Creating Cameos for Mystery of the Emblem characters in Shadow Dragon

[Jotari]

Mystery of the Emblem sits in a weird place as far as sequels go. Usually a sequels follows an established work, something has been published and altering or changing the continuity of what already happened, what we call a retcon, is typically considered a bad thing. But Mystery of the Emblem, in both of the times its been made, has been part of a rebooted continuity. It has only existed in a context where the story its a sequel to has been worked on at the same time (thereabouts, they weren't quite sure they were going to make New Mystery until they finished Shadow Dragon, but I'm sure they had some feeling it was a possibility). Yet they've never really capitalized on this to actually integrate much Mystery content into Shadow Dragon. It's a strange case where making a bunch of retcons would actually be beneficial because you're rewriting the entire story anyway, but even when packaged in the same game they were content to, mostly, leave Shadow Dragon exactly as is. And, in a way, that's fine. The only things people really seem to think is missed potential is characterizing Hardin and at least mentioning the Grust twins. Maybe a Sheena acknowledgment for her friends. Well, I'm different. I'm going to suggest a cameo for every character introduced in Mystery of the Emblem and make them appear in some way in Shadow Dragon. And you're going to read it. Because apparently you have nothing better to do with your time (I hope).

Playable Character Cameos

-7th Platoon Gang: All appear as villagers in the Altea chapter. This is easily the least intrusive kind of cameo and it would make perfect sense that these people would be just here as villagers. Some of the dialogue from the villagers in that chapter is very expositiony and might have to do with a rework, but they could still pass on the same basic info. And there could be a special secret alternate conversation if you visit Ryan's house with Gordin.

-Marisha: Visit the Hammerne visit with Lena instead of Marth and Marisha will appear saying Lena's grandfather is looking for Marth to give him the Hammerne staff. Lena can then just talk to Marisha and we can establish the eixstence of this apprentice teacher relationship that we have never once seen interact with each other throughout the series.

-Warren: By far the least developed or interesting Mystery of the Emblem PC. Like the rest, throw him in a village somewhere in Macedon. Though maybe he can also have a secret event with Catria to establish their relationship

-Yuliya and Jubello: As I said these are the characters that most needed to appear in Shadow Dragon as they recontexualize the entire position of Grust, and we have express reference to actions taking place during the War of Shadows regarding them that we just don't see. I would give them a dedicated Gaiden chapter if I could, but, in lieu of that, mention them during the Grust arc and have them show up in the same cell as Elice after liberating Thabes. Elice can then be seen to play a minor Elbert role for them so we can get some more characterization out of her.

-Samuel: This guy could really go anywhere, and, honestly, I think his gimmick is better if it's held off until we actually meet him in Mystery of the Emblem. So, instead of having him appear directly, I'd have a few villagers across the continent mention the legendary Navarre was in an area Marth hasn't reached yet, with additional dialogue of confusion being exhibited by Navarre if he's the one to visit the village ("The legendary swordsman Navarre has been in Khadein recently I hear" "What are these people talking about? I've never even been near Khadein")

-Phina: If I could retroactively add one Mystery of the Emblem character to the Shadow Dragon playable cast it would be her to have a dancer in Shadow Dragon, but since we're just talking cameos, like the others, put her in the village in the Port Warren chapter (since that's where she's from, despite being on the complete opposite side of the continent in Mystery of the Emblem).

-Arlen: My favourite cameo idea and a bit more dynamic than the others. As you approach Khadein in its chapter, Arlen appears and overthrows the nonexistent boss there,liberating Khadein from Gharnef, a bit like how Ced liberates Munster in Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia. You then have to reach Khadein while he fends off enemies from the gate. This could also be done without changing gameplay just from a post battle cutscene, as, even without the gameplay change, it would still add something by giving a good reason why you don't have to fight in the interior of Khadein in Shadow Dragon, and provides some sort of explanation as to where and why Gharnef just leaves during the chapter.

-Sheena: Appears after Jiol is killed and negotiates the peace with Marth. She's also the one who reveals that Gharnef is the one who has Falchion. As opposed to Malledus' "We've looked everywhere sire, it isn't here." "Everywhere, as in, you've checked the entire country already?" "It's a small country sire."

