't really need to shove anything, let alone smite. It's a nice extra (like for Mordecai to say "Yeah, I can read, run really fast and smite"), but not much overall usefulness. Untransformed he is a liabilty, because his awsome durability is not as awsome when swarmed. Because y'know...

there are always occasions where there pretty much MUST be holes in your frontlines

...flyers are a problem in this cases. In any case, his awsome durability becomes not as the game progresses, since he doesn't gain many levels, as I've already proved. So yeah, untransformed he sucks even harder for not being able to kill anything. And being a liability. (Before you object this with by replacing Mordecai with Rolf, Rolf's Avo>>>Mordecai's Avo on the long run, and Rolf also gains some durability on the long run)

After you get the demi band on chapter 15, (let's say on level 5 WITH being generous) he has 12 spd and 16.6 def with it equiped (unless I'm wrong and the demi band takes away stats based on %s). The def is okay, but the speed is lolzworthy. Seriously. He has the same speed as the enemy, and the enemy plainly sucks stat-wise (except maybe bosses and some other units). His strength is okay, so the penalty won't hurt as much, but if we make the calculations above with Demi Band Mordecai, then Rolf is seriously ahead of him, and it just helps the principle of IPU.

On to another thing, Rolf can attack at a distance. Can Mordecai attack at a distance? No, that's right, he can only get attacked at a distance. Since AI is kinda dumb, it prefers to attack things that can't counter. Since Rolf will counter when distance attacked, AI won't attack him (and with Rolf's low defense, that is a good thing). However, Mordecai untransformed can't counter whatsoever, so the AI will do everything in its power to attack Mordecai. Since the AI isn't very effective, it will just throw units in random order at Mordecai to try to kill him, so he can survive if he gets lucky. If he gets unlucky he dies. This is a 50% chance that he dies (die or not die... that's the question? oh and because there're only 2 options) which Rolf doesn't have. And if Rolf get's surrounded, he can always count on his avoidability.

Wow, that was a long wait. I'm really, really sorry for making you wait so much. Oh well, here's the argument.

Btw, Rolf>Mordecai

Tino's Phase. Begin.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Legault

[Tino]

From GameFaqs average stats guide:

GameFAQs is gay. Use this as a source for average stats instead.

Average Magic, Skill, and Res exceed maximum.

This shows that is very likely that Rhys is fielded, giving a support to Rolf.

Nah. This only shows that he caps his MAG, SKL and RES on average if he reaches 20/20, which he won't. Rhys has no durability, no good supports and crap offense due to his very low AS. All he has is healing utility and RES. Nothing more. That's definitely not going to save his ass. He's great earlygame, but as soon as others start promoting, Rhys starts becoming relatively worse compared to your other units. Not good.

Soren>Ilyana, nuff said. Ilyana is less likely to be fielded, not giving a support to Mordecai. Mist wants Boyd very badly (or in fact, the other way around, either way, discards A Mist), leaving Mordecai with a B Mist and a B Stefan, since Stefan wants Soren's dark atribute. That's of course, if you neglected Mia or Zihark, and have no other choice of a SM than Stefan (which is okay as a SM, nice skills, suckish luck, but I digress). But let's asume so and give Mordecai those supports.

Yes. Soren > Ilyana indeed. So? One Sage being better than another doesn't mean the other isn't fielded. Ilyana and Soren are fairly similar, except that Ilyana has some earlygame doubling issues and has superior concrete durability due to supports. Let me elaborate with an example.

We have 12 units. 10 of those units have 40 HP and 10 in every other stat. All of them are of different classes. Then we have two Sages remaining. One of them has 80 HP and 20 in every stat, while the other has 70 HP and 19 in every other stat. Though the second Sage is slightly inferior, he's still the second best unit at our disposal. He's nearly twice as good as your other units, yet you're not going to field him because he's not as good as the other possible Sage... Not a good idea, eh?

Mist doesn't want Boyd at all indeed. She benefits more from the durability bonuses Mordecai and Jill/Titania give. She doesn't do much with the offensive bonuses Boyd grants, since she'll always suck at killing things anyway. Does Boyd benefit from the +1 DEF/RES?

20/10 Boyd has 53 HP/14 DEF. Assuming a 29 ATK enemy, Boyd is killed in four hits. If he has 15 DEF, he'll get killed in four hits as well. Nope, he doesn't benefit from the extra defense Mist grants him.

In other words, that A Mist still stands, as does the B Ilyana. Also, it's the same as with the Sage example. The fact that there are other Swordmasters doesn't mean you can't use Stefan as well. It doesn't matter though, since Mordecai doesn't support Stefan anyway.

So... how come a unit that joins at the same time as Rolf, has similar growths and bases is one of the best units of the game? Simple. She is. If Rolf weren't locked to bows, he would be as awsome as her. But since he is, he's just okay.

