Games similar to FE

[Alef Zero]

FE clones, if you will (not pejoratively in the slightest), are they as rare as I think they are? Fire Emblem may not be a mainstream franchise, but one would think that with this many games, there would be at least a decent clone every now and then.

By a clone, I mean turn based combat on a grid with many characters available, with focus on tactics specifically. I think it's easy to intuitively know the elements, especially for members of such a forum.

Maybe I'm just unaware, but the only titles I can think of are:

-Tears to tiara 2 - probably the closest game, even story follows a familiar pattern. It's a also a ps3 exclusive, that nobody cared about then, and that's completely forgotten now
-Hyperdevotion noire - gameplay is very close, but narrative is closer to a traditional jrpg, it's also a low-budget spin-off to an already niche series.
-Fairy fencer F refrain chord - a spin off of a niche jrpg from the same developer as above. If I didn't actively search for it, I wouldn't know it exists
-Natural Doctrine - this one is a stretch, as the gameplay differs quite a bit, but I still recognize many similarities, especially during the last 3 missions, where characters can die, and consequences are very similar to fe.

I'm aware original creator of fe went to make his own games, can they be considered fe clones as well?
Anyway, am I missing something? And if not, why is this a case?

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Dude I´m sorry but just... google?

Of the top of my head Advance Wars, FF Tactis, Dark Deity, Banner of the Maid, Vestaria Saga, Berwick Saga...

Tactical role-playing game - Wikipedia

Edited April 24 by Imuabicus der Fertige

[ARMADS!!!]

Yeah, the creator went on to do his own series and it's very similar to FE, the games are Tear Ring Saga, Berwick Saga and Vestaria Saga. 

 Also, I've been hearing about Unicorn Overload a lot here on the forums, as far as I could tell it's one of these too.

 And, apart from the examples that Imuabicus der Fertige gave, well, I'm not sure if you're looking for lookalike games just because you're curious or cause you wanna play them, but if it is for playing then there's a LOAD of FE fan games that naturally are on the tone of the series, a bunch are pretty popular among the fandom, even.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

2 hours ago, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

Dude I´m sorry but just... google?

Of the top of my head Advance Wars, FF Tactis, Dark Deity, Banner of the Maid, Vestaria Saga, Berwick Saga...

Tactical role-playing game - Wikipedia

I'm sure they meant more specifically tactics games with similar gameplay to Fire Emblem, not just the genre. Advance Wars for instance has no RPG elements. Your units are not characters and are expected to be spent like the resources they are. None of your unspent resources carry over into the next map. There's not even a "Hero Character" that causes a game over when he dies. It's more like a stripped down RTS that's turn based, and it even has that competitive multiplayer focus that Fire Emblem lacks.

I would say FF Tactics clones are more prevalent than Fire Emblem ones. A Fire Emblem game has most if not all of:

• Permadeath, and a Lord character that causes a Game Over state on death.
• Parsable numbers (being able to calculate, down to the last digit, how much damage you're dealing and receiving in an interaction). You can plan on math, not just vibes
  • low focus on Buffs/Debuffs/Status Ailments that change the numbers. And few AoE moves.
• Units are fully realized characters, rather than being a faceless recruit you're allowed to rename and class change.
• Limited resources and limited potential for grinding
  • and not expecting that the player Will Grind in between chapters.

While a FF Tactics clone is a conventional party-based rpg on a grid. Anyway, I've heard that Tear Ring Saga for the PS1 is an unabashed FE Clone, but I can't personally confirm that. Kaga's later games are definitely not copy pasting FE gameplay but many FE fans take to them anyway for how they recontextualize his work. If you want more Fire Emblem my best advice is to look into all the ROM hacks of GBA FE. Really impressive stuff there. As for the most Fire Emblem indie game not made by Kaga that I've played, I may give it to last year's Esperia: Uprising of the Scarlet Witch. One neat way that it plays with Permadeath is having unique memoriam scenes for every character's death. I'll also agree with Dark Deity and Banner of the Maid. Though neither of these games feature Permadeath, Banner of the Maid's Weapon Triangle (actually it's a Weapon Square) and Dark Deity's GBA FE inspired aesthetic definitely wear the inspiration on their sleeve. 

