[The Pairing Thread]

I'm sorry could you please clarify what you mean? I'm a little confused.

I believe what he means is:

Stahl as Sniper, Sully as whatever you prefer (presumably BK or WL, as high-Mov strong classes), with Sully leading and having Deliverer. Gets you a very high-Mov unit when Sully leads, with the option of switching to Stahl and sniping when you have them in a good position.

[The Pairing Thread]

Probably Assassin. For Apo, I don't think it matters as long as she's got All+2.

You're correct. Cordelia @ FK gives a base speed of 46. +10 LB, +10 rallies, +2 tonic, +3 base support gives a total of +25, putting her at 71. DF gives a further +3 Spd at S support (total: 74), and All+2 gets you past the post. Assassin actually gives substantial overkill (+6 class support, putting her at 77 Spd), but removes the need for All+2. I'd call the two a tossup; you "waste" points on unnecessary Spd and lose out on a bit of Str/Mag, but you get an extra skill slot. *shrug*

Also: good to see you're still alive and kicking!

[The Pairing Thread]

The only viable 3 range weapons are the long and double bow (which is also why Snipers are so fantastic). That's because they can proc skills and dual strikes. And on the chance you have enough Spd, they can also double enemies. Mire sounds really good in a vacuum, but its plink damage is negligible relative to the 3 range bows.

edit: and it's not like Sage is the end all say all vs Sorc. Sure it's definitely a downgrade in pretty much everything (lower mag, skl, spd, and worse pair up boosts), but look at the differences.

Sage has +2 Mag, +5 Skl, +2 Spd in caps and +1 Mag, +4 Skl in pair up.

Sure, you get waste. But waste isn't exactly that great either. It's got way less hit (~35 on equal forge) and not effective against the fliers. A waste Sorc will do ~2 damage per swing more than a celica's Sage. Is that worth the hit rate that might need some extra cushion? Not shredding the fliers? ~2% DS? Not really.

But if you look at those numbers... the not really isn't saying much. At the end of the day, those numbers are low, single digits. LB alone will shatter any of those numbers by far. If you really wanted to off looks, don't feel like it will define how well your team will be.

While that is all true, there's also the flipside: LB can be a necessity, not a luxury--nothing but GF is better, and GF isn't available to everyone. Breaking speed caps in Apo really can mean that a difference of two Spd matters--it's the reason All+2 is still a useful skill despite the existence of LB, it's just more niche. Or perhaps you have "five skill slot syndrome," to borrow a term from the Pokemon meta. Being able to skip All+2 in favor of Anathema, or VVW, or some other combo can be quite valuable. Heck, even getting the ability to grab Quick Burn, Lucky Seven, or Hit+20 can be a Big Deal.

A small difference in raw value, whether relative or absolute, is only small when it doesn't create knock-on effects. Sage is good; you make small sacrifices to play a Sorc, and that can be a perfectly valid choice. But if small sacrifices create a sudden shift in results, it may not be as valid.

[The Pairing Thread]

yeah i already put galeforce on her for inigo. now just trying to see if she should seal directly back to dancer, or pick up some other skills first.

the usefulness of pass is probably going to be very situational, but the fact that it's obtainable at all alone makes it tempting. swordfaire is like - she's not being used as an offensive unit, but at the end of the day she does wield a sword and there aren't many other skills i can think of.

Beyond the said GF-for-Inigo, I don't think Dancer Olivia needs anything. Swordfaire is nice mostly because of her weak Str/Mag, as Dancer's cap is painfully low in both (30). More or less, the question is: Do you think you can both (a) keep her out of any tight spots where she has to hold her own for a round before getting rescued, whether by staff or by reinforcements, and (b) never need her to kill something herself to proc Galeforce? If you think you can do both, then Swordfaire, Astra, Pass, etc. have no benefit.

If, however, you do want Olivia occasionally killing something herself, or able to take the heat for a round to set up better positioning on the next or something, then it's worth grabbing those extra skills. Pass is most useful if you expect Olivia to need to infiltrate enemy lines to dance, since you can probably Rescue her out of any bad spots. If you don't think that will be a problem, it might be better to go Swordfaire and Astra, for the extra killing potential when she does attack things.

Edit: On reflection, you basically have three paths (with the third being the combo of the previous two). Swordmaster gives two useful skills for killing potential and pays (almost) immediate dividends since you get one of those skills at 5. Assassin gives a single skill that's more clearly useful to the Dancer, since getting into or out of clusters of enemies is a useful thing, but you get a trash skill (Lethality being useless in Apo). Doing both gives you your pick of the three skills, and the option to swap to Lethality outside of Apo, but if you're sick of grinding, I can totally understand why that would not be an attractive option.

It definitely seems, to me, that you should do at least one of these, simply to get Olivia's stats up so she's not total tissue paper. Unless you're totally confident in your ability to keep her safe, of course.

[The Pairing Thread]

What skills should I pass down for the following children

Stahl!Gerome

Gaius!Noire

and Maribelle!Lucina!Morgan

I'm think of giving Morgan despoil (so I don't have to spend as much time on Golden Gaffe) simply because she's going to end up either DF or Sorcerer. Not sure about the other two children yet.

Gerome: DSup+ is your natural choice from Cherche, as that's the only valuable skill she gets that he can't. Stahl can pass anything you like, but Dual Guard+ and Discipline are both good choices to speed up levelling.

Gaius!Noire: Sol and Counter are your main choices. If you don't care about Apo, Counter can be marginally useful, otherwise Sol is the clear winner.

