OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh, my bad. Sothe by 20/9 can do the same, your point? In fact, Sothe can counter them, and has better resistance, and can attack from range, and has no elemental weakness...

Funny story, that, but fire/wind/thunder tail are actually not effective against beasts, flyers not Kurth/wyvern, dragon/wyvern type. Even the page on this site says that.

edit: Ninja'd again, this time by red fox. At least I mentioned the other tails though, so I'm not utterly useless here.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

I did say "that I can think of," though I'm not even sure if it would Astrid. At best, it might send her to Low.

Not sure if you're just joking around, but Devdan does give Danved bonuses.

I was joking around, but in seriousness though, Danved would support pretty awesomely ;;>>

Countering them is a weak argument, as they should all be killed on P phase and many units can't counter them anyway. Besides, I don't think Sothe w/Peshkatz can ORKO them. Also, fire weakness doesn't apply for Spirits.

Countering is usually what makes them not attack you. If you let's say accidentally screw up, I know who the spirits won't be going after. Besides otherwise, he's got Baselard.

Err....they don't? ;;>> No wonder Cain's as high as he is.

Volug can handle his transformation gauge, Sothe caps Str at 28. There are plenty of 1 range enemies that Volug using a Player phase to grass (or none at all if he gets a Laguz Gem) is not a big deal.

It is a big deal for my herons and my dragons and Giffca and Santa! D :

Also, glad to see you accepted my saying Sothe's offense is bad part 4 with stride

No, he's not. His HP caps at 40, so 39 Mt Tigers can still 2HKO him until he gets 20 Def, which can only reasonably happen with a transfer. Those are the most common enemy on the map.

Did softpadding go out of style all of a sudden? All he's practically got left is Defense, Luck and Speed.

What are the chances Volug will be attacked by so many enemies at once and not dodge a single one? And Volug doesn't care about using P Phase for grass since every single enemy attacks from 1 range.

It opens up a risk Sothe doesn't have to deal with, and again Sothe doesn't have to deal with grassing at all.

Check out that Dracoshield and see how Volug can put it to use in a way Sothe can't. At least for part 3, but I don't have the time to go over the numbers.

Now you're just trying to embaress me ;;>>

[Florete]

Countering is usually what makes them not attack you. If you let's say accidentally screw up, I know who the spirits won't be going after. Besides otherwise, he's got Baselard.

Okay. So what's stopping them from attacking whoever wields Urvan or Vague Katti? Those aren't 2 range. And I don't know about you, but I'm always able to kill all the Spirits immediately, and usually with 1 or 2 units to spare.

It is a big deal for my herons and my dragons and Giffca and Santa! D :

That's why Laguz Gem came with the "if" and in parentheses (Sp?).

Also, glad to see you accepted my saying Sothe's offense is bad part 4 with stride

It is bad, though I agree that the degree to which it is bad is overblown very often.

Did softpadding go out of style all of a sudden? All he's practically got left is Defense, Luck and Speed.

Dude, no way in hell is he getting 6 Def levels by part 3. He might not even get 6 level ups at all. Def is tied with Mag for his lowest growth. Without a transfer, he has no chance of getting enough Def. And I see you forgot Res.

It opens up a risk Sothe doesn't have to deal with, and again Sothe doesn't have to deal with grassing at all.

More like it opens up something Volug can actually handle, since the strongest Cats are like a 5HKO or something on Volug.

[Narga_Rocks]

I did say "that I can think of," though I'm not even sure if it would Astrid. At best, it might send her to Low.

Not sure if you're just joking around, but Devdan does give Danved bonuses.

I was joking around, but in seriousness though, Danved would support pretty awesomely ;;>>

Well, Devdan only has a prayer at strength. If we give him anything else, we might as well say Mia and Marcia can cap defence in PoR since they have more time to be bexp abused with resets to make it happen.

Countering them is a weak argument, as they should all be killed on P phase and many units can't counter them anyway. Besides, I don't think Sothe w/Peshkatz can ORKO them. Also, fire weakness doesn't apply for Spirits.

Countering is usually what makes them not attack you. If you let's say accidentally screw up, I know who the spirits won't be going after. Besides otherwise, he's got Baselard.

Err....they don't? ;;>> No wonder Cain's as high as he is.

Well, if you have 11 units with 2 range and you are afraid of your 1 range units getting doubled there is this awesome diamond that 11 units + heron can stand on made of wardwood and all 12 are basically invincible and the spirits will take some damage no matter who they attack. Your 1 range units can be hidden in the 5 spots in the centre. Since you only have 17 units...

Then on player phase you can commence operation spirit whipping.

Volug can handle his transformation gauge, Sothe caps Str at 28. There are plenty of 1 range enemies that Volug using a Player phase to grass (or none at all if he gets a Laguz Gem) is not a big deal.

It is a big deal for my herons and my dragons and Giffca and Santa! D :

Also, glad to see you accepted my saying Sothe's offense is bad part 4 with stride

The heron (where do you get (s)?) can have some. The dragons just need a stone since their gauge depletes so slowly. Giffca only needs a gem in 4-E-1 anyway since the other chapters he again has that slow gauge thing. His is -2 per battle and -3 per turn so it isn't like the dragons' -1 per battle and -2 per turn, but it's still fine for the length of these chapters. And in 4-E-3 they all start with full except the heron so Giffca and the dragons don't even need a stone here.

No, he's not. His HP caps at 40, so 39 Mt Tigers can still 2HKO him until he gets 20 Def, which can only reasonably happen with a transfer. Those are the most common enemy on the map.

Did softpadding go out of style all of a sudden? All he's practically got left is Defense, Luck and Speed.

If you mean slowplaying then it's rather difficult in tier 2 for anyone not with the GMs because of availability. He's not likely to cap much until 3-12, which leaves the 3-13 base and the 4-1 base. That's two cheap bexp levels. Micaiah, for example, gets the 4-3 base and the pre 4-E base. She's like the only DB unit that can have a semi-reasonable amount of cheap bexp levels.

What are the chances Volug will be attacked by so many enemies at once and not dodge a single one? And Volug doesn't care about using P Phase for grass since every single enemy attacks from 1 range.

It opens up a risk Sothe doesn't have to deal with, and again Sothe doesn't have to deal with grassing at all.

Grassing isn't a huge deal for Volug. He can have fun weakening stuff for someone else to kill, get some kills when he doesn't need grassing. Sothe requires the iron dagger when getting attacked by a tiger and a bronze something for cats. Then he needs to actually hit with the beast killer and it's accuracy isn't exactly the best.

[-Cynthia-]

Just as a side note, a lot of units have a much better chance to cap Spd in PoR due to possible KW access.

[Narga_Rocks]

Just as a side note, a lot of units have a much better chance to cap Spd in PoR due to possible KW access.

Forgot about that. Still, for Danved it means Devdan has 23.4 speed out of 26 cap with the Knight Ward every single level. I'm not sure what his chance at capping would be, but considering every level he gets without the KW would drop that average of 23.4 even lower, and how his 23.6 out of 25 strength apparently only has a 33% chance of capping, I'd say his chance of getting speed are not so great. And he only gets 24.4 out of 25 strength on average with a +str band every single level. Not sure what kind of % chance of capping that would cause, but still under 50% for sure. Likely mid 40s.

[-Cynthia-]

Forgot about that. Still, for Danved it means Devdan has 23.4 speed out of 26 cap with the Knight Ward every single level. I'm not sure what his chance at capping would be, but considering every level he gets without the KW would drop that average of 23.4 even lower, and how his 23.6 out of 25 strength apparently only has a 33% chance of capping, I'd say his chance of getting speed are not so great. And he only gets 24.4 out of 25 strength on average with a +str band every single level. Not sure what kind of % chance of capping that would cause, but still under 50% for sure. Likely mid 40s.

