OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

Logic or no, I'm surprised that people still argue FE10, considering at least 2/3 of the list eventually becomes useless.

Yeah, imagine my not-surprise when the topic got bumped up again by yet ANOTHER Who is the Worst Unit in FE10 Contest, followed with "Well, doesn't Kurth suck?".

In short, I honestly don't see anything changing on this list for the next...Millenium, which point the human race will be destroyed by, you guessed it, radioactive giant mimes.

[Colonel M]

It just happened in FE9.

I honestly am not surprised anymore.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Colonel M

[Starwave]

Can re-name "The greatest unit in the entire universe tier" into "Seth's grandson" tier? Because Sothe is pretty seth-like in how useful he is in the game... of course he's nowhere near as good as Seth was in FE8 (due to diluted blood and a shaky lineage).

(not really serious, just adding a bit of levity)

Edited May 21, 2012 by Starwave

[Vorena]

I still do not understand why Titania is so high up. Is it mostly for her combat and availability?

[-Cynthia-]

I still do not understand why Titania is so high up. Is it mostly for her combat and availability?

Yes. Also having a horse is still a benefit over foot units in most maps, the high Mov and Canto are quite useful especially when you have good combat to back it up.

[Starwave]

A few things:

Why on earth is Heather in middle tier? She's actually a liability on her joining chapter since you need to go out of your way to recruit her, she is pretty much useless on said chapter since she is only capable of stealing from a few targets and in general she can't steal anything because of her awful strength / growth. And that is my fundamental problem with Heather, she's incapable of doing her job. I am aware of that you can BEXP abuse to bring her to up to speed where she can actually start "stealing" (that strength stat growth is vomit worthy)

She has part II / III / IV, but aside from part II, and maybe a few chapters part III (if her strength allows her to steal) then there is next to no reason to use her. At no point should she be above Soren (hell, Soren with a transfer no less) but i'm not willing to argue his point of view yet. She should be lower middle / low tier.

[Florete]

Tiering thief utility is hard as it is, but "liability?" Come on, recruiting her and having her help is not hard. Plus, recruitment isn't taken as a negative on this list. As for being able to steal stuff, her base 15 Str is enough to steal almost anything you might want her to, which is mostly stat boosters (which weigh nothing).

[Gryz]

Heather's usefulness is solely judged on her thief utility such as stealing, finding hidden treasure easily, and night vision. Rating thief skills against the other units whose primary goal is to kill things is always going to be kind of wonky and awkward.

I think you're overblowing the strength-and-stealing issue. Her strength isn't a factor when stealing items like the Dracoshield and Energy Drop. I think pretty much everyone assumes she's not stealing any stuff through Disarm since the skill activation isn't reliable.

Besides, it's not like Soren has super amazing combat. So I don't think it's a big stretch to put the unique things Heather can do over a meh combat unit like him.

[Starwave]

Tiering thief utility is hard as it is, but "liability?" Come on, recruiting her and having her help is not hard. Plus, recruitment isn't taken as a negative on this list. As for being able to steal stuff, her base 15 Str is enough to steal almost anything you might want her to, which is mostly stat boosters (which weigh nothing).

Liability was probably a mistake on my part. I should have used a pain, but it honestly wasn't the crux of my argument.

Even if you consider her ability to steal stat boosters (which if I recall correctly, the enemies that carried said stat boosters were sort out of your way, which meant you had to body guard heather and get her into position)

Even with all of that, she seems like a very mediocre unit. She can't be used for combat in part 2, and in part 3 I can't even think of a time where you'd want to use her. I guess if you wanted to steal stat boosters, but I don't think the game is hard enough to necessitate going out of your way to bring out Heather in order to steal them. Surely you take her performance in part IV into account as well...?

PS: Can you list any notable enemies that have stat boosters that are capable of being stolen in part 3?

Edited May 27, 2012 by Starwave

[Florete]

Mid tier kind of is the "mediocre" area.

Part 4 performance is generally not weighed heavily because of the lower difficulty on account of easily having plenty of good units to get you through the maps and increased experience gain from enemies. Point being, while Heather's part 4 definitely isn't doing her any favors, it alone is not going to bring her down on the list.

