SwordsDude
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I sometimes use some spare ones on standby if it makes a difference for one shotting an opponent withouth taking any damage.
Or on units wich are super slow anyway.
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13 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:
If I may interject, for me the difference is 3H managed to utterly fail to grab my attention even before DLC - honestly, Cindered Shadows is the one part of 3H I might be willing to pay for, the rest has been utterly meh. Doesn't matter how good a deal it is if I'm still not interested in what they're selling, right? How about we look at the 3DS DLC then? I'll spoiler for size convenience, I tend to get wordy.
In Awakening's case, almost every DLC Map came with a special-art version of characters I actually knew with my Smash background(the first four maps I bought had Marth, Roy, Ike, and Lyn, which incidentally is still my favorite artwork of Lyn to date and was the main reason I later purchased the DLC for Fire Emblem Warriors), which carried much more of an appeal to me personally as I could then go ahead and play the game using Units I already knew. Admittedly, the Einherjar could have been implemented into the game a little better, but given that they thought Awakening would probably be the last FE game I'm willing to cut them slack.
In addition, each DLC Map involving the Einherjar came with multiple battle conversations that could only be accessed by pitting specific Shepherds against specific Einherjar(Vaike vs Roy in the original set, never can remember what it's called, Tiki vs Gharnef in Rogues and Redeemers, etc.), which gave further depth to the characters involved and gave me a reason to actually use everyone, so I could see their special conversations - I never would have touched Sumia if I hadn't needed to figure out if she could have a unique conversation with anyone in the first DLC Map(she does, with Caeda). I also still get a good laugh out of Old Hubba every time I come back to Awakening for another playthrough(which will continue to happen until I reach my goal of S-Supporting every possible pairing in the entire game), meaning the DLC is still working to pay off its cost for me.
Moving to the non-Einherjar DLC, I still use Hot-Spring Scramble every playthrough for EXP grinding(it's actually more efficient than the EXP-focused one once you reach a certain point) as well as for Support building, and the bonus Yukata artwork is always a treat to go back and see, not to mention all three Scramble maps contain more of those unique conversations, again incentivizing me to actually use everyone so I can figure out who talks to who - Vaike and Frederick have a conversation? How the heck would I have known that if I hadn't first discovered the Cordelia-Chrom conversation and wanted to see who else could chat on the beach? Frickin' Emmeryn has conversations in Hot-Spring Scramble, it's more meaningful dialogue than she has in almost the entire game as a playable! Then to top it off, the conversations change if I'm married to or parent of the other character? Awesome!
The Grinding Maps saved me quite a bit of time I would have spent on random Risen battles that may or may not have given me the EXP or Weapons I would actually need, and I can half the cost of everything in all shops once I complete Infinite Regalia plus get Eldigan? I didn't even know who Eldigan was, but he looked like a boss, so nice!
Finally, three Maps designed to challenge the player which grant you the three best babes in all of Fire Emblem as rewards, and an ultra-challenge Map I can use to set my final goal for the game, Obtain A Supreme Emblem? Experienced though I am by now, I still find Palla and Catria difficult to obtain(though I've got Est down to a science), and I've only beat Apotheosis once, on the route that gets me...a Grandmaster with Shadowgift? Alright, I'm ok with that!As a collector, completionist, and wannabe writer, the DLC was absolutely worth the money for me on multiple levels, even as someone who couldn't afford to buy more than two Maps at a time, over a long period of time - I still haven't been able to scrape together the extra money to go get the very last DLC Map, Elincia's. And this is just Awakening, I haven't even talked about Fates or SoV! I don't think I'll go over those here, I can give my thoughts on those if anyone wants to hear it but I doubt you all do.
...Basically what I'm trying to say is that you can't just objectively look at it from a hard dollar value, because different people are drawn to different things - Awakening's DLC was meh for you, and that's absolutely fine because that just wasn't worth the money for you, but it was for me. This is why I decided to try to not hate on the FEH Pass, even though I'm definitely not going to be able to afford more than like one month every half a year or so at most and probably won't even bother to try - yeah, I think it was a garbage decision, but there are people who hated how much Fates cost overall yet are just fine dropping however much it is for the FEH Pass, so it goes both ways.
Sorry if you actually tried to say any of this earlier, I haven't looked at this Thread in a while and am mostly speaking for the intent of gathering my own thoughts on the matter.
I get your point but tree houses dlc the majority of the value is in that cindred shadows. all the other stuff is probably only 5$ in value let's be honest. the extra story content was its main selling point at 25$
you did check 3 houses dlc right?
first 3 waves where only clothes some weapons and 2 extra characters a few extra spots it's almost nothing
wave 4 is the majority of the content it's like 5$ for the first 3 waves of dlc and 20$ for wave 4 if i had to guess. if it was selective you might have only saved 5 to 10$. however you probably gained more by wave 4 dlc alone than being selective in awakening imo.
https://fireemblem.nintendo.com/three-houses/downloadable-content/
Also grind maps saving time is debatable depends on what kind of game you want to play.
You could just play through hard or lunatic mode withouth grinding easily. heck those modes even block those monster units on past roads by giving them max stats making them unbeatable anyway.
Also in the grind way, you could easily spend 20+ hours on that. while withouth grinding you probably might have beaten the game by than.
If you want to play the games like the classic older FE games I would not recommend grind maps at all since all the difficulty is gone with those. If you want to cheese the game parade through the game like a god while fighting weaklings than yes dlc maps are way to go. Only in lunatic plus is the game even remotely challenging than and some dlc maps. however some skill combinations like nosefatsu tanks arhmthrift galeforce etc etc where kinda broken so even than difficulty was questionable.
Personally I enjoyed my playthroughs in awakening the most withouth grinding as in past games, but i could see why people like to over power stuff with big numbers.
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59 minutes ago, Venmi said:
(EDIT: This is an insanely long post- sorry. The summary is that business costs can be very complicated and not what you expect, and we don't know what Nintendo's profits are. Also, I'm very partial to small businesses.)
Reading the conversations about how much the game can cost to make reminds me that there are so many things we don't know about Nintendo's operating and development costs. I'm the daughter of a small business owner who eventually started his own business that employs only my parents. I've worked in a small business, corporate (one company smaller than 100 people and one with employees in the thousands), academic, and non-profit environment. I've also been a moderator on a internet forum run by a company and worked for an online tutoring center. I've been involved in process improvements, product development, and employee training. Until I worked in those various environments, I had no idea of the costs that go into each of the various companies and how much it costs to run any of them, including the non-profit. Even after working for them, I couldn't accurately tell you how much they cost to run. Without detailed reports to tell us exactly how much art, voice, bug testing, development, planning, advertising, servers, etc. cost, we can't say with any degree of certainty that FEH is cheap to make or run. Some businesses run very efficiently- some don't. It's possible FEH profit is low, or astronomically high. We also don't know how low profits would need to be before Nintendo cuts their losses. One of the companies my dad works with spends a ton of time on development, but will drop a product as soon as they start to see some competition in the area as they no longer consider it worth the cost. That's a multi-billion dollar company, so many people would think they have plenty of surplus income they can afford to waste.
A little example: I was at my favorite ice cream shop today. Their ice cream is horribly expensive, but I consider it worth it. When I paid, I said to the owner behind the cashier, "so expensive for so little ice cream, and yet it's so good!" He smiled and told me that he was doing everything he could to keep the price down, but it was so expensive to run his shop that he was stuck with charging these prices. He also mentioned that due to an upcoming minimum wage hike in my area, he would likely have to fire half his workers and raise prices in order to make ends meet. The expensive ice cream has to be that way for his shop to be profitable, and other things, like laws, are making it difficult for his business to survive even with the high prices. (And yes, I am not a fan of minimum wage laws for exactly this reason. It comes from people like him and being the daughter of a small business owner. Big companies can handle it, but small business that are paying their employees all they can can't afford the higher wages and end up with higher operating costs than they can handle.)
All I want to say is Nintendo understands their costs much better than we do (and I was thinking about that small business owner today, hence the insanely long post). Someone at Nintendo thought that FEH pass was a good idea, and they are likely wrong. However, that doesn't mean that they could afford to add 100 orbs each month in order to make it more attractive. That may very well lead to a loss, as suddenly dolphins like me would no longer have to spend $39.99 for 77 orbs like I've done in the past, and whales would also be saved money each month. The goal should be to convince dolphins like me to ultimately spend more, not less, as well as enticing my free-to-play sister to buy. It may sound like a loss that Nintendo can recoup because profits are so high, but we don't actually know what those profits are. We don't know how much that would cost them in lost sales. We also don't know how much profits Nintendo considers "good enough" to keep the game running. If it starts operating with a low profit margin, Nintendo could, and possibly very well should, ramp down and stop investing so much before they start losing money each year. Businesses are meant to make money, and if a product isn't successful, they are likely to drop the product. That would likely put employees out of jobs (because not all IS employees would likely be able to move immediately onto a different project in the same company) and cost us a game we enjoy. The goal should be to find a way to entice those who are spending to spend more and/or entice new people to spend money in a way that doesn't alienate the player base. If the player base spend less due to FEH pass, it's not worth it to Nintendo.
So as much as I would love 100 orbs for $10, I don't think it would be healthy for the game overall for that to happen. At least, I don't have the information to know it would be, and my gut says it would hurt way more than help. I'd also like to have my ice cream for $0.50, as overpriced ice cream won't last forever and has no resale value. But in order for a business to keep going, they need to make money. And I don't know what it takes for a business, whether an ice cream shop or Nintendo, to make enough profit.
How much did the game from release change compared to what it is now aside from the characters and power creep.
Also do you really think that feh mobile app in the beginning was supposed to earn 650 million. was it supposed to be big or small budget etc do you really think they spend more than the 3ds titles awakening and fates wich has some of the best sales in the series If I had to guess it was supposed to be a fraction of the costs just to advertise the mainline games. a ton of mobile gacha games do not make over 100 million$ heck most are profitable at only 1 million a year also are we forgetting dragalia lost wich made 6 times less money and is succefull?. it was something to test the waters and to advertise the main series, this wasnt a big budget title like say mario kart tour wich did go hard because feh a low budget title earned so much money.
It was well above their expectations and I'm not to sure if their budget in the beginning was actually high. considering that they only made it to advertise the main games.
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if where looking at standard orb prices. around 50 cents an orb with the higher amounts. or with them orb deals.
the feh pass gives 10 orbs. wich is around 5$ worth of orbs
than you have 5$ left for all the pay to win stuff + the extra skins + some extra features.
Sure there are some discount packs but it's not that much better.
in terms of deals compared to the ingame purchases even if you would include monthly deals. it is one of the better deals in the game for what you get, it is a better deal than those montlhy orb packs thanks to the extra features and the few replendid heroes that you get each month.
However naturally since ingame purchases where high from the very beginning. and feh pass is more in your face about it it's not reall that great to the lesser spenders.
I don't think 20 or 30 orbs in the fehpass + all the extra stuff would give feh pass postive rep. to much stuff locked behind a paywall, and people love freedom. also again 10$ a month it's just a thing that people don't like to think about even people who spend more on the game per month. it's a negative image.
