OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

It does not apply to BEXP in the way of reducing or increasing BEXP consumption indeed. But it effects growths, which a level is used to measure it out. How do you know it doesn't effect the growths in a BEXP level?

Even if it did, what would it change? BEXP favors the 3 highest growths, and all of them go up by the same %, so they'd still be in the same order relative to each other.

[Zkirsche]

Blossom, like Paragon, does not apply on BEXP levels.

You can just bexp them up to 99 exp then have them level up the next chapter.

[Narga_Rocks]

For some, that wouldn't change anything. For others, Blossom+Paragon, especially for the likes of Lyre.

I missed this earlier. Blossom is 20 capacity and Paragon is 15.

Laguz have 35 capacity, but at least 5 is taken by shove. Lyre can't blossom + paragon. Once she hits level 30, she doesn't exactly need it much now. Not with a 64% chance to destroy something with rend.

The only beorc units that can blossom + paragon are Astrid and Geoffrey.

The only laguz that can blossom + paragon before level 30 are Skrimir, Kurth and Naesala (remove Vantage and Maelstrom). In other words, the "royals". As in, the ones that get an extra 30 capacity. Assuming all laguz are given their masteries, Nealuchi, Vika, Janaff, and Ulki can never equip both paragon and blossom at once. (45 capacity out of 70 is used). The rest will be able to once they hit level 30, but really Laguz gain so little exp at level 30 that you might as well bexp them up to 99 and then just let them have blossom without paragon. Even on HM you have enough bexp to do that once or twice.

[grandjackal]

It does not apply to BEXP in the way of reducing or increasing BEXP consumption indeed. But it effects growths, which a level is used to measure it out. How do you know it doesn't effect the growths in a BEXP level?

Even if it did, what would it change? BEXP favors the 3 highest growths, and all of them go up by the same %, so they'd still be in the same order relative to each other.

Avoids procs, thus none of that "But it might not happen! D:" stuff.

Blossom, like Paragon, does not apply on BEXP levels.

You can just bexp them up to 99 exp then have them level up the next chapter.

You don't even necessarily have to dump that much into them.

For some, that wouldn't change anything. For others, Blossom+Paragon, especially for the likes of Lyre.

I missed this earlier. Blossom is 20 capacity and Paragon is 15.

Laguz have 35 capacity, but at least 5 is taken by shove. Lyre can't blossom + paragon. Once she hits level 30, she doesn't exactly need it much now. Not with a 64% chance to destroy something with rend.

The only beorc units that can blossom + paragon are Astrid and Geoffrey.

The only laguz that can blossom + paragon before level 30 are Skrimir, Kurth and Naesala (remove Vantage and Maelstrom). In other words, the "royals". As in, the ones that get an extra 30 capacity. Assuming all laguz are given their masteries, Nealuchi, Vika, Janaff, and Ulki can never equip both paragon and blossom at once. (45 capacity out of 70 is used). The rest will be able to once they hit level 30, but really Laguz gain so little exp at level 30 that you might as well bexp them up to 99 and then just let them have blossom without paragon. Even on HM you have enough bexp to do that once or twice.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

You gotta be kidding me...T.T

Thought came do mind. Do cards do elemental damage, like...ohhh, let's say...Fire?

Edited August 14, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

Thought came do mind. Do cards do elemental damage, like...ohhh, let's say...Fire?

If only. I've never tested, though, but I don't see why they would. I think it's non-elemental, so even on EM/NM it should be outside the weapon triangle. I guess I can check it out on 1-E in NM with the mages there to see if it has a role in the weapon triangle.

Pretty sure it's non-elemental, though.

[grandjackal]

It's less for the triangle deal and more for the slayer effect...

[Narga_Rocks]

It's less for the triangle deal and more for the slayer effect...

Yes, but the simplest way to test it is to see if it takes part in the triangle. If it doesn't, there is no possible chance of slayer affect in 3-6 on the laguz. If it is part of the triangle and beats wind, then there would be a chance. That's what I was going for.

[grandjackal]

It's less for the triangle deal and more for the slayer effect...

Yes, but the simplest way to test it is to see if it takes part in the triangle. If it doesn't, there is no possible chance of slayer affect in 3-6 on the laguz. If it is part of the triangle and beats wind, then there would be a chance. That's what I was going for.

Oh. Well you're very much on top of things ^^;;

[Interceptor]

I don't want to get into this opportunity cost for Bottom tier units argument again, I just noted it as an advantage against other Bottom tier units since she has this method of improving herself available to her.

Lyre has the method of improving herself called "I hit her with all three Energy Drops and two Speedwings and a partridge in a pear tree" except I'm not sure what this is supposed to be proving.

That's a very simplified way of saying it. What if one of my characters got a +2 HP and +1 Def as a result of taking a few extra turns on 4-E-2 and then on 4-E-3 I find that character with like 3 HP left after an unlucky Dragon hit? I just saved myself a restart, which is definitely worth taking a few extra turns for, especially if that was something like 5 turns into 4-E-3.

What you've just described is an exception to the general rule. I'd say that this specific scenario is unlikely enough that it doesn't make a very large difference in the overall calculus of turn counts.

Or what if it helps units get to the magic 34 Spd? Suddenly a few more units can ORKO Spirits and double Auras with Nasir that might not have been able to, and given the nature of 4-E-5 with AOE attacks and shit like that, I'd say 4 turns in 4-E-2 is worth cutting even one turn from 4-E-4 and 5.

What if it does help some units get to 34 SPD? If having 34 SPD doesn't cut off more turns than the amount that you spent getting there, what have we gained overall?

Only the top 10 units are ever played. Yeah, that's pretty much what you just said, especially since I never even implied that Calill or Soren are definitely going to Endgame, just noted what they can do should they go.

I did not imply that only the best 10 units are ever played. The implication was that Rafiel does not require a Sage on his team -- a Sage being a less likely event than an optimal team -- he only needs two units that are forced anyway. If you could do this with, say, Tibarn, that would be less of an advantage for Rafiel since Tibarn's a lot more likely to show up on an Endgame roster than Soren.

And I think we can handle a single turn of no Wishblade. And one situation of a turn 1 win does not suddenly make Rafiel superior or even on par, since there are more likely situations than that one.

Considering that the only win condition for this chapter is that the BK dies, and that having the Wishblade on turn 1 means that you can clear on Turn 1 without needlessly paupering yourself of an SS weapon, I'd say that this is an advantage that Rafiel has claim to. Sure, it's minor, but there's no shortage of extremely nitpicky points being made back and forth here.

I don't get what you're trying to say against Reyson here.

Then I will say it again with different words: the meme that Raisin is worth your four best units is provably a falsehood. In this very specific example that I gave, the difference is that Raisin is only giving out Player Phase action. Your strongest units tend to be more than their Player Phase.

It's pretty much what I said. He gives you more flexibility on the enemy phase (much more) and while he doesn't actually perform on that phase, what he did allowed those units to perform as well as they did. Not giving him this advantage is like not giving healers the advantage of healing because what the unit does after being healed is their own performance and not the healers, but that obviously makes no sense.

I'm not denying that Vigor is useful, or saying that it's not a plus for Raisin, I'm pointing out that Vigor is what it is, and nothing more.

And this game doesn't exactly have "heavy" enemy phase either. Sure, it's generally bigger than player phase, but I think you're overstating it.

Regardless of the specific magnitude of Enemy Phase, I hope that you can argee that Raisin is not really putting his finger in that pie, aside from flexibiltiy in placement. The man is not cloning units, ergo he is not worth the units that he Vigors.

How often do you actually have those units use their full move in a way Reyson can't catch up with them enough to at least move back two spaces?

I will assume here that you are conceding the point about his durability.

About his move, it's not just a situation where units use their full move. Sure, there are situations where units will be anchored in one place, or move at a slower pace, but it still happens that you have to wall him in to keep him safe. Consider that even if he transformed on the first turn, he only has his untransformed move, so he already starts at a deficit if you are moving out. Also, he might have to move laterally whereas the frontliners can keep a general formation, aka he's burning MV without making forward progress.

