incognit0
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Posts posted by incognit0
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Even if Masteries weren't automatic kills, third tier units are trained to the point where they should be one rounding well over half the map. I like the fact that they can auto kill enemies that otherwise would not be one rounded.
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Furthermore, you can pump her with resources and get a flying ORKO machine; with base 11 strength and two from promotion, transfer and the energy drop she 2RKOs generals and ORKOs everything else on the map (besides the Myrms Sothe kills) – with a Hand axe.
11 + 2 + 2 +2 + 9 = 26 Atk
15 + 2 = 17 AS
Kindly demonstrate this with enemy stats.
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Well, Nolan can have an A support with Edward at this point (or in 1-7 at the latest), which reduced Jill's defense lead to 2 (and gives Nolan an avoid lead). Nolan also has more durability against Mages (they often 2HKO Jill sans Seraph Robe). Jill (T) can double all Armors and Mages (which Nolan only occasionally doubles) and some Soldiers, Fighters, and Archers, so she does have the offensive edge in 1-6 and 1-7. The enemies in 1-E are stupidly fast, so Jill (T) is unlikely to double them (except the Armors and Mages).
1-1 is almost a Nolan solo, so he can gain 2 levels here (or very close to it). Level 15 by 1-6 only assumes 1 level per chapter for the remaining chapters, which is very realistic (he'll probably get more in 1-4).
As posters above mentioned, you are overestimating his support and leveling speed. He will not have what you propose at that time.
Nolan's earlygame is the best thing in his favor versus Jill(T). However, she has instant utility in 1-6-1 if you crown her and let her drop Taur around. Furthermore, you can pump her with resources and get a flying ORKO machine; with base 11 strength and two from promotion, transfer and the energy drop she 2RKOs generals and ORKOs everything else on the map (besides the Myrms Sothe kills) – with a Hand axe. Nolan can never catch her from there, as his only chapters superior to Jill at that point are 1-8 and 3-6. He also has early wins from 1-1, 1-2 and 1-4, but in other chapters he is only around for self improvement.
I also believe that aku chi said they are equal in part 4, which is just laughable. Jill's flying is incredibly more valuable than anything Nolan brings. Greil army is already stacked with powerhouses like Ike, Nailah, Titania, and either Mia (N) or Boyd (T) (in a transfer run). Stick him there, and he looks underleveled/won't contribute with others doing the heavy lifting. Send Nolan to Hawk and he helps for one map and faces movement penalties. In Silver, he is too slow to be in on the 4-P blitz, and in 4-3 he needs to be ferried around... by people like Jill.
I still think that right above the Hawks would be a good place for Jill (T). She was invaluable when I did my run, anyways.
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The Tempest Blade is likely more suitable to set up a 1-turn clear of 4-5. Certainly, that's how I prefer to use it.
Really? You can easily 1 turn 4-5 with Elincia using Rescue and Volke. Seems like a waste of resources, especially since it is so easy to ship rescue over from 4-4. I personally rescue Titania up the ledge turn 1, rescue whoever kills the near treasure room towards the stairs turn 2, Hammerne it, and have Heather send it over for use in 4-5.
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Ilyana does not become great in normal mode. We aren't looking for characters with lots of availability; we are looking for characters who are available for lots of chapters where they are useful. Ilyana can be made useful but she is never great. Has problems in 6 mov and her weak stat spread. High is too High.
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Here is a question for the future... what skills should I keep in the DB? I am thinking Laura will only need Resolve, and I should just send Paragon to the GMs, but I'm not sure.
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My only comment:
I don't think that we need to go through inaccurate mathematical calculations to come to the conclusion Fiona isn't good. Furthermore, I have no clue why you brought this up; you say you have no clue why people say Fiona is "useable", yet you won't consider inefficient play. People have different definitions of "useable" and often they do not include inefficient play. Therefore this does not refute anything. I doubt that anyone is trying to argue Fiona is amazing on an efficient playthrough, and also don't believe we need this madness to refute that argument.
Plus, I reject that your sample size is large enough to simulate true BEXP, and consider it the inherent flaw of your analysis that we don't know the formula for BEXP.
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I've heard that any unit "is usable" or "can be good" in NM. I thought to myself: "Really? Even Fiona!?" This thought experiment is meant to explore how Fiona performs in NM if we give her all of the DB's Bexp. I will assume efficient play - with the exception of this resource distribution choice. I'll be comparing her to Jill that takes no Bexp along the way, because these units have similar growth spread and movement. It has been observed that Bexp level-ups tend to disproportionately favor higher growth stats. As a heuristic to emulate Bexp level-ups, I will alternate between simply raising the 3 stats with the highest growths and increasing each stat by: [growth * (3 / total growths)]. Let us begin:
Level 17 Fiona - 26.5 HP, 9.3 Str, 6.5 Mag, 9.3 Skl, 16 Spd, 12.8 Lck, 13.8 Def, 7.7 Res
Fiona is a piece of crap. But your method exaggerates this quite a bit. Her Str growth is 40, which is only 15 lower than Lck and Def. You only have Fiona gaining 1.3 points of Str and 1.7 points of Res (only .5 less than Def and Lck) while she gains 5.8 points of Def and Lck. Look at the 50% growth with the 55% growth; it's over a 4 point difference! That's simply not realistic; it is why any mathy manipulation of BEXP is ultimately doomed to fail.
But, once again, I didn't exactly need this to know Fiona was a piece of crap.
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incognit0, it's incorrect to state that Shinon has no enemy phase. You've disregarded my posts explaining how Shinon's enemy phase with crossbows is similarly valuable to Oscar's enemy phase pre-promotion. And Shinon's EP with Aqqar is respectable, if unspectacular.
I assumed you were not referring to Crossbow on 3-10 because: he cannot 1RKO Paladins with Crossbow, and Paladins who get behind you can kill Mist/Rhys/untransformed Laguz (and I though Mist/Rhys was supporting Shinon anyways). I did not consider Aqqar on 3-E or 4-1, although it holds similar problems if you want to assume that Mist/Rhys is supporting him. If not, sure, he has an EP. It is uninspiring though.
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Oscar is a terrible fit for Hawk Army because of the thickets.Have you really thought this through? Thickets don't inhibit him as much as ledges or desert. Plus, 7 mov units are only better through thickets when you go through 3 of them in one move.
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How substantial is Oscar's mobility advantage?
3-P: Oscar has slightly (due to thickets) better movement than Shinon. But Shinon has better player phase offense, Ballista utility, and doesn't have to worry about the Horseslayer General, so this is no win for Oscar.
Shinon can't utilize player phase offense due to the mad dash through the thickets and Rolf can use Ballista anyways.
3-1: This is a condensed rout chapter with high enemy density. Oscar's extra movement can't be utilized because he's not very durable. Shinon has better offense.
3-2: Shinon is better at killing/damaging the boss, but he needs to be shoved/ferried. Oscar can help clear the way with his better movement.
3-3: There's plenty to do in this chapter, but Oscar's superior movement does give him more opportunities to be helpful
3-4: Shinon can climb up the ledges while Oscar has better movement otherwise - seems like a draw.
Neither is necessary in this chapter.
3-5: Finally Oscar has a clear win thanks to his mobility.
Nope; Oscar has a clear win in 3-3 as well.
3-7: Neither makes the chapter faster, but Oscar can't get nearly as much Cexp due to being stuck near the starting island.
3-8: Indoors. Canto is a minor boon for Oscar to help him get into vigor positions. But Shinon wins combat unless we crowned Oscar. If we crowned Oscar, Oscar clearly wins.
3-10: Oscar's mobility is helpful again. But it's a rout, so Shinon's contributions are meaningful, too.
Shinon's contributions? What contributions? Ike and Mia/Ulki take the south, Haar/Titania/Janaff/Oscar take the north. Shinon is hampered by the large threat ranges of Paladins he cannot counter. The map is too wide open.
3-11: Both have to avoid potholes. Shinon can use his superior 2-range to snipe at enemies behind obstacles, but Oscar can get to the east if we have fliers block potholes for him.
Neither one does much.
3-E: Oscar can expose himself to more enemies, but he needs to be careful due to his mediocre durability.
Shinon has better offense, but can't do much without the ability to counter on such a wide open map.
4-1 (assuming both go): FOW + poor durability means that Oscar can't make very good use of his mobility.
FOW means Shinon can't make very good use of his offense, period.
4-4: Shinon can climb ledges. Oscar needs to go the long way around or just stick to the bottom. If he had any offense, he would be decently valuable down there just as Shinon is valuable in the north. Unfortunately, Oscar struggles to double and 2HKO.
4-E: 9 mov + canto would be nice if Oscar had some offense, but so is Shinon's 3-range.
Also, Oscar is a great fit for Hawk. You don't want to send a great unit there because it is one combat chapter. Oscar can move through the map in a timely manner and he can manufacture offense with Resolve, Brave Lance, and Forges.
I would think that Boyd would prefer to support Shinon over Oscar. Boyd and Shinon share the same movement, so they're more likely to stay within support range. Plus, Boyd appreciates the concrete defense boost of thunder, because he's never going to be an avoid tank. Also, you forgot about Mist (who shares movement with Shinon and is a good bet to be in play all the way up to 4-4) and Rhys (who has similar movement, but might head elsewhere in Part 4). So there are 4 realistic +atk support options for Shinon who share movement and availability and want durability.
Boyd needs to be on the front lines, Shinon can't. Mist and Rhys are better options (although one might be taken by Titania).
Oscar (T) is a different story and is rightfully over Shinon.
Slip of the tongue.
I don't think Shinon is that bad, but he just isn't that useful. He could stand to drop, but he certainly shouldn't rise (which is how this discussion started).
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Oscar's best advantage over Shinon exists in 3-10, 3-E and Part 4. 3-10 Crowned Oscar is really good. Unless you got both energy drops, only one of Janaff/Ulki will be in play. Oscar is the 4th 9 mov unit to head northeast to the boss area, and his great mov plus Horseslayer access makes him critical. 3-E Oscar is also very useful, due to his mov and enemy phases.
aku chi, you are right. Shinon is better than a gimped Oscar. However, I don't know if there is a clearly better candidate to get the crown, and Shinon isn't exactly blowing up 3-8 with a Crossbow either. Crowned Oscar (T) can contribute in Parts 3 and 4 due to his 9 mov and EP.
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I dunno, I've always use provoke in a defensive manner with Shinon. I've never really seen a lot of bad when it comes to less EP damage, I guess.
Provoke attracts enemy attacks. It is better for the player to have that unit able to attack back. Not a hard concept to grasp.
Well, I could use that arguement to say that a character like Edward is a great unit to sink exp. Giving him some bonus EXP is not such a bad idea to level him up toward promotion, really, and with support bonuses( like Nolan's) he becomes a beast. He's also there from the first, so its easy to give him training and supports.Yet Edward is in Mid-mid.
Edward's doubling is incredibly shaky, as even someone like Annouleth will admit. Also, the DB doesn't have enough BEXP to do what you are saying anyways. You have to spend it all to get a unit who still has questionable durability, questionable 1RKOs and bad 1-2 range.
Also even though Oscar can be good if EXP is given to him, he suffers the paladin curse unfortunately: low stat caps and bad part 4. If we consider tier list based on usefulness, then surely Shinon is much more useful here: He has sustained utility throughout the game, doesn't suffer movement issues( such as 3-4, 3-7 and 4-4) and has great utility. Heck, he's even better than Oscar in the desert though they have about the same movement as he's most likely a marksman by then(+1 range), he has silencer, killer bow and double bow utility, all of wihich help his case throughout the game.
Oscar is a great candidate for the 3-7 crown: Titania can promote naturally, Haar already has a crown, and you don't have another 9 mov unit that needs a crown. Once again, I have no clue what this sustained utility is; there isn't a map besides 3-2 where his characteristics are suited to important combat.