Montly orb packs where not forced in you spending money per month everytime for the whole year. again feh pass probably pisses off even people who did occasionally buy those orb deals multiple times a year with no problems at all.
Only time will tell I guess,maybe, revenue will increase. I highly doubt it considering that only higher spenders a fraction of playerbase see it as a positive but who knows.
2 hours ago, XRay said:If Feh Pass was strictly for the Heroes, resources, Expanded Summoner Support, and it was not annoying, players would have been fine with it.
I'm pretty sure most people are pissed that the replendid hero skins and the expanded summoner support are locked behind a paywall. not to mention the added permanent stats.
Might be better if free players had a shot to get those and that the pass just guarantees people who pay to have them instead of relying on rng summons for non feh pass owners. Summoner support in a lesser degree but again it's an unfair feature. those 2 things are prime examples of locking content behind a paywall.
Also i don't think FE heroes will run short on money anytime soon
We did discuss the prices
so at the start it costed let's say 400K to 1 million to develop a high end mobile game including first year server costs. let's go high and say 1 million for feh heroes.
The game had 491 characters. let's say it's 800$ per character art + voice acting let's say 400K added in them extra features in the 2 3 years that the game is out
And let's say 200K for management and server costs per year. it came out in 2017 so let's say 2 more years of maintenance + server costs 400K
so 1.8 Million invested into this game. I think feh will do just fine. heck let's double it for the heck of it, 3.6 million let's inflate the costs even if it is probablly allot less. even at only 10 million revenue a year it's plenty of profit I'd say. New Character art and voice acting will be 150 - 200 K a year server costs and management around 200K a year. 350 - 500K a year maintenance + extra content.
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The feh pass was a bad idea it will cost them tons of revenue in the longrun
They where to greedy, they should have known that below high spenders the pass would be seen as negative. your whale players already spend a ton the pass won't make a big difference if only those people buy it.
The pass prevents new players to enter the game and it discourages smaller and medium spenders. who didnt pay attention that they did spend 50 100 200+ $ on the game per year anyway. single purchases add up. so in the short term they might lose those small to medium player spendings.
In the long run less odd to get new future whales. The subscription system in a gacha game is a pretty flawed system imo. you only gain more revenue if a sizable chunk buys the subscription and anyone with common sense would have figured that only the more heavy spenders would buy it.
also even if they make the feh pass crazy good in wich even medium spenders might buy it. you'll still lose the new stream of players. There is not really a way to make the feh pass look good. people will still be salty if it is only 5$ a month or less.
I'm pretty sure that a subscription system will probably even hurt games such as grand fate order. They should have learned from mario kart tour. it had tons of downloads in such a short time over 4 times the player base of fe heroes. it broke records yet the income is very mediocre because of all the negative press. they killed future spenders from the very start.
They have already made people pissed
If they want some form of damage control I'd at the very least would say that all skins and features would be accesible withouth a pass.
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1 hour ago, XRay said:
Netflix, World of Warcraft, Audible, etc. are all subscription based services and are all doing really well. You might not like the subscription based model, but plenty of people are fine with it.
That is too extreme in my opinion and it would not help with sales. Feh Pass needs to be advertised properly, not have it hidden away. If they just advertised Feh Pass non intrusively like they do with Orbs, it would not have annoyed so many players.
You can't compare a netflix subscription to a subscription for a gacha.
Netflix among the majority of people is considered a crazy good deal. it's cheaper than regular television actually
renting 1 or 2 movies online costs more than netflix wich gives you acces to pretty much everything except the super recent stuff. if you buy 1 single movie physical it's already more pricy than 1 month of netflix. and you can even share the account to make it dirt cheap. netflix is crazy value in the movie series sector
Netflix is literally the reason why regular tv is dying. Even cheap people will consider netflix as a great deal and it is. it is much cheaper than anything else in that sector
You can say that it is opinion based but in reality services like netflix dominate the movie markets atm among casuals worldwide.
The only reason why one would consider netflix to be a bad deal is if one does not like to watch movies series etc.
if where talking deluxe cable tv options. netflix killed it. all those services to rent single movies netflix killed it.
Word of warcraft sure I agree. however world of warcraft in it's hayday with 11 million active people has a hell lot more server costs than a mobile gacha. the monthly payments where needed.
server costs for mmorpg's are way more expensive to maintain. you need to be online at all times multiple people at the same time. registering moves and damage per second. It's more heavy than say monster hunter world or smash bros in wich you just have to connect a few players not connection millions of players at the same time. also in the old days wow did not have any micro transactions. no pay to win aspects aside from buying an account from somebody else.
server costs for world of warcraft costed 137000 $ a day
https://www.geek.com/games/world-of-warcraft-facts-put-in-perspective-1106111/
and for a game like pokemon go in an article wich I provided yesterday. server costs for a 1 year are only 150K you only need to transfer a bit of data after all. the online aspect does not need to be precise and is mostly single player.
and if you have a smaller playerbase like Fire emblem heroes those server costs would be allot less aswell.
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Your not supposed to grind in a gba fire emblem game or any fire emblem game actually except for the modern ones on certain difficulties.
If the games are to easy for you even on the more difficult modes if you grind to much that's all on you
Grinding in especially the older fire emblem games kills the difficulty and gameplay imo.
There is a reason why arena and boss abuse are not considered normal gameplay. you usually only have few units at max lvl by the end of the game with normal play or not even that.
Withouth grinding you can also just clear the more difficult modes and actually need to have some strategy. Optimise your lvl ups etc. The games where designed with the exp given to you in the maingame. if you grind you get way to much exp killing the difficulty. ofcourse the games are going to be childs play than.
I really miss those days of old school fire emblem. FE shadow dragon mystery of the emblem and radiant dawn older kinda games.
