samthedigital

The problem with this is that it isn't subjective. Assuming that characters are ranked by efficiency resets don't matter as long as the result is the most efficient one. This is a poor way to determine what is more efficient because if things are defined in terms of efficiency then time takes precedence over turns taken and failure. If you wanted to depreciate the value of resets you would focus on the chance of success of a single strategy over a longer period of time. For example if a strategy only works 20% of the time but is faster to use on average than any other strategy normally it's likely not going to be a strategy used in a single segment run. Note that efficiency still takes precedence over reliability, but reliability does become more important in this situation. Toothache's TAS is a good example of Fire Emblem 6 being played. RNG abuse is simply a tool used to play Fire Emblem better, so I personally don't understand why no one considers RNG abuse in tier lists. Perhaps it makes ranking characters less interesting, but it is a more accurate representation of the game rather than trying to 'fix' the game to make it more 'interesting' to debate. How would you rank characters in a tier list? I find that giving characters 1BEXP at a time to maximize their level ups to be a pointless exercise. It doesn't even change stats to a significant degree. Ultimately though it doesn't matter how the characters are ranked, but I find that it is more useful to know which characters are better for beating a game quickly than it is knowing which set of characters beats the game the most reliably There is still a correlation between the two making the latter somewhat important anyway, but I think you get the point.

Totodile can eliminate its problems with grass attacks once it gets Ice Punch, but I don't see why Totodile is getting the same score as Geodude. Geodude is actually better in tool assisted conditions as far as I know, but without all the luck required it's worse than Totodile, though you give them the same score. You'll see that you list weaknesses for Geodude (namely the speed issue it has and the weaknesses that actually matter) don't exists for Totodile. Even if Totodile compares to the other Water Pokemon (and Totodile doesn't, just to be sure) that would only mean that they would all deserve a higher score, or that Geodude deserves a lower one. I'm not saying that Geodude deserves a lower score since it is still a great Pokemon, but Totodile is still better which I feel is still getting ignored.

I meant Rollout since that's what I compared Rage to in terms of damage, but it was because I thought you were talking about total damage. It's not as easy to calculate per hit damage though without looking at the damage done directly with memory watcher or whatever, but I didn't really feel like going through the trouble.

I tested by playing the game. The damage doubles after every hit for Rollout, so after two uses it's 60 total base power to 80 for scratch.

I'm guessing it works like Rollout and doubles the base power every turn. It's the only option that makes sense given that it almost goes even after two turns and wins after three turns. I think that the best way to rank Pokemon is to assume they are being used without any other assumptions being made. Tier lists for some of the Fire Emblem series are done this way too.

I think that the Rage mechanics given by bulbapedia are false, but I don't know why. Two rage (the first without the boost) are almost equivalent to using two Scratch (being slightly weaker) while the third does more damage than three scratch attacks. After getting Water Gun Rage is still useful for 3 battles though, but the main point isn't that Rage is a good move, but that it lets Totodile fight enemies more efficiently than the other two starters early on.

Nidoking and Jolteon are not comparable. Nidoking can use Thunderbolt before Jolteon exists to score OHKOs against Slowpoke, and after Thunderbolt eventually becomes useless it can replace it for Horn Drill and lose no KO power. Jolteon still has problems in that area anyway since it starts out slow and won't gain levels easily. The point is to maximize level ups for Lapras because there isn't a real problem with ignoring experience from Erika's gym for a while. I don't see where you are finding this difficulty jump though. The game isn't exactly challenging at any point in time, and not fighting Erika for a little while isn't going to turn a Pokemon's KO power down very much if at all. Beedrill has an incredibly slow start learning Twineedle at level 20, and it is bad enough statistically so that its stats actually matter. It's not a good Pokemon compared to others, so being the best Bug doesn't make it good. I was addressing Jolteon's STAB, but I can see why you'd be confused. You are missing the point though. It's the fact that the Pokemon can OHKO that matters and not that they have some STAB or whatever. Jolteon can't OHKO as effectively as other Pokemon. It's not a great Pokemon. There's no need to get into the fact that it has Electric STAB because it doesn't matter.

dondon151 is right in that Rage increases the Pokemon's attack by 1 stage, but only if Rage is used. The attack stat is normal for every other move. I tested this in the game just to be sure. Anyway, Rage is notable for two reasons. Totodile and Cyndaquil don't get a STAB move until level 13 and level 12 respectively, and Totodile is the only starter that doesn't need excessive Potion use, training or luck to take the Pokemon on in Falkner's Gym. Scratch takes around 8 hits to take out trainers in Falkner's gym whereas Rage takes 5, but that doesn't take into account that Potions don't have to be used as much because Totodile doesn't have to fight as many rounds of combat. Rage remains useful as an attacking move up until after beating the rival the second time. Whitney is the exception to the rule, but Rage is completely useless after that.

Raticate and Fearow are a poor example since they can be obtained earlier and leveled higher. It doesn't matter what they compare to though immediately because a lot of stuff that comes earlier is better plus things like Snorlax, Exeggutor, Tauros, and a few other Pokemon. I'd also like to point out that only one of the Pokemon is usable. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam in tandem are good, but not amazing, but they only get one, and the Pokemon they hit for Super Effective aren't a problem in the first place. Blizzard is much better, but Lapras can fight in Erica's gym and win without much of a hassle because of the Blizzard STAB. Lapras's required training is also a benefit to the player since Lapras can take out more than one kind of Pokemon. Nidoking needs Thrash until the middle of the game where it gets Horn Drill and Surf, and both are basically free. Those can last until the end of the game, and Nidoking is still a top tier Pokemon without the costly TMs. In any case, it's true that Pokemon need TMs, but a lot of Pokemon like for example Nidoking have a variety of moves to use whereas Vaporeon and Jolteon are one trick ponies. Zapdos can be caught with the Master Ball, and it's the best Pokemon to use it on. Having an electric type isn't useful though because the STAB isn't an amazing benefit. It's like being a good Bug Pokemon to a lesser extent.

Perfect? They are at level 25 and require TMs that other Pokemon could use, and they come when everything else starts to become available to the player. They are average in every respect. Other Pokemon are just better. Besides, they only get one of Thunderbolt or Ice Beam making them less valuable than say Lapras. Jolteon has a niche usefulness in a low level run against the Elite 4, but that's about it. Besides, Jolteon may be better than Pikachu, but it is leagues behind Zapdos, and the STAB isn't important most of the time. STAB really isn't all that important for most of the great Pokemon anyway.

It's not really an issue when ranking ENM though as compared to HHM.

It really depends on the map for this, but most of the time the arena proves to be more beneficial since the experience per turn ratio can go up to 170 experience per turn (on HHM, so ENM should have a higher output and less downtime since 170 doesn't happen every turn because characters need to heal) while other chapters don't have this kind of experience output.

Try to finish chapters quickly instead of aiming for the experience rank. I wouldn't suggest ignoring it or anything, but make sure it is secondary to completing chapters quickly (go to every optional chapter though). Secondly, Linus's version of chapter 23 is ideal, so make sure that the lords are above 50 also. Plan out how many turns to arena abuse. It's possible to spend around 100 turns on HHM, but I am not sure how it works in NM since the turn requirements for a five star are different. Lastly, Kenneth's version of chapter 25 is probably better than the other option, so neglect one of Bartre or Dorcas to meet the requirements effectively. On a side note, I would also suggest not ranking LNM and ENM in the same run. It's sort of pointless to rank Lyn's mode and any other mode together.

I don't really have anything to say about your reviews themselves, but the Pokemon are rated too high. Flareon should be a 3.5 or a 4 for the same reasons you gave. If the Pokemon is below average it shouldn't get above 5, and Flareon has no good offensive options for a long time. Vaporeon and Jolteon should get 6 to 7.5 because they are more comparable to Bellsprout (they are worse than Bellsprout though) than they are to Diglet.

That doesn't really detract from my point though. Ditto also has to keep its own HP, and it still needs that many turns to set up. At least Ledyba can attack without having to set up. In any case, it does show that Chikorita would never have a low score like 1 or 2. What I am saying is that there isn't a direct correlation with ease and efficiency. A Pokemon could have a reliable, quick strategy, but it also doesn't have to be easy to do. I am pretty sure our views on efficiency are the same. Feraligatr doesn't have the best base power with return at that point, and Headbutt's chance to flinch makes it more advantageous than the other two moves. A flinch saves around 3 seconds or so per flinch without anything else factored in. Anyway, X-Items aren't completely overpowered. A Pokemon has to be trained to use them effectively, there isn't an infinite amount of cash in the game, and the more X-Items the Pokemon has to use the less effective the Pokemon is. Totodile is different from Starmie in that Totodile is useful while it is being trained. Not many other Pokemon can make that claim. Confuse Ray is worthless because other attacks are going to ko more quickly. The Rain Dance and Thunder combo takes time to set up. It's a lot like using an X-Item, so it's not really much of an advantage. Feraligatr can fight the Elite 4 just about as effectively as Starmie can. Feraligatr needs some X-Special for some things, but against Lance for example it is faster than everything else and OHKOs everything except for Gyarados who gets 2HKOd, It's better compared to other Pokemon, but that doesn't make it good. If we are going by your rules Pokemon are going to barely be more than level 40 before getting to the Elite 4. Quagsire's Earthquake is also unsurprisingly not amazingly desirable. It's great, sure, but it doesn't hit everything for Super Effective, and Feraligatr doesn't even need Earthquake to take on the Elite 4 effectively. Resisting Rock and Poison type attacks isn't important at all. Besides, I am not saying that Quagsire is bad, but that it has no good advantages over Feraligatr. My claim was that Feraligatr is the best Pokemon under the given circumstances pound for pound, and it has never been anything else.

Chikorita is still a 5 or a 6. Compare Ditto to Chikorita. Ditto is one of the worst Pokemon, so it should get a 1. Chikorita can still perform, just not as quickly as a Pokemon that would be rated an 8 or a 9. The standard assumption is that a Pokemon is used and no negatives can be attributed to them for being used versus a better Pokemon, so Cyntaquil's rating wouldn't drop. If we were rating purely on absolute efficiency Cyntaquil would get a 0 since it would never be chosen. No, I am saying that ease has nothing to do with a tier list. I wouldn't use 'easy' to describe a strategy. I would describe it as efficient or inefficient, but ease never comes into the picture. Headbutt has 80 base power and the chance of flinching. I don't think your dislike of X-Items should affect your ratings though. They are are a part of the game just like anything else. Banning them would be a lot like banning stat boosting items in Fire Emblem. It doesn't really make any sense too. What do they have that Totodlile doesn't? If anything, it's not very much. Starmie has to be trained to have higher speed than Feraligatr, and you will probably find that it doesn't make much of a difference either way. When do the advantages that Wooper gets help him? Quagsire gets Earthquake at level 35, but that takes a while to get to get to. Not being affected by electric attacks doesn't help because Electric Pokemon aren't abundant, and the ones that are there aren't a threat to Feraligatr even with its typing. Feraligatr also doesn't have a problem offensively. On paper you might say that STAB Earthquake and 0x versus electric attacks are an advantage, but in practice they don't really change very much.

Using one Pokemon isn't tedious. Any PP problems are mitigated by the Pokecenter and smart use of move choices. Ignoring trainers altogether works too. The developers might have tried to make training more Pokemon more effective than not, but it didn't really work out that way. By using more Pokemon the player effectively has to split the most important resource in half even if only two Pokemon are trained. It's just not efficient, and I don't see how it is interesting to create a tier list this way either. I think you provided a good counterexample to your first sentence by yourself. It doesn't matter how much Chikorita is actually trained. It's going to be the same in both kinds of tier lists. A lot of Pokemon do stay the same; it's just that it's more effective to rate Pokemon. If there is a full team to back up a certain Pokemon's shortcomings they won't matter, so it is effectively the same as other Pokemon. It creates a lot of imbalances where it would be otherwise more simple to see the differences between two unique Pokemon. In Chikorita's example, it has PP problems because it doesn't have a lot of effective moves, and it can't take a lot of Pokemon too because of that. Even when it's the only Pokemon in use it runs into that problem. It's not like Meganium is going to be at level 100 OHKOing everything by the end of the game. Ease and efficiency are different things. I know many examples in RBY where a low leveled Pokemon could take on a high leveled trainer Pokemon, but it's still not that efficient to do so because the Pokemon are often slower and take many more hits to beat the trainers. It's likely similar in this game. Ditch Rage after a while in favor of Headbutt. Every single one of those Pokemon has shortcomings compared to Totodile. I mentioned that when used Totodile gets free training. This is because to rate a Pokemon they have to be used. Totodile is therefore better than any of the other Water types based on that logic. Most of those Pokemon have glaring problems though. Slowpoke is going to be slower than the opposing Pokemon most of the time and evolves late, Magicarp takes time to train to be effective, and Tentacool has a horrible movepool. That leaves Poliwag and Wooper. Both can be as good as Totodile after a certain point, but Totodile will have the level advantage and has a full 3 gyms of overwhelming advantages because of Rage. It should also be noted that Feraligatr hits harder with every move except Earthquake because of the better base stats. Tentacool and Slowpoke have other disadvantages, but I don't think that I need to mention them. I would create another topic, but Pokemon tiers really don't really create a lot of interest, and at best only one more person would really want to talk about RBY. I also don't want to mix things from both games in this topic though.

I think that this only happens if too much time goes by (that or Titania or Oscar can ferry Ike to the end before it becomes a problem, but it's the same result either way). Titania should be able to deal with the enemy density of the right side anyway. The Poleax Cavalier can be killed early on by Ike or Titania without much difficulty.

If anyone's interested I created a Pokemon RBY tier list. I might have made some mistakes, but I feel that as a rough draft it is quite accurate.

Totodile doesn't face competition from them because Totodile gets free training when it's used. To match Totodile other Pokemon would have to be trained which is largely inefficient. Base stats aren't as important as availability, moves, and level advantages. Totodile also has an amazing start because of Rage. It only needs the forced experience to beat everything without risk of dying. I feel that Totodile should get a better rating than 8 because no other Pokemon in this game are actually better than Totodile. Totodile can't OHKO everything from base without any training at all while also being the first Pokemon you get (which would be optimal, Totodile still fits the last criteria), but it still is the best there is. I also disagree with how the ratings are based on. I don't care about glitches being banned in this game as a lot of them are based on data corruption, and there isn't so much to exploit as in RBY. I still don't get that more than one Pokemon has to be used though. It is largely inefficient to use more than one Pokemon, and Crystal is a very different game than the first generation of games. There are a lot of great Pokemon that don't really need much training in the first generation, but there are a lot less of them in Crystal. Training more Pokemon also mitigates the usefulness of a single Pokemon. A Pokemon can't kill everything, so it doesn't need to be effective against everything which goes against what makes a Pokemon effective in the first place.

Chapter 11 was done in 6 turns because I have Matt, pretty standard. Chapter 12 was done in 4 turns, Matt got a few kills, but nothing of real note other than that. Chapter 13 was done in 5 turns. Marcus carried Hector to the boss and Matt went for the village. There was no time for the Killing Edge or any shops. 15 turns total so far.

Alright, cool. I'll start playing later on in the week. I have other things going on right now.

I don't really think that it sucks. I just think that it is blatantly unfair to change the rules once the first character has been drafted.

Changing the rules after the draft is done is kind of unfair.

Renault