PS: Can you list any notable enemies that have stat boosters that are capable of being stolen in part 3?

Just the 3-5 Energy Drop, I think.

Note that I am not opposed to Heather moving down myself. It's very true that even her thief utility is pretty lacking due to the locations of stat boosters and the fact that the chapters they are in can generally be beaten faster than she can reasonably steal the item. Increased chance to find hidden items on the ground is also helpful, but others can still find the stuff and many of the potential items aren't that great.

Rescue is pretty amazing, though. I might say she should stay > Soren if only just for that.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Madam Red

[Starwave]

Ah that makes sense. I've been around too many conventional tier lists (IE 5 tier lists) were mid is usually the middle. I guess middle tier is a good fit for her I suppose. Apples and oranges I guess.

Just the 3-5 Energy Drop, I think.

Note that I am not opposed to Heather moving down myself. It's very true that even her thief utility is pretty lacking due to the locations of stat boosters and the fact that the chapters they are in can generally be beaten faster than she can reasonably steal the item. Increased chance to find hidden items on the ground is also helpful, but others can still find the stuff and many of the potential items aren't that great.

Rescue is pretty amazing, though. I might say she should stay > Soren if only just for that.

Fair enough.

I appreciate the fact that you told me which chapters her thieving came in useful, and how you offered an opposing perspective... i'm too used to gamefaqs heh.

I think i'll drop the issue.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Starwave

[Chiki]

Ike should drop to the top of top tier. He is very good, but he's stuck to swords and has crappy 2-range for a good portion of the game and only 7 move. He's nothing compared to Haar, so I don't see why they're on the same tier.

Jill with transfers should go above Mia, but stay in high tier. Mia vs. Jill is essentially the same issue as Ike vs. Haar. Jill has 2 move, flight and axes over Mia, and availability in chapters where it truly counts (the GMs don't really need Mia, whereas Jill is insanely helpful in a team full of weaklings, especially with Beastfoe in 3-6). Jill is also the only flier for the DB in Part 3, and a couple chapters in Part 1. She has lame bases, but they're not too difficult to get up to par with some nice transfers. The transfers really do make a huge difference.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Jushiro

[Starwave]

No Ike is absolutely top tier. You're looking at him in a vacuum, you should take into account that:

- This tier list was made for hard mode. Ike is one of the few units that can actually get ganged up on and still make it out alive, so can leave him parked in certain areas to soak up hits and tank enemy attacks. He's one of your stronger attackers (which is ideal in HM when enemies are almost always better than your units statistically)

-Ragnell is a infinite use sword with 18 MT that can attack at a range. You act like 2 range is crappy, but who on earth on the GM has 2 ranges? Soren? Haar/Titania/etc when they use Hand Axes/ Short Axes, weapons that are not only weaker but have finite use? Why would you say thats crappy at all? In what way?!? Furthermore Ragnell gives Ike a hefty defense bonus, and he ends up being extremely difficult to kill on the right terrain.

-Statistically he's a monster. His bases are outrageous and he's capping most of his stats, with BEXP brings up the rest (speed especially!). Res will never be good, but keeping him out of range from being attacked by mages is ideal.

I'm in agreement with the rest of your post though.

I would like to question why Gareth is above Kurthnaga. Did um... Kurthnaga steal your lunch money? Why on earth is he that low? We're not on gamefaqs, so i'm disregarding the "HE BECOMES SUPER BEAST LATER ON" but Gareth is literally on usable for 2 chapters, and his opponents use magic attacks. His high defense is worthless, and he'll get preyed on his weaker Res stat. Offensively he's irrelevant. Is Blood Tide that important? Ena is forced so you might as well use her, and I don't think a second blood tide user will really make a difference.

Also, did you guys forget Kurth's utility in 4-E-3? He makes it less of a nightmare in hard mode, and if you raise him up properly he can actually do passable damage (though he'll never ever double... pity). Night Tide is nowhere is useful as Blood Tide, but its got a niche (and somewhat useful early on).

