[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

46 minutes ago, Etheus said:

There are a few problems with your criteria.

1) Equal or near equal representation for all games is implausible or even outright silly. Roster sizes vary by game, as do the number of important, iconic characters.

2) Focus games are good for coherent storytelling and leave more room for sequels. 

3) All dlc characters have one thing in common. They are not important to the plot of Warriors. Even Azura - arguably the most plot important character in Fates, is irrelevant to the Hoshido vs. Nohr family decision that IS and KT chose to focus on for this game. The idea of slotting in plot important characters like Ryoma and Leo as dlc is simply asinine at best. Dlc is for characters that have popularity but lack importance to the chosen plotline.

4) You ask that popularity and storyline importance be secondary to "uniqueness," but that simply isn't plausible. Koei has to represent the series as effectively and concisely as possible. That means that popularity and storyline importance are by far the most important criteria. It then becomes Koei's job to make their selections feel unique to play.

1) roster sizes vary by games true that why i suggested an non equal roster with 5! games giving fates more reps then the other games.

2) I have focus games as well just two more.

3) Of course you would have to change the plot of this warriors game obviously. And i also suggested a roste including the characters you mentioned please take everything i said in consideration.

4) Uniqueness is something Folt demanded to be in and be exclusive to fates. And I balanced uniqueness with importance.

I want at some point sooner rather than later to represent the series you make it sound i like i want all games in FEW 1 no matter what despite me making compromise after compromise in reducing the games.

44 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

You can use DLC to patch up Fates. You won't be able to use DLC to add the sequels and patch up everything else. Meaning you will end up with half-assed content throughout your entire roster by being too greedy with the number of games.

That's the difference between DLC here and in your roster. DLC in our world just completes what the 3 focus games needed to be fully represented where it doesn't hurt another game.

Yes, why is Celica or Alm important. It's not like they are the lords of the most recent game or anything. I'm starting to think you're just a troll between these things and the rushed writing. I'd say maybe you're just a kid but wanting classic FE and being a kid at this point, unlikely.

A clone can only be a clone if there is an original. The characters you chose instead of the clones for the most part don't. 

Mist and Elise is nothing about uniqueness. You simply took Elise out, added Mist, and said "Valkyrie get" as if Elise didn't represent that anyways in all but name. That's all I pointed out. You didn't "add" a class with that trade.

You want a game that had more money and time pumped into it. That's fine. But trying to offer your idea as 'they could've done that' when they couldn't even complete the NPCs? Delusional.

Black Knight is not just a villain. He was a playable character. And unlike the Robin clone trio, he is a popular character. The Dark Mages were intentionally chosen to be the unpopular guys so that the fanbase wouldn't want them in like they did with Hyrule Warriors, allowing them to focus on other people.

I said nothing about excluding laguz for fates. Fates doesn't compete for uniqueness with Laguz. I said that Fates's unique characters trump people from the same classes, and that holds true just for the ones that got in, aside from clones.

Again, it's not little difference. You cut clones and added 100% original characters. You cut alt.costumes and added 100% original characters or clones. That's not how it works. It's easier to make a "better" game if you give yourself more resources, any monkey can pull that off.

 

I never once said dlc would add new games. The dlc would cover focus games in my variant as well.

Again you are ok giving a character like celica or alm barebones representation or missing eachother as counterpart.

Characters can share certain moves or some attacks without being outright clones but having similar areas of effect in there attacks reducing work.

Ok Troubadour lose Valkyrie get or sword valkyrie get magic valkyrie lose.

It's delusional for me to think they could put more effort in one part of the game. Like i said and you didn't read or ignored again one could make the compromise by removing one character.

Black Knight for the most part is a villain. He's predestined for something like being a lu bu(dynasty warriors) of this game. You could add him later down the line, but him as enemy in his first appearence would make much more sence considering he wasn't playable ( in story mode ) untel the second game.

The laguz argument is another instance of compromise you want me to cut down work but you deny me to cut down work at places you care for.

Changing 8 characters giving the overall size of the game, the fact that half can be straight up clones and the other half can have shared moves, hitboxes thereof and such and the fact im willing to remove one character if it isn't possible in the time given makes it possible.

And before you again only read half my post and use what you need to make your argument work yes i now have less (24) but i have some more uniqueness that you need to add later, because at some point you have to cover the games, characters, classes i covered likewise do i.

That said im not gonna comment anymore, because it isn't fun discussing things with someone unwilling take other opinions into consideration and maybe help thinking of something better together.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

4 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

You are using DLC to patch up holes when you already said all the sequels (and most likely JUgdral and Magvel) would be getting DLC packs. It's a lot to handle and since Zelda only got 3 character DLC packs at base (For 8 movesets) it's ABSURDLY unlikely for you to patch up all of the holes in your roster since it's gunning for every FE. You aren't getting that much more DLC than Zelda did even with clones (note that right now we have 6,5 unique movesets for DLC, with Oboro counting as half and assuming only the other NPCs are clones).

You are missing far too much stuff to tackle in a single game, but when you come at us with the pretense of repping the whole series, the product will just come across as disappointing to every side of the fanbase rather than at least make the currently most important side happy.

Lucina comes from a place where it doesn't matter. Your roster is literally impossible without her at base as a clone or otherwise. And without one of Celica or Alm,your roster is also impossible.

Hector cannot share stuff with Lissa. They don't have the same build and Lissa is built to have an axe moveset coming from a little girl that can barely stand the weapon's weight. Hector is a huge guy. It's not happening. Similarly, Ike's uses a 2H sword while nobody else does this. His moveset needs a sort of weight to it and cloning from the faster swordsmen would be a disaster. This is just not how cloning works

Mist doesn't bring up a whole lot of uniqueness in a game where Xander does Sword Pony but better. If she's not a clone and that won't fly because of Xander's abuse of darkness effects and range, she's simply a bad pick like Navarre/Lyn was for the game we got.

I fully realize Jeorge was a placeholder of sorts. But i felt the need to point it out because he is not a viable pick when cloning from Takumi and neither was Anna, whom i suspect got in the way she is as a F you from KT to IS/ninty for forcing their hand like that, and simply a result of you being unwilling to take the better choice for Bow2 in Sakura because of some contrived idea about slots-per-game, prefering instead to take a less unique, less important, less popular, less recent character that doesn't even cater much to the fanbase he belongs to beyond simply being an extra number in the slot math.

