Jotari Posted Tuesday at 01:38 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 01:38 PM Okay, so I think we all know that, unless it's a specific topic of exploration, gender should be irrelevant to how a character is perceived. But due to a combination of social and instinctual factors we do end up viewing male and female characters differently. So a little social experiment popped into my head, in what ways would the major Fire Emblem antagonists be viewed differently if they were of the opposite gender? These are my somewhat loose thoughts on the matter. Medeus is honestly such a nothing character I don't think it would really change how people see him much at all if he were a woman. Though Earth Princess Medeus would certainly convey a different image than Earth Prince Medeus. Given the lack of Female antagonists overall in the series and gaming as a whole, he probably would be improved if he were a woman just by it being more of a novelty for 1990. Duma is one of the more interesting cases because he actually has some theming going on related to his gender. He represents the traditionally masculine traits of aggression and strength while Mila represents the traditionally feminine traits of nurturing and love. This could still work with a gender swap as it would serve as a subversion of the traditional roles. I have to say I find the idea of Male Mila more interesting than Female Duma, as while I have seen a few female embodiment of war, I can't think of any real Male Mother Goddess (of course Mila herself isn't exactly 100% good either). I feel Hardin might lose some of his tragedy if he were a woman. Him losing himself over unrequited love would be seen as weak and distinctly unfeminist if he was a powerful woman pining for a man. Of course, I wouldn't really judge anyone for thinking of him in that way as he currently is, but the intention of his character does seem to be a good man who did everything right and still suffered heartbreak because he just wasn't the right man. Any potential he has as an antagonist is still, unfortunately, undercut by him ultimately just being brainwashed and their refusal to ever actually establish his characterization as Marth's ally in the three times they've made Shadow Dragon. I don't really have much to say about Julius. He already kind of has female counterparts already, both with his literal twin sister Julia and Ishtar as the cool mage girl. Ultimately I don't think a lot would really change with how he'd be perceived if he were a woman. Partially because at the end of the day he an ancient dragon satan and gender doesn't really come into it much. Veld...is even more boring than Medeus. I guess it'd be cool to see one of the Lopt Sect members be female, but Jugdral as a whole already has its fair share of female antagonists in the series so it wouldn't even be that much of a novelty (that being said all of the female bosses are relegated to Genealogy, I think the only female bosses in Thracia are the ones you can recruit, or the dead versions of the ones you could have recruited). Idunn is the first female we could call a major antagonist even though she herself has no will of her own. She's also the only antagonist whose gender actually matters in a literal sense. The whole point of her character is that she was turned into a baby making machine and, even though it's ambiguous as to whether she is literally, physically, giving birth to dragons or if the War Dragon creation is more magic petri dish variety, it still feels like her character just sort of wouldn't work if she were male. I suppose Zephiel, the actual main antagonist, is worth a mention. What I feel would change most about him would be his relationship with Guinevere if he were a woman. We are told pretty directly in the text that they are close as siblings, but if both of them were women I feel like that closeness (which is pretty much entirely all tell, we only see them speak, like, one time) would be more readily believable because there'd be a more palpable sense of sorority if they share a gender (feel free to disagree with me, I'm writing all this hoping people will disagree with my points and invoke some discussion on how gender is perceived). I have nothing to say on Nergal, and slightly regretting committing myself to mentioning every villain. Fomortiis might be our only genderless main villain. Like, sure, he's the Demon King and they use male pronouns (probably), but he's also not even remotely human. Other non human antagonsits like Medeus at least have human forms and are vaguely related to humans, but Fomortiis is basically satan. Cipher doesn't even assign a gender to him. Our other main antagonist is Lyon and I would say he would be one of the more difficult ones to gender swap as his gender does play a role into his characterization. Namely in how he doesn't feel like he's traditionally masculine enough and harbours jealousy for Ephraim. Plot beats that wouldn't really work in the same way if he were female. It's already been pointed out that Ashnard's gender inversion would basically just