Boss Cameos

-Lumel & Lykke: We see them talk to Michalis at the start of the Knight Filled Sky. They are charged with defending the interior of the citadel, but negotiate the surrender with Marth after Michalis is killed.

-Gail: A brief scene when Marth first reaches Macedon where it's established he made an alliance with the Macedonian Vikings to ferry his army from Grust to Macedon. This event can later be referenced in Mystery of the Emblem just to give the vikings some more presence in the world.

-Torus, Eibel and Nehring: These three are established as nobles of Archanea who appear during the conquest of Archanea. They highlight some of the more unsavoury aspects of the nation by displaying their arrogance. They also first introduce the plot point of Nyna getting married (long before the war is over) with Nehring putting himself forwards as a suitable candidate. It's established that Nyna continues to travel with Marth even though she doesn't fight partially because she just doesn't want to be near these aristocrats that are now focusing on the reconstruction efforts in Archanea.

-Lang: Only applicable to the DS remake and not Book 1, but I think Lang would add some great thematic mirror if he was added to the end of Horace's chapter. After a whole short story about the plight of a collaborator and how he only tried to do the best by his people, we get a report that another collaborator called Lang has surrendered. Nyna, of course having just established a precedent for sparing collaborators, pardon's Lang, leaving a bit of ironic dark foreshadowing for people who have played Mystery of the Emblem as we know exactly what kind of person Lang is and how, unlike Horace, he doesn't deserve the mercy despite both of them having comitted the same crimes.

-Dall: Some kind of brief interaction with Gharnef and brainwashed Tiki to establish who the soldiers in the Tiki chapter even are, because it's a bit unclear. He skedaddles before letting Marth actually fight him though.

-Yoder: Joins Arlen in his conquering of Thabes, establishing who he even is and that he's one of Arlen's actual friends.

-Willow: He stands as the boss of the Khadein chapter until the proximity event is triggered where Yoder and Areln capture him. Having him appear here also does something for Mystery of the Emblem's story, as it establishes him as a Gharnef loyalists and as a result when he shows back up in Altea in the sequel it highlights that Gharnef has integrated himself into Archanea.

 

And that's all of my ideas. What are yours?

[Fire Emblem Fan]

To be honest, your thoughts for the playable characters are the same as mine. That's where those characters make the most sense to me, and that's what I'd do if I could.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

To be honest, your thoughts for the playable characters are the same as mine. That's where those characters make the most sense to me, and that's what I'd do if I could.

In addition to just being nice and logical cameos for people who like those characters, using them for the villager roles would just help to break up the repeated use of NPC mugs. I love middle aged woman holding groceries, but she appears everywhere in the game!

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 9/1/2024 at 4:21 AM, Jotari said:

Phina: If I could retroactively add one Mystery of the Emblem character to the Shadow Dragon playable cast it would be her to have a dancer in Shadow Dragon, but since we're just talking cameos, like the others, put her in the village in the Port Warren chapter (since that's where she's from, despite being on the complete opposite side of the continent in Mystery of the Emblem).

Idea: You can recruit Phina in chapter 16 of SD. But when you recruit her... it turns out, it's Xane! You thought you were getting a Dancer? Too bad! You just get... someone who can replicate your best unit. So, not bad!

On 9/1/2024 at 4:21 AM, Jotari said:

Arlen: My favourite cameo idea and a bit more dynamic than the others. As you approach Khadein in its chapter, Arlen appears and overthrows the nonexistent boss there,liberating Khadein from Gharnef, a bit like how Ced liberates Munster in Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia.

I think this could work if Arlen starts out a bit stronger. As a low-level Mage, it's hard to see him standing up against Gharnef's forces, some of them already promoted. Perhaps it could work if he showed up with some allies?

On 9/1/2024 at 4:21 AM, Jotari said:

And there could be a special secret alternate conversation if you visit Ryan's house with Gordin.

Gordin could receive "Ryan's Bow" as an exclusive item from said conversation. It wouldn't be very strong, but it'd be a neat item cameo.

On 9/1/2024 at 4:21 AM, Jotari said:

Nyna, of course having just established a precedent for sparing collaborators, pardon's Lang, leaving a bit of ironic dark foreshadowing for people who have played Mystery of the Emblem as we know exactly what kind of person Lang is and how, unlike Horace, he doesn't deserve the mercy despite both of them having comitted the same crimes.

Ooh, that's a good one. Definitely a fan of Horace's paralogue in General (heh), so throwing a mention of Lang could be neat foreshadowing.

Here's an alternative option - Lang is actually extremely loyal to Archanea. He's the one who mentions Horace, and insists that Nyna execute him. So naturally, he develops a chip on his shoulder when Nyna lets the traitor live. This would presage his uncompromising attitude toward Lang, and his inabiity to see the injustice of the policies coming to him from above.

On 9/1/2024 at 4:21 AM, Jotari said:

So, instead of having him appear directly, I'd have a few villagers across the continent mention the legendary Navarre was in an area Marth hasn't reached yet, with additional dialogue of confusion being exhibited by Navarre if he's the one to visit the village

This is a good one. Maybe one of the villages could offer "Navarre's legendary blade", which turns out to be... a regular Iron Sword.

On 9/1/2024 at 4:21 AM, Jotari said:

Marisha: Visit the Hammerne visit with Lena instead of Marth and Marisha will appear saying Lena's grandfather is looking for Marth to give him the Hammerne staff. Lena can then just talk to Marisha and we can establish the eixstence of this apprentice teacher relationship that we have never once seen interact with each other throughout the series.

Is that where Marisha is from? Didn't know that. Guess it would work out.

Maybe if Matthis visits the village, Marisha will just hide until he leaves.

On 9/1/2024 at 4:21 AM, Jotari said:

Yoder: Joins Arlen in his conquering of Thabes, establishing who he even is and that he's one of Arlen's actual friends.

Yoder must be busy, between defending Khadein and getting Roy the missing legendary weapons.

[Jotari]

46 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Idea: You can recruit Phina in chapter 16 of SD. But when you recruit her... it turns out, it's Xane! You thought you were getting a Dancer? Too bad! You just get... someone who can replicate your best unit. So, not bad!

I think this could work if Arlen starts out a bit stronger. As a low-level Mage, it's hard to see him standing up against Gharnef's forces, some of them already promoted. Perhaps it could work if he showed up with some allies?

Gordin could receive "Ryan's Bow" as an exclusive item from said conversation. It wouldn't be very strong, but it'd be a neat item cameo.

Ooh, that's a good one. Definitely a fan of Horace's paralogue in General (heh), so throwing a mention of Lang could be neat foreshadowing.

Here's an alternative option - Lang is actually extremely loyal to Archanea. He's the one who mentions Horace, and insists that Nyna execute him. So naturally, he develops a chip on his shoulder when Nyna lets the traitor live. This would presage his uncompromising attitude toward Lang, and his inabiity to see the injustice of the policies coming to him from above.

This is a good one. Maybe one of the villages could offer "Navarre's legendary blade", which turns out to be... a regular Iron Sword.

Is that where Marisha is from? Didn't know that. Guess it would work out.

Maybe if Matthis visits the village, Marisha will just hide until he leaves.

Yoder must be busy, between defending Khadein and getting Roy the missing legendary weapons.

Ah, good old Shanty Pete's First Mate. I can always depend on you to express some interest in my mad ramblings about Archanea.

I arranged it by player character then boss, but, yes, Arlen gets (Archanea)Yoder to help him. But even if he's weak, I think that's relatively fine because he still has a gate to sit on and the idea would be to rush to save him (course Marth can't seize if he's sitting on the seize point, but some more varied chapter objectives for Shadow Dragon wouldn't go astray).

Marisha is from Grust. Is she specifically from the coastal village we recruit her at? Who knows, but we meet Lena's grandfather in the Camus chapter and Lena has ostensibly trained Marisha, so that's as good a place as any for her to logically be (though, as I've noted in other threads, the location of Lena's Grandfather's abode manages to be in two completely different areas between the two games, so the whole Lena, Grust, Marsha geographical and temporal timeline is a bit confusing to begin with).

 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

Marisha is from Grust. Is she specifically from the coastal village we recruit her at? Who knows, but we meet Lena's grandfather in the Camus chapter and Lena has ostensibly trained Marisha, so that's as good a place as any for her to logically be (though, as I've noted in other threads, the location of Lena's Grandfather's abode manages to be in two completely different areas between the two games, so the whole Lena, Grust, Marsha geographical and temporal timeline is a bit confusing to begin with).

