amiabletemplar
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Posts posted by amiabletemplar
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Please rate my pairings :) [i'm new to playing FE]
Welcome to the forums, and to the series!
First playthrough: FeMU asset skill, physical type
FeMU x Inigo (not sure of parent yet)
Chrome x Sumia
Stahl x Sully
Lonqu x cordelia
Ricken x lissa
Gaius x nowi
Donnel x tharja
Vaike x cherche
Henry x maribelle
Gregor x miriel
There's a mix of well-regarded and...less-well-regarded pairs here (not surprising, since you're new--I made many 'mistakes' myself). Note that, in this thread, most people are assuming you're trying to go for Apotheosis (aka "Apo"), the "ultimate challenge" DLC map. If you aren't trying to do that, and are just playing the game--do whatever pairings you like. It doesn't matter what you choose, you'll be able to win the game, even on the highest difficulty setting.
With that in mind, here's my review:
Chrom (no e!) x Sumia -- Perfectly good choice. Neither parent has many options to begin with, anyway!
Stahl x Sully -- A choice most wouldn't recommend, I think. Stahl is a great dad if you care about skills more than modifiers, but Kjelle already has most of the things Stahl can give her. More importantly, Stahl!Kjelle misses out on Galeforce. It's not the end of the world, but there are better choices--for both Stahl and Sully.
Lon'qu x Cordelia -- A strong choice. It was recommended to me, a long while back, and I've been quite pleased with how LQ!Severa has performed.
Ricken x Lissa -- Another strong choice. Lissa's already Mag-focused, and Ricken is the best dad for Mag kids.
Gaius x Nowi -- An acceptable choice, if you want Nah to have Galeforce. I think most would recommend a different choice, but you're at least taking advantage of Gaius' GF inheritance.
Donnel x Tharja -- I suspect most would recommend that you switch to Donnel x Nowi and Gaius x Tharja. Donnel!Nah has weaker modifiers, but Gaius!Noire is much better at being a Sniper, a strong class (especially for Apotheosis).
Vaike x Cherche -- Just fine. Vaike!Gerome gets Berserker, which is one of the best male classes, especially for a non-Galeboy like Gerome. Note, however, that Vaike's high Str mod means he is desirable in other places too (Vaike!Nah is a common choice).
Henry x Maribelle -- Acceptable. Allows Brady to be a Berserker if for some reason that's desirable (but really he should stay a Sage), gives Dark Mage to round out Brady's kit.
Gregor x Miriel -- A strong choice, one that nearly everyone seems to recommend.
Help me pick?:
Fred!Inigo or virion!Inigo (hair color badass)
Or libra!Inigo
Or Fred!Yarne
Or virion!Yarne
Or kellam!Yarne
Leaning more towards virion!Inigo (for hair color)
Thanks all :)
Kellam's modifiers are very poor for Apotheosis (emphasizing Defense over everything else), and his class options aren't very good either, so you'll rarely (if ever) see people recommending him as a dad. And Libra!Inigo is unwise, if you're going for a physically-inclined FeMU. It doesn't end up making a large impact, but it leaves Morgan's modifiers uncomfortably flat.
This leaves us Virion!Inigo vs. Fred!Inigo. Virion!Inigo has lower Str, but higher Spd, at the cost of some "useless" points in Mag. Interestingly, both fathers will get you the same Skl bonus (+8). Since class inheritance is no concern, if you're going for a physically-oriented FeMU, Fred!Inigo is probably your best choice. Also, Virion!Yarne has been recommended to me in the past. I have Fred!Inigo in my current file and he's definitely solid.
So, of the list, Chrom x Sumia, LQ x Cord, Ricken x Lissa, and Gregor x Miriel are ones I would say "keep these." Fred!Inigo and Virion!Yarne are also pretty good choices. The others could improve with careful shifting around, though you'll want to be careful about certain things (e.g. Gaius and Donnel should always marry one of Tharja, Sully, and Nowi; ideally, Gerome's dad should be Vaike or Henry if they're available).
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quick question abot proc stacking
aether+luna >luna+ignis>luna+astra
my question is where would (if at all) ingis+ astra fit in here
and is astra even worth it in apo?
vengeance is excluded due to being different
The fundamental problem is: Astra will generally do less damage (high-Def/Res enemies with Dragonskin, Aegis+, and Pavise+ means each hit is only 1/8th of normal damage), yet it has a higher priority than Ignis. You want to avoid stacking procs where the higher priority would mean lower damage.
Also, the only people who can get Ignis--Robin, Morgan, and (if applicable) Morgan's sibling--will always be able to get Luna, which is generally better for Apo. Luna works best against enemies that have high Def/Res, and that's exactly what you have in Apo. Astra works best against low-Def/Res enemies, where the "you deal half damage, several times" thing doesn't matter much. But when your opponents can already ignore 75% of incoming damage, hitting *bigger* is much more worthwhile than hitting a lot, if you have a choice between the two. Conversely, because Luna+Astra is not too hard to get (at least on child characters), many characters will be able to use it--so it's worth mentioning.
Edit:
Since I do not even remotely know the details, HadesRayne, would you clarify how this would be affected by the defensive benefits Apo enemies get? That is, how does Dragonskin etc. affect the end result?
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Stahl is for anyone who wants non-vengeance procs and archer tree. You say just archer as if Sniper wasn't one of the (if not -the-) best Apo class.
For anyone who already has the procs (or if they only wanted Luna and got that from the mother), then yeah, the kid only gets Sniper. But if we live in a scenario where your kid doesn't use Sniper as an end class (and/or there is no room for HR+20 on your skill pool), then Stahl is just a mod father. His mods aren't poor by any means, but if you only wanted mods you'd look elsewhere like to Virion or Lon'qu.