Devdan still probably won't cap, but those with a low display chance (Titania,Geoffrey) now have a significant chance to cap, and those with a higher display chance (Kieran, Oscar) have an excellent chance.

Edited August 27, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

I'd like to get this transfer thing settled. I don't mind putting separate slots for transfer units or just continuing going about things the way we have (sometimes it happens, sometimes not), but I don't want to have a transfer slot just so a character can go above himself without a transfer. Like, with Volke and Stefan, it would probably only do something like this:

Volke (Transfer)

Stefan (Transfer)

Volke

Stefan

And that would be pointless. For a transfer slot to exist, they need to at least pass up a few characters, or better yet, advance a full tier. Any suggestions?

[Interceptor]

Fixed mode is the solution to all of life's little problems, imo. Although I am biased since the Steel weapon mods make it easy for Nephenee to cap her STR that way.

[Narga_Rocks]

Forgot about that. Still, for Danved it means Devdan has 23.4 speed out of 26 cap with the Knight Ward every single level. I'm not sure what his chance at capping would be, but considering every level he gets without the KW would drop that average of 23.4 even lower, and how his 23.6 out of 25 strength apparently only has a 33% chance of capping, I'd say his chance of getting speed are not so great. And he only gets 24.4 out of 25 strength on average with a +str band every single level. Not sure what kind of % chance of capping that would cause, but still under 50% for sure. Likely mid 40s.

Devdan still probably won't cap, but those with a low display chance (Titania,Geoffrey) now have a significant chance to cap, and those with a higher display chance (Kieran, Oscar) have an excellent chance.

Which is pretty good for Titania, considering that means the speedwing isn't even required anymore. Not that Titania taking a speedwing is a huge deal, but if she gets a +spd transfer then one of two doritos is out of the running and it opens the floor for any caramilks out there for whichever wing Haar doesn't take.

As for the rest, it is a small improvement for Oscar. Still, 21 speed was only hurting him for a couple of chapters anyway.

Kieran gets a good one though, since 22 speed means more doubling later, and only 2 levels from a cumulative 51% shot at 23 speed.

Geoffrey was already the best in 2-3 and among the best in 3-9. The speed means it's still only likely to be 22 in 4-5, not fun.

And I think a Marcia with str, skl, spd transfers has a very real shot at upper mid in this game.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

I still think Sothe should be top, but I guess I conceed on Volug. His part 4 is better and stat bosters can make him rape part 3 if you wish.

As for Danved, uhh...You know he works like Sothe with that deal, right? That if he has certain stats past their FE10 bases, that's what he gets?

[Florete]

I think Narga just opened up a big problem without realizing it. Haar himself is unlikely to get anything transferred, but a transfer on Titania's Spd makes him much more likely to get a Speedwing with much less cost, which could change his tier positioning, since if he doubles he has an awesome shot at being better than Ike. In fact, that would probably cement it. The problem is that this isn't Haar's transfer, it's Titania's....

We'd probably need another topic for this, where we discuss which PoR units would get which stats transferred and how it would affect their tier positioning. I'd be happy to start it if everyone thinks it's a good enough idea.

EDIT:

As for Danved, uhh...You know he works like Sothe with that deal, right? That if he has certain stats past their FE10 bases, that's what he gets?

Where the hell did you get that? That isn't true.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

I think Narga just opened up a big problem without realizing it. Haar himself is unlikely to get anything transferred, but a transfer on Titania's Spd makes him much more likely to get a Speedwing with much less cost, which could change his tier positioning, since if he doubles he has an awesome shot at being better than Ike. In fact, that would probably cement it. The problem is that this isn't Haar's transfer, it's Titania's....

We'd probably need another topic for this, where we discuss which PoR units would get which stats transferred and how it would affect their tier positioning. I'd be happy to start it if everyone thinks it's a good enough idea.

