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my bad I was just thinking like 'who the fuck is PK' and then then I realized that's Via wrt my last post, I meant that it looks like Prims was just wagoning to add pressure, not weapons 9/4 is dumb so I guess there is an ITP??? 9/3/1 seems dumb too though. 9/2/2? idk any 13p setup with only 9 town is pretty wonky. i don't think there's a conflict between this role and mine though. they give two different types of information. eury I understand that those things COULD happen and that misreading can lead to bad things. but where is the evidence that I'm purposely misreading to let those things happen or SEEKING to misread, like you claim, as opposed to just making mistakes? you're just assuming that I'm doing this to create chaos or whatever. you say that you don't buy that it's a mistake but why not? wrt my prims reasoning- what prims did is scummy because... wagoning people for bad reasons is scummy??? if arcanite is town it's him pushing for a ml on a newbie? do I really need to explain this so much? don't think it says much about weapons's alignment. and how are my votes lazy? now you're just making things up. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Eury more confident in this than prims now, since the prims stuff happened a while back now. she's focusing in on sections of peoples posts and questioning them about stuff in isolation rather than looking at things as a whole or looking at context. the misreading thing is the biggest example, but also, she's pushing me for coasting regarding arcanite- whatever you want to say about my reads being bad, it's pretty hard to look at my play as a whole and say that I'm coasting. and at the time of that exchange, only about 5 people had posted something serious and arcanite had given an opinion on all of them. refa had only one read? so what, it was page 2. how many reads do you expect him to have at that point? also a lot of her posts have questions to which the answers are just exceedingly obvious or have already been directly stated. it reads like asking questions for the sake of it to produce content. refa was literally voting arcanite, of course he thinks arcanite's vote was scummy. and how does the wagon on refa have anything to do with his read on arcanite?

weapons, there are 4 other people voting for prims and nobody is voting him for the same reason afaics. which ones specifically do you agree with? @refa- i mean like, here it reads like he's just jumping on the wagon to add pressure.

i get that he said it's not that strong which is fine cuz just out of RVS. I guess I've been making it seem through my wording like this is SUPER STRONG, which I didn't mean to do. but I just don't see how, regardless of what he says, the arcanite stuff is stronger? his initial arcanite case wasn't good, why is posting filler in RVS scummy? and he didn't actually even vote arcanite for it until other people did. it just reads like trying to start a wagon, and this is where the meta comes in- prims hasn't done it as town in the past. i didn't really like your vote on arcanite but at least I could see the scum motivation that you're accusing arcanite of in your vote? wrt arcanite waffling it feels like they take stances but they just have so much stuff being unsure about it. like wrt me he thinks I'm town but there are lines like: just feels like too many words it's fair that there wasn't necessarily anything to cheerlead but it's just like really incongruous. if he doesn't think you're scum why is he focusing all his posts on flaws in your play? at best it's filler if he didn't find you scummy. but idk what did you think while he was questioning you? i guess that's fair wrt arcanite that shinori didn't presume you were a liar so much as just talk about how your vote was bad. i do agree that this makes arcanite's vote more static, but the read as a whole can still evolve bc he can evaluate other parts of your play and that can outweigh that initial vote or add to it. that's what confuses me wrt your unvote- arcanite essentially doubled down on the static-ness of his initial read on you by not adding anything to it but you still unvoted?

This is stronger than his arcanite vote.and he didnt even vote arcanite u til after you and via did

weapons vote was grounded in scum intent and had meta backings for how scum Weapons plays; arcanite case was a combo of "why post filler?" (in RVS) and gut. no idea how you think it's stronger than the weapons vote.

arcanite's last couple posts feel a bit padded cuz they waffle a lot. it also feels like a majority of their content is asking questions and unlike say Eury's questions I'm not exactly sure how several of those questions are related to peoples alignments. also arcanite what do you think of Refa's other content that he posted that's not related to you? i think the misread thing was valid to bring up when you first voted bc that was a large part of refa's content but he's posted other stuff since then related to me and weapons and it feels like you're just doubling down on the misread thing without looking at that stuff. omega, i'm very confused you talk about how prims is scummy for aforementioned reasons but I can't actually find those reasons anywhere??? is it just the stuff that Shinori and I said? anyways my last couple posts have been all over the place bc I was talking about stuff out of order but it's still prims > eury, for me beyond that it's just a hodgepodge of minor suspicions on refa, shinori, bard, and arcanite.

read shinori's posts again from that time; he said that refa's posts were the scummiest thing in the thread but that he didn't think Refa was scummy.

back home for 30 mins, time to use that time to play mafia instead of eat lunch wifom stuff is fair I guess. the rest is dumb. i never said I didn't misread??? and if I HAD said I didn't misread then how could I be flaunting my misreading? my point is just that misreading is not alignment indicative unless you think I'm specifically misreading to push a scum agenda and eury didn't provide any evidence of me doing so. when I pressed her on it she just said "yeah but you could" hoo boy you're about to get acquainted to playing with shinori dislike the first half of this arcanite bit. they had 3 posts. 1 was RVS and 2 were content. they're new of course they're going to be skittish. they wanted to vote refa; imo talking about other peoples cases on refa while doing so is a good thing, not a bad thing. second half is fair regarding PoE and his part about me. idk if this is scummy but i just really dislike how this is phrased, not because you're saying that the wagon is dumb but then not looking at it, but because you're saying that you're not going to look at it, except 2/3 of your suspicious (Shinori, me, arcanite) are voting Refa, and your suspicions on them are directly based on their actions towards refa. so you ARE giving refa's wagon a lot of attention. missed this post while phonereading sorry all the WALLS caught my eye instead. I think I answered about the waffling though.

Tbh I misread weapons's vote on refa too fuck me more fuel for the misread case. Sorry guys it feela like I'm reading people's cases and seeing in them what I found suspicious with the person they're voting rather than what their case actually was. I thought weapons was saying the inconsistency was bad bc refa pretended it was one thing and then made it out to be the other thing. Refa did this later with the arcanite vote. But really weapons is just saying it's suspicious bc he thought it was going to be one thing and then it turned out to be the other and that's a dumb vote. Also wrt shinori there's scum benefit in pushing someone heavily while saying they're not scummy bc you're cheerleading a wagon w/o tying yourself to it. But then he did later anyways I guess. Also Arcanite's vote against you is part of their reaction to the pressure against them. And idk like you voted them on a misread, said you were wrong, but then kept voting them for a reason you hadn't brought up before. Imo this is a more suspicious form of misreading than anything I've done bc you justified a vote on it and then stuck with it even when that justification was shown to be untrue. It's also not very different from shinori's vote and you think that's fine?

Phoneposting so I can't do the quotestrippy thing and also will talk about the posts in more detail when i get home Firstly @refa i don't really understand your problems about my shinori/refa vote. I don't know why you're classifying my shinori case as voting for misplays rather than scumplay. Why do you think rhat is? Also meta isn't the core of my prims vote, like I clarified to eury but you probably didnt read that. It's that he dropped a strong vote to wagon a newbie for a weak vote. I'm annoyed that people are making it out like I'm saying it's good that I misread stuff. I know it's not a good thing. It's jist not a scummy thing and eury didn't go to any effort to show why it was a scummy thing for me to do, rather than just auto saying it's scummy

reading again it seems that this is what you mean. firstly I'm going to dispute what you said about being totally useless. mafia having a daykill is strong! means a town info role could die the end of the phase during which they claim without getting docced at night. notifying town of this is something useful. it's still a very weak role, but there are lots of weak roles that exist, particularly in role madness games where you need to give something to everybody. town safeguard is basically useless and should be idled every night except in very niche applications and yet it gets put in role madness games all the time. you've talked a lot about how I could make this claim as scum. but why would I? what does it gain me? if I'm totally BSing, eventually people will get suspicious of there never being a daykill. And if I'm basing this fake off a scum role, why would I give up the element of surprise?

??? maybe I'm misreading your posts as well. but posts like this imply to me that you think the risk of me faking informed is low: but all your posts then imply that i'm BSing and that my role is useless. i don't understand what you're trying to say. do you mean that the risk to me if I'm scum of faking informed is low? people misread posts all the time; I have no idea what you're talking about. and not that it necessarily makes me town, but... there is literally a meme in the mafia community about me specifically having shitty reading skills. plus it's not like I'm persisting with my misreads; I've admitted when I made a mistake and took what I said back. in the case with Via, I then said myself what I thought Via was saying for me, so I didn't use that to make up a point against Shinori. the bit about me misreading weapons was also not related to me pushing a case on anybody. the only thing that fits your narrative, even if I were scum trying to misrep and twist things around, was the bit about Refa joking wrt his comment about my role. I really dislike this point because it feels like you're just saying me misreading is scummy and that I COULD use it to push cases and skew things towards my PoV/goal without actually looking to see if that's what I'm doing, and you're presuming a guilty motivation on my part. waffling isn't the same as coasting, so I'm glad we've cleared up that I wasn't waffling. i didn't have any questions to ask them at that time. it's not like I could have asked the questions you asked arcanite for example. shinori is aggressive in that he yells at people a lot. this isn't the same thing as him questioning people about things that aren't a very big deal, at least as I saw it at the time. I also want to remind you that given some misreads, this point is not as strong as I originally thought. that's why I unvoted. also I realize I didn't answer your prims question from earlier- prims is suspicious because he dropped (imo) a stronger vote for a weaker vote to wagon someone. the meta makes it stronger because it means that one of the possible town reasons for doing this doesn't apply to him. what do you think about my prims vote?

oh I guess that takes care of who Eury finds suspicious. eury in the future if you're going to break apart your walls into 5 posts, give your reads up front or vote your scummiest read while talking about them if I have no reason to fake my claim, why am I scum? feels very weird that you talk about my claim in relation to other people's posts about it, but don't talk about it directly or in relation to my alignment. what's the evidence that I'm purposely misrepping people for the purposes of pushing a case, as opposed to just being derpy? you just say that it feels like it is, but why?

"zero real information" cool wallposts eury. I hope shinori appreciated the clacks. who's scum? you're taking shots at basically everyone except Shinori but not voting anyone or specifically saying someone is scummy. also you don't directly talk about my claim but I'm inferring from your questions to other people that you don't think there's any reason for me to fake being informed. yet you also think that my role is "completely garbage" and gives "zero real information". this seems incongruous. not common; 14p is generally the minimum for games with both ITPs and a scumteam. smaller games with ITPs generally feature them as the main anti-town parties, like PiG. I didn't want to give arcanite talking points to defend himself by pointing out the bad things about the votes on him. Shinori said and I more or less agree that Arcanite's defence against Refa is basically a wordier version of Shinori's own vote on Refa. wanted to avoid that. am I scummy for this? me misreading via's post is also a weird instance of my misreading to make this point about considering I wasn't twisting via's words to find him suspicious. the rest of my post literally answers the questions in this first line??? I found Prims's vote suspicious. found Refa's a bit bad but not overly so. want more clarification on via's vote. didn't find Arcanite's reaction telling. They'd more or less given thoughts on everyone at the end of their previous post. I didn't have anything to ask them. idk i'll probably just get a better feel as more stuff happens that's not related to them and they give opinions about those things. i feel like they're going to get naturally defensive about stuff related to them and it won't be as useful. but reading new players is hard because there's no baseline play to compare to. also not sure what part of my bit on arcanite is waffly. i'm just complaining and saying their posts so far have been null. i guess I found refa a bit more suspicious? but more for what weapons said than what shinori was saying. i also wasn't townreading Refa. i just found Shinori rapid-fire blasting him with questions about fairly standard stuff unnerving. he is right in that his questions did get Refa to have some follow-up responses that I didn't like as much though.

lazy isn't the right word. disinterested/aloof, maybe?

weapons what do you think of prims's vote against you? your vote is good imo. tbh though more than any of Refa's specific posts or votes what kind of bothers me is just that his play/tone feels a bit lazy.

1. yeah my bad idk why I said that it was a joke. that being said I still don't understand what you were looking for from him given that you really want him to be looking for a specific reaction. people just ask questions looking for stuff in RVS. that's what you're doing too but you were doing so aggressively that it bothers me. you keep talking about how you're not sure what refa was trying to do- I'm not sure what you're trying to do. 3. again you can look for a reaction without having a specific reaction in mind. it just seems like you're really attacking him for the sake of attacking him. you asked him like 5 questions about the arcanite vote!!! 4. i don't disagree with your initial pressing and saying that refa's initial vote was bad. it's the post I quoted where you're just asking him like 5 questions that makes me uncomfortable. and even then I said that those questions were more okay than the initial ones about his vote on me. 5. yeah ok I've clearly misread a bunch of posts. i'm still not really sure why you find the weapons unvote suspicious if you like his arcanite vote though? i think these two things go together. him unvoting weapons is only really suspicious imo if you think that his arcanite vote is worse. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Prims see what I just said above. I think rereading his Weapons vote it's stronger than the Arcanite one so it feels like he's just wagoning onto Arcanite for the sake of wagoning? I think that generally speaking putting pressure and creating wagons just out of RVS is the right thing to do, to get stuff going and create more insightful reactions. However I feel like doing it on newbies is kind of unfair because they're probably going to react badly. Also Prims hasn't done this much as town in the past. I remember because I've specifically voted him out of RVS for not purposely making wagons for reactions before and he was town. still a bit uncomfortable with Shinori just because his play seems overly aggressive. but I did misread a bunch of stuff and I think this Prims vote is stronger.

1. idk it didn't really feel to me like he was attacking me or insinuating I was scum so much as just making a joke. to me it feels like your first few posts against Refa are a lot closer to what you're accusing Refa of because your questions are a lot more attacking and you directly say it's scummy but you don't vote until after his arcanite vote. 2. okay I guess 3. stuff like these: the questions in the first vote, like... it's RVS man, people just post stuff trying to get reactions bc there's nothing else to do; nobody goes into it looking for some specific type of reaction. questions in the second quote are better because the answers are not as obvious but I still feel like it's just throwing stuff at him. 4. it bothers me a bit that he realized his initial vote was a misread and then he spun it into something else. but that something else is also a plausible reason for a vote even if I don't think it'll be a fruitful one. 5. why is prims's switch off weapons more suspicious to you? i didn't even realize his weapons vote was serious. agree about via's vote but just would like a bit more clarification from him. 6. gives you 6 hours for mafia

anyways arcanite's response to the pressure against them wasn't good but neither were the votes against them. i'm not really sure why you're voting them via? is it just because of what prims said? refa's vote is nitpicky but eh I can see it as town misreading a bit and thinking they caught some kind of slip. i feel like prims's vote here is the worst just because I don't really know what he's going for? arcanite's post talking about my claim IS kind of filler but like... so what? it's RVS. it also bothers me a bit that he didn't vote for it until after refa did. given that this is only arcanite's second game I think I don't really think a poor response to pressure is alignment indicative. i'm a bit frustrated that they're getting run up early actually because now the majority of their d1 is going to be about the initial votes against them and their initial response and so forth and i feel like it's going to be hard to get a grasp on his alignment from that

you made like 4 posts attacking Refa for his questions towards me and subsequent responses??? i purposely didn't talk about the arcanite stuff cuz I was waiting for him to post before commenting on the cases against him or your defence of him. and yes, you didn't actually vote Refa until the arcanite stuff but I felt that all your other posts attacking him seemed to be the major reason. i also disliked that you kept saying that Refa's stuff about me was the scummiest thing in the thread to date, but didn't vote him because apparently it wasn't something scum!Refa would do? why not? and if that's the case then why did you end up just voting him anyways for the arcanite thing? why is that more suspicious or more indicative of scum!Refa? rereading Via's vote it doesn't actually quite say what I thought it said. but essentially what I thought it said was that your questions just seem super over the top and trying to make something out of nothing. like they don't seem to be geared towards trying to understand his mindset like you claim so much as just to bombard him. i think this is also the case with your follow-up questions to his response about his arcanite vote. fwiw though I did agree with your initial assessment of Refa's arcanite vote as being nitpicky. do you find Prims/Via's vote on arcanite suspicious or just Refa's? i know they didn't vote until after your refa vote but you haven't really talked about their arcanite votes at all. my other thoughts about arcanite next post

my vote is already on Shinori but to signify it's not RVS anymore ##Unvote, ##Vote: Shinori I agree with Via's vote. To add on, I don't like that he basically is just attacking Refa for asking me a bunch of questions and trying to see what my reaction is. What else was Refa supposed to do other than talk about stuff? Arcanite is viewing the thread so I'll let him respond before commenting on the votes against him. but Prims to clarify are you voting him due to what you initially said or are you sheeping Refa (or both)?

i agree; wish I could screenshot me telling iris that my role blows it doesn't specify but it's a 13p game so I wouldn't expect an ITP

the wording is kind of vague and SB wouldn't specify more so I don't know any of those things. my guess is that if it's not factional it would be a 1x thing. if it is factional i'm guessing based on the wording that they can choose to do it during either the day or night but not both. this seems kind of wonky though so I would expect it to be the former. dunno about the day phase but highly doubt it would be usable in *ylo, especially if it's on top of the factional kill.

anyways I'm an informed townie; was just waiting for some wording confirmation from SB. scum have some sort of kill that takes effect at the end of the day phase. guessing it's not every day though cuz that would be dumb.

wow shinori said that at least twice in his last game and he was scum there too :thinking: