Alef Zero Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 (edited) Hello. I'm currently working on a rebalancing patch for the game, thanks to discovery of a easy to use triabolical editor and are looking for feedback. My main goals were: making all classes viable (which generally mean buffing many weak classes as I dislike nerfing. There is an exception to it and you know which. As all buffs apply to enemies as well, this is not a problem) making class system more flexible and modular. I wish for more elastic class paths, like great knight being a possible final class for both paladin and great knight, while also making advanced classes worth using adding a little more lore accuracy to some elements (mostly by strengthening hero relics, their exclusive arts and crests) reducing tedious and grinding Changes to far: Unit talents: Ingrid gets a hidden talent in authority (which fits her and her personal) but weakness in axes (could be something else, not feeling strong on this) Ferdinand von Aegir gets a boon in authority (fits him perfectly) but weakness in brawling (a true noble would not punch things) Dimitri's bane in axes changed to neutral (this never made sense, as axes handle more similar to lances than any other weapon, this bane was, in my opinion, purely gameplay-wise), riding to normal boon, added hidden talent in brawling - mastery: seal movement (really fits his hidden beast tendencies), bane in flying (I really don't see him being a flier) Catherine gets a boon in armor (no reason really, just wanted her to have it) Shamir's boon in lances changed to swords Bernadetta's boon in lances changed to swords Claude gets a bane in axes (this guy is not smashing things, lets be serious) and hidden talent in lances (monster piercer) F!Byleth's boon in brawling switched to bows Unit skills: -changed byleth's white magic learnt - Aura learnt on faith B. On faith A M!Byleth gets abraxas, F!Byleth gets seraphim -removed swift strkes from relevant units (changed to different skills: Sylvain - frozen lance, Seteth - shatter lance, Ferdinand von Aegir - lance jab) -changed Ingrid's magic attack arts rank from A to C+ -changed flayn's frozen lance from A to C+ -Felix learns bolting on reason A+ Weapon Arts and magic: increased accuracy and crit rate of astra to +20, reduced cost to 5 repurposed subdue into sol (hero exclusive master art) swift strikes repurposed into paladin exclusive master art war master strike moved onto warrior fimbuveltr now applies frozen meteor has power of 20 thunder magic is switched to high accuracy no crit. thunder range increased to 3 ragnarok is effective (double) against armors cutting gale is effective (double) against fliers nosferatu weight reduced to 4 abraxas is now range 2-4 power 18, cannot double aura's crit reduced to 0, hit increased to 100 agnea's arrow is now effective against everything defiant skills activate below 50% HP, stat boosts increased from 8 to 9, defiant avo reduced from 30 to 25, crit reduced from 50 to 25 Lore Accuracy changes: -doubled activation rate of all crest effects (save for those that cancel counter attacks, those increased by 50%) -buffed all hero relics and sacred weapons -vastly upgraded all hero relics' exclusive weapon arts [Reliance on crest is a vital point of many characters' backstories, it's detrimental to have them so weak in the game] Class data Vast changes to majority of classes: Stats: HP STR MAG DEX SPD LCK DEF RES MOV CHR Hero: Stats:+3 +2 0 0 +! +2 +4 0 +1 0 Skills: swordfaire, defensive tactics, weight -3 Mastery: defiant str, sol Req: swords B+, authority C Mortal Savant: Stats: +1 +3 +3 +1 +4 0 +2 +2 +2 0 Skills: swordfaire, black tomefaire, darting blow Mastery: keen intuition Req: sword A, reason A Great Knight: Stats: +5 +3 0 +2 -4 0 +10 0 +3 +1 Skills: canto, lancefaire, axefaire, Mastery: defiant def Req: axe C+ lance C+ armor B riding B Dark Knight: Stats +3 +2 +3 +2 0 0 +3 0 +4 -1 Skills: canto, lancefaire, black tomefaire Mastery: seal res Req: lance B reason B riding A Holy Knight: Stats: +3 +3 +2 +2 +1 0 +3 +4 +4 +1 Skills: canto, swordfaire, white tomefaire Mastery: defiant res Req: sword B faith B riding A Dark Mage (it, alongside dark bishop require normal seals. I guess you can sell your dark seals): Stats: +3 0 +3 +1 0 0 0 +2 0 -1 Skills: miasma, heartseeker Mastery: vicious blow (crit+20 on initiation) Req: reason C Dark Bishop (now a master class): Stats: +5 0 +5 +3 0 0 0 +4 +1 -1 Skills: lifetaker, fiendish blow, heartseeker Mastery: arcane mastery (mag/res +4) Req: reason S Wyvern lord - removed bonus and growths of speed, lowered mov to 7 changed avo+10 to lancefaire, changed req. to axe B, lance B, flying A Enlightened one - added white tomefaire Dancer skills: dance, charm, swordfaire Bow knight skill bonus and req changed from lance to sword great lord - added swordfaire, +2 dex +1 def emperor - can use magic All lord master classes now learn offensive tactics on mastery falcon knight - changed req sword C to faith C, can now use magic, lowered mov to 7 priest - mastery changed from miracle to warding blow Skill progression: reason C - fire faith C - miracle armor B - staunch shield (def +4 on wait) authority S+ - general/commander (not decided yet) faire skills earned from S+ rank no longer stack On tedium and grinding: class mastery exp required is halved (save for commoner but not noble) all faculty members join with all their acquired classes already mastered On difficulty: I don't like maddening. I've played and beaten it on ng+ but find bloated enemy stats not fun at all. What I do like, however, are bonus skills. As such I've made changes to generic enemies on hard mode: all prowess skills upgraded (ex. generic brigand enemy used to have axe prowess lv 2, now it's level 3) all enemies have their classes' mastery skills equiped (that includes higher tier classes - death blow will be equipped on both brigand and warrior) many enemies also get breaker skills On modularity: Advance classes that focus on a single weapon get unique special attack: swordmaster - astra grappler - fierce iron first sniper - hunter's volley hero - sol paladin - swift strikes warrior - war strike Meanwhile, master classes are all hybrid classes with dual faire skills and higher stats, but also higher requrements. This is meant to give a choice - a low-effort class with a unique skills after mastery, or a premium class with higher requirements. There are more synergies between classes now - sword and bow can orbitate around assasin, hero, sniper, bow knight. Great knight could be a master class for both paladin and fortress knight. Lance users can go for paladin and stay for swift strikes, or move towards dark knight or great knight. I also wanted to make sure all faire skills get at least two end-game classes excluding lords Undecided yet: Cannot decide if dark knight should get lance or swordfaire (holy knight gets the other). Holy knight looks like it should be a straight upgrade to paladin, so lancefaire, but most units who want to be a dark knight (Sylvain, Lorenz, Hubert) prefer lances. Dark knights in the past used to prefer swords and it would synergize with mortal savant more. Holy knight using lances would synergize with falcon knight for women and I feel it would fit more. On the other hand, my holy knight Ingrid with a silver sword looks majestic. A tough one. I'm not sure what to do with hero. It's fine right now, but I've been thinking about changing it to master class with axefaire. I'm thinking about using one of the spare class slots to divide mortal savant into two gender-exclusive classes. It's because those two models don't look like the same class - male one is definitely a samurai while female looks more like an onmyo mage. Male variant looks especially silly doing anime casting animations while wearing full armor. A random thought - do you think game would gain if all faire skills were removed from classes and replaced with other skills? There is no limit on how many requirements and proficiency bonuses classes can give (even though in the base game these are capped at 3 and 4 respectively). What do you think? Your feedback is appreciated. Edited May 3 by Alef Zero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted May 4 Share Posted May 4 I wanna start by saying that, on principle, I'm a fan of rebalance theorycrafting. I like the conceppt of this thread, and think it was cool that you made it. Now, what are my thoughts on these particular proposals? Well... 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: paladin - swift strikes Please no. Paladin is already a very solid class. It's the first accessible class with 8 move, and actually has the highest physical damage output with Lances of any class. Just let it keep those two traits. It doesn't need Swift Strikes, which IMO should remain character-specific. 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: warrior - war strike This one is really good. War Master would still have its advantages, but finally, there's a reason to remain in Warrior. Also, finally something vaguely good for female Axe infantry. 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: fimbuveltr now applies frozen I don't believe the "freeze" condition exists in this game. Maybe it could have a movement-reducing debuff, like Banshee, instead? 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: -doubled activation rate of all crest effects (save for those that cancel counter attacks, those increased by 50%) -buffed all hero relics and sacred weapons -vastly upgraded all hero relics' exclusive weapon arts This one doesn't seem great for balance. Felix hardly needs a further-boosted chance to increase his physical damage, for instance. And the sucky commoners, like Ashe and Raphael, are gonna get left in the dust. Hm... what if instead, most Crests also have a negative effect, like Blaiddyd? Maybe Annette's Crest of Dominic saves a spell use, but also decreases damage by 5. Or Claude's Crest of Riegan restores HP, but costs an extra weapon use. In that light, I'd be fine with boosting activation rates. So the Crests feel like more of a presence, although not strictly a positive or negative one. 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Shamir's boon in lances changed to swords Bernadetta's boon in lances changed to swords God, just let women use Lances. Bernadetta, in particular, is one of a mere two units in the game to have a Sword bane. Please don't take away one of the things making her unique. Bernie is already pretty good! 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: faire skills earned from S+ rank no longer stack What's the point of this? It just removes the reward to the player of heading for S+ in their weapon of choice. After "Weapon Crit +10" at S'rank, there's no motive to go any further. 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: increased accuracy and crit rate of astra to +20, reduced cost to 5 IMO keep Astra vanilla, except remove the "*0.30" damage modifier. Let each hit do normal damage. Broken? Maybe. But it costs a lot of uses, and it's on an otherwise-bad class. 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Bow knight skill bonus and req changed from lance to sword Then it's not a viable path for Paladins. This isn't a rebalance, it's a flavor change. 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: great lord - added swordfaire, +2 dex +1 def IMO Lance Crit +10 would be way better. It would synthesize with his Battalion Wrath/Vantage setup, and his innate Lance specialty. If Dimitri wants Swordfaire, he has plenty of other options. 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: emperor - can use magic Yes, please! Admittedly, this one is mostly flavor - it wouldn't make Emperor worth using - but it would be pretty fun. 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Dancer skills: dance, charm, swordfaire It doesn't need Swordfaire. Dancer is already a really good class, and its combat doesn't matter. The Charm skill would be a cool benefit, if not strictly necessary. If you really want to improve Dancer... maybe Stealth? Just become less likely to get hit. 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Req: axe C+ lance C+ armor B riding B Dark Knight: Stats +3 +2 +3 +2 0 0 +3 0 +4 -1 Skills: canto, lancefaire, black tomefaire Mastery: seal res Req: lance B reason B riding A ...So it's not a viable option for Hubert or Hapi anymore. Lovely... My take between the two? Give Holy Knight a slight edge in Magic. That way, it's doing more damage with White Magic and combat arts, while being slightly more effective at support spells. Meanwhile, Dark Knight will retain a damage advantage with Reason, thanks to its Faires. 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Mortal Savant: Stats: +1 +3 +3 +1 +4 0 +2 +2 +2 0 Skills: swordfaire, black tomefaire, darting blow Mastery: keen intuition Req: sword A, reason A Okay, Mortal Savant getting Keen Intuition - and solid stat modifiers - is actually very cool. The kind of boost this class needs. 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: On tedium and grinding: class mastery exp required is halved (save for commoner but not noble) all faculty members join with all their acquired classes already mastered I dunno, I think the rates are... fine. Especially when you get the statues and Knowledge Gem online. Maybe reduce the requirements a smidge: say, from 20/60/100/150/200 (vanilla), to 20/50/80/120/150 (proposed). As for faculty members, I agree that having them start at 0 class mastery sucks. But giving them all out the gate might be OP. What if they started halfway? So, like, Gilbert would join with 10 in Noble, 25 in Fighter, and 40 in Armor Knight. You still need to "earn your masteries", it's just lower-effort. Speaking of Gilbert... he sucks. Especially in chapter 13, where you can't control his loadout whatsoever. If nothing else, give the man a good inventory: Silver Lance, Tomohawk, and Silver Shield. 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Dark Mage (it, alongside dark bishop require normal seals. I guess you can sell your dark seals): Stats: +3 0 +3 +1 0 0 0 +2 0 -1 Skills: miasma, heartseeker Mastery: vicious blow (crit+20 on initiation) Req: reason C Ooh, I like the mastery skill. Although I'd pprefer the Dark Seal requirement remain. Let the Dark Merchant sell more of them. Also Heartseeker is pretty trash on a magic (read - ranged) class. Anyway, these are my big thoughts. A few things I liked, but a few more I'm not a fan of. Thanks again for making this thread, and getting me back into the 3H mood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Holy Elf Posted May 4 Share Posted May 4 Neat list! 13 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Ingrid gets a hidden talent in authority (which fits her and her personal) but weakness in axes (could be something else, not feeling strong on this) Dimitri's bane in axes changed to neutral (this never made sense, as axes handle more similar to lances than any other weapon, this bane was, in my opinion, purely gameplay-wise), riding to normal boon, added hidden talent in brawling - mastery: seal movement (really fits his hidden beast tendencies), bane in flying (I really don't see him being a flier) Trading Dimitri's axe bane for a flying bane counterinuitively makes it even easier for him to become a flier, since axe is the higher requirement for Wyvern Rider. Also, if "axes handle similarly to lances" is a reason to not give Dimitri an axe bane, surely that would apply to Ingrid as well. You could give Ingrid a brawling bane since it's the least "knight-like" weapon, but I think she's fine as is myself. Also not a big deal, but since it's in the quoted section I'll mention it: Seal Movement is very bad as is and I would either increase its effect to at least -2 (may not be possible via easy hacking methods) or trade it out for something else. 14 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Shamir's boon in lances changed to swords Bernadetta's boon in lances changed to swords Bernie losing Vengeance (assuming you're keeping alive the trend of characters only getting unique arts in their boons) is a significant nerf, though I suppose you've removed Swift Strikes as well, so perhaps this is just the trend of the hack? (If Cyril still gets Point-Blank Volley at C+ he's smirking, though.) While I'm talking about combat arts, I really like Ingrid and Flayn getting their magic arts moved to C+, A is way too late considering that 1-hit moves peak midgame. 14 hours ago, Alef Zero said: swift strikes repurposed into paladin exclusive master art Paladin is now very OP. I don't think an 8 move class needs this. 14 hours ago, Alef Zero said: thunder magic is switched to high accuracy no crit. thunder range increased to 3 Thunder losing its (5) crit is virtually irrelevant, this is now the best D rank spell by a mile. Meteor and Agnea's Arrow also both rule. I'm not sure if this is a deliberate effort to make Dorothea ridiculously good but if so I'm not complaining? Abraxas is great as well. Class thoughts: -It's not a big deal, but I'd keep Hero as requiring axe instead of authority. There's a very strong tradition of Hero being an axe+sword class (GBA, DS, Awakening/Fates). Also, C authority is basically trivial by Level 20. Hero still feels weak, too (unless Sol is tuned very strong, I suppose). Maybe trade out the mostly useless Defensive Tactics for Axefaire? -Mortal Savant is incredible for infantry now. 10 speed on player phase, super evade on enemy phase, magic access, decent stats otherwise? Yikes. Now even non-sword mages would strongly consider getting to C+ish sword just to get into this instead of Gremory (which has more spell uses but worse everything else). -Dark Knight losing Dark Tomefaire is indeed a downer, as noted. I'd consider giving it back and then giving Lancefaire to Holy Knight. The "sword + magic" niche is already filled twice over by Mortal Savant and Trickster, no need for a third. (Another option is to combine Black and Dark Tomefaire.) -Falcon Knight getting magic is interesting! Compared to Dark Flier, it loses Black Tomefaire but has generally higher stats otherwise. Since it keys on different skills and is available at a different level I think both classes manage to avoid stepping on each other's toes. (Never mind that now non-DLC havers can use a flying mage... although they stlil miss out on the one +mag flying battalion.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alef Zero Posted May 4 Author Share Posted May 4 Quote Please no. Paladin is already a very solid class. It's the first accessible class with 8 move, and actually has the highest physical damage output with Lances of any class. Just let it keep those two traits. It doesn't need Swift Strikes, which IMO should remain character-specific. But lance is the only weapon type to not have a brave art right now. Note that with my changes wyvern lord, great knight and dark/holy knight (who also have 8 mov) would have higher. I don't like ST being character-specific as it makes those 3 characters vastly superior to other. Quote I don't believe the "freeze" condition exists in this game. Maybe it could have a movement-reducing debuff, like Banshee, instead? According to what I've learned, frozen status reduces mov to 0. I'm still yet to test it. Quote What's the point of this? It just removes the reward to the player of heading for S+ in their weapon of choice. After "Weapon Crit +10" at S'rank, there's no motive to go any further. The point is further elasticity - you can get a weaponfaire and keep it while in another class (ex. Felix gets swordfaire and takes it into war master class). Now that I think about it, reducing exp required for S+ rank would be a good idea. Quote This one doesn't seem great for balance. Felix hardly needs a further-boosted chance to increase his physical damage, for instance. And the sucky commoners, like Ashe and Raphael, are gonna get left in the dust. Hm... what if instead, most Crests also have a negative effect, like Blaiddyd? Maybe Annette's Crest of Dominic saves a spell use, but also decreases damage by 5. Or Claude's Crest of Riegan restores HP, but costs an extra weapon use. In that light, I'd be fine with boosting activation rates. So the Crests feel like more of a presence, although not strictly a positive or negative one. Yup, sucky commoners are now in the dust where they belong! Seriously though, it may not be good for balance per se, but like I said, crest absolutely do not show the power story makes them out to be. Aside from Felix's crest, which is very powerful because it's a major crest, most others never stood out to me. Their effects are too rare to matter. Your idea of secondary effects is interesting, but it's not possible with what I have, crests can only have one effect. Dimitri's one is actually hardcoded to do both things (dmg and durability usage up) at once. 8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: 20 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Bow knight skill bonus and req changed from lance to sword Then it's not a viable path for Paladins. This isn't a rebalance, it's a flavor change. No, but it now follows the trend of archer/sniper having sword exp, not lance, and lets you easily switch between bow classes and assassin. 8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: 20 hours ago, Alef Zero said: great lord - added swordfaire, +2 dex +1 def IMO Lance Crit +10 would be way better. It would synthesize with his Battalion Wrath/Vantage setup, and his innate Lance specialty. If Dimitri wants Swordfaire, he has plenty of other options. What are those options? I can only think of swordmaster/assassin, whose ascetics don't fit Dimitri. Great lords traditionally used swords, lord class in this game uses swords, great lord gives sword exp. It seems obvious to me. Battalion W/V is already busted, and with his current talents (no bane in axes, hidden talent in brawling) you could easily go for war master to maximaze this strategy. I want Dimitri to run around in his glorious armor and I want him to use swords! Please don't ruin my dreams T_T. 8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Yes, please! Admittedly, this one is mostly flavor - it wouldn't make Emperor worth using - but it would be pretty fun. Oh, it's definitely worth using now: 9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: 21 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Dancer skills: dance, charm, swordfaire It doesn't need Swordfaire. Dancer is already a really good class, and its combat doesn't matter. The Charm skill would be a cool benefit, if not strictly necessary. If you really want to improve Dancer... maybe Stealth? Just become less likely to get hit. I guess I wanted dancer to be useful for something more than just giving it's turn away. Right now, I don't want any character to be a dancer, since that unit would do nothing anymore. Still, maybe I'm just trying to fix something that's not broken. Stealth would make no sense - dancer are meant to be flashy. 9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: 21 hours ago, Alef Zero said: On tedium and grinding: class mastery exp required is halved (save for commoner but not noble) all faculty members join with all their acquired classes already mastered I dunno, I think the rates are... fine. Especially when you get the statues and Knowledge Gem online. Maybe reduce the requirements a smidge: say, from 20/60/100/150/200 (vanilla), to 20/50/80/120/150 (proposed). On this, I strongly disagree. I remember that, on my first, virgin run of three houses I didn't manage to master a single class, aside from noble/commoner and I guess Ingrid who stayed in pegasus knight until level 30. Not mastering classes means very little skill selection to customize units. Note that you don't have access to statue bonuses until intermediate classes, and knowledge gem appears even later. Going back to lower classes and griding to get good skills is horrible for me. Especially since I remember how nice it was to play awakening and get skills naturally, just be playing in a class. 9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: What if they started halfway? So, like, Gilbert would join with 10 in Noble, 25 in Fighter, and 40 in Armor Knight. You still need to "earn your masteries", it's just lower-effort. Unfortunately, impossible to do. It can either be mastered or at zero. Out of those two, I prefer mastered. Also, how would, say Gilbert, who was a knight his entire life not master his classes? 9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Speaking of Gilbert... he sucks. Especially in chapter 13, where you can't control his loadout whatsoever. If nothing else, give the man a good inventory: Silver Lance, Tomohawk, and Silver Shield. Hmm. Actually, this is a pretty good idea, easy to implement as well. It will be done! (Also, he starts with B authority now). 9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: 21 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Req: axe C+ lance C+ armor B riding B Dark Knight: Stats +3 +2 +3 +2 0 0 +3 0 +4 -1 Skills: canto, lancefaire, black tomefaire Mastery: seal res Req: lance B reason B riding A ...So it's not a viable option for Hubert or Hapi anymore. Lovely... Hmm, why not? Lack of dark tomefaire? My idea is that no class gets dark tomefaire - these spells are superior to black magic, but they don't get a faire. Also Hubert is an asshole 9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: My take between the two? Give Holy Knight a slight edge in Magic. That way, it's doing more damage with White Magic and combat arts, while being slightly more effective at support spells. Meanwhile, Dark Knight will retain a damage advantage with Reason, thanks to its Faires. I want dark and holy knight to be hybrid classes. This is what I thought they were when I first played and I really liked that three hopes made them as such. Dark Knight is already better at magic since black magic is better offensively and it has one more mag. 9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Although I'd pprefer the Dark Seal requirement remain. Let the Dark Merchant sell more of them. Also Heartseeker is pretty trash on a magic (read - ranged) class. But the dark merchant is available very late in the game, you'd have to backtrack and grind dark mage if you want vicious blow. I imagine these classes were supposed to be a reward for beating death knight, but they aren't that good even with my changes, especially since you really aren't beating DK in that first fight without Lysithea (or prior game knowledge). 5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Trading Dimitri's axe bane for a flying bane counterinuitively makes it even easier for him to become a flier, since axe is the higher requirement for Wyvern Rider. Ah, I forgot it only requires C rank. Let's put it to B rank 🙂 Quote Also, if "axes handle similarly to lances" is a reason to not give Dimitri an axe bane, surely that would apply to Ingrid as well. You could give Ingrid a brawling bane since it's the least "knight-like" weapon, but I think she's fine as is myself. Seeing how she effortlessly broke throgh Bernie's or, I don't think punching things is unfit to Ingrid 🙂. I don't know what bane to give her, but with authority hidden talent (which I definitely want her to have) she now have 5 boons and no banes. It's too much. 5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Also not a big deal, but since it's in the quoted section I'll mention it: Seal Movement is very bad as is and I would either increase its effect to at least -2 (may not be possible via easy hacking methods) or trade it out for something else. It actually is possible, but it has to be a solid number (unlike 'halve enemies movement'). Let's leave it at -3 for now (I'm not rising Dimitri's brawling no current run, not tested it yet). 5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Bernie losing Vengeance (assuming you're keeping alive the trend of characters only getting unique arts in their boons) is a significant nerf, though I suppose you've removed Swift Strikes as well, so perhaps this is just the trend of the hack? (If Cyril still gets Point-Blank Volley at C+ he's smirking, though.) She's not, I wasn't paying much attention to the existance of this trend. She's just neutral in it. I changed her boon to sword to ease her access into bow classes (bow knight now requires swords), since I think assassin really fits her. And Cyril keeps his art, everyone hates on him enough. In fact swift strikes removed is the only nerf (as I wrote I dislike them). Side note, Dimitri gets Vengeance now. 5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Paladin is now very OP. I don't think an 8 move class needs this. Deus Vult! 5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Meteor and Agnea's Arrow also both rule. I'm not sure if this is a deliberate effort to make Dorothea ridiculously good but if so I'm not complaining? Abraxas is great as well. As they should, they are very rare. I like Dorothea, but not that much. If anything, it's a deliberate effort to make mages ridiculously good 🙂 5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Never mind that now non-DLC havers can use a flying mage... although they stlil miss out on the one +mag flying battalion.) Welllll... I use dark flier animations for falcon knight casting, so without dlc, it would probably crash. No workaround for that, unfortunately. 5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: -Falcon Knight getting magic is interesting! Compared to Dark Flier, it loses Black Tomefaire but has generally higher stats otherwise. Since it keys on different skills and is available at a different level I think both classes manage to avoid stepping on each other's toes. Maybe I should create and give dark flyer galeforce. Wouldn't it be fun? 🙂 5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: -Mortal Savant is incredible for infantry now. 10 speed on player phase, super evade on enemy phase, magic access, decent stats otherwise? Yikes. Now even non-sword mages would strongly consider getting to C+ish sword just to get into this instead of Gremory (which has more spell uses but worse everything else). That's true, maybe darting blow is too much, but it must have a third skill. Any suggestions? 5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: -It's not a big deal, but I'd keep Hero as requiring axe instead of authority. There's a very strong tradition of Hero being an axe+sword class (GBA, DS, Awakening/Fates). Also, C authority is basically trivial by Level 20. Hero still feels weak, too (unless Sol is tuned very strong, I suppose). Maybe trade out the mostly useless Defensive Tactics for Axefaire? Like I said, I have trouble what to make out of Hero. Axefaire would be nice, but no advanced class has two faire, so it'd have to be moved to master class. I intended hero to be an offtank, not as tanky as fortress knight, but faster, defensive tactics would play into it, as it allows to take more hits before losing battalion and I always imagine hero as a champion leading allies on a battlefield. I'll give it some more thought/ 5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: -Dark Knight losing Dark Tomefaire is indeed a downer, as noted. I'd consider giving it back and then giving Lancefaire to Holy Knight. The "sword + magic" niche is already filled twice over by Mortal Savant and Trickster, no need for a third. (Another option is to combine Black and Dark Tomefaire.) But holy knight would get white tomefaire, not black, so mortal savant goes into another niche. Lancefaire makes it worth to take Sylvain into it, otherwise his reason talent is hard to utilize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alef Zero Posted May 4 Author Share Posted May 4 Side note - what do you think about splitting mortal savant into two classes: samurai (male ex) with swordfaire, bowfaire, darting blow (keen intuition on mastery) kunoichi (female ex) swordfaire, stealth, pass, [access to magic] (some mastery, possibly the same?) Their outfits really don't match the same class. Hero could be repurposed into 'mystic knight', instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenticular Posted May 4 Share Posted May 4 I'm not entirely sure what your overall purpose is here. Is this supposed to be something that you're releasing for the community, or just something that you're making for your own use? If it's just for your own use, then I'm not really sure what you need our feedback for? But if it's something for the community at large, then you seem to be leaning into your own personal preferences a whole lot. I'm also not really sure what your motivations are for some of the changes here. Like, changing Shamir from a lance proficiency to a sword proficiency just seems completely random. I guess it makes it slightly harder for her to go into Falcon Knight? But it's hard to say whether I think this is a good change or a bad change without knowing why you're doing it in the first place. Anyway, with that said, let's look at some of the specifics. I'm sure I'll miss a few bits that I have thoughts on given that it's a long list. 16 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Unit talents: You aren't mentioning here what you're doing with unit-specific combat arts. The current system is that unit skill proficiencies exactly correspond with the weapons that the unit gets extra combat arts in, and I definitely think that that should be kept. So for any extra weapon proficiency that you're adding, it'd be nice to know what combat arts are going along with it. 16 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Ingrid gets a hidden talent in authority (which fits her and her personal) but weakness in axes (could be something else, not feeling strong on this) This one makes me a little sad. Ingris has always been one of my favourite units to build, in part because she doesn't have any weaknesses, which makes her a good fit for pretty much any class. I don't think it's over-powered, but it does make her fun to use. 16 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Catherine gets a boon in armor (no reason really, just wanted her to have it) Personally, I'd like to see Catherine with a boon in Faith. Partly because I think it's a good fit in terms of lore/character, and partly to give her a slightly smoother path into War Cleric to make use of her Brawling boon. Giving her Seraphim at B Faith could also be fun, though not particularly impactful given her low Magic stat. 16 hours ago, Alef Zero said: -changed byleth's white magic learnt - Aura learnt on faith B. On faith A M!Byleth gets abraxas, F!Byleth gets seraphim Having Seraphim come after Aura for female Byleth feels really weird, given that Seraphim is the lower damage of the two, and that everyone else who gets Seraphim gets it at either C (Lysithes) or B (everyone else) in Faith. Getting it at A, after having already learned Aura, seems backwards. 16 hours ago, Alef Zero said: -removed swift strkes from relevant units (changed to different skills: Sylvain - frozen lance, Seteth - shatter lance, Ferdinand von Aegir - lance jab) This seems like a pretty big nerf to these characters. Seteth especially seems like her would be hit quite hard, given that you don't really have as much time to build him as you want, and to some extent just have to take him as he comes. 16 hours ago, Alef Zero said: -changed Ingrid's magic attack arts rank from A to C+ -changed flayn's frozen lance from A to C+ I'm a big fan of these. This would make them much more relevant. 16 hours ago, Alef Zero said: increased accuracy and crit rate of astra to +20, reduced cost to 5 This is a move in the right direction, but feels to me like it doesn't go far enough. 5 x 30% is only 150% of a regular attack, and while there are some other benefits like increasing the reliability of crit builds, it still pales in compariosn to the likes of Swift Strikes and Hunter's Volley. Especially given that Hunter's Volley can be done from range 3 and Swift Strikes can be delivered from a high movement class with Canto. Maybe make it 5 hits at 50% damage, while keeping the increased hit and crit and the reduced cost? 16 hours ago, Alef Zero said: swift strikes repurposed into paladin exclusive master art I agree with what's already been said about this not being necessary. I think that Paladin is in a pretty good place in the base game, honestly. It's a solid option for some characters and builds, but not so strong that it dominates the meta or that you try to force characters into it even when it doesn't really fit them. Aegis is a pretty underwhelming mastery, but with high move and canto, it's strong enough as is that it doesn't need a mastery to rvial Hunter's Volley or Fierce Iron Fist. 1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Thunder losing its (5) crit is virtually irrelevant, this is now the best D rank spell by a mile. It is, and I'm in two minds about whether I think that's a problem or not. Overall, I think probably not? Characters who learn Thunder generally aren't overpowered (at least, not as mages) so giving them a boost doesn't seem like the worst thing. That said, if Thunder does get 3 range, it probably shouldn't have anything else going for it. If it was both the weakest of the D rank spells and the least accurate, then the extra range would still be enough to make it the best of the bunch, but not by as big a margin. I would maybe go something like: Wind: Mt 3, Hit 100, Crit 10, Rng 1-2, Wt 2 Fire: Mt 4, Hit 90, Crit 0, Rng 1-2, Wt 3 Thunder: Mt 2, Hit 70, Crit 0, Rng 1-3, Wt 4 Blizzard: Mt 5, Hit 70, Crit 20, Rng 1-2, Wt 3 17 hours ago, Alef Zero said: nosferatu weight reduced to 4 abraxas is now range 2-4 power 18, cannot double aura's crit reduced to 0, hit increased to 100 Offensive White Magic definitely needs buffing, for sure. The reduced weight for Nosferatu seems good, though honestly I might go even further and take it down to 2 or 3, and maybe even give the spell a little extra might. The limited uses inherent in the way that Three Houses' magic system works means that it's never going to be the menace that it is in Awakening, so I think it would be fine to tune it aggressively. Turning Abraxas into a high-range spell is a fun idea. Though at that point, I might just go the whole way and make it 3-10 range to make it a Faith equivalent of Meteor and Bolting. (And at that point, I'd probably just rename it to Purge for series consistency.) For Aura, I think that it would probably be fine to raise its hit and keep the crit. It still wouldn't compare favourably to the best Black Magic of comparable level (especially your buffed versions). 17 hours ago, Alef Zero said: defiant skills activate below 50% HP, stat boosts increased from 8 to 9, defiant avo reduced from 30 to 25, crit reduced from 50 to 25 I'm not sure what to make of these. My first impression is "they were bad before and they're still bad now", but I know that I'm just fundamentally not a fan of low HP builds, so that might just be my biases talking. It also might just be that they usually come online so late that I ignore them, and improving availability might save them. I really don't know. One thing I wish is that the effect could scale based on how much health the unit is missing. If it was "gain 1 [stat] for every 10% health below maximum" then I think I would probably like them better, but I don't know how difficult that owuld be to add in a balance patch. But I think that the biggest problem that I have with Defiant skills is that they just aren't very interesting. Having so many late game classes have a Defiant skill as a mastery just makes me tune them out, honestly. Maybe keep around some of the better ones (like crit and avoid), combine others (eg, Defiant Def and Defiant Res combined into a single skill) and then create some new skills in place of the more uninspiring ones? 17 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Lore Accuracy changes: -doubled activation rate of all crest effects (save for those that cancel counter attacks, those increased by 50%) -buffed all hero relics and sacred weapons -vastly upgraded all hero relics' exclusive weapon arts [Reliance on crest is a vital point of many characters' backstories, it's detrimental to have them so weak in the game] This is one of those areas where it makes a big difference whether you're building this for yourself or for everyone. Because I just fundamentally disagree with this motivation. Units with crests already feel as if they have a pretty big advantage over those without, if only for their ability to safely wield Heroes' Relics, and I wouldn't want the game to feel that all the commoners were just the objectively worst characters. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the weaker Relics (eg Aegis Shield, Blutgang, Crusher) buffed a little bit to see them brought in line with the stronger ones, but the likes of Thyrsus, Thunderbrand, Lance of Ruin, and the Lord-exclusive weapons feel plenty strong already. Of course, if you're just doing all this for your own use, then you should prioritise whatever would be most fun for you. 17 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Vast changes to majority of classes: One thing I notice here is that you've mostly left the Intermediate level classes untouched, whereas to me, they're one of the biggest problem points in the game. There's such a heavy incentive to pick up Death Blow or Fiendish Blow, Darting Blow if female, and maybe Hit +20, and the other mastery skills here don't compete at all except for some occasional builds that want Vantage. This leads to this tier of play feeling very stale and repetitive a lot of the time. My first attempt at a rebalance of the Intermediate tier masteries: Death Blow and Fiendish Blow reduced from +6 down to +4. Darting Blow also reduced from +6 to +4, and moved from Pegasus Knight to Thief. This would allow male characters to pick up the skill, and remove one of the strongest masteries from the strongest Intermediate class. If you use a Pegasus Knight, your reward is having a Pegasus Knight. Thief still gets to keep Steal as well, since that's largely a flavour thing that gives very minimal increased power. To compensate Pegasus Knight, buff Triangle Attack to provide a guaranteed crit. I still don't think this is good, due to the positioning requirement, but it's something. Unarmed combat is thematically cool but very weak unless you're doing a challenge run where you aren't allowed to use any items, but who would do that? so it needs a buff. I don't know what can and can't be added to something like this, but my first thought is that fighting unarmed should grant something like +4 AS and +10 avoid, to compensate for the loss of might. Instead of Miracle, Priest gets White Magic Heal +5 as a mastery as well as a class skill. Or as an alternative, move Renewal from Bishop to Priest, and give Bishop either Heal +5 or Heal +10 as its mastery. Being able to have an equippable skill that gives a healing bonus would be very welcome for classes like Holy Knight and Gremory. Instead of Armored Blow, Armor Knights now get Wrath. Armored Blow is just not good. Wrath makes thematic and mechanical sense for a class that is all about being able to take hits. This would also allow vantage/wrath builds to come online a good while earlier than they currently can, which I don't think would be too OP, given that they still face numerous threats even once they're set up. Taking Wrath away from Warrior also fits in with the reassignment of War Master's strike to there. For Dark Mages, I like your idea of Vicious Blow. Archer and Mercenary stay as they are with Hit +20 and Vantage respectively. Both are already decent choices that some characters want and others don't, which I think is the sweet spot. Cavalier also remains unchanged. Desperation isn't particularly good, but Cavalier is in a similar place to Pegasus Knight: it's just a good class. The trade off here is "power now" versus "power later". 