Kjelle and Noire want galeforce, sure. But there are instances where Noire doesn't even take galeforce (if you're running Gaius elsewhere like Gaius!Kjelle--then it's a matter of Donnel!Noire vs galeforceless!Noire). Then you have instances like Brady who love his mother very much. If you have something like LB/Agg/Luna/GF/Faire, then you're already opting out of HR+20, Astra, and/or Sniper as an ending class (although Stahl!Brady could run Sniper). Sitting on wishy washy mods with nothing earned from the father? Opportunity cost hits pretty hard.
When you only care about mods, Stahl isn't exactly someone's first choice. But if you care about Sniper, Lunastra, etc., then Stahl is your first choice.
Understood on the Archer. I sometimes forget the significance of the Sniper, so that's my bad. When I said "only Archer," though, I more meant in the sense of Kjelle being able to get some really quite impressive breadth with other fathers (of course, Fred gives her nothing class-wise, which is obviously bad). Donnel, Henry, and Libra all able to give her 3 new class lines on top of her starting 4, and Donnel's set contains no overlap, either.
Thanks for explaining.
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Yarne, Laurent, & Nah can use him well also. Out of the 10 kids he can father (excluding Lucina, Morgan, & Cynthia), he only sucks as a dad for three of them: Kjelle, Noire, & Brady.
More to confirm (or correct) my thoughts on this than anything else, what are the flaws with Stahl as their father?
Kjelle and Noire I'd assume are partly due to the lost GF potential, though Kjelle's class inheritance from Stahl is...impressively bad (just Archer? ouch). Less sure about what (other than GF loss) makes Stahl!Noire a poor choice, which means I stand to learn something by finding out. :)
Speculating on Stahl!Brady, I'd assume it's more a matter of opportunity costs (that is, *not* getting Stahl for some other, better-fitting child) coupled with flat mods and a lack of good classes added (already has Cavalier, and Myrmidon/Archer are of little use to Brady as a Mag-focused unit).
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...People actually used LQ!Sevvy for sorcs? I thought the niche of that pair was so Sevs could reach 75 speed as WL with lancefaire and dodgetank Anna in Apo.
And is funny that you mention that, I was going exactly through the old boards in gamefaqs just yesterday and I was laughing so bad at the things we were saying back then, btw I think I even saw you there a couple of times.
Hmm, I thought Inigo, Severa, and maybe Owain were the kids that used Stahl the most, or were you talking about BFwarrior!Gerome?
@amiabletemplar
Well looks like Ricken wins, should have figured, that means Libra goes to Lissa.
Also, which are your current pairs? Are you doing a specific run?
Nothing specific. I'm actually quite new to the optimization side of things. I just screwed up stuff on my next-most-recent file (like not making sure all my galeboys got GF before recruiting them...) so I decided, "Hey, I'm gonna go look for *advice* this time!" But there's a lot of old or even intentionally false info floating around out there (like recommending Fred for every child), and this thread proved very helpful. After watching and reading for a while, and after poring over the two Fire Emblem wikis' info (some of which is lamentably inaccurate...) and the SF info pages (which are, AFAICT, all completely accurate), I saw some questions I felt I could answer. Making due deference to more-experienced posters, of course.
My current file has:
+HP/-Lck FeMu!Lucina (the asset/flaw is a lamentable mistake, but one I had already too-thoroughly committed to before seeking real advice)
Chrom!Morgan
Stahl!Owain
Fred!Inigo
LQ!Severa
Henry!Cynthia
Donnel!Kjelle
Gaius!Tharja
Vaike!Nah
Gregor!Yarne
Virion!Gerome
Libra!Brady
Ricken!Laurent
I play only intermittently, mostly while I'm trying to fall asleep or when I'm travelling, so I've had this file for several months now. Most of the pairings I've been completely satisfied with, some I'll change when I start again. Probably going to shuffle around a few, like going Virion!Yarne and Gregor!Laurent, and will try to find a way to get Gerome Berserker (probably via Henry, but that has its own issues). With this file, Donnel!Kjelle and LQ!Severa have been especially good thus far, and I love Crom/FeMU. The support dialogues are ridiculous, but many of their 'cutscene' interactions make so much more sense as a married couple. Lucina's ultra-versatility is also a huge plus, and (IMO) the Lucina/M Morgan support makes just a little more sense than anyone else's, because Lucina is the only other person Morgan can remember from his early life. Preparing for her possible death would be extremely likely to upset him!
All the mechanical bits aside, though, if there's anything I've learned from reading and occasionally contributing here, it's, "Everything is contextual." Few choices are truly "bad" (though *some* are--e.g. Sully!Lucina loses GF access without any significant returns, and Gregor!Inigo gets *no* new classes), but whether a given choice is better or worse often depends on what other choices you'll make, or what limitations it places on you. For example, marrying Chrom to the female Avatar means Sumia only has three possible husbands: Fred, Henry, and Gaius. But Gaius is in high demand for daughters that can get GF via class inheritance, so you only "really" have two choices. But then if you make a choice there (like how I chose Henry), *other* consequences arise (e.g. getting Gerome to have Berserker is difficult without paying some *other* cost.) So this thread exists more to evaluate probable/workable paths, rather than finding "optimal" ones.
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@amiabletemplar
I see, thanks for the reply!
I was wondering if Chrom is overall the better choice but it seems that Chrom does as good as Stahl though, minus RK and extra point to str rather than speed, and I never use RK anyway outside of no DLC runs, I rather procstack, so I think I'll marry Olivia with Stahl so I can free Chrom for Sumia and then marry sumia!Lucina to MaMu. The speed problem can be fixed by marrying Inigo to Vaike!Hero!Nah.
yes i know that cursed fourslot syndrome, i am a competitive pokemon player after all.So the setup for my stahl!Inigo will most likely be GF, AGG, LB, luna and astra/SF/AF.
Another thing who is better for magic!severa, Ricken or Libra? I don't mind the class overlap with dark mage, she is going to marry either lonqu!Laurent or virion!Brady.
Thanks in advance!
The bigger issue with Libra!Severa is that the overlap is double super compounded. That is, you have the Dark Mage overlap--sure, a little overlap happens. But out of the two class sets she does gain, she only gets ONE worthwhile new end class, Sage. She also gets no new or interesting proc skills. Honestly, the only thing I can see that vaguely recommends Libra!Severa is being able to easily inherit one of the best recovery skills (Renewal) without grinding for it in a shitty class (and +1 Skl, I guess). That's it. In every other way, Libra!Severa is straight-up inferior to Ricken!Severa if--and I stress that if--you're prioritizing her father over any other choices. In the end, the determining factor will probably be that Ricken is a good Mag dad for basically everyone--so you might be tempted to give him to someone else instead. In which case, Libra is probably the next best choice--Henry is roughly equivalent, but provides better Str for kids that would want the Berserker inheritance (or Axefaire, for daughters).
Edit:
Also I can second Not_The_NSA's recommendation of Fred!Inigo. He's perfectly cromulent in my current file.
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I miss threads like this one, now that you can buy almost every skill you want in Fates, optimization is no longer needed. How boring.
Anyway it's been a while since I played good ol awakening, and I was wondering if chrom!inigo is still considered to be the most optimal inigo for a physical build, more precisely a hero.
btw whatever happened to czar_yoshi? his opinions were cool.I can't speak for everyone, but Chrom!Inigo still has all the advantages I remember hearing about before: great physical class options (Zerker, BK, Hero), all the Faires he could ever want (naturally Axe & Sword, Chrom gives Bow too), access to two great proc skills, and best of all, Rightful King. His weaknesses, as far as I can tell, are that his caps are spread pretty much evenly (the biggest bonus is +3 Spd/Skl; several other dads give you bigger bonuses to either Str or one/both of those stats), and that with Rightful King added to the mix it becomes harder to pick just 5 skills (in Pokemon they call it "four moveslot syndrome," hah.)
I'd assume a set like GF, LB, Agg, RK, Luna. For a pure Apo-focused build that seems better, but for other stuff, maybe Axefaire instead of Agg. I dunno, I'm not well-versed enough to be able to make those calls. Chrom!Inigo hits 55 Spd as a Hero with LB, so rallies+tonic+baseline support bonus (from stats) gets him to 70 Spd. His marriage partner must thus have a class Spd pairup bonus of at least +3 in order to ensure he hits the 75 breakpoint, but that's easily doable--BK being among the better choices (but Hero, Falcon Knight, or Assassin are all valid options too). Sadly, Brides do not provide a sufficient Spd bonus. (Alternatively, if you just want to hit the 69 Spd point, it doesn't matter what his ladylove's class is, so that may be a perk.)
So, as for "best"? I honestly don't know. As for "very good"? Absolutely--Chrom!Inigo is an excellent physical unit with a variety of class options, strong skills, and no serious weaknesses. Playing him as a Hero means focusing a bit more on proc damage, since with tonic, Rally Spectrum+Heart, LB, and basic support bonus, he'll have an 80% chance of Luna procs. Give hm a girlfriend with a class that gives both Spd and Skl bonuses (BK or Hero) and you're looking at 85%, plus another 4 with Rally Skill. With Brave weapons and doubling your enemy, this gives a (binomial) expected value of E=n*p=4*.85=3.4 Luna procs every time he attacks, and a ~98% chance of at least two procs (or 4*.89 = 3.56, 99.5% chance of getting at least 2 procs per round with a Brave weapon). Maybe not "best," but those numbers are hard to argue with.
Edit:
Also, as for Czar_Yoshi, he may not have posted here recently, but he has at least logged in recently, so he's probably fine. Most likely just busy and playing Fates! (Given his listed age and the current time of year, he's probably been occupied with college stuff. You could always send him a PM to ask how he's doing.)
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How about;
Gregor!Severa @Hero [LimitBreak, GaleForce, AxeFaire, Vengeance/Astra, All Stats +2]
Severa is definately need a proc to further increase her strength and the only proc that is available to her are Vengeance and Astra. Through I personally suggest Vengeance but if you want to try out Astra, go ahead. I would suggest proc stacking but then I realized that Vengeance and Astra doesn't synch well enough due to fact that you're playing risky with Vengeance and if you're perfect calculated plan is ruin due to Astra which halves your damage to attack 5 times then.....
All Stats +2 is a great skill when you have absoulutely no idea what other skill to put on or have no other desirable skill to have. You could also replace AS +2 with a breaker like Bowbreaker or Tomebreaker if you want to avoid those deadly 2 range bows and magic respectively.
Yeah, an Astra/Veng procstack is sub-optimal--when Astra would be better, there's little point to having Veng in the first place, and when Veng would be better, the Astra is just a waste. Better to choose one and focus on it. I'll second your recommendation of Vengeance over Astra, with the caveat that best use of it requires a degree of effort and strategy that not all players may wish to invest. The whole "you can get it to proc on every hit" thing is just so hard to turn down.
As for Gregor!Severa's 5th skill--personally, I'd recommend either Dual Support+ or Anathema. I'd narrowly favor DSp+ myself, but really they're both great skills, and will probably prove more useful than AS+2.
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Something like that. I still have to work out Vaike!Brady though.
I'd suggest Lucky Seven, myself. Brady has little need for Acrobat, and L7 is a nice skill to have on hand early on. There's little he can really get from Thief, Assassin, or Trickster other than that, so you can skip that entire line of classes.