But...I was already giving Haar the 2-3 speedwing. Seriously, he makes awesome use of it. Marcia ends 2-3 holding the speedwing, position Haar so that he can reach Marcia's starting position and wing him. Then all those 17 and 18 speed enemies get nuked. In fact, after 2 levels Haar has a 51% chance of procing spd. It's at least a shot at doubling all those 19 speed enemies now. After about 6 levels he'll usually have 24 speed and doubles a fair number of things in part 3 once that happens. Whenever it would happen. Then assuming he gets 6 levels by the end of 3-7 (and I really don't see why he wouldn't) he can use the crown Heather stole to ascend to godhood. Well, 26 speed stops being awesome in part 4, and he needs ~17/4 to get 27 speed even with the 2-3 wing. Really, Ike still doubles much more than Haar does in part 4, and probably gets up to doubling speed sooner than Haar in part 3 anyway. Still, 26 speed does well on the generals in 4-P/1/2 and most paladins in 4-P so he has something to attack.

Anyway, what about Marcia? 18 str, 22 spd in 2-P. I think she now 2RKOs with just a javelin + steel lance combo, so on enemy phase she can weaken with a javelin and kill on player phase with the steel lance. Also, for 2-3 she has 22 speed with a steel greatlance and does a fair amount of damage to everything, and 3HKOs the speedwing guy, so 2RKOs if she can get to 23 spd. Also, 23 speed is surely attainable by 2-E, and that's doubling just about everything and wreaking havoc. She doesn't ORKO all those things, but at least she kills the longbow users quickly enough and is pretty useful overall. In 3-9, she's potentially got 24 speed now and is the offensive leader in that chapter. Even a transfer for Kieran isn't helping because he'd need to somehow get 6 levels just to have 24 speed. She needs 3 and has way more availability and starts 6 levels lower.

Then in 3-11 she's already doubling just about everything, and with paragon help in 3-9 and maybe a bit of attacking in 3-11 she'll have 25 or 26 speed and double all but swordmasters. In part 4 she's already set for doubling so she doesn't need early crowning. Brave access or Horseslayer access with doubling. Also, back in 3-E there's all those paladins up in the northwest that only she can reach. Haar could go, but he's just going to get put to sleep. Tanith or Sigrun could go, but they have more late game issues than Marcia, especially the transfer Marcia.

Basically, she's even better in part 2 and 3-9, she's got an easier time catching up, and she'll still be an epic wishblade user thanks to innate fire affinity and doubling and canto for more dragon skills and move for easier access to spirits in 4-E-4. And she can double Sephiran.

I'm thinking transfer Marcia could be bottom of upper mid.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

But...I was already giving Haar the 2-3 speedwing. Seriously, he makes awesome use of it.

And if Titania transfers Spd, the cost of him taking it is lessened.

I'm thinking transfer Marcia could be bottom of upper mid.

I kinda didn't feel like waiting for people to agree with my new topic proposal and started making it anyway. We can discuss it there when I'm done. And yes, I agree.

[Narga_Rocks]

But...I was already giving Haar the 2-3 speedwing. Seriously, he makes awesome use of it.

And if Titania transfers Spd, the cost of him taking it is lessened.

There is that, I suppose.

I'm thinking transfer Marcia could be bottom of upper mid.

I kinda didn't feel like waiting for people to agree with my new topic proposal and started making it anyway. We can discuss it there when I'm done. And yes, I agree.

Awesome.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

Btw, what's making such a massive difference between naesala and Tibarn? Not only with an str transfer thanks to an enery drop he becomes exactly like him in performance, he's essentially still uber without it. Plus, Naesala has the better affinity of the two as well. In all honesty, Tibran is doing little more than Naesala is yet has got ahead of units like Elincia and Micaiah whilst Naesala hasn't.

[charmander6000]

Naesala only has S strike and has to rely on tear to kill some enemies while Tibarn doesn't really. Also the difference was made without transfer.

[Colonel M]

I was actually trying to argue to close that gap as well. Though Narga shown that Tibarn had to use Tear as well against the Generals in some instances and Adept practically helped Naesala round up more KOs.