I have no problem with unique stuff, it certainly beats most if not all clone picks one can make. But it's very easy to make a "better" roster than KT when you give yourself the money and time to make so many more unique movesets. We got a game with 15 movesets at base and 8 clones, and we were supposed to get an extra base moveset in Oboro if not for Anna/Lyn/Celica being forced. So 16+8 is more or less the standard you should aim unless you are doing a "just for fun" roster. You are instead offering a serious alternative for the roster, supposedly, but one that is considerably more expensive/time-consuming and of all things you suggest cutting alternate costumes and adding 100% original characters in their place. Realistically unfeasible, idealistically will be better by sheer numeric advantage. It serves no purpose.

It's not in IS or Nintendo or KT's best interest to rep all the games in one go. Not only all of them realize this will just half-ass every entry they include, but it makes the games they CAN sell well at this point in time (Awakening and Fates) have a reduced spotlight. Look at Heroes. They are always doing Awakening/Fates for special heroes because they want to cater to their biggest fanbase AND try to get more people to bolster this number. Lastly, they also want enough content to make future warriors special and noteworthy.

Look at the roster we got, with the planned DLC.

Fates will be basically 100% done. All of the royals are in and they double not only as the game's most important characters, but as the biggest faces. Niles and Oboro tackle the important nobody slots, and thanks to them and the royals being so popular, the only noteworthy picks the game is missing is Jakob and that's because the game has no daggers. He's only the 4th top male in Japan, while everyone else form the top 7 of both genders are already in.

Awakening's 3 lords are in covering all of the importance slots. Frederick and Lissa are strong faces for the game, while Tharja, Cordelia, Owain and Olivia fill the popular nobody slots. The only big missing people are Severa who would never get in because of her bland moveset, and Gaius who is probably damned because of future picks. (Sothe is bound to be in the next game if it's a Tellius deal, and Gaius's moveset comes too close to what he'd do). The popular characters we are missing lose slots because of their competition being more unique (Cherche-Camilla, Lon'qu-Ryoma), more popular (Henry-Tharja) or are already in but younger (Tiki). The important characters we are missing are just Basilio, Flavia and Say'ri, and all of them are very low on the popularity scale on top of not being THAT important.

Shadow Dragon is the only one with an actual big shot missing in Camus (who is not even a playable unit there), everyone else that matters is in. The rest of the missing picks are admittedly iconic, but not important, have questionable and unproven popularity since they are from the oldest games, and compete with far more important or unique people from future games (Merric-Soren, Ogma-Ike, etc). Camus, however, has AMAZING chances to get in as Zeke via a future Shadows of Valentia pack which will likely happen because IS is a business and they WILL want to push their most recent product, as well as Amiibo. That's not considering how a future game could focus on New Mystery to add the remaining people we lack.

With a total of 12 people from Fates, 9 from awakening, and 6 from SD, we actually ended up covering almost 100% of the viable, important and popular picks, with the only missing people being acceptable compromises for more valuable characters from games that would come in the future.

This is actually feasible for every game down the line if KT keeps doing the "3 focus games per musou" deal.

Look at Tellius for example. Assuming it gets the same slots that Awakening did for a sequel, that's enough for:

*Ike and Micaiah, the protagonists

*Sothe and Soren, their lancers

*Black Knight, the iconic villain

*Elincia, the actual lord in terms of plot weight

*A Bird Tribe Laguz (Tibarn) and a Beast Tribe Laguz (A POR Cat or our Lion King)

*A possible extra pick to fill a niche that FESwitch and the other/previous focus games might fail to cover (Boyd, Pelleas, Geoffrey if i'm wrong about Camus).

 

 

Im only using dlc because you won't compromise on fates reps. And when the game itself uses dlc to patch things up ( terrible shadow dragon representation (only 3)) why can't i do it.

Im not gunning for a full roster with one game. I already said that.

Why is one of celica or alm important and one could debate lucina coming in for someone else if can't compromise again.

Clone potential =/= clones i said potential.

Mist can be as unique as Elise. It's just your favoritism in the way.

I want a fair roster with a reasonable timeframe for all games to be represented. Like i said many times in the end by the time your games have full representation our rosters are the same my fates will be as 100% as yours. I just want the possibility for all games in a reasonable time. You don't.

Your just using popularity and only this. Take one for the team. Just because some are more popular doesn't make them or there fans better. Give them more but not that much.

Now your using dlc to make your point but i can't.

Are you putting a villain in the tellius roster this game didn't put villains in the roster. I hope you mean just as a villain because thats how this game handled it.

I would also add laguz, but you denied that demanding fates gets all the uniqueness.

Look i made a template for a roster with little difference 8 characters. I could remove a character and the workload would about equal that of the game. I put the missing few fates characters in from game 4 onward provided we would get this far which isn't certain. But this way guarentees 5+ characters for every game by game 3. Yours at the earliest by game 5. With game 4 and 5 i add the ones missing were the same on the roster. But i gave sacred stones lovers 3 games, Thracia lovers 3 games while you give them one while taking 5 for fates and awakening it isn't fair.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

7 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

No, Importance applies to the female siblings as well between being recurrent boss fights and having important moments in the story, all of the royals have importance.

Uniqueness comes from movesets. Which characters have the most potential for said uniqueness? Fates's. The only people this isn't true for is Elise and Hinoka, who are convenient clones.

Again, IS would never let you do that with Lucina. The mere fact that you are using DLC to justify your holes should speak to your roster's integrity. You need lots of DLC to get all of the games represented, and represented well. There is not as much of a burden with focus games.

Oswin is not the only unique character you added. Hector, Ike and Jeorge (unless he can use Wind magic or you plan to dumb down Takumi), Soren(unless you are suggesting a Wind specialist as a Robin clone) and Mist (unless you mean she was supposed to be Staff!Xander) would all need new movesets. There isn't a clone equivalent for all of them. It's easy to make a better roster when you give yourself so much more resources. Be realistic.

I actually despise Elise's character. She's annoying. Even if she was my precious waifu it doesn't change that she already represented Valkyrie since her base class is Troubadour. This is not a point you have over the main roster, and in fact, it's something that wouldn't go through because Mist starts on-foot and gets a pony. Her identity is of a cleric. Unlike Eliwood, Mist is not important enough to have this factor overlooked when Tellius comes up.