Mari!Luci!Morgan: Despoil is definitely an option, esp. if you hate grinding for cash. However, especially if you plan to go Sorcerer, a better long-term plan might be Wrath, taking advantage of the VVW combo. Not required, but if you definitely don't care about Axefaire, Wrath is probably the next-most-valuable skill from a pure numbers standpoint.

It is probably better for Morgan to be the child of a second gen unit than Priam because more than likely the child character is going to have much better mods than Priam has which in turn will lead to a better Morgan. Depending of course on your avatar's asset and flaw of course. I did a test assuming a strength asset so take what I am saying with a grain of salt. Also I used Vaike because Radiant Head didn't have him listed as taken for this test on Gerome. I then compared Priam!Morgan to Vaike!Gerome!Morgan and the strength cap was in the double digits for Vaike!Gerome!Morgan. Plus Gerome is available much sooner than Priam which makes Morgan much easier to get/use. I then did a magic asset Ricken!Owain!Morgan and got a +9 cap for magic, but that was more out of curiousity than anything else.

Yeah, Priam has decent modifiers for a first-gen Str unit (3,-2,1,0,0,2,-2); the 0 Spd/2 Def is meh, but not bad. The thing is, though, if you use Vaike!Gerome, you get (effectively) the child of Vaike, Cherche, and the Avatar, plus the usual +1 to all stats for being a child (note that this part is NOT doubled for being a "3rd gen" unit). So Vaike!Gerome!Morgan, if you have a +Str Avatar, is by far the highest Str cap you can get: 3+3+4+1 = 11 Str, which is borderline ridiculous. You can get something similar for (say) Spd by doing Lon'qu!Yarne!Morgan with a +Spd asset, getting an 11 Spd cap (though this may be wasteful in the end).

By the way, if you want to play around with numbers for modifiers and such on child characters, just go to here: http://serenesforest.net/awakening/characters/maximum-stats/complete/ It's a calculator with full modifier values for all characters. Lets you clearly see exactly what you get for any given (valid) combo of characters. That way, you don't have to brute force the stuff!

I tend to lean towards two "Morgans" than a Cynthia with aether for a few reasons, some of which might not apply so please take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

1. Lucina gets all of the skills she needs and more. Mostly Robin's main selling point is that she gives Lucina all gender permitting classes. Including Tactician, dark mage and mercenary (for Ignus shenanigans which my Lucina is very good at activating, more so than aether which I found to be uneccessary for my runs despite what it does) which none of Lucina's potential mothers can give (although Cordelia would have been able to give the latter two but that's with hacking)

2. Chrom!Cynthia is a real idiot in a story sense. Anyone with half a brain in their head knows what I mean here and it doesn't help Cynthia's character

3. Lucina/Morgan shenanigans are still just as game breaking even without the S-Supoort. To my knowledge and having experence with several runs with the pair as siblings I can make a fairly accurate call here.

4. I don't like Cythia with blue hair. (Purely on asethics for this reason so anyone can disagree on that but this is a deal breaker for me)

5. Lucina's lines have more impact and meaning in a story sense to me with Robin as Lucina's mother. (I read the script for all of Lucina's potential mothers and Robin's impacted me more)

6. Lucina can gain better mods from the avatar than Sumia. I tested that. With each potential flaw and asset applied. Including my more common choices. (I still haven't worked out Sumia's flaw just yet, but even with a -skl avatar with +spd gives Lucina a 1 point advantage over Sumia!Lucina)

They're just a few of the reasons. I didn't want want to make the post too long.

Yeah, Chrom!Cynthia comes across a little....yeah. She means well. I sort of get the feeling that she was one of the youngest of the children, young enough that she doesn't really remember her parents at all, and that this may have been compounded by arriving relatively "late" compared to the rest of the kids. (See, for example, how Lucina was originally the oldest of the children by multiple years, but Laurent surpasses her because he arrived 2-3 years before she did and has thus been waiting around for like five years.) If she had only arrived a couple of weeks prior, for example, she may now be five years or more younger than Lucina or Laurent. We also don't know precisely how the time-travel process works; it seems to have given Morgan permanent amnesia, so it's possible that it messed with Cynthia's head as well.

Your first reason is absolutely why I love FeMU!Lucina. I already think Lucina is a fantastic character narratively, so making her literally the best, most versatile unit in the army is wonderful. (If more authors would write awesome female characters like her, I would be 110% in favor of that.) I do quite like Ignis on her, as well. Part of the reason you see it proc more often is that it uses Skl% instead of (Skl/2)% like Aether does--Aether happens half as often but is twice the boost so it evens out.

Honestly, the difference between S and A rank supports really isn't particularly dramatic: 5% hit rate. Doesn't even affect the pair-up stat bonuses because those improve at A rank but not S. It matters more if you get DSup+ in there, which doubles support value; going from 8 support ranks to 10 is a difference of 5% hit and 5% avo. Obviously, if you can get the bigger bonus you should, but it's small time stuff for optimization purposes. (Of course, "small time" can still matter in Apo, especially if one is making other sub-optimal choices, but this is not the end of the world.)

You can check Sumia's mods on the "Complete" stats link from above. They are: -2, 0, 2, 3, 0, -2, 1. The Avatar is the only character, AFAICT, who can get a +4 to any attribute, and I don't think the other characters neatly fall into categories of "asset" and "flaw" the way the Avatar does. The closest you can get to matching Sumia's mods is +Spd/-Mag or -Res, but even those don't line up for anything but Spd and Skl (both have approximately the same root mean square difference--1.89 vs. 2.03, meaning both are just about "two points off" on average from each stat, which is a crappy fit).