be Edelgard. Which has some truth to it, but also isn't completely true either. He does lean a lot more on the Social Darwinism, a might is everything philsoophy would feel more subversive coming from a woman. Though not necessarily in a way that would undermine it. Ashera is only our second female major antagonist, though one could argue that, much like Fomortiis, she is agendered, being a god and all. Though she is certainly more outwardly gendered in appearance than Fomortiis. I think if she were designed to look like a man the coldness aspect of her would feel different. Ashera has those ice queen overtones. She really feels like an emotionless robot. If she were a man I feel like that vibe would come across more, I'm not sure what the right word would be, perhaps hostile? More intimidating than imperious, if I'm remotely conveying myself at all. I suppose I should mention Lehran too. He already has a very effeminate design and despite being a villain his characterization is all about compassion. So he'd be a pretty natural fit if he were a woman, but in my view less interesting. I like my pretty boy wooby destroyer of worlds. Grima is already gender variable and I don't care about the other Awakening antagonists enough to mention them. I also have nothing of note to say about Anankos or Garon. Three Houses is probably the best example to show how far we've come, as it is largely about a conflict between two women (Rhea and Edelgard) and not in a way where it needs to be for any reason. It just is, and that's not highlighted at all, and that's kind of cool. I think in sofar as they'd be viewed differently if they were male would come down to how good their design is. As I think if they were designed to look like more traditional villains in general then they'd be viewed as less sympathetically. Speaking of which, Thales...exists. Epimenides also exists as the first villain, probably even the first character in the series entirely, who is actually designed to be completely androgynous and agendered. Though, we know so little about what the whole point of that subplot is, there's no real clear reason as to why. And finally Sombron. I started thinking about this because I made a recent thread on Sombron. I'm not sure what the connecting thread was after I made it though because I have nothing much to say about him. He is not that deep. And much like Fomortiis he doesn't even visibly look that human to begin with. What I do think would change if he were a woman would be the way he so callously throws away his own children. Such a thing would probably come across as more contemptible if he were a woman (of course, it is absolutely and objectively awful even with him being a man). Anyway, those are all my loose thoughts on the matter. Tell me what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted Tuesday at 02:10 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 02:10 PM 16 minutes ago, Jotari said: The whole point of her character is that she was turned into a baby making machine and, even though it's ambiguous as to whether she is literally, physically, giving birth to dragons or if the War Dragon creation is more magic petri dish variety, it still feels like her character just sort of wouldn't work if she were male. It's not ambiguous. In the very final map: See those four statues on the sides? War Dragons spawn from them. The implication is this is where they're coming from. Idunn likely needs to be in this chamber to make them, but she's not giving birth to them directly. 16 minutes ago, Jotari said: Our other main antagonist is Lyon and I would say he would be one of the more difficult ones to gender swap as his gender does play a role into his characterization. Namely in how he doesn't feel like he's traditionally masculine enough and harbours jealousy for Ephraim. Plot beats that wouldn't really work in the same way if he were female. I feel very little would change with Lyon. Unless you really go wild with the changes (which can be done with male Lyon anyway), then all that would happen is that female!Lyon would love Ephraim and be jealous of Eirika. So the same interactions, just flipping to which siblings they're for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted Tuesday at 02:15 PM Author Share Posted Tuesday at 02:15 PM 3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said: It's not ambiguous. In the very final map: See those four statues on the sides? War Dragons spawn from them. The implication is this is where they're coming from. Idunn likely needs to be in this chamber to make them, but she's not giving birth to them directly. I know the final map has infinite reinforcements, and I have speculated that this might be their creation, but ultimately I don't see that really as distinct enough from enemies spawning throughout the rest of the game to really be unambigiously their creation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted Tuesday at 02:55 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 02:55 PM 38 minutes ago, Jotari said: I know the final map has infinite