OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

I dunno why, but I'm having another of my weird-ass senses deal with Tormod...Something tells me a Seraph Robe might go a long ways with him...No clue why...

He'd still be 2HKOd by practically everything in 4-4. And doubled.

Hmm...Would you say Tormod gaining 4 levels in the small time he has part 1 as rediculous before part 4?

Yeah.

I understand you just want to try something new, but I wouldn't pursue this one. Tormod's part 4 might as well be unsalvageable. He'd need Paragon, yet even then his growths aren't that great and he won't double a thing until 3rd tier.

[Interceptor]

It wasn't entirely solved, but it got damn close. Going from being ORKOd by everyone -> ORKOd by 8 enemies is a big improvement.

I don't disagree that it's a big improvement, but I think that it's like saying that getting punched in the face is better than getting kicked in the package, in terms of observations that are technically true but are dubiously useful.

Do you want to know why that is? Because Lyre is also extremely difficult to train. When two units have the same property attached, neither gets + or - from it. In a Mist vs. Rhys comparison, Mist wouldn't be winning for staves since Rhys can do it as well. This is a very similar thing.

I don't agree with your statement here because it's not logically tied it to a stated goal of the tier list. The example is also non sequitur-ish. Staves are something that Mist and Rhys both do to help, being hard to train is something that Lyre and Fiona do to fail.

Do I spot a double standard or am I reading wrong? I hope it's the latter.

You are reading it wrong, because you are parsing everything that I say here as a tier argument. What I do personally and what is a valid argument are two entirely different animals. Lyre is easier to train, but it costs more. This is pretty straightforward give and take.

I do agree with your second paragraph, but I'm not getting your point in terms of our current argument. If Lyre and Fiona were getting these things for free, they wouldn't be Bottom tier.

You are assuming that everyone gets some piece of the pie. You are not assuming that they get it for free, but that's only a partial fix the problem. Why are you assuming that everyone is entitled to some favoritism? There is no logical explanation for that.

The point that I am trying to make is that they are both so ridiculously awful that no level of favoritism can dig them out of the hole. They take one step forward and three steps back. The level of favoritism involved is going to change the calculus of how better one is compared to to the other, but that's only changing the size of the gap, not the fact that both of them are totally underwater no matter what they do. You're left measuring basically which unit is sandbagging the team less bad than the other, which is silly.

And that's exactly what we've been trying to gauge. Who is better in terms of the cost to get there and where they actually get?

What is the point of that?

The reason that we compare a unit's offensive and defensive power is that generally those things help us complete the game easier. But if getting a unit to a certain point of offensive power actually results in poorer overall game completion performance than if we didn't do it in the first place, then why did we even do that? Fiona is so bad that even a modest use of resources slows you down more than using Fiona as-is. Yes, that's what makes her Bottom tier, but this is also what makes it damn-near impsosible to compare her to another Bottom tier unit.

So why are you even pitching in? If you have a stance, take it, don't tell me we shouldn't have even started.

Why shouldn't I say that something is pointless when it is? The tier philosophy argument is more interesting. Fiona vs. Lyre as it has been conducted so far seems inherently contradictory to me.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

85 is her minimum (at neutral bio) though. With her bases and a max Hit forge, she has 133 Hit, which actually sees 90+ on a lot of enemies in 1-7. This is also displayed hit and not true. It's like, Myrmidons that bring her lower. Also, if we use a Coin, the Arrow card (+10 Hit) is the most likely outcome, and that would pretty much eliminate her Hit problems altogether. Then there's the leveling up during the chapter and getting +Skl or Luck to help further. If you know how to work around it, Fiona's Hit issues actually aren't that bad.

EDIT: Given the Seraph Robe, those Myrmidons also won't ORKO her.

Well, let's see. The myrms pull crit, so that's still a risk. That's what this is all about, risk. The chances of her missing and getting crit-blicked aren't good, but Lyre has a 0% chance of dying. The arrow card would be nice, though so far we have 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 1-6-1, so 4 coins. We could make two lances, one for Aran and one for Fiona. Aran has some hit issues, but 25 hit solves those I think, and even if not he isn't killed in return. So we make two lances, stick a coin on both of them, and hope one of them has +35 hit instead of +25. Or we could get lucky and pull a soldier card, but let's ignore that small possibility. We likely have a higher chance of getting Arrow than of her actually missing even with 90%, but still let's just go without the card.

