Do you find online frustrating?

[Rodykitty]

Wrong. It's not possible through RNG's though. It's only possible through NG's.

Well, whatever is possible through RNG abuse, I consider legit.

Wrong. No RNG can produce 100% growths given 5% growths. that's not RNG'ing, that's NG'ing.

What? I am saying that hacking gives you crap like Maph and stuff that shouldn't be possible to obtain even with exploiting the game.

Wrong. MK's glitch is an equally available glitch to ALL players, without hacking at all. It's the exact same as building an invincible team with impossible defence and resistance, it simply comes down to who gets the first hit, or who gets the throne first. Yet MK's glitch is still banned.

They'll only be invincible to players that don't have well built teams. If you so want to play against people like that, keep both kinds of teams handy. But due to the way weapons work, assuming that both teams are RNG abused and put at the highest potential, regardless of whether it maxes everything or not, then no team is invincible.

Simple as that. HOWEVER if you say "RNG abusing is allowed" then you immediately ALLOW hacking, which means you allow a max EVERYTHING team, which even edward did not do.

When I say RNG abuse, I've been talking about what Edward has been doing this whole time. If anyone can get stats like his, then I am perfectly okay with it. It's a legit technique.

therefore ending up with the "all MK scenario", but for some reason still allowing MK's infinite cape because "everyone can use it".

But there is nothing as profound as MK's dimensional cape glitch in the game, so that doesn't matter.

You do know how much of a role forged weapons play online, don't you?

Absolutely. Forged weapons are the reason why teams are not going to be invincible.

Wrong. You've explicitly DELETED all bad variables from the RAM every time they appear. For someone so preachy on how code works, you're not being very knowledgeable.

One doesn't delete the variables on RAM on purpose. RAM by its nature is only temporary. The only way for variables and data to not get deleted is if they are stored, and the only time the game does this is when you save your game or edit the options. Edited January 3, 2009 by FE3 Player

[slax]

my whole reply to the above post can be summed up with "two horsemen with max resistence is impossible and broken"

[Dr. Tarrasque]

my whole reply to the above post can be summed up with "two horsemen with max resistence is impossible and broken"

That's only the case if the player is using Apotrope. That being said, Forged weapons with critical hit rates would be the solution there... not a very efficient one maybe but still a solution.

Also, you can attack the horsemen directly for no counter-attack damage to you if he's using a Bow. Indirect if he's using a Sword that isn't Levin Sword. A high RES unit or Longbow Sniper if he's using Levin Sword obviously.

Point is, that's not broken.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Levin

[Sylvan]

This is not comparable to the banning of stalling techniques.

Then should I point you to the SBR discussion about banning MK even after his cape is banned.

- No one single class will dominate. The game will be more imbalanced, but surely several classes should still be playable

Why? Their caps are crap, they have no stand out traits, and any character can be maxed. If this was true, hackers would win all the time. The reason they don't win is because they choose to mas crap classes. If you fought a hacked team of all horsemen with forged brave bows+swords then your raped.

- No stalling is involved that prevents the player from being able to do anything

I never said stalling. I said broken.

- This method doesn't require an external cheat device

I never said it did.

- Nothing is being brought into the game that isn't obtainable in the story mode

I never said anything to do with that.

That's only the case if the player is using Apotrope. That being said, Forged weapons with critical hit rates would be the solution there... not a very efficient one maybe but still a solution.

Ahh, problem here is brave>killer. Even forged. 30 luck will rape crit rates to nothing. Both teams have max supports, so that negates, (since any character can be maxes, it doesn't matter who you use in what class.) 30 luck -15 (30skl/2) means best, 35% crit (1 hit because they maxed speed). That's 35% to take down an entire party. A berserker can get 45%, but you can only get 2 berserkers, nowhere near enough to take down an entire party.

Plus, someone with crit, needs brave in reserve in case of dazzle. This takes up weapon slots. You can't have every super-effective item in your hold, because you still should have keys and healing. Even then, the player can just change cards.