reinforcements, and I have speculated that this might be their creation, but ultimately I don't see that really as distinct enough from enemies spawning throughout the rest of the game to really be unambigiously their creation. Except we do see if the enemies come from stairs, the map edge, warping, or buildings. Here, it's statues with no discernible way to see if there's anything to come from. So that only leaves two possibilities: They're warping in, or they're emerging from the statues. And we know Idunn creates the War Dragons, leading credence to being the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etrurian emperor Posted Tuesday at 07:31 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 07:31 PM Oh Ishtar be thorn to shreds if she was a boy that fought for the empire because he was a simp for his girlfriend. We know how a female Arvis would be perceived since we got one in Three Houses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenticular Posted Tuesday at 08:27 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 08:27 PM It depends on how much gets changed. Consider Lyon, for example. If you made Lyon female but kept everything else the same so she was still secretly in love with Eirika and jealous of Ephraim, then that's a pretty interesting change. Queer characters are more common in games now, but for a 2004 game published by Nintendo that would have been a big deal. And the whole "I always loved you but never felt I could tell you" thing comes across very differently when there are conflicting sexualities involved. My queer ass would definitely find this version of female Lyon much more compelling than the actual Lyon that we got. On the other hand, if you do change female Lyon to be in love with Ephraim but jealous of Eirika, then I don't find that particularly interesting. Maybe it alters the dynamic of Eirika giving away the Sacred Stone a little bit, but probably not significantly. Female Ashnard is potentially an interesting one. For starters, there's all the stuff with Almedha and their kid, which I think would come across very differently if Ashnard was the one who actually got pregnant and gave birth. That would imply a much greater degree of commitment than the male Ashnard ever gave to his child. Both the willingness to have the child in the first place, then the willingness to completely give him up after he turns out not to have any laguz abilities. I think there's also extra potential for female Ashnard, if you're willing to make a few changes or additions. Change things so that female-Ashnard was actually the first-born child of the previous Daein king but wasn't heir because agnatic succession sucks, and I think that's suddenly a much more compelling character. (Related aside: In this scenario, if we had male Almedha and his role in Radiant Dawn was kept the same, then I suspect he'd be a particularly hated character. I mean, it's not as if actual Almedha is beloved, but if we took all her character traits and personality and put them on a male character, then I don't see people reacting at all well.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaky Jones Posted Tuesday at 10:21 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 10:21 PM FEH would make a lot more money than it already does. Â 8 hours ago, Jotari said: I have nothing to say on Nergal Good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted Tuesday at 10:24 PM Author Share Posted Tuesday at 10:24 PM (edited) 7 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said: Except we do see if the enemies come from stairs, the map edge, warping, or buildings. Here, it's statues with no discernible way to see if there's anything to come from. So that only leaves two possibilities: They're warping in, or they're emerging from the statues. And we know Idunn creates the War Dragons, leading credence to being the latter. Potentially. But statues aren't exactly birthing pods either. What's happening? Are the statues being turned into real dragons (and the one tile represents rows and rows of unseen statues)? Are they materlizing above the statues? Are they created inside the statues and then coming out from them (which is no wilder than interpreting them as coming out of them because they were in a room below them). And, for what it's worth, we do see manaketes inexplicably spawn from thrones in the previous chapter. Which probably doesn't help either way as it's just as vague an odd thinking about it in either sense. 1 hour ago, lenticular said: (Related aside: In this scenario, if we had male Almedha and his role in Radiant Dawn was kept the same, then I suspect he'd be a particularly hated character. I mean, it's not as if actual Almedha is beloved, but if we took all her character traits and personality and put them on a male character, then I don't see people reacting at all well.) In a way that might even maker her a more successful character, no? I mean, I don't think Almedha is designed to be a likeable person. Her characters traits are mostly all negative and she is being manipulated by Izuka, somewhat knowingly. I personally find her sympathetic, mostly because she's a pretty interesting character we don't see a whole lot of in fiction like Fire Emblem, but I think she was designed to be a character you're meant to get negative vibes about. 4 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said: FEH would make a lot more money than it already does. The parallel world where Medeus had at least a Mythic and Fallen variation, Ashnard wears a bikini and Duma actually got a Cipher Card Edited Tuesday at 10:26 PM by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted Wednesday at 12:37 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 12:37 AM I kind of like the idea of a male-coded, old dude Ashera. Makes Yune's differences stand out more. Because I bet a lot of you didn't think too hard about how Yune is young and impulsive to represent the new, free-er world order while Ashera is supposed to represent the old order and the maturity and objectivism that comes with age. She doesn't look old because anime artists are even more afraid to draw an old woman than they are an old man. I would even contend that there being a gender difference between Ashunera's halves is more interesting than those halves being both female. Such an all powerful deity wouldn't concern themself about the beorc/laguz social construct of gender. Can I get a Hell Yeah from Kyza? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted Wednesday at 01:35 AM Author Share Posted Wednesday at 01:35 AM (edited) 1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: I kind of like the idea of a male-coded, old dude Ashera. Makes Yune's differences stand out more. Because I bet a lot of you didn't think too hard about how Yune is young and impulsive to represent the new, free-er world order while Ashera is supposed to represent the old order and the maturity and objectivism that comes with age. She doesn't look old because anime artists are even more afraid to draw an old woman than they are an old man. I would even contend that there being a gender difference between Ashunera's halves is more interesting than those halves being both female. Such an all powerful deity wouldn't concern themself about the beorc/laguz social construct of gender. Can I get a Hell Yeah from Kyza? Yeah, but then we'd lose our only actually antagonistic female villain before Three Houses 😞 (unless we're in the reality where everyone else got gender swapped too). Though I could see Yune as a hyperactive little boy (though I wouldn't trust him sharing a body with known groomer Micaiah!). I also feel that if you were to make them different genders then Ashunera would have to look really androgynous. Otherwise it would feel like one side is winning out over the other when the whole point of Ashunera is that she's balanced. Edited Wednesday at 01:40 AM by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted Wednesday at 04:19 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 04:19 AM 14 hours ago, Jotari said: Duma is one of the more interesting cases because he actually has some theming going on related to his gender. He represents the traditionally masculine traits of aggression and strength while Mila represents the traditionally feminine traits of nurturing and love. This could still work with a gender swap as it would serve as a subversion of the traditional roles. I have to say I find the idea of Male Mila more interesting than Female Duma, as while I have seen a few female embodiment of war, I can't think of any real Male Mother Goddess (of course Mila herself isn't exactly 100% good either). I wonder - when it comes to major lore characters like this, would tgeir gender-swap have any domino effects? Like, in vanilla Echoes, the Duma Faithful is predominantly male, while the Mila Clergy are predominantly female. There are exceptions, such as Nuibaba and Nomah, but the trend is pretty clear (i.e. no female Arcanists, no male Clerics). If Mila were a man, would more Zofian men be drawn to the cloth? If Duma were a woman, would Rigellian women sacrifice their sons into Witches (Wizards?)? Perhaps the changes wouldn't be so dramatic. But it's hard to envision the deities having a different gender from the start, without any unfolding implications. 3 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said: I kind of like the idea of a male-coded, old dude Ashera. Makes Yune's differences stand out more. Because I bet a lot of you didn't think too hard about how Yune is young and impulsive to represent the new, free-er world order while Ashera is supposed to represent the old order and the maturity and objectivism that comes with age. She doesn't look old because anime artists are even more afraid to draw an old woman than they are an old man. I would even contend that there being a gender difference between Ashunera's halves is more interesting than those halves being both female. Such an all powerful deity wouldn't concern themself about the beorc/laguz social construct of gender. Can I get a Hell Yeah from Kyza? That would be pretty cool, canonically non-binary (bi-gender?) origin deity Ashunera splitting into two halves. Would help to make the difference between the two halves even starker. 2 hours ago, Jotari said: Though I could see Yune as a hyperactive little boy (though I wouldn't trust him sharing a body with known groomer Micaiah!). "Actually, he's a thousand years old, so it's totally fine!" I would be so here for keet Yune. 2 hours ago, Jotari said: I also feel that if you were to make them different genders then Ashunera would have to look really androgynous. Seems like it'd be simple enough to make Ashunera less curvy. Maybe a slightly more masculine/androgynous hairstyle, too. IDK, it would probably depend on what changes we want to give Ashera and/or Yune. 7 hours ago, lenticular said: Change things so that female-Ashnard was actually the first-born child of the previous Daein king but wasn't heir because agnatic succession sucks, and I think that's suddenly a much more compelling character. See, this would actually be cool. A clear "I deserve to rule because I'm the strongest, regardless of what our stuffy old tradition says!" Very reminiscent of Kuvira in Legend of Korra. And actually give her a route to power that's not "blood pact magic LOL". 7 hours ago, lenticular said: Related aside: In this scenario, if we had male Almedha and his role in Radiant Dawn was kept the same, then I suspect he'd be a particularly hated character. I mean, it's not as if actual Almedha is beloved, but if we took all her character traits and personality and put them on a male character, then I don't see people reacting at all well.) I imqgine the same, unfortunately. Almedha fits into a lot of "doting/over-protective mother" tropes, that we don't see nearly as often for father characters. They exist, sure - Marlin from Finding Nemo, Chuckie's Dad from Rugrats - but less of a thing overall. Couple that with her grief when Pelleas dies - and expressions of grief/sadness being less tolerated in men - and we have the recipe for a character who's gonna hit really weirdly. 14 hours ago, Jotari said: a might is everything philsoophy would feel more subversive coming from a woman. To push back ever-so-slightly, let's remember that one of Tellius's heroes is Altina. And she was known not just for finesse with a sword, but raw strength as well - being able to dual-wield the heavy legendary blades, Ragnell and Alondite. This suggests that, at least in-universe to Tellius, great physical strength might not be as strongly tied to masculinity or maleness as in our own world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted Wednesday at 04:32 AM Author Share Posted Wednesday at 04:32 AM (edited) 2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: To push back ever-so-slightly, let's remember that one of Tellius's heroes is Altina. And she was known not just for finesse with a sword, but raw strength as well - being able to dual-wield the heavy legendary blades, Ragnell and Alondite. This suggests that, at least in-universe to Tellius, great physical strength might not be as strongly tied to masculinity or maleness as in our own world. The perceptions of gender within the world of the narrative is a whole other conversation, and potentially a way weirder one given the ubiquitous equal opportunity warfare culture every Fire Emblem game has. The existence of pegasus knights alone should change perceptions gender immensely. And, of course, the ability to literally fly (alongside warp magic) would also change society hugely. Fire Emblem societies as a whole are way more normal than they aught to be. Not that that is bad or anything. Â Â 2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Seems like it'd be simple enough to make Ashunera less curvy. Maybe a slightly more masculine/androgynous hairstyle, too. IDK, it would probably depend on what changes we want to give Ashera and/or Yune. You'll take your beared Ashunera and you'll like it. Edited Wednesday at 06:41 AM by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted yesterday at 12:54 AM Share Posted yesterday at 12:54 AM 20 hours ago, Jotari said: You'll take your beared Ashunera and you'll like it. Oh no They're gorgeous 20 hours ago, Jotari said: The perceptions of gender within the world of the narrative is a whole other conversation, and potentially a way weirder one given the ubiquitous equal opportunity warfare culture every Fire Emblem game has. The existence of pegasus knights alone should change perceptions gender immensely. And, of course, the ability to literally fly (alongside warp magic) would also change society hugely. Fire Emblem societies as a whole are way more normal than they aught to be. Not that that is bad or anything. Didn't the Elibe games say that affects things in Ilia? As in, the women there have unique opportunities for economic gain, and military particippation, as Pegasus Knights? Of course, it doesn't totally tip things into women's favor. We meet a few male Cavaliers and Mages from Ilia. Not to mention - the country's founder, Barigan, was a man. Look, what I'm trying to say is, "matriarchal empire with air superiority Ilia" is something we totally could've gotten, and we're all poorer for the lack of it. But hey, don't accuse me of being a Zealot (Zelots? Jerrot?