[The Pairing Thread]

well in my experience, the only thing lucina needs that she's not getting from chrom is gaeforce, so i don't need her as a second morgan. cynthia having aether to me is way more valuable than morgan with rightful king. also lucina being able to s-support with morgan is hilariously game breaking.

Well sure. Lord+Archer+Cavalier is a great kit all by itself, GF just lets you make the most of it. Add in that you get either Sage or Myrmidon from the three non-Avatar GF moms, and you have a strong, versatile Lucina pretty much no matter what you do. And Chrom/Sumia is a common choice for good reasons, not simply because they have few spouse options; the fact that Cynthia gets Aether is among those reasons.

I agree that it's not necessary to have Lucina as a second Morgan. The comment was technically made a little obliquely; I was more commenting on the use of FeMU x Priam, which doesn't give two Morgans. But since only Chrom can give you two Morgans with a female Avatar, it's kind of the only path if you prefer playing a female. And if you aren't going to go for two Morgans with a female Avatar, you almost certainly should go for marrying one of the male children to accrue more mods.

[The Pairing Thread]

Yeah that part sucks, but I'm breezing through the main game and focusing more on post-game dlc's, especially apo

Also prefer having two aether kids

Two Aether kids is nice, but I rather like having two Morgans, myself. I actually quite like both MaMU/Lucina and FeMU/Chrom narratively; the latter's supports are stupid, but the scripted conversations more than make up for it.

Another sort of "cost," though I use those quotes very intentionally, of going FeMU/Priam is that you can't really use the Avatar to support any male units. It's not really a very high cost, but it's an additional thing to keep track of.

[The Pairing Thread]

I've done FeMU x Priam on my main save file and I have no regrets! All I can say is that Priam!Morgan is fucking awesome and that is coming from an Ike fan. So say what you like about it because that's not gonna stop me from using Priam and his son. <_<

Well, I was actually talking about the flaws of Gerome, not Priam or Priam!Morgan. So you can use them all you like!

[The Pairing Thread]

yeah I thought about benching him, was just hoping there was a way to not do that without messing another pair. Might just use Fred and get something aesthetically good.

Well, how would you use him? No S-support, making his DSup+ inheritance worth far less (but can still be useful). FeMU's with Priam, so Gerome's only A-ranks are his parents, both worse at supporting and leading. I just don't see the goal of using him. No good ideas arise; most waste even Bench!Gerome's small potential, or ignore better Spot/DLC chars (Rallybots). As said above, Libra!Gerome Nostanking works for non-Apo; dunno about Fred; Stahl!Gerome has Sniper, might be useful in Apo? What role(s) do you see, Apo or not, for unmarried Gerome? What warrants bringing him? You only get 20 spots for Apo, after all, and 16 already spoken for (12 kids+Chrom/Sumia+FeMU/Priam). Every unit counts--needs to count.

[The Pairing Thread]

going to start this for the first time in months

Chrom x Sumia

Sumia x Chrom

Lissa x Ricken

Olivia x Stahl/Fred

Maribelle x Henry

Sully x Donnel

Cordelia x Lon’qu

Tharja x Gaius

MU x Priam

Kind of stuck after that. Gerome already lost his only ideal father, because I need Henry for muh War Monk Brady. Virion is the next best thing, but then Yarne wants him and will take much better advantage of Hit+20. Then there's Gregor, but Laurent takes better advantage of that.

Have you considered just benching him? You have an extra boy in the 2nd gen, with Priam!Morgan. If Gerome's out of good dads, you may as well ignore him and focus on other things.

From there, it looks like your unassigned mothers are Nowi, Miriel, and Panne...and you've clearly already got Panne x Virion and Miriel x Gregor effectively locked in. If you do bench Gerome, Nowi x Vaike is your clear choice for your one missing child. Then, for Gerome, that gives you Libra, Kellam, and whoever isn't Inigo's dad for your choices; Libra isn't a bad choice for non-Apo stuff since that lets Gerome go Nostank. Fred and Stahl both make a Str-oriented Gerome, naturally, though Stahl is slightly better (passing down Archer). Kellam is really only there if you're just super committed to Gerome having a nice, comfortable bench seat.

[The Pairing Thread]

For Cherche, if it's between Vaike and Kellam, choose Vaike! Kellam has really bad mods and nothing special to give to Gerome.

Seconded. Kellam gives a lot of Defense, which isn't really useful for anything (Apo or not), on top of a Spd penalty, which again is hurtful whether or not you're wanting to do Apo. Kellam!Gerome picks up the Thief and Knight lines, which really only means he gets Assassin and Great Knight out of the deal, and only the former is worth actually sticking to (GK gives Luna, but Gerome is best used in the back where proc skills don't matter).

Conversely, Vaike!Gerome gets all sorts of nice things. 2 more Strength (highest Str he can get), the Barbarian class line (so he can Zerker support, which is the best there is), a net +3 Spd (Kellam = -2, Vaike = +1), and any reduced stats are in things that won't matter for the physically-inclined, in-the-back Gerome (he can't get hit there, so Def/Res do literally nothing, and as a Zerker he doesn't care if his Mag drops). You even keep the Thief line, so you still have Lucky Seven (an acceptable substitute for Hit+20, if every fight is 7 turns or less).

Vaike!Gerome basically wins over Kellam!Gerome in every mechanical way. Better stats, better skills, better classes. In fact, Vaike is probably one of the best fathers Gerome can get; Gregor and Henry are also really good, but Gregor is usually better used elsewhere (e.g. Laurent), and Henry is often needed if Sumia doesn't marry Chrom (as you, TheSilentChloey, have already done.)