Axefaire is also a decent choice--Vaike can get it very easily, and it's useful for all of Brady's (non-Thief) physically-oriented classes (Barb line, Fighter line, War Monk and Great Knight).
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AS+2 isn't really necessary imo. I'd trade off for Lifetaker just to have a heal skill.
From what I can tell, based on the Serenes Forest stat calc thinger, LQ!Severa as a Hero, with a Berserker support, hits 78 Spd (48 natural stats + 10 LB + 10 all 3 rallies + 2 tonic + 8 support = 78), which is slight overkill--so, I agree, All+2 is not necessary. That said, All+2 will mean you can use any support and still hit exactly 75 Spd, rather than just a Berserker, if that is an issue (though really it shouldn't be).
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For No Grind Lunatic+, what would be the best wife for a DEF!MaMu? I was thinking Cordelia.
Ooh, that's...tough. I've heard that, if you can get access to a Dragonstone+ before/when you recruit her, Nowi is a good no-grind unit because of the stat bonuses...but beyond that I have no idea.
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Hey thanks man. My Avatar's +speed -luck, which I sort of regret since I wouldn't mind having 100% chance of not breaking a weapon with Armsthrift, which almost all of my main units have. Cynthia and Morgan are both Grandmasters and have the same skills: Aegis, Galeforce, Armsthrift, Sol and Ignis.
Yeah, Noire is currently a Sniper with Luna, Galeforce, Lifetaker, Dual Guard+ and Lucky Seven and I'll start farming Limit Breakers soon. Severa is a bigger mystery though since I'm not a big fan of Wyvern Lords - a part of me wants to just equip her with four Breaker skills, but it'd take ages to farm since she only has Axebreaker so far. Isn't she a good Swordsmaster?
The only real issue with Swordmaster--as I understand it--is that Swords generally can't do ranged damage (with the exception of Ragnell and Levin Swords). That may or may not be a problem in your eyes; if that's fine to you, then Swordmaster could be another path. I mostly didn't consider it because I have never seen it discussed before, other than to say that there are better alternatives. This may, again, be one of those areas where I drew unwarranted assumptions or generalized something I shouldn't have. You probably wouldn't want to do more than three Breakers if you did that, since both LB and GF are such potent benefits.
With a Swordmaster, your Faire is obvious, and I think a Vantage/Vengeance combo is probably the better choice here (though, as always, you can gear for a different proc like Luna or Astra, which gives another skill slot for something like Anathema, L7, All+2, or the like.) It gives the best +Spd bonus possible for pair-up (+10 total), so this can in theory also be useful if you have a boy to pair her with that needs just a little more Spd to reach a cap, though optimizing for that stuff is frankly beyond me.
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I'm having some trouble with my final builds and classes as well for some units, namely Lon'qu!Severa, Gaius!Noire and Robin!Cynthia.
I mean, I guess it doesn't matter since my Nah can't get hurt by mortal men - maybe I should just farm Limit Breaker with her paired up with Chrom and skip the risk of other units dying.
Can't specify Cynthia without knowing the Avatar's stats, but as for the other two:
Gaius!Noire is quite solid as a Sniper, as I understand it. Definitely want LB/GF/Bowfaire; from there you have several great options. She has access to all the general proc skills (Luna, Astra, and Vengeance). Anathema is always a good choice, though Hex is of little value. Lucky Seven is good if you know you can win quickly. Not sure if Dual Guard+ would be worthwhile or not. Any of the Breaker skills would also be nice. I'd (tentatively) recommend LB/GF/Bowfaire/Luna/Anathema. You could go for magic as a Dark Knight or Dark Flier too, though sadly Noire won't get Tomefaire--might be good as a mage-killer with Tomebreaker instead? That's speculative on my part.
Lon'qu!Severa has several options. For physical, I *think* Wyvern Lord is her best choice, though Assassin and Bow Knight are potential alternatives. As usual, LB/GF are a given. Lancefaire is useful for Wyvern Lord; Swordfaire is fine for Assassin/Bow Knight, but not quite as nice (Bowfaire would be better, but LQ!Severa doesn't get it). From there, most of the options are similar to Noire's: Anathema, Hex, Quick Burn, Lucky Seven, Vengeance, Astra. LQ!Severa has a lot of Breaker skills, so Swordbreaker/Bowbreaker can be nice on Wyvern Lord (and Lancebreaker on Bow Knight) to mitigate weapon weaknesses. Tentative recommendation: Wyvern Lord with LB/GF/Lancefaire/Anathema/Astra, though you could also run Vengeance/Vantage instead of the last two.
For magic, Dark Knight and Dark Flier look pretty good--I think Dark Flier looks slightly better, but that could be taste talking. I'd probably go with something like...LB/GF/Vengeance/Vantage/Anathema? Maybe? I'm not entirely sure how to skill her up for magic.
You could also run Vengenace/Vantage on either physical or magical.
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You're welcome
glad I could help you.For the sake of class options for Libra!Inigo what is the best finishing class for him?
Really, he can take either path (magic or physical) and do fine, so it depends on what you want to do with him. If magic, Sage is by far the preferred choice, since it lets him use Staves, has the highest Mag, and provides the best Mag pair-up bonuses (+9 Mag, +7 Skl, +7 Res). If you wanted access to Dark tomes, for Nos-tank shenanigans or whatever, Sorcerer isn't a *bad* plan...but...the sheer flexibility offered by having Staves (and, thus, Rescue!) is difficult to pass up.
If physical, Berserker, since it has very high Str and great pair-up bonuses (+10 Str, +8 Spd). With LB, Libra!Inigo can hit 61 Str as a Berserker, which is damned impressive. I don't *think* there are any other significant alternatives...Zerkers just have a highly optimal package.