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltosian Kadath Posted yesterday at 04:47 AM Share Posted yesterday at 04:47 AM On 10/29/2024 at 6:38 AM, Jotari said: Â I have nothing to say on Nergal, and slightly regretting committing myself to mentioning every villain. The sad fact about Nergal is that the most interesting thing about changing his gender is something that is hidden by the narrative. If you are closely following obscure information you can just barely piece together the truth about Nergal being a father denied a real relationship with his children, Ninian and Nils, first by their banishment to another world, and later by letting the part of his personality that cared about those kind of human connections being consumed by the dark magic that let him call his children to him. Changing Nergal into their mother would change the feel of that whole plot point, into something a bit crueler. Additionally Nergal's relationship with Kishuna, the artificial life he first imbued with a soul, and then abandoned would come across a bit differently with mother Nergal as well. Â On 10/29/2024 at 6:38 AM, Jotari said: Our other main antagonist is Lyon and I would say he would be one of the more difficult ones to gender swap as his gender does play a role into his characterization. Namely in how he doesn't feel like he's traditionally masculine enough and harbours jealousy for Ephraim. Plot beats that wouldn't really work in the same way if he were female. The way Lyon not being masculine enough is tied to whether or not he would be a competent ruler of Grado would make that plot beat still work with a female Lyon, but it would have this tragic twinge of cruel misogyny of whether or not (Lyon thinks) a woman is fit to be a ruler, and how masculine she has to become to rule the empire being part of what drove her to her tragic actions. Â On 10/29/2024 at 6:38 AM, Jotari said: Grima is already gender variable and I don't care about the other Awakening antagonists enough to mention them. The one interesting thing about reversing Grima's gender, would be that it would make them the opposite gender from Robin, which would imply one of two things, either that when Robin becomes Grima, it is such a fundamental change to them that they switch gender, which would really weaken the reveal about Robin kind of being Grima, or make it too explicit that this is a very different timeline from the one people are time traveling from. Honestly, I think either option would weaken Awakening's narrative by removing some amount of interesting ambiguity. Â On 10/29/2024 at 6:38 AM, Jotari said: I also have nothing of note to say about Anankos or Garon. The only thing that comes to mind for Garon, is that would make her a bit of a cliche evil step-mother to Corrin. Â On 10/29/2024 at 1:27 PM, lenticular said: It depends on how much gets changed. Consider Lyon, for example. If you made Lyon female but kept everything else the same so she was still secretly in love with Eirika and jealous of Ephraim, then that's a pretty interesting change. Queer characters are more common in games now, but for a 2004 game published by Nintendo that would have been a big deal. And the whole "I always loved you but never felt I could tell you" thing comes across very differently when there are conflicting sexualities involved. My queer ass would definitely find this version of female Lyon much more compelling than the actual Lyon that we got. On the other hand, if you do change female Lyon to be in love with Ephraim but jealous of Eirika, then I don't find that particularly interesting. Maybe it alters the dynamic of Eirika giving away the Sacred Stone a little bit, but probably not significantly. Oh yeah, lady Lyon still loving Eirika really would make the gender change far more interesting. Â 2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Oh no They're gorgeous Too true... Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted yesterday at 08:35 AM Author Share Posted yesterday at 08:35 AM (edited) 3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said: The sad fact about Nergal is that the most interesting thing about changing his gender is something that is hidden by the narrative. If you are closely following obscure information you can just barely piece together the truth about Nergal being a father denied a real relationship with his children, Ninian and Nils, first by their banishment to another world, and later by letting the part of his personality that cared about those kind of human connections being consumed by the dark magic that let him call his children to him. Changing Nergal into their mother would change the feel of that whole plot point, into something a bit crueler. Additionally Nergal's relationship with Kishuna, the artificial life he first imbued with a soul, and then abandoned would come across a bit differently with mother Nergal as well. I suppose Nergal creating life can be seen as a desperate attempt to get his children back, by making more of them, only they're facsimiles. It's not an aspect of him I've ever considered until just now thinking about a gender change but its still there with him as he is now. On the other hand, him being make gives more of a Dr Frankenstein vibe to him as he is doing something unnatural that shouldn't be done (of course this is just as much true if he were female, but woman creating life seems more in order if things even though men obviously do contribute to the whole baby making process). Edited yesterday at 08:36 AM by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted 20 hours ago Share Posted 20 hours ago (edited) Quote Duma is one of the more interesting cases because he actually has some theming going on related to his gender. He represents the traditionally masculine traits of aggression and strength while Mila represents the traditionally feminine traits of nurturing and love. This could still work with a gender swap as it would serve as a subversion of the traditional roles. I have to say I find the idea of Male Mila more interesting than Female Duma, as while I have seen a few female embodiment of war, I can't think of any real Male Mother Goddess (of course Mila herself isn't exactly 100% good either). Maybe not goddess, but many male jeigans seem to be nurturing. EDIT-A long time ago, I found a pic of various FE7 female characters, including Nino, with Athos beards (w/ a color scheme matching that character's initial hair color). Edited 20 hours ago by Original Alear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowFire Posted 20 hours ago Share Posted 20 hours ago On 10/29/2024 at 4:27 PM, lenticular said: Consider Lyon, for example. If you made Lyon female but kept everything else the same so she was still secretly in love with Eirika and jealous of Ephraim, then that's a pretty interesting change. Queer characters are more common in games now, but for a 2004 game published by Nintendo that would have been a big deal. There is some risk here, at least for 2004. Fire Emblem games aren't known for their long scripts, and people often fill in the blanks with the general trope space assumptions when given aloof swordsman #17. Now, I know that representation is representation which is cool & all and this includes villains, but "forbidden gay longing leads character to do something villainous and/or stupid" was generally a fairly unsympathetic trope Back In The Day. (See Agatha Christie's Nemesis, say, one of her lesser works.) That doesn't mean it can't be done well, of course, but doing it well requires more script space which is often in short supply in FEs. Quote  I think there's also extra potential for female Ashnard, if you're willing to make a few changes or additions. Change things so that female-Ashnard was actually the first-born child of the previous Daein king but wasn't heir because agnatic succession sucks, and I think that's suddenly a much more compelling character. I think this would cut a bit against theme. Female Ashnard is fine but to keep the more interesting side of base-Ashnard, I think her place in any reasonable succession should still be low. Ashnard has a chip on their shoulder and favors skill / power over simple descent. "I was almost king/queen but was WRONGED" is a very classic trope but it's one that is reinforcing of a deferential monarchy, not against it - monarchs ruling by dint of birth order is fine, it's just unfair the incorrect person was picked in this view. Ashnard knows their place in the order was bad in the old system, which is why they had to smash it and kill a bunch of people. (Of course, this is assuming changes, and a character who is fine with royalty but wants strict primogeniture is fine too. Just that's Cersei from Game of Thrones.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenticular Posted 17 hours ago Share Posted 17 hours ago 2 hours ago, SnowFire said: There is some risk here, at least for 2004. Fire Emblem games aren't known for their long scripts, and people often fill in the blanks with the general trope space assumptions when given aloof swordsman #17. Now, I know that representation is representation which is cool & all and this includes villains, but "forbidden gay longing leads character to do something villainous and/or stupid" was generally a fairly unsympathetic trope Back In The Day. (See Agatha Christie's Nemesis, say, one of her lesser works.) That doesn't mean it can't be done well, of course, but doing it well requires more script space which is often in short supply in FEs. There definitely is a risk, in this sort of hypothetical conversation, to imagine the best possible version of how things might have played out, whereas the actual reality would have been significantly crapper. If actual real IS and actual real Nintendo had done this in actual real 2004, then I don't doubt that what they would have come up with would make me cringe and rage in equal measure. But! I'm also pretty sure that, had I played this version of SacSto back in the day, I absolutely would have latched onto this version of Lyon, even if she was terribly written. I can be pretty confident in saying this, because I absolutely did latch onto Heather just a few years later in Radiant Dawn, and she is also terribly written. I think it would also help that Lyon is generally supposed to be more of a tragic figure than an outright villain. Lyon's-body-controlled-by-Fomortis is definitely a villain, but (from memory, and it's been a while since I played) actual Lyon himself never was. You could say that he was stupid, and I wouldn't argue with you, but I don't think it would have come across as "being gay made her stupid". Though, again, it's hard to say when we're working so deep into hypotheticals. But I will say that personally, 2004 me would have found "queer girl has a crush on her straight best friend and makes an ass out of herself" extremely relatable. And yes, I do acknowledge that I would have been in an extreme minority there among Fire Emblem's 2004 audience. 3 hours ago, SnowFire said: I think this would cut a bit against theme. Female Ashnard is fine but to keep the more interesting side of base-Ashnard, I think her place in any reasonable succession should still be low. Ashnard has a chip on their shoulder and favors skill / power over simple descent. "I was almost king/queen but was WRONGED" is a very classic trope but it's one that is reinforcing of a deferential monarchy, not against it - monarchs ruling by dint of birth order is fine, it's just unfair the incorrect person was picked in this view. Ashnard knows their place in the order was bad in the old system, which is why they had to smash it and kill a bunch of people. I don't think this necessarily has to be the case. I'm imagining it less as "I was almost queen" and more as "I could never have been queen" (that is, it was an absolute agnatic succession system rather than just a male-preference system). And also less as "I want to slightly tweak the system so it benefits me" and more "I want to completely tear up the system and replace it with something else". But again, we're knee-deep in hypotheticals, so it's easy to imagine good implementations and terrible implementations. The devil's in the details, and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etrurian emperor Posted 10 hours ago Share Posted 10 hours ago If Thales was gender swapped he'd probably just be Patricia which would have been for the best. Her convincing Dimitri she loves him like her own just to lead him to slaughter, as well as loving Edelgard purely as a research project would make for a very despicable villain. That warped idea of motherhood would also nicely contrast Rhea's loony but very genuine desire for family relationship. And lets face it. Even a drunk mountain goat would be an improvement over Thales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltosian Kadath Posted 10 hours ago Share Posted 10 hours ago 6 hours ago, lenticular said: There definitely is a risk, in this sort of hypothetical conversation, to imagine the best possible version of how things might have played out, whereas the actual reality would have been significantly crapper. If actual real IS and actual real Nintendo had done this in actual real 2004, then I don't doubt that what they would have come up with would make me cringe and rage in equal measure. But! I'm also pretty sure that, had I played this version of SacSto back in the day, I absolutely would have latched onto this version of Lyon, even if she was terribly written. I can be pretty confident in saying this, because I absolutely did latch onto Heather just a few years later in Radiant Dawn, and she is also terribly written. Thanks to a remarkable coincidence of timing, I have a good guess for how it would have been handled by IS and Nintendo thanks to how the two companies handled LGBT+ characters in another game of theirs that also released in 2004, Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door. In that case it was transgender representation with Vivian, and generally seen as fairly well done representation (especially for 2004) in the Japanese version, but censored entirely out of the English translation. It wouldn't surprise me if the same happened to our fictional lesbian Lyon. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted 9 hours ago Author Share Posted 9 hours ago 52 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said: If Thales was gender swapped he'd probably just be Patricia which would have been for the best. Her convincing Dimitri she loves him like her own just to lead him to slaughter, as well as loving Edelgard purely as a research project would make for a very despicable villain. That warped idea of motherhood would also nicely contrast Rhea's loony but very genuine desire for family relationship. And lets face it. Even a drunk mountain goat would be an improvement over Thales. Would Thales still disguise herself as her own brother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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