And apparently Reyson is the only unit in the game that might have a few turns where he doesn't do anything. Units never have to heal themselves anymore? There are always enemies around for someone to fight? I don't see how this is a significant argument against Reyson when it can generally apply to anyone at some point. I'm sure I can find two turns per map where Ike and Haar won't really be "doing" anything.

Vigor is the only really significant thing that Raisin does at all. Blessing is kinda lol, I am sorry, he does not have the base MAG to make it good for anything more than upkeep on random units that don't need to heal right away. It's true that most units will run into situations where they aren't doing anything of note, but I'm pointing this out because Raisin would actually be better if he didn't have to do this, and it's unlikely that you'd ever find yourself in a situation where you couldn't put a Vigor or Bliss to use.

In a way, it is germane to this discussion. It's one of those times where personal experience kind of does "mean" something, especially since you're the one that assumes the player is a tactical genius. I find the enemies to be placed so that I can easily use a combination of rangers, cantoers, and frontliners into a diamond formation for Reyson to Vigor.

I agree that PEMN only applies to the RNG, and not tactic (where PEM Everything). I don't think that you understand my position on the tier player being a tactical genius, because otherwise you wouldn't be asserting that my argument is that the tier player can break the laws of physics. I only say that the tier player does not do something that runs counter to the goals of the tier list, because that doesn't make any sense at all.

You find that you "can easily" do it, but you're including units like archers and people with Canto that may not necessarily even be around. It's very easy to make it so that Raisin can Vigor 4 units every turn whilst transformed. Any fool can do that. What's hard is doing the same while SIMULTANEOUSLY maximizing efficiency, which means that your best units may be nowhere near Raisin, or that they are in a bad Vigor position, etc. I am not saying that a smart cookie can't do something like have Mia make a potshot with a Wind Edge so that she can get in on a Vigor and use her real weapon, but that these situations are not easy to force consistently without slowing you down or limiting your options.

No logic behid it? Are you suggesting that making every chapter you're in a complete joke is illogical?

I'm saying that there is an upper limit to how much any one unit can do. If it takes 10 turns to clear a chapter without unit X, but with unit X it takes 1 turn, clearly I am not really able to shave 15 turns off my total in this single chapter. That is the theoretical maximum. Raisin is not even as good as this intentionally exaggerated unit.

Who has to fire up ledges? The guys at the immediate right come down to you, and the guys in the middle left can be killed by going up the side, and those are Sages so Haar doesn't want to face them anyway.

Anyone who wants to kill an enemy on a ledge, of which there are several, would want to fire up a ledge. Haar does not need to compromise, or go around, he just flies up and rocks faces. As Narga pointed out, Haar's issue with Sages can be dealt with in a number of ways. Also, he can dump someone up on a higher elevation.

And then there are the other advantages Reyson has, like providing a free Fire support to someone like Ulki or Janaff who are often borderline, which is much better than Haar's Wind. He has Blessing, which can heal 10 HP to a unit if a healer wasn't around and they can't heal themself for any reason. Bliss and Sorrow, which can help our guys kill guys like boss much easier if a Vigor isn't needed. Limiting Reyson's advantages to Vigor isn't accurate.

I mentioned Blessing earlier in this post, and Bliss/Sorrow are usually inferior to Vigor so it's not much of an argument. Affinity is fine, but the effect is not large, and whoever you support with him is locked to Tibarn's route if they want to use it, and I'm not sure that's where you want to be sending Ulki or Janaff.

EDIT: also, good luck simultaneously keeping Raisin safe, and his hawk partner within 3 tiles. Also, sucks about how the hawks want to fight further afield.

It's funny, because I recall you once saying that Reyson was too good for even Haar to beat. But, people and ideas change, I guess.

It's all about the tier goals. But even if it wasn't, I think it'd be pretty dumb for me to hold the same opinion on everything all the time even in the face of evidence to the contrary. I used to think that Marcia was the best unit to train in Part 2 Normal, are you going to hold me to that, too?

Edited August 14, 2009 by Interceptor

[Florete]

Lyre has the method of improving herself called "I hit her with all three Energy Drops and two Speedwings and a partridge in a pear tree" except I'm not sure what this is supposed to be proving.

Wow, why did I even bother? We'll never agree on this point, I'm just going to drop it.

What if it does help some units get to 34 SPD? If having 34 SPD doesn't cut off more turns than the amount that you spent getting there, what have we gained overall?

As I said, an easier time in 4-E-4 and 5. I find those to be more difficult than 4-E-2, especially if my units lack the necessary stats, so taking 4 more turns in 4-E-2 to shave off 2 turns in those (and 4-E-3 as well) gives me an easier time completing the game while still keeping up with "efficiency."

I did not imply that only the best 10 units are ever played. The implication was that Rafiel does not require a Sage on his team -- a Sage being a less likely event than an optimal team -- he only needs two units that are forced anyway. If you could do this with, say, Tibarn, that would be less of an advantage for Rafiel since Tibarn's a lot more likely to show up on an Endgame roster than Soren.

Considering that the only win condition for this chapter is that the BK dies, and that having the Wishblade on turn 1 means that you can clear on Turn 1 without needlessly paupering yourself of an SS weapon, I'd say that this is an advantage that Rafiel has claim to. Sure, it's minor, but there's no shortage of extremely nitpicky points being made back and forth here.

The problem here is that it's not even likely we'll clear it on turn 1. Ike needs 34 Spd, which he doesn't naturally reach until very late, or with BEXP, possibly ~20/12, but that's probably too high as well unless he got Paragon in one of his 3 maps. If he got a transfer, it'd be more likely, but transfers don't hold that much weight.

In other words, for Rafiel to be better, we have to 1)assume that we want to clear 4-E-2 as fast as possible, which has its own advantages and disadvantages, and 2) assume Ike was lucky enough or high leveled enough to have 34 Spd. And this is only one of the 5 endgame maps.

Then I will say it again with different words: the meme that Raisin is worth your four best units is provably a falsehood. In this very specific example that I gave, the difference is that Raisin is only giving out Player Phase action. Your strongest units tend to be more than their Player Phase.

And I keep saying that the extra player phases they get extend into better enemy phases. How can you not count that? If Ike was able to move 5 more spaces and kill 3 more enemies as a result of being Vigored, Reyson should get partial credit for that, if not full, as well as whatever it was that Ike did on the player phase other than just Wait, because Ike would not have been there if it hadn't been for Reyson. Same for the other 3 Vigored units.

So even if he gets just half credit, that makes him worth ~2 units every time he Vigors, meaning he'd be at least twice as good as Haar or Ike, and they don't have more than twice his availability to make up for it.

Regardless of the specific magnitude of Enemy Phase, I hope that you can argee that Raisin is not really putting his finger in that pie, aside from flexibiltiy in placement. The man is not cloning units, ergo he is not worth the units that he Vigors.

He, as a unit on the field in his little square, does nothing on enemy phase. That's true. We all know that. But what he did on the player phase. Well, that just helped up to four units do better on this enemy phase, so even though he's not actually "doing" anything, his effects last. It's like that comment I made about the healers, which you made no mention of.

Vigor is the only really significant thing that Raisin does at all. Blessing is kinda lol, I am sorry, he does not have the base MAG to make it good for anything more than upkeep on random units that don't need to heal right away. It's true that most units will run into situations where they aren't doing anything of note, but I'm pointing this out because Raisin would actually be better if he didn't have to do this, and it's unlikely that you'd ever find yourself in a situation where you couldn't put a Vigor or Bliss to use.

That's true, but it's an overblown point. One missed turn is just like anyone else, but we don't nitpick their performance for it.

You find that you "can easily" do it, but you're including units like archers and people with Canto that may not necessarily even be around. It's very easy to make it so that Raisin can Vigor 4 units every turn whilst transformed. Any fool can do that. What's hard is doing the same while SIMULTANEOUSLY maximizing efficiency, which means that your best units may be nowhere near Raisin, or that they are in a bad Vigor position, etc. I am not saying that a smart cookie can't do something like have Mia make a potshot with a Wind Edge so that she can get in on a Vigor and use her real weapon, but that these situations are not easy to force consistently without slowing you down or limiting your options.