Maybe it's Lena's two different grandfathers? Anyway, showing her relationship with Marisha would certainly be welcome. As there's no clear connection between the two otherwise.

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

I arranged it by player character then boss, but, yes, Arlen gets (Archanea)Yoder to help him. But even if he's weak, I think that's relatively fine because he still has a gate to sit on and the idea would be to rush to save him (course Marth can't seize if he's sitting on the seize point, but some more varied chapter objectives for Shadow Dragon wouldn't go astray).

Well, "victory condition is Seize" feels too much of a paradigm to really change. Maybe put him near the gate, and if he survives the map, he gives the player a Thoron tome.

...Wait, "green units" don't even exist in the DSFE engine. I'd probably reduce his role to a narrative one. Say, Yoder sends Wendell a message, requesting help displacing Gharnef. Perhaps mentioning that the Dark Sorceror acquired a legendary blade as well. Marth rendezvous with Yoder outside Khadein, with the understanding that - should Marth clear a path to the palace at Khadein, then Yoder's team (including his new apprentice, Arlen) will take it from there. The rest of the chapter then plays out as normal.

I think this would help the chapter fit better within the game - currently, it comes across as a rather disconnected sidequest. As it stands, Malledus knowing that Gharnef took Falchion is... just kinda random. This way, there's a stronger case for leaving, even when Altea is so close by.

On 9/1/2024 at 4:21 AM, Jotari said:

Sheena: Appears after Jiol is killed and negotiates the peace with Marth. She's also the one who reveals that Gharnef is the one who has Falchion. As opposed to Malledus' "We've looked everywhere sire, it isn't here." "Everywhere, as in, you've checked the entire country already?" "It's a small country sire."

That could have a similar effect. But, I think it'd be more powerful for Sheema's first interaction with Marth to be during the mext war. Give her some time to grow into hating the invader who killed her father and ruined her kingdom, before having her view of him turned upside-down.

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

Ah, good old Shanty Pete's First Mate. I can always depend on you to express some interest in my mad ramblings about Archanea.

Of course having Shadow Dragon as my intro to the series would keep me coming back to Archanea...

[Jotari]

47 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

...Wait, "green units" don't even exist in the DSFE engine. I'd probably reduce his role to a narrative one.

This is kind of an archaic aspect that ought to be changed anyway. Sure, the NES had the processing power of a calculator and the colour green might have broken it, but twenty years later does it really make sense of Xane to be a red unit? Sure, it's kind of funny Marth can just straight up murder Tiki in Mystery of the Emblem, but, like, why?

[Acacia Sgt]

48 minutes ago, Jotari said:

This is kind of an archaic aspect that ought to be changed anyway. Sure, the NES had the processing power of a calculator and the colour green might have broken it, but twenty years later does it really make sense of Xane to be a red unit? Sure, it's kind of funny Marth can just straight up murder Tiki in Mystery of the Emblem, but, like, why?

Reminds me how Gaiden loophole it by making any "green" units to simply be uncontrollable blue ones.

I can only guess it was kept since it avoided a few hassles. Make Xane anything other than a red unit, and now the soldiers with him in the jail area will aim to kill. And why bother adding the code to make them specifically not attack him when you can just make him the same faction as they?

Anyway... I got reminded Nehring has an unused portrait in Shadow Dragon's data. So it seems the idea of retroactive introductions was considered at some point. Even if for just the one guy.

[Jotari]

35 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Anyway... I got reminded Nehring has an unused portrait in Shadow Dragon's data. So it seems the idea of retroactive introductions was considered at some point. Even if for just the one guy.

I forgot that was a thing. Funny how out of all the characters we found in the data it's just him and not any of the playable characters or more noteworthy bosses (then again the only boss original to Book 2 more noteworthy than Nehring is Lang, and that's saying something because Nehring is very generic).

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

17 hours ago, Jotari said:

Sure, it's kind of funny Marth can just straight up murder Tiki in Mystery of the Emblem, but, like, why?

Uh, because Gharnef hypnotized her into fighting Marth's forces, and the only way to break it is by bringing Bantu to talk to her? It totally makes sense that she would be an enemy. And the fact that it's possible to be in a scenario where you can't recruit Tiki, and must kill her to progress, really heightens the tragedy of the situation.

Assuming you're talking about her book 1 recruitment at the Fane of Raman, that is. I don't remember her role in Book 2 or FE12.

There are cases where "green unitdom" would make sense, though. This includes blue units who should be green - Hardin and the Wolfguard, or the prisoners in Archanea Palace. But also, red units who should start as green, like Rickard, Wendell, and the Whitewings in their joining maps.

[X-Naut]

I like most of your suggestions, although there are a few I'll offer dissent on:

• While I largely agree with Jubelo & Yuliya in Thabes, I wouldn't put them in the same cell as Elice since it's openly stated that they were held under crueler conditions. Getting them out could absolutely be a paralogue if you recruit Lorenz.
• Related to the above, I think Arlen could be the one to inform Wendell about Gharnef keeping the kids hostage (including their relocation to Thabes), which he can then relay to Lorenz in a conversation. I'm not sold on the chapter reinterpretation (Shanty's objections come to mind) but as somebody keeping close tabs on Khadein in his master's absence, he makes a good link in the chain that saves them.
• Sheena and her siblings were sent to live in hiding in Archanea, so maybe an epilogue cameo instead? Or the Arch League can briefly double back before Khadein...
• If you want to make Phina playable early, then maybe put her in Chapter 11? She can jump into your formation at the start fleeing Knorda brutes, clueing you in that you should pay the village a visit on the way to Pales.
• Echoing Acacia, let Nehring have a more favorable cameo over Lang. If you want Lang showing up, have the Arcky higher-ups (Jeorge, Midia, Horace, etc) speak out against him and have him arrested on the spot. Makes his release as the Act 1 villain of Book 2 a bigger red flag.

The 7th Platooners' entry also reminds me of something else I had in mind: FE4 style events! Various on-map events that give stat boosts, and in a two-book game these would transfer across books. The Platooners would be a special case of Book 2 units being able to pick up transfer bonuses; I was thinking Ryan gets +1 in a stat where Gordin gets +3, while Luke and Roderick live in the two feuding villages. Whoever's Marth visits gets +1 to a starting stat. I haven't thought about anything specific for Cecil but probably another +1 or two... yeah, they're small, but these starting squad characters joining when a single point matters most.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Uh, because Gharnef hypnotized her into fighting Marth's forces, and the only way to break it is by bringing Bantu to talk to her? It totally makes sense that she would be an enemy. And the fact that it's possible to be in a scenario where you can't recruit Tiki, and must kill her to progress, really heightens the tragedy of the situation.

Assuming you're talking about her book 1 recruitment at the Fane of Raman, that is. I don't remember her role in Book 2 or FE12.

There are cases where "green unitdom" would make sense, though. This includes blue units who should be green - Hardin and the Wolfguard, or the prisoners in Archanea Palace. But also, red units who should start as green, like Rickard, Wendell, and the Whitewings in their joining maps.

I said Mystery of the Emblem. In that game she's just patiently waiting in a room in the ice temple for Marth to recruit her. But, since she's a red unit instead of a green unit, you can just stab her instead of talk to her.

3 hours ago, X-Naut said:

I like most of your suggestions, although there are a few I'll offer dissent on:

• While I largely agree with Jubelo & Yuliya in Thabes, I wouldn't put them in the same cell as Elice since it's openly stated that they were held under crueler conditions. Getting them out could absolutely be a paralogue if you recruit Lorenz.
• Related to the above, I think Arlen could be the one to inform Wendell about Gharnef keeping the kids hostage (including their relocation to Thabes), which he can then relay to Lorenz in a conversation. I'm not sold on the chapter reinterpretation (Shanty's objections come to mind) but as somebody keeping close tabs on Khadein in his master's absence, he makes a good link in the chain that saves them.

In the established story they were also specifically said to be held in Khadein too. Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense since Marth conquers Khadein before Grust. So I don't think moving them to Khadein with Elice is necessarily a major issue.  It's more succinct to combine them together and it makes sense in universe since they have the same relative status. That being said, I still would prefer a dedicated Gaiden to give them the focus they deserve as a plot point. But I was coming from the perspective of this of leaving everything mostly intact, because would honestly rather change all of the Gaidens we got to stuff more character or fanservice relevant (except Horace, he cool) if I start going down that road.

Edited September 4 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Assuming you're talking about her book 1 recruitment at the Fane of Raman, that is. I don't remember her role in Book 2 or FE12.

She's just standing in one of the rooms MENACINGLY that only opens up if you got all the Starsphere shards. Since she's a red unit... then yes, she can be attacked.

Can't speak for the original, but in New Mystery there are enemies in the room with her; at least in Hard and above. Perhaps it's another case of "save the trouble of coding specific behaviors and just make her the same faction as the enemies so they won't kill her".

3 hours ago, X-Naut said:

While I largely agree with Jubelo & Yuliya in Thabes, I wouldn't put them in the same cell as Elice since it's openly stated that they were held under crueler conditions. Getting them out could absolutely be a paralogue if you recruit Lorenz.

I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere that Wendel took them from Khadein to someplace they could be safe while the war was still on-going. No need for Thabes. Just have a scene where they find them once Khadein is liberated, then Wendel (if alive, else the usual stand-in Malledus) pops up saying he'll make sure they're sent someplace safe.

---

Also, something I forgot...

On 9/2/2024 at 5:02 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Idea: You can recruit Phina in chapter 16 of SD. But when you recruit her... it turns out, it's Xane! You thought you were getting a Dancer? Too bad! You just get... someone who can replicate your best unit. So, not bad!

lol That's prime for grounds to be a running gag. Turns out all those cameos were Xane all along! XD

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

said Mystery of the Emblem. In that game she's just patiently waiting in a room in the ice temple for Marth to recruit her. But, since she's a red unit instead of a green unit, you can just stab her instead of talk to her.

Mystery of the Emblem has two books though, and in the first, her function is the same as in Shadow Dragon. I earnestly thought that's the one you were referring to. My bad.

Having said that, if Tiki wasn't brainwashed, then yeah it's dumb she'd show up as a red unit.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

She's just standing in one of the rooms MENACINGLY

I mean, if she's got her Divinestone, then she is pretty menacing. Rawr.

5 hours ago, X-Naut said:

FE4 style events!

Yes! Ha ha ha... Yes!

Love how FE4 did narrative events that gave stat boosts. Then FE5 extended it into learned skills and promotions, too. Would feel "old-school", while still adding some mechanical intrigue.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

lol That's prime for grounds to be a running gag. Turns out all those cameos were Xane all along! XD

You thought you killed Desaix at Zofia Castle, but it was me, Xane with a Dracoshield!

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

She's just standing in one of the rooms MENACINGLY that only opens up if you got all the Starsphere shards. Since she's a red unit... then yes, she can be attacked.

Can't speak for the original, but in New Mystery there are enemies in the room with her; at least in Hard and above. Perhaps it's another case of "save the trouble of coding specific behaviors and just make her the same faction as the enemies so they won't kill her".

I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere that Wendel took them from Khadein to someplace they could be safe while the war was still on-going. No need for Thabes. Just have a scene where they find them once Khadein is liberated, then Wendel (if alive, else the usual stand-in Malledus) pops up saying he'll make sure they're sent someplace safe.

The thing is, if they're rescued when Khadein is liberated then that means they're in Marth's hands when  he invades Grust, which is kind of hugely impactful. Marth isn't really the type to threaten the lives of hostages to achieve victory, but Grust only ever fights till the end the way they do for the sake of the twins. So if he just gave them back it could genuinely diffuse tensions. Or cause a schism in Grust as the factions who support the war want to keep fighting. Hell it could cause a lot of conflict in Marth's own army as some of the more pragmatic people might reall disagree with Marth returning them or not using them as hostages. There's really a lot of ways in which it could go, but the worst one would probably just be to ignore the issue entirely.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Mystery of the Emblem has two books though, and in the first, her function is the same as in Shadow Dragon. I earnestly thought that's the one you were referring to. My bad.