20 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Enlightened one - added white tomefaire I like this. It doesn't offer all that much in teh way of extra power, but it's a good flavour win, and it might come in handy from time to time. 4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: -Mortal Savant is incredible for infantry now. 10 speed on player phase, super evade on enemy phase, magic access, decent stats otherwise? Yikes. Now even non-sword mages would strongly consider getting to C+ish sword just to get into this instead of Gremory (which has more spell uses but worse everything else). Seconding this. I know that Mortal Savant has a bit of a bad reputation, but I think it's mostly fine as is, as a choice for characters with good magic sword arts. Maybe it could do with a bit of a boost to its speed, but this seems like overkill. 20 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Holy Knight: Stats: +3 +3 +2 +2 +1 0 +3 +4 +4 +1 Skills: canto, swordfaire, white tomefaire Mastery: defiant res Req: sword B faith B riding A There are lots of different potential ways you could take Holy Knight. Personally, I'd consider giving it Canto, White Tomefaire, and White Magic Uses x2, but pretty much anything is an improvement over Terrain Resistance. I'd probably give it a new mastery as well, since Defiant Res is terrible. 4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: -It's not a big deal, but I'd keep Hero as requiring axe instead of authority. There's a very strong tradition of Hero being an axe+sword class (GBA, DS, Awakening/Fates). Also, C authority is basically trivial by Level 20. Hero still feels weak, too (unless Sol is tuned very strong, I suppose). Maybe trade out the mostly useless Defensive Tactics for Axefaire? Maybe replace Sol with Aether? Although that might be harder to add. 20 hours ago, Alef Zero said: falcon knight - changed req sword C to faith C, can now use magic, lowered mov to 7 This is an interesting idea, but possibly too powerful? Falcon Knight is already very strong, and with the nerfs you're proposing for Wyverns, I think there's a good argument that it's already the strongest class in the game. Maybe give it magic at half uses, just to pull things back slightly? 20 hours ago, Alef Zero said: emperor - can use magic This is definitely welcome, but I think the Emperor class needs more than this. Maybe getting rid of the Armored Lord class entirely, and just having Edelgard start Part 2 as an Emperor, sicne Crimson Flower is shorter than the other routes? I also want to tie Raging Storm to the Emperor class, somehow, though I'm not sure what the best approach would be. But doing so would be a big buff to the underpowered Emperor class, and a nerf to Edelgard overall, since beign able to have Raging Storm on a high movement class is just busted. Maybe this: Edelgard starts Part 2 as Emperor Emperor can use magic Emperor class skills are Charm and Axefaire Emperor mastery gives Pomp & Circumstance and Raging Storm Raging Storm is no longer tied to Aymr, but now consumes all durability on the attacking weapon Aymr now allows the use of the Flickering Flower combat art Flickering Flower is buffed so that as well as applying the freeze effect, it now also prevents the opponent from counter-attacking (the Windsweep effect). I have probably made this too powerful, but in fairness, vanilla Edelgard is already too powerful and I'd rather have her be too powerful in her unique class than too powerful on a wyvern. 21 hours ago, Alef Zero said: On tedium and grinding: class mastery exp required is halved (save for commoner but not noble) all faculty members join with all their acquired classes already mastered I like the second part of this but not the first. I always thought that class masteries came in at about the right rate. Especially for Noble/Commoner, Beginner, and Intermediate classes. Maybe make Advanced classes a little bit faster but not so much as halving. Master classes do seem like they could do with beign faster, though. 9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Maybe reduce the requirements a smidge: say, from 20/60/100/150/200 (vanilla), to 20/50/80/120/150 (proposed). Yeah, I'd support something along these lines. I do like giving faculty members the masteries for their lower-tier classes, though. Not only would this get rid of some busywork, it also gives a bit of a buff to these characters, which I feel is generally needed. 21 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Meanwhile, master classes are all hybrid classes with dual faire skills and higher stats, but also higher requrements. This is meant to give a choice - a low-effort class with a unique skills after mastery, or a premium class with higher requirements. Dual faire skills mostly just aren't very useful, IMO. There just aren't very many reasons to switch between different weapons, so it's usually better to just stick with a single specialisation. That way, you get to higher weapon rank, don't need to equip two Prowess skills, and so on. Adding magic to a class is generally good (since it gives access to the healing and utility of white magic), as is adding a mount for extra mobility. But I don't think that adding a second weapon type is ever going to be worth the cost. 21 hours ago, Alef Zero said: A random thought - do you think game would gain if all faire skills were removed from classes and replaced with other skills? There is no limit on how many requirements and proficiency bonuses classes can give (even though in the base game these are capped at 3 and 4 respectively). Interesting question. I think that -faire skills generally do a decent job of keeping classes associated with their weapons, which does a decent job of encouraging class diversity. In the vanilla game, this gives choices like "do I put my lance user in paladin for maximum damage, or on a wyvern for extra flight?" and encourages me to have at least one sword class (typically Assassin) because I want someone to wield Thunderbrand. That sort of thing. And without that, there'd be generally clearer "best " classes, and the only question would be whether you could reasonable certify for them (which would only encourage savescumming certifications at low success chance). I mean, think how bad wyvern hegemony is, and imagine how much worse it would be if other classes didn't have advantages at using lances, swords, and bows. But that said, if you can keep class identities through other means (like with unique combat arts), then that might be enough to mitigate that concern. I think that the game would feel quite different without -faire skills, and my immediate reaction is that it would probably be a change for the worse, but I'm not confident of that. Oh, but one thing that I will say is that if -faire skills were removed, that would make Catherine and Shamir a good bit weaker when they're initially recruited and have them lose a lot of their niche as pre-promotes. Not the end of the world, but it would be a loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alef Zero Posted May 4 Author Share Posted May 4 1 hour ago, lenticular said: Is this supposed to be something that you're releasing for the community, or just something that you're making for your own use? Yes. Do you think they are mutually exclusive? I don't. Of course it's born from my ideas how it should be, but not uploading it for community is just such a waste. Even if a single person used and enjoy it, it would be worth uploading, don't you think? Feedback may have been a poor choice of word, think of it like an invitation to discussion. 1 hour ago, lenticular said: I'm also not really sure what your motivations are for some of the changes here. Like, changing Shamir from a lance proficiency to a sword proficiency just seems completely random. I changed her prof from lances to sword, since bow knight's req are also changed from lance to sword. It would also let her easily access assassin, which fits her character. Same goes for Bernadetta. 2 hours ago, lenticular said: But I think that the biggest problem that I have with Defiant skills is that they just aren't very interesting. Having so many late game classes have a Defiant skill as a mastery just makes me tune them out, honestly. Maybe keep around some of the better ones (like crit and avoid), combine others (eg, Defiant Def and Defiant Res combined into a single skill) and then create some new skills in place of the more uninspiring ones? How about the reverse - them working when above 50% HP? Although I suppose it would make them too strong. 2 hours ago, lenticular said: This one makes me a little sad. Ingris has always been one of my favourite units to build, in part because she doesn't have any weaknesses, which makes her a good fit for pretty much any class. I don't think it's over-powered, but it does make her fun to use. I feel like her amount of boons is balanced by her weak stats, but I really think that 5 boons is too much. Need to think about it a little. 2 hours ago, lenticular said: This is a move in the right direction, but feels to me like it doesn't go far enough. 5 x 30% is only 150% of a regular attack, and while there are some other benefits like increasing the reliability of crit builds, it still pales in compariosn to the likes of Swift Strikes and Hunter's Volley. Especially given that Hunter's Volley can be done from range 3 and Swift Strikes can be delivered from a high movement class with Canto. Maybe make it 5 hits at 50% damage, while keeping the increased hit and crit and the reduced cost? It cannot be done, "hit 5 times for 30% dmg" is hardcoded as one effect. It must be balanced via adjusting dmg. crit and accuracy. 2 hours ago, lenticular said: But doing so would be a big buff to the underpowered Emperor class, and a nerf to Edelgard overall, since beign able to have Raging Storm on a high movement class is just busted. Amyr is one of the the few relics that did not get a boost, as raging storm is already game-breaking. In fact, I increased it's cost to 5, so that she can can only get 4 additional moves. Giving her emperor could break some things, as these classes are acquired automatically. And given I dislike Edelgard, I don't feel like buffing her too much. 1 hour ago, lenticular said: Maybe replace Sol with Aether? Although that might be harder to add. Undoable, unfortunately - weapon arts can only have one special effect. 1 hour ago, lenticular said: This is an interesting idea, but possibly too powerful? Falcon Knight is already very strong, and with the nerfs you're proposing for Wyverns, I think there's a good argument that it's already the strongest class in the game. Maybe give it magic at half uses, just to pull things back slightly? Half magic usage seems to be hardcoded for specific classes. If I figure out how to do it, it's a good idea, otherwise it will have to stay as it is. 2 hours ago, lenticular said: Personally, I'd like to see Catherine with a boon in Faith. Partly because I think it's a good fit in terms of lore/character, and partly to give her a slightly smoother path into War Cleric to make use of her Brawling boon. Giving her Seraphim at B Faith could also be fun, though not particularly impactful given her low Magic stat. Does it really fit her? She's fanatic to Rhea, I don't think she mentions church itself a single time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted May 4 Share Posted May 4 5 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Unfortunately, impossible to do. It can either be mastered or at zero. Out of those two, I prefer mastered. Also, how would, say Gilbert, who was a knight his entire life not master his classes? Okay, I did not know. Hm... maybe let the Beginner class and Commoner/Noble be mastered, but not the Intermediate class? That way, they don't have to go back to the really pathetic classes, but can still choose to go back to Intermediate for a while. 5 hours ago, Alef Zero said: But lance is the only weapon type to not have a brave art right now. Note that with my changes wyvern lord, great knight and dark/holy knight (who also have 8 mov) would have higher. I don't like ST being character-specific as it makes those 3 characters vastly superior to other. I disagree. If you think Swift Strikes is overpowered, my recommendation would be to increase its cost, or reduce its stat modifiers. I would not link it to the already-good Paladin class. Moreover, this points to one of the risks of rebalancing - the "war of attrition" effect. "Oh, I've buffed class Y, so now class X, which was balanced in the base game, is inferior. I must buff class X!" This approach will just create more work and more headaches, IMO. I suggest keeping buffs more limited (Dark and Holy Knight don't need both Lancefaire and 8 move - one or the other, please), so you don't need a continually-escalating series of "counter-buffs". 5 hours ago, Alef Zero said: What are those options? I can only think of swordmaster/assassin, whose ascetics don't fit Dimitri. Great lords traditionally used swords, lord class in this game uses swords, great lord gives sword exp. It seems obvious to me. Battalion W/V is already busted, and with his current talents (no bane in axes, hidden talent in brawling) you could easily go for war master to maximaze this strategy. I want Dimitri to run around in his glorious armor and I want him to use swords! Please don't ruin my dreams T_T. Yeah, Assassin. I don't really care about whether or not the class suits him aesthetically. And hey, isn't there an option in the base game to let units use their "default" appearance in battle, regardless of appearance? Lance Crit +10 is better on Great Lord IMO because it synergizes with Lancefaire. When Dimitri is equipping a Lance, Swordfaire is doing nothing for him. When he has a Sword equipped, Lancefaire does him no good. At least one of the skills is a waste, at any given time. 5 hours ago, lenticular said: Dual faire skills mostly just aren't very useful, IMO. There just aren't very many reasons to switch between different weapons, so it's usually better to just stick with a single specialisation. That way, you get to higher weapon rank, don't need to equip two Prowess skills, and so on. Adding magic to a class is generally good (since it gives access to the healing and utility of white magic), as is adding a mount for extra mobility. But I don't think that adding a second weapon type is ever going to be worth the cost. Strong seconding this. Like, say I want a unit specializing in both Swords and Lances. I've gotta put Lance Prowess and Sword Prowess on them. Swordbreaker and Axebreaker would be great, too, for the Hit/Avo rates. Definitely want Sword Crit +10 and Lance Crit +10 if I can hit S-rank. Great, so now I have room left over for... negative one skills? Wonderful. If I specialize in just Lances, I can run Lance Prowess, Swordbreaker, and Lance Crit +10, while still having space for two more skills. Say, Death Blow and Strength +2. That's a way better performance than I could ever get in a "dual wielding" build. 5 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Hmm. Actually, this is a pretty good idea, easy to implement as well. It will be done! (Also, he starts with B authority now). Thanks! And definitely appreciate the higher Authority (maybe join with a better battalion as well?). I'm a fan of Gilbert, but in the base game, he has plenty of problems. 3 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Giving her emperor could break some things, as these classes are acquired automatically. And given I dislike Edelgard, I don't feel like buffing her too much. It's your mod, you can do what you want... but IMO, this is a really poor paradigm for a rebalancing effort. Which units and classes go up - and which go down - should not be based on your personal affinity for them. But rather, on their general utility for any given player. If you don't think Emperor should be buffed further, I suggest making a gameplay-based argument for why it's "good enough already", with your proposed limited changes. TBH I do agree, in a rebalancing sense, that Edelgard doesn't need to be any stronger. She's already arguably the best unit in the game. That said, her strength and reputation certainly do not come from her personal classes, but rather, in spite of them. 5 hours ago, lenticular said: My first attempt at a rebalance of the Intermediate tier masteries: Honestly a fan of most of these. One potential point of disagreement is Hit +20, which I think is the best skill in the game. Literally every combat unit - physical, magical, player-phase, enemy-phase - enjoys it. I'd suggest pulling it back, if possible to Hit +10. Maybe Hit +15, so it's halfway to Uncanny Blow. If that's not possible, maybe instead do Bow Range +1 as an equippable skill? That'll be good on anyone still using Bows, and "stacks" somewhat with the Bow classes. But the lowered Hit rates at long-range will prevent it from being OP. 5 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Side note - what do you think about splitting mortal savant into two classes: samurai (male ex) with swordfaire, bowfaire, darting blow (keen intuition on mastery) kunoichi (female ex) swordfaire, stealth, pass, [access to magic] (some mastery, possibly the same?) Their outfits really don't match the same class. Hero could be repurposed into 'mystic knight', instead. TBH I'm not a fan of sex-segregated classes in 3H to begin with. So I don't see this adding much in terms of balance. Changing Hero into anything but a "Swords and Axes" class, too, would really clash with its established flavor in the series. 5 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Dark Knight is already better at magic since black magic is better offensively and it has one more mag. Yes, that's the problem. That's why it's almost always superior to Holy Knight. I'm suggesting a way in which both classes can retain their "vanilla" functionality, while still giving players a reason (heh) to use one over the other. 5 hours ago, Alef Zero said: No, but it now follows the trend of archer/sniper having sword exp, not lance, and lets you easily switch between bow classes and assassin. Then what's a unit who trains in Bows and Lances to do? It seems like you're taking realistic options away, moreso than adding them. 11 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Meteor and Agnea's Arrow also both rule. I'm not sure if this is a deliberate effort to make Dorothea ridiculously good but if so I'm not complaining? Abraxas is great as well. I was actually fine with this one, since they're so limited in uses. Like, if a unit only gets two Agnea's Arrows per map, then it makes sense for each one to be a "nuke", so to speak. Not to mention, it's a reward for training high in Reason, so it should be better than earlier-learned spells. Likewise with Meteor, but in my case, because it makes Hanneman better. Haha. Speaking of units who need to get better, maybe Manuela could get a little love? Make Trickster not suck anymore (6 move, full spell uses), mayhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alef Zero Posted May 4 Author Share Posted May 4 1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: I disagree. If you think Swift Strikes is overpowered, my recommendation would be to increase its cost, or reduce its stat modifiers. I would not link it to the already-good Paladin class. I think it is OP, bacause other brave arts are tied to a class, that is inferior to it's master class. Swift strikes can be used in any class, so in the base game you use it as a wyvern lord to make one-rounding, fast, extremely mobile and dodgy unit. Besides, once you unlock swift strikes, you are never using any other art - even ruined sky for Sylvain is weaker than this one. 1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: It's your mod, you can do what you want... but IMO, this is a really poor paradigm for a rebalancing effort. Which units and classes go up - and which go down - should not be based on your personal affinity for them. But rather, on their general utility for any given player. If you don't think Emperor should be buffed further, I suggest making a gameplay-based argument for why it's "good enough already", with your proposed limited changes. TBH I do agree, in a rebalancing sense, that Edelgard doesn't need to be any stronger. She's already arguably the best unit in the game. That said, her strength and reputation certainly do not come from her personal classes, but rather, in spite of them. It was a joke. I just feel that Emperor with 6 in defense and resistance, access to magic with dark tomefaire is plenty strong already. Don't know about armored lord, but these are stepping stones anyway. 1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: TBH I'm not a fan of sex-segregated classes in 3H to begin with. So I don't see this adding much in terms of balance. Honestly? My main reason is to make use of "Rhea Sword" animation set (the one she uses in crimson flower I presume? I've never seen them), which is cool, but only fits women. Quote Changing Hero into anything but a "Swords and Axes" class, too, would really clash with its established flavor in the series. What if I changed it's name to Mystic Knight? Nobody would realize. 🙂 1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Then what's a unit who trains in Bows and Lances to do? It seems like you're taking realistic options away, moreso than adding them. I don't understand this question - and what's a unit who trains brawling and bow supposed to do? Nothing, there is no way to fit all possible weapon combinations. Bow/sword is at least consistent than bow knight randomly switching from swords to lances. 1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Honestly a fan of most of these. One potential point of disagreement is Hit +20, which I think is the best skill in the game. Literally every combat unit - physical, magical, player-phase, enemy-phase - enjoys it. I'd suggest pulling it back, if possible to Hit +10. Maybe Hit +15, so it's halfway to Uncanny Blow. If that's not possible, maybe instead do Bow Range +1 as an equippable skill? That'll be good on anyone still using Bows, and "stacks" somewhat with the Bow classes. But the lowered Hit rates at long-range will prevent it from being OP. It being so good is precisely why I don't want to remove it. Lowering it is not possible since... it's icon has +20, it would be silly if it was actually less. Bow range sounds cool, but on maddening, bow knight's attacks at range 4 reach around 50% hit WITH hit+20. You're not hitting with a bow from that much away. And since uncanny blow is exclusive for women, how are you fixing hit rate of some units? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Holy Elf Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 12 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Seeing how she effortlessly broke throgh Bernie's or, I don't think punching things is unfit to Ingrid 🙂. I don't know what bane to give her, but with authority hidden talent (which I definitely want her to have) she now have 5 boons and no banes. It's too much. That's a good point. That said, for what it's worth I don't really think "no banes" is really too much. 13 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Like I said, I have trouble what to make out of Hero. Axefaire would be nice, but no advanced class has two faire, so it'd have to be moved to master class. I intended hero to be an offtank, not as tanky as fortress knight, but faster, defensive tactics would play into it, as it allows to take more hits before losing battalion and I always imagine hero as a champion leading allies on a battlefield. Hm, well, I personally wouldn't have a hangup with some classes having more -faires than others at a given tier; Valkyrie and Trickster have zero -faire skills, after all. That said, if you want to emphasize tankishness, I think its mods should show that beter; 4 def and 0 res is above average but I didn't really figure out that was what you were going for. It's a 5 move class, it's gotta be a bit better to stand out from the crowd. Going to like 5 HP / 5 def / 2 res would communicate its purpose a bit better, I think. If you do end up deciding to keep authority as a prereq, definitely go for B as a requirement imo. 13 hours ago, lenticular said: Personally, I'd like to see Catherine with a boon in Faith. Partly because I think it's a good fit in terms of lore/character, and partly to give her a slightly smoother path into War Cleric to make use of her Brawling boon. Giving her Seraphim at B Faith could also be fun, though not particularly impactful given her low Magic stat. Definitely agree with this. And I'll mention Seraphim is a pretty cool spell on any magic stat, since IMO its main purpose is instantly breaking a monster's barrier, moreso than damage. It's worth mentioning that Catherine's "Prepare to taste the blade of one who serves the goddess!" definitely establishes that she has devotion to the Church/faith as a whole, not just Rhea. 7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Okay, I did not know. Hm... maybe let the Beginner class and Commoner/Noble be mastered, but not the Intermediate class? That way, they don't have to go back to the really pathetic classes, but can still choose to go back to Intermediate for a while. I don't feel too strongly about this overall, but I do think this decision depends a bit on tuning these characters. Would Gilbert be better with Def+2 and Reposition as an option? Sure, but obviously there are other ways you can buff him too (for instance, just raising his starting defence by 2 is strictly better than giving him access to Def+2). In the intermediate class balance as is, different characters would benefit different amounts from automatically mastering earlier classes. Alois getting free Death Blow would be a huge help, whereas Gilbert's prior masteries are pretty minor (Reposition would normally be a big deal, but he already has Smite, which is fairly similar). 7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Strong seconding this. Like, say I want a unit specializing in both Swords and Lances. I've gotta put Lance Prowess and Sword Prowess on them. Swordbreaker and Axebreaker would be great, too, for the Hit/Avo rates. Definitely want Sword Crit +10 and Lance Crit +10 if I can hit S-rank. Great, so now I have room left over for... negative one skills? Wonderful. I don't think this is totally fair. First of all, Sword/Lance Crit+ are pretty situational for most builds, and even the -breakers are often a battle-to-battle thing e.g. Axebreaker is only useful if you're planning to fight a bunch of axe-users. Having two prowess skills can be useful just to have an option to avoid enemy breakers (which are more potent than your own). I don't think sword+lance is great (except maybe on an evade-over-everything Ingrid), but I think some other combinations have definite uses. The classic one to me is Wyverns, who will run axes for immense power, but it's often nice to have another weapon type to more reliably hit mercs/swordmasters/heroes, or just give access to other combat arts. Which weapon may depend on whatever is convenient for the unit in question (lances for Ingrid, who can also use Burning Quake; bows for Cyril/Leonie, who have Point-Blank Volley, swords for Catherine, who starts at A rank and will likely wield Thunderbrand, etc.) I don't think it's necessary for the build, mind - one-weapon wyverns certainly work fine too, either axes or something else - but I think it's a valid choice, particularly for some units. The other nice thing about prowess skills is they're often quite low-cost to acquire; you don't need to master a class, you just need to train a skill some at some point in the game (and for later-joiners this training may even occur automatically). This is why I might favour a second prowess skill as a solution to weaponbreaker+ over say Hit +20, which is not only less effective at the same job (though more effective at other jobs) but actually requires a potentially significant detour. 7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Honestly a fan of most of these. One potential point of disagreement is Hit +20, which I think is the best skill in the game. Not even a top three skill for intermediate masteries imo! (which admittedly says more about the top three). 3H just makes it too easy to get hit in other ways. And if you're not averse to using the 8+ uses of Divine Pulse you have by the time you're mastering intermediate classes, pulsing away bad misses the rare time they happen is one of the easiest uses of the mechanic. But... I dunno, I've done an ironman run of the game, and even then I only got Hit+20 on two people, when by comparison, 8 units mastered Brigand. And if I did another such run I would build my units similarly, because I was happy with my ability to achieve reliable hit rates on that run. I basically agree with lenticular that it's useful, but its value really varies - it's great for Vantage/Wrath builds (which can't afford to miss and can't benefit from non-adjutant linked attacks) and bow range+ classes, but I'm kinda lukewarm on it otherwise. 8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Speaking of units who need to get better, maybe Manuela could get a little love? Make Trickster not suck anymore (6 move, full spell uses), mayhaps? Yeah I definitely agree with this, I think Manuela is a unit who can be safely buffed in a few ways. I kinda like what they're going for with her: a hybrid character who can do well in both physical, magical, or hybrid builds, but without the raw strength/magic to dominate at at one of them. The biggest problem though, is that starting at E reason, E authority, E axes is a hard hole to climb out of. Honestly, I would probably swap her Reason bane for a boon (she's Dorothea's mentor, I kinda like Dorothea inheriting her own boons from Manuela) and getting easier access to Mage and Fiendish Blow alone would do wonders for her. She already has quite a different stat build from Dorothea (and Hanneman for that matter), so I wouldn't worry about her feeling too similar. 7 hours ago, Alef Zero said: I don't understand this question - and what's a unit who trains brawling and bow supposed to do? Nothing, there is no way to fit all possible weapon combinations. Bow/sword is at least consistent than bow knight randomly switching from swords to lances. I'm not sure what you mean by switching here... are you considering Bow Knight to be an evolution of Assassin? Because flavour-wise they feel very different. Bow Knight, to me, is an evolution of both Sniper and Paladin, and the game reflects this with its required ranks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 9 hours ago, Alef Zero said: What if I changed it's name to Mystic Knight? Nobody would realize. 🙂 Then we're definitely moving beyond "rebalance" patch territory. Which, if that's what you wanna do, then fine I guess. It's just not what you originally advertised. 9 hours ago, Alef Zero said: think it is OP, bacause other brave arts are tied to a class, that is inferior to it's master class. Swift strikes can be used in any class, so in the base game you use it as a wyvern lord to make one-rounding, fast, extremely mobile and dodgy unit. IMO both Wyvern Lord and Paladin make strong cases for the Swift Strikes user. Paladin has Lancefaire, and access to grounded battalions, whereas Wyvern Lord has flying mobility. Either one can be preferable, situationally speaking. 9 hours ago, Alef Zero said: It was a joke. I just feel that Emperor with 6 in defense and resistance, access to magic with dark tomefaire is plenty strong already. Don't know about armored lord, but these are stepping stones anyway. Alright, fair enough. For the record, I like you're proposed changes to Emperor, and think the nerfs to Wyvern Lord would effectively nerf Edelgard (which I do not oppose). That said, I think a balance patch should not neglect to look at the "stepping stone" classes. Is Wyvern Rider too strong? Could High Lord use some extra help? How about the DLC classes, which you've not touched on? That's an extra direction to look into. 9 hours ago, Alef Zero said: It being so good is precisely why I don't want to remove it. Lowering it is not possible since... it's icon has +20, it would be silly if it was actually less. Bow range sounds cool, but on maddening, bow knight's attacks at range 4 reach around 50% hit WITH hit+20. You're not hitting with a bow from that much away. And since uncanny blow is exclusive for women, how are you fixing hit rate of some units? ...These ones were all good points. I made my argument in haste. I still personally think of Archer mastery as the best overall in the game - even if others reasonably disagree. My "longshot" idea would be, move Hit +20 up to Sniper instead (in addition to Hunter's Volley), while equippable Bowrange +1 comes from Archer mastery. That way, the skill can still be obtained in its vanilla form - it just takes more effort, both to certify and master. But Archer keeping it? Hardly the end of the world to me. 9 hours ago, Alef Zero said: don't understand this question - and what's a unit who trains brawling and bow supposed to do? Nothing, there is no way to fit all possible weapon combinations. Bow/sword is at least consistent than bow knight randomly switching from swords to lances. Again, it just seems more like a "flavor change" than a "balance change". I never met anyone legitimately saying "oh gee, Bow Knight would be so much better if it required C Swords rather than C Lances". The class requiring Lances doesn't hurt it. And I don't personally buy the proposed "Assassin-to-Bow Knight pipeline", because generally speaking, I'm not putting my Bow specialists into Assassin (a class with no Bowfaire nor Bowrange skill) to begin with. It was always a "Sword specialist who trained Bows on the side" class. 2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: This is why I might favour a second prowess skill as a solution to weaponbreaker+ over say Hit +20, which is not only less effective at the same job (though more effective at other jobs) but actually requires a potentially significant detour. So, I can understand the sentiment you're putting out there. And I definitely understand - at least hypothetically - the desire for split prowesses on certain units. I won't deny that I've done so in the past, and they worked... fine. But at this point, I think I'm just so "min-max-pilled" that the notion is unappealing, on its face. Like, Axe Prowess, Lancebreaker, Hit +20, Death Blow, and Strength +2 can all go together into the same attack. If I sub in Lance Prowess for one of them, then my unit's performance, when using an Axe, becomes strictly worse. It becomes better when using a Lance, sure, but why would I use a Lance on an Axe build? If it's for something like Swift Strikes or Vengeance, then I'm better served running a Lance-build, to give the combat art as strong a performance as possible. That's not to say I'll never train in two weapon types. I did so on Fortress Knight Raphael, learning both Lances and Axes. But I swapped the "build" between chapters. For chapter 13, for instance, the Lance build made the most sense. But in later maps, without so many Swordies, I'd run Axes instead. This meant swapping out skills, inventory, and combat arts between maps. ...Yes, I've wasted far too much of my life on combat prep screens. 2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Yeah I definitely agree with this, I think Manuela is a unit who can be safely buffed in a few ways. I kinda like what they're going for with her: a hybrid character who can do well in both physical, magical, or hybrid builds, but without the raw strength/magic to dominate at at one of them. The biggest problem though, is that starting at E reason, E authority, E axes is a hard hole to climb out of. Honestly, I would probably swap her Reason bane for a boon (she's Dorothea's mentor, I kinda like Dorothea inheriting her own boons from Manuela) and getting easier access to Mage and Fiendish Blow alone would do wonders for her. She already has quite a different stat build from Dorothea (and Hanneman for that matter), so I wouldn't worry about her feeling too similar. Yeah, that would be a big improvement. Woe be to those units who have a Reason bane, yet learn interesting spells! Their life is but suffering. 2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Not even a top three skill for intermediate masteries imo! Interesting. See, even if Hit +20 is never the best mastery skill on a given unit, I almost always see it as a "top 3 mastery". Like, for a physical PP attacker, I'll run "Death Blow, Strength +2, Hit +20". On a physical tank, it's "HP +5, Def +2, Hit +20". It's theoretically equally useful on magical builds, but in practice, very few Mages enjoy being put through the no-spells Archer class. Are the skills you put above it the three Blows? Death, Fiendish, and Darting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenticular Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 14 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Yes. Do you think they are mutually exclusive? I don't. Of course it's born from my ideas how it should be, but not uploading it for community is just such a waste. Even if a single person used and enjoy it, it would be worth uploading, don't you think? Feedback may have been a poor choice of word, think of it like an invitation to discussion. This is going to get a little bit philosophical, so feel free to skip this bit if you don't want to hear my pontificating. I would probably not go so far as to say that they are mutually exclusive goals, but I do think that they are at crossed purposes. And I also don't think it's a waste to make something just for yourself. If you put effort into something, make a thing for yourself, and then you get joy from the thing that you've made, then I think that's a great use of your time. I do think there's a world of difference between things made for oneself and things made for wider consumption. And I say that from the perspectives of both a creator and a consumer. As a creator, I am always conscious of who I'm making something for. If I'm making something only for myself, then I can be as self-indulgent as I want to be, I can tailor things specifically to my own tastes, and I can cut corners for things that aren't as important to me. But if I'm making for other people, then I figure there's something of a duty of care to the implied covenant between creator and consumer. It's on me to at least try to create something that other people will enjoy. If someone is giving me enough of their time to actually read/watch/play/use something that I have made, then I want to repay that trust and that time investment by actually giving that person something they'll enjoy. Part of this is just basic quality control (spellcheck my writing, comment my code, etc.) but part of it is being aware that my tastes are not universal. Now, obviously, you can't please all the people all the time, and it's folly to even try, but I think it's equally as foolish to never even try to please anyone. Then as a consumer, I do tend to get frustrated by things that other people have made that feel self-indulgent or as if the creator didn't give any thought to the people who would be consuming their creation. And that ranges across the spectrum from things I've bought from big corporations down to things that the smallest indie creators gave away for free. If we look at video game mods in particular, then one of the problems is that there are so many mods out there -- many of which range from "terrible" to "extremely niche" -- that it makes it a slog to wade through them all to find the ones that I would actually be interested in. First I look through the titles and narrow things down, then for the ones that seem potentially interesting I have to go in and read all the descriptions to narrow down further, and then for the ones I have left I have to install them and play them to see which ones actually fit my tastes. And overall, it ends up being more trouble than it's worth for me, so I end up very rarely modding games (despite the fact that I mostly game on PC, which is pretty much the most mod-friendly platform out there). So, personally, I don't look at things in terms of "if one person enjoys it then it's worth it sharing" so much as "what is the balance between people who will enjoy this and people who won't enjoy this and will waste their time before they realise they won't enjoy this?" Obviously, this is all just my perspective on things, and I don't want to bloviate too hard, but you did ask so I wanted to at least explain my way of looking at things. I'm not going to tell you not to go ahead and share your work, though. Partly because it would be pointless because why would you listen to me? But mostly just because it isn't my business. You do you, sincerely. 15 hours ago, Alef Zero said: How about the reverse - them working when above 50% HP? Although I suppose it would make them too strong. I agree that that would be too strong, yes. 15 hours ago, Alef Zero said: I feel like her amount of boons is balanced by her weak stats, but I really think that 5 boons is too much. Need to think about it a little. Base-game Ferdinand has 4 boons, 1 hiddent talent, and no banes, and I don't think that's excessive, nor is it something that is broadly considered to be a problem. 12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: TBH I do agree, in a rebalancing sense, that Edelgard doesn't need to be any stronger. She's already arguably the best unit in the game. That said, her strength and reputation certainly do not come from her personal classes, but rather, in spite of them. Yeah. I think that in an ideal world Edelgard-as-Emperor should be considerably stronger than she is, and Edelgard-as-not-Emperor should be a little weaker than she is. Actually achieving that is pretty tough, though. 12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Honestly a fan of most of these. One potential point of disagreement is Hit +20, which I think is the best skill in the game. Literally every combat unit - physical, magical, player-phase, enemy-phase - enjoys it. I'd suggest pulling it back, if possible to Hit +10. Maybe Hit +15, so it's halfway to Uncanny Blow. If that's not possible, maybe instead do Bow Range +1 as an equippable skill? That'll be good on anyone still using Bows, and "stacks" somewhat with the Bow classes. But the lowered Hit rates at long-range will prevent it from being OP. My personal experience (with all the usual YMMV caveats about play-style and the likes) is that Hit +20 is at least decent on everyone, but often not good enough for me to want to take the training time and/or the ability slot to equip it. I just find that most characters don't have a hard enough time with landing their hits for it to be worth it. That said, if you do want to nerf it a little bit, one option would be to move Uncanny Blow from Valkyrie to Archer, reduce it from +30 hit to +20, and rename it to Precision Blow. That way, it's still just as good for player phase builds, but not as universally applicable. This does make thematic sense to me as well; I don't see that Archers would be particularly talented at counter-attacking accurately. The big downside here is that it would be a nerf to vantage/wrath builds, which really do need to be hitting very reliably for the build to work. I don't really run that sort of build often enough to have a good sense for just how big a deal that would be. Of course, this would leave Valkyrie without a mastery skill, and maybe it could get equippable Black/Dark Range +1? 11 hours ago, Alef Zero said: Besides, once you unlock swift strikes, you are never using any other art - even ruined sky for Sylvain is weaker than this one. I don't think this is necessarily true. Yeah, once you have Swift Strikes, it is usually the best choice, but far from always. Against opponents with high def, one hit with high might can end up doing more damage than two hits with low might. And then when you also factor in effective damage (Ruined Sky, Knightkneeler, Monster Piercer), then that also promotes the use of other arts. If I've done the calculation right, Ruined Sky against a flying or dragon unit does 33 more damage than a single hit from Swift Strikes. Or to put it another way, they're equal when you're doing 66 damage, with Swift Strikes being better against lower def enemies and Ruined Sky against higher def enemies. 4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: I don't think this is totally fair. First of all, Sword/Lance Crit+ are pretty situational for most builds, and even the -breakers are often a battle-to-battle thing e.g. Axebreaker is only useful if you're planning to fight a bunch of axe-users. Having two prowess skills can be useful just to have an option to avoid enemy breakers (which are more potent than your own). I don't think sword+lance is great (except maybe on an evade-over-everything Ingrid), but I think some other combinations have definite uses. The classic one to me is Wyverns, who will run axes for immense power, but it's often nice to have another weapon type to more reliably hit mercs/swordmasters/heroes, or just give access to other combat arts. Which weapon may depend on whatever is convenient for the unit in question (lances for Ingrid, who can also use Burning Quake; bows for Cyril/Leonie, who have Point-Blank Volley, swords for Catherine, who starts at A rank and will likely wield Thunderbrand, etc.) I don't think it's necessary for the build, mind - one-weapon wyverns certainly work fine too, either axes or something else - but I think it's a valid choice, particularly for some units. The other nice thing about prowess skills is they're often quite low-cost to acquire; you don't need to master a class, you just need to train a skill some at some point in the game (and for later-joiners this training may even occur automatically). This is why I might favour a second prowess skill as a solution to weaponbreaker+ over say Hit +20, which is not only less effective at the same job (though more effective at other jobs) but actually requires a potentially significant detour. That's a fair point. I was probably a little too harsh on builds that use two weapons. They definitely do have some uses, like this. But I still think that they're pretty situational. At the very least, I don't think that they're a good paradigm to base an entire tier of classes around. Having one or two classes that specialise in weapon swapping might be an interesting option, though. Personally, my solution to enemy sword units with Axebreaker is just to attack them with a different unit instead. But there are definitely the usual sorts of trade-offs involved there that you get in specialist vs generalist situations. One other advantage that single-weapon units have is dealing with inventory. Inventory slots are also a limited resource, and if I'm having my axe unit carry a lance, then that's one inventory slot that they aren't using for an alternate axe, an alternate accessory, a healing item, a bow, or anything else that they might want to be carrying. 4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said: Yeah I definitely agree with this, I think Manuela is a unit who can be safely buffed in a few ways. I kinda like what they're going for with her: a hybrid character who can do well in both physical, magical, or hybrid builds, but without the raw strength/magic to dominate at at one of them. The biggest problem though, is that starting at E reason, E authority, E axes is a hard hole to climb out of. Honestly, I would probably swap her Reason bane for a boon (she's Dorothea's mentor, I kinda like Dorothea inheriting her own boons from Manuela) and getting easier access to Mage and Fiendish Blow alone would do wonders for her. She already has quite a different stat build from Dorothea (and Hanneman for that matter), so I wouldn't worry about her feeling too similar. Reason boon would definitely help her out a lot. And I thinkit would also fit her personality just fine. Yes, she's a drunkard and a hot-head, but she's also a doctor and a teacher and generally an intelligent woman. Having easier access to all sorts of magic classes would be a game-changer for her. Though also, just the proposed change to give magic access to Flacon Knights would also help her out a lot. Falcon Knight is already one of her better classes, IMO, and letting her throw out an occasional Warp (and even more occasional Heal, Ward, and Silence) as well would be a pretty big buff. 1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Then we're definitely moving beyond "rebalance" patch territory. Which, if that's what you wanna do, then fine I guess. It's just not what you originally advertised. Yeah, I think this ties back into what I was trying to say at the top of this post, except that you're much more succinct than I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Holy Elf Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 13 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: But at this point, I think I'm just so "min-max-pilled" that the notion is unappealing, on its face. Like, Axe Prowess, Lancebreaker, Hit +20, Death Blow, and Strength +2 can all go together into the same attack. If I sub in Lance Prowess for one of them, then my unit's performance, when using an Axe, becomes strictly worse. It becomes better when using a Lance, sure, but why would I use a Lance on an Axe build? If it's for something like Swift Strikes or Vengeance, then I'm better served running a Lance-build, to give the combat art as strong a performance as possible. I'd argue min-max-pilling is a trap in some cases (I often find having units able to do more things makes it easier for me to get out of tough situations in this game, because different situations call for different things), but that's a broader philosophical point. Let's go with your example: already, some of those skills are not actually helping on any given attack. Lancebreaker only does anything if you're attacking lance-users; trading it out for Lance Prowess is essentially trading performance against enemy lance-users for better performance against enemies with Axebreaker+. And even the stat skills aren't actually always relevant. In principle one could look at the map and determine if Str+2 is useful against the arrayed enemies; if there are two enemies it actually helps secure KOs against but five enemies with Axebreaker+, Lance Prowess is most likely the better choice. That said there are certainly downsides to having two prowess skills and I want to emphasize that I often use builds with just one, too; probably even more often than not. 12 hours ago, lenticular said: That's a fair point. I was probably a little too harsh on builds that use two weapons. They definitely do have some uses, like this. But I still think that they're pretty situational. At the very least, I don't think that they're a good paradigm to base an entire tier of classes around. Having one or two classes that specialise in weapon swapping might be an interesting option, though. I do agree that a class probably shouldn't be only balanced around using two weapons. In my mind a class with two -faire skills should be usable and have a niche even if you only plan to use one of the two weapons. Mortal Savant (while it could probably still use a slight buff) at its core it already works for units who can't benefit from Black Tomefaire (either Lysithea, or a sword-focused unit who wants access to white magic utility) and perhaps even units who don't plan to make use of Swordfaire (it has +1 move on Gremory and requires less training than Dark Knight especially for recruited Dorothea/Marianne who get some sword training for free). But it's obviously at its best for units planning to make use of both (a sword/magic user who does their best damage at range 1 with swords but still uses black magic to attack at range 2+). 14 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Interesting. See, even if Hit +20 is never the best mastery skill on a given unit, I almost always see it as a "top 3 mastery". Like, for a physical PP attacker, I'll run "Death Blow, Strength +2, Hit +20". On a physical tank, it's "HP +5, Def +2, Hit +20". It's theoretically equally useful on magical builds, but in practice, very few Mages enjoy being put through the no-spells Archer class. Are the skills you put above it the three Blows? Death, Fiendish, and Darting? Yep. In my mind, those three skills greatly change the number of enemies a given unit can one-round, so they get top billing in my eyes. Hit+20's value is murkier since it gets into reliability; it doesn't let you do anything you couldn't before, it just lets you do it more reliably, and how valuable that is varies a lot by type of playthrough and playstyle. I basically second lenticular's comments here. Beyond that, I suppose what it means by a top three mastery. I would tend to consider accession time for this, and that definitely puts it outside the top three for most. For female physical units, Death Blow+Darting Blow are better, and getting a third intermediate mastery is a hard sell for me. Mages, as you mentioned, just don't want to go through no-spells archer. Swift Strikes users include one unit who has a bow bane, one who already has innate Hit+15, and one who doesn't waste time on a backtrack. There are certainly some for whom I'd agree that it is (as I mentioned, e.g. units with Bow Range+ and units who are relying on Vantage), so it's still pretty good, but I think there are a lot for whom it isn't, or for whom the payoff does not justify the 50 actions in archer and possibly some bow training I might otherwise not do. 14 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Yes, I've wasted far too much of my life on combat prep screens. I feel this comment in the very depths of my soul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alef Zero Posted May 14 Author Share Posted May 14 (edited) Alright, time for some updates: Skills: new mastery skill for lord - Unity (hit/avo/crit +20 when unit adjacent to an ally) new mastery skill for dark bishop - umbral shield (def +5 res + 10 when unit used wait command) all blow skills reduced to +4 (aside from armored and warding, which stay at +6, as their usage is more niche) all defiant skills repurposed as valiant skills - +6 to a stat as long as unit is at 75% hp or above (valiant avo and crit grant +20). This may seem powerful, but all defiant skills were gained via master classes (save for hero), so they should be worth it Classes: rearranged masteries for intermediate classes: mercenary - darting blow (this class needs a good mastery, otherwise it's worse than thief. hope I don't break a tradition too much) thief - desperation (no idea why a skill that requires speed for doubling to even activate was given to the second slowest intermediate class) pegasus - avo +10 (fits more with the class theme) cavalier - vantage changed skill focus of armored/fortress knight from axe to lance. in base game, there are 3 advanced classes that use axes (warrior, wyvern and fortress) while only one with lances (paladin), and armored units have always (?) used lances first. In fact, I feel like it was the intention from the beginning, as armored use the same animation for swords and axes, while lance animations are unique. Far-fetched theory but works for me. Axes are still worth using for their sheer power. changed mortal savant skill from darting blow to dark tomefaire. I didn't know what other skill to give him, and having at least one dark tomefaire feels nice. changed monk's mastery from magic+2 to resistance+2. mag+2 is instead acquired by reason C rank (previously fire passive was gained in that rank, but it does not work when equiped, must be hardcoded). faith C rank grants miracle cannot decide if great lord should be ginve swordfaire or lance avo +20. swordfaire fit class better in my view, but avo would make the class stronger, greatly synergizes with Dimi's personal and makes use of a skill that's not used anywhere else. I will probably toss a coin at this rate. Magic system: I've managed to give all spells some identity: wind spells are effective against fliers (wind and gale double, while excalibur has triple), and low weight, but also low power thunder spells have increased range (3 to be exact) and 100% accuracy, but cannot double fire spells have no special property, but have the highest power and decent accuracy ice spells have high crit and lower movement (blizzard seal movement, fimbul locks in place) but have low accuracy and high weight holy spells, aside from nosferatu, are effective against monsters (abraxas and aura double, seraphim triple), but have no crit and sligtly lower might than in the base game. nosferatu has weight of 4, might of 1 i didn't touch dark spells, as I think they are strong enough. miasma got 1 more might tho Difficulty: raised enemy levels for hard mode, they are now 2 levels behind maddening revampted enemy skills for both hard and maddening - all enemies have their classes' matery skills (warrior has death blow, wrath and strength+2). On maddening, some enemies get additional skills (hero get vantage and desperation) I think about lowering exp gained on hard (but not as much aa on maddening) - despite all these changed I still plow through enemies with no issue on ng. This isn't how it's supposed to be. Side note - what are the changes that make maddening so hard? Enemies are now only 2 levels below maddening, have many new skills and gain the same boosts from my class changes. And yet, maddening is truly maddening, while I'm plowing through hard no problem. What am I missing? Additionally, Seteth's and Flayn's color scheme changed from pink/white to green - their class outfits now fit their hair. I think the mod is close to being finished, I'm mostly wondering about the difficulty now. Edited May 14 by Alef Zero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted Wednesday at 04:49 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 04:49 AM On 5/5/2024 at 2:38 AM, lenticular said: That said, if you do want to nerf it a little bit, one option would be to move Uncanny Blow from Valkyrie to Archer, reduce it from +30 hit to +20, and rename it to Precision Blow. That way, it's still just as good for player phase builds, but not as universally applicable. This does make thematic sense to me as well; I don't see that Archers would be particularly talented at counter-attacking accurately. The big downside here is that it would be a nerf to vantage/wrath builds, which really do need to be hitting very reliably for the build to work. I don't really run that sort of build often enough to have a good sense for just how big a deal that would be. Of course, this would leave Valkyrie without a mastery skill, and maybe it could get equippable Black/Dark Range +1? Interesting approach. Could be a bit more balanced. Although the conventional wisdom seems to be "Hit +20 is good, but not broken, so there's no need to nerf it." So I'm not gonna push it. In this hypothetical, though, maybe Valkyrie could give "Dark Magic Crit +10", which is so far unused? It'd be a modest buff on Lysithea and Hapi. While for other units... well, being in Valkyrie is its own reward, is it not? I actually kinda like the existing dynamic between Uncanny Blow and Hit +20. The former is stronger on player-phase builds, while the latter is better for units who care about enemy phase. Valkyrie is easy for (female) Mages to reach and master - the kind of units who don't want to spend much time in the spell-free Archer class. A unit with one probably isn't going to bother getting the other (something something Deadeye). On 5/5/2024 at 3:47 PM, Dark Holy Elf said: I'd argue min-max-pilling is a trap in some cases (I often find having units able to do more things makes it easier for me to get out of tough situations in this game, because different situations call for different things), but that's a broader philosophical point. Probably, haha. On 5/5/2024 at 3:47 PM, Dark Holy Elf said: Let's go with your example: already, some of those skills are not actually helping on any given attack. Lancebreaker only does anything if you're attacking lance-users; trading it out for Lance Prowess is essentially trading performance against enemy lance-users for better performance against enemies with Axebreaker+. And even the stat skills aren't actually always relevant. In principle one could look at the map and determine if Str+2 is useful against the arrayed enemies; if there are two enemies it actually helps secure KOs against but five enemies with Axebreaker+, Lance Prowess is most likely the better choice. I agree looking at the map can help inform an individualized approach. Wish there were a way to save my "builds" - a certain combination of skills, combat arts, and inventory - to a single button press. A sort of "preps speed dial", if you will. Anyway, my usual "refutation" of this line would be "well I'm not gonna be using Axeman McGee against the Axebreaker enemies, I'm sending Swordbreaker Sally instead". If I were playing with a more limited team, or even a solo run, then I could see more of a case here. Moreover, even if I have the skill space... do I have the inventory space? How about combat arts? Like, usually, I'll have a unit carrying a Vulnerary (they'll never drink it, it's just for show) and some sort of equippable (Shield, Ring, Staff, whichever). So, I have four weapon slots left. Axeman McGee will come into battle with his: - Training Axe, when I need a light and accurate weapon that won't weigh him down - Hand Axe, which is barely better than an Iron Bow thanks to Axefaire and Axe Prowess, also offers EP - Silver Axe of Zoltankavasara, a costlier, high-Might weapon for particularly tough foes - "Wild Card", an Axe with some neat aspect (effective damage, brave, killer) that could come in handy on this particular map - Steel Axe, which is sonething rather durable and cheap for spamming combat arts with And... yep, my slots are all full, and then some. Each weapon above has its own use case, and that's before adding a second weapon type to my inventory. If I try to throw that in, then I have some tough decisions to make. Moreover, there's combat arts. I'll just start out by saying that I really like the Repositional arts. I tend to have each unit in my army master one Beginner class. Two, on occasion. So most of my units will have a Repositional on hand, leaving them with two combat arts. If Axeman McGee tries to add Lances to his repertoire, then all of a sudden, Smash, Lightning Axe, and Tempest Lance are fighting for two slots between them. And as he learns more and more arts - masteries excepted - then the internal struggle just turns fiercer. I could have one Lance art and one Axe art, sure. But then my options with each weapon type will feel very limited. As opposed to, say, being able to choose between two arts for every weapon in my inventory. This has been quite the tangent, I kniw, but that's where my neuroses are making me go. I think it just comes down to different playstyles and priorities between us. On 5/14/2024 at 9:40 AM, Alef Zero said: And yet, maddening is truly maddening, while I'm plowing through hard no problem. What am I missing? Uh, same-turn reinforcements? Lowered EXP gain? Also less rank increase from tutoring? Not really sure which of the above might be doing it. On 5/14/2024 at 9:40 AM, Alef Zero said: Additionally, Seteth's and Flayn's color scheme changed from pink/white to green - their class outfits now fit their hair. Finally, Seteth's overpowered uniform has been nerfed. Jokes aside, while I do think this project has taken some turns, I hope it's proving a fun endeavor for you! There've been a lot of neat ideas raised within the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alef Zero Posted Wednesday at 07:47 AM Author Share Posted Wednesday at 07:47 AM 2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Finally, Seteth's overpowered uniform has been nerfed. Jokes aside, while I do think this project has taken some turns, I hope it's proving a fun endeavor for you! There've been a lot of neat ideas raised within the thread. Yup. At first, I was going to just rebalance classes and maybe change Dimitri's talents, as he was really unappreciated by devs. And I ended up even modifying some maps (what you say about Edelgard dropping sword of seiros during battle in gronder? neat). Still, it was a great joy working on it and being able to express my thoughs about the game after so many hours of playing the original of creating theories how I would fix things. It's a good feeling that I finally was able to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alef Zero Posted Wednesday at 07:50 AM Author Share Posted Wednesday at 07:50 AM The mod is released: https://gamebanana.com/mods/515994 Thanks for the discussion, it was entertaining and helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Holy Elf Posted Wednesday at 02:36 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 02:36 PM Congrats on finishing it! I may check it out some day in the distant future if I ever start playing this game primarily by emulation instead of on the Switch. 9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Anyway, my usual "refutation" of this line would be "well I'm not gonna be using Axeman McGee against the Axebreaker enemies, I'm sending Swordbreaker Sally instead". This is of course very fair, and it's an excellent point that you don't need everyone to do everything. That said, I do think if everyone is straitjacketed into a single role it can become limiting sometimes. Sometimes there are three heroes coming at you at once and it's nice if at least one of your axe-users has an answer to them. This is more true the more axe-users you have... which is certainly something that can occur on teams considering how good Wyvern is. Your point about inventory and combat art slots is also correct, and I agree with basically ally of it (repositionals do rule, the only time I'll have a unit without one is if they join after Chapter 5 pretty much). That said, going from Helm Splitter + Smash to Helm Splitter + Knightkneeler/Curved Shot is a lateral choice; the unit will become worse at some things but better than others. And for your inventory points, some of the weapons you mention switch out easily. If I'm running bows then I might trade out the Hand Axe; if I'm running lances I might trade out the steel weapon or the training one. etc. (Perhaps the only major difference is I don't usually run vulneraries on units past the earlygame, so that does at least give me five weapon slots. My reason is precisely what you mention: I don't normally end up using them. Of course, there is the odd map where someone will hold a key of some sort, and I have occasionally run double accessory builds on physical units, so certainly there are rare cases where I am down to four weapons.) On my current run (which has some randomized class builds so not a perfect analogy to normal play) I ended up with four axe-users, and I've been happy that some of them can do other things. One joined with a high lance rank so Knightkneeler with a relic lance has let me devote one combat art slot and one inventory slot in order to troubleshoot axebreaker enemies and mounted enemies. One has Curved Shot with a Steel Bow+ and high strength which is enough to one-shot pegasus knights (and also provides accurate ranged chip against anything else). And one (Yuri) has Windsweep which troubleshoots both axebreaker enemies and anyone with particulalry mean counters, and while this arguably doesn't need Sword Prowess (which only offers 5-10 hit), I certainly think it has been worth the combat art and inventory slot. One could counter with "well why not have Yuri be a pure sword wyvern?" (etc.) and that's certainly fair. However, on anyone with Axefaire, axes are gonna be so far ahead on raw power that I don't ever want to go without them. A Silver Axe+ or similar has 22 effective might; no sword or bow is coming close to that. 9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: This has been quite the tangent, I kniw, but that's where my neuroses are making me go. I think it just comes down to different playstyles and priorities between us. It's an interesting tangent, thanks for sharing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenticular Posted Wednesday at 04:19 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 04:19 PM 1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said: This is of course very fair, and it's an excellent point that you don't need everyone to do everything. That said, I do think if everyone is straitjacketed into a single role it can become limiting sometimes. Sometimes there are three heroes coming at you at once and it's nice if at least one of your axe-users has an answer to them. This is more true the more axe-users you have... which is certainly something that can occur on teams considering how good Wyvern is. I think this is an insightful observation. I know that I rarely have a lot of wyverns on my team, probably averaging somewhere between one and two on a typical run. This isn't because I think that this is optimal, but just because I have more fun using a lot of different classes, but it certainly makes sense that my play-style has then evolved around this choice. Because I use more classes, I'm more likely to have a unit that is well suited to each job, so I'm going to need generalist builds less, so I'm going to get less value from things like dual-faire classes. Whereas I can definitely see that for people who tend more towards the "oops, all wyverns" style of play would definitely want to have more flexibility of builds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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