But I mentioned that part about enemy placement because I find it easy to both attack normally (maybe changing things up a bit, but it's worth it) and still make the formation for Reyson to get into. With 3+2+lots of Cantoing units, this is a lot easier than you're making it out to be. And since Reyson can fly over all terrain, getting him to them isn't a big deal either.

I'm saying that there is an upper limit to how much any one unit can do. If it takes 10 turns to clear a chapter without unit X, but with unit X it takes 1 turn, clearly I am not really able to shave 15 turns off my total in this single chapter. That is the theoretical maximum. Raisin is not even as good as this intentionally exaggerated unit.

We can't judge units on the exact number of turns they save us, though. If we did that, it would cause some major frustration in tiering units from Mid and below. The fact that Reyson makes these chapters so laughable easy and fast is what makes him so epic.

Anyone who wants to kill an enemy on a ledge, of which there are several, would want to fire up a ledge. Haar does not need to compromise, or go around, he just flies up and rocks faces. As Narga pointed out, Haar's issue with Sages can be dealt with in a number of ways. Also, he can dump someone up on a higher elevation.

What about the part where almost no one will actually ever shoot up a ledge due to enemies coming to us? Haar's flight isn't helping the team significantly more than usual here.

I mentioned Blessing earlier in this post, and Bliss/Sorrow are usually inferior to Vigor so it's not much of an argument. Affinity is fine, but the effect is not large, and whoever you support with him is locked to Tibarn's route if they want to use it, and I'm not sure that's where you want to be sending Ulki or Janaff.

Blessing is just icing on the cake. Obviously it's situational, but +10 HP to some random unit can be very helpful in the right situation, and Haar can't do this.

EDIT: also, good luck simultaneously keeping Raisin safe, and his hawk partner within 3 tiles. Also, sucks about how the hawks want to fight further afield.

How the hell is that hard? I assumed he was already close enough to support but not close enough to enemies. That's easy in like every chapter because only 3-10 and 3-E are wide open, but even 3-E has that middle part your fighters will likely be clogging up anyway.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't know if I'm biased for Ike, but I kinda like Ike > Reyson > Haar. Ike is just that good. Elincia is point and kill in 2-E and 4-5 and 4-E (though part 4 requires paragon in 4-2, but that's minor). Ike is point and kill for everything but swordmasters and generals in part 3, and at times in part 4 he can even kill generals. A transfer Ike can kill swordmasters, too, but transfers are minor I suppose. Haar's flight is awesome, yes, but it's countered by the fact his flight isn't always awesome and his offence is rather inferior to Ike's. Without Reyson I can pull things off well enough. I'd likely give up on killing some things in 3-5 and feeding kills to Mist and some other things I like doing but don't need to do like stealing Purge in 3-10 and Bolting in 3-E, but no matter how awesome his vigoring is I don't think he's as game-breaking as Ike.

What about the part where almost no one will actually ever shoot up a ledge due to enemies coming to us? Haar's flight isn't helping the team significantly more than usual here.

Well, the sages don't move, I think. The swordmasters in the southeast move, sure, but it wastes at least a turn of movement to kill them that way. Haar can save a turn for the units going up the middle ledges, and a turn for the units going after the ballista user. This is one example of where Haar is really really good. Another is 3-3 (don't really think I need to go into detail on this one). Or if you value stealing stuff and selling the statue frag then he's helpful in 3-2 for being able to pick Heather up after she steals something and get out of range of the boss. Best way to steal stuff. Drawing the boss elsewhere and locking him in is also doable, but Air Haar is better. Air Haar also prevents Heather from getting killed by the units from which she's stealing. Haar is also rather useful in 3-7 with all the water. Moves better, has no gauge, can maybe pick up transformed Ranulf. Not sure on the last, but Haar has 42 wt and I think cats weigh less than wolves and Volug has 40 wt. The hawks have 16 and 20 transformed wt, so they can pick up untransformed Ranulf (14) but not the transformed version. Anyway, Haar's flight is very very good at times.

Besides, I gave Haar a nickname, you haven't given Reyson one. Think about it. Nicknames mean you are better. (sorry, that was lame.)

[Jaybee]

I don't know if I'm biased for Ike, but I kinda like Ike > Reyson > Haar. Ike is just that good. Elincia is point and kill in 2-E and 4-5 and 4-E (though part 4 requires paragon in 4-2, but that's minor). Ike is point and kill for everything but swordmasters and generals in part 3, and at times in part 4 he can even kill generals. A transfer Ike can kill swordmasters, too, but transfers are minor I suppose. Haar's flight is awesome, yes, but it's countered by the fact his flight isn't always awesome and his offence is rather inferior to Ike's. Without Reyson I can pull things off well enough. I'd likely give up on killing some things in 3-5 and feeding kills to Mist and some other things I like doing but don't need to do like stealing Purge in 3-10 and Bolting in 3-E, but no matter how awesome his vigoring is I don't think he's as game-breaking as Ike.

What about the part where almost no one will actually ever shoot up a ledge due to enemies coming to us? Haar's flight isn't helping the team significantly more than usual here.

Well, the sages don't move, I think. The swordmasters in the southeast move, sure, but it wastes at least a turn of movement to kill them that way. Haar can save a turn for the units going up the middle ledges, and a turn for the units going after the ballista user. This is one example of where Haar is really really good. Another is 3-3 (don't really think I need to go into detail on this one). Or if you value stealing stuff and selling the statue frag then he's helpful in 3-2 for being able to pick Heather up after she steals something and get out of range of the boss. Best way to steal stuff. Drawing the boss elsewhere and locking him in is also doable, but Air Haar is better. Air Haar also prevents Heather from getting killed by the units from which she's stealing. Haar is also rather useful in 3-7 with all the water. Moves better, has no gauge, can maybe pick up transformed Ranulf. Not sure on the last, but Haar has 42 wt and I think cats weigh less than wolves and Volug has 40 wt. The hawks have 16 and 20 transformed wt, so they can pick up untransformed Ranulf (14) but not the transformed version. Anyway, Haar's flight is very very good at times.

Besides, I gave Haar a nickname, you haven't given Reyson one. Think about it. Nicknames mean you are better. (sorry, that was lame.)

Raisin = Reyson.

I might agree with that, though Ike has a forced promotion, which means he can't get any more stat-ups that aren't from stat boosters.

[Narga_Rocks]

Besides, I gave Haar a nickname, you haven't given Reyson one. Think about it. Nicknames mean you are better. (sorry, that was lame.)

Raisin = Reyson.

I've only ever seen int use that, not Red Fox. By my (faulty) logic, int is basically making Reyson better than Haar, since I've only seen him use a nickname for Reyson. Of course, I need to give Ike a nickname, now. Earthquake? no. Earth's Hammer? Well, against BK, maybe. I think Air Haar > Earth's Hammer.

I might agree with that, though Ike has a forced promotion, which means he can't get any more stat-ups that aren't from stat boosters.

I think Ike's forced promotion is almost an excuse to slowplay and bexp him. All he really needs is that speed boosted, and with bexp he can get 28 for level 20 and 30 for level 20/1. If it wasn't for the forced promotion, slowplaying Ike would have a higher opportunity cost. He still doubles and ORKOs all but generals and swordmasters all the way through to including 3-E, so I don't see his forced promotion getting in the way. He doesn't need to be constantly killing once he hits level 20 to be awesome. He just needs to be able to kill when we need him to do so, strap on a steel blade or steel sword to weaken better than anyone else, and with his physical presence force enemies to go attack someone else if we equip Ragnell. Being a moving shine barrier at times is good too. It lets us block with him and some other unit and make sure that the other unit gets kills and stuff on enemy phase.