That two games for one back in the day was no doubt seen as a great deal, but it's causing headaches now thirty years later. Game didn't even have any real mysteries in either book >.>

[Acacia Sgt]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The thing is, if they're rescued when Khadein is liberated then that means they're in Marth's hands when  he invades Grust, which is kind of hugely impactful. Marth isn't really the type to threaten the lives of hostages to achieve victory, but Grust only ever fights till the end the way they do for the sake of the twins. So if he just gave them back it could genuinely diffuse tensions. Or cause a schism in Grust as the factions who support the war want to keep fighting. Hell it could cause a lot of conflict in Marth's own army as some of the more pragmatic people might reall disagree with Marth returning them or not using them as hostages. There's really a lot of ways in which it could go, but the worst one would probably just be to ignore the issue entirely.

As I said, Wendel took them elsewhere. We're told right in the very first chapter.

Grandfather:
The deceased King Grunia had two children:
Princess Yumina and Prince Yubello, twins of 13 to 14 years of age.
The King was scared of Garnef, so he sent the two to Khadein.
I heard they were held as hostages and locked inside a dark room.
When they were finally rescued by Wendel, they were on the brink of death.
The bishop immediately took them to a monastery in Khadein to care for them.

So Marth didn't took them with him after leaving Khadein. The kids remained there.

Now that certainly would've been interesting, but the plot dictated for Grust to fight to the last, hence that retroactive explanation of the twins being left at Khadein.

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

As I said, Wendel took them elsewhere. We're told right in the very first chapter.

Grandfather:
The deceased King Grunia had two children:
Princess Yumina and Prince Yubello, twins of 13 to 14 years of age.
The King was scared of Garnef, so he sent the two to Khadein.
I heard they were held as hostages and locked inside a dark room.
When they were finally rescued by Wendel, they were on the brink of death.
The bishop immediately took them to a monastery in Khadein to care for them.

So Marth didn't took them with him after leaving Khadein. The kids remained there.

Now that certainly would've been interesting, but the plot dictated for Grust to fight to the last, hence that retroactive explanation of the twins being left at Khadein.

Yes, I'm aware of that, however, we're talking about actively changing story details already here, and, if we're to be pedantic, it doesn't say when they were rescued, or if they were even rescued in Khadein. We know that they were sent to Khadein, because, obviously, that's where Gharnef's powerbase is. And we know they were taken to a monastery in Khadein after being rescued, but they easily could have been in Khadein to begin with and then moved to Thabes.

[Acacia Sgt]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yes, I'm aware of that, however, we're talking about actively changing story details already here, and, if we're to be pedantic, it doesn't say when they were rescued, or if they were even rescued in Khadein. We know that they were sent to Khadein, because, obviously, that's where Gharnef's powerbase is. And we know they were taken to a monastery in Khadein after being rescued, but they easily could have been in Khadein to begin with and then moved to Thabes.

There's no need to make it convoluted. They were taken to Khadein. Ergo, they were still in Khadein when rescued. So I feel it flows much better having such a rescue scene there than in some other place. We already have the details, so it's just a matter of showing it, rather than being told via House NPC.

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

There's no need to make it convoluted. They were taken to Khadein. Ergo, they were still in Khadein when rescued. So I feel it flows much better having such a rescue scene there than in some other place. We already have the details, so it's just a matter of showing it, rather than being told via House NPC.

I feel it doesn't flow better because of the natural follow up issues that creates.

[Acacia Sgt]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I feel it doesn't flow better because of the natural follow up issues that creates.

Not really. Ludwick is already portrayed as being meek and easily cowed. Take his fear of Gharnef, and make it so he knows that Gharnef can do all sort of stuff like warping. Thus, no matter if the kids were rescued, he thinks Gharnef can just kidnap them again no matter where they are, even with guards 24/7. So he refuses to stand down. And of course, Camus gotta Camus. There. That's how Grust still fights on.

Edited September 4 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Not really. Ludwick is already portrayed as being meek and easily cowed. Take his fear of Gharnef, and make it so he knows that Gharnef can do all sort of stuff like warping. Thus, no matter if the kids were rescued, he thinks Gharnef can just kidnap them again no matter where they are, even with guards 24/7. So he refuses to stand down. And of course, Camus gotta Camus. There. That's how Grust still fights on.

Ludwick isn't depicted at all (I'm not sure if he's even mentioned in Shadow Dragon). Doing anything with him involves changing things in order to justify and explain character motivations and decisions, and if we're going that far, we might as well make a simpler change to moving them to after the Grust arc is finished. Or go bigger with the changes and turn the twins into a character arc moment for Marth as he struggles with what's the right thing to do when it comes to using them as hostages. Wrapping them up in a nice little box and then ignoring them just feels like the worst of both worlds to me.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Ludwick isn't depicted at all (I'm not sure if he's even mentioned in Shadow Dragon). Doing anything with him involves changing things in order to justify and explain character motivations and decisions, and if we're going that far, we might as well make a simpler change to moving them to after the Grust arc is finished. Or go bigger with the changes and turn the twins into a character arc moment for Marth as he struggles with what's the right thing to do when it comes to using them as hostages. Wrapping them up in a nice little box and then ignoring them just feels like the worst of both worlds to me.

Well, it is pointed out they were on the brink of death when they were found. So they weren't in condition to travel. And no doubt Marth couldn't afford to wait for them to get better to take them with him.

Yes, he's mentioned in the intro narration of the chapter you fight Lorenz and Camus as early as Book 1 of Mystery, and of his fears driving him to ally with Dohlr. You don't need to change much. You can keep him as an off-screen character, and the whole "his fears of Gharnef kidnapping his children again" can be put in the narrative intro as part of how his fears drive him to be an enemy of Archanea.

[Jotari]

40 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, it is pointed out they were on the brink of death when they were found. So they weren't in condition to travel. And no doubt Marth couldn't afford to wait for them to get better to take them with him.

Yes, he's mentioned in the intro narration of the chapter you fight Lorenz and Camus as early as Book 1 of Mystery, and of his fears driving him to ally with Dohlr. You don't need to change much. You can keep him as an off-screen character, and the whole "his fears of Gharnef kidnapping his children again" can be put in the narrative intro as part of how his fears drive him to be an enemy of Archanea.

Just having additional clarifying elements of characterization to justify a plot point leans further into what I think is already a bit of an issue in the game, which is the narration just explaining pretty huge elements of the war that deserve to be shown instead of told. But I don't think I'm going to really change your mind on this point so I think we'll have to agree to disagree with the best method to handle the twins.

[X-Naut]

Well, this debacle exploded while I was asleep...

While it's said that they were taken to Khadein, that doesn't necessarily rule out them being located before Marth arrives, and as @Jotari mentioned it works a lot better that way. From Gharnef's POV it makes sense to relocate them because Khadein is a known location close to Grust. Moving them stops some infiltrator from sneaking in and setting them free. And for Marth's side it just doesn't make sense to resolve Camus's main leverage for siding with Dolhr. Nor does the dialogue @Acacia Sgt posted exactly specify where they were rescued from; there's some room for interpretation. And I got two more tidbits to add:

1. Who's to say Khadein is free from Marth's visit? They aren't there for long, and Gharnef was just toying with them in the first place. He can always warp back after they're gone to reestablish himself, and if Shadow Dragon is any indication he still controls a sizeable chunk of their populace. And there's a convenient solution to that after the foray in Thabes...
2. Marth's army don't travel to Gharnef's lair conventionally; Gotoh warps them all there. Is it far-fetched to give Wendell a pitstop at Khadein to drop off the kids while spreading word of Gharnef's defeat?

tl;dr I'm on side "extradited to Thabes" because it makes Camus's terminal capitulation to Dolhr a lot more coherent.

 

One last thing while I'm on the topic of Thabes... while not a cameo, that chapter could foreshadow Eremiya and her assassins' existence. Have some Berserkers, Snipers and Swordmasters from an unknown faction appear as reinforcements a few turns in, with Gharnef remarking that his pawn's project has finally borne results.

[Jotari]

44 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

One last thing while I'm on the topic of Thabes... while not a cameo, that chapter could foreshadow Eremiya and her assassins' existence. Have some Berserkers, Snipers and Swordmasters from an unknown faction appear as reinforcements a few turns in, with Gharnef remarking that his pawn's project has finally borne results.

I would not object to an outright Legion appearance. Though, Eremiya and her gang are in a bit if a different position to the other Mystery of the Emblem characters since they probably didn't exist on any level when Shadow Dragon was made. Still, if we ever get a fourth incarnation of the game foreshadowing there wouldn't be the worst fan service.