My point is, if Kurth is bottom tier Gareth is sure as hell bottom tier as well. (i'd even argue that Kurth's utility in 4-E-3 alone / forced deployment makes him a candidate for bottom, but I digress. Its not the point i'm trying to make.)

Edited June 7, 2012 by Starwave

[Chiki]

- This tier list was made for hard mode. Ike is one of the few units that can actually get ganged up on and still make it out alive, so can leave him parked in certain areas to soak up hits and tank enemy attacks.

Most of the GMs can pull this off. Maybe not to the same extent as Ike can, but Boyd can pull it off as well, and cause more damage thanks to having much better 2-range (at least until Ike gets Ragnell). So can Titania, Gatrie, Haar, etc.

He's one of your stronger attackers (which is ideal in HM when enemies are almost always better than your units statistically)

His ability to dish out damage is still nothing compared to Haar's, because of lack of good 2-range until the Ragnell.

Ragnell is a infinite use sword with 18 MT that can attack at a range. You act like 2 range is crappy, but who on earth on the GM has 2 ranges? Soren? Haar/Titania/etc when they use Hand Axes/ Short Axes, weapons that are not only weaker but have finite use? Why would you say thats crappy at all? In what way?!? Furthermore Ragnell gives Ike a hefty defense bonus, and he ends up being extremely difficult to kill on the right terrain.

Having infinite use is irrelevant. You get plenty of money in this game contrary to popular belief (just give GMs a Blue Gem via Ilyana on Part 1) giving you plenty of overpowered Hand Axe forges. Hand Axe forges have at most 4 less might (could be less with a Coin) than Ragnell, but they're around for much longer, and Titania, Haar and Boyd will likely be promoted by the time Ike gets Ragnell, so they have equal, if not more ability to do damage than Ike with Ragnell does.

Statistically he's a monster. His bases are outrageous and he's capping most of his stats, with BEXP brings up the rest (speed especially!). Res will never be good, but keeping him out of range from being attacked by mages is ideal.

So he's like a Haar with swords, no flight and 7 move. Haar has axes, flight and 2 more move and Ike is simply right below Haar? Despite Haar having superior availability?

Edited June 7, 2012 by Jushiro

[Starwave]

So Ike is suddenly not top tier because of he's "not as good as Haar?" Sorry it's kind of a tough pill to swallow to be honest. I wouldn't even say he's like Haar since Ike is actually fast enough to double the majority of the enemies in this game, and Haar is rarely doubling enemies, even with speed wing and BEXP abuse. I'm not trying to downplay him though, he really is THAT GOOD. But not being as a good as Haar really isn't that bad when you really think about it.

I'll admit Ike gets Ragnell a little into Part III, but I don't think his performance before that period of time is enough to dock him. Once he gets it though, all bets are off and he's one of your best units of choice from that point until the end of the game, which should factor in imo.

EDIT: What she said :?

Edited June 7, 2012 by Starwave

[Florete]

He's nothing compared to Haar, so I don't see why they're on the same tier.

They're not. Only transferred Ike is in the same tier. So you're arguing against an Ike with +2 Str, Skl, Spd, Def, Res, and +5 HP.

Most of the GMs can pull this off. Maybe not to the same extent as Ike can, but Boyd can pull it off as well, and cause more damage thanks to having much better 2-range (at least until Ike gets Ragnell). So can Titania, Gatrie, Haar, etc.

Boyd doesn't actually have great durability. He's prone to being doubled and his Def takes time to build up. The others are good, though.

Having infinite use is irrelevant.

Well, not really. It means it will never run out mid-map, which is pretty important especially for part 4 chapters where he can tank multiple enemies per turn.

You get plenty of money in this game contrary to popular belief

That is not contrary to popular belief on this forum.

So he's like a Haar with swords, no flight and 7 move. Haar has axes, flight and 2 more move and Ike is simply right below Haar? Despite Haar having superior availability?

Haar does not have superior availability.

I'd be willing to agree with Haar a tier over Ike (T) if he didn't have his own, however minor, problems, and those are magic in general (but especially Thunder) and needing a Speedwing. Ike (T), on the other hand, despite not having the same utility, is just an offensive monster that never loses steam as long as the player is smart with BEXP, and just absolutely wrecks faces with Ragnell.

[Chiki]

So Ike is suddenly not top tier because of he's "not as good as Haar?"

I think he's nearer Titania than he is to Haar in usefulness, that's all.

Also, Haar is easily capable of doubling with a Speedwing and/or transfer.

They're not. Only transferred Ike is in the same tier. So you're arguing against an Ike with +2 Str, Skl, Spd, Def, Res, and +5 HP.

So what? Ike may have fantastic bases, but that doesn't make up for what he lacks over Haar. No flight, 7 move and no good weapons until 3-11.

Boyd doesn't actually have great durability. He's prone to being doubled and his Def takes time to build up. The others are good, though.

In my post, I state "not to the same extent as [ike] can." Certainly, Boyd doesn't have amazing durability, but it definitely isn't that awful. I'm just pointing out that Ike's bulkyness isn't all that noteworthy.

Well, not really. It means it will never run out mid-map, which is pretty important especially for part 4 chapters where he can tank multiple enemies per turn.

Anyone is likely to fill the convoy with millions of Hand Axe forges to avoid that kind of situation. They don't even cost that much; besides, what else are you going to spend money on, other than a few rare items in the Shop?

I'd be willing to agree with Haar a tier over Ike (T) if he didn't have his own, however minor, problems, and those are magic in general (but especially Thunder)

Which is basically solved with Resolve + Pure Water, and to a lesser extent Nullify.

Haar does not have superior availability.

Quality > quantity. Haar's availability in 2-P and 2-E is much better than Ike's availability in 3-P and 3-1.

on the other hand, despite not having the same utility, is just an offensive monster

Offense isn't as meaningful without Haar's amazing utility.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Jushiro

[Florete]

So what? Ike may have fantastic bases, but that doesn't make up for what he lacks over Haar. No flight, 7 move and no good weapons until 3-11.

So there's a difference. That's what. Ike(T) is a significant boost over Ike(N).

In my post, I state "not to the same extent as [ike] can." Certainly, Boyd doesn't have amazing durability, but it definitely isn't that awful. I'm just pointing out that Ike's bulkyness isn't all that noteworthy.

It's a pretty significant difference here. Ike wins 4 HP, 8 Def, and 1 Res with +14 total avoid and 7 AS. Ike is nearly doubling enemies that double Boyd.

Have you ever used an Ike with this transfer?

Anyone is likely to fill the convoy with millions of Hand Axe forges to avoid that kind of situation. They don't even cost that much; besides, what else are you going to spend money on, other than a few rare items in the Shop?

This was a minor point from the beginning; there aren't many situations where infinite uses makes a significant difference given the amount of money we have and items slots every unit can use. I only pointed it out because it is not irrelevant.

Which is basically solved with Resolve + Pure Water, and to a lesser extent Nullify.

Resolve and Nullify cannot be combined. Pure Water takes extra turns. Resolve and Nullify also take extra capacity that can't be used for other things like Celerity and only give Haar things Ike doesn't have to worry about already.

I don't remember what we decided on Resolve, but I think it was staying with the DB since Haar is getting a Speedwing. Nullify isn't even always acquired in the first place and is kind of a waste even if you do get it.

Quality > quantity. Haar's availability in 2-P and 2-E is much better than Ike's availability in 3-P and 3-1.

Availability is simply the number of chapters. How they use it determines who is better.

In any case, Haar's availability in 2-P is literally worthless. 2-E is really valuable, but about equal to Ike's 3-P and 3-1 when considering Elincia is already around.

Offense isn't as meaningful without Haar's amazing utility.

No crap. I thought I'd implied that. Notice Haar is > Ike(T).

[dondon151]

i don't personally think that ike(T) has a significant advantage over ike(N). if anything, it's just overkill; ike(N) does well enough as is.

[Chiki]

So there's a difference. That's what. Ike(T) is a significant boost over Ike(N).

Maybe in terms of Ike's offense and defense, but is that really meaningful, considering that Ike only has 7 move, no Canto and no flight? Just because Ike has omgwtf base stats doesn't mean he has good utility for an efficiency run. That is just rookie level thinking.

It's a pretty significant difference here. Ike wins 4 HP, 8 Def, and 1 Res with +14 total avoid and 7 AS. Ike is nearly doubling enemies that double Boyd.

Have you ever used an Ike with this transfer?

Just saying, but it's a straw man to presuppose without substantiation that I was talking about Boyd without transfers just to make my position look weak. One should be given the benefit of the doubt. With transfers, the difference becomes much less significant.

Yes I have, twice actually. Nothing but overkill.

This was a minor point from the beginning; there aren't many situations where infinite uses makes a significant difference given the amount of money we have and items slots every unit can use. I only pointed it out because it is not irrelevant.

So minor it is in practice completely irrelevant.

Resolve and Nullify cannot be combined. Pure Water takes extra turns. Resolve and Nullify also take extra capacity that can't be used for other things like Celerity and only give Haar things Ike doesn't have to worry about already.

I am well aware they cannot be combined, but if Haar is in a situation where he doesn't need Resolve and only Nullify, then by all means he can take it instead.

Pure Waters can be effectively used even in the best of the best efficiency playthroughs. In practice, that loss of a turn can be mitigated with Reyson, and sometimes you don't even have to kill an enemy to progress.

Celerity on Haar is only really that important in chapters like 3-5 and 3-11. In those chapters, Haar has more than enough time to use Pure Waters.

I don't remember what we decided on Resolve, but I think it was staying with the DB since Haar is getting a Speedwing. Nullify isn't even always acquired in the first place and is kind of a waste even if you do get it.

No Resolve? That is very strange. Resolve is essential for a quick clear of 3-3, for example.

Availability is simply the number of chapters. How they use it determines who is better.

In any case, Haar's availability in 2-P is literally worthless. 2-E is really valuable, but about equal to Ike's 3-P and 3-1 when considering Elincia is already around.

Haar can help weaken the boss for Marcia, which in turn helps Marcia have better stats for 2-3 and 3-9, where she has unique utility.

No crap. I thought I'd implied that. Notice Haar is > Ike(T).

But there's barely even a difference. You're implying that the utility isn't really all that significant, but it is.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Jushiro

[Espinosa]

I've been wondering, is Jill (N/T) still the best candidate for all your DB resources (and not, say, Volug, Sothe or Nolan) if one goes for low turns? Without transfers, she's doing kinda poorly when she joins.

[Florete]

It's the Spd transfer that makes a significant difference immediately and the HP and Skl transfers that make a difference later on. 25 Spd gets a lot of enemies 23 doesn't, and HP and Skl getting quick caps make BEXP buffing his other stats simple, allowing him to wreck harder than ever before while never dying. He didn't exactly have poor durability without the transfer, but there are many more situations you can put him in with the transfer, and his ability double is basically never an issue.

[Chiki]

I've been wondering, is Jill (N/T) still the best candidate for all your DB resources (and not, say, Volug, Sothe or Nolan) if one goes for low turns? Without transfers, she's doing kinda poorly when she joins.

By far. You should be giving her your Seraph Robe, Dracoshield, Energy Drop, Beastfoe etc. for 3-6 training.

[Espinosa]

By far. You should be giving her your Seraph Robe, Dracoshield, Energy Drop, Beastfoe etc. for 3-6 training.

Ah, I see. I always give all this stuff minus the robe (which I sell) to Volug since he gets double the stats from those boosts.

[dondon151]

No Resolve? That is very strange. Resolve is essential for a quick clear of 3-3, for example.

isn't 3-3 the burn supplies chapter? since when did you need resolve there?

By far. You should be giving her your Seraph Robe, Dracoshield, Energy Drop, Beastfoe etc. for 3-6 training.

paragon is a better investment than beastfoe

you end up getting more EXP than you would with beastfoe and you clear the chapter faster by giving beastfoe to a unit with more potent offense