You had PoR as a focus game but no Elincia, and not a single Laguz. Fates is missing royals. You would place random-ass Jeorge over so many other more important or iconic characters like Minerva, Camus, Linde, Ogma, Navarre and Merric. As much as I loathe to say it, Lucina is also missing and is important enough to be in the base game. DLC!Azura got enough of a backlash, Lucina would be suicide. And IS wouldn't let you.

DLCina. This amuses me.

 

Again the fates characters missing are coming just at a latter time and the only ones i left out are elise and sakura not everyone.

The Lucina comes from the unwillingness to offer up fates slots from folts part i had to make adjustsments because your both nether willing to or able to.

Hector could share some stuff with Lissa with an adjusted moveset for it's possible. Ike uses sword and as such can take stuff from the others around and so on surely not every part but parts and it really isn't that much more resources that im using. And if im removing lets say Mist i reduce the sources to the level of the game even further now i have one character less but some uniqueness. Something you have fix next game when have these resources more to fall back on.

I changed Mist Identity for uniqueness and getting another horse in, but if it's fates it's unwanted so remove her or make her a marth clone that should reduce work enough.

I used Jeorge as place holder because he's a bow user and i said in the roster post you mentioned that the Jeorge slot is a wildcard and can be changed if need be. Read everything.

What should I go for tell me uniqueness or clones because if i use one you want the other and vice verca. I tried gunning for more balance i got that. More classes i got that. Remove them add clones and we get less workload. Find a balance that works. It was just a suggestion with room for improvement.

And by the way this is a roster i expected IS to suggest to Koei to a certain extend. Because if anything IS should want more games to be represented.

And since i came this to a roster even you would despite making little to no compromise. Your only nitpicking single characters and uniqueness clones which could be adjusted, it's safe to say 4 focus games should satisfy you and your kind to at least 90% and thats certainly more important to satisfy 80% of yor demands, but raising other peoples satisfaction level by decent amounts.

7 hours ago, dmurr said:

I know, right?

Why are we still arguing about the roster? We got what we got, let's move on. Since they're happy with the sales then maybe now we can start thinking about who would be great in the sequel. Hyrule Warriors Legends came out about a year and a half after Hyrule Warriors, but it also needed the work to port it. They'd probably add more new content into a sequel though, so I'd think it's reasonable to expect a similar timeframe. Maybe end of year next year or early 2019. I doubt we'd get a full focus on the new game since it's supposed to come out next year, more likely we'd get one character a la Celica. 

Of course you can't change the game now. Im arguing about the roster something that could have unified the fandom to a certain extend didn't. Something like Ike is in and Titania sweet, Chrom and Frederick too good for you and Takumi and Camilla good for there fans as well. They centralised happiness instead of spreading it.

And this is a forum to discuss things so i want to voice my opinion on the matter.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

45 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

I think Lissa quite comfortably represents both cleric and fighter, Merc isn't there but really, Chrom's moveset is an equivalent. (This is a bit of self awareness, because the best reps for those 2 classes are our protags from Tellius). Considering the number of slots, it's a compromise.

Or that's what i'd like to say, but we could've gotten another weapon for the OC Twins, and as cool as a dual blade moveset for Navarre is, we really didn't need Myrmidon represented in two movesets (that and Ryoma's). Though i've heard that Navarre was a merc originally, so... it's coming???? lol

And the lack of lances doesn't suddenly mean the Cavalier class isn't there between Xander and Frederick, pretty sure Frederick also throws a lance in one of his moves. Honestly, it's like saying Camilla suddenly doesn't count as a wyvern because of no lances.

Just importance or just popularity? point. Problem is, all the lords of all the games hit both aspects (This includes all of fates's royalty), and few other characters manage to accomplish that. On top of being the most recognizable characters of their games, I guarantee you: a full-series roster would be 90%+ Lords. That's how they'd build it, and that's what any reasonable people would be expecting.

You are mixing up arguments. I didn't say fates excludes the other games because of uniqueness: I even gave you a full-series roster (Except for jugdral) that had all 10 royals and was just barely bigger than the intended base game, for example. Uniqueness is just a huge edge that (when coupled with Popularity, Recognizability, Recency and Importance...which are all in Fates's side) would guarantee the presence of those people in the roster compared to any other character of the same class tree that they compete against. 6 is probably enough if you just want to satisfy the fans, but other concerns like gameplay which is just as important as the fanservice... you still end up with at least 9 royals. Hino

Unless, of course, you don't care about dumbing down the gameplay with lesser choices, which is an aspect that has equal if not more weight than fanservice given that it's what makes people keep playing and the fun factor building momentum.

Having so many games ensures all of them will be half-assed for DLC, have too much content ignored for DLC/sequels like you tried to do, or improperly represented because of missing key characters. Tellius in particular would suffer a lot, as would Fates, given the wide range of unique+important people both games have. Splitting the series into chunks is much more manageable for the devs AND will ultimately give us more for each individual game.

They had Celica without Alm and Lyn without ELiwood/Hector. As a non-focus extra, Ephraim can definitively make it alone. He shouldn't, but there's precedent.

 And please stop acting like they can't tackle all that we have plus 2 new FEs within 3 games, if not 2 depending on how far they take DLC. I already demonstrated it to you.

Importance applies really only to the male siblings. At the point that (your/the devs) way reached a full series roster my roster yours would probably be identical. It's just a matter of how long certain games have to wait.

Uniqueness comes from movesets some may be easier to think of but in warrior games it's possible.

Look at my roster with 5 games as i made compromises. What am i dumbing down im adding if anything. I changed only 8 characters and gained classes in the process. Mine are not lesser choices because there different than yours. But there more fair.

To make it clear at the time when all games are represented in your variant your rosters would be the same because i have just as much character as you per game. But while i would be all series by entry 3 you would leave games on one characters until at least game 4 having full series representation at 5 at the earliest. But by then our rosters are the same.

32 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

Had to double post because this showed up as i posted.

First of all, you are working with MCorrin and FRobin as if they had the weight of a character with their own slot. Don't be stupid.

Second, IS/Nintendo would never let you not use Lucina, one of Alm or Celica, and probably Anna. Be realistic.

Thirdly, you excluded just clones, but added unique people in their place. Be realistic. There is a reason we got clones in the first place. For example, in Smash Bros. Melee, director Masahiro Sakurai said he had the option of adding 1 unique character, or 6 clones. As a musou is not as complex as a fighting game, I imagine 4 is a reasonable number of clones to equal a unique character.