Basically, even at level 20 when we might want to limit his kills he's still awesome.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

Why is Geoffrey so high? He only has 2.5 more chapters of availability compared to Volke and yet he is in the tier above him. I know he's useful in 2-3, but it's not impossible with Kieran + Marcia + Danved. How come Janaff and Ulki don't get that king of attention compared to Nailah when they're easily two of the best units in your team?

[Jaybee]

Should Kurth be . Renning? I can't the the 5 mv monster does anything good except +5 Def & +5 Res, which is only really good against Dheg and Ashera, whereas Renning can use a good variety of weapons to do way more damage.

[grandjackal]

Should Kurth be . Renning? I can't the the 5 mv monster does anything good except +5 Def & +5 Res, which is only really good against Dheg and Ashera, whereas Renning can use a good variety of weapons to do way more damage.

Kurth's got enough room for Paragon+Blossom. With this, he can actually turn into a monster pretty quickly. That is, if it boosts growths by 50%...

Otherwise, Paragon works fine. Either way, that +5 def and resistance is pretty nice for the first two parts. Can help the tanky become even tankier (like Gatrie). His water affinity helps too, though I forget if he has any relevent quick supports...

Another thing is he can basically get all the exp he wants for free in Deg's part. From there on, he's got Formshift, which with a bit of leveling helps him with his resistance problem, and now able to go against spirits without much worry. Some people don't handle spirits well. The +5 resistance helps, and Formshift Kurth has the benefit of being constantly transformed without a gem, so he's always able to give these bonuses without danger. By now, he's probably hitting pretty hard as well.

Renning on hte other hand...is completely mediocre and stays that way. He doesn't even average out the strength to be able to 2RKO auras with a brave axe, of which you only need 34 Str to do. In fact, would you find it hard to believe that defensively, Kurth actually starts off better outside of the untransformed deal? It'll stay that way too, as not only does Kurth level faster (his base is basically a 20/20 beorc. Yes, leveling like he's not tier 3 yet at this point in the game), but he has more room to grow and generally superior growths all around. On top of that, Kurth's got night tide, and his water affinity when it kicks in will actually help someone, as when the spirits come in, Earth is next to useless.

Basically the only argument you could have possibly for Renning's favor is transformation, of which there are plenty of stones by then, and dragon gauge runs slow. Practically a null factor.

Oh, did I mention Renning's offense is only better at melee or with a forge? Kurth actually has superior 1-2 range, which helps his offense and defense alltogether.

Kurth's got a lot going for him. Might have to be careful with him, but he makes up for his meh in other ways. Renning on the other hand is a completely self-serving mediocre unit.

I also wouldn't call move relevent in endgame, as the maps are considerably cramped, or the enemy is just right at your face.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Jaybee]

Otherwise, Paragon works fine. Either way, that +5 def and resistance is pretty nice for the first two parts. Can help the tanky become even tankier (like Gatrie). His water affinity helps too, though I forget if he has any relevent quick supports...

And how is 5 mv (6 untransformed, but now he's in danger of being killed by 1-2 range. Or bolting.) helping him get anywhere?

Another thing is he can basically get all the exp he wants for free in Deg's part. From there on, he's got Formshift, which with a bit of leveling helps him with his resistance problem, and now able to go against spirits without much worry. Some people don't handle spirits well. The +5 resistance helps, and Formshift Kurth has the benefit of being constantly transformed without a gem, so he's always able to give these bonuses without danger. By now, he's probably hitting pretty hard as well.

Efficiency much? In an efficient playthrough we wouldn't have Kurth and Ena running around dealing pitiful amounts of damage to enemy dragons. We'd run up and smack Dheg's face on the second turn.

Renning on hte other hand...is completely mediocre and stays that way. He doesn't even average out the strength to be able to 2RKO auras with a brave axe, of which you only need 34 Str to do. In fact, would you find it hard to believe that defensively, Kurth actually starts off better outside of the untransformed deal? It'll stay that way too, as not only does Kurth level faster (his base is basically a 20/20 beorc. Yes, leveling like he's not tier 3 yet at this point in the game), but he has more room to grow and generally superior growths all around. On top of that, Kurth's got night tide, and his water affinity when it kicks in will actually help someone, as when the spirits come in, Earth is next to useless.

I'll quote Vykan here.

4-E-1: Even when quadruple attacking, Elincia falls slightly short of ORKOing generals (they have 48-51 hp/29-30 def, so she’s doing ~88% damage), and again I’m going by NM stats here. Renning, on the other hand, has the option of using the hammer, and with it he has 70 effective MT, meaning he’s doing 160% damage for a very comfortable ORKO. This is basically the story of this chapter since according to HM enemy data, generals make up 59% of the enemies here, and the rest are sage/bishop enemies aka jokes to kill.

4-E-2: Not much to say here. Even if we don’t 2 turn this chapter with hammer!Ike, both Elincia and Renning double about the same amount of enemies, so they’re more or less tied here.

4-E-3: Both units can use wyrmslayers against dragons. But then both double (lol 12AS dragons) and Renning has an atk lead, so he wins offence overall albeit not by much. Defensively, both get 2HKOed by either dragon type, which means Elincia has the advantage due to superior avo. Then again, neither are reliable in that department (75% hit vs Elincia as opposed to 91% vs Renning) and Renning at least has sol which can auto-heal him whenever it activates.

4-E-4 to 5: Assuming both units have hit max level by now, Elincia has a 7 res advantage, but Renning also has 13 more hp. This means that they will only tie in hp once both have taken 2 magic attacks, at which point Elincia jumps ahead, but by then they would have been healed had they needed it. I’ll concede Elincia wins offence, though this is only really the case if Renning cannot get himself a brave axe or sword.

Last thing to note: Renning can support Caneighis for some tubular earth x earth bonuses. This would allow Renning to roughly tie Elincia’s avo in 4-E-3, and then eventually surpass her, all the while giving better outgoing support benefits.

As you can see, 4-E can be called either way. That means Elincia’s most definitely not winning there by a huge margin, which as said before, she needed to win the overall match-up.

Basically the only argument you could have possibly for Renning's favor is transformation, of which there are plenty of stones by then, and dragon gauge runs slow. Practically a null factor.

Other than no first turn for 4-E-1 to 4-E-3.

Oh, did I mention Renning's offense is only better at melee or with a forge? Kurth actually has superior 1-2 range, which helps his offense and defense alltogether.

Alondite.

Kurth's got a lot going for him. Might have to be careful with him, but he makes up for his meh in other ways. Renning on the other hand is a completely self-serving mediocre unit.

I also wouldn't call move relevent in endgame, as the maps are considerably cramped, or the enemy is just right at your face.

4-E-4 ftw.

More mv = getting into a better position to smack people = more people weakened/dead.

[grandjackal]

And how is 5 mv (6 untransformed, but now he's in danger of being killed by 1-2 range. Or bolting.) helping him get anywhere?

Have you seen how cramped endgame is? You don't need much move to run into things.

Efficiency much? In an efficient playthrough we wouldn't have Kurth and Ena running around dealing pitiful amounts of damage to enemy dragons. We'd run up and smack Dheg's face on the second turn.

Considering Kurth's as strong as Renning is with a 12 mt weapon (meaning he needs like a silver pole-axe to outdamage Kurth)...

On top of this, the dragons don't fight back against Kurth and Ena. This is excellent chip damage against something like a White Dragon, to help someone else finish it without taking a counter.

Renning on hte other hand...is completely mediocre and stays that way. He doesn't even average out the strength to be able to 2RKO auras with a brave axe, of which you only need 34 Str to do. In fact, would you find it hard to believe that defensively, Kurth actually starts off better outside of the untransformed deal? It'll stay that way too, as not only does Kurth level faster (his base is basically a 20/20 beorc. Yes, leveling like he's not tier 3 yet at this point in the game), but he has more room to grow and generally superior growths all around. On top of that, Kurth's got night tide, and his water affinity when it kicks in will actually help someone, as when the spirits come in, Earth is next to useless.

I'll quote Vykan here.

4-E-1: Even when quadruple attacking, Elincia falls slightly short of ORKOing generals (they have 48-51 hp/29-30 def, so she’s doing ~88% damage), and again I’m going by NM stats here. Renning, on the other hand, has the option of using the hammer, and with it he has 70 effective MT, meaning he’s doing 160% damage for a very comfortable ORKO. This is basically the story of this chapter since according to HM enemy data, generals make up 59% of the enemies here, and the rest are sage/bishop enemies aka jokes to kill.

4-E-2: Not much to say here. Even if we don’t 2 turn this chapter with hammer!Ike, both Elincia and Renning double about the same amount of enemies, so they’re more or less tied here.

4-E-3: Both units can use wyrmslayers against dragons. But then both double (lol 12AS dragons) and Renning has an atk lead, so he wins offence overall albeit not by much. Defensively, both get 2HKOed by either dragon type, which means Elincia has the advantage due to superior avo. Then again, neither are reliable in that department (75% hit vs Elincia as opposed to 91% vs Renning) and Renning at least has sol which can auto-heal him whenever it activates.

4-E-4 to 5: Assuming both units have hit max level by now, Elincia has a 7 res advantage, but Renning also has 13 more hp. This means that they will only tie in hp once both have taken 2 magic attacks, at which point Elincia jumps ahead, but by then they would have been healed had they needed it. I’ll concede Elincia wins offence, though this is only really the case if Renning cannot get himself a brave axe or sword.

Last thing to note: Renning can support Caneighis for some tubular earth x earth bonuses. This would allow Renning to roughly tie Elincia’s avo in 4-E-3, and then eventually surpass her, all the while giving better outgoing support benefits.

As you can see, 4-E can be called either way. That means Elincia’s most definitely not winning there by a huge margin, which as said before, she needed to win the overall match-up.

4-E-1-Everything not a general though is too fast for Renning. On top of that, he's stuck to one range with the hammer f that's all he's gonna use. I'd take Kurth making people 5 def and res tougher than Renning just being able to kill armors with an incredibly valuable weapon.

4-E-2-He forgot to mention that that isn't many enemies exactly. Few armors in this chapter. They also tend to come to you, so again, Night Tide>being mediocre.

4-E-3-2HKOd? Not exactly helpful when you're forced to take the counter, and have no wa of countering range. With Cover and Night Tide, Kurth can actually help someone takemore than 2 or 3 shots of deadly dragon breath. Aran for example can, with the help of Kurth, find a way to take around 5-7 red dragon breathes. On top of that, Kurth can still do chip damage to something like a White dragon, and basically can walk through this chapter with impunity. Speaking of which, Dehg. I'd LOVE +5 defense if it helps me take another blast of his breath.

4-E-4-Brave weapon indeed does help him here, but like hell it'll be the brave sword. Either way, Kurth will have actual levels by now and Formshift. Spirits are a bit weak, but by then he could probably just take them out anyways. He'll have resistance built up, they won't be able to do much damage. They might not even attack him anwyays, he's tough and can counter them always. Renning is by far a more endangered target. He needs a 1-range weapon to actually be able to kill them, low resistance, Earth affinity being the equivelent of dick to their hit...Renning's in far more danger than Kurth is at this point.

4-E-5-You need 34 Str to 2RKO auras with the help of blood tiders, and on average, Renning does not hit that. Kurth won't either, but at least we can manage something with BEXP to get him somewhere. On top of that, Kurth helps defend us against spirits, as I doubt we'll be taking down the auras all in one turn, so at least Kurth has a way to make up for it. Renning just remains mediocre.

Other than no first turn for 4-E-1 to 4-E-3.

Barely matters for 4-E-3, he doesn't get attacked anyways, and in 4-E-1 and 2, no enemies start in your range save a few generals. He won't miss the beginning player phase.

Alondite.

Now why should he get it when he's one of the worst users of it? You don't get this till 4-E-3.

4-E-4 ftw.

More mv = getting into a better position to smack people = more people weakened/dead.

Yes, being an incredibly vulnerable unit that struggles to kill with anything while giving no real bonuses in return, that'll win you brownie points.

[Narga_Rocks]

@Pretty Boi Wolf: You are too trusting on this one.

4-E-1: Even when quadruple attacking, Elincia falls slightly short of ORKOing generals (they have 48-51 hp/29-30 def, so she’s doing ~88% damage), and again I’m going by NM stats here. Renning, on the other hand, has the option of using the hammer, and with it he has 70 effective MT, meaning he’s doing 160% damage for a very comfortable ORKO. This is basically the story of this chapter since according to HM enemy data, generals make up 59% of the enemies here, and the rest are sage/bishop enemies aka jokes to kill.

4-E-1-Everything not a general though is too fast for Renning. On top of that, he's stuck to one range with the hammer f that's all he's gonna use. I'd take Kurth making people 5 def and res tougher than Renning just being able to kill armors with an incredibly valuable weapon.

Actually, about half of the generals have 26 or 27 speed. Renning starts at 29. He's only doubling the 25 or 24 spd Generals. He's got a 40% spd growth so he needs 2 levels just to have a 64% chance of getting it, so at what point in this chapter is a level --/--/16 character going to have 2 levels? Probably near the end, if that. So he's not one rounding over half of them, but fortunately he has an 83% hit rate on them even with the hammer, so with true hit he isn't likely to be missing and suffers only about a 10% chance of missing at least once in two swings. Considering Kurth is also pulling a 163 hit just like Renning with a Hammer is, I'd say Renning likely wins offence with a hammer. Trouble is, lots of other units can use the hammer, they'll actually double all the generals, and many of them have enough levels remaining to gain better stats for the rest of endgame than letting Renning use the axe will give him. Further, Kurth can fly. So some of those sages and other enemies on the sides are easy for Kurth to get to but not Renning.

So even though other people would like the hammer and we usually say he might not get it because there are others, the main point for not giving him one is that they double all of them, he doesn't. It's simply not logical to give Renning the hammer on HM. On NM, sure, he doubles almost every single one of them. Maybe there are a couple at 26 speed he doesn't. It's like half here. At least Renning has more hit than some of the others due to higher skill and luck, but Nolan and Jill still do quite well hit-wise on these things with a hammer so I can't even let that save Renning since Nolan and Jill should actually double all the generals.

4-E-2: Not much to say here. Even if we don’t 2 turn this chapter with hammer!Ike, both Elincia and Renning double about the same amount of enemies, so they’re more or less tied here.

4-E-2-He forgot to mention that that isn't many enemies exactly. Few armors in this chapter. They also tend to come to you, so again, Night Tide>being mediocre.

I'd actually be more concerned with Renning not actually doubling particularly much here. He doubles 4 out of 9 generals, 6 of 9 if he managed to pull spd with his 40% growth. On average a max level Renning only has 30.6, and he's not going to be level 20 here, so I can't imagine 31 spd to double the rest. There's two bishops that can't attack, don't move, and don't even seem to like healing stuff. I've had enemies with 30% hp remaining not get healed and the bishops just sit there. He doubles 4 to 6 enemies that matter in the entire map. (No, Levail doesn't matter, since he's sage-bait.) So Kurth's 42 mt isn't actually all bad. Renning has more, but Kurth pretty much weakens everything enough for units to ORKO anyway. So Renning basically lets Sothe kill something that Sothe might not be able to kill if Kurth hits it. Yay Renning. You help us train Sothe. I suppose Kurth will miss more, but Night Tide more than makes up for it when you consider the number of enemies locked to one range charging up if you let them.

4-E-3: Both units can use wyrmslayers against dragons. But then both double (lol 12AS dragons) and Renning has an atk lead, so he wins offence overall albeit not by much. Defensively, both get 2HKOed by either dragon type, which means Elincia has the advantage due to superior avo. Then again, neither are reliable in that department (75% hit vs Elincia as opposed to 91% vs Renning) and Renning at least has sol which can auto-heal him whenever it activates.

4-E-3-2HKOd? Not exactly helpful when you're forced to take the counter, and have no wa of countering range. With Cover and Night Tide, Kurth can actually help someone takemore than 2 or 3 shots of deadly dragon breath. Aran for example can, with the help of Kurth, find a way to take around 5-7 red dragon breathes. On top of that, Kurth can still do chip damage to something like a White dragon, and basically can walk through this chapter with impunity. Speaking of which, Dehg. I'd LOVE +5 defense if it helps me take another blast of his breath.

Yeah, I don't really see Renning winning here. He's got access to wyrmslayers, and we can have plenty for Ike and a trueblade and renning. We can have 5, and if we know we are taking Renning along we might as well plan ahead and get them all if we are taking enough sword users. It'll let him ORKO the whites, and get the reds low enough for just about anyone to kill. But either way he's still taking a counter, so he'll likely be cantoing away in fear of death. He's 2HKOd by both types and needs Kurth or a tile to not be. With 97 (+8 with C) avo against 165 hit they are pulling decent hit. So he's not dodging much. So he either equips some range weapon and lets one dragon attack him on enemy phase and hides from the rest, or he attacks with a wyrmslayer and runs away if/when he gets hit. He's really not doing so well here. Like you said, Kurth can actually be useful, and for once his Night Tide isn't putting him in harm's way since the dragons don't attack him. The dragons have decent move and some wide open spaces, Renning might not always be able to attack and canto away without setting up a pseudo wall or an actual wall.

4-E-4 to 5: Assuming both units have hit max level by now, Elincia has a 7 res advantage, but Renning also has 13 more hp. This means that they will only tie in hp once both have taken 2 magic attacks, at which point Elincia jumps ahead, but by then they would have been healed had they needed it. I’ll concede Elincia wins offence, though this is only really the case if Renning cannot get himself a brave axe or sword.

Last thing to note: Renning can support Caneighis for some tubular earth x earth bonuses. This would allow Renning to roughly tie Elincia’s avo in 4-E-3, and then eventually surpass her, all the while giving better outgoing support benefits.

As you can see, 4-E can be called either way. That means Elincia’s most definitely not winning there by a huge margin, which as said before, she needed to win the overall match-up.

4-E-4-Brave weapon indeed does help him here, but like hell it'll be the brave sword. Either way, Kurth will have actual levels by now and Formshift. Spirits are a bit weak, but by then he could probably just take them out anyways. He'll have resistance built up, they won't be able to do much damage. They might not even attack him anwyays, he's tough and can counter them always. Renning is by far a more endangered target. He needs a 1-range weapon to actually be able to kill them, low resistance, Earth affinity being the equivelent of dick to their hit...Renning's in far more danger than Kurth is at this point.

Well, three brave weapons, every single one of them better with someone else. Still, I'll give renning level 20 and a brave axe, and I'll make him take that earth x earth since vykan was touting it and joshybear didn't try to give Renning something more useful. So he's got a C Cain and + 15 avo. So I'll give him that 31 spd now that it's useless and say 24 luck since I was being so nice with speed, 62 + 24 + 15 + 15 = 116 avo against 170 on average, so 54%. 49 from thunder, 55 from fire, 60 from wind. And let's say 24 res. Stick him on a wardwood tile or give him a ranged weapon for enemy phase. So, 33 str means 44 mt with a brave axe. Interestingly enough, he fails against fire spirits since he comes up 1 mt short to their 40 hp/25 def, and just barely ORKOs the wind and thunder. (38hp/23 def, kills them by 4 extra). On a cover tile, well he fails miserably, but it takes guys like Ike to kill them. Or Mia with her support active for wind and thunder. Obviously Shinon and the double bow. Still, with 33 str he fails on fire spirits, so I think I'd rather give the axe to someone that can actually kill them from scratch when they aren't on a cover tile. Fortunately he does pull it off with a brave sword on wind and thunder. However, guys like Haar can ORKO these things even on cover tiles with one blood tide and the brave axe. Boyd as well, though Boyd won't need blood tide for wind and thunder spirits.

As for Kurth, he's invincible at base level on a wardwood tile. If he isn't on one he needs a few levels before he overcomes being doubled to be more durable than Renning, but not giving Kurth levels is kinda unfair to him. He has 1-2 range, so he'll only be attacked anyway if all your units the spirits can attack also have 1-2 range. In which case since Kurth does like 9 damage to them while they are on cover tiles they'll attack him. Still, with a few levels he can walk with impunity again setting up Night Tides, without a few levels you can still find a nice wardwood tile near an enemy and allow a unit to attack something and have Night Tide if they don't have the positioning to attack from wardwood. All Renning does is steal one of the best swords from a better unit.

4-E-5-You need 34 Str to 2RKO auras with the help of blood tiders, and on average, Renning does not hit that. Kurth won't either, but at least we can manage something with BEXP to get him somewhere. On top of that, Kurth helps defend us against spirits, as I doubt we'll be taking down the auras all in one turn, so at least Kurth has a way to make up for it. Renning just remains mediocre.

Kurth isn't there for his attack. His accuracy is so bad in that chapter. Renning has 34 x 2 + 24 + 15 = 107 base hit. He now has a virtually useless B Cain, so he's pulling 131 avo and enemies have 190 to 201 hit. So he's facing 59 to 70 listed hit against. With that base hit and 33mt, he can have 53 mt and no doubling if he takes Vague Katti away from trueblades. Hmm, 53 mt, isn't that what Mia has when in range of her support? Doesn't she double without Nasir? Okay, so 51 mt with Alondite. Wait, no, I can have a unit double with that too. 52 mt with a forged axe. So 95 hit with max hit and 202 hit. 135 avo. So he's pulling 67 listed, or 78.55% true hit. Isn't that rather unreliable? I mean, we'd like to be able to avoid as many attacks from Ashera as possible. Plus he'd only do 22 damage that way anyway. Sure, we can use bloodtide to increase damage and accuracy, but blood tide is better used on units that doulbe.

So let's give him a brave weapon. Sword or Axe? The axe has 80 hit and 11 mt, so he gets 44 mt and 187 hit. So now he's pulling 52% hit, or 54.4% true and not very likely to hit twice at all. Even if he does, that's only 28 damage anyway. 38 with one blood tide, 48 with two. With one blood tide he has 62% listed, 71.5% true. Still about even odds on whether or not he even hits both times. 48 gives him 72 listed or 84.6% hit, but he's still got a good chance of missing once and Elincia (for example) with double blood tide (and Nasir) and her support active ORKOs auras with 100% accuracy. So giving Renning double red just for an 84.6% hit chance and 24 damage per hit seems a bit silly. The sword boosts his accuracy, but drops his mt to 42 and means 62 listed without blood tides, still a 71.5% chance of hitting so even odds on hitting twice, now only 34 damage with one blood tide instead of 38, and 44 damage with two blood tides. At least that is semi accurate with 82 listed or 93.7% true. Still a waste of positioning with reds, even with his cantoing, considering it is just a one range weapon.

Kurth competes for a slot with Sothe and Sanaki (the two units likely kicked out for Nasir and Gareth). Renning competed with 4 royals, giffca, and a lot of trained units with far better stats. Whether they simply doubled more stuff or didn't double but had good strength leads and actual A supports going in. Whatever the case, if Renning isn't being punished for taking his slot, Kurth shouldn't be punished for removing Sothe and Sanaki. Kurth at least helps out with surviving. If we decide to let the spirits live for some reason, that helps out. Even if we just let someone attack an aura and the spirits are dead it is possible that unit wouldn't have the hp to survive Ashera's next attack and Kurth can help. To be honest, Renning might win this chapter, but it's like 3 turns. Only because Kurth doesn't do all that much so even gumming at the auras with a silver axe forge is likely more than Kurth's night tide and horrid hit%s on auras. I think canto saves Renning in this chapter.

Other than no first turn for 4-E-1 to 4-E-3.

Barely matters for 4-E-3, he doesn't get attacked anyways, and in 4-E-1 and 2, no enemies start in your range save a few generals. He won't miss the beginning player phase.