If we go through the spot with 2 armors and a soldier and an archer and 2 mages (she'll die if she goes all the way north and going east is silly with a mounted unit) then there is two armors without the speed to double her. They have 16 def so she can damage them but even with a max mt lance she has 20 mt so does 4 damage. Someone or someones need to cause 29 to 32 damage. Anyway, she's safe to attack them without dying if she misses. Then there is a soldier in front of a door and he doesn't move (on NM, don't remember HM) and an archer on the door above that does move. Draw the archer, she can attack him safely because he can't counter. If we are serious about Fiona, that's 3 enemies right there. The two mages actually 3RKO a seraph robe Fiona, believe it or not, so she could actually hold a javelin and draw them by herself. She'll likely miss one and hit the other, so it doesn't give much exp but does give 4 wexp regardless. Anyway, with help she can kill one of them, or if we draw them one at a time she kills both. We can ignore the 5 enemies in the northwest simply because they are not something she wants to mess with, so onto the hand axe general. A seraph robe draco shield Fiona can survive this guy with 2 hp remaining, but the draco is a little much and if she hasn't leveled yet she won't have gotten def or spd, though only spd protects her from him. He has 17 def and 25 mt and 14 spd. If we do bexp her 1 level beforehand, all she needs is spd to survive if she has a seraph robe or not. Moving east further, there is a longbow user that likely was drawn by Jill attacking the armor, or whatever. So we need to damage him enough for Fiona to kill. He can't counter and she can be protected. That's now 6 or 7 enemies she can safely attack without fearing a ORKO response in the event of a miss. Moving south, there are two mages and a soldier at the door. The soldier only ORKOs Fiona if she hasn't yet gotten speed. Still, that's 8 to 10 enemies she can safely attack because a bunch of them don't move. Then there are the two non-moving bow users near the boss. If we are at least trying to maintain a semi-respectable speed, we must weaken them and have her only give one hit. If we don't care, strap on an iron lance and go to town. We'll be here a while. Let's be reasonable and say she just finishes them off, though. So that's 10 to 12 enemies she can safely attack without fear of death if we keep her healed and just go at it.

Someone want to tell me what a level 10.00 Fiona (with the bexp level) would end up at if all she does is give the killing blows to those 10 enemies that a base level Fiona without even a seraph robe can safely take out (in other words, a level 10 Fiona with the robe can do it easier)?

Oh yeah, the boss is slow so a max mt forge and a Fiona that actually got str can do 1 damage to him, so it is possible to get her a boss kill and if he counters she lives even without the robe. (1 hp remaining).

I already said why: I can just dump a bunch of crap onto her (boosters, BEXP, skills), and on top of that she's in a very favorable environment for babying (plenty of durable walls, plenty of weakners, etc).

It actually doesn't seem so bad with Fiona. Just makes us take the chapter really slowly and what's worse is that she's taking 10 kills out of 27 enemies. Or 12 out of 27. But it's the ones on the route to the boss and a slight detour at the end, so that probably makes it worse than if she just kills ones on the side. And she's taking the easy ones.

I don't agree with this logic at all. My stance on favoritism is that of doritos opportunity cost. Nobody gets anything for free. This is not Soviet Fire Emblem, where you get X% of the resource pie no matter how badly you suck with it.

Which is why I looked at Fiona both with and without the robe. Personally I don't see small amounts of bexp as a doritos thing. Taking half our bexp resources is, but not 10%. How much does Fiona take with 900? I don't feel like calculating. Oh, and NM has 50 x level + 50, but for some reason HM is 100 x level flat. Don't know why, just know that that's how it is. I think she's taking a sizeable chunk with that 900, so that could be bad. Lyre is taking mid 20s% in 3-4, I think. Taking the seraph robe means Micaiah is OHKOd by more things and Jill is 2HKOd by more things so that's already two units that are either more important or end up better. For example, Micaiah can just stand in front of an armor with thani and take the pain then take it down. Micaiah without that robe can't. Jill being 3HKOd rather than 2 is obvious. Even Nolan likely has more improvement. Since all of them are better, they likely mean more cost than benefit.

But, I wonder if there is another angle to consider. We are stuck with using Fiona. We want to at least make her usable. Is one unit that is one rounded and another that is 3 rounded better than 2 units that are both two rounded. Since we are forced to use Fiona anyway, is it a better idea to give one thing to her? On the other hand, we can compare the Fiona seraph robe army to the not using Fiona and giving the robe to someone else army, but I'm not sure if that matters since the other army is likely better even if they gave the robe to charity.

The point that I am trying to make is that they are both so ridiculously awful that no level of favoritism can dig them out of the hole. They take one step forward and three steps back. The level of favoritism involved is going to change the calculus of how better one is compared to to the other, but that's only changing the size of the gap, not the fact that both of them are totally underwater no matter what they do. You're left measuring basically which unit is sandbagging the team less bad than the other, which is silly.

Which is what really sucks about comparing these two units. We are saying which one is shooting us in the foot and which one is shooting us in the heart. Or something like that. Unfortunately, I can't come up with a good way to do this.

Wait, who's expensive to train, Fiona or Lyre? The way your sentence is worded I can't quite tell.

Lyre.

I'm a genious.

For pretty boi and wrath, well, even if we sealed her I'd rather give her paragon now that her exp gain will blow. Wrath won't be significant enough to gain enough experience over what was lost without paragon.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I don't disagree that it's a big improvement, but I think that it's like saying that getting punched in the face is better than getting kicked in the package, in terms of observations that are technically true but are dubiously useful.