Incidentally, this illustrates what I mean by the whole "wasted isn't entirely accurate" thing: when you're already getting good bonuses to key stats, having one that doesn't really help you means only losing, at most, 2-3 points from the absolute maximum pair-up bonus you can get, but can offer really good things in return. For the comparison noted above, a Grandmaster gives 2 less Mag, in exchange for an extra 4 Spd (2 from class bonus, 2 from support-level bonus), and of course the extra Str. That's a trade that is worth making, especially if it gets a character to a Spd breakpoint (or allows you to remove a skill, like +2 Spd).
Edit: Further, this is part of why there isn't a good "close second" Physical class for boys that get Berserker. It's got literally the highest damage-boosting pair-up bonus in the game (+10 Str, in total), and the only other stat it boosts is Spd, which a large amount of Apo optimization centers around (to double, or at least avoid being doubled). Therefore, you're always going to be giving up Str (for both sides of the pair), and it's hard to find a class that gives more Spd. The only options are Great Lord (char-specific), Falcon Knight (female-exclusive), Assassin, and Swordmaster. And of the two that most boys can get, only Assassin still provides a class bonus to Str--so you're trading +1 Spd (and some Lck) for -3 Str, *and* giving up 10 Str on the Assassin himself. It's a raw deal.
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It's not wasted, the +7 Strength is just there and Noire walks aways with +7 Magic/Skill/Speed.
I agree. The only sense in which "unused" boosts are wasted is that maybe you could have gotten a couple more points from running a different class. But given the substantial benefits you get in exchange, having an unused +7 Str is peanuts.
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@Not_the_NSA: I apologize for spreading inaccurate information. I'm still very new to this, and most of my "knowledge" is more rote-memorization of things I've heard from other conversations, which probably had a lot of extra detail I didn't know at the time. Thank you for correcting me. I absolutely hope other, more-experienced players, like you, will do exactly that if I'm in error.
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Once again, thank you once again. I hope to get more advice to make a solid set.
I also meant Vaike!Nah instead of Henry!Nah. I didn't even notice until you mention it.I wanted to use Fred!Inigo but then I thought about Gerome. Although I have no plans to use him in Apo DLC, I still wanted to use in other DLC as I equally like all the childrens,But if I did Fred!Inigo then the only fathers available to him are Libra and Kellam and I don't really know how well they work on Gerome and good set for them and that why I ended with Libra as Inigo's father.
My pleasure. I'm still relatively new to FE:A optimization, but patterns emerge as one examines the data and I'm happy to pass that along (and what others, particularly in this thread, have told me).
It's true that those two aren't your ideal choices for a father on most characters, but then again, Gerome isn't exactly an ideal character to work with in the first place (can't get Galeforce without MaMU as father, Str-focused but doesn't naturally have Berserker). Kellam offers more diverse choices for classes, but the stats are slightly inferior (of the ones worth caring about, it's +1 Str, -1 Mag, -2 Spd, -1 Lck).
Kellam!Gerome has some clear advantages for the physically-inclined, whether he mostly sits in the front or the back. Luna access is good for being in front, and both L7 and DG+ are good pretty much anywhere. Great Knight slightly edges out Wyvern Lord for raw strength, a small boost for a back unit. Libra!Gerome opens the magical path, but in so doing only provides 2 new end-classes (Gerome already has Sage via Priest, and Mage/Dark Mage both give Dark Knight). Libra!Gerome could go either physical, e.g. Wyvern Lord (or Warrior) with LB, Agg, DSup+, Vengeance, Quick Burn(/Swordbreaker if needed) *or* magical, e.g. Sage (or Dread Fighter) with LB, Agg, DSup+, Vengeance, and Tomefaire. So I guess it's "Do you want a flexible front-runner (Libra!Inigo) and a pure-physical male support (Fred!Gerome), or a semi-flexible support (Libra!Gerome) and a pure-physical front runner (Fred!Inigo)?" Both are valid choices.
I actually marry Lucina pretty much every time I don't marry Cordelia so I feel you there man. For the exact same reason as you as well. I'm actually giving Maribelle a shot because of the very first dialogue between you and her where Vaike rips a pretty crazy belch and you comment on having much to learn in those arts. Then Maribelle says how she hoped you were cut from a finer cloth. What she said stuck with me there so I was thinking that Robin would have to prove himself to her as the Shepherds' tactician and it develops from there. But I totally understand wanting to involve a story, I mean I just created one for Maribelle and Robin no? xD
Anyways for pairings here's what I got:
Chrom x Sumia
MaMu x Maribelle (+Mag-Lck MU)
Henry x Cherche
Virion x Cordelia
Stahl x Panne
Vaike x Nowi
Donnel x Sully
Gaius x Tharja
Ricken x Lissa
Gregor x Miriel
Libra x Inigo
I haven't tried quite a few of these pairings so I hope it goes well.
Thanks for the help so far.
These are pretty good. Libra x Inigo is probably the only one I'd quibble about, since (purely IMO) Inigo is most naturally suited to being a physical unit, and you have the option since Fred is unmarried. But you really wouldn't *need* to switch. Anything else is a matter of examining trade-offs or putting a slightly different spin on a character (like switching to Virion x Panne and Stahl x Cordelia--though the latter does give Severa Luna, which is better on a front-runner like a GF girl than it is on a mostly-back-support char like Yarne).