Oscar suffers from a low strength growth, which does not help in speedrunning in any case. In hard mode especially(we are talking about hard mode, right?) his speed will remain mediocre due to a bad cap of 24. So there, his biggest strength is limited by his biggest flaw. Oscar will remain as a unit who only doubles sages and does even lesser damage than Shinon. To hell with EP face if you're giving more chances of getting damaged and doing little damage yourself. Damage<Killing in speedruns, and Shinon wins in this. Also he's not doing better or worser than Shinon as both of them suffer flaws which inhibit both of them in some way or the other. You're better off using someone who has flight or magic rather than those two( except that Shinon can one-shot hawks and ravens, something Oscar can't do)
The 3-7 crown helps Oscar volumes. It can't have more cost than promoting Shinon (who won't promote naturally without copious amounts of BEXP or a crown too) and Oscar has an enemy phase.
Nephenee is the same except she has more potential than Oscar, but as I said, if we're talking about units with potential, Edward should be way up. Nephenee also needs BEXP to function, something not necessary to Shinon. Oh, did I forget to mention she needs mooch kills when she comes to the GMs?
Nephenee is, like Shinon and Oscar, a unit who takes up considerable resources, but, once again, like Oscar, she actually kills stuff.
Shinon can have better combat than Nephenee and Oscar. However, if we are trying to complete maps in a timely fashion, it is necessary to have enemies suicide on EP. If Shinon can't give counters, he can't be on the front lines. We do not have enough units or time to form a defensive line. So Shinon lags behind and does not get many kills. Not getting many kills both does not help us, and forces us to feed Shinon BEXP to maintain superior combat. However, Shinon will never help us very much because he cannot give counters. Shinon is high because he is useable if you do not train him, and if you do sink resources into him, he can kill one unit on PP. Based on this information I think Shinon's position is generous, and I do not think he should be above Boyd (T).
EDIT: So what do people think about Boyd (T) and Jill (T)?
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Also, perhaps Shinon should go up.
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It is generous to put Shinon where he is, frankly. Unless you dawdle in Part 3, there isn't much experience to go around; one of your goals is to distribute it to the people who will use it to help handle Part 4. Shinon's lack of an EP is a double whammy in this case: it hurts him from getting EXP, meaning he needs more BEXP, and it also makes his Part 4 pretty bad. To be honest, I never train Shinon when I am moving with some speed. Also, WTF is with Shinon keeping Provoke? That is a gross misuse of a valuable resource. He doesn't have a useable EP and that is that when it comes to Provoke.
Meanwhile, Oscar is actually good if you sink resources into him. 1-2 range, good mobility, and decent tier 3 stats make him ideal for Tibarn's route, where you don't have to train him to be great in order for him to be hugely effective. Nephenee is also a resource sink, and she performs a similar function; she is borderline with ORKOs as much as Oscar is borderline doubling. Cross team comparisons are so ugly, but Nolan and Jill have Shinon beat everywhere. Better long term usage, more valuable to their team. I have no clue what you mean by comparing them to Shinon in 3-6; their contributions are not their stats. Shinon has good stats but struggles due to bow lock. Like I said before, I think his current position is pretty generous.
I certainly don't think he is better than Boyd (T) (whom I think is underrated) and think he is also significantly worse than Jill (T).
Then again, how many people use transfers? Are Annouleth, Xander and I the only ones to do HM transfer playthroughs? It is hard to get a grasp for what transfers do to the game with the theoretical.
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I restarted through 1-4 after hearing about PKL doing so well. I cut two turns. However, on 1-6-1, for a four turn Resolve! Micaiah needed to dodge 6 enemies with around 50% hit rates and Sothe needed to proc Adept on a general. Micaiah dodged the six enemies. Sothe didn't proc Adept. I died a little inside.
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Titania and Haar aren't getting BEXP from 0 to 100. It is wasteful to BEXP from 0 to 100 unless you are doing it all on one unit; I think you are underestimating the value of the BEXP. Topping off several levels at .70 and higher is more realistic.As I said, that's less than half of the 17000 BEXP available. And Kyza takes the BEXP late.
It's not about being "realistic". I don't care what a "real" player does. But the opportunity cost of that BEXP isn't overwhelming. It's what, two levels for Titania or Haar? Obviously, it has a cost, but it's not a large one.
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One thing that is still hard to take is Jill (T) below the Hawks. They are locked to 1-range, don't have a turn 1 PP or EP (except in part 4; you only have so many stones), and come on a team that is already comparatively loaded. With transfers, Jill goes over a lot of thresholds for doubling and has an easier time 1RKOing. Give Jill all the stat boosters and she can solo part 3 essentially (that's what I did in my PT) and is also incredible on Micaiah's route. The thing that is holding Jill (N) back, the slow start, doesn't exist for Jill (T); with a seal and the stat boosters, Jill can actually take on the west in 1-6-1 with some minor help from Sothe. No Tauroneo drop. With that kind of start and considering she is with the DB, I just don't see the Hawks over her. Jill uses those resources the best, and it isn't like there is too much competition except for the energy drop, but Volug does admirably without it. Nolan is simply not worth the risk of getting screwed when you have Jill (T). If he gets screwed in Str, Spd, or Def it is hard to make it up; Jill's better bases and flight help her shine.
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Come to think of it, why is Leonardo over Ilyana? There isn't a good chipping chapter till 1-4 maybe, and Ilyana is far better than him there. I don't see what he has going for him at all.
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Haar should have his own tier. Seriously, even with transfers, Ike can't touch him. Haar can just do things that Ike will never be able to challenge. I've played with transfers on Ike; it makes him better than he is. But Haar is already above him not due to their combat, but due to Haar's flight and axe usage. Ike is good but not worthy of being in the same tier as Haar; an analogous situation would be Metaknight's position on top of the Brawl tier list.
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I think Haar should be placed onto the list, for starters. His own tier would be nice. In fact, I have no clue why he doesn't have his own tier on the regular tier list.
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I doubt it would change very much to be honest. Bases still rule over growths, just that characters with good move but average stats (eg. Marcia, Oscar (N), etc.) would be better. Remember, for every unit that goes up, another goes down. Maybe the bottom tiers would shift some, and laguz might go down some (good beorcs means that gauge and 1 range lock hurt more, also less strike) but that's about it.
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Well, after hearing about all these ridiculous turn counts, I went back and played through 1-2, shaving a turn in 1-1 and one in 1-2. I should've shaved two in 1-2 but accidentally failed to equip Kard on a necessary turn. I still have no chance of getting below 70 turns with Laura. I hope Titania was worth it!
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I know there's one in Part 1, but when do you get the other one?
There is one in 2-E and one in 3-5.
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Yeah even with transfers, Neph has issues due to that damn lance of hers. Plus in order to prevent Heather from doing really stupid shit, Neph has to haul ass to get to her. That freaking lance....ugh! It weighs her down so bad! Shes often not even hitting the boss.
Not sure what you mean about her having problems with transfers. With transfers she doubles the entire map and 2RKO's the armors blocking the path to Yeardley, so yeah it isn't bad. Plus, when you consider it is a clean 3HKO, she only really has to face 1 EP from the armor. Her accuracy is spotty but not too bad. She can literally just chill in the boss' area until Brom recruits Heather. That's why the map is so easy with transfers.
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2-1 is just way too luck based. I don't like being forced to use only two units that I don't really like, especially when they're not very good. And it feels stupid because some of the difficulty comes from Nephenee getting weighed down by her weapon, and Brom being stuck with a shitty Iron Axe.
Don't you have transfers? Neph T absolutely destroys everyone in that chapter. It is awesome.
OMG it's a tier list
in Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn
Posted
It is definitely best to give Jill paragon. I'm fairly certain it gives her better levels than Beastfoe from using Jill (T) many times on hard mode, and it also allows someone else (Volug or Nolan) to make good use of Beastfoe. Admittedly, I did clear 3-6 a turn or two slow in my playthrough. I do agree, however, that Jill (T) is pretty baller.