I'd say it's more like going from punched in the face to pinched on the shoulder, but those kinds of comparisons are pretty meaningless.

I don't agree with your statement here because it's not logically tied it to a stated goal of the tier list. The example is also non sequitur-ish. Staves are something that Mist and Rhys both do to help, being hard to train is something that Lyre and Fiona do to fail.

My point was that the two units being compared have the same thing that make them better/worse than other units, thus they cancel each other out. Fiona being tough to train isn't really a point against her when compared to Lyre, since the Cat has the same problem. Mist having staves isn't a point for her when compared to Rhys, because Rhys can use them as well.

You are reading it wrong, because you are parsing everything that I say here as a tier argument. What I do personally and what is a valid argument are two entirely different animals. Lyre is easier to train, but it costs more. This is pretty straightforward give and take.

You are assuming that everyone gets some piece of the pie. You are not assuming that they get it for free, but that's only a partial fix the problem. Why are you assuming that everyone is entitled to some favoritism? There is no logical explanation for that.

I'm having the same exact issue with this post. First you say "Lyre is easier to train, yet at a higher cost." You then go on to say that no one is entitled to favoritism, no one gets it for free, etc., which completely defeats the purpose of what you had just said, since what's the point of being easier to train if the cost to do it is higher?

And when I say that everyone is entitled to some favoritism, I mean simple things like forges and some BEXP, not stat boosters and kill feeding. We're only assuming those for these two because both need it to function.

What is the point of that?

To determine which one deserves a higher position on the tier list.

The reason that we compare a unit's offensive and defensive power is that generally those things help us complete the game easier. But if getting a unit to a certain point of offensive power actually results in poorer overall game completion performance than if we didn't do it in the first place, then why did we even do that? Fiona is so bad that even a modest use of resources slows you down more than using Fiona as-is. Yes, that's what makes her Bottom tier, but this is also what makes it damn-near impsosible to compare her to another Bottom tier unit.

So should I take them off the list? If we can't use them, can't compare them, etc., I see no reason for them to exist on the list.

Why shouldn't I say that something is pointless when it is? The tier philosophy argument is more interesting. Fiona vs. Lyre as it has been conducted so far seems inherently contradictory to me.

Perhaps we have different ideas of tier lists. I don't think this is pointless. If you do, perhaps it would be better to end it right now, so I'll put Fiona above Lyre.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

So I have to ask, aside from myrms she should be avoiding anyway, what does she need the robe for? I guess her 6 mag allows her to heal enough that she only needs healing every other turn with the robe rather than every turn without it, but still she's not supposed to get hit anyway. Really it means if she misses and gets countered by a safe enemy then we don't have to heal her because next turn she'll recover enough she can miss again.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

My point was that the two units being compared have the same thing that make them better/worse than other units, thus they cancel each other out. Fiona being tough to train isn't really a point against her when compared to Lyre, since the Cat has the same problem. Mist having staves isn't a point for her when compared to Rhys, because Rhys can use them as well.

My issue is that being good at something is different than being bad at something when it comes to game completion, so it's not really a good analogy.

I'm having the same exact issue with this post. First you say "Lyre is easier to train, yet at a higher cost." You then go on to say that no one is entitled to favoritism, no one gets it for free, etc., which completely defeats the purpose of what you had just said, since what's the point of being easier to train if the cost to do it is higher?

I am just stating a fact. It has really nothing to do with tier placement at all, just with how I view their relative difficulty to train.

And when I say that everyone is entitled to some favoritism, I mean simple things like forges and some BEXP, not stat boosters and kill feeding. We're only assuming those for these two because both need it to function.

Forges I will give you, within reason, because there is more money than you can reasonably spend on things that help you win the game. BEXP, not so much, that can go to anyone and there is a limited amount.

To determine which one deserves a higher position on the tier list.

That's not what I meant. I understand that you are trying to tier the characters, what I don't understand is why you do something that runs counter to efficient game completion, since any comparison you draw from it would be tainted by that fact.

So should I take them off the list? If we can't use them, can't compare them, etc., I see no reason for them to exist on the list.

I don't think that you should take them off the list, I just think that the tier list guidelines as-is do not really support the argument that you are engaging in. We can prove that Sanaki is better than Fiona, because Sanaki is actually capable of taking resources and being marginally useful with them. I don't see how we can prove one Bottom tier is better than another, because what makes them Bottom tier in the first place is that they suck right out of the gate, and almost anything that they take actually makes the game harder than it would be if you just had them sleeping in the sun somewhere.

How can you even compare units like this? I posit that you cannot, unless you change the goals of the tier list.

Perhaps we have different ideas of tier lists. I don't think this is pointless. If you do, perhaps it would be better to end it right now, so I'll put Fiona above Lyre.

I would be surpsied if any two people chosen at random in this thread agreed 100% on tier list requirements. WRT Fiona and Lyre, I don't care who is higher than the other on the list, because I think they are both basically as bad as each other with respect to efficient game completion.