If it would be this simple to determine a unit's usefulness, then debating would be no fun at all. No, Mist is among the best because she has actual supports of which she benefits, has healing utility, a mount upon promotion, etc. Rolf is nothing but a massive combat failure.

Not needing exp=less space for growth. This means that there're less stat gains and the unit is more prompt for RNG rape. Of course, the extra growth might give RNG more weapons to rape you with, however it also means that the unit can end up awsome. Just like Rolf. All that growth can allow Rolf to end up as a great unit. His average skill and speed are pretty close to the caps, so Rolf might end up maxing this. Or he may not, but that's the bet right? However you can't make this gamble with Mordecai, so Rolf beats Mordecai on growth.

Mordecai doesn't need the EXP. How can you even consider that being a negative? It's like saying Boyd not needing a Energy Drop while Mist does is a negative for Zihark.

Gaining less EXP isn't a negative either. Mordecai gains less EXP since he's at a higher level already. Mordecai comes with 2100 more EXP than Rolf. As such, he's taking away less EXP from the team than Rolf, who doesn't do much with the EXP anyway, since he'll always be a failure. The fact that Mordecai doesn't gain as much EXP means he'll improve less than Rolf if both get the same amount of kills. When both kill nothing, Mordecai is superior. When both kill 10 enemies, Mordecai still wins, even though he's still at base level and Rolf is at level 6/0 or something.

Now, acording to my calculations, 1 BEXP for Mordecai, is equal to 1.3 experience points for Rolf, asuming starting levels. Since Mordecai isn't killing much, he'll be relying on BEXP to get levels. However, the same amount of BEXP can be used to increase more levels on other units. So, in the long term, Mordecai is hurting the team, while Rolf isn't, because of the fact that he's underleveled, and therefore BEXP effective. He also doesn't completely rely on BEXP, since he'll be getting a lot of exp from kills, again due the fact that he's underleveled.

Everbody is entitled to BEXP once the unit is decided to be on the team, so Mordecai is entitled to just as much BEXP as Rolf is. As for the EXP gain issue, read the above paragraph.

Mordecai is also entitled to just as much kills as Rolf is, since he's on our team as well. And even if Mordecai doesn't gain any kills while Rolf does, Mordecai still wins at equal levels, like I've shown in my previous post.

20/2 Rolf

Steel Bow: 25.0 ATK, 18.0 AS ,, 33.0 HP, 14.0 DEF, 9.0 RES, 48.0 AVO

2 Mordecai, A Mist ,, B Ilyana

Claw: 34.0 ATK, 11.0 AS ,, 41.0 HP, 21.0 DEF, 12.0 RES, 32.0 AVO

Rofl. Rolf still gets owned. Even offensively, since Rolf is locked to 2 range while Mordecai is locked to 1 range. And he simply >>> Rolf when it comes to durability. And that's even WITHOUT being realistic. Do I need to prove more?

That lulzworthy 13 base attack inflicts some damage on those loldiers with lulzworthy 7 defense. Heck, he can even hurt the boss on that chapter. The fact that at that point of the game anything is lulzworthy beside Mordecai's base attack is irrelevant.

Soldiers are actually fairly decent in this game. The only truly lollable enemies in this game are Priests, who can't even attack. Also, you're acting as if simply damaging those enemies is a good thing, while it really isn't. Rolf deals a lollable 6 damage, which is nothing. Everybody on the team has better offense than Rolf, including Mordecai.

In fact, Mordecai deals 27 damage to a 7 DEF enemy, which is 4.5 times as much as Rolf, which is quite a ton.

Nothing at this point in the game is truly lulzworthy, aside of Rolf.

Rolf joins at 1/0 on a chapter where everyone else. I would be surprised if he didn't suck. The thing is that in the long run he won't suck. Since Mordecai joins "promoted", he is good right away. However, he becomes bad on the long run

You're just going by popular belief. Do you also think FE9 Titania sucks because of this? Do you think Knoll is the best unit because he joins underlevelled? Do you think Seth sucks? Or how about Ewan? Is he suddenly awesome because he's the most underlevelled unit in the game? Indeed, this all doesn't hold true, since Titania and Seth are arguably the best units in their game, while Ewan and Knoll are among the worst units in their game.

The fact that Rolf sucks upon joining is just that: a fact. He's the worst unit at your disposal, and nothing's going to change that. The fact that others are at a higher level at this point in the game won't, either. Mordecai is awesome when he joins, which is obviously not a bad thing. The fact that his lategame performance is worse than his earlygame performance won't change this. Rolf sucks earlygame, and doesn't perform very outstanding lategame. Or rather, he's still pretty sucky lategame.

Let's compare them towards the endgame. Mordecai should be around lvl 17 or something, while Rolf should be 20/15. Or something.