Sinpers would still be useable, as they are the only ones that can use a longbow. but still, over 50% of classes become unusable.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I thought it was obvious that I meant to say "Forged Brave weapon with Critical" since those are the kind of weapons you're gonna have to use if you wanna stand a chance against overpowered units. My bad.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Levin

[Sylvan]

Forged brave with crit will give you a 15% crit rate. Then the battle just relies on pure blind luck as to who is the winner. There is no skill in that. The enemy would simply choose Apotrope, because to win with a 15% crit (even on x2 hits, 30% crit) is just random chance. Random chance that equally applies to them, as they can just as easily make their weapons have identical crit rates. Then, the player without Apotrope will be at the disadvantage, since Apotrope only works one-way. So then, naturally, they choose dazzle and voila, the whole situation is negated.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Forged brave with crit will give you a 15% crit rate. Then the battle just relies on pure blind luck as to who is the winner. There is no skill in that. The enemy would simply choose Apotrope, because to win with a 15% crit (even on x2 hits, 30% crit) is just random chance. Random chance that equally applies to them, as they can just as easily make their weapons have identical crit rates. Then, the player without Apotrope will be at the disadvantage, since Apotrope only works one-way. So then, naturally, they choose dazzle and voila, the whole situation is negated.

*This is assuming we're still talking about the Horseman scenario*

If Dazzle's in, Apotrope is out and therefore, Forged Ridersbane and Pole Axes are in. If both are in, you're bound to have a difficult time then.

[Rodykitty]

Then should I point you to the SBR discussion about banning MK even after his cape is banned.

MK never got banned.

I never said stalling. I said broken.

There is a clear difference between broken and overpowered. You are confusing the two.

Why? Their caps are crap, they have no stand out traits, and any character can be maxed.

Horsemen caps are just as crappy as Swordmasters. In fact, they're almost the same. The only difference is in that Horsemen get bows and a horse.

Snipers also get caps easily comparable to Horsemen and Swordmasters, and they get Longbows to use in fog of war, and a crit bonus on top of that.

Generals get lances, thus WTA against Swordmasters in negating weapon damage bonus they get, and a high Res General would actually suck less in a high stat environment than in a normal one, because he won't get as raped by the Levin Sword as easily. I did calculations recently when considering a General based team to counter swordmasters, and they can certainly survive Brave Weapons, and can take advantage of Apotrope.

Warriors, like you mentioned earlier are also usable.

Beserker stat caps will actually see light of day.

Sages, obviously, are still going to see play.

I will agree that Heroes and flyers will be gimped by this, but I feel they already are since bow users can take out flyers anyway, and Swordmasters can reach capped speed even without RNG abuse.

But even with the gimped classes taken into account, several classes should still be playable.

Edited January 3, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Sylvan]

Case: Horseman vs horseman:

But both players have a card. If 1 has Apotrope, then crits are random and apply equally to both parties. So, both parties will use Apotrope, to bring them up to par. They can't waste their card negating crits.

Case: Horseman vs other:

Horseman uses Apotrope. Can critical at a range and hit more times, effectively doubling crit rates. This either forces the other player to use dazzle, or gives the horsemen the advantage.

Other point: All lance users will get quad hit.

Snipers, Berserkers, horsemen and *maybe* mages. Those are the only useful teams. Everyone else has speed that is too low, so they get quad hit. Making them unwanted. Swordmasters can't use bows, and won't do damage with a levin sword (not compared to a brave bow). Their 10% accuracy bonus means nothing as forged 50% accuracy makes it obsolete. So they loose out to horsemen.

MK never got banned.

Because you can learn new things in brawl. You can't in FE. Maxed stats are it. There are no ATs to be discovered. Characters can't have their metagame developed, because it doesn't exist.

Horsemen caps are just as crappy as Swordmasters. In fact, they're almost the same. The only difference is in that Horsemen get bows and a horse.

Brave bows mean horsemen rape at range. Swordmasters can't. Levin swords are negated by everyone's max res.

Snipers also get caps easily comparable to Horsemen and Swordmasters, and they get Longbows to use in fog of war, and a crit bonus on top of that.

Snipers are usable.

Generals get lances, thus WTA against Swordmasters in negating weapon damage bonus they get, and a high Res General would actually suck less in a high stat environment than in a normal one, because he won't get as raped by the Levin Sword as easily. I did calculations recently when considering a General based team to counter swordmasters, and they can certainly survive Brave Weapons, and can take advantage of Apotrope.

Nup. Generals can be quad hit. From a range or at close. Their move sucks, so they need a scout. Plus, Paladins have higher speed (not enough to stop them being quad hit, so they are unusable to) higher move and same def generals are worse versions of paladins, and paladins are unusable.

Warriors, like you mentioned earlier are also usable.

nup. They get quad hit.

Beserker stat caps will actually see light of day.

Yes, berserks are usable.