[Florete]

So I have to ask, aside from myrms she should be avoiding anyway, what does she need the robe for? I guess her 6 mag allows her to heal enough that she only needs healing every other turn with the robe rather than every turn without it, but still.

Without it, 26 enemies ORKO her (some are an OHKO). With it, it lowers to 19. With a +Def (BEXP or 55% on a level), it lowers to 8. The Myrmidons are included in the 7 that went from 26 to 19, and one Myrmidon isn't even in the original 26.

My issue is that being good at something is different than being bad at something when it comes to game completion, so it's not really a good analogy.

I get what you mean, but 1 and 1 cancel out in the same way -1 and -1 cancel out. In a comparison between the two, neither is better or worse.

That's not what I meant. I understand that you are trying to tier the characters, what I don't understand is why you do something that runs counter to efficient game completion, since any comparison you draw from it would be tainted by that fact.

Just using them runs counter to efficient game completion, but we have to use them to tier them, so what do you suggest we do? The only thing I could think of was removing them from the list.

I don't care who is higher than the other on the list

Alrighty then. We go on to the next subject of interest.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

Someone want to tell me what a level 10.00 Fiona (with the bexp level) would end up at if all she does is give the killing blows to those 10 enemies that a base level Fiona without even a seraph robe can safely take out (in other words, a level 10 Fiona with the robe can do it easier)?

Enough speed to get sealed and avoid being doubled. 4 HP doesn't really help her. She'd prefer any speed boost she can get. 2 Speed helps her durability against generally everything.

For pretty boi and wrath, well, even if we sealed her I'd rather give her paragon now that her exp gain will blow. Wrath won't be significant enough to gain enough experience over what was lost without paragon.

Good point, just spitballing really.

[Narga_Rocks]

So I have to ask, aside from myrms she should be avoiding anyway, what does she need the robe for? I guess her 6 mag allows her to heal enough that she only needs healing every other turn with the robe rather than every turn without it, but still.

Without it, 26 enemies ORKO her (some are an OHKO). With it, it lowers to 19. With a +Def (BEXP or 55% on a level), it lowers to 8. The Myrmidons are included in the 7 that went from 26 to 19, and one Myrmidon isn't even in the original 26.

I count 13 units that ORKO her, because everything with <14 spd cannot possibly OHKO her. She has 25 hp and 8 def and 6 res at base level. Even the boss only has 31 mt and 13 AS. The reinforcements are irrelevant since none of them ever need meet her. In fact, if we pull off 11 or even 12 turning the map they can't meet her. The reinforcements at the end of turn 1 are basically going to suicide into the LEA or Sothe, so those don't matter either. As for those 13 units, some of them are down where the LEA appear, so they aren't meeting Fiona because she isn't going to go towards a dead end unless we want to spend 20 turns having her solo the map. Another 4 are up near the door on the top left. Once a unit is in range of the armor, they all move. It's not really a good idea to have Fiona meet them either, considering any two of them will kill her even with the robe. So that cuts us down to 7 units that can ORKO her that she's ever likely to meet. Of those, 5 of them don't even move, ever. Two of which can't even counter at one range. That leaves us with one archer that moves that starts next to the top room on the left side and the longbow archer. Well, actually the archer on the left side looks like it has 13 AS so it is not one of the ones that can kill her. That means there is precisely one moving enemy that can ORKO her that she is ever likely to meet. He has 24 atk. Fiona with a seraph robe is still ORKOd by this guy. 16x2 damage = 32 = dead. She'd need a hp or def from a level to not die from him. And yet he has just 14 speed so one point of speed from a bexp level protects her anyway even without the robe.

Of the units she is likely to meet, there is precisely one unit that moves and can ORKO her. If she gets one point of speed, there are zero units that can ORKO her on her most likely route. In fact, the 3 stationary units that can counter at 1 range and ORKO her all have >= 24 mt, and as such she needs a point of speed on the bexp level to survive them anyway since the seraph robe is insufficient (a point of spd means she survives without the robe). Basically, there are ZERO enemies against whom the seraph robe means anything in a single round. The only thing it is good for is the robe plus imbue means if she happens to miss then on the following player phase she will have enough hp to risk a miss again without being healed.

Well, maybe not zero enemies, since if she pulls no spd on the level but gets a hp or a def the seraph robe allows her to survive 24 mt, so that's 3 out of ~14 enemies along the path that she'll actually take that a seraph robe plus a point of hp or def allows her to survive, and 10 of the other 11 she can survive at base level with nothing. Oh, and one of those 3 was the longbow user so he can't counter her anyway. A point of spd without the robe means 14 out of 14 can be survived rather than 13 out of 14. So a robe (with a point of hp or def) allows her to safely attack precisely 2 enemies that she couldn't have attacked before.

I still say being able to safely attack 11 enemies is plenty. 14 if she gets spd with bexp. (Well, more like 10 and 13, since she needs +1 str (or a sword card) and a max mt forge in order to do even 1 damage to the boss.) She doesn't need more than 9 or 10 kills here anyway, does she?

I guess it's a matter of knowing the layout for this chapter by heart. Considering I just spent hours on it testing stuff for supports I guess that makes it easier for me to know the layout. She really doesn't need a seraph robe here. It helps, but only in the event of a miss (and only in that we can delay healing an extra turn). Maybe in 1-E it helps, but not in 1-7. We can just make sure that she doesn't get attacked on enemy phase, like we would have to do even with a robe.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

So I have to ask, aside from myrms she should be avoiding anyway, what does she need the robe for? I guess her 6 mag allows her to heal enough that she only needs healing every other turn with the robe rather than every turn without it, but still.

Without it, 26 enemies ORKO her (some are an OHKO). With it, it lowers to 19. With a +Def (BEXP or 55% on a level), it lowers to 8. The Myrmidons are included in the 7 that went from 26 to 19, and one Myrmidon isn't even in the original 26.

I count 13 units that ORKO her, because everything with <14 spd cannot possibly OHKO her. She has 25 hp and 8 def and 8 res at base level. Even the boss only has 31 mt and 13 AS. The reinforcements are irrelevant since none of them ever need meet her. In fact, if we pull off 11 or even 12 turning the map they can't meet her. The reinforcements at the end of turn 1 are basically going to suicide into the LEA or Sothe, so those don't matter either. As for those 13 units, some of them are down where the LEA appear, so they aren't meeting Fiona because she isn't going to go towards a dead end unless we want to spend 20 turns having her solo the map. Another 4 are up near the door on the top left. Once a unit is in range of the armor, they all move. It's not really a good idea to have Fiona meet them either, considering any two of them will kill her even with the robe. So that cuts us down to 7 units that can ORKO her that she's ever likely to meet. Of those, 5 of them don't even move, ever. Two of which can't even counter at one range. That leaves us with one archer that moves that starts next to the top room on the left side and the longbow archer. Well, actually the archer on the left side looks like it has 13 AS so it is not one of the ones that can kill her. That means there is precisely one moving enemy that can ORKO her that she is ever likely to meet. He has 24 atk. Fiona with a seraph robe is still ORKOd by this guy. 16x2 damage = 32 = dead. She'd need a hp or def from a level to not die from him. And yet he has just 14 speed so one point of speed from a bexp level protects her anyway even without the robe.

Of the units she is likely to meet, there is precisely one unit that moves and can ORKO her. If she gets one point of speed, there are zero units that can ORKO her on her most likely route. In fact, the 3 stationary units that can counter at 1 range and ORKO her all have >= 24 mt, and as such she needs a point of speed on the bexp level to survive them anyway since the seraph robe is insufficient (a point of spd means she survives without the robe). Basically, there are ZERO enemies against whom the seraph robe means anything in a single round. The only thing it is good for is the robe plus imbue means if she happens to miss then on the following player phase she will have enough hp to risk a miss again without being healed.

Well, maybe not zero enemies, since if she pulls no spd on the level but gets a hp or a def the seraph robe allows her to survive 24 mt, so that's 3 out of ~14 enemies along the path that she'll actually take that a seraph robe plus a point of hp or def allows her to survive, and 10 of the other 11 she can survive at base level with nothing. Oh, and one of those 3 was the longbow user so he can't counter her anyway. A point of spd without the robe means 14 out of 14 can be survived rather than 13 out of 14. So a robe (with a point of hp or def) allows her to safely attack precisely 2 enemies that she couldn't have attacked before.

I still say being able to safely attack 11 enemies is plenty. 14 if she gets spd with bexp. (Well, more like 10 and 13, since she needs +1 str (or a sword card) and a max mt forge in order to do even 1 damage to the boss.) She doesn't need more than 9 or 10 kills here anyway, does she?

I guess it's a matter of knowing the layout for this chapter by heart. Considering I just spent hours on it testing stuff for supports I guess that makes it easier for me to know the layout. She really doesn't need a seraph robe here. It helps, but only in the event of a miss (and only in that we can delay healing an extra turn). Maybe in 1-E it helps, but not in 1-7. We can just make sure that she doesn't get attacked on enemy phase, like we would have to do even with a robe.

1 BEXP is all she needs to keep herself safe basically? That...doesn't sound bad at all. Is it just me getting hyped again, or...

AHA! Had a thought! Help keep her alive even more, why not give her Renewal?

Edited August 12, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

1 BEXP is all she needs to keep herself safe basically? That...doesn't sound bad at all. Is it just me getting hyped again, or...

Don't get too excited. It still isn't easy to do all this. First, there is a myrm and a soldier just north of the starting position. This is easy enough though since a few non-fiona units in your army can kill them safely and it's just 2 guys and afterwards the attackers and Fiona are safe. Then you have to start the slow painful process of drawing one enemy at a time. Remember, 13 enemies she can reasonably kill if she gets the 1 speed, but only 10 if she doesn't. If you draw two at once, you basically have to give up on one of them. So then you draw the armors one at a time, somehow find a way to get them down to 3 hp, then have fiona kill them. Then draw the archer, kill him, then use canto with Jill and Fiona to kill the soldier next to a door (if you got the spd proc), then draw the mages one at a time. Get someone else to draw and kill the iron blade myrm because we don't want Fiona anywhere near a myrm. Then get the hand axe armor below the middle room down to 3 hp and kill him, again using canto because of the longbow user about to come by. Then weaken and kill him. Then move down to the mages and the soldier. Then on to the bow users near the boss and weaken and kill them. We are looking at 12 turns or so without Fiona getting spd and being able to attack the two soldiers and hand axe armor (oops, guess the seraph robe helps her safely attack 3 guys, not 2, I think I already counted the longbow user as one of the 10 safe ones and then thought he was one of the 3...nvm) and 15 turns or so with that point of spd. So ~12 turns if she has 10 spd and 15 turns if she has 11 spd. If you want to be safe. And the easiest kills just went to Fiona rather than someone else. And we went over the turn limit to feed her all 10/13 kills.

Although, with a 01 Aran, I suppose if you want to use the guy she can have a C for 1-E easily enough since we just took 15 turns and she has canto. She could even pick him up since Aran won't be allowed to kill anything this chapter anyway because we are feeding everything to Fiona anyway. With saviour she doesn't even lose anything. 6 turns of holding him and it's done. Or 5 turns of holding and 1 turn next to him.

Still, aside from the -2 move thing this level does it was practically made for her. Low enemy density, lots of stationary enemies and no reinforcements that matter. Well, at the end of turn 11 you get 4 reinforcements next to the boss that aren't mentioned in the HM enemy list. Two armors (don't know their speed) and two mages that will be incapable of killing her. Muarim and Tormod can kill the armors and she can have one mage, or we can even block in the second mage and she can have both.

If you are willing to take long enough, she can safely have 12/15 kills depending on spd. It's just going to take ~14/17 turns at that point. Another cost.

I don't think Lyre ever really needs us to extend the turns beyond the limit.

As for renewal, that's 15 capacity. Before sealing it's impossible and after sealing I'd rather have paragon. Or just don't seal and it's not an option until 3-12, and I'd still rather have paragon.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

To think I was gonna ask if level 17 was rediculous for her by part 3...

This sucks. She's so close...If only an A was possible with Aran along with that...With Aran and a Seal, she could survive everything in 3-6. Without that +2 defense, she still fears the strongest cats (though she's safe from the psycho tigers just normally)

Edited August 12, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

To think I was gonna ask if level 17 was rediculous for her by part 3...

This sucks. She's so close...If only an A was possible with Aran along with that...With Aran and a Seal, she could survive everything in 3-6. Without that +2 defense, she still fears the strongest cats (though she's safe from the psycho tigers just normally)

I think you might be overestimating the amount of exp gained in HM. I have no clue how much she'd get from the 10 to 15 kills I could pull for her, but 1-E is a lot harder to pull off. She has to go off to the right side then back to the left side to go up stairs, move through the meteor mage's range and basically almost all the enemies move so it's rather difficult to feed kills, at least compared to 1-7. And now the whole 6 move thing matters because 8 move would likely make safety easier. And in 1-E she probably does need a seraph robe. The reason I'm making a big deal out of not needing it in 1-7 is you get another one in 1-8, so at least the one from 1-4 isn't sitting around in the inventory until 1-7 and can actually be used on someone else because Fiona can grab the 1-8 one.

And I think we are basically ignoring the cost of extra turns. Lyre likely doesn't need us to take extra turns. Fiona can probably pull 7 or 8 kills in 1-7 and still let us finish on turn 10, though we might give up on rescuing two soldiers in order to feed Fiona the mages near the far right room.

Point is, there is a cost to all this as well.

[Colonel M]

You know... I know Reyson is good but is he "really" over units such as Ike and Haar? I even question him over a unit like Volug who's never a detriment and still has decent availability. *Holds flame shield*.

[Jaybee]

*flames*

4 unit vigoring is broken as hell.

Actually, I'm starting to doubt Ike > Haar. Haar's stats are quite similiar to Ike's, and Haar can fly, which is extremely useful in 2-E, 3-3, 3-4, 3-7, 3-11, and he's got more mv, which means he can take out more enemies. And then there's Ike's forced promotion. I doubt Ragnell can make up for Haar's previous wins.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Joshybear25

[grandjackal]

That may be, but having to waste the first turn getting stoned (or if we're out of stones, 2 turns to blaze up on grass) is a problem with just about every other laguz on your team, because without grass he's easily the worst heron. Leanna and Raphael don't need to transfrom (hell, Raphael doesn't even WANT to transform), but Reyson does.

Basically there are turns where Reyson will be doing absolutely nothing. It should be accounted for.

As for Haar, I agree. He really is just the best character in the game. Around for longer, kicking more ass while he's at it, being the only one with flight utility for the mercs till the hawks show up, then when Ike shows up he's basically his stats with flight.

Only things I could see going against Haar is Ike's earth affinity and that he's forced into every map from his start onwards.

[Jaybee]

That may be, but having to waste the first turn getting stoned (or if we're out of stones, 2 turns to blaze up on grass) is a problem with just about every other laguz on your team, because without grass he's easily the worst heron. Leanna and Raphael don't need to transfrom (hell, Raphael doesn't even WANT to transform), but Reyson does.

Basically there are turns where Reyson will be doing absolutely nothing. It should be accounted for.

As for Haar, I agree. He really is just the best character in the game. Around for longer, kicking more ass while he's at it, being the only one with flight utility for the mercs till the hawks show up, then when Ike shows up he's basically his stats with flight.

Only things I could see going against Haar is Ike's earth affinity and that he's forced into every map from his start onwards.

It's the same availability. Haar has 2-P and 2-E, Ike has 3-P and 3-1.

Reyson's 4 person vigoring makes up for that.

Haar's practically forced since he's so damn good.

Damn, I didn't think of Haar's Wind, add another point for Ike.

[Interceptor]

Just using them runs counter to efficient game completion, but we have to use them to tier them, so what do you suggest we do? The only thing I could think of was removing them from the list.

I don't agree that you have to use a unit to be able to tier it.

If you want a tier list where you use every unit, you should make that the goal of the list, aka assume that they are deployed in all availible chapters. Expect units like Tormod to drop, because now we're forced to take them into Endgame for no particular reason at all. In this bizarro world, it's possible to prove that Fiona is less bad than Lyre, because Fiona does more with less. The problem is: this idea is completely incompatible with efficient play. I don't think that we've proven anything useful.

In my opinion, when you are talking about efficient play, Bottom tier is the home of manifestly useless units. They are crappy at base status, and they are so bad with resources that they hurt completion more by taking them than they would by giving them to someone else. They are so awful that the most efficent way to use them includes things like shoving a heron, Rescuing a random unit, trade-botting, face-blocking a ledge, or suiciding for the Greater Good<tm>.

If you want to compare Fiona and Lyre without breaking the concept of efficient play, compare them at the margins that I've listed above. I don't agree with this idea that every unit has to make combat comparisons or some other nonsense. The only reason that we make such comparisons in the first place is that a unit with better martial stats is generally more useful for efficient game completion. Meaning, Mia is not higher than Boyd just because she beats the snot out of him in combat, she's better than Boyd because her win in combat actually makes it easier to beat the game efficiently. If it made no difference in game completion, we couldn't argue that her combat prowess over him necessarily justified her into a higher position.

That's the way that I see it. There are really only three, maybe four units that fall into this category of utter uselessness (even Low tier is full of nothing but units that undeniably help you when they are deployed), so it's not as if you have to amputate half the list. I would either set the unholy trinity as roughly equal to each other, or I would argue their positions in Bottom based on nominally "useful" things like shoving.

[grandjackal]

Which case, why is Astrid in bottom? We're forced to use her in the CRK chapters, might as well use her, right? These other bottom feeders don't have the luxury.

[Interceptor]

Astrid is not forced in 2-3 or 3-9, only Geoff is (Kieran is forced in 2-3 as well). In 2-E she's forced, but she can't do anything useful. I actually think it's easier to beat chapter 2-3 without using her at all, since she contributes exactly nothing to the bumrush max-BEXP strategy, and in fact inhibits it by her somehow being worse than the yellow NPCs.

The only thing that Astrid has going for her is that she can potshot for free and get out of the way with Canto. She can get to A-rank bows and use Silencer for some very minor damage help in a Part 4 chapter, I suppose. This doesn't even raise her to the level of Sanaki, in my opinion.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Interceptor

[Colonel M]

It's the same availability. Haar has 2-P and 2-E, Ike has 3-P and 3-1.

Reyson's 4 person vigoring makes up for that.

I beg to differ. Leanne and Rafiel have about the same availability as Reyson and it's already pressuring enough. Ike and Haar beat him in availability. Then there's their different sort of utility (Haar's flying, Ike's Earth support) and being fairly durable.

Goes back to Marcus vs. the Dancers. It's true that Reyson can Vigor 4 units (transformed, until then it's only one or he wastes 1-2 turns) but you honestly have to question if it seriously makes him that much better than those two. I still could argue it with Volug too but... Ike and Haar are the closest which is why I'm using these two first.

[Narga_Rocks]

It's the same availability. Haar has 2-P and 2-E, Ike has 3-P and 3-1.

Reyson's 4 person vigoring makes up for that.

I beg to differ. Leanne and Rafiel have about the same availability as Reyson and it's already pressuring enough. Ike and Haar beat him in availability. Then there's their different sort of utility (Haar's flying, Ike's Earth support) and being fairly durable.

Reyson has more than double Rafiel's pre part 4 availability. And 1-8 is like 6 or 7 turns and 1-E he's even got some issues. As for Leanne, 5 vs. 4, so it's close I guess.