[The Pairing Thread]

Ah, beg pardons. For your list there: Virion!Yarne, LQ!Severa, Stahl!Nah, and Gregor!Laurent are almost certainly your best choices, though you could very easily swap to Gregor!Nah and Stahl!Laurent and still do well. They give similar classes and similar stats (Gregor gives 1 more Skl), though Gregor!Nah can get Axefaire which might make running Hero a worthwhile choice. I don't think I know enough about the game to really recommend which to choose, so listen to whatever other advice you get.

Inigo, by being a galeboy, is the stronger choice as an active character, naturally. However, if you can get a Gerome that has Berserker (sadly, you can't get both Berserker and Archer), he's an acceptable supporter; this requires Henry, Gregor, or Vaike. Inigo is better even as a support, though, simply because he already has Barbarian, and can thus pick up Archer from any of several fathers (Virion, Stahl, Chrom, Ricken), and some of them make him good for Sage support as well (Virion and, especially, Ricken). Inigo just has a really solid, versatile kit that many fathers can enhance easily. It's hard to go wrong with Inigo, which makes not using him probably the only "wrong" thing you can do, but you could still survive it.

As I've said before, building for anything--whether Apo or not--allows lots of interpretations. It's more or less like a budget exercise. You need to meet a certain quota, and you have more than enough "materials" to get there. So you can take some less-than-optimal choices here and there, and you'll still be okay, because there's a large margin of error. But every time you choose something weaker than you could, you're cutting into that margin. Too much, and you can't reasonably do what you want to do. The margin of error for simply winning the game is very, very wide, to the point where I'm not sure it's possible to screw up so badly that you can't win, except on Lunatic or Lunatic+. The margin for Apo is a lot narrower, so doing things like neglecting a powerful unit (like Inigo with most fathers) in favor of a significantly weaker unit (like Gerome with most fathers) is risky--potentially acceptable, but you're gambling that that choice won't hurt enough to cost you the victory.

[The Pairing Thread]

Decided to change my pairings a bit, what do you guys think of these:

LissaXHenry

OliviaXKellam

MaribelleXRicken

SullyXStahl

ChromXSumia

CordeliaXLon'qu

ChercheXVirion

Robin/Tiki

PanneXFrederick

MirielXLibra

TharjaXGaius

NowiXDonnel

Going in order, + good, - bad:

(-) Henry's ability to pass down Berserker to boys (or Axefaire to girls) is somewhat wasted on Owain, so not a great choice in the grand scheme, but acceptable for a Mag-focused Owain.

(----) Kellam is generally considered the worst choice for any child, so that's really something you should reconsider. Vaike is one option. See below for other possible swaps.

(+) Ricken is always a good dad for Mag kids, and Brady is no exception.

(-) Kjelle is a solid unit who really benefits from Galeforce, so any choice that isn't M-Robin, Donnel, or Gaius is a clear step down, wasted potential.

(+) Chrom and Sumia are both short on partners, so this is a common choice.

(++) LQ!Severa is a strong choice. Not much more to say than that.

(-) What Gerome needs, as a non-Galeboy, is Berserker access before getting +Hit. Virion offers the latter, not the former. Vaike is a good alternative, letting you go Virion!Inigo.

(--) General consensus is that the Avatar should marry one of the children characters, or failing that, at least have two kids so you get a "second Morgan." When coupled with the relative weakness of the Manakete class, Tiki is a really inferior choice. You'd be better off with Robin x Nowi + Sully x Donnel, for maximum GF kids (but even that is less than ideal). If your heart is set on Tiki, though, roll with it--you just need to be much more on-point with your other choices.

(--) Fred is an okay second-string dad for several characters, as Not The NSA described upthread. Unfortunately, Yarne is not one of them. Better to go with Virion or Stahl and find someone else to father those children. (One option: Panne x Virion, Cherche x Vaike, Olivia x Fred.)

(-) Libra is a "backup" dad when you don't have other options. He only gives Laurent Priest, which is both redundant and useless, but his stats are acceptable. However, I rated this a minus because you've skipped over Gregor, who is an excellent father to Laurent, passing down very good classes AND fairly good stats. Definitely consider Miriel x Gregor.

(++) Tharja x Gaius is a good pick for several reasons.

(--) Nah just doesn't have the kit to really capitalize on inheriting Galeforce access, and Donnel's weak modifiers make things even worse. Plus, you're going to have one extra female 2nd gen unit (due to having F Morgan), so you'd be better off benching Nah and using Donnel somewhere else where he will be more useful, e.g. Sully x Donnel. That leaves you free to marry Nowi to anyone you want, which can even be Kellam.

[The Pairing Thread]

I almost have my apo team, but there are a few couples that I need to sort out

Chrom x +Mag/-Str F!Robin

Lissa x Ricken

Sully x Donnel

Miriel x Gregor or Stahl

Panne x Virion or Frederick

Cordelia x Lon'qu or Vaike

Sumia x Henry

Maribelle x Libra

Tharja x Gaius

Nowi x Gregor or Stahl

Oliva x ???

Cherche x ???

I'm not sure what I'm going to do about Olivia and Cherche but I am open to changing the pairings (save for F!Robin x Chrom)

Usual advice I see, for your unchosen couples, is:

Miriel x Gregor (great all-around, diverse unit)

Cordelia x Lon'qu (excellent stats to capitalize on her classes)

Panne x Virion or Stahl (gives Archer/+hit)

Nowi x Vaike (highest Str+Axefaire = good support girl)

Olivia x Stahl or Frederick (Fred gives Wyvern, Stahl gives Archer)

For the two where Stahl is an option: Stahl!Yarne is slightly more versatile as a physical unit but has slightly lower stat caps; Virion!Yarne has better stats and gets the slightly-useful Wyvern goodies (so maternal inheritance no longer matters). Stahl!Inigo is probably the better choice, simply because of Archer access, but Fred!Inigo trades a little Spd for more Skl and the mobility of the Wyvern Lord. So in the end you're *probably* better with Virion!Yarne and Stahl!Inigo, but you wouldn't do badly with Stahl!Yarne and Fred!Inigo.

Because you'll have one extra (read: unmarriable) boy, Gerome is your natural choice for a bench character from the 2nd gen. Marry Cherche to whomever you like, because it won't really matter.

If you can, consider taking Def as your FeMU's weakness rather than Str. -Str reduces both Str and Skl, which isn't great. -Def has only one real negative effect, Luck, since Def/Res are considered dump stats for Apo. If you do make that change, your Lucina and Morgan will be a little more flexible at basically no cost. It's not a big deal if you're already committed though, just one point of Skl and IIRC 3 points of Str.

[The Pairing Thread]

Oh, I mean giving MU VV and her DS+, like what happens in basegame with MaMU or Laurent/Lucina.

Ohhh, that's a different story. Afraid I probably can't comment on that one.

[The Pairing Thread]

Should a Gaius!Lucina (using the gay hack) definitely go physical, and if so should she still do VVDS+ (@Bride, probably?) with a +Mag FeMU or be paired with someone else? I could also just switch MU's Asset to +Str and do a non-VV setup, but that seems like a bit of a waste.

I don't know what classes Gaius passes down in the hack, but if it's like the base game, Lucina (as Wayward Alchemist noted) doesn't have access to Vengeance. The classes she gains, assuming Fighter->Peg Knight as with other Gaius daughters, would be: Peg Knight, Thief, Myrmidon. My recommendations would be Assassin or Bow Knight. Since you can't get VV, probably better to go Aether, DS+, Swordfaire (or Bowfaire, if you prefer), GF, and LB? Might be missing something.

[The Pairing Thread]

Would anyone be nice enough to help me flush out my parings and tell me what skills would be the best for each child, ty

Chrom!Olivia

Donnel!Sully

Vaike!Nowi

Stahl!Cordella

Henry!Sumia

Gregor!Miriel

Kellam!Panne

Frederick!Cherche

Gaius!tharja

Lon'qu!Meribelle

Ricken!Lyssa

In general, don't use Frederick or Kellam if you can avoid it. There are almost always better dad choices than Fred (edit: but there are exceptions, read further down) and there are always better choices than Kellam.

The pairings I would recommend you change to:

Stahl x Panne

Lon'qu x Cordelia

Libra x Maribelle

Virion x Cherche

Keep the others as they are.

Also, I recommend having your Avatar marry one of the second-generation characters. If you're going for a physically-inclined Avatar, Lucina and Inigo are both good choices. A female Mag-focused Avatar should probably marry Owain, though Laurent is also good. A male Mag-focused Avatar is a tough choice, but I'd go with Cynthia, or....maybe Noire?

As for skills, definitely follow HadesRayne's suggestions. Follow that advice and you will be just fine.

Edit:

Fred!Inigo is the only exception I can think of right now. He's definitely not the best dad for Inigo, but it's one of the rare cases where Fred is a pretty good dad for anyone. Similarly, Libra isn't usually a strong choice, but Libra!Inigo is actually pretty good. This lets you save really good dads, like Lon'qu and Ricken, for characters that will make better use of their potential (e.g. LQ!Severa and Ricken!Owain).

[The Pairing Thread]

Just curious, but what's the best asset/flaw for mothering Gerome?

Yes, mothering. I'm going to play the gay hack of Fire Emblem, so the difficulty of the game can kinda get tossed out the window at some points I guess. Shh, just pretend I'm playing a male Avatar...

But basically my usual asset/flaw is +Speed -Luck/-Defense. I'd say Luck is more fitting for an Avatar (I'm unlucky) but I adore Armsthrift.

Gerome's relevant base mods (from a "blank" Avatar parent) are +4 Str, +1 Mag (the rest don't matter). If you want to go for the biggest mod you can get, +Str/-Def is your best choice, and this Gerome will be a competent lead character (especially since, unlike normal-game Gerome, he can get GF inherited from the female Avatar). If you want the most flexible Gerome, +Skl/-Def is probably your best choice. If you go +Spd, you can take literally any support char that has a speed-boosting class, including Bride, and you'll make the 75 Spd breakpoint; without it, it's still possible, but your support has to be a +4 Spd or higher class, which means Assassin (or Falcon Knight/Great Lord, but those would be female chars). Unless I fucked up on the math somewhere, which is frustratingly likely, so I welcome correction on that.

No love for Henry!Nah?

Not_The_NSA already said this, but I figure it's worth reiterating. Nah and Gerome are the two typical choices for bench characters when the Avatar marries a first-gen character, depending on whether Morgan is female or male, respectively. For an Apo focus, Nah is essentially down one class due to Manakete (ain't no Bravestones) and her flat/Def-focused innate mods (before dad mods) aren't particularly inspiring; lacking GF makes things all the worse. Henry doesn't really fix most of this, especially since he doesn't give access to the highest-Str class females can get (General).

Henry!Nah, as a unit, looks okay-ish by the numbers--a little too generalist with +3 Str/+3 Mag, but not horribad. The problem is the opportunity cost involved. By analogy: you can spend $1 and get a simple but healthy single meal, or you can spend $1 and get a lavish breakfast/lunch/dinner combo. The first sounds good in isolation, but compared to the latter it's garbage.

[The Pairing Thread]

Chrom!Inigo is fine, and Avatar!Cynthia gives you a higher degree of flexibility than most files have purely because you've taken care of the two "short list" parents (Sumia and Chrom are the only parents who can't marry basically every 1st-gen, pre-timeskip character). The +Skl asset is good, though usually -Def is preferred over -HP, since -HP gives -1 Str/Mag, whereas -Def only hurts defensive stats (Lck, Def, Res) that are less important.

Gregor!Owain isn't a particularly great choice. The mods are nothing to write home about, and the only new class line he gains is Merc (which is still good! Just...you can do better.) Gregor is a good dad for the right kids, but much of his potential is wasted because Owain already has Myrmidon and Barbarian. Similar stuff applies to Vaike!Yarne, though Vaike's mods are better than Gregor's. The two will not be "bad," in the sense that they already had good kits, but fall short of their potential. Very very roughly, you generally want to look for dads that give fairly significant class/skill flexibility (especially if it adds really good class options, like Berserker, BK, Sniper, or Sage, or new Faires/proc skills), while simultaneously adding strong mods to Str, Mag, Skl, and/or Spd, not Lck, Def, or Res (which do nothing for the offense-heavy optimization this thread focuses on--Apotheosis makes tanking/defense a sucker's game, so you want to go balls-out for offenses). Some dads are good because they give a great class set despite mediocre stats (Stahl), others can good because they give great mods despite "meh" class options (Lon'qu might count), and some are just nice because they give Berserker to a son who wouldn't have it or Axefaire to a girl. Other dads are bad for giving both bland/unhelpful classes and defense-focused mods (Kellam is Worst Dad).

Gaius and Donnel are best used as fathers to provide any two of Kjelle, Nah, or Noire with Galeforce, since they can't normally access it. Because Donnel's mods kind of stink and clash really badly with Noire's (his key stat is Luck, her worst stat), the conventional wisdom is Donnel!Kjelle and Gaius!Noire. You can do the reverse, which leads to a somewhat stronger Kjelle at the cost of an apparently noticeably weaker Noire. I've only done Donnel!Kjelle and Giaus!Noire myself so I can't really give an honest comparison--just saying what I hear.

There are a few general things to look out for when planning over-arching stuff of this nature:
1. You usually want to get Galeforce on as many units as possible, because more GF units means more potential lead characters. It's not make-or-break, but more GF means more power, pretty much straight-up.

a. This leads to stuff like "never use Sully!Lucina" (the only non-Maiden version that can't get GF), and...
b. ...getting two of Kjelle, Noire, Nah to have a dad that passes down the PK class line--which means Gaius, Donnel, or MaMU as dad.

2. Yarne, Gerome, Laurent, and one of Nah, Kjelle, or Noire cannot have GF (unless including male Avatar), so you want to make them good at supporting.

a. This means seeking high passive damage boosts, as dual strikes can't proc skills, so (ideally) inheriting high base Str, a strong Faire, and (for the boys) getting Berserker and Aggression. Other passive boosts, like DG+, Dual Strike+, and Dual Support+ are desirable (e.g. inherited from Miriel/Cherche).

b. Therefore, Gerome wants a dad with Barbarian access, since Yarne and Gerome already have it. Henry is the preferred choice, if he's not needed elsewhere (e.g. Henry!Cynthia).

c. Yarne wants extra hit chance, which means looking for the Archer line, making Virion a good choice (though there are others).

d. Nah is generally seen as the weakest of the three "potential" gale girls, so she usually is targeted for getting a dad that helps make a good support character, and Vaike is a common choice (he gives her Axefaire access and very high Str).

3. If you don't marry the Avatar to one of the 2nd gen characters, you'll end up with 1 extra/"bench" 2nd-gen character. Given the above notes, Gerome and Nah are common choices depending on who gets which dads (e.g. Vaike!Nah vs. Vaike!Gerome). In your case, you have an extra girl (FMorgan makes 7 girls, 6 boys), so Nah can be benched, freeing up Vaike to go to a son that can use the Str boost--like Gerome.

4. Finding good fathers for the remaining characters is a matter of weighing costs and benefits. Generally speaking, you want both good mods and good extra classes (for skills or for use), but often you must settle for one or the other. Often, someone has to lose out, so it's a choice of who you'd prefer to work with.

a. First example: Owain can go either physical or magical--and be a good unit regardless of what you choose. For Mag, Ricken is a great choice: high Mag (+5) and two great class additions (Archer and Cavalier--the latter more for itself, the former for giving Luna). For phys, Stahl is very good; his mods are bland, but again, Cavalier+Archer.

b. Second example: Lon'qu provides excellent mods for Skl and Spd, so it's useful to look for a child that gets a lot of benefit out of the classes he provides too. LQ!Severa is a fantastic and diverse, if slightly unorthodox, unit with just about the best stats LQ can provide: +2 Str, +6 Spd/Skl, no "wasted" points in Lck, Def, or Res. She makes a great lead, and a pretty good support--all around good.

c. Third example: You'll often hear people singing praises of Gregor!Laurent. This is because he gets fairly good modifiers in all desirable stats (Mag, Skl, Spd), picks up two good, versatile class lines (Merc and Myrmidon), and thus becomes supremely flexible--he can be molded into nearly any kind of "support" unit you'd want.

So, to give one example--recognizing that there are many alternate, but equally valid, paths here--you could change things up to:

Sumia!FMorgan

Avatar!Cynthia

Olivia!Lucina

Chrom!Inigo

Donnel!Kjelle

Gaius!Noire

LQ!Severa

Henry!Brady

Stahl!Yarne

Gregor!Laurent

Ricken!Owain

Vaike!Gerome

Whatever!Nah (bench)

This is a pretty sweeping change, basically keeping nothing but your fixed pairings. But it's a good deal more optimized as a result. Everything after Gaius!Noire can be changed around however without much issue, especially if you switch things with focused intent. For example, Virion!Yarne is a perfectly fine swap so you can have Stahl!Owain and (say) Ricken!Brady or Ricken!Laurent, or you could do Libra!Brady and Ricken!Severa if you want the latter Mag-oriented. Your Lucina and Inigo will be physically-inclined, so consider having them marry kids with a similar focus, e.g. Chrom!Inigo x Donnel!Kjelle and Olivia!Lucina x Stahl!Yarne. Morgan and Cynthia will be true generalists, with +7 Skl/+4 Spd, so you can have them marry pretty much any boy who can support them as lead unit, since that fat +Skl means extra proc chances. This group leans a bit heavily to the physical side, though, so making some swaps to get more Mag-focused units is worth considering. (As stated: every path, even an "optimized" one, has its issues/tradeoffs.)

[The Pairing Thread]

Looks fine--it's hard to be unprepared for non-Apo stuff, and even for that I suspect you have your bases covered.. Every pair has at least one gale user. Pairs make sense stat-wise (e.g. the first two are Mag-focused; the last two and the third are Str-focused, and Laurent/Morgan can go either way). I wouldn't know what classes to recommend for them though--you'll need someone else for that.

[The Pairing Thread]

Actually--yeah, *that's* what is missing. I'm not seeing Lon'qu married to anyone. That seems like kind of an oversight? He looks like he can be a good dad for both Yarne (if you're not getting Yarne the Archer tree for that fat Hit bonus) and, even moreso, Severa. LQ!Severa is a great unit.

But yeah if you're partial to Cordelia x Libra, roll with it, especially with non-Apo.

[The Pairing Thread]

I did a bit of shuffling of my pairings and here's what I have so far for my planned non apo MaMu run:

~Chrom x Maribelle

~Lissa x Ricken

~Frederick x Panne

~Sully x Donnel

~Miriel x Gregor

~Sumia x Henry

~Cordelia x Libra

~Nowi x Vaike

~Tharja x Gaius

~Olivia x Virion

~Cherche x Stahl

~MaMu x Lucina

I'm pretty sure that I'm missing someone as a switch (but letting Inigo get bowfaire is too good to pass up). I'm hoping that this set up will lead to some fun. If not, well I tried to get them to work out.

Looks decent to me. Since HadesRayne recommended Fred!Yarne of the limited set available to silvRboLt, it's probably the best you could do with Yarne given the other pairings you're committed to. Since you're not gunning for Apo, a lot of strategies are viable anyway, so you'll almost certainly be fine.

[The Pairing Thread]

Hello all..again XD Back again with another inquiry regarding pairs.

In truth, I'm sort of stuck as to whom to marry Panne, Cherche and Miriel off to. .-.

Remaining are Frederick, Lon'qu, and Gregor.

(New playthrough, by the way..)

From the given list...Miriel x Gregor, Fred x Cherche, Panne x Lon'qu. Gregor!Laurent is a great unit, from what I've been told. It's really a tossup on the remaining two, though. I would normally recommend Fred!Yarne, but Lon'qu!Gerome's modifiers are *painfully* flat. Fred!Gerome doubles down on Gerome's natural focus, and LQ!Yarne gets truly impressive Spd (+6) and Skl (+7). The class inheritances aren't great, but one must work the bread one has. So, just to be clear (since it might get lost in that paragraph):

Miriel x Gregor

Fred x Cherche

Panne x Lon'qu

Does Gregor not pass down the Pegasus Knight tree? I'm fairly certain he does.

Nope. The only fathers who can pass down PK are Donnel and Gaius. Now, admittedly, I've never TESTED this, personally, but it's been repeated so many times here in this thread, and is corroborated by every website I've seen. I'd be real damn surprised if this somehow slipped through the notice of so many people. Edit: To be more specific, Gregor passes down the Troubadour line, not the Pegasus Knight line.

[The Pairing Thread]

Anyone?

Sorry, I've been pretty out of it lately and had D&D yesterday--that always eats up my whole evening. :)

As for what you've got...

~Chrom x Maribelle -- An acceptable pair. Definitely means that, for Lucina, DF or Sage is your best bet, as Maribell gives the highest Mag modifier Lucina can get (though Bride presents an intriguing possibility...). Chrom!Brady picks up the Archer line, but I'm not sure if that's a better pick than sticking to his usual choices.

~Lissa x Ricken -- Quite good. Plays up Owain's natural Mag inclination into a true focus, and gives both Luna and the Archer line, two solid benefits.

~Frederick x Panne -- Eh, acceptable I guess. Mods aren't great, but aren't strictly bad either--tied for second-best on Str and Skl, though the Def points are "wasted." Classes have a lot of overlap, but give Luna which is always good, and the Wyvern Rider line, "fixing" his maternal inheritance.

~Sully x Donnel -- Recommended, so no major comments there.

~Miriel x Virion -- Acceptable, I think? Sort of an odd choice, though. Modifiers are fair, but classes don't provide you much other than Archer...and Laurent is probably better as something else (typically Sage or Berserker).

~Sumia x Henry -- Standard pick for Sumia if she doesn't marry Chrom, so generally expected. Henry!Cynthia will probably end up a DF or Sage.

~Cordelia x Libra -- Eh, not so great. Libra!Severa has no focus--she's got just a bit of everything, which is undesirable.

~Nowi x Gregor -- Not so great. Gregor is a great dad for the right kids, but Nah will struggle to make use of the potential he provides since she lacks GF.

~Tharja x Gaius -- Recommended, so no major comments here.

~Olivia x Stahl -- Pretty good. Decent mods, gives both Luna and the Archer line. Definitely a physically-oriented Inigo.

~Cherche x Vaike -- Acceptable. Gets Gerome Berserker, which is the main thing he needs as a non-Galeboy.

~MaMu x Lucina -- Standard pick. Given Maribell!Lucina, I hope you're going either +Mag or +Skl, to capitalize on the mods provided by Maribell.

Overall? It looks alright, though I'm very very far from an expert. I think I'd recommend switching Libra and Gregor--Severa can really make use of the potential Gregor provides, especially Axefaire. More or less, Libra's a low-tier parent, and Nah's a low-tier child, so you'll probably be better off in the long run sticking them together and saving the "good" parents for other things.

From what I'm seeing, with the changes I recommended, of your girls, you end up with Severa, Kjelle, and Noire as physical units, and Cynthia, Morgan, and Nah as mag units. Of your boys, you'll have Gerome, Yarne, and Inigo as physical units, and Brady, Owain, and Laurent as Mag units. Your MaMu will either be a versatile unit (if +Skl) or a mag unit (if +Mag, natch); with all child units plus MaMU and Chrom/Maribelle, you're looking slightly Mag-heavy but not badly so. From there, it's really just a matter of looking at who's going to be lead units (generally someone with GF), deciding what class you like for them, and then picking someone who has a good support match for that class. For example, Gregor!Severa can get Axefaire, making a great Hero. She'll want someone with a strong physical support class, so Vaike!Gerome or Virion!Yarne would be good choices. Or consider Gaius!Noire: she will probably do best as a Sniper, so a Bow Knight support is right up her alley, meaning Stahl!Inigo is worth thinking about, though Virion!Laurent is also an option.

If you're really set on Nowi x Gregor, you can more or less switch Severa and Nah's places in the first sentence of the previous paragraph. You won't have her leading, though; lacking GF means she should be supporting, most likely as a Wyvern Lord, though Bow Knight and Assassin are valid alternatives.

Edit: Better yet, listen to HR, and ignore me wherever we disagree.

[The Pairing Thread]

1. Chrom x Maiden gets more tempting the more people describe how bad it is. But maybe in the future lol

2. Fred / Henry are my only choices then. I imagine Libra!Owain wouldn't be so bad if Henry gets taken by Sumia. I guess Henry!Cynthia's hair is better than Fred!Cynthia's. But Henry!Owain wouldn't be bad, right, just that Cynthia's gonna be left out if Chrom/Henry isn't the dad.

3. I will go DonxSul and GaiusxTharja for the GFG (galeforce girls).

4. Aight, ty so much. :)

Well, the real issue with the Maiden is simply wasted opportunity, on both narrative and mechanical levels. You certainly can do it...but you'll never see any support convos (AFAIK), and her lines will be covered by Chrom and the Avatar in the Chapter 13 post-battle cutscene. (That is, Chrom covers most of the lines normally spoken by Lucina's mother, and the Avatar is the one to look into Lucina's eyes to see the brand.) Further, Lucina's mods will be just Chrom's +1, and she'll have the same class-list as her father, making her strictly worse than even Gregor!Inigo (who gets no new classes at all, but at least gets Gregor's modifiers).

So, I mean, you totally CAN do it. But if you do, you'll have a bit of a rough go with Apo. It's probably still possible, but Lucina will drop from "top tier" to "not very good," which cuts into your margin of error. And as I said before, it's possible to beat the game, even on the highest difficulty setting, with *any* group. Downgrading a single good unit won't change that.

And yeah, Sumia's pretty much limited to Chrom, Fred, and Henry. Chrom is her best husband mostly for providing Aether to Cynthia (though getting Archer is really nice too). If Chrom is out, it's a toss-up between the remaining two. Once you marry off Chrom, Sumia, and Donnel/Gaius to "potential" galegirl moms, you really do have close to free rein over the remainder. Some choices are better than others, e.g. LQ!Severa is a good one while Gregor!Inigo is...not so good, but honestly it's hard to screw things up enough to really hurt things at that point.

More or less, if you completely ruthlessly optimize every character (there are many equally valid ways of doing so), with all DLC in play, the ideal strategies, and heavy number-crunching, you can easily win Apotheosis. However, each step away from these things--excluding DLC skills, using sub-optimal class choices, choosing sub-optimal or even "bad" pairings (e.g. Maiden!Lucina, Kellam!Morgan), not using forged Brave weapons whenever possible, etc.--cuts into that margin of error. Doing one or two less-optimized choices will make almost no noticeable impact; doing even one or two "bad" choices probably won't stop you. It's more of a spectrum than a binary state. Sort of like...imagine putting coins on a two-dish scale. As long as you put most of your coins on one side (say the left side), the scale will favor that side. If you put *all* the pennies on that side, well it will dramatically favor that side. You can shift a few pennies or dimes and it won't make much difference--those are small coins. If you have a whole handful of coins, you can probably shift several quarters or a dollar coin to the other side, and the scale will still favor the left side. But if you shift enough things, whether many small ones or one too many big ones, the balance tips.

Maiden!Lucina is a big coin shifted to the right. Not getting Cynthia because Sumia has no one to marry is another big coin shifted to the right. Whether you have Gregor!Laurent (the typically-recommended choice) or someone else, like Ricken!Laurent? That's a small coin.