Sages, obviously, are still going to see play.

only for staves. Everyone else has max res, and sages won't hit twice

I will agree that Heroes and flyers will be gimped by this, but I feel they already are since bow users can take out flyers anyway, and Swordmasters can reach capped speed even without RNG abuse.

Normally Swordmasters can't cap res, so mages take them down. RNG abuse they can.

But even with the gimped classes taken into account, several classes should still be playable.

Like? having 26 or less speed means you will get quad hit from a brave weapon. You need double the def and double the str to even compare. The highest def cap is 30, which is only 30% more than a hosreman, meaning it's not worth the extra hits they take. Manaketes can't attack at a range.

With all max stats, only a select few units become usable.

[Rodykitty]

Brave bows mean horsemen rape at range. Swordmasters can't. Levin swords are negated by everyone's max res.

Never once did I say Swordmasters were better. I said they were still going to be usable even in this type of game play, if one prefers to use them out of preference.

Nup. Generals can be quad hit. From a range or at close.

But the only character that will actually one round a General is going to be a Beserker, and that class likely has counters of its own. It'll take at least two characters from the aformented overpowered class to take them down.

Does this make the General good? Not really. Does it make him usable? Definitely.

nup. They get quad hit.

See above about what I say about Generals.

Normally Swordmasters can't cap res, so mages take them down. RNG abuse they can.

I was talking about Swordmasters vs. Heroes in that particular matchup.

[Sylvan]

Never once did I say Swordmasters were better. I said they were still going to be usable even in this type of game play, if one prefers to use them out of preference.

You didn't say it I did. My point is, in the highest level of competitive play (Which you were arguing) anyone who chooses swordmasters is strictly worse off than someone who chooses horsemen. Ok, you prefer swordmasters. Doesn't mean you'll win. Horsemen have the advantage, thus will win more, thus in competitive play, are favoured. Thus, making swordmasters unusable. If there is a unit that is STRICLY better, then that's that. Using a weaker unit may be preference, but it's not smart competitive play.

But the only character that will actually one round a General is going to be a Beserker, and that class likely has counters of its own. It'll take at least two characters from the aformented overpowered class to take them down.

Does this make the General good? Not really. Does it make him usable? Definitely.

Imagine this, You use your team of generals, I use my team of berserkers. Ok, so I can only have two berserkers. But bam. Two of your units die, none of mine die. I fortify/restore and recover health. Then I kill another unit with my two horsemen. Instantly, the game is decided. That's unsuable. You can just as easily replace the gneral with a berserker, and not die. So that is favoured. So generals become useless.

See above about what I say about Generals.

See above what I said in response. They have the same flaw, they can still be quad hit. Even by berserkers.

was talking about Swordmasters vs. Heroes in that particular matchup.

Both swordmasters are heros fall in preferance to horsemen, so therefore, any team with heroes or swordmasters can be made better with horsemen

[Rodykitty]

You didn't say it I did. My point is, in the highest level of competitive play (Which you were arguing) anyone who chooses swordmasters is strictly worse off than someone who chooses horsemen. Ok, you prefer swordmasters. Doesn't mean you'll win. Horsemen have the advantage, thus will win more, thus in competitive play, are favoured. Thus, making swordmasters unusable. If there is a unit that is STRICLY better, then that's that. Using a weaker unit may be preference, but it's not smart competitive play.

This is true, but if using weaker classes and still being able to win is a possibility, then that should still allow people to be flexible in class choice and still play competitively. Is it balanced? No. Is the gap huge? Probably not.

Imagine this, You use your team of generals, I use my team of berserkers. Ok, so I can only have two berserkers. But bam. Two of your units die, none of mine die. I fortify/restore and recover health. Then I kill another unit with my two horsemen. Instantly, the game is decided. That's unsuable. You can just as easily replace the gneral with a berserker, and not die. So that is favoured. So generals become useless.

Then I'll have to make a team that counters Beserkers, and you'll have to make a team that counters that team.

Both swordmasters are heros fall in preferance to horsemen, so therefore, any team with heroes or swordmasters can be made better with horsemen

You keep missing the point. I am saying that Heroes are already at a disadvantage even in non-RNG abused play. Their being gimped in RNG play is not really that new in this case.

But other classes I list will at least be able to have some use.

What I am trying to get at is, people RNG abusing units is not going to ruin multi-player.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Imagine this, You use your team of generals, I use my team of berserkers. Ok, so I can only have two berserkers. But bam. Two of your units die, none of mine die. I fortify/restore and recover health. Then I kill another unit with my two horsemen. Instantly, the game is decided. That's unsuable. You can just as easily replace the gneral with a berserker, and not die. So that is favoured. So generals become useless.