Goes back to Marcus vs. the Dancers. It's true that Reyson can Vigor 4 units (transformed, until then it's only one or he wastes 1-2 turns) but you honestly have to question if it seriously makes him that much better than those two. I still could argue it with Volug too but... Ike and Haar are the closest which is why I'm using these two first.

Don't the dancers only get one unit going again?

As for Haar, I agree. He really is just the best character in the game. Around for longer, kicking more ass while he's at it, being the only one with flight utility for the mercs till the hawks show up, then when Ike shows up he's basically his stats with flight.

On another note, what's with the haar and ike are the same statistically thing? Haar's got 20 base speed, Ike has 23. Haar has a 30% spd growth, Ike has 35%. Ike starts 1 below Haar's tier 2 cap. Once Ike caps str and skl, he can start slowplaying and building speed. He can end teir 2 at 28 spd pretty easily, and there is no reason not to slowplay him thanks to his forced promotion. Ike gets 30 speed for part 3 this way and doubles all but swordmasters and probably falcon knights in 4-1, and with a few levels there will be doubling in 4-4 all but swordmasters. Ike's offence absolutely rips Haar's apart. Haar takes a speedwing and a crown in order to double part 3, and still won't be doubling in part 4. Ike with a speedwing now doubles swordmasters, at least after we start boosting his spd with bexp. Haar being the only flier for a long time and rather durable (and no gauge) is what's keeping him in top. I don't think his offence has anything to do with it. Well, in 2-P his offence is great, but I mean outside of that chapter.

[Interceptor]

I personally think that the herons are over-rated. The most common two arguments that I've seen are:

1) Raisin is effectively as good as your four best units because of four-way Vigor, and

2) Dancers were regarded well in other tier lists, and herons are way better than Dancers, so they should be much higher.

I don't consider #2 to even be an argument at all, since Radiant Dawn is already really different from the other games anyway (split armies, laguz, etc). Units on this list should only be argued on their merits in this game, with this list's guidelines. Use some logic from another tier list, sure, but only if it actually fits in RD.

The reason that I don't buy #1 is that the herons in this game generally don't have amazing availibility. An argument can be made that being amazing in a chapter is nice, but there is a limit as to how much being amazing in one chapter can help you in the entire game. Raisin is, after all, helping you do things efficiently, but he is not like an EXP vending machine or anything that gives out free levels that help you in other chapters, his ability to alter the outcome of the game is mostly limited to the chapters where he is around (seven chapters plus Endgame). You have to protect herons, too, and whether you can use Vigor to its fullest extent often depends on circumstance or Canto or both. This is why Raisin is not exactly like having four Haars on your team.

[grandjackal]

Just to add in, Herons are also WAY more vulnerable than dancers in other games.

[Florete]

That may be, but having to waste the first turn getting stoned (or if we're out of stones, 2 turns to blaze up on grass) is a problem with just about every other laguz on your team, because without grass he's easily the worst heron. Leanna and Raphael don't need to transfrom (hell, Raphael doesn't even WANT to transform), but Reyson does.

We easily should have enough stones, and you can't really count it against him for "taking" one either since he helps other Laguz use grass more often. Reyson is like your four best units for all 7 maps and then Endgame he's in. Someone like Haar only has 13 pre endgame maps, so he'd have to be comparatively better than two of your best units to beat out Reyson, and then Endgame comes along and Reyson's win increases. Yeah, we usually don't put much weight to Endgame, but Reyson is a big part of the reason why.

Basically there are turns where Reyson will be doing absolutely nothing. It should be accounted for.

Other than the first turn, not really. He has 6 turns before reverting again. Chances are during one of those you'll be in a position where Galdr really isn't necessary, so he can Grass up, and by the time that runs out the map is over.

And everyone needs to remember that Vigor isn't even all Reyson can do. His Blessing heals 10 HP to up to four units a turn, which is up to 40 HP, which is like Rhys with a Mend distributed evenly to 4 units. Then there's Bliss and Sorrow, which can do wonders for helping characters dodge and hit things, and can actually be more useful than Vigor in the right situation.

As for Haar, I agree. He really is just the best character in the game. Around for longer, kicking more ass while he's at it, being the only one with flight utility for the mercs till the hawks show up, then when Ike shows up he's basically his stats with flight.

I've never been able to see Haar as the best character in the game. He's awesome, but he's slow, which means he's 2 rounding most things, possibly 3 rounding at times, his affinity sucks ass, and he's prone to dying by Thunder magic. Sure, he can use Nullify, but crits from it can still fry him and then the Hawks come in and compete for it.

Ike has much less issues doubling, which is quite a big offensive lead, has an awesome affinity which not only makes him even more invincible but makes someone else practically invincible as well, and is pretty much great throughout the entire game while Haar starts to slack in Endgame. It could also be mentioned that all of Ike's weapons are free, so he can pretty much be a unit that costs you absolutely nothing to use.

Just to add in, Herons are also WAY more vulnerable than dancers in other games.

Reyson's actually fairly durable. He doesn't get doubled by anything except SM's, and he can take a hit from practically anything, plus Canto.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire