Vhaltz

It appears I have quite a lot of photography stuff to do tomorrow so I won't be around until pretty late, so I pretty much have to do stuff now even though I'm tired as shit. Except if it's 3p LyLo and you've been townreading everybody alive you still have to turn on one of your reads inevitably? It happens whether you're town or you're scum in that situation so changing your read around in that scenario isn't going to appear questionable. This is disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and making the disagreement seem like a push against my logic. That doesn't change the fact that you didn't establish anything near telling up front and waited for my response to call me out on "misrepping" you when your one sentence case was oversimplified and ridiculous per se. Don't feel like responding to the rest of the push-oriented rethoric, pretty sure kirsche is town after mulling stuff over at the station and it doesn't seem like I can convince him otherwise by showing him that he's wrong so kirsche can enjoy being very blatantly wrong later. It did cross my mind earlier that scum wouldn't just casually throw out a vote on a commonly established townread with little to no explanation instead of some internally consistent wall on it, I just didn't take it into account because of the misrep trap, which was pretty egotistical of me to interpret as such in the first place but whatever. Imo the only players that could've killed Bossa N1 were Yolo and Eury, Eury because Gaius + Eury would be a replace in team that had to catch up on D1 shenanigans, so in absence of deep analysis on people's potential roles and setup stuff killing an obvtown slot like the dayvig would seem like the safe choice. Yolo!scum gained a lot from killing Bossa because he'd no longer have to cater to his own meta in his home boards, and it would allow him to coast through the game, much like the way he did in D2 and most of D3. Based on thread memory what bugs me the most is the complete uninvolvement with the game at times. His only real contentposts that I remember were the two where he called me scum in D1 and his latest D3 wall, with everything in between being passing commentary. His switch onto Snike was also the weirdest because he didn't imply finding anything right with the case on Snike, or anything wrong with the case on me, he just switched saying he'd want to see a lynch on me/snike and nobody else (for some reason?) and his only explanation for the switch is he was consolidating and thought the deadline was sooner. His D3 post, #513, makes it pretty obvious that he wasn't paying attention to D2 "and helping push through the gaius wagon yesterday when it looked like someone else (i forget who) almost was going to get lynched instead" which begs the question of why his conviction on lynching Gaius/Shinori was so seemingly huge if he hadn't even read the last couple of pages and just generally feels fake. The part of his D3 post that bugs me the most is his Mancer/Eury case. He runs down through probably every single post from the slot and found something scummy to say about every one of them, which feels extremely forced. His issues with Eury that I found agreeable were like, two, while the rest of two huge paragraphs essentially talk about how Eury says a couple of inconclusive things here and there which isn't really scummy? I disregarded it as Yolo not knowing Eury's playstyle earlier but it really is something very easy to poke at and it feels like Yolo's issues with Eury boil down to playing the game differently which is similar to how I felt with his D1 push. Overall I think he's just been extremely apathetic scum all game and masked it by sounding loud in what little he posted. ##Vote: Yolo Barring dumb setup design like scum ITP hunter protecting town for them creds or something like that this should end the game. I'd rather not get lynched before Yolo but I'm most likely going to be away for most of tomorrow so it's up to Eury/Shin, and if one of them ends up being scum and the graveyard is yelling at me for "bad setupspec" again then shrug man.