Edited April 24 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Revier]

Well, the basics of Fire Emblem - RPG systems, tile based movement, and party centric tactics - have been copied ad nauseam. What hasn't been copied as much are the controversial bits.

a. Permadeath. This was supposed to shock players and sell them on the idea that war is costly, but in practice most people don't like having significant investments going down the drain, so few games, especially ones made today, adopt it.

b. Romance/Support systems. While a decent portion of the Fire Emblem fanbase likes them, many outside it think that they are a bit cringeworthy, as they basically validate slash fiction. Also, it is rather absurd to have people fall in love on a battlefield, so having these systems at all can make a game look more ridiculous.

c. The emphasis on royalty and nobles. This isn't a mechanic per se, but often games feature protagonists who aren't currently nobility or royalty, as it's more satisfying to rise to power than to be born with it. Further, in our real world the nobility and aristocracy are not often viewed in the best light, being seen as corrupt oppressors who benefited off the labors of their subjects without doing much work of their own.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

12 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I'm sure they meant more specifically tactics games with similar gameplay to Fire Emblem, not just the genre.

14 hours ago, Alef Zero said:

By a clone, I mean turn based combat on a grid with many characters available, with focus on tactics specifically.

Characters and grids were their criteria, that´s why I included what I included.

 

Right, Wargroove, that´s the game whose name I forgor yesterday!

[ARMADS!!!]

Yeah, if you made the thread cause you're looking for recommendations, you're better off trying Tear Ring Saga (I guess Berwick Saga and Vestaria Saga too but I don't know enough about these to say anything) and ROM Hacks. These have the tiles/grids, chatacters with personality, permadeath, hability to calculate exactly how much damage you're taking or inflicting, no grinding, class changes like in FE, etc.

 

 If you opt for Tear Ring Saga, beware of certain things like that it doesn't have weapon triangle, look up the calculations here on SF (like how AS, crit chance, etc, works), beware that your weapons might become cursed after reaching 100 kills, maybe you'll wanna look for a guide for the route split to get as many special scenes and items as possible, etc, etc. But the difference in mechanics (like route split, calcualtions, no weapon triangle,...) Is really on par on how the mechanics are different between the games of the FE series anyway so nothing to worry about.

[lenticular]

On 4/25/2024 at 1:37 AM, Revier said:

b. Romance/Support systems. While a decent portion of the Fire Emblem fanbase likes them, many outside it think that they are a bit cringeworthy, as they basically validate slash fiction. Also, it is rather absurd to have people fall in love on a battlefield, so having these systems at all can make a game look more ridiculous.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by the bolded part here? Because, honestly, this just seems like such a completely nonsensical statement to me that I figure we must be coming from a radically different understanding of things, and I'm really curious to know what you mean here.

On the main topic: yeah, it all depends on exactly how similar to FE we're talking about. If you're willing to accept anything that's even vaguely similar if you squint enough, then there are a ton. If you're only looking for games that are basically Fire Emblem with the serial numbers filed off, then there aren't many. A more fruitful question might be to ask about games that share more specific qualities with Fire Emblem. So, "TRPGs with clearly divided player phase and enemy phase" or "TRPGs with simple enough combat mechanics that you can do all the arithmetic in your head" or so on.

[Revier]

By letting the player build friendships and romances between their characters, the games let them write "their" fanfiction and watch it play out, in a sense. Of course, the exact lines, outcomes and events are still predetermined, but there's certainly an element of player creation/choice in the whole system, which some people frown at. I personally don't have too much trouble with the idea behind it, I just wish they were implemented more organically.

Edited April 26 by Revier

[Alef Zero]

On 4/25/2024 at 10:25 AM, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

Characters and grids were their criteria, that´s why I included what I included.

 

Right, Wargroove, that´s the game whose name I forgor yesterday!

Right, I should have been more specific.

I wanted to know why are there so few actual clones (or if there are, and I just didn't know). Unicorn Overlord is not such a game, because combat is different, map design is different, units move in real time etc.

Persona 5 Tactica is not a clone, despite it having rpg elements, named characters and a grid, because it also focuses on small maps and deploys only 3 characters.

FF Tactics also does not cut it, different camera perspective, emphasis on verticality etc (although this one is close).

Quote

Of the top of my head Advance Wars, FF Tactis, Dark Deity, Banner of the Maid, Vestaria Saga, Berwick Saga...

Aside from the last 2 and tactics, I've never heard of these games before. Also, they look like games made in rpg maker, my query is bigger games (this may be wrong in current age, but I consider a game big, if it got a physical release).

Quote

Yeah, if you made the thread cause you're looking for recommendations,

Yes, and no. My idea was to ask, since this question has been with me for some time now.

Edited April 26 by Alef Zero

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I think the reason why we don't get Fire Emblem clones, specifically, is just that the strategy part of a Strategy RPG is the least marketable aspect. Really most of the SRPGs out there are stock standard menu based RPGs recontextualized to exist on a grid. Where the answer to a hard map is most readily answered with "have you got ____? you should grind until you get _____". I'm not a big fan of this genre, but Fire Emblem has kept me coming back for decades.

[Revier]

I would say strategy games in general are extremely niche. Barring some standouts like the Civilization franchise and Paradox games, there's not really a big market for them. I definitely agree that it's hard to market their strategic side, even the aforementioned Civilization and Paradox games market themselves as major empire builders or absurd alternate timeline simulators respectively.

And yeah, I think most strategy RPGs tend to ultimately play like "regular" RPGs with a bloated cast and more dead space. While they do have more going for them than your average RPG with menus, the strategic aspect often tends to be underbaked. I suspect this is in large part due to these games tending to still have very weak AI that falls into the most common traps imaginable, and acts with little sophistication, often just choosing to pepper your party with as much damage as they can. Thus, what should be an engrossing battle of wits instead ends up being a search for exploits. I still like some of them, but mostly for their storytelling and flexibility of building characters more than anything.

Edited April 27 by Revier

[Magenta Fantasies]

I’m currently developing a SRPG called Outcasts of the Rift that is inspired by Fire Emblem in many ways, since it started as an idea for a fan game. Eventually I had so many ideas that didn’t mesh well with Fire Emblem (e.g. the way skills work and the way you can explore locations draw heavily from Pokemon) that I figured it would be best to simply create my own game. 

Here’s the website. If you scroll down a little, there is a link to the Steam page where I have a public beta/free demo to download. While I’m working on updating the Steam page’s graphics and videos, the demo is only a couple months old.

It has pretty much all of the things TC mentioned. I have a game mechanic similar to supports, and while I have written over a dozen conversations between characters so far, it hasn’t been programmed into the game yet.

[Samz707]

8 hours ago, Revier said:

I would say strategy games in general are extremely niche. Barring some standouts like the Civilization franchise and Paradox games, there's not really a big market for them. I definitely agree that it's hard to market their strategic side, even the aforementioned Civilization and Paradox games market themselves as major empire builders or absurd alternate timeline simulators respectively.

And yeah, I think most strategy RPGs tend to ultimately play like "regular" RPGs with a bloated cast and more dead space. While they do have more going for them than your average RPG with menus, the strategic aspect often tends to be underbaked. I suspect this is in large part due to these games tending to still have very weak AI that falls into the most common traps imaginable, and acts with little sophistication, often just choosing to pepper your party with as much damage as they can. Thus, what should be an engrossing battle of wits instead ends up being a search for exploits. I still like some of them, but mostly for their storytelling and flexibility of building characters more than anything.

I won't name names to avoid a war but I do feel even some Fire Emblem games fall into that "More like  "regular" RPGs" trap, where it feels more like stats than strategy.

Even some SRPGs I like such as Fallout Tactics or Silent Storm do suffer from not encouraging "non-standard" tactics as much. (Just look at alot of SRPGs set in the modern day like Jagged Alliance where equipment such as mines would in theory add strategy but in reality there's little-to-no use in actually using them, Fire Emblem Blazing Blade having most enemies be melee actually made them more useful than most SRPGs.) 

[lenticular]

Games that are just straight-up clones of other games are pretty rare when it comes to major publishers and full-priced games. Presumably because if you're copying another game so closely, you have built-in competition right from the beginning, and that competition is much more established than you are. If someone else put out a game that was Fire Emblem in everything but name, then who's the market for it? People who didn't want to play Fire Emblem probably arne't going to want to play your new game either, and for the people who were playing Fire Emblem, a lot of them will be thinking "yeah, but I already play Fire Emblem so why do I need this too?" And sure, there'll be some die-hard fans who will just be hungryfor any new content they can get, but for a clone to do better than the game it's copying, it would pretty much have to be phenomenally good. And this is fine if you're a small indie studio and have relatively much lower standards for success. And this is fine if the game that you're copying is CoD or WoW or something else that is just printing money. But otherwise? Probably not.

I mean, thinking about it, there are a lot of very popular games that have few or no direct clones. How many games can you think of that you'd describe as Animal Crossing clones, or Legend of Zelda clones, for instance. I can think of a few, but not many, and most of the ones that do come to mind for me are smaller indie titles. That isn't to say that there aren't other life sims or other action adventure games, of course, same as there are absolutely a lot of other TRPGs. But direct clones are pretty rare. Games like Triangle Strategy or Unicorn Overlord do things that Fire Emblem don't do, which means they can potentially attract people who don't want to play FE, for whatever reason.

On 4/26/2024 at 5:00 AM, Revier said:

By letting the player build friendships and romances between their characters, the games let them write "their" fanfiction and watch it play out, in a sense. Of course, the exact lines, outcomes and events are still predetermined, but there's certainly an element of player creation/choice in the whole system, which some people frown at. I personally don't have too much trouble with the idea behind it, I just wish they were implemented more organically.

OK, so a few comments here.

First, I'm still confused by why you brought up slash fiction. If I'm wrong here, then please correct me, but are you using "slash fiction" as synonymous with "fan fiction"? Because that's not what the term generally means. The exact definition is somewhat difficult to pin down, as you'd expect for a neologism that's only been around for about half a century, but slash fiction almost universally refers to fanfiction with same-sex romantic or sexual pairings (sources: Wikipedia, Urban Dictionary, Fanlore) so if you're using it more generically then you're likely to generate a lot of confusion. and if you aren't using it generically, then I'm very confused, because Fire Emblem has only a handful of queer characters across its 30+ year history.

Beyond that, I still don't think that I agree with your overall point. While support conversations are a pretty well established part of Fire Emblem's identity these days, I don't think that explicitly romantic support conversations really are. Unless I'm forgetting something, they've only been particularly prominent in Awakening and Fates, and are much less important in other games. (I have not played it, but my understanding is that Genealogy also has prominent romance, but not through a supports system.) So while I would agree that there are some people who don't care for Fire Emblem's support conversations, I don't think that it's the romance elements that are turning them away.

And finally, I think that the association of character-based storytelling with fanfiction is a strange one. I don't doubt that it's an association that some people have, because if the Internet has taught me anything, it's that no idea is too weird for someone somewhere to genuinely hold it. But I still think this is a weird one. Plenty of stories across all media put much more focus on characters and their relationships than Fire Emblem ever has. The two main complaints that I see from people who don't care for FE's support systems are that they think they're poorly written (subjective, but fair enough) or that they personally want games with more emphasis on tactical combat and less on storytelling (again, entirely fair to have that preference). The fanfic connection is just bizarre to me.

So, in short: I am still pretty confused by your comment, but I am trying to understand.

[Capt. Fargus]

16 hours ago, Revier said:

I suspect this is in large part due to these games tending to still have very weak AI that falls into the most common traps imaginable, and acts with little sophistication, often just choosing to pepper your party with as much damage as they can. Thus, what should be an engrossing battle of wits instead ends up being a search for exploits. I still like some of them, but mostly for their storytelling and flexibility of building characters more than anything.

This is where I go different from your average hardcore Heroes of Might and Magic fan with some of the tricks they use

I’ll use a town’s entire force where they mix em up. They do stuff like have a big stack of critters on a battlefield and split off 5 or 6 singles and put em in their own positions. Just my opinion but I dont think the game’s meant to be played that way. Seems too much like you said... searching for exploits