Fourth: The Valkyrie class line was already effectively represented through Elise (who does it far better than Mist who strays a lot from what valkyries are and is literally Staff!Xander). Strategist is literally the same thing as the normal valkyrie. Not that you'd know given that you thought different avatar genders somehow could equal a full new character. Don't be ignorant.

I'll reword what I said before: you severely misunderstand how game development works, how the business behind the games work, and severely underestimate key aspects of game design.

Yes i expect them to put more effort they missing armor knights which should have been in. So a more work is justified to a certain extend.

Lucina is the first dlc problem solved.

I didn't for the most part your reaching. Oswin is new the rest has clone potential.

You like elise more ok, but man favoritism much.

You just won't stop attacking me. I made a roster comparable in effort to what we got.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

1 hour ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

While generally speaking I agree with you that the restriction to 3 games was beneficial, we are missing more than just Knight/General.  At the very least, we're missing Mercenaries, Clerics, and Fighters as well.  I'd also argue we're missing Cavaliers, despite having both of their promotions.  You can make the argument that these classes have representation, but I think that argument is a bit sketchy. 

Why is it beneficial to restrict to this game to 3 games. Lets say 5 Games with 7/4/4/4/4/2 pre dlc.

Corrin,Ryouma, Xander, Takumi, Leo, Hinoka, Camilla

Chrom, Lissa, Frederick, Robin

Marth, Shiida, Tiki, (Jeorge)

Eliwood, Hector, Lyn, (Oswin)

Ike, Soren, Titania,(Mist)

OCs

Those with brackets are wildcards easily changeable, if need be.
Which gives us

robin and corrin ( unique )  because could be whats in the game or could be altered. 2 OC could stay the way they are or be altered so those 4 plus
8 swords, 5 axes, 3 lances, 2 bows, 2 magic, 1 dragonstone so weapon triangle works arguably even better

For the record i only changed 8 characters so not that much was changed

Sakura, Elise, Lucina, Cordelia, Celica, Anna, Robin(f), Corrin(m) out
Jeorge, Eliwood, Hector, Oswin, Ike, Soren, Titania, Mist in

Armor Knight and Valkyrie GET!

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

47 minutes ago, Folt said:

Leo is too important as-is with his Brynhildr and being Takumi's counterpart. In addition, he is extremely popular, so there's importance to the plot + popularity and unlike, say, Azura, he is particularly important to the Hoshido vs. Nohr part of the game whereas Azura's importance is mainly in the tuff that pertains to Valla.

If thats the case remove azura add Leo. Now there would be an imbalance that cannot stand this fates unfair representation of kingdoms impossible, so add Hinoka and remove one of ocs or put one of the other games one down. And as compensatation bring only one dlc character for fates azura problem. One suggestion from one actually looking for one.

 

47 minutes ago, Folt said:

1. Stretching things out too thin for stuff to actually work. 2. Money and time issues. 3. Manpower needs to be spent not just at the characters but at the items, the weapons, the story mode, the other modes, miscellaneous things like supports, special battle quotes, battle grunts, voice actors to voice all that stuff, etc. etc. And the fewer games you use in the base, the less time you spend at each of these things and the more you leave as stuff to potentially recycle for the next game (like battle quotes and grunts and movesets, etc. etc.) so you can actually expand upon what you have.

1. Again with my suggestion every game would be better of than shadow dragon is now. Why shouldn't it work?

2. and 3. Im literally suggestion a game with just as much characters with about ten characters being different. Some will take more some will take less. It wouldn't increase the workload by much.

47 minutes ago, Folt said:

The thing here is that no one is using combinations of weapons. They all use one type of weapon for their regular movesets and maybe pull out their secondary weapon for their Warrior Special/Dual Special/Awakening Special. But the addition of FE stats and whether or not they are able to use staves help differentiate them in meaningful ways.

If there don't using combinations why did you even bring this up a point. If it's just specials thats not close to enough to use this as an uniqueness argument, because with specials you can do crazy stuff regardless of weapons or characters.

 

47 minutes ago, Folt said:

Oh, I love Ephraim too, but here's the thing: We have this game with Shadow Dragon, Awakening, and Fates as focuses + Lyn and Celica. Who says that subsequent games won't be able to sneak in Ephraim as a non-focus character, even if he isn't part of the focus games, as a character in the sequel or in the sequel after that. Sacred Stones is one of the less popular FEs but representation before FEW 5+ is certainly possible with the way they're treating non-focus games.

Ephraim was just an example. But for you it seems impossible to sacrifice only one of eight siblings, yet ephraim alone go for it. If you put your argument on importance those single characters aren't good for your argument. If you can't add takumi without leo you sure can't add ephraim without eirika. But as long as the non focus game isn't your favorite game or popular it's ok.

 

47 minutes ago, Folt said:

Because quite frankly, I have no intention of playing Lord Emblem Warriors the game. With the restricted representation, the only normal FE class we're missing is the Knight/General class and, counting Lissa as our infantry axe, every regular class has some form of representative character who brings the quirks and abilities of the class into the game and ensures a large variety of decent picks, in terms of both gameplay and strategy.

But why would a game with ten different characters( same amount in the end ) be less diverse. Just because they are fates characters doesn't mean there moveset is better or weapons, classes and movesets are more diverse thats a task for the developers.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

2 hours ago, Folt said:

Leo is about as important to Fates as Takumi is so he should be a part of the cast either way. I'd also let Hinoka in alongside Caeda and one more Peg. Knight so we can do Triangle Attack shenanigans. I also have issues with you excluding Sakura (who is one of the more unique healers in the FE series) and Elise (who is probably the best and one of the most likeliest choices we have for a standard Troubadour unit).

Just because someone is important doesn't mean he should be in the game same with popularity. These are things to consider but not something that should automatically give them a spot. While you have issuses with missing characters i have issuses with missing games, but the thing is fates fans already would have gotten enough with 6+2 dlc. And leo would be dlc as mentioned.

 

2 hours ago, Folt said:

And we don't need all games to be represented. There's simply too many of them to make that feasible in two or three games. Simply go with SD/Awakening/Fates for this game, expand upon that with Binding Blade/Path of Radiance/FE Switch for the next game, then expand upon that yet again with Blazing Blade/something like Mystery of the Emblem or Gaiden/new FE game and keep going from there, perhaps include some off-the-focus characters like this game did with Lyn and Celica.

Why would you not want to represent all games of a franchise. 12 is not that many that it is impossible. FEW 1: 5 games, FEW 2: 4 games + FE switch, FEW 3: 3 games + possible FE switch 2 and then FEW 4 expand + possible new FE. This is feasible you just don't want to admit it and want specific characters.

 

1 hour ago, guedesbrawl said:

It's not a bold and arrogant statement, and has nothing to do with exploration. You are thinking about characterization and not what truly matters: gameplay.

You just said unique so i wasn't sure. So you meant gameplay. So because someone has a unique weapon or unique combination of weapons it justifies not adding more games which could bring uniqueness in movesets regardless course its a warriors game.

 

1 hour ago, guedesbrawl said:

I like how you think fans of this 75% of FE cannot be fans of the other 25%.

Never said they couldn't but if my favorite game would be sacred stones and i heard of a crossover i would be pumped. Yeah taking castles with Ephraim in this game is reasonable. Playing as characters from this game is what i would hope for. I probably would also like other games but that doesn't justify having no chance of decend representation until FEW 5+.

 

1 hour ago, guedesbrawl said:

I honestly don't care for Leo unless we are talking shipping. But cutting the most popular male character in japan is just dumb. Not focusing on Fates while it and Awakening are the hottest parts of the franchise is also dumb. Making the fanbase from said hottest part of the series wait just to please the fanbase from the comercial failures, games over a decade old and japan-only games (while also netting us less games, and overall less content) is also amazingly dumb, especially when you think of this as a business, which is how the devs are looking at it.

I always said fates and awakening would be focused games. I even said they would get more representation than the others just not this much. Why are unable to offer a few spots for whole game representation. And again leo dlc.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

53 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

It doesn't matter why it sold well: it just matters that it DID sell. (If anything, i wouldn't say that fates was lucky, but that the others were unlucky. RD in particular... that was just painful).

Again: Fates's main cast not only comes from the most recent game they had as a frame of reference, these characters are all popular, unique among people of their class lines, convenient clones that fill niches we'd normally be lacking, and they are "face" characters for the game (which often goes hand-in-hand with importance, but not always).

Even in a full series game, i guarantee you they would have at least 9 of the 10 royals. It's simply the most logical thing to do, especially when Fates dwarfs pretty much everything in the series besides Awakening at the moment.

The part in bolded is what Heroes is doing. Try taking a look at which games got the most reps, and most importantly, which games they chose to focus for the base game.

You suggest just 6 of the royals. But you excluded Leo who is the MOST POPULAR of the guys in japan--they'd never do it. At the point where we have Takumi and Leo, it's a no-brainier to clone the little sisters from them, much like Hinoka is also an easy clone when Caeda's such a big "face" for Marth's games and the only other big peggy is Elincia. (We can argue about Cordelia, but i think she was not necessary. Awakening or not, we should've gotten another kind of clone over her)

 

Yes i excluded Leo, my favorite royal of fates, because im able to make a compromise. I suggested dlc giving fates 2 more reps. Leo could be a part of that. And adding characters of an overrepresented game as clones when adding other games gives cloning oppurtunites as well is selfish.

Saying there unique is a bold and arrogant statement. Why are they more unique then others? There just more explored then other characters.

And something more general. I can expect people to wait for one of there favs for dlc or a second game, to represent more games and be able to get to all games in 3 warrior titles.They way they decided to go won't give us all games till probably 5 which who knows if they get there.

You expect fans of 75% of the games to wait without much hope for representation just so you get for example leo in or hinoka in. While you or devs or others aren't able to wait for one or two characters to share a bit.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

15 minutes ago, Folt said:

We're not cutting out three Fates siblings so we can include two more games. Especially not when only one choice character from those two games can spark curiosity by themselves.

Not from where we are. We can't change the game now. The beginning was flawed. You seem to like these characters and thats fine but put yourself in the shoes of those who didn't got this lucky in a game where the possibility was there. And again compromise. 6 characters from one of 12 games in a crossover is decent to very good.

One choice with 6 would be Corrin, Ryouma, Takumi, Xander, Camilla and Azura balance of importance uniqueness and popularity.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

10 minutes ago, Folt said:

And who is covering what?

We wouldn't get a more whole game if we went with 5 games over three. We'd get a roster that, while maybe looking more "whole" on paper, is actually more splintered in practice.

Only taking one game would have been pretty bad, but taking more than three games would have spread things too thin for a first installment. We're not supposed to overwhelm the poor people who's buying this game, and we're certainly not gonna suggest that people make themselves familiar with 6+ games before they buy. If you're gonna suggest to me that we should focus on quantity before quality, then I must outright disagree with you.

6/5/4/4/4/2 meant fates 6 awakening 5 and 3 more games with 4 each and 2 oc characters. You say it's too thin when this is better than what shadow dragon got this game while only focusing on 3 games. Quality was never in question and overall quantity would be the same.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

51 minutes ago, Folt said:

I'm talking in terms of regular FE classes, not the special ones that wouldn't have made it in anyways... No wait! Butlers and Ninjas and so on actually made it in as enemy variants so scratch that.

And a compromise was indeed made between all who worked on this game: Focus on these three games for now, then include more games in the next one if this sells well (which it appears to have done, not that I ever doubted that). Fire Emblem is more than just characters and gradually introducing the rest as we get more is fine. It's a Musou with Fire Emblem elements, not a celebration of abso-fucking-lutely everything.

Plus, I'm enjoying the shout-outs to the other FEs which didn't make the cut. It's hilarious stuff.

Enemy classes wouldn't disappear because fates went from 9(12) to something like 5(7) characters. Enemies isn't what i was talking about. And to reiterate what i said in the post you replied to there isn't only 3 or 12 games as options theres for example something like 6/5/4/4/4/2 pre dlc (maybe 8/7/6/6/5/2 after dlc) covering 5 games(5 orbs) giving fates and awakening extra still include 2 oc protagonists and creating a base which built upon could include characters from all continueties by game 2 covering all games by game 3 reasonable.

3 wasn't a compromise it was a given like they could only take 1 game.

If having one or to characters of my fav game less in one or more of the warriors games gives a hole game and fans of this game room it is sacrifice im willing to take especially in a crossover game.

fates sold this much more than older games because of lucky circumstances like actual marketing have a way for no veterans to enjoy it with casual mode which is a good edition.

But marketing and especially nintendo directs letting people know these games exists are what moved sales. And the marriage stuff to certain extend.

Give them more ok, but why almost anything. Why centralise love for a series instead of spreading it. Show the new fans that there is more stuff different stuff something they might be interested in, while still giving them stuff they enjoyed already.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

1 hour ago, Folt said:

Why should Fates fans not be pandered to? Fates is a Fire Emblem through and through, and as the focus game with one of the highest potential for varied characters in terms of class representation, I'd rather take as many as I can of those.

The extend of the pandering is the the problem. Fates can get the most representatives for all i care, but this is fire emblem warriors not fates warriors and other fans shouldn't be forgotten. I don't want to be forgotten as a fire emblem fan (less focused on is ok but forgotten)  because i like the (wrong) fire emblem. And with 25 (34 after dlc 1) more was possible, feasible and more fair.

And with all that fates reprensentation that there is 9+3 which is ridiculous did we get the o so unique classes of fates maids, butlers, ninjas... no, but you make it sound like we did.  So they chose this road and didn't even deliver on that. Most classes we got out of fates are in the other games as well.

And doesn't for example tellius offer uniqueness through laguz.

Your comment shows my main problem with the devs and the fans overdefending this when it comes to what games/characters they focused on. The unwillingness to compromise. I get reprensenting all games is hard but the space between 12 and 3 isn't void. 

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

7 hours ago, Truthblade said:

I may be reading into it wrong (since it is kinda late)    but some comments here make me think people are forgetting that the three game's focus was not popularity alone, (if at all) , but because they had milestones to justify their higher priority. Shadow Dragon,  as well as having the mascot of the series, is the oldest game.  Awakening was the grand reboot button,  and was intended to be a celebration of the franchise in of itself.  Fates, when this game was developed, was the next big thing.  (though it has lost that title).

Yes that is enough reason to put reprensentation of those games in, but why only 3 games given how many characters we got 25 in the base game 34 with dlc. With 6 games for example we could get around 4 characters from every focus game in the base game and 5-6 after one dlc pack which is decent representation for a crossover game and more fair. But Koei developers seem to be fates fans as shown on the first page of this interview.

http://nintendoeverything.com/fire-emblem-warriors-devs-on-characters-and-handling-of-reveals-designs-story-systems-modes/

They justified all fates siblings because leaving one out would make the others worry to much to make the story progress. Wouldn't this apply to other charaters as well? Couldn't they even make that an incentive for the siblings that got in to fight harder? But the devs loved fates so they wanted as many of them as possible making little compromise.

They were even discussing removing some like hinoka but a developer said i married her don't do this. While this could be meant in a joking matter it shows they have played fates, they loved fates ,they gonna pander to fates fans because they are as well. there wishfullment is what gave us this little reprensentation and imbalance.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

50 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Warriors games don't remove characters.

Sorry should have clarified that more. I was talking about a hypothetical roster without xander and ryoma. So not adding them is what i meant.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

15 minutes ago, Motendra said:

Whose to say that it will always be a 3 game focus? This first entry involved making move sets from scratch . Now that there's a basic framework, they now have the liberty to up the scales, tho by how much is uncertain.

If you recall my very first sentence, it was a general statement aimed at no one in particular, even if inspired by a few earlier posts. Even so, there are problems with your list too. For instance, while it certain does add to axes, it shafts bows, healers, mounted mages and the most unique person in the game (tiki). Also, its impossible to include Fates without both Ryoma and Xander, the two faces of their respective sides, who, while adding two more swords, also provide different classes; something that the game needs. Idk what you mean by having Robin, Corrin and Celica unique, when honestly, there's nothing really wrong with them as they are. While Celica who could be semi-cloned at most with magical strong attacks, that she primarily uses a sword isn't an issue in this context. Really, most of it boils down to all of them being stretched too thin. Its bad enough that Shadow Dragon got the shorter stick in what we already have. What you have here is an entire cast of short sticks, which isn't an improvement. Then there's the convenient removal of Rowan & Lianna, the actual lords that create the premise for the game.

Good sales =/= they did everything right. Any business with an actual vision must always be looking for how they can improve, 'else a lot of what we see today would not exist out of lack of ambition. For example, given that Awakening had the best sales to date, with that logic, Fates would not have made any of the improvements that it made to game play. 

With the second game they have to focus on fe switch and probably give close to fates reprensentation in this game at base without dlc. So how many new characters can we expect probably less than than 25 more would be wishful thinking. Given how much they loved fates which is shown in there interview after the lyn reveal and if fe switch will be close to fates they will probably again add about 8-10 characters from that game which doesn't leave enough room for more then two other focus games. Of course this only applies because they handled 1 the way they did.

My list was only a suggestion and an example of weapon balanced list with 25 slots and 9 games i even said one could remove minerva for jeorge or like you suggested tiki. It wasn't final. Lissa could also be healer instead of an axe user if one wanted.

Ryoma and Xander wouldn't add variety in terms of classes we already would have mounted and foot sword users. Removing them would also present a unique situation for corrin, wanting to go back stopping them from continuing the war and fear he/she will be to late giving an incentive to end this conflict.

For the short stick argument it only works now because we got this game with huge casts for awakening/fates if from the beginning we now 2-4 per game that wouldn't feel like short sticks because we wouldn't have huge differences.

And just because i would have liked it when all games were represented i could compromise ,something the developers couldn't as it seems, because they love fates so much. My roster included only 9 games instead of all 12 for example. The thing is a compromise between 12 and 1 or 3 shouldn't be 3. 3 is just that magical hyrule warriors number.

With dlc we have 34 characters so thats what were working with if they went with a 6 games approach we could have 5-6 characters per pretty decent and leaves room for weapon and class variety. 4 characters per game in the 25 strong base game plus one protagonist.

The good sales argument was maybe a bit harsh, but good sales on selfish (more than need be i know they have to earn money but again compromise) decisions and almost downright offensive PR is a signal i don't want to send out.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

5 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

If it wasn't a reply to me then i didn't read it.

If the point is full-series and you aren't going for all the lords except maybe the japan-only that weren't in Smash, your roster would never happen, ever.

You were talking like 25 and even 30. Unrealistic, and almost delusional. That's why I brought up Zelda and I'll bring up Zelda as many times as necessary until you get it that this game is lower priority and would never get an equal amount of love, let alone more which is what you're asking for. Comparing Zelda and FE is like comparing Ragnel to an Iron Sword, at best a Steel.

Also, they are business. They want to do more games, not blow everything with just one. And personally, I'd rather have more games, giving each or most parts of FE as much spotlight as they can because they aren't handling too much at once. SD got a bit shafted here but it has a sequel to market itself around later.

 

How is 25 characters unrealistic when thats literally what we got. I made the list ,which isn't final or the best or such, to show that you can represent more games i chose 9 leaving out the sequels and second gen charcters for potential dlc and or sequel focus along fe switch.

And if you read my post with 30 you should have seen i said 30 isn't unrealistic considering npcs(owain and friends) and villains(gharnef and friends) are there in an unpolished state(potential for more characters easier created than new ones) and most important i said if they chose 30 that i would push the release date back by about a month to finish those.

And having better representation doesn't deny sequels with for example fe switch around the corner and you could always add more on the base you build upon.

I get you got what you wanted from the game to a certain extend, but others didn't. Is it so hard to show a little sympathy.

Respect to all games. Respect to all fans. Thats what im missing here. On the character front.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

8 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

No, you really just don't get it: all you're saying doesn't suddenly make the process any more cheaper or time consuming. It's not about creativity. It's about modeling, texturing, programing, animating, writing, vocing, and a bunch of other aspects of game design and game development.

What we got is absolutely normal for any starting warriors, clones aside. And while I can't prove anything, I assume it would take 4 clones to equal the workload/cost of a original character.

The game you want is not feasible. Not even Hyrule Warriors managed to cover much more than 3 games, and that's with the Triforce holders being whole-series reps. It too had focus games: OoT, SS and TP, all with 3 reps each.

The game you want would just miss the mark. Especially since there is literally no way the focus would be on people like Soren and Titania over a lord-type like Micaiah. They'd focus on the lords. The face characters that people would see in the boxart and the first chapters.

 

 

Are you even reading my posts. Why are mentioning Micaiah when i said sequels can be dlc. Why is a game with the same amount of characters and good to decent clone potential (about 7) that much harder to realise. Im not talking 40 characters here. And stop bringing up zelda when all i ever did was comparing the game we got in the character department to what this could have been with similar (higher but similar) effort. 

 

17 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

Even excluding what you said, we put ourselves at 18 new characters required for the base roster. And I am talking in terms of what is likely, not what could have been. The game released. Its done. No changing that.

What were the non story relevant characters we got in this game... Cordelia and thats it.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

1 minute ago, Tolvir said:

You bring in every game in the franchise, you get about 20 characters you NEED to include. FE4 needs Diedre, Seliph, Sigurd, Julia, and Arvis to at least get its bases covered, FE5 needs at least Leif, Reinhardt, and Olwen, and probably a few more I dont know about because I never played. FE6 needs Roy and Lilina. FE7 needs Eliwood, Hector, and Lyn. SoV/Gaiden needs Alm and Celica. PoR needs Ike, Soren, and the Black Knight at the very least. Radiant Dawn needs Micaiah, Ashera, Sothe, and Elincia. Sacred Stones needs Erica and Ephraim. So before we even take a look at anyone that is not a main character or lord of their game, you already hit 24 new characters required.

That is roughly the cast of the base game itself already, and we havent even included anyone past people who were heavily involved in the story. That is why the 3 game format helps, because that number drops from 24 characters required, to roughly 6-10. And the rest have the freedom of being whoever the devs see fit.

Don't count villains as they can be discount implements as we have seen in this game. Why not make the first game hit all the required characters. That would make warriors 2 that much more interesting, because they could add anyone. Also need is harsh. 2.gen could be dlc with the sequels. Suddenly there are 9 games to cover. Why is covering 9 games too much. Heck why is covering 6 games too much.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

3 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

And as far as characters go, I agree. I think they had an unfortunate scenario here of stuff like Fates requiring such a large amount to get every main character in. So games like FE7 or Radiant Dawn, where your required main characters drop from 10+ to maybe 3-5. I definitely would like to see some non lord options though, which is why I think the idea of focusing 3 at a time is great, because Tellius without characters like Shinon and Gatrie, or Haar and Jill just wouldnt be right.

Why would having 3 games at a time make these characters more likely as like ~2-3(3-5 with dlc) representatives of all FEs per game? By the time every game is covered there isn't any difference.  It is just harder for sacred stones or thracia fans which would have to wait till game 4 probably if that even happens and more important when like in 7-10 years.

And I would say a game featuring Takumi, Camilla, Ike, Roy and Lyn would be as safe because of smash ike and roy popularity.

And that they choose a safe option is basically what im criticising them for. And by them i mean IS. Because it isn't the first time. Time and time again they prioritise one fan group and leave the other half to wait.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

5 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

Zelda has everything to do with it. You want a game bigger than Hyrule Warriors for a franchise that is smaller and harder to cover. It just ain't happening.

Your roster has 25 people. Which ones of them are clones? I can only see about 5 pairs. Surely you don't think that if this game struggled with 15 unique moveset that they would "easily" make 25?

It just feels like you severely underestimate how costly and demanding game development is. Nintendo and IS are big, but this is a Koei Tecmo game. Warriors games with big rosters/number of movesets are all because of sequels.

I really dont underestimate game development, but you overestimate certain aspects of it. When characters are given, weapons are given, source material is given making movesets unique isn't that much of a task considering not only that warrior games are over the top so more is possible and this is THE warriors game developer.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

18 minutes ago, Motendra said:

FE Cipher started with just Archanea and Ylisse and is soon to have every world in FE. FE Heroes, being a mobile game, had liberties to start with more, but still had to wait to include all that it has, which started with Sacred Stones (marginally, but still, le *gasp*) and now has gone so far as to properly include Geneaology.  TMS unfortunately couldn't supplant itself to warrant such growth (granted, its premise wasn't exactly the most desirable), but that all the more adds to the point. Why is it so hard to allow FE Warriors to do the same? If you're just not into the kind of game, sure, but having different flavors available (the representation) doesn't change the fact that you don't like the drink (the game

warrior titles don't get updated every month. When will the next warriors come out in 2 years probably 3 or more. Will it represent all games no most likely not and were getting a new fire emblem game so older games have even less chance of being represented. And then wait for warriors 3 by that the next fire emblem game fe switch 2 will probably be out. You see were im going with this. they could have made an more equal base. So everyone gets something. Not all will be completly satisfied, but at least won't be forgotten.

As for mechanics why would they change with other characters as it stands something like my roster post in this thread is more equal reprensentation of games while still having good weapon variety.

And one more i think nobody in this thread said anything about the mechanics being bad or don't liking warrior games. It's all about taking 25% of the games in the character department and call it a crossover when much more would have been possible with little change on effort and probably almost none to mechanics.

And to make matters worse the good sales will strenghten them in there belief they did everything right.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

24 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

Dude. Zelda is much bigger than FE, and this is what Hyrule Warriors had:

*14 finished characters with 3 almost-finished NPCs (I'm considering the Great Fairy moveset as its own thing, because... it is, effectively)

*4 of these characters had extra weapons, totaling into 6 (I'm not sure if the Horse and Spinner movesets were in the base game).

So 23 movesets, with 9 of them not having 100% new resources either by incompleteness or by re-using a model.

...

Now, let's go back to FE. I'll try to make a roster close to what we got in number of movesets+clones. 30 characters or whatever is just insane for a starting musou of a semi-niche/barely-mainstream series.

Before all, there are 14 sword lords: Marth, Alm, Celica, Sigurd, Seliph, Leif, Roy, Eliwood, Lyn, Eirika, Ike, Chrom, Lucina, Corrin.

Now, consider that between the comparatively huge amount of voiced dialogue the game has and the fact that every single character comes with 2 models because of promotion, characters are more expensive to make. And we already know FE is smaller than Zelda.

The math is obvious. 

 

What has Zelda to do with anything? 30 is not much more than 25 and i even gave an option with 25 characters in the post you replied to which is the same as we got. And i made a post for a possible roster in this thread with 25 entries from 9 of the 12 games and it really isn't as bad as you make it out to be. It is rather balanced. there are of course other options and i don't say it's the best but at least all continents are represented and weapons are about as balanced as in the game. I even got lance infantry in the base game with this.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

I just brought up the chaps who primarily use swords. Celica starts with both, and while Corrin starts with wielding only a sword as well, I just thought the dragon aspect is more ingrained in their skillset than a promotion weapon. Of course, they don't talk about it in Fates, but shhhh

Sorry, buddy, my bad! I missed that "only" part.  

I would personally prefer to fight with the lords' iconic weapons though, I must say. Then again, that wouldn't be very good for the weapon variation, although it's not like it's in perfect shape in the product we got either. It'd be preferable if you could bring in all protagonists (let's say Celica shares a moveset with Marth, Sigurd with Eliwood, Chrom with Lucina, and maybe Alm with Ike) and then fill out the missing niches with other important characters. That way you could keep the number of movesets down while representing the series better.

Also, I'm sure a lot of time and effort could've gone into improving the overall gameplay if you cut the main story, or simplified and shortened it somehow. Removing the lemon twins would, in theory, free up another moveset.

No problem.

Yes i can understand the iconic part.

I would compromise like i said with 9+3dlc instead of 12 with 25 slots one could do

 

Marth, Shiida, Minerva

Alm, Celica

Sigurd,Lewyn

Roy,Lilina

Lyn,Hector,Eliwood

Eirika,Ephraim

Ike,Soren,Titania

Robin,Chrom,Lissa,Frederick

Corrin,Camilla,Takumi,Azura

 

Balance of importance, popularity and weapons(kinda)

9 swords, 3 lances, 6 axes, 1 bow, 3 magic, celica,robin,corrin unique

maybe remove minerva for jeorge for one more bow

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

Marth
Alm
Sigurd
Seliph
Leif
Eliwood
Lyn
Eirika
Ike
Chrom
Lucina

Corrin and Celica use swords as well but the former incorporates shapeshifting while the latter would probably use more magic in her moveset had she been planned to be included in the game from the start.

Of course, if you had the liberty to rearrange the roster working with only with the 15-16 movesets in the game, you could make certain characters share movesets. Sigurd and Eliwood come to mind, like how we already have Celica being a copy of Marth.

Alm and Lyn can also use bows, Eliwood,Chrom and Lucina can use lances and Ike axes. Not that it is easy to implement but it is there. I'd like to see ike slamming urvan in the ground  lifting the enemies up step on urvan jump and use ragnell for an aether.

Also many lords can be done as clones to semi clones with some variation as you said.

[Koei is apparently very happy with the sales]

7 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

Sorry, but like always I'm forced to point out this mentality is stupid.

You know why they had a focus on 3 games? Money. Time. Both are finite resources and the project you want is not something they could pull off with the same resources they had available here.

Never mind how a full-series as a starting warrior is just... too limiting. You know how people say SD got shafted and that 3 reps wasn't enough? That's the most any given game in the series would get with such a crossover.

There's a lot of things the roster needs to cover. Main characters, Important characters, Recognizable/Iconic characters (think Lyn, Frederick or the little sisters, who have big earlygame presence despite low importance and mid/lategame relevance), Popular characters, in particular popular nobodies (Owain, Tharja, Niles...), villain characters, unique characters... and literally the same concepts but with the word "class" instead.

And a full series roster would blow itself up just with lords alone. There's only FOUR lords in the series that don't mainly use Swords: Robin, Hector, Micaiah and Ephraim... and they are all the secondary lords of their games (if not tertiary in Hector's case). The other FOURTEEN lords all use swords.

We only had about SIXTEEN movesets to work a roster with.  15 we got in the base game, and I have no doubt that if IS/Ninty hadn't forced Anna/Lyn/Celica, Oboro and her unique moveset would have been in the base game, which is why I think we missed out on the better game because of IS/Ninty's agenda. If they had waited for the DLC, at least... we wouldn't have had four half-baked NPCs in the base game, only a single lance moveset, and both Celica and Lyn could've been better written and had unique movesets down the line, be it DLC or in a sequel.

 

 

 

Yes money and time are finite, but we are not talking about indie development here. We are talking about big companies and fire emblem a series on a huge upswing in the last years and especially now with heroes.

Surely expecting 30 characters wasn`t out of the question as some expected 40 and if the npcs and villains were playable we would be above 30. So pushing back the release date 3 weeks to 1 month for them to finish those could be possible with the added benefit of pushing it away from mario odyssey.

So lets work with 30 characters so two for every entry and 6 left. 2 extra for fates and awakening for being the newest, 1 extra for shadow dragon because marths game and 1 for blazing sword for western audience intruduction.

This is workable.

One alternative would be taking the sequels out for dlc with an added story for those 3 games. 30 slots 2 for every game of the 9 giving us 12 slots to do stuff. With this you could even go back to 25 characters.

Also while there's only four no sword lords there's also only six only sword users (marth,sigurd,seliph,leif,roy,eirika) if memory serves.