Kurth starts with a full gauge for 4-E-3, so he's looking at two maps. In 4-E-2, if you aren't super durable running down and attacking the enemies is a good way to get killed. So Renning and Kurth are about even here since either one just gets into position for enemy phase. In 4-E-1, Kurth can still set up a Night Tide for someone who gets countered while attacking a General and Kurth can stone/gem. So yeah, he won't miss it much in 4-E-1, and that's the only place in which it matters.

Alondite.

Now why should he get it when he's one of the worst users of it? You don't get this till 4-E-3.

Yeah, that's kind of an issue. Too bad it's impossible to get S strike for Kurth in an efficient playthrough of HM. Not that anyone said that, just saying it would help. As it is, Renning with a tempest or storm sword has worse hit issues than he did with the other weapons, so that isn't helping in 4-E-4 and beyond. Against dragons he is actually best served by 1 range and player phase only. Think about it, he can only ever let one dragon attack him anyway, 2 if he's on a tile, he'll do more damage with wyrmslayer on player phase to one enemy that even two attacks with a two range weapon on enemy phase. Unless we heal him all the time (like, twice per turn) when we are healing others as well, or burn through fortify earlier than we really need to Renning is mostly stuck to wyrmslayer usage and sometimes getting healed. So alondite is out in 4-E-3, he doesn't double in 4-E-4 with it so why would he get it when we have numerous sword users that actually double? And it's pointless in 4-E-5 since he'd have the same hit issues as he did with the brave axe but now only get one shot at hitting and does nothing if he misses and only 21 damage if he hits. Besides, he has canto so why does he even need a 2 range weapon there?

4-E-4 ftw.

More mv = getting into a better position to smack people = more people weakened/dead.

Yes, being an incredibly vulnerable unit that struggles to kill with anything while giving no real bonuses in return, that'll win you brownie points.

All he kills are thunder and wind spirits that aren't on any defence giving tile. And that's with a brave axe and the super duper earth x earth support. I know earth x earth is practically worthless at this point, except if you can get the enemies down to really low hit against you. Which a C support isn't. Amusingly, even an A support isn't. Not for Renning anyway. But nobody has actually suggested a support that would actually be good for Renning. I wouldn't quite say an incredibly vulnerable unit. Even 24 res and 58 hp would mean 4 hit by wind or 5 hit by fire/thunder. So effectively 5 hit since even one fire/thunder means 5 hit even if the rest are wind. Still, I rounded up with the res and the hp, so it's easily possible he could be 4 hit KOd by a combo of 3 winds and one fire/thunder. Anyway, if there are that many alive and able to move, Renning should be parked on a wardwood tile. Simple as that. It is sad that 8 have a fairly good chance of killing him, and 5 have a non-zero chance of killing him, but I wouldn't actually go so far as to say "incredibly vulnerable". Especially since on a wardwood tile it takes 12 wind spirits to kill him. Or 29 fire/thunder.

It's just that he really doesn't actually do much to counter Kurths' ability to make someone invulnerable or at least harder to kill. Kurth even makes Gareth more usable if you'd like to have 2 blood tides for all those cover tile loving spirits. All Renning is doing is less than what every other fighter is doing.

They might be pretty close, but it might depend on how bad you see Renning taking a precious slot when he'll be worse than just about anybody you could have possibly trained to get here. Really, if Renning isn't punished for this, then nobody should ever be punished in any chapter for taking a slot when there are better units. Like any of the CRKs in 3-11 and 3-E. Or any of the not as good GMs in part 3 when there are 5 to 10 more units than slots. Or guys like Edward and Leo in 1-7, 1-8, 1-E when there are again a fair amount more units than slots. The only way to see Renning > Kurth is to disregard the concept of negative utility. Which I'm okay with, by the way, but then we might have to change lots of things on the list.

As for the Renning vs. Elincia junk, between a higher rate of mastery activation (and two shots before enemy counters), possibility of cancel (two shots at it vs. 1 and a lower spd), being the poster child for what we want from paragon in 4-2, pretending Renning actually doubles what Elincia doubles(quads) in 4-E-2, similar production with wyrmslayers in 4-E-3 (Though Elincia ORKOs whites with amiti anyway), being able to ORKO spirits even when they are on cover tiles, nuking auras with dragon skills and 100% hit rates and doing better without dragon skills anyway. Also since Renning isn't killing half the generals in 4-E-1 with a weapon he shouldn't have anyway and without that weapon isn't killing the rest Elincia's 4 shots at stun blow him away. I don't think you can use what Vykan said for how Renning matches Elincia as justification for Renning > Kurth.

[grandjackal]

To clear a couple things up.

-Kurth has bad accuracy on the auras, but he has the advantage of range. He basically is doing whatever Renning is doing without a brave axe, except it's easier to set up. Example, put Kurth a corner upper right of hte upper right aura. Gareth and Ena can be next to him, and both will get a defense boost. Ena will basically be invincible, and Gareth will certainly enjoy the boost. They in turn help with his accuracy, and he blasts the aura (or at least tries, but +10 skill and Str certainly helps with his 1-2 range). Now the thing is, these two dragons next to him can attempt to blast the aura, Gareth with his own breath and Ena with a card or something. Basically, the three dragons could attempt to contribute offensively, though it might be a bad attempt. They have nothing to lose from trying. Now on top of this, these dragons got an open spot next to them for the mid right and the upper mid aura, and a space behind them for a ranged guy to utilize their blood tide for the auras in front of the red dragon in case they failed to destroy it. This in total would be 2 spots for melee and 2 spots for ranged. Renning on the other hand has to have them by his sides as he is stuck to melee. He needs them more specifically placed, which only leaves 1 spot for melee and 3 spots for ranged. Chances are we have far more going melee than ranged. Point is, Kurth is more flexible with his positioning of the dragons themselves, while Renning always needs them by his side when he attacks, even if he does canto.

-For the spirit chapters, this requires him to park on a wardwood tile. Canto helps, but what if one isn't in canto ranged? He's got a good chance of being doomed. 5 might seem like a big number, but do note how much move spirits have and do note every angle they can attack him from. He could eaisly get zerg swarmed, while Kurth is once again nigh-unstoppable in comparison.

...Man, I like the dragons in this game. For once, they're actually useful.

Also, I think I know why Mak was in lower mid ;;>> Man, now I feel bad. Turns out on promotion, he's got A Axes. This means uhh...Hammer and...Brave Axe ;;>> Considering how tough he ends up, his speed prior to the auras and that he could get strength BEXPed for the spirits to utilize a brave weapon better...;;>> He could actually be pretty good endgame.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Shadow Mir]

...Man, I like the dragons in this game. For once, they're actually useful.

Also, I think I know why Mak was in lower mid ;;>> Man, now I feel bad. Turns out on promotion, he's got A Axes. This means uhh...Hammer and...Brave Axe ;;>> Considering how tough he ends up, his speed prior to the auras and that he could get strength BEXPed for the spirits to utilize a brave weapon better...;;>> He could actually be pretty good endgame.

I like the dragons except for Gareth.

[Narga_Rocks]

To clear a couple things up.

-Kurth has bad accuracy on the auras, but he has the advantage of range. He basically is doing whatever Renning is doing without a brave axe, except it's easier to set up. Example, put Kurth a corner upper right of hte upper right aura. Gareth and Ena can be next to him, and both will get a defense boost. Ena will basically be invincible, and Gareth will certainly enjoy the boost. They in turn help with his accuracy, and he blasts the aura (or at least tries, but +10 skill and Str certainly helps with his 1-2 range). Now the thing is, these two dragons next to him can attempt to blast the aura, Gareth with his own breath and Ena with a card or something. Basically, the three dragons could attempt to contribute offensively, though it might be a bad attempt. They have nothing to lose from trying. Now on top of this, these dragons got an open spot next to them for the mid right and the upper mid aura, and a space behind them for a ranged guy to utilize their blood tide for the auras in front of the red dragon in case they failed to destroy it. This in total would be 2 spots for melee and 2 spots for ranged. Renning on the other hand has to have them by his sides as he is stuck to melee. He needs them more specifically placed, which only leaves 1 spot for melee and 3 spots for ranged. Chances are we have far more going melee than ranged.

Canto. Sorry, that kind of hurts.

Let's give Renning something actually useful for endgame rather than double earth. He's got a 00 with Elincia, and she has staves and Renning gets injured lots. It won't take much for Elincia and Renning to pull a C for 4-E-2. To continue getting one support level per map, we'd need to actually spend a few turns on them, though. Still, 3 heals and 3 adjacents in 4-E-2 gets us a B for 4-E-3 and repeat to get an A for 4-E-4. We can likely 3 turn 4-E-2 and 4-E-3 and still get an A for 4-E-4 if we really wanted. Compared to a C in 4-E-3 and a B in 4-E-5 with cain he gets 8 extra avo in 4-E-2 thanks to Elincia, same avo in 4-E-3 because C earth x earth gives the same avo as B earth x heaven. Another 8 extra avo in 4-E-4 compared to the cain support. And in 4-E-5 when avo is no longer actually needed or useful a B cain has 7 more avo than an A Elincia. So Renning misses out on nothing by going with Elincia until 4-E-5 when the avo no longer matters. In return, we fix all of his hit issues in 4-E-4 and most in 4-E-3 and 4-E-5. Fixes all hit issues in 4-E-5 with dragon skills. So now he gets +27 hit to pull him out of uselessness. Remember that 62 hit he used to have with a brave sword? Well, let's try more like 89 listed hit. Now give him double dragons and he's pulling 100% with a brave sword doing 44 damage guaranteed every single time. One blood tide gives him 34 damage and 99% listed hit. He is not likely to be missing.

Now, this prevents Elincia from getting the +mt support from which she'd likely benefit more, but this is about Renning, not Elincia.

Try something for me:

Normally I'd have Elincia do part of this on her own, but Renning + Haar will suffice.

AAA

ExN

_G_

So the three auras at the bottom is what we are looking at. The E is for Ena, the N for Nasir, the G for Gareth.

So now Renning has a brave sword, Haar has a brave axe/lance. Renning has 42 mt, Haar has 49 mt. With double blood, it's 52 and 58/59.

Renning moves into the x, does 44 damage with a 100% hit rate, moves out. Haar waltzes in, let's ignore his hit rate, and does 56/58 damage, moves out.

Now, there's a dead aura and a spot open. At this point it's best to have Marcia with the wishblade attack a cover tile aura and have Calill use Nasir to finish it off. It works with rather low str and mag scores for each of them. Marcia with an A support and 28 str has 52 + 10 mt vs 40 def, so she does 44 damage. Calill has a 14 mt weapon and Nasir for 19 and her support for 21, so she needs 53 mt to finish off the aura. Which is 32 magic. Calill can even stand under Nasir to get the skill boost from Gareth and thus extra hit. Tanith would work, too, but Tanith needs a higher level to get 34 speed than Marcia does for 28 str. Anyway, sadly there aren't any other canto wishblade users with 34 speed. So Jill with a forged hand axe and 35 str and a +mt support would have 35 + 2 + 14 = 51 mt. Oh well, Calill now needs 33 magic, or 32 magic and to support fire/water/dark. Drop Jill's level and raise Calill's magic and the aura still dies.

So now we have this:

AAA

ABA *(B for boss)

A__

E_N

_GC

and the 3 cantoers are elsewhere.

So in waltzes Shinon. He gets about a 70% hit rate or something at 3 range with double blood tide, so he could just attack the bottom left aura and the dragons cancel the cover tile and he pulls 100% hit rate and assuming slowplaying to cap his tier 2 str he has 35 str at level 16. So the double bow gives 60 mt, 70 mt vs. 40 def thanks to blood tides. He pulls 60 damage on the cover tile aura. Or if we used others to kill it and send Shinon against one of the side auras he doesn't have a great hitrate, but 70 is decent, and does either 40 damage or 80. Lower his level a bit and he's still doing pretty well. Even 32 str means 54 damage to the cover tile auras or 37 or 74 damage to the side auras. Well, 0 if he misses twice, but that's unlikely. Anyway, you might notice nasir is in position to allow someone to double the aura on the right side. So now Ike or another 34 speed unit can stand above Nasir and double the aura above.

Point of all this is, Renning can easily make use of two blood tides without preventing us from killing 4 auras in one turn. Without Vigor. Use Mia x Tibarn both with parity on the bottom left aura, Jill x Calill on the bottom right, Renning x Haar on the bottom middle, Shinon x Ike on the side right. We have 16 non-heron units and just used 11 of them to kill 4 auras (8 + dragons). There is still a spot above Ena for someone to use to attack the aura there, or 5 characters to kill 3 spirits to make survival guaranteed (think pass and 9 move units with 34 speed for the top one, or 7 + celerity, but only reavers and marksman beorc can have two 15 cap skills, or Cain, Nailah, Naesala, or 7 + boots.) So the only time they have a reasonably high chance of missing is Ike and Shinon attacking the side aura. Say they hit 3 out of 4 times. Ike has 37 + 18 + 2 (A Mia) = 57 mt. He does 27 in one hit, 54 in two. Shinon does 37 damage with just 32 str and 74 in two hits. You might notice that any 3 out of 4 of these will take it down. So it's actually not very likely they'll miss 2 out of 4, but if they do one of the 5 characters remaining can finish it off. Still have 4 characters for the spirits, which should be sufficient.

-For the spirit chapters, this requires him to park on a wardwood tile. Canto helps, but what if one isn't in canto ranged? He's got a good chance of being doomed. 5 might seem like a big number, but do note how much move spirits have and do note every angle they can attack him from. He could eaisly get zerg swarmed, while Kurth is once again nigh-unstoppable in comparison.

...Man, I like the dragons in this game. For once, they're actually useful.

Well, there aren't that many spirits that move, really. The 4 around Sephiran don't, the 3 southwest of Sephiran don't, the 3 southeast don't. We can blitz a few spirits nearby on the first turn since a lot of spirits start on wardwood tiles. Mia and Ike are good for this. Micaiah having 32 speed is unlikely but then even she can blitz thunder spirits (needs 51 mt, simple enough with rexaura and her mag growth, the trouble is 32 spd). Or sages standing next to Nasir can help with the blitzing. 29 + 5 speed doubles all of them, and with meteor and Nasir's +5 that's 13 mt on the weapon, and 49 mt kills thunders, 50 kills fires, 51 kills winds. So even a mage with just 36 magic can assist in some way. Micaiah with 39 magic and a support and 29 spd can kill any spirit with purge. This helps for the ones starting on cover tiles.

Anyway, you can significantly reduce the number of spirits that move on the first turn. And they all come to you, so you can kill the remainder on the second turn. As long as you use turn 2 to kill everything that moved on turn 1 enemy phase the only thing that will ever move to attack afterwards is reinforcements. Considering that's only like 3 or 4 per turn...

Renning ends turn 1 on a wardwood tile, Renning lives for the entire map. If you can get enough of them on turn 1, Renning may not even need to end turn 1 on a wardwood tile. Really, the 20 move these things have hurt more than help them. They don't have canto so all they do is come at us.

[grandjackal]

BAH! Either way, Kurth seems to win for the most part...

Hmmm....*looking over Makalov* His low starting level might get in the way, but...

[Jaybee]

Dang, I should have used Elincia X Renning in that debate.

I give up. I'm hopeless at bringing change.

EDIT: Now I can't see Neph > Micky and Laura. I just don't think Micky's fighting ability and Thani-bombing along with Laura and Micaiah's healing is worse than Neph's frailness come parts 2 and 3 when there's more fighters that do better than her.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Joshybear25

[grandjackal]

Dang, I should have used Elincia X Renning in that debate.

I give up. I'm hopeless at bringing change.

Chill man, you can't win them all. I should know. Besides, you were actually pretty close. If Kurth rises, Renning won't be far behind.

I find Kurth and Bastian debateable though. Bastian might have the advantage though...

Lol, KurthvsBastianvsDanved

Edited August 16, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf