-Cynthia- Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 (edited) Also, while the SMs don't do great damage to Aran, their chances to crit are pretty substantial. For example, the 4-1 SM has 34 Crit(assuming Narga is right about Part 4 enemy crit boosts and I'm inclined to believe him from PE), Aran only has 14 Lck at 20/10/1, so his chances of getting critted are very substantial, especially when he's doubled. Considering Halbs, Warriors, and Snipers also get crit boosts, Aran's durability(as well as several others with low Lck) is shakier come Part 4. Edited August 9, 2009 by -Cynthia- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Blughagh! Fine...He can drop somewhere to...perhaps Mid, below..Muarim at least, or like below Brom.... Somewhere in mid, dammit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Blughagh! Fine...He can drop somewhere to...perhaps Mid, below..Muarim at least, or like below Brom.... Somewhere in mid, dammit. I don't mind mid. He's not that bad. Just a liability during raising and then a decent part 3 and then a useless part 4. All in all, his potential for slightly superior durability in part 3 and easier to train part 1 than Ed should be enough to spare him from lower mid, although there is the whole 11 crit cats and tigers in 3-6 thing. He's got a pretty good chance of being immune to those by 20/2 though, and a lot of units run a higher risk of clearing space than Aran does of getting critted. Anyway, I don't think anyone is considering dropping him into lower mid, don't know why you mentioned it as if you are trying to save him from that fate. I could see Tauroneo > Aran > Brom, since Brom is mostly about defence as well, and the GMs need his defence less than the DBs want defence. It's just the whole Volug + Tauroneo + Zihark (in 1-6) + Muarim + Vika (in 1-7) + Sothe and Zihark in 1-8 (more mages on the right than in most places and Aran and mages are not a good combo for him) + Nailah/Black Knight/Muarim in 1-E thing. There is just so much that Aran's potential of having a durability lead on the lower tiers in part 1 doesn't seem so relevant anymore, since he gets pushed into the average by them anyway. Plus there are only 3 pure water uses until 3-7, and Haar might want some of it and Sothe in 1-5 and Volug in 1-6-2 and I'd rather stick it on Sothe or Zihark in 1-8 than Aran, so he's basically out of luck for the 1-8 area around the boss. Come to think of it, since Sothe can actually have a forged ranged weapon he is far more reliable offensively in 1-8 than Zihark is, and similar durability given Z's looking at a C support at this time. Sothe is quite good in 1-8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 It was just because I have seen how reactive people get around here over the ever-so-loveable soldiers... Anyways, anyone think Brom could stand to go above Taur? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_____ Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 (edited) Does Mist really > Aran? The only thing she really has on him is healing and a mount, the latter of which, assuming she promotes in 4-1, she can't make use of for 6 of the 7 maps she has it. Mist takes a lot more than Aran to become decent, and she never really becomes on par with most of your combat units, while Aran is doing decently in late Part 1 and is the upper half of your units in the DB Part 3 chapters. Edited August 9, 2009 by Ninji Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 He could top Mid? I dunno, he could always bottom out upper mid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 9, 2009 Author Share Posted August 9, 2009 It was just because I have seen how reactive people get around here over the ever-so-loveable soldiers... Anyways, anyone think Brom could stand to go above Taur? I would support Brom > Tauroneo, but I'm pretty sure the opposite was proven in the past. And about Aran, I never saw him dropping to Mid. I find him and Boyd rather even, so I'd think they can be buddies on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_____ Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Oh, yeah, I can definitely see Mordecai > Aran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Does Mist really > Aran? The only thing she really has on him is healing and a mount, the latter of which, assuming she promotes in 4-1, she can't make use of for 6 of the 7 maps she has it. Mist takes a lot more than Aran to become decent, and she never really becomes on par with most of your combat units, while Aran is doing decently in late Part 1 and is the upper half of your units in the DB Part 3 chapters. But all of 4-E lets her have full move, so why 6 out of 7? Even in 4-4 she at least has gained canto, so she can attack and move out of harm's way even if she has the same move, or get into a more favourable vigor position for Rafiel. The map is a rout so somebody has to go east to kill things and they'll need healing support. Plus we have Rhys to go up and restore staff the unit that gets put to sleep, and we can have physics (stealing + aimee's bargains) so she can heal units in the other section anyway. She gets plenty of use out of the horse in 4-4 and isn't hurt by the inability to climb ledges. Not saying Mist > Aran, just saying she gets plenty from that horse when she's around. He could top Mid? I dunno, he could always bottom out upper mid. And about Aran, I never saw him dropping to Mid. I find him and Boyd rather even, so I'd think they can be buddies on the list. I was always assuming Aran vs. Boyd duking it out for not being the bottom of upper mid, even said it a couple of weeks ago when the Aran subject was last brought up. Not that that's where I think he should go, just figured that's where he makes sense based on the way things are going. It was just because I have seen how reactive people get around here over the ever-so-loveable soldiers... Anyways, anyone think Brom could stand to go above Taur? I would support Brom > Tauroneo, but I'm pretty sure the opposite was proven in the past. I don't know when, hopefully someone who argued about that would let us know why. Oh, yeah, I can definitely see Mordecai > Aran. Easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 It was just because I have seen how reactive people get around here over the ever-so-loveable soldiers... Anyways, anyone think Brom could stand to go above Taur? I would support Brom > Tauroneo, but I'm pretty sure the opposite was proven in the past. And about Aran, I never saw him dropping to Mid. I find him and Boyd rather even, so I'd think they can be buddies on the list. Well let's look it over. How does Taur benefit his team exactly? Part 1, he's unnecessarily strong for 1 chapter, and the chapter is rather easy. Nothing really jumps out at you here. He then vanishes until 3-12. 3-12, he basically is standing at the ridge and blocking people from moving up. Only advantage he has is he's there first, as anyone with range could do this job just as well. 3-13, anyone can be a wall if they got a vulnery or a healer, as Taur just needing less healing wouldn't help much in a chapter where everyone is defending anyways. Hell, Aran has a way to do this job better than Taur anyways, nor does Taur have various utility like healing, being a built up support partner, or crossbow access, or ballistae use. He's kind of a one trick pony. Part 4...When are armor knights ever good part 4? Part 2, Brom is much more helpful right off the bat, being the only thing keeping Neph alive. He's got tanking down rivaling the likes of Mordy and Haar. Another thing is in his chapters, it's not exactly high numbers in your ranks. His abilities will be of great use. Brom's Part 2 beats the shit out of Taur's part 1. Part 3...Yeah, Brom's gotta deal with a stronger team, but he has the advantage of a water afinity and all the time in the world to put it to good use. Know who would love Water Boost that's quite fast? Nephenee. What lets her suck less faster, the better. On top of that, he's still damn hard to kill. Not the best, but he's got all the time in the world. Both are pretty average here, and I'd consider it a tie. Taur's dealing with greater enemies, but Brom is being beneficial to his team overall. PArt 4....Yeah... So basically, I'd just sum it up that Brom's part 2 simply wins it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 I think bottom of Upper Mid would be a good place for Aran. We generally count 1-6(1) and 1-6(2) as 2 chapters, so Taur has 2 chapters of being the best unit, Brom only has 1. Brom is fairly useful for the rest of Part 2, but is outclassed by several and is far from necessary, so let's call it a tie. Tauroneo's Part 3 is better than Brom's. Even though it isn't as many chapters, Tauroneo is much better in comparison to the DB than Brom is to the GMs, sort of how we consider Volug's part 3 better than Boyd's. The DB is is need of highly durable units, and Tauroneo does better durably than everyone on the team. The GMs are very durable and don't need a low Mov unit with mediocre attack that never doubles. Both of them aren't very good Part 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_____ Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 But all of 4-E lets her have full move, so why 6 out of 7? Even in 4-4 she at least has gained canto, so she can attack and move out of harm's way even if she has the same move, or get into a more favourable vigor position for Rafiel. The map is a rout so somebody has to go east to kill things and they'll need healing support. Plus we have Rhys to go up and restore staff the unit that gets put to sleep, and we can have physics (stealing + aimee's bargains) so she can heal units in the other section anyway. She gets plenty of use out of the horse in 4-4 and isn't hurt by the inability to climb ledges. Not saying Mist > Aran, just saying she gets plenty from that horse when she's around. Wait, 4-E doesn't count as an indoor chapter? Ignore that, then. The thing seems mostly resolved now, so it doesn't really matter, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I think bottom of Upper Mid would be a good place for Aran. We generally count 1-6(1) and 1-6(2) as 2 chapters, so Taur has 2 chapters of being the best unit, Brom only has 1. Brom is fairly useful for the rest of Part 2, but is outclassed by several and is far from necessary, so let's call it a tie. We might, but the game doesn't. Still, it's generally longer and has more enemies than 2-1, and is almost long enough to cancel both 2-1 and 2-2, since 2-2 itself is a little short. Tauroneo's Part 3 is better than Brom's. Even though it isn't as many chapters, Tauroneo is much better in comparison to the DB than Brom is to the GMs, sort of how we consider Volug's part 3 better than Boyd's. The DB is is need of highly durable units, and Tauroneo does better durably than everyone on the team. The GMs are very durable and don't need a low Mov unit with mediocre attack that never doubles. Both of them aren't very good Part 4. Well, Brom has actual defence making him pretty useful in 4-5 against tigers, even if his movement prevents him from helping much after turn 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charmander6000 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Brom's part 3 is okay. He 2RKO pretty much everyone and with this being hard mode not many units on Ike's team are fast enough to double and ORKO until late part 3. Seriously the only units that are doubling most of part 3 are Nephenee, Heather, Shinon, crowned Gatrie, Mia, Ranulf, Janaff and Ulki. The others either need a speedwing or don't start doubling until later in the part. Also the ones that can double some are having trouble ORKOing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 ^What about Ike? Otherwise, yes, a lot of units have doubling troubles, but I'm pretty sure Brom doesn't 2 round everything either because of meh Str. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 ^What about Ike? Otherwise, yes, a lot of units have doubling troubles, but I'm pretty sure Brom doesn't 2 round everything either because of meh Str. You're correct, Generals and Dracos won't get 2RKOD, and Paladins and Halberdiers are often missed as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Doesn't he have pole axes for the higher damage and Hammer for the armors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 ^What about Ike? Otherwise, yes, a lot of units have doubling troubles, but I'm pretty sure Brom doesn't 2 round everything either because of meh Str. You're correct, Generals and Dracos won't get 2RKOD, and Paladins and Halberdiers are often missed as well. I can't imagine him taking out warriors either, considering in 3-4 he needs 37 mt to 2RKO and 38 mt for one of them. 21 str is lvl 7 so I guess he can pull it off on the weaker ones with a max mt forge, though. By 3-11 he needs 41 mt just for the snipers to 2RKO them, and 25 str is happening at lvl 17. He's basically borderline his entire existence for Warriors and Snipers. Halbs are pretty much 3RKO forever and paladins are pretty much borderline forever like the snipers and warriors. Still, the halbs and any snipers/warriors he doesn't 2HKO are basically 2 rounded with any useful combination of him and another unit. The thing is, since he isn't doubling anyone that does double but 3HKOs instead of 2HKOs and not doubling is doing much better because of potential skill activations or masteries (hawks) or crit. Basically, the others are far more likely to one round than he is, no matter what you give him. @ pretty boi wolf, the mt calcs I did there are with a max mt forged steel. He isn't getting anything stronger until part 4. Also, even if you give him a hammer he isn't OHKOing since the armors have more def than he has str, and as such take <40 damage so they don't die. (Hammer is 13 x 3 + str - def, so they live since they have enough hp. Obviously almost anyone can kill them after, but the same applies to a lot of combinations of 2 units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Doesn't he have pole axes for the higher damage and Hammer for the armors? I was considering Brom with a max Mt forge, with a poleax he's missing on Pallies and Halbs even more, and is running into some hit issues. He can hammer armors, but we do have a lack of Hammers overall, he has a lot of competition for it(Titania, Gatrie, Boyd, Haar, and it had to be shipped over from the DB or CRKs anyway), and gives him worse hit issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Doesn't he have pole axes for the higher damage and Hammer for the armors? I was considering Brom with a max Mt forge, with a poleax he's missing on Pallies and Halbs even more, and is running into some hit issues. He can hammer armors, but we do have a lack of Hammers overall, he has a lot of competition for it(Titania, Gatrie, Boyd, Haar, and it had to be shipped over from the DB or CRKs anyway), and gives him worse hit issues. I don't quite get why we don't allow for coins, though. Well, in part 3 I get it since without a transfer you don't exactly start with very many (Those hidden in 3-P and 3-1 only, unless we cart some over from part 1 or 2), but for part 4 we can have quite a number of coins and are likely to get enough decent things to get at least a +1 mt or something better on everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 (edited) Just goes to show that forges can't fix everything, even when they are basically free. If you get a forge and can't double + 3HKO, or not-double and 2RKO, you are in trouble. I don't quite get why we don't allow for coins, though. Well, in part 3 I get it since without a transfer you don't exactly start with very many (Those hidden in 3-P and 3-1 only, unless we cart some over from part 1 or 2), but for part 4 we can have quite a number of coins and are likely to get enough decent things to get at least a +1 mt or something better on everyone. No way to get a specific boost from a coin. You're stuck with the hand that the game deals to you. It's likely in Part 4 that you could get a +mt boosting coin for a forge, but there's no assuring that you do, and finding out which coins give +mt is tedious and time-consuming. On top of that, you might have used the +mt coins on earlier forges. Edited August 10, 2009 by Interceptor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I don't quite get why we don't allow for coins, though. Well, in part 3 I get it since without a transfer you don't exactly start with very many (Those hidden in 3-P and 3-1 only, unless we cart some over from part 1 or 2), but for part 4 we can have quite a number of coins and are likely to get enough decent things to get at least a +1 mt or something better on everyone. Well, we're talking about Brom's Part 3 performance here. Also, coins are random and while we should get some +mt weapons, we don't know what kind they'll be, unless we're only forging axes or something, coins are very random. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 (edited) Well, we're talking about Brom's Part 3 performance here. Also, coins are random and while we should get some +mt weapons, we don't know what kind they'll be, unless we're only forging axes or something, coins are very random. Yeah, I guess this isn't the time to comment on it since we are talking about his part 3. I just wanted to say it in general, really. But when you have 20 coins in part 4 for forging, and maybe 8 units or less that actually want something, I can't imagine getting nothing useful for everyone so I think it's weird to assume that in part 4 forges are cardless. I know it's random and we might get some +20 hits and put it on a hand axe, or a +10 crit and give it to Zihark or something, but at the very least there will be something. With going through it once we know what we are going to get anyway, so we might as well reload and make something awesome. I think an extra +1 mt seems like a minimum for the improvements, though I don't know how much an extra +1 will help very many units ORKO instead of 2RKO or 3HKO instead of 4HKO by part 4. Also, every time getting a coin is brought up (like a way to justify deploying Heather or something) some people just say lolcoin or something. If you have 6 coins instead of 15 you are far less likely to get anything useful. Edited August 10, 2009 by Narga_Rocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I think tier lists assume no reloading, otherwise we could be reloading to abuse BEXP and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 (edited) I think tier lists assume no reloading, otherwise we could be reloading to abuse BEXP and such. There is that, I suppose. But the difference here is we only reload once, whereas with bexp we could reload 10 times to try to force the 5th best growth to proc or something. Still, if that's the justification I guess I can live with it. Except then what about units that constantly face a 1% chance of getting killed? We reload if they die, anyway. and finding out which coins give +mt is tedious and time-consuming It's not that bad. It takes a few minutes. It isn't so much worse than calculating move distances of enemies to make sure Ranulf isn't going to untransform on us. Or any other analysis. Difference is we likely write it down. If time-consuming is the justification for not reloading rather than the reloading itself then I think Ranulf should drop because it is tedius and time-consuming to make sure he doesn't suddenly untransform. Edited August 10, 2009 by Narga_Rocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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