It's possible to win in that scenario, of course, the Generals would require use of Terrain with +1 DEF. This assuming that the stats playing a role in this scenario are maxed btw.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Levin

[Sylvan]

This is true, but if using weaker classes and still being able to win is a possibility, then that should still allow people to be flexible in class choice and still play competitively. Is it balanced? No. Is the gap huge? Probably not.

Is it a huge gap? Yes. It's like going from a 30-70 match to a 95-5 match. Sure, you can still win the second one. Is it going to happen? No.

then I'll have to make a team that counters Beserkers, and you'll have to make a team that counters that team.

Good in theory. But one problem. How exactly do you propose to do this? No using Snipers, Berserkser Horsemen or Swordmasters. I can guarantee, any team you list can be made better with those three.

You keep missing the point. I am saying that Heroes are already at a disadvantage even in non-RNG abused play. Their being gimped in RNG play is not really that new in this case.

But other classes I list will at least be able to have some use.

Sedgar can be a hero. Sedgar has good growths. Hence Hero is usable. Sedgar's growths make up for the shortcomings of the class, because not every stat is maxed. non-RNG abused classes are not subject to the same criteria, as they are not all homogeneous. Even then, Sedgar might make a good hero, but the whitewings make good swordmasters. But nothing stops you using both sedgar and the whitewings together. Thus, both classes are usable. *technically* Horsemen still beat swordmasters in non-rng abused files. But any actual unit that becomes a horseman has much worse growths than the swordmaster counterpart. So, swordmasters are again, still usable since a team of 100% swordmasters is possible. Where as a team of 100% horsemen is not. Same for berserkers. Maxing a berserker means not maxing another unit, so the game automatically balances due to the growth rates.

What I am trying to get at is, people RNG abusing units is not going to ruin multi-player.

Your posting in a topic that complains about hackers. And your honestly trying to tell me it won't ruin multi-player? Sorry, this topic wouldn't exist if people found fighting maxed characters fun and enthralling. Your telling everyone to go hack, and it'll become more fun. Because hacking gets the same result as RNG abuse. . . blah blah I said that before.

It's possible to win in that scenario, of course, the Generals would require use of Terrain with +1 DEF. This assuming that the stats playing a role in this scenario are maxed btw.

A Berserker deals 76 damage to a maxed general. It's not survivable in any situation. 19x4-terrain = 72. (Ignoring the weapon triangle advantage which would normally cancel this bonus anyway)

Edited January 3, 2009 by Sylvan

[Dr. Tarrasque]

A Berserker deals 76 damage to a maxed general. It's not survivable in any situation. 19x4-terrain = 72. (Ignoring the weapon triangle advantage which would normally cancel this bonus anyway)

Right, took only 3 hits into mind, silly me lol.

But yeah, winning after that scenario is impossible. Winning such a match from the beginning isn't.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Levin

[Sylvan]

Right, took only 3 hits into mind, silly me lol.

But yeah, winning after that scenario is impossible. Winning such a match from the beginning isn't.

It's not impossible to win with generals. But it's just sooooo much easier to without them. Replace the general with any other unit with > 26 speed and your team will be 100x better.

Honestly, saying you can win with generals against berserkers is like saying you can beat my current team, with a team of thieves. It's still possible. But it's just MUCH harder. There is a reason nobody uses thieves.

[Sek]

It's not impossible to win with generals. But it's just sooooo much easier to without them. Replace the general with any other unit with > 26 speed and your team will be 100x better.

Honestly, saying you can win with generals against berserkers is like saying you can beat my current team, with a team of thieves. It's still possible. But it's just MUCH harder. There is a reason nobody uses thieves.

Because you only get 2 thieves so you can't have a thief team?

[Sylvan]

Because you only get 2 thieves so you can't have a thief team?

You can only get 2 berserkers, doesn't stop people using them.

[Sek]

It's not impossible to win with generals. But it's just sooooo much easier to without them. Replace the general with any other unit with > 26 speed and your team will be 100x better.

Honestly, saying you can win with generals against berserkers is like saying you can beat my current team, with a team of thieves. It's still possible. But it's just MUCH harder. There is a reason nobody uses thieves.

[Tamara]

If getting four excellent horsemen is possible, you'd have an unstoppable team. Those units are extremely versatile. They can scout, kill (forged brave bow kills pretty much everything that can be doubled) or attack from the fog (long bow, to soften the units that can't be doubled). Add a healer and the team is pratically unstoppable. The enemy will have a hard time taking two down and even then the horsemen team will be extremely hard to stop. One can scout, the other one can kill.

The reson people don't do this is that it's very hard to get four horsemen with stats like that. I guess it wouold be possible, Wolf and Sedgar will get there with some luck/map save abusing and some stats boosts, but the other two? The reason why people don't have horseman with high magic and res, as well as max str, spd, def etc is because it should be impossible. That the growths are there (as in growths higher dan 0%) does not mean guaranteed high level-ups. Or is there some fantastic way to efficiently manipulate the RNG I don't know about?

In any case, if RNG-whored units with uber stats become the norm, I'll find another game to play. Last time I checked games were supposed to be fun. Spending countless hours to tediously gain some stats = NOT FUN.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Tamara

[Rodykitty]

The best answer would be to just stop playing with cards altogether. Horsemen having a weakness to Horseslayers and Poleaxes would immediately bring balance to the game. It's not like a lot of cards are that useful anyway besides the ones that happen to benefit Horsemen the most.

Or is there some fantastic way to efficiently manipulate the RNG I don't know about?

Map save abuse apparently is enough to obtain obscenely high stats, including Res (I'm assuming that training as a Dark Mage/Sorcerer was done to accomplish this).

Also, under these new conditions, Horsemen would be far from unstoppable. They only get 23 Defense, just low enough for most units to give them a beating. Like Levin pointed out earlier, they're always going to be capable of being attacked without counter attacking by either being locked to swords or bows, and the Levin Sword will end up crappy when everyone has 20+ Res, making them save to attack even when that is equipped.

And AFAIK, unless Serenes Forest's site is wrong, only Snipers get Longbows.

[Tamara]

I saw Horseman with a long bow once, but that team was beyond questionable in any case. Or he simpy renamed one of the bows and I didn't pay enough attention to the picture...

Map save abuse apparently is enough to obtain obscenely high stats, including Res (I'm assuming that training as a Dark Mage/Sorcerer was done to accomplish this).

The problem with that is that growths for magic and res are often quite low (20%-30%). You'd still need a lot of resetting to get the level-ups you want. You need characters with more than decent growth in all major area's and plenty of levels left to gain. I'm sure the peggies could do it with a lot of effort and patience, but I'm not too sure about most of the other characters.

[Rodykitty]

20-30% should be enough to abuse with. The goal is hitting 5% Str while still gaining other stats.

And Edward admitted he had a ton of time on his hands, so resetting is a definite possibility.

[Sylvan]

@ sek, When I said team of thieves, I meant a team with thieves in it. (a good team)

The best answer would be to just stop playing with cards altogether. Horsemen having a weakness to Horseslayers and Poleaxes would immediately bring balance to the game. It's not like a lot of cards are that useful anyway besides the ones that happen to benefit Horsemen the most

That's not the best answer. The best answer is to stop RNG abuse. Think about it. Lets say cards are banned. That means every attack of every character has a 15% crit rate. This just results in complete blind luck determining the outcome of matches. 15% by the number of attacks (especially with brave weps) will effectively mean a guaranteed crit per match. Since both players have homogeneous(identical) units, then the deciding fact is who gets crits and who doesn't. Skill is completely removed.

Also, under these new conditions, Horsemen would be far from unstoppable. They only get 23 Defense, just low enough for most units to give them a beating. Like Levin pointed out earlier, they're always going to be capable of being attacked without counter attacking by either being locked to swords or bows, and the Levin Sword will end up crappy when everyone has 20+ Res, making them save to attack even when that is equipped.

Under those conditions, it doesn't matter who is superior, because the match will just be blind luck. I've done crit teams before. It's 100% impossible to tell who will win when you fight equal teams.

Horsemen can't use longbows, I learnt that the hard way. I forged 3 longbows, only to find I couldn't use them >.>;;

EDIT:

I saw Horseman with a long bow once, but that team was beyond questionable in any case. Or he simpy renamed one of the bows and I didn't pay enough attention to the picture...

Just as a general observation, when you play "with anyone" forged names are not displayed. Like if you fight me and I have my Blazing Axe equipped, it will show Killer Axe on your screen. You'll still see the names of your own weapons, just not the names of other people's weapons. You'll only see the names of their weapons in "With Friends".

Edited January 3, 2009 by Sylvan

[Tamara]

Forged weapon names are displayed. Unless "Est's Bow" (it was Est's Bow, wasn't it?) is an actual item ;)