Not even remotely close. Mordecai will start gaining more and more EXP as the game goes on, since enemies are getting higher levels. Rolf still sucks at fighting and living, so he doesn't grow as fast that he can close the level gap like that, especially from the moment he promotes, since he'll also be gaining less EXP than when he was massively underleveled, which he isn't anymore as soon as he promotes, while Mordecai isn't as massively overlevelled anymore.

20/8 Rolf

Silver Bow: 31.4 ATK, 21.0 AS ,, 36.6 HP, 15.8 DEF, 10.5 RES, 56.4 AVO

??/20 Mordecai, A Mist/B Ilyana

Claw: 46.7 atk, 20.0 AS ,, 68.0 HP, 28.2 DEF, 15.6 RES, 57.2 AVO

Indeed, I was being very generous with some of my previous comparisons, but this actually is a pretty fair comparison, since Rolf always sucks at fighting and living before promotion and has no enemy phase action, while Mordecai is always countering and actually kills things and manages to survive pretty much anything thrown at him.

We can clearly see on table A that Rolf has a variety of weapons to choose. Here, the best one is the brave bow, due to the extra attacks it gives. Mordecai is clearly stronger on terms of brute strength, however Rolf is able to double enemies. Let's take an example from Twisted Tower. Like a warrior, a tiger and a dragon.

Yeah, he can choose between bows and... bows. Fail. No matter how many bows he can use, he still sucks due to not being able to counter and thus having no enemy phase action. Also, of course the Brave Bow is the best weapon for his, since it allows him to attack up to four times. Point is, Astrid might want it as well. Or perhaps Geoffrey. Or perhaps you have already used it? Or how about Boyd? There are either other units who want it, and then there's the fact that there's only one Brave Bow, and it has only 30 uses. No, he can do with a Silver Bow, but that's it really. Perhaps a Killer Bow, but there's only a limited amount of them as well, and they have only 20 uses and there are, again, others who want them as well.

Warrior

Steel Axe - Atk 35 Hit 103 AS 18 ,, HP 53 Def 15 Avoid 44

Tiger

Claw - Atk 31 Hit 131 AS 18 ,, HP 46 Def 20 Avoid 39

Dragon

Breath - Atk 45 Hit 136 AS 18 ,, HP 56 Def 30 Avoid 40

lotsoftables

Rolf: 31 ATK/21 AS

Mordecai: 47 ATK/20 AS

Rolf four-rounds the Warrior, while Mordecai two-rounds with his massive ATK. Rolf five-rounds the Tiger, while Mordecai two-rounds. Rolf 56-rounds the Dragon, while Mordecai four-rounds. Even if Rolf would have one more ATK and one more AS, he would still be inferior, since Rolf now two-rounds the Warrior, two-rounds the Tiger, and 14-rounds the Dragon. Though he's equal against some more enemies now, he's still far inferior against another enemy, and possibly some more as well.

And then comes durability... I don't even need to go in-depth on that one. Rolf simple gets owned hard. Very hard. Very, very, very hard. Whoops. Mordecai is far superior to Rolf, even when he's supposedly at his worst.

Since he attacks head on, he will get countered, whereas Rolf won't.

This is actually a negative for Rolf, since it doesn't allow him any enemy phase action, which means less EXP for him. Mordecai will be countering attacks on the enemy phase and he won't die thanks to his massive durability, so he'll gain much more EXP.

Rolf joins at a very low level, and if you plan in using him, you have to balance him out with the rest of the team.

No. There's no rule that tells you that everybody should be at equal levels. That's a load of bullshit. Rolf comes underlevelled, sucks at killing and surviving, and thus won't level as quickly and thus won't catch up as quickly. At least he's not going to surpass many units, if any at all.

In few words, if you plan on using Rolf, you have to get him to a decent level before he can pull his own weight.

So... the fact that he requires massive babying and thus requires a lot of special treatment that Mordecai doesn't need is a GOOD thing for Rolf? Massive lol at that.

If you screw BEXP, both are attacking on chapter 10. I believe that screwing BEXP nets you more exp, but I really don't know. I believe it would, since BEXP is easily diluted, but I digress. Mordecai doesn't attack here due to not being able to be an omgolzorsreap tiger. By the time he is, the chapter is pretty much over (units guarding the escape route and boss still standing).

If that's how you think about it, okay.

Rolf gets killed easily in Prisoner Release and can't kill anything thanks to lots of high DEF Soldiers and Knights and Archers and Mages which counter him. He's not really benefitting much from fighting. Even if Mordecai isn't transformed, he still isn't a detriment to the team thanks to great durability and the ability to Smite people, which can be useful at times as well.

Detriment <<< No detriment

But then we shouldn't forget that Mordecai can also use a Laguz Stone to transform, making his usefulness even more valuable.

Let's make a quick recap. Chapter 11, nothing special; chapter 12, raven chapter, survive for x amount of turns, where x is just above transformation time for Mordecai (utility for surviving and smiting things and blocking entrance still accepted); chapter 13, defend for x amount of turns, where x means the same thing, if not less; chapter 14, FoW chapter, easier than average. Half of these chapters are fairly short. The other half is about killing things, which Mordecai can't inmediately do, because of him not being able to attack all the time.

Blood Runs Red has lots of high DEF units like Soldiers, Knights and Weapon Knights. Rolf doesn't do much good against them. The only enemy he's good against is the Priest, which he doesn't even kill. Massive lolz.

A Strange Land has many Ravens indeed, which grant not only Rolf, but also Mordecai massive EXP. And Mordecai can actually survive some attacks, while Rolf is one-rounded by the Ravens. He's going to get himself killed unless he has four units surrounding him, which means he needs even more special treatment, and reduces his efficiency to nearly zero. Also, A Strange Land isn't a defend chapter, but a rout chapter in which you have to kill all enemies.

A Guiding Wind once again features many high DEF units, and otherwise high HP or high AS units, against which Rolf has big trouble as well. He only has a chance against the Ravens perhaps, but going after them means he puts himself in grave danger once again. And Mordecai can easily transform in ten turns, especially since he'll also get attacked sometimes to make his transformation bar rise a bit faster.

Training has many high ATK enemies, which completely rape Rolf's horrible durability. Then there are also some Hand Axe dudes, who even counter Rolf. Not to mention that Rolf fails to double and hits their high HP.

Mordecai can't kill immediately unless he uses a Laguz Stone, but neither can Rolf due to his lollable ATK/AS combination at this point in the game and his 2 range lock.

Yeah, those things called Laguz Stones happen to be as rare as Arms Scrolls. You get 2 uses from each, but still not so helpful. And asuming you use a laguz stone, the best you can handle is 7 attacks before untransforming. Then you have to hait 5 turns to transform again, and by then you probably finished the level. So, remind me how is it that Mordecai is growing? BEXP? I already proved that Mordecai is BEXP ineffective, and the experience he gains from battles isn't that much either ways. So he levels very slowly. If you add this fact together with the inverse proportion of usefulness (IPU), then you get that Rolf is a better unit than Mordecai on the long run. However you might still argue that in terms of usefulness, Mordecai is better due to smite, walls, etc, etc. Which in fact you did. (Lethe doesn't suck as hard as Mordecai for being able to double and avoid stuff)

Lethe comes with a Laguz Stone which Mordecai can use, and one of the Chapter 12 Ravens drops a Laguz Stone, which means there are at least 2 Laguz Stones which Mordecai can use before the Demi Band arrives, which means 4 uses, which is more than enough for four chapters of combat. And as you said, most chapters are fairly short, so the fact that he can perform only seven attacks means that's just enough.

As for Lethe vs. Mordecai, Mordecai is much better.

??/2 Mordecai

Claw: 31.0 ATK, 11.0 AS ,, 41.0 HP, 16.0 DEF, 7.0 RES, 32.0 AVO

??/3 Lethe

Claw: 26.0 ATK, 15.0 AS ,, 34.0 HP, 17.0 DEF, 10.0 RES, 45.0 AVO

??/20 Mordecai, A Mist/B Ilyana

Claw: 46.7 ATK, 20.0 AS ,, 68.0 HP, 28.2 DEF, 15.6 RES, 57.2 AVO

??/20 Lethe

Claw: 36.5 ATK, 26.9 AS ,, 56.1 HP, 20.8 DEF, 14.2 RES, 77.3 AVO

Though Lethe is indeed doubling things, Mordecai still deals 10 more damage per hit and has far superior concrete durability, which >> 20 AVO for sure. Mordecai is easily superior to Lethe, especially if you also factor in Mordecai having supports and having Smite.

Smite: To shove 2 spaces. Umm... yeah, very useful. I don't really see how that is such a big help. I mean, in small maps, maybe, but you get like those 2 ship chapters and that's it. Then you can only need smiting on very rare ocations (I mean as a must). If you're totally obliterating through the opponent's army, you don't really need to shove anything, let alone smite. It's a nice extra (like for Mordecai to say "Yeah, I can read, run really fast and smite"), but not much overall usefulness. Untransformed he is a liabilty, because his awsome durability is not as awsome when swarmed. Because y'know...

Smite definitely is useful, since it allows you to reach chests faster, allows you to kill enemies faster, allows you to reach certain chokepoints faster, etc. Smite is definitely useful. Also, without Smite, recruiting one of the best characters in the game, Astrid, becomes fairly luck-based, while with Smite, it's possible to recruit Astrid in one turn. And on large maps, which appear later in the game as well, Smite definitely is undeniably useful. And while Mordecai can shove pretty much everybody two spaces away, Rolf can't shove anyone. Awesome shit for Mordecai right there.

His awesome durability actually is awesome when swarmed, since he'll only get attacked by at most four~six units, and six is a very high estimate. That's never really going to happen. 68 HP/25 DEF allows him to survive pretty much anything; even five attacks. Considering that 29 ATK enemy again, and considering at most 12 enemies can attack him, he'll still survive since he takes only 4 damage per hit. He'll still be left with 20 HP, which means he can also survive another long-range magic hit as well.

In any case, his awsome durability becomes not as the game progresses, since he doesn't gain many levels, as I've already proved. So yeah, untransformed he sucks even harder for not being able to kill anything. And being a liability. (Before you object this with by replacing Mordecai with Rolf, Rolf's Avo>>>Mordecai's Avo on the long run, and Rolf also gains some durability on the long run)

Rolf's durability is still far, far inferior to Mordecai's, which is the only thing that counts. And after chapter 15, he's never untransformed anymore.

After you get the demi band on chapter 15, (let's say on level 5 WITH being generous) he has 12 spd and 16.6 def with it equiped (unless I'm wrong and the demi band takes away stats based on %s). The def is okay, but the speed is lolzworthy. Seriously. He has the same speed as the enemy, and the enemy plainly sucks stat-wise (except maybe bosses and some other units). His strength is okay, so the penalty won't hurt as much, but if we make the calculations above with Demi Band Mordecai, then Rolf is seriously ahead of him, and it just helps the principle of IPU.

10/0 Rolf has 10.5 SPD... Oh snap, that's worse than Mordecai's, which means Rolf must suck really, really hard.

Also, enemies are actually pretty strong. It's just that you have so many overpowered characters that makes the enemy seem weaker than it truly is.

On to another thing, Rolf can attack at a distance. Can Mordecai attack at a distance? No, that's right, he can only get attacked at a distance. Since AI is kinda dumb, it prefers to attack things that can't counter. Since Rolf will counter when distance attacked, AI won't attack him (and with Rolf's low defense, that is a good thing). However, Mordecai untransformed can't counter whatsoever, so the AI will do everything in its power to attack Mordecai. Since the AI isn't very effective, it will just throw units in random order at Mordecai to try to kill him, so he can survive if he gets lucky. If he gets unlucky he dies. This is a 50% chance that he dies (die or not die... that's the question? oh and because there're only 2 options) which Rolf doesn't have. And if Rolf get's surrounded, he can always count on his avoidability.

True. Now look at it from another point of view. Rolf can't attack from close range, while Mordecai can. 1 range lock > 2 range lock, since not being able to counter anything sucks hard. His earlygame AVO is massive suck, and his lategame AVO also isn't very reliable. ~56 AVO is nothing to be proud of, since enemies have 110+ hit endgame, which means he has a 50+ percent chance of getting hit, which sucks considering his fairly low lategame durability, while Mordecai's lategame durability is massive win.

You seem to revolve pretty much everything around the fact that Mordecai is untransformed for 50% of the time in four chapters of combat, though you seem to forget that Demi Band!Mordecai is always transformed, and he can always choose to get full transformation bonuses by unequipping it and using a Laguz Stone, or to wait for a while and transform naturally.

[Legault]

First of all.

GameFAQs is gay. Use this as a source for average stats instead.

Thanks, I've been looking for something like this. It's REALLY useful (now I don't have to Excel everything).

Now for my closing statement.

I've had enough with supports, so let's asume the ones you gave, so let's begin with part 4.

And after chapter 15, he's never untransformed anymore.

I was expecting something like this. Ranulf would like a word with you. Yeah, probably one of the best non-royal laguz on the game (although competition practically hands him over that spot). When joining he has 33/20. Mordecai probably is around that level, since enemies have just started catching up with the experience given. Let's say he is lvl 11. That gives him 36/15.5. This means that Ranulf will always do superior damage due to being able to DA, and if he doesn't, then Mordecai gets DA. This obviously means that Ranulf is a better candidate for the Demi Band, or the spare laguz stones that you haven't been using. This is on chapter 23. Just when the game starts getting serious. This means that Mordecai again has to wait 5 turns before transforming on every chapter. Let's go chapter by chapter.

The Great Bridge - Fortunately Ranulf joins before the battle, so you can give him the Demi Band right away. If not, you can give him that spare laguz stone, since acording to you, they were used on Mordecai.

Battle Reunion - Ranulf will be definetely getting the Demi Band here, because of the mobility needed. Mordecai is a liability because of the early wyverns that want to kill laguz. Those balistae are also mean.

Strange Lands - Terrain imparement. Mordecai untransformed. Nuff said.

Clash! (My favourite chapter) - So many enemies everywhere. NO way Mordecai is leaving this place with a scratch. He will probably be able to transform due to the ridiculously amount of enemies there, but the long range mages will probably snipe him down. You can also get screwed by him untransforming at the worst timing.

Moment of Fate - In a worst case scenario, Ike will be getting all the kills rendering not only Mordecai, but all other units on the team useless. Since this probably won't be the case, long range magic attacks will always be a problem for Mordecai. Will be able to score some kills, since it takes some time to open the doors. Might as well say that he will solo the side room with the hawks (the other side has a meteor and bolganone).

Twisted Tower - Mordecai may be able to weaken the dragons, which at this point of the game are the only enemies that aren't instantly obliterated.

Endgame - Probably useful. Not going to kill much though.

Detriment <<< No detriment

The sudden appearance of Ranulf seriously hinders Mordecai's growth, since he's losing the demi band and therefore his ability to remain transformed at all times. Since you don't get any more laguz stones until far on the game (which you will probably give again to Ranulf anyways), that will be the case. Meaning that previous level comparisons are wrong. He won't be hitting ??/20, no way. He will probably get up to lvl 13. Also, towards endgame there's no way Rolf is just lvl 8. Once he promotes, he should be consistently killing things every now and then for his smexy abilty to critical (high skill and class bonus, not to mention the situational triangle attack and brothers bonus). He should at least be lvl 12 because of the invaluable ability to attack in a 2 range needed in Solo and because of a level full of laguz units, but I won't abuse my luck and call him lvl 10.

20/10 Rolf

Silver Bow: 32.2 ATK, 22.0 AS ,, 37.2 HP, 16.4 DEF, 11.0 RES, 57.2 AVO

??/13 Mordecai, A Mist/B Ilyana

Claw: 42.1 atk, 13.5 AS ,, 57.5 HP, 25.8 DEF, 15.0 RES, 42.4 AVO

Major unability of Mordecai of DA anything. Let's kill the same enemies again.

Warrior

Steel Axe - Atk 35 Hit 103 AS 18 ,, HP 53 Def 15 Avoid 44

Tiger

Claw - Atk 31 Hit 131 AS 18 ,, HP 46 Def 20 Avoid 39

Dragon

Breath - Atk 45 Hit 136 AS 18 ,, HP 56 Def 30 Avoid 40

Rolf 2 rounds the Warrior, and so does Mordecai (barely). Rolf 2 rounds the Tiger, however Mordecai 3 rounds him. Rolf 7 rounds the dragon. Mordecai gets 2 rounded by the dragon, but ignoring that, he 5 rounds the dragon (the advantages of being able to attack from 2 range). That's with Rolf using a Silver Bow. If he used a Laguz Bow, he'd still 2 round the Tiger and 4 round the dragon. And that's with ignoring criticals (hit is irrelevant, as I proved last time, both of them have almost certain hit chance against both of them). This game seems to be built specially for Rolf to be able to critical. His average criticalling chance will almost never be under 20 (thanks to enemy's sucky luck). Then there's the triangle attack. Really useful again in Solo, since there's always the chance that RNG will screw you and make the boss activate Colossus, but I digress, were are with the warrior, tiger and dragon here. Rolf is superior against all enemies due to his ability of changing weapons, and even if he only had silver, he is superior against 1 enemy, ties with Mordecai with another, and gets beaten on the dragon, which is an evil dood that you will never ever solo. So yeah, Rolf > Mordecai towards endgame. God bless Ranulf and his whiskers.

Then

Soldiers are actually fairly decent in this game. The only truly lollable enemies in this game are Priests, who can't even attack. Also, you're acting as if simply damaging those enemies is a good thing, while it really isn't.

Actually, just by being able to damage stuff, he gains experience. Idk you, but to train units, I make all units that can damage an enemy attack before actually killing it with a stronger unit, even if the stronger unit can kill the enemy in the first place. Because that lil bit of experience eventually will build up in a level. (I write this paragraph with the risk of being misunderstood. This strategy is an oversimplification because most of the time enemies aren't on their own, and you'll need those other units. But you should get the point).

You're just going by popular belief. Do you also think FE9 Titania sucks because of this? Do you think Knoll is the best unit because he joins underlevelled? Do you think Seth sucks? Or how about Ewan? Is he suddenly awesome because he's the most underlevelled unit in the game? Indeed, this all doesn't hold true, since Titania and Seth are arguably the best units in their game, while Ewan and Knoll are among the worst units in their game.

You misunderstood what I said. I didn't meant it as a general fact, I mean in this specific situation. (Btw, my answers to the questions are "No F-ing way but other units are better, you have to make up a new word for how awsome Seth is, I kinda liked Knoll because he could summon Tomahawk dudes and dark magic and Ewan is ew)

The fact that Rolf sucks upon joining is just that: a fact. He's the worst unit at your disposal, and nothing's going to change that. The fact that others are at a higher level at this point in the game won't, either. Mordecai is awesome when he joins, which is obviously not a bad thing. The fact that his lategame performance is worse than his earlygame performance won't change this. Rolf sucks earlygame, and doesn't perform very outstanding lategame. Or rather, he's still pretty sucky lategame.

Here we're debating Mordecai and Rolf. I just have to prove that Rolf is better than Mordecai, not better than other units.

Also, of course the Brave Bow is the best weapon for his, since it allows him to attack up to four times. Point is, Astrid might want it as well. Or perhaps Geoffrey. Or perhaps you have already used it? Or how about Boyd? There are either other units who want it, and then there's the fact that there's only one Brave Bow, and it has only 30 uses. No, he can do with a Silver Bow, but that's it really. Perhaps a Killer Bow, but there's only a limited amount of them as well, and they have only 20 uses and there are, again, others who want them as well.

Geoffrey, Boyd and Astrid aren't locked to bows. As for specifics: don't make me laugh, Geoffrey already has Brave Lance for x4 attacks and, Boyd will never reach B-level bow unless you use both arms scrolls and even then you'd have to bow abuse him and Astrid... well, she has other weapons. I really can't say much else. Killer bows with Rolf are only if you desperately need that critical, because of his high base critical.

As for Lethe vs. Mordecai, Mordecai is much better.

Again, we're debating Rolf and Mordecai.

Rolf's durability is still far, far inferior to Mordecai's, which is the only thing that counts

Okay, point taken. However, Mordecai's durability is incredibly crippled by fire magic, and there're a fairly decent amount of mages in the game that use fire magic. On the later chapters, Rolf can easily one round mages. This is a plus to Rolf.

Something about smite and being useful.

Okay. Let's play that way. Smite is useful to move characters. The triangle attack is much more useful due to being able to do damage (usually kill stuff) and being very adaptable (different weapons used, Boyd's ridiculously high Str, etc)

Also, enemies are actually pretty strong. It's just that you have so many overpowered characters that makes the enemy seem weaker than it truly is.

Rly? I guess I never noticed. Oh well.

Well, that's about everything I can say about Rolf. For a quick recap. Mordecai won't surpass him due to Ranulf's appearance, Rolf starts out slow as a crappy unit but turns out to be quite decent for his ability to critical once every 5 attacks, which is a crapton of criticals. His speed also helps him to one round stuff. Triangle attack for utility. Bonuses from brothers. (That was a hard first debate)

Again, Rolf>Mordecai.

Your turn, Tino.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Legault

[Tino]

I've had enough with supports, so let's asume the ones you gave, so let's begin with part 4.

So I win that point. Cool.

Ranulf would like a word with you. Yeah, probably one of the best non-royal laguz on the game (although competition practically hands him over that spot).

One of the best? Try one of the worst. Muarim, Mordecai, Lethe and Reyson are all better than him, and Janaff and Ulki at least have flier utility, so they're arguably better as well. So he's better than Nasir and Ena, who suck balls. He's arguably the third worst Laguz in the game. Fail.

When joining he has 33/20. Mordecai probably is around that level, since enemies have just started catching up with the experience given.

I guess Mordecai can be ??/11 or something by then, though ??/12 wouldn't surprise me. And you conveniently forgot durability.

??/12 Mordecai, A Mist ,, B Ilyana

Claw: 37.5 Atk, 16.0 AS ,, 56.0 HP, 25.0 Def, 14.0 Res, 46.0 Avo

??/9 Ranulf

Claw: 33.0 Atk, 20.0 AS ,, 46.0 HP, 22.0 Def, 9.0 Res, 53.0 Avo

So, Mordecai has far better durability and actually benefits two other units through support bonuses.

And it's not like Mordecai can't double anything. Mordecai can double Generals, Halberdiers, Wyvern Lords, some Sages, Bishops and an occasional Sniper as well. And he can often double unpromoted units as well, such as Soldiers, Wyvern Riders, etc. And Ranulf sometimes doesn't double enemies. He fails to double Tigers, Cats, Swordmasters, some Paladins, Hawks, Ravens, etc. And then Mordecai wins offense again. So Ranulf wins offense against the few enemies he doubles that Mordecai doesn't, while Mordecai wins against the majority of the enemies. Offense + Durability + Supports > Nothing

This is on chapter 23. Just when the game starts getting serious.

Hm? The game's been serious from as early on as the Prologue, so the game started getting serious more than 20 chapters ago -_-

Actually, just by being able to damage stuff, he gains experience. Idk you, but to train units, I make all units that can damage an enemy attack before actually killing it with a stronger unit, even if the stronger unit can kill the enemy in the first place. Because that lil bit of experience eventually will build up in a level. (I write this paragraph with the risk of being misunderstood. This strategy is an oversimplification because most of the time enemies aren't on their own, and you'll need those other units. But you should get the point).

Whatever, only being able to deal pitiful damage is good in no way, even though it grants EXP. Everyone can damage an enemy before killing it off with another unit. Besides, killing a unit using only one move is far better than using two moves.

You misunderstood what I said. I didn't meant it as a general fact, I mean in this specific situation.

Which defenitely isn't true, as I've stated and proved multiple times already.

Here we're debating Mordecai and Rolf. I just have to prove that Rolf is better than Mordecai, not better than other units.

True, but being the worst unit on the team defenitely is the worst negative you can think of. You still use a team of a certain amount of units, and it sucks hard to be the worst by far in that team. It's about who helps you beat chapters more efficiently, and especially in their early chapters, that's Mordecai since he isn't the worst unit on the team and probably has the best offense and durability of all units. Or in other words, he's actually the best unit on our team, while Rolf is the worst. roflmao

Geoffrey, Boyd and Astrid aren't locked to bows. As for specifics: don't make me laugh, Geoffrey already has Brave Lance for x4 attacks and, Boyd will never reach B-level bow unless you use both arms scrolls and even then you'd have to bow abuse him and Astrid... well, she has other weapons. I really can't say much else. Killer bows with Rolf are only if you desperately need that critical, because of his high base critical.

No, but they can use it.

Many units can use the Brave Lance. Geoffrey isn't entitled to it more than any other unit who can use it.

Boyd can reach B in bows, since he promotes rather early and there are many Wyverns/Bird Laguz/Pegasi later in the game against which those bows are very useful.

Astrid has other weapons, yes, but she can also use the Brave Bow for tons of utility.

His CRT even with a Killer Bow is somewhere around 50 endgame, which still isn't very spectacular. 70 or 80 CRT is spectacular, but 50 defenitely isn't (though obviously 50 CRT > 20 CRT), but then there are only very few Killer Bows and others might want to use it as well for that extra bit of CRT, or a higher chance of pulling off a CRT (due to either Adept or some other multi-hitting skill or something).

Again, we're debating Rolf and Mordecai.

You brought it up yourself.

Okay, point taken. However, Mordecai's durability is incredibly crippled by fire magic, and there're a fairly decent amount of mages in the game that use fire magic. On the later chapters, Rolf can easily one round mages. This is a plus to Rolf.

Mordecai can one-round them as well. Lv3 Bolganone Sages have 9 AS, so Mordecai doubles and kills them. Lv12 Mordecai has 14 RES against their 22 (29) ATK, so he takes 15/56 damage, while a 20/5 Rolf would take 12/35 damage, so Mordecai's durability is better even if he is at a disadvantage.

Okay. Let's play that way. Smite is useful to move characters. The triangle attack is much more useful due to being able to do damage (usually kill stuff) and being very adaptable (different weapons used, Boyd's ridiculously high Str, etc)

If Oscar, Boyd and Rolf all three are capable of killing something (which might be the case sometimes), then why the hell would you waste three moves to kill only one enemy, while you could've killed three enemies with the same amount of moves?

Smite isn't used to kill enemies, so when Mordecai can't reach an enemy, he can at least utilize his skill to allow other units to reach enemy units or allied units faster, which is a benefit towards the team (although a small one).

Everything I didn't counter was based on your Ranulf argument, though there's another argument I'll use against that: It's Mordecai vs. Rolf, not Mordecai vs. Ranulf, according to your logic, so Mordecai simply has that Demi Band.

Sorry for the long wait.

[Mekkah]

Voting Legault, since Rolf is better.

Not really. Tino had a grotesque unit advantage, and made use of it. Legault´s arguments seemed mostly based on misconceptions (or bullshit) and Tino rebuked pretty much all of them.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Mekkah

[Swordsalmon]

Tino did far better with supports, utility, and Mordecai's other leads. Of course, this debate was far into Tino's favour what characters were debated.

[Tino]

I didn't intend to have such an advantage with characters, and I also thought we had decided on Mordecai vs. Astrid, but he posted a Mordecai vs. Rolf opener, so we just continued the debate like that.

[Legault]

I could have sworn that you said "let's debate Rolf vs Mordecai". It must be somewhere in the debate challenge thread. I only accepted because personal experience taught me that Rolf>Mordecai. Of course, I only made that comparison once....

Well, for a first debate I won't compain.

[Tino]

Me: How about Mordecai (me) vs. Astrid (you)?

You: Okay, I'll do it.

I first challenged you to a Sothe vs. Rolf debate, but since that had been done before and because the one with Sothe would have an easier time, we decided on Mordecai vs. Astrid.