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Libra!Inigo/Gregor!Laurent x (+Spd/-Def) FeMU!Lucina
Chrom!Morgan x Stahl!Severa
Libra!Inigo/Gregor!Laurent x Henry!Cynthia
Ricken!Owain x Henry!Nah
Virion!Yarne x Gaius!Kjelle
Lon’qu!Brady x Donnel!Noire
Frederick!Gerome x Bench
or
Gregor!Laurent/Libra!Inigo x (+Spe/-Def) FeMU!Lucina
Chrom!Morgan x Vaike!Nah
Ricken!Owain x Henry!Cynthia
Stahl!Yarne x Gaius!Kjelle
Libra!Inigo/Gregor!Laurent x Virion!Severa
Lon’qu!Brady x Donnel!Noire
Frederick!Gerome x Bench
I hope you guys don't mind but I would like some opinions on these sets as to which on is better in your view in term of diversity and combat effectiveness. Classes and skillset are also appreciated if you don't mind.
Overall, the first set is looking slightly more favorable than the second, though there are one or two small tweaks.
One: Owain is naturally Mag-leaning and doubly so as Ricken!Owain; Vaike!Nah (I assume you meant this instead of Henry!Nah, since he's needed most on Cynthia) is best for physical stuff, so the pair-up bonuses for their best-choice classes are conflicting rather than harmonious. Better to pair him with someone naturally Magical--like Henry!Cynthia.
Two: Unfortunately, a lot of your Mag-leaning units are boys, making it a challenge to find a good pair for all three of Libra!Inigo, Ricken!Owain, *and* Gregor!Laurent. Would it be possible to swap Libra for Frederick? That would make Inigo a quality physical unit, without unbalancing any of your other pairings. If Libra and Olivia are already married, don't sweat it--it just means you may not be getting the fullest use out of Inigo and whoever he hooks up with.
My recommendations (which are fairly speculative, so definitely seek additional advice before following them):
Ricken!Owain (Sage) x Henry!Cynthia (Dark Flier)
Chrom!Morgan (Berserker) x Vaike!Nah (General w/Axefaire)
Gregor!Laurent (Berserker) x FeMU!Lucina (Wyvern Lord or Bow Knight) [Note: This pair is almost ideally flexible, so Laurent(Sage) x Lucina (Valkyrie or Dark Flier) works too.]
Libra!Inigo (Berserker) x Stahl!Severa (Hero or Bow Knight) [Note: You could also run Libra!Inigo (Sage) x Stahl!Severa (Dark Flier or Sorcerer), as this is a relatively flexible pair.]
Virion!Yarne (Berserker) x Gaius!Kjelle (Wyvern Lord or maaaaaaaybe General)
Lon'qu!Brady (Sage or Dread Fighter) x Donnel!Noire (Valkyrie or Bride) [Note: could also swing physical, with LQ!Brady (Wyvern Lord or Great Knight) x Donnel!Noire (Hero or Bow Knight).]
If you are able (and willing) to switch to Fred!Inigo, ignore the magical set (Inigo won't have access to Sage in the first place).
As usual with skill advice: always have Galeforce if you can get it; have an appropriate Faire if you can get it; put Aggressor on all males if you have the DLC for it; put Limit Breaker on every unit always; for boys that can't get GF (namely Laurent here) give Dual Support+ or another key female-only skill. Decide which unit of the pair is going to spend most of the time "in front," and give that unit one or MAYBE two proc skills, preferably Luna if you can get it, hopefully ones that synergize (e.g. Aether+anything but Lethality; Luna+Ignis; etc. For "hard" maps, Luna > Astra when you have to choose between them.) For characters with access to them, Dual Guard+, Dual Strike+, and Dual Support+ are all really nice skills since they work regardless of being front or back. If, after all of that, you still have a space or two left open, then go for a solid utility skill: Breakers are good, especially to patch a weakness; Deliverer is nice for bonus movement; All Stats +2 can be very useful; Armsthrift is always nice; hit/avo buffs (Lucky Seven, Quick Burn) or enemy debuffs (Anathema) are both great.
Avoid Counter, Lethality, and Sol. The first two are useless in Apo and counter-productive to get them to proc, typically speaking. Sol (and other recovery skills like Lifetaker) are "wasteful" because skillful play should be enough to keep your units alive, and taking a little damage is fine as long as you don't *die* from it. Individual "Stat +2" skills are of narrow application: most of the time they're worthless, but if they get you to a breakpoint (69 or 75 Spd, for instance) then they're awesome.
Edit:
Overall, you certainly have "flexibility" down, with half your pairs being relatively reasonably able to go either Str or Mag based without too much trouble. Some of that flexibility (e.g. Libra!Inigo) comes with a potency/synergy cost, but that's sort of how this kind of thing works.
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Thanks Amiabletemplar. I'll have to see which skill will work to help Owain to do minimal grinding.
What skill should Henry hand down to Noire? I am thinking of despoil simply because I want to have minimal time spent in Golden Gaffe to get extra gold and the more units that have it the better (except for Severa because axfaire!hero might be better than despoil or is despoil a good option for the goal in mind?). He already has counter so there's that as an option as well.
If you're going to have Noire be a Sniper, Bow Knight, Sage, or Sorcerer, there's not a lot of value in Counter--even without considering that it's useless in Apo, Counter does nothing when a character doesn't take direct (e.g. melee) damage. Snipers won't ever (because they can't retaliate in melee) and Tome-users should avoid getting into melee whenever they can, more or less. A Vengence build for a Sage/Sorc (where you plan to take SOME damage) might be vaguely useful, but if that's what you go for, Wrath would be even better since it synergizes with Vengeance. (You're probably still best served by Luna without Counter *or* Vengeance, but these are options you could consider.)
Despoil isn't a bad plan at all. I've learned to love it myself--it's not hard at all to get ~50% chance of extra gold per kill, and that becomes much more valuable than the amount you get just from running a map (you can easily get 6 bullion per map from Despoil, when most maps only give 3 just from drops). Plus, it's extra income while you're specifically wanting to use that character a lot--not a bad combo. It doesn't help you much in the long run, but then again you're looking at pretty low-priority alternatives anyway. Another option, of fairly narrow use, is Axefaire, either for keeping Noire as a General (kind of a waste IMO but you could do it) or for making it easier to grind Great Knight to get Luna.
So yeah: skip Counter because it's too situational and doesn't fit Noire's best classes. Despoil is definitely good to shave off money-grinding time. Wrath pairs nicely with Vengeance, if you choose to use that, but I'm not sure if that is really optimal. Axefaire is a remote possibility, though using it carries a heavy opportunity cost.
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I think that Cordelia's support with Ricken is far worse than Gregor's is. If you wanted to factor in that as well.
Ok, now onto the most pressing issue for me. What should Lon'qu give to Owain? I have Lissa set to give the lad galeforce but as for what Lon'qu has...well I haven't sorted that out yet. Especially since DLC skills are not handed down (damn it). I will also have to work out what to have the Vaike hand down Brady (again mother's skill is set as galeforce). Is axefaire any good for a war monk build?
Both are sort of "whatever you feel like," since the absolute most you can get is "already did the grind on dad so son doesn't have to."
Since Owain starts as a Myrmidon like Lon'qu, your best bet is to give him something that will be immediately useful and would let him skip one of the two default promotions. Unfortunately, you kinda want both of the skills from Swordmaster (Astra is LQ!Owain's only proc, and Swordfaire is his main Faire), but don't really get much out of the two Assassin skills (Pass rarely matters, and Lethality is a very low proc rate early on.) That said, Swordfaire would be immediately useful, and would let you reclass at Swordmaster 5 rather than 15; a very small boost, but worth considering. LQ!Owain is probably still best as a Berserker in the end, though, so this may not amount to a substantial time savings. Any other skill you pass down, you're basically just "pre-grinding," that is, grinding up the parents so then the kids start out a little better.
Axefaire would be good if you plan to go War Monk, though War Monk isn't a very good class. If you want to do staff stuff, Sage is way better (but wastes that Str bonus from Vaike), and if you want to do Str stuff, Berserker is way better. If you want to leverage both Str and Mag, Dread Fighter is better. The only situation I can think of where you'd want War Monk is if Brady is supporting a female who needs a Str boost, but you need Brady to provide staff support--but that's a silly combination, since you can easily find a different boy to provide physical support (like Owain) and have Brady support a Mag girl (e.g. a Dark Flier Cynthia). Vaike!Brady gets a little benefit from Axefaire while going through Great Knight to get Luna, but since you really want to pass through Cavalier as well (to get Discipline, since I know you like to max out weapon skills) it's not immediately useful.
TL;DR:
Doesn't *really* matter. Swordfaire for LQ!Owain and Axefaire for Vaike!Brady are fine, but almost anything would be "fine." For Owain, Deliverer, Lucky Seven, Quick Burn, or a Breaker would be fine alternatives. For Brady, Counter, Sol, Lucky Seven, or Wrath would probably all be fine too. Do whatever you feel like; probably, that means doing whatever you already have on hand.
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Because Gregor!Severa's is much more redder than Ricken's. o3o
I've never paired Cordelia with either one, so I don't know how it looks on the 3DS screen...but the Wiki image is imperceptibly different to my eyes. When I c/p and crop the image to just those two, and zoom in really close, I can see that Ricken!Severa's hair is ever so slightly darker, perhaps with a very slight purple/burgundy shift. But otherwise, the two are almost exactly identical.
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Thanks again for that input. Just for clarification, if it's possible to beat it without recruiting any children, just how poorly is it possible to even mismatch the 2nd Gen units? Sil3nt 4sh has children pairings, but if I choose a different set of supports, will it make Apotheosis considerably more difficult, or do the pairings in the 2nd Gen matter less?
Sorry if the question seems excessively nitpicky, I'm just trying to understand what makes good support pairings in 2nd Gen units. Recommendations are awesome, but I'd really like to know the reasoning behind choices in this game (or any game really).
Who your supports are matters somewhat, but not dramatically. That is, you don't really want to pair a character with a high Mag/low Str class (like Sage or Dark Flier) with a character who will mostly use Str and ignore Mag (e.g. Berserker, Hero, Bow Knight, etc.) because you'll be "wasting" useful stat bonuses. But, because of the flexibility of fathers for most kids, you can almost always focus a particular character, or even several characters, on whatever it is you want from them and then find good matches from there.
For example, Inigo is naturally inclined toward physical stuff because of his stats and class inheritance from Olivia. So, in general, he works best either supporting a physically-oriented girl with Galeforce (say, Donnel!Kjelle), or as a male lead with a physically-oriented supporting girl who doesn't have GF (e.g. Noire if her dad isn't Gaius, Donnel, or MaMU). But if his dad is Ricken (or maybe Libra, to get Dark Mage too), Inigo will work as a perfectly fine Mag unit, and can support a magically-inclined girl (like Henry!Cynthia).
Really, there are only two/three parents you have to worry about. The first is Chrom, because you absolutely don't want to end up with him marrying the Maiden (and while it won't kill you, it does hurt to lose GF by marrying Sully). The second is Sumia: counting Chrom and the male Avatar, she only has 5 marriage choices, as opposed to the usual 13 (counting MaMU but not Chrom). In a file where a female Avatar marries Chrom, like I did with my most recent file, Sumia has only three possible husbands compared to 12 for all the other moms--and Gaius is already needed to help give Galeforce to a girl who wouldn't normally have it, so I only really had two options (Fred and Henry). The potential third parent is, of course, the Avatar--only because his/her presence can "free up" a dad you might have used elsewhere (e.g. +Str/-Def MaMU x Cordelia makes an excellent Severa--probably freeing up Lon'qu, Stahl, or Gregor), and because you ideally want to have Avatar stats that synergize with the natural direction of the children they'll have (so Owain generally wants a +Mag dad, while Kjelle generally wants a +Str dad).
From there, it's mostly a matter of determining what roles you want the other kids to fill, and pairing them up to try to match that as much as possible. As long as you avoid super-heavy class-overlap parents (like Gregor!Inigo, as I mentioned before), most kids have access to at least *one* class that boosts the stats you care about. Some are, of course, better than others, e.g. Sage is the highest +Mag, Berserker is huge +Str *and* +Spd with no "wasted" points on Def or Res, etc. Sometimes you just have to grin and bear it, though, like with Nah; the best physical class she can run is usually General (if she inherits it) or Wyvern Lord (if not), which is one reason why people often bench her if Morgan isn't "3rd gen."
So: don't sweat the support pairings TOO much. As long as you can mostly pair physical to physical and magical to magical, you'll be golden; even if you end up with a pair or two where one is Mag-focused and the other is Str-focused, it's not the end of the world. Even that shouldn't be hard to avoid though. It's hard to give many specifics, since dads can change the focus of their kids a lot, but for example most Kjelles will probably pair well with Inigo, while most Cynthias will probably pair well with Owain. Just think about the kind of units the parents are (especially the father), and let that inform your choices for which children should pair up. You can always run it past the thread, if you want critique or advice!
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Thanks for the advice!
Is Virion X Gerome really that unsalvageable (Is it so bad that I won't actually be able to complete Apotheosis with it? is what I'm asking)
To add a little onto what the others have already said:
Optimization in Awakening as I understand it is not a matter of "these things are good and those things are awful." In fact, it's pretty damn hard to truly "screw up" a child character. Even the really inadvisable combinations (like Gregor!Inigo, who gets *zero* new classes) are more a matter of "not as good" rather than "bad." Probably the only "bad" choice in the entire game is allowing Chrom to marry the Maiden rather than one of his potential brides--at least Sully gives additional classes and stats, for instance, though other moms give even more (e.g. Galeforce).
More or less, when someone recommends that you change to X instead of Y, it's not "Y is bad and X is good," it's "Y isn't as good as X." That "not as good" may be efficiency, it may be flexibility, it may be a slight drop in raw power--there's a lot of directions that can go. Honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if an intentionally "sub-optimized" set of children was still plenty good for tackling Apo. It might be more challenging, or more sensitive to mistakes/miscalculations/etc. during the fight, but it won't prevent you from tackling Apo. In fact, as I understand it, it's possible to complete all the DLC, including Apo, without recruiting any children (except Lucina, of course)--it's just harder.
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Yeah, Axefaire is really the only highly-desirable skill for dads to pass down to their daughters. (Well, I guess Donny's Aptitude/Underdog might also count, but those aren't really "highly" desirable--they're just not as bad as Counter and less situational than Wrath.
Though I'm curious, Not_The_NSA: is 100% Dual Strike even possible? S support gives (sum of skill)/4 + 60. Add another 10 for Dual Strike+ gives you 70. So it's simple algebra to solve for the sum of skill values: Skl total = 4*(100-70) = 4*30 = 120. With tonics (two +2s so +4 total) and the base pair-up bonus (+3), I suppose that takes it down to 113 total...but it still sounds like it would be hard to reach. Without Dual Strike+, you're looking at an extra 40 points, which makes it essentially impossible to hit--even with tonics, All+2, LB, a +Skl/-Def Avatar parent, and all the Rallies you can get, you're still only looking at each one getting, roughly, (62+2+2+4+4+2) = 76, which means 152 combined, +3 base pairup, + 3 best class bonus for pairup, +2 to class bonus from S support = 160...so I guess you can achieve it if you blow literally all of your resources on it. Seems like a bit of a waste, though--is the difference between 90% and 100% really that dramatic? I honestly wouldn't know.
The Pairing Thread
in Fire Emblem: Awakening
Posted
I'm afraid I don't quite have the brainpower to do a proper analysis here, but more or less you end up with the following calculus:
1. Chrom MUST marry someone, because the Maiden is *the worst* parent, bar none, since she gives nothing at all. Sully is strongly discouraged because she is the only mom that won't give Galeforce access, and missing it is criminally wasted potential. However, Chrom only has four possible wives (ignoring the Avatar): Sully, Maribelle, Sumia, Olivia. Since Sully's out, most people choose either Sumia or Olivia.
2. Sumia needs to be your next choice, because she also has an unusually limited pool of options. Her only valid husbands (excluding the Avatar) are Chrom, Frederick, Gaius, and Henry. Gaius is strongly discouraged because he can give Nah/Kjelle/Noire GF, and you've already decided Chrom will marry someone else. Thus, your only choices are Frederick and Henry; Fred!Cynthia is kind of meh, since the only real gain is the Wyvern Rider line, whereas Henry!Cynthia has decent overall mods and the best Mag mod (+2) that Cynthia can get.
3. Get your two "optional" Galegirls: any one of Gaius, and Donnel, x Tharja/Nowi/Sully. Typical choice is Gaius x Tharja and Donnel x Sully, because Donnel!Kjelle loses little from getting Donnel's crappy stat mods, but gains a wealth of class options (Donnel!Kjelle is the only child, AFAIK, that gets 7 class-lines, though Knight/Cavalier naturally has some overlap).
4. Pick everyone else.
You don't want to lose out on any of the children, and Cynthia is a pretty good unit, so Sumia's small pool of options leaves you with *very* few choices if you don't marry her to Chrom or the Avatar. However, if you're okay with Fred!Cynthia, that frees up Henry to be a dad for a son that wouldn't normally get Berserker (e.g. Gerome).