Also being stuck in certain chapters since you fucked up with the lvl balance or that to many of your good units died. I loved that rarely any other games are that punishing. that's one of the main things about the older fire emblem games that I loved. if you play badly on the higher difficulties you have to restart from chapter 1 if you don't have any other save file and decided to keep on playing while losing stuff.
awakening and up kinda lost that classic FE punishing survival aspect even on the more difficult modes.
also you seem to like the difficulty in path of radiance.
If where talking classic fire emblem games before awakening, path of radiance is by far the easiest game in the series. so yes it's allot easier withouth grinding even on hard but that's not saying much. all fe games where perfectly doable withouth grinding some games just needed more strategy and for you to recognize wich units have great potential growths and wich units where better left on the bench.
I love path of radiance btw but the difficulty in that game was a minor nitpick. and the japanese version had a harder maniac setting wich might have fixed that issue so that's quite a shame that all western releases did not get that, it was japan only.
20 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:and so you know, I'm talking about the GBA FE games on
their Normal difficulty level, Hard or Higher can be just as easy IMO, but takes
more grinding, if you don't grind you could have a very annoying time
finishing the game, and might even get stuck mid playthrough,also say like secret shops to buy stat boosters. if you don't arena abuse you can barely buy any of those anyway they are so pricy you need to buy weapons for the army aswell after all. money wasnt that plentyfull in a ton of the older games after all. not to mention that most people missed those secret anna shops during play throughs anyway. GL finding those withouth a guide
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Fates was better especially conquest. gameplay is king for me.
Prefer awakening over fates conquest though.
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12 hours ago, Icelerate said:
Do you think the FEH pass will increase the revenue, decrease the revenue or have no effect on the revenue?
I think it will actually slightly decrease the revenue and it might potentially speed up that process in the long run by a quite bit aswell. whale players are a fraction of the population. and your actually scaring allot of the smaller to medium spenders away. it will not decrease to much since the majority of the earnings are still from the small fraction of whale players.
and let's not forget that the feh pass subscription + locking gameplay features and exclusive skins to that also kinda scares potential new players away who didnt play the game yet. every small medium or whale spender was a free player after all. so the feh pass is a dumb idea when you think about it. on paper it seems awesome if pretty much every player pays for the subscription while in reality it might make people quit the game including spenders and you'll gain less new players.
Whales will for sure buy the feh pass since it is a better deal than regular orb prices that's not even a contest for what you get. But it's a very small gain compared to the losses that they will get, considering that the smaller to medium spenders might stop spending and quit since they notice the cost of the game.
Mario kart tour is an excellent example in how a subscrption ruined the revenue. it has less than 100 million revenue and it had so much negative press thanks to the pass. mario kart tour killed potential whales and smaller spenders from the very start, worst way to start a brand new game. It would have probably made way more money withouth a subscription even animal crossing beats that game. it had way more downloads than FEH ever had They kinda killed potential whales or yearly smaller spenders. those spending can add up maybe more than the feh pass. that revenue might be lost thanks to the feh pass. since only the small% of whales will mostly buy the pass.
https://sensortower.com/blog/nintendo-revenue-one-billion
The trick to gacha games is that people spend a bit here and there and don't notice the costs what's 20$ here and there 6 to 10 times a year they forget about it or that 50$ bill for that one character people like freedom, that's the key to succes in gacha. Most people do not want to remind themselves of their purchases in a gacha game especially non whale players. the feh pass kinda remind them of those costs though your taking away some of that freedom especially when exclusive stuff is locked behind a pass, We also live in a world when you already have a ton of subscriptions, one for a single game is a but to much for allot of people even if they did spend a couple hundred $ on the game in single purchases with not problems at all. I even think a 1$ subscription will piss people off since they are forced to pay for the game every month. Most people don't like that.
IMO if they wanted to have a pass system, only provide it to the bigger whales in secret send those a message when they spend a certain amount like 500$. and don't lock certain features skins or characters to said service since free or low spending players like to have the illusion that they could gain any unit or gameplay feature withouth spending a single dime. also a ton of those people might spend a decent chunk at some point anyway when they missed some events or for a favourite character since such players do invest a ton of time into the game.
again you need to treat gacha players gently otherwise they'll go away. Now if you are to give a pass to a whale player. they will buy it since they already warmed up to the game to spend money. however allot of small to medium sized spenders are not yet warmed up to the idea of spending on a subscription.
You can compare it to the boiled frog syndrome
If you heat up the pan to fast the frog is scared and jumps away. but if you rise the temperature slowly you could literally boil them to death since they didnt notice the increase in the temperature.
The smaller and medium spenders have not been boiled enough to appreciate the feh pass. so FEH cranked the temperature a bit to high losing a sizable chunk of those players in the process. A whale obviously used to those high cooking temperatures doesn't notice it a bit and likes the idea of the pass it's another great deal to spend money on.
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15 hours ago, Falcom Knight said:
At least in the 3DS era DLCs could were selectable.
Nowadaysthe player is forced to buy the entire content at once without knowing the content.
That's why I never will buy the Three Houses Pass because nothing aside of the new route interests me.
Are you sure if the old system was better. you where paying 3$ or more for a single map giving some skills or for some story new classes. and those added up would it really be that much more pricy.
Awakening dlc was 60$ total. 55$ when you got in early for the first dlc being free. It is btw more pricy than 60$ if you did not buy the 3 map packs if you decide to to pick 1 of 3 per dlc update.
And than we compare it to fire emblem tree houses with 25$ dlc in wich the majority of the value clearly is in the extra story content. and where not talking just a single map here. probably more content than those single purchases in awakening. Would awakening be that much cheaper if you where selective I'm not to sure. and again single maps per purchase.
The new method of dlc is more value for your buck. since in awakening you paid more for less. Dlc in general is never that great of a deal, Tree houses did however do dlc better imo the 3ds was way to pricy.
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45 minutes ago, eclipse said:
. . .do you honestly think that "hey look at my DeviantART I do commissions" and something for a video game would have equivalent rates?
How much do you know about the Heroes artists?
FE heroes has a ton of different artists wich made just 1 to multiple characters . meaning that a ton of characters in feh with them updates are just a commision for a ton of artists who participated. a side job for the moment. most artists are free lancers after all and doing multiple commisions at a time.
I we say look at this guy who has done 3 characters in feh heroes like the Lucina exalt bunny suit.
https://www.deviantart.com/tomiokajiro/gallery
https://twitter.com/tomioka2#_=_
in his twitter page the recommended commision price is 25000 yen wich is 230 dollars as a guide line.
There are some artists with 5+ characters so i'd imagine a bigger job for those but a ton of artists only did literally 1 to 3 characters.
I'm not going to say that the art prices are facts. but looking it all them profiles of said artists. it's pretty much what i expected of the more popular artists on deviant art pixit with such prices. it's not that much different. high end commisions rarely exceed 500$ and if you order multiple characters at once you'll get a package deal making it cheaper per character
Where not talking artists like ken sugimori who work full time only for pokemon and don't do anything else. or artists for zelda mario games pretty much any big game. or in the case of tree houses in wich the guy had to work full time on it. where talking a few pictures per character only after all.
Usually when where talking game development you have some artists who work full time and do all the work but in the case of feh heroes it seems like a commision based system per character. they have so many artists who only do a few characters after all.
I'll back off with the dicussions for now. But I really think some people might overestimate the costs of the art and especially the voice acting in the regular updates.
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12 minutes ago, eclipse said:
. . .are you estimating, or are you absolutely certain about these figures? You'll have to take into account that the rates will use whatever JP has standard, at least for art.
for the voice acting around 60$ an hour is fairly normal if you look around can't imagine a few voice lines exceeding that time limit. only really popular roles get full time jobs and a better salary than that. overall voice actors for games and anime are not great paying jobs unless where talking some really popular character roles wich get allot of screen time.
and as far as art part goes it could differ but don;t expect sky high numbers. a ton of the more popular sought after artists rarely do commisions wich exceed the 500$ usually 250$ mark for simular drawing quality as in FEH heroes or a ton of other gacha games
Here's a link to all the artsis in feh heroes
https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Artists_of_the_Fire_Emblem_series/Fire_Emblem_Heroes
The feh heroes art is just another commision for such artists.
Now the artist for say tree houses had to do allot more than just a few pics so in those cases it will naturally be far more pricy than 500$ maybe even a full time job to name one example. it all depends on the size of the commision really.
also if where talking japanese artists a ton of them are heavily under paid in wich they only earn around 500$ a month so really hard to tell depends wich artists they choose really. a ton of people in the japanese art sector get abused big time since they enjoy doing it so much.
However I'd imagine they would pick some of the better artists so 250 to 500$ per commision is probably the correct estimate.
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24 minutes ago, eclipse said:
First link: Pokemon GO and Fire Emblem Heroes are two completely different beasts. QA is far better in the latter, for one. . .along with voice/art hires, none of which Pokemon GO has to deal with (and it's a recurring expense, since new characters are added regularly).
Second link: With no sources for those numbers other than their statements, I'm going to go with "my magic 8-ball" for those budget numbers.Voice actors don't earn as much as you might think. they usually get paid 60 to 100$ an hour especially if where talking anime and games. and where not talking big roles here with them new characters, these are just a couple of lines usually. and they are not getting paid for practice at home.
Might just be 100 to 200$ per character for voice acting only heck maybe even 50$ it's usually just a couple of voice lines. voice acting with those few voice lines are not going to break the bank anytime soon. There are exceptions for really popular roles such as goku vegeta mario etc for the better paid gigs but feh isnt one of them I'd imagine just the normal rates at around 60$ an hour.
Same goes for the artists for the new characters. sure it adds up but where not talking big money here. probably around 500$ per update if i had to guess.
So new character art and voice acting 500 to 1000$ per update I'd say. these people do tons of other things on the side this isnt a full time job for those voice actors or artists. it's just one of the many commisions that they do.
I'd still say that pokemon go is probably the more expensive game to make compared to fe heroes. voice acting and 2d art aren't that pricy.
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41 minutes ago, XRay said:
The point is there is no information to claim either way.
You cannot claim something as true if there is not strong enough evidence to support it. Unless you have direct knowledge on how Heroes is made and what the costs are, we cannot claim Heroes is cheaper to make compared to regular games.
Just because most oranges taste sweeter than apples, does not mean all oranges are sweeter than apples. Nintendo's statement is saying that their oranges and apples are really sweet, and because they did not elaborate on which one is sweeter, there is a possibility that their apples are sweeter than oranges. Due to financial reporting guidelines and how it works, if Nintendo's statement only said that their oranges are really sweet, then we can pretty confidently assume that Nintendo's oranges are sweeter than their apples. With how things are worded, the possibility is high enough that I am unwilling to assume that Heroes is cheaper to make.
1. This peron's oranges are really sweet.
2. This peron's oranges and apples are really sweet.For statement 1, we know oranges are really sweet, and since apples are not mentioned, we know that the apples' sweetness is irrelevant and we can safely assume apples are not really sweet. With how financial reporting guidelines work, I can say that the person's oranges are sweeter than the apples with 99% certainty.
For statement 2, we know both fruits are really sweet, but since the person did not elaborate on which one is sweeter, there is a possibility that their apples are sweeter than their oranges. With how financial reporting guidelines work, I can say that the person's oranges are sweeter than the apples with 70% certainty. While 70% might seem high to you, that level of certainty is not enough to safely assume that oranges are sweeter than apples, at least not in my profession.
you did check the articles right. the costs for mobile apps
https://stfalcon.com/en/blog/post/pokemon-go-clone-development-cost
https://www.imaginovation.net/blog/mobile-game-app-development-cost/
an app like pokemon go would cost 400 to 600K to develop
and the most high end mobile games would cost around 1 Million.
also dragalia lost is a succes with just 40 million a year. probably a very simular budget to fe heroes. not to mention tons of gacha games with not that much lesser visuals and content being succesfull with just a 1 to a few Million dollars a year.
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2 hours ago, XRay said:
It is not just the Google fee though. We simply do not have the information to conclude that. There could be more than just distribution fees.
That is the point, we do not know what the costs are going into Heroes. Heroes is not a regular game where Nintendo develops once, makes cartridges for, and distributes traditionally.
Heroes has a completely different development model, has no cartridges to speak of, and has an entirely different distribution and revenue generation model.
We already have little to no information concerning how much money is going into each product, so claiming any game costs more than any other game on the same system is just wild speculation. On top of that, we are comparing two games with two different business models on two different systems and we have no idea what the costs are going into each business model.
Additionally, Nintendo has specifically stated that the development of mobile applications was substantial in the same sentence as traditional games. This statement by Nintendo alone means we do not have the information to compare the cost of Heroes to the cost of traditional games.
All of us assumed Heroes was cheap to make compared to traditional games. However, that statement from Nintendo directly contradicts our assumptions. If Nintendo did not mention the cost of mobile applications, then it would be pretty reasonable to assume that Heroes is in fact cheaper.
Do you have an article in wich nintendo states this? that mobile apps are not that cheap to produce? if where looking at grapics maybe only mario kart tour falls in that category if I had to guess. the grapics did look pretty good for that title. more advanced than say pokemon go or 2d art work hard to tell really.
Eitherway
What about this, they say that a game like pokemon go cost around 450 to 600K to make. I've also seen multiple articles stating that even the most high end games might only be around 1 million to develop tops.
and when all is said and done you only have server costs and some smaller updates per year. and pokemon go is one of the big boys. so maintenance per year might only be 100 to 200K
also keep in mind that fe heroes has less players than pokemon go for those online activities. Meaning less server costs for online play. also server costs for mobile games in general don't require that much connection to say online pvp in games or mmorpg's in wich your connected with tons of people at all times. needing to register moves of all people at all times in real time. calculations etc something that is not needed with online games on mobile. usually just sending over some data and it's done.
https://stfalcon.com/en/blog/post/pokemon-go-clone-development-cost
https://www.imaginovation.net/blog/mobile-game-app-development-cost/
Also nintendo's mobile games like dragalia lost are succesfull with just 120 million lifetime revenue. surely fe heroes does not have 5 times the investment of dragalia lost.
https://sensortower.com/blog/nintendo-revenue-one-billion
even if fe heroes revenue dropped to 30 - 40 million a year it could still be profitable I'd imagine just 5 to 10 million being a succes If I'm looking at those numbers for a a mobile game like pokemon. dragalia lost is also considered one of the better gacha games after all. with just 120 Million life time sales. 40 million a year
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10 hours ago, Jave said:
This is fine and all, but the problem here is that you can't combine the revenue of a series of games the years (three decades, in this case) precisely because of inflation, as you're not accounting for any of the production costs, interest and taxes, which makes all the numbers unreliable.
And again, this is not the point of this thread. The point is that FEH is losing revenue over the years, and if the trend continues, eventually they'll be at a loss.
Here's his point though and especially if we pick a lower value.
Let's say 50$ a game on average since a sizable chunk is 40$ a game he does have a point that it does his point a bit more
15.7 Million FE games have been sold wich includes spinoffs times 50$ that's 785 million$ of raw revenue withouth profit just like With FE heroes
FE heroes on the other hand made over 650 million maybe 700 million at this very moment
THe FE series including spinoffs has 20 + games
FE heroes almost has the same revenue as pretty much all FE games on the market that have been sold.
Doesn't fe heroes make plenty if we consider that. Unless you guys really think that FE heroes is more pricy to produce than 20+ actual FE games including some spinoffs
650 million for 1 single mobile game vs 785 million of 20+ full games in wich allot of people including me would probably would assume that even a single base game would have a higher dev cost than FE heroes. just like FE heroes that revenue is raw. we still have developtment costs for 20 games advertising taxes you name it..
If I had to guess this is what he means and I have to agree with him FE heroes is only 20% less total revenue than the entire FE franchise period. It's allot wich is why you would think that a revenue drop might not be that big of a deal.
and even if we upped that value to 60$ a game it doesnt make that much of a difference FE heroes almost made more money than the entire fire emblem franchise. so it really let's someone think how high was that profit margin compared to 20+ base games. considering that a single mobile app earned almost as much money as 20+ actual FE games. also before 3ds era. pretty much all main fire emblem games had very mediocre sales. so before 3ds era there profit margins where almost break even barely worth it. nes and snes era where considered alright at the time with 300 K to almost 1 M sales for each game. GBA to wii/ ds era was horrific with tops 300K sales for a 1 single game but everything else dipping below 300K units by a sizable chunk even as low as 150k units. they probably broke even or made some losses in the gba till wii era there is a reason why awakening could have been the final game in the series. as their last effort to get above 300K units again.
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15 minutes ago, Jave said:
The problem is that you can't use DLC to jack up the average because:
1) Not everyone who bought the game bought the DLC.
2) The Fates numbers are the combined sales of Birthright and Conquest, each of which were sold at $40. So you can't put the number at $100 when it's a dual-version scenario and most people bought the game twice. Revelation is a different scenario but we don't know the exact numbers AFAIK.
3) If you're going to bring up inflation, then please provide proper numbers to make your argument, because inflation is nowhere near as simple as "it increases the price". The earlier games were Japan-only so that brings in the problem of Japanese pricing and inflation to account for, and I don't think you've made any compelling arguments in your post.
Finally, the problem in this topic, and the reason this thread was made in the first place, was to show that Nintendo/IntSys is LOSING REVENUE on its FEH sales in a year-after-year basis. The comparison of FEH's 3-year revenue to the series' all-time revenue is a flawed one to begin with, because it's not the same type of good or service being sold.
https://www.ign.com/articles/2016/10/04/comparing-the-price-of-every-game-console-with-inflation
Inflation for the nes games would mean 60$ times 2.25 135$ per game sale
snes sale was times 1.75 making it 100$ per game sale for the console games
Gamecube era wich is roughly gba era aswell was only 35% inflation so 55$ for the gba games and 80$ for console games.
wii and ds era is only 20% inflation so 50$ for handheld and 72 $ for console games.
Also I'm pretty sure that at least 10 to 20% of 3ds owners bought some or full dlc. otherwise it would not make any sense to keep that trend going. Same for collectors editions after fates it was a huge succes in wich even spinoffs like fire emblem warriors have a collectors edition wich again inflates the price. 10 to 20% at the very least I'd say.
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1 hour ago, Jave said:
You can't use that as an average when at least seven games in the series retailed at $40 or less (since they were released on handheld systems).
True but 3ds onwards all had dlc aswell.
And awakening till valentia had dlc that surpassed the base game costs making the total price over 80 - 90$ for the people that needed everything? Fates had 3 games basicly 100$ for everything. you could also include collectors editions sales wich happened from valentia onwards wich again surpass base game costs. past FE games didnt have that. ok there was one exception on the super famicom but it was actually so rare that those sales could be ignored.
unlike tree houses with just 25$ dlc, the dlc in them 3ds titles was quite a bit more than that.
not to mention that older sales of 40$ also includes inflation, not to mention the especially 5 console games at 60$, raising that price quite a bit. this series released multiple games on the famicom and super famicom after all.That's 5 games on a console of 60$ before the gba era plus inflation increasing that price.
I'd say 60$ on average is good enough considering inflation of the gba, nes amd snes era + especially dlc and collectors editions wich surpassed the base game costs in pretty much all 3ds titles you don't need exact numbers after all, we get his point and his estimate is pretty alright all things considered,
Majority of sales is base game only. however added inflation and the smaller portion of people that did buy dlc or the collectors editions would probably make up for the small loss at 40$ handheld prices to make the average around 60$ per game sale in the end I'd say.
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26 minutes ago, XRay said:
You need to double check your source or math. I was expecting at least a Wikipedia source or something similar at the bare minimum, so you still have not learned how to cite your work. My math works out to be about $125 (32 million downloads; $4 billion gross revenue) per download.
You want articles as proof since you think I'm talking BS consider it done.
grand fate order
291 to 487 per download. with japan obviously raking that spending limit to the skies
https://sensortower.com/blog/fate-grand-order-revenue-4-billion
feh
39.90$ per single download
https://www.pocketgamer.biz/asia/news/72153/mario-kart-tour-revenue-reason-for-optimism/
no calculations needed if multiple sources mention it.
all other nintendo games except for dragalia lost at 35$ are 5$ per download or way less. so yea
Also i don't think revenue per download will go down anytime soon rather go up since spendings will still happen but less new players will download the app . These apps have raked in the main crowd already grand fate order for sure if i had to guess. a substantial amount of new players is the only way for revenue per download to go down.
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I do not think you get it. You need to stay in school and maybe get a part-time job so the Feh Pass would not look like such a daunting purchase, because you have little memory of the recession and you could not comprehend what I just told you. I will highlight it again so I hope you will understand what I am saying in the future and appreciate the work I put into this Google Sheet.
I have a well paying job don't give me that crap, I'm pretty sure that even the majority of people that complain can easily afford that each month. most people complain about the price compared to a full priced game at 60$ a ton of people like to compare it to other games considering it's also a game. also feh pass is the better deal compared to lose orb prices but even than people probably didnt like the orb prices in the first place however it's more in your face about it wich is why people opened their mouth this time around.
ton of non whale People probably did make some small purchases here and there withouth noticing their total cost. however with the feh pass your always having that image of spending over 100$ a year on this game. It's the same as like cooking a frog alive slowly. When you do it to fast the frog is in shock and jumps out immidiately. but if you do it slowly the frog will be boiled alive withouth noticing it.
Small purchases is the slow cook method in wich people didnt notice it. the feh pass rakes up the temperature a bit to fast always reminding people of it during gameplay resulting in people realising the costs of the game and comparing it to other stuff.
also I'm pretty sure even a kid with some small time pocket money could spend that. but enough about that.
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I don't see any console sales in those sheets only handheld.
Also they didnt do to bad with the recession they had excellent results. multiple articles actually.
https://www.pcworld.com/article/164488/article.html
and if where talking 2010 to 2012 having lower profits or even earlier with debts.
Pusing wii sales you say more like developing the next generation. if they would only push wii sales those costs would not be a problem that means more profit. developing an entire new console with games for the new gimmick now that's only a loss for those years until you can put it up for sale.
it takes years to develop a console it doesnt happen overnight after all.
Considering that the wii u came out in 2012 they where already investing allot to make the next console generation or what do you think about the 3ds coming out in 2011. and 2012 and up where horrible times for Nintendo the wii u was a flop people though it was just a wii. parents buying wii u games wich did not work on the original wii in wich even store employees had to explain that the wii u is a brand new console to parents.
Developing a brand new console costs money. allot of it until a console is out on the market the money invested in it is a loss.
And yes ps3 didnt do to hot that generation. they pretty much broke even in the end. sony did horrible that gen.
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Nothing wrong with liking and supporting the game but your really overselling the product that is feh heroes.
I find it hilarious that you think that they don't have a map creator and start from scratch for every update especially considering that all their advance wars games had one. literally game cardridges wich where on the market for vs battles against others or cpu. dark conflict probably had the best map editor in the series.
You make it seem like that the game is actually better than the mainline games. that the content is on equal grounds.
your telling me that relying on whales for hundreds of$ per person per update is a fair business strategy?
It's a bit rich for my blood. and don't give me the argument that your to poor to afford it. Pretty much everyone can afford it with a decent job. a couple hundred$ or more per month is nothing for most people.
Each person has their own opinion on wich they spend their money on, so yea as long as people are willing to pay 100 $- 300$ per update than so be it. it kinda seems like Sunk cost fallacy to me
it works though. the average spending per download on FE heroes is 40$. Maybe they'll reach the greatness of grand fate order in wich the average download rakes in at 500$ per person 😂
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53 minutes ago, XRay said:
Fire Emblem Heroes on the other hand can entertain the masses completely free if the players chooses so, almost everyone has access to a smart phone these days so very few people are left out, produces much less carbon dioxide since there are no physical products to ship around the world, and everyone who made Heroes is employed in first world countries democratic countries.
Your giving feh a bit to much credit lol. I get that you like the game but especially in this market what you usually gain for the same amount of money there is a reason why people find a couple hundred $ for a jpeg to much. it;s kinda insane that some people defend it in the first place.
There is one thing I agree with on though yes fe heroes including whale spendings is entertainment for the masses
considering that most whales are not even slightly rich in the first place they just spend a sizable chunk of their income every month. unlike a ferrari in wich a person is actually rich. People don't even have a shot to make a stupid decision for those expenses.
In terms of succes if where talking Nintendo
The nintendo wii sold 100 million + units it's one of the selling consoles of all time
and the ds with 155 million units is just 1 million below the ps2 at 2nd place
that era was the most profitable for nintendo. It's the reason why nintendo could survive in the crappy wii u era since they had a ton of reserves left of that succesfull era
Both those consoles had succes in the main stream. The switch however isnt even close to that thanks to mobile phones. It's a market more focusses on gamers now. way less casual people in the market today compared to wii and ds era.
Switch combines both handheld and console sales at 50 million sales atm?
DS and wii combined where almost 260 million. not to mention have you seen game sales in wii era
Wow big deal smash bros sold for 16 million a few other titles like botw and pokemon aswell.
DS had had those sales and than some
if where looking at wii almost their entire top 10 sold over 20 million games usually 30 million if not more
Mario kart wii sold 37 million compared to 22 million on switch and if where going outside the top 5 it's already close to 10 million copies only
DS while less sales them top sales are 25 and 30 million and that doesnt even include pokemon mario bros mario kart
even on ds pokemon barely even breaks the top 5 wii and ds sales blast the switch games sales out of the water withouth the need for any pokemon games at all.
You can't be serious that the wii and ds era where not that great in terms of revenue. They where like literally at the top of the market
They beat sony in the console wars with the wii xbox 360 and ps3 bowed down before the wii. and in the handheld market they where absolute kings psp did nothing.
if we compare sales they sold way more back than. and considering that the switch combined both it's way less than the 2 at once.
your telling me that
255 million consoles sales vs 50 million is almost equal?
your telling me that game sales of both those platforms wich all outsold the switch pretty big means equal revenue. multiple games with over 20 or 30 million sales compared to the top 5 on switch wich is 15 million on average. seperately the slaughter the switch. and combined let's not talk about that.
LMAO it's the reason why they could survive till the switch era after the failure that was the wii u. 3ds sales did not cover those losses very well same for the amiibo hype.
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5 hours ago, XRay said:
Because calling other people's hard work, time, and effort as cheap and unworthy is quite frankly inconsiderate and insulting. It will be no different going to a restaurant and telling them that you can cook something similar at home for a fraction of the cost and their food is overpriced and not worth it.
if it really is that pricy why not waste those resources on actual games instead. if we are looking at the content of feh heroes it doesnt seem like to much. but if it's the same cost or surpassing an actual game in terms of development costs than damm doesnt seem that hot.
Fairly sure the actual game is cheap as chips to make. the majority of the costs of a gacha game are in maintenance and mainly advertising. those last 2 things are the only things that could make the game more pricy than an actual FE game since the game is being kept up and updated for years. also advertisment can be pricy.
Speaking of anniversairy maps. I'm pretty sure at this point in time they already have a map creator. to just easily make maps. sorta like mario maker 2.
Ever played them advance wars game from inteligent systems? all games had a map designer in wich you could create your own maps terrains enemy placements etc etc. at the very beginning when they created the game sure it had to be done from scratch but at this point they probable have some map creator just like in say advance wars.
Literally some of their older games had map creators aswell for the players to use. why start from scratch all the time when you can just add some extra skins and terrains and use a map creator to print maps out in no time. they already made all kinds of terrains and units in the beginning. it's just enemy placement and map design at this point
FEH Pass and what went wrong
in Fire Emblem Heroes
Posted · Edited by SwordsDude
Fair enough. The game does feel quite a bit different compared to past fire emblem games.
Did indeed miss the point that even the base game didn't lure you in.