[_____]

Not only with an str transfer thanks to an enery drop he becomes exactly like him in performance

So, with a stat up item and a shaky transfer, he becomes Tibarn...! OK. So, Tibarn with any other type of resource would win. So, Tibarn w/ resources > Naesala with resources, Tibarn w/o resources = Naesala w/ resources, Tibarn w/ resources > Naesala w/o, and Tibarn w/o resources > Naesala w/o resources.

...

Wait, what point were you trying to make? That's a pretty big win for Tibarn. Start a bit lower.

[Narga_Rocks]

To go away from the Naesala thing, and about as far away from the high tier talk from a day or two ago as possible:

Sanaki > Pelleas.

I typed up something massive, so I'll post it if there is opposition.

Basically, light vs. water isn't too big a deal since Pelleas doesn't get a chapter bonus in 4-2 and neither have good accelerated options, though Sanaki's are slightly better. +1 mt < 8 hit in 4-E, and Pelleas won't be getting to A even for 4-E-5, probably, but Sanaki has a chance.

Also, Sanaki is always far more accurate than Pelleas and does more damage, consistently doing >50% damage and often >70%. Avoids counters for units that ORKO stuff through doubling but don't enjoy getting countered. Allows units that don't ORKO to KO. Pelleas needs to steal a crown to reach a reasonable level, ever, and that's not good. Without it, he spends 4-5 unpromoted too, or most of it, and starts 4-E-1 around level 20/1. Can't even use paragon in 4-2, and Sanaki doesn't even need Paragon to be functional, ever. Then in the later stages of 4-E his accuracy issues go from sometimes missing to sometimes hitting. And she's actually more durable in 4-P than he is in 4-2, believe it or not, and is easier to keep safe in 4-3 than he is in 4-5, and he always faces significant crit rates from various enemies and base Sanaki will never be doubled by a non-swordmaster or killer weapon user. Ever. And Swordmasters double and ORKO her anyway, so it isn't like she'd ever risk being critted. Extra healing we don't really need and can get without a crown and will have better options is not enough. Also, Sanaki should at least get points for the fact that in a purely efficient playthrough, Pelleas isn't even going to endgame.

[Florete]

I'd thought of Sanaki > Pelleas before, but didn't care enough to bring it up. I am in favor for all of your stated reasons.

[Interceptor]

Sanaki > Pelleas.

I think that this is probably correct. Sanaki is really bad and needs to be smothered in bubble wrap to survive, but she's a capable weakener and does not in any way slow down any playthrough, even the optimal one, as long as you use her smartly.

It feels kind of dumb to give Sanaki credit for being forced, but it's the truth that it's a big advantage for her over scrub-bags like Pelleas.

[grandjackal]

I could say that Pelleas has a better affinity and can be crowned for staffs, but..Who cares about either at this point?

Anywho, I failed in Sothe>Volug. However, no one said he didn't belong in top necessarily...

[Narga_Rocks]

I could say that Pelleas has a better affinity and can be crowned for staffs, but..Who cares about either at this point?

Anywho, I failed in Sothe>Volug. However, no one said he didn't belong in top necessarily...

Well, aside from Int saying he's lucky to be in High. I think that's a definite "no" from him on the Sothe in top front.

As for Pelleas, I did say he can be crowned, just that it doesn't help him much from an efficiency perspective. And as for his affinity, for some parts of endgame I'd rather have 5 hit than 1 mt, and 8 hit than 1 mt (Pelleas isn't likely to reach A for 4-E-5, Sanaki gets an extra chapter bonus along the way.)

If you'd like I can post my 400+ line, 9+ page, 4000+ word write up (fewer lines depending on screen width, eg word has 27 lines for my shorter post, on this page I see 15). I decided it went into excruciating detail and was too long so I made a short version and posted it. 312 words, however Word counts them.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Was by no means saying Pelleas was better ;;>> Just saying...is all, I guess.

As for Sothe, it's one guy who disagrees. You disagreeing too Narga? *runs for bomb shelter*