What I see here is that you put out absolutely minimal effort into explaining your reads and then call me out for "discrediting misrep" when I say that the logic is bullshit, which it was. The push on me was based entirely on Snike saying he'd make it a 1v1 which is inconclusive and doesn't point out scum intent as much as it points out a "possibility". The Yolo townread is literally stolen from my last post last phase, too. Which there are obvious issues with as well. Yolo still makes potential sense as scum because pressing somebody other than Excellen when the Excellen lynch was already set in stone doesn't actively contradict the scum agenda, and from the PoV of Yolo!scum he'd be in desperate need of a content post at that point considering that he went through most of D1 and D2 with only passing commentary and rarely direct involvement. Townreads don't mean anything once you reach 3p LyLo so setting up for one mislynch for the next phase wouldn't be exactly out there either. The sudden townread on Yolo is extremely weak, you don't bother analyzing his interactions with scum whether for good or for bad because then you'd be forced to subject them to the same kind of logic that you used when mentioning my interactions, calling the potentially questionable ones questionable, and dismissing the ones that make me blatantly town by saying "you've got these things going for you but they don't matter". If you did then you wouldn't be able to justify voting me over Yolo, because I was actively pushing both wagons whereas Yolo voted Snike for consolidation and sat on their Gaius vote D2 until Prims and I made the lynch happen. The switch on me itself is weak as well. "Sowing mistrust" and "Pushing hard" in relation to questioning Shinori if they made it alive to LyLo is purely rethoric because there's nothing for scum to gain from it in the context of Shinori in this game, there was no report to discredit and there was no push on Shinori to lynch him, so the scum intent to be gained form those tactics simply aren't there, and it boils down to empty buzzwording in hopes of making me look scummy. Regarding "pushing hard" I mentioned it once towards the end of the phase, and mentioning it was A Good Idea At The Time because Eury was clearly giving Shinori a huge pass for what seemed like attitude tells rather than alignment tells towards the end of D2, and considering that I'd likely die N3 in the Shinori!scum scenario it was worth reminding Eury to not make that mistake in LyLo. Withholding vote because OMGUS is a thing and I have to go get Mitsuki at the station. There's a chance that kirsche legitimately believes what hes saying somehow, mostly just because the N1 kill makes much more sense from yolo!scum than from kirsche!scum but eh. I was giving kirsche credit for the switch onto Gaius D2 but it turns out if he's scum he locked himself into it anyways by calling Gaius scummy and Shinori townie much earlier in the phase. I'll reread and make a decision tomorrow hopefully.

Actually if you were legitimately bugged by me in D2 onwards why would you refuse to bring up anything about it and happily agree to line up lynches like you did last phase? Expand on why you think I could be scum from that one line.

I'm pretty sure Paperblade's "wtf is Snike doing" post makes it pretty obvious that Snike was just screwing himself over hard with that comment, rather than establishing some wicked gambit. Checking timestamps Snike and Paper posted those when I was long gone (past 4am) so unless you believe I made up some risky gambit AND came up with tons of coverage for it then ??? You should probably just address my content in general because I get the impression that you just threw out a hail mary gut vote and haven't really bothered to reread. Wrt Eury there are no LyLo announcement rules as far as I could tell. I'm more inclined to believe her claim than not but I want to see if that next post comes eventually and what's in it.

I thought so too but then the profile gender switched halfway through the game so ???

Having two flipped townies not give a damn and fail to show up in 3 whole days of D3 day phase hasn't exactly helped my motivation to post atm, specially considering that Excellen decided to show up only to insult people for lynching her, instead of actually doing something to stop the lynch from happening. Replacing out is always an option if you foresee being too busy to deal with mafia. Eury's post is interesting but I want to see where she goes with her next posts before I go in-depth about it. Pretty much just interested in seeing posts from all non-kirsche players, and even kirsche should stop going on autopilot and post some thoughts now that his main lynch target is gone.

Hmmmm, okay the Eury case there is better than I expected, there's potential scum intent her last post this D3 and fluff in her earlier posts. I'm not really willing to lynch Eury today though, sorry. Her position on the Gaius wagon makes her way more likely town, she didn't seem to acknowledge that I drove the Gaius wagon and made it happen at the last minute (which I found kind of weird) but paranoia wrt me is also somewhat understandable coming from her since I bussed the crap out of her in Healer mafia D1 for seemingly no good reason. So there's a reasonable explanation for those stances to come from town. As it stands I feel like Excellen has more damning interactions with the scumteam to the point where it's very unlikely that they're town, and they aren't really bothering to come back into the game and explain their Eury vote (+36h ago) or even claim (+18h ago) so yeah. I'm fine with the last vote being set for hammer and ending the phase. Shinori should definitely cop Eury over Yolo if the Excellen lynch doesn't end the game, idk what their beef with Yolo is considering that both Prims and I were willing to see him lynched by D2 phase end if he didn't do shit, but Yolo's recent content is good and I don't see any reason why scum!yolo would want to drive a counterwagon to excellen with so much effort and so many WORDS if they were the last scum alive.

Cool mafia game ##Vote: Excellen

tl;dr with less disjointed thoughts Shinori is more likely to be town on role stuff but don't clear him just in case. Flipped scum's interactions with Yolo are extremely uninteresting On top of not voting Snike twice when having the opportunity to do so and being defended by Gaius, Excellen defended Paper pretty hard for no reason, and turned the dislike of the Paper case into an FOS on Via with pretty much no other reasons behind it which is the definition of chainsaw defense. Excellen should claim.

Hmmmm. I do feel like Shinori could be scum based on post content though, there's nothing he's done or said that he couldn't do as either alignment (specially the rage). If there's another info role out there who's questioning whether or not they could coexist as town in the same setup as Shinori's cop claim they should probably just investigate Shinori tonight. He's more likely to be town based on role shenanigans like the cop claim and the Prims rb. Prims claimed the persuader rb as "he has to follow my vote today or something bad happens" and the only scenario where he wouldn't get rb'd for voting a different target at deadline would be if he was forced to vote Prims' vote target in his next post? but then he'd be rb'd anyway for not voting himself at the beginning of the phase. I'm not willing to lynch him today, just don't auto-clear and be wary if Shinori somehow makes it alive to LyLo, shrug. There's not much to be said wrt Snike -> Excellen and Paper -> Excellen interactions, they pretty much just both agreed that Excellen seemed town for the same inane reasons. Paper doesn't even mention Rose but Gaius defends them as overwhelmed town, as well as defends Excellen for stuff. It's hard to tell if they're both white-knights on town or if there's vested interest in one of them. Rereading more I just noticed that Excellen defended Paperblade pretty heavily from the single vote from Via though, and also from kirsche's very brief suspicion of "paper should've been around". Excellen's defense of Paper also turns into chainsaw defense in their FOS on Via in #281 so at this point it's quite a lot of stuff to just dismiss as circumstantial evidence. If Excellen is somehow town then they're both incredibly unlucky with their interactions with scum this game and very timely in their inactivity periods. (btw shoutout to Via for being right about scum, just noticed) Snike -> Yolo interactions are almost nonexistent. Paper -> Yolo interactions boil down to "man I don't want to read Yolo his posts give me eye cancer" which doesn't feel much like a scum interaction. This also doesn't feel like a response to a bus? Might be confirmation bias though, would still consider Yolo over kirsche/eury/shin if Excellen isn't scum. Tired of rereading now, Excellen should claim.

Yolo also has good interactions with flipped scum but his engagement with the game is noticeably less active than Shin's/Eury's, which is why if there's somebody bussing it's probably them. Still most likely Excellen and I'm probably worrying over nothing and dragging out the game unnecessarily.

I'm assuming Shinori is town atm since they crumbed D2 and nobody CC'd or claimed to have a similar role. Scum had both a redirector and a commuter which would be a bit overkill for just Prims' role so a cop makes sense. Prims also backed up Shinori when he claimed how the persuader-or-get-blocked role worked so I'm also assuming that Shinori getting rb'd is legit. I've yet to stop being lazy and reread, but scum is most likely within Excellen/Yolo because Shin and Eury have good interactions with flipped scum (Shin helped my Snike vote become a wagon, was opportunistically voted by Gaius late D2, Eury was voted by Gaius ED2 and voted Gaius at a critical 3/3/2 juncture between Shin, Gaius and Excellen). Excellen is probably it but I want to check stuff before going turbowagons ahoy.

There's 2 mislynches then LyLo, totes scumslip dude I agree with Excellen but why Shin over Yolo? Shin was the wagon that fell down from the sky out of nowhere and Gaius jumped on no questions asked. I'll reread eventually too lazy to do it now. Also want to see Excellen and Shin posting actual things before I say much anyways.

Gaius Mancer Snike

That's the lynch threshold at deadline, you need more for hammer (check the votecount I quoted).

That isn't hammer yet though If Gaius is around they should claim, although they probably should've done it last time they checked the thread a while ago, now there isn't much time left.

Decided to do actual votals since I missed Excellen being at 2 with kirsche/Eury before

There's like, 4 hours left I think. Wagons are 3/3 for Shin and Gaius so people should hurry up and consolidate before we end up with no lynch.

Shrug man, I think it's just extremely obvious that Shin is way more likely to flip town than Gaius is. Paper's D1 was pretty underwhelming and Gaius didn't do anything D1. Then Gaius' D2 stances are weird and feel unnatural, he abuses buzzwords in several instances when it comes to calling people scummy "most of his posts relieved on WIFOM/Meta reads instead of relying on scumhunting which should be a town player's greatest pursuit" (wrt Mancer) "Already said I didn't like the waffling on the Snike wagon" (switch onto Shin) and the whole switch onto Shin feels opportunistic considering how easily he townread Eury (for no given reason) and gave up on Yolo. And looking back his Shin case doesn't even make sense? How do you even get that from this? That's the only Shin post that mentions the 1v1 and it's very obviously not what Gaius was talking about.

Like, posting this from scum!Shin's POV would be weird because people have already been taking this into account since lateD1 so he'd know it's not something that's going to save him in a turbowagon situation. It reads like town!Shin going "dude, my role makes no sense as scum, wtf?". Similar stuff with the wagon deconstruction because scum!Shin wouldn't find the votes on him so unwarranted and handwaveable considering that people were giving him scummy mentions earlier in the day. Assume I'm not going to vote Shin at deadline I guess.

I still feel like his wagon position and his role speak in his favor though? and I mean I've also not been giving much of a shit about the game while voting Shinori and waiting for him to do stuff so I can get why he hasn't been super active this day phase. I'm mostly just annoyed that I can easily see him flipping town and then I'd be exactly in the same spot as earlier in D2 in terms of finding out who scum is within Gaius/Shinori/Excellen. Is Shin's passive posting this game very different from how he posted in Shovel Knight?

I should probably read better before I post because Gaius did post some snippets on Yolo, it doesn't really help that they're incredibly unmemorable though.

Prims' case is fine but I don't like the sudden sheep by everybody under fire. The only part of the case I really liked is how Snike doesn't directly address Shin, but iirc Shin didn't really bring up any significant points on Snike beyond what I said in #137? He just disliked the fact that Snike did a huge switch on me, and Snike already addresses that issue by retroactively justifying himself. The sudden switch also happened the exact same way for kirsche so I'm skeptical of everybody bringing that up as a point against him. This might be a kneejerk reaction but I feel like Shin's getting wagoned as town like he usually does. Gaius' new posts don't really change my mind on him. His #410 misreps my issues with his Yolo and Shin cases by saying I'm scumreading him for townreading Excellen and scumreading Yolo/Shin because unpopular opinions. I stated that I think the Yolo/Shin scumreads cater to paranoia rather than being paranoia, specifically catering to Prims' early D2 posts where he specifically mentioned being iffy on Shin and Yolo among the people in the wagon. The reason the Excellen read is weird is that there are multiple steps needed in order to justify not only clearing them of any wrongdoing, but also townread them for it. Simultaneously there are also several steps taken to pursue targets that are more likely town by virtue of being on the wagon so it all reads like decision-first-justification-later. His switch onto Shin is also the most potentially dishonest out of the three because Shin never waffled on the Snike wagon. I would've expected somebody scumreading Yolo as town to pressure him significantly more outside of just posting the early case too, since Yolo is clearly not giving much of a damn about the game and that'd feel grimy as shit if I were actually scumreading them. ##Unvote ##Vote Gaius Don't know what to make of Shinori and I doubt there's going to be a consolidation wagon on him over "he isn't doing anything" because it's Shinori. I'd say I'd be fine with an Excellen lynch but it'd just be 'cause I'll find myself second guessing myself about their Snike interactions for the rest of the game otherwise. So I guess it's Gaius or go home.

Or you could have just read Eury's post? It clearly stated the three main happenings in D1 (Rapier getting shot, Via getting removed, Snike getting lynched) and analyzed the players involved, so you could've easily just read that, gotten a somewhat biased but decent understanding of what happened and worked from there.

Forgot to directly address Eury but you should probably be able to tell what I think of the slot given the above comparison with Gaius, my earlier Mancer townread and Eury not being in the lynch priority list to begin with.