OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

Responding to Narga later, don't have time now.

What happened to Elincia > Tibarn > Naesala > everyone that was below Elincia previously?

I wasn't sure about all the people in-between.

Not to mention I don't really get anything out of anyone else getting the draco. Yeah, I can make several people tougher, but we get 2 Seraph robes on top of that. On the other hand, Eddie's one of those people who can use it, then compound it with his defensive support.

Wtf? I already showed that Edward gets basically nothing out of the Dracoshield. Going from 2HKOd -> 2HKOd is worthless.

(which IS a long time of me not using it).

So what? If I get more out of it on someone later, that's more worth it. If I can make a unit go from 4HKOd -> 5HKOd, and then 3 maps later I can make a unit go from 2HKO -> 3HKOd, I'm saving it for the second unit. That's not even the situation here because Edward might as well have not used it in most scenarios.

I lol'd at the thought of giving the shield to Sothe or Volug. They can already do ANYTHING, what the fuck's a shield gonna do? Make them do more anything-er?

It'll help in late part 1/part 3/part 4. 20% and 15% respective Def growths isn't doing them any favors.

"But we could give the shield to Zihark! D :"

We're already giving him an Earth support he practically needs,

1. Not always

2. Being an Earth supporter himself, he's already more entitled to it anyway, since that helps his partner as well. You can't make it look like a disadvantage by saying he "needs" it. People try to do that with Sothe and his Beastkiller all the time.

Not only am I holding on to this for so long now, but now I'm basically spoiling Zihark just to have him still be inferior part 3 anyways to most of the cast.

Except, with the right support and usage, he's not inferior to most of the cast. Did you read my post? do you use numbers to back up any of yours?

But whatever, your entire high tier is spoiled brats save Mia, Sothe, Nailah and the hawks. Keep him up there for all I care, but I get something out of spoiling Eddie too. At the very least, I don't see an entire three tier gap just for 4 chapters of part 1. At least put Eddie above Calill, what the hell does she have on him? Seriously? I know you're gonna say staffs, I just know it.

1. We've had a lot of discussions on High tier units, so I don't know wtf your problem is there.

2. You haven't actually compared him at all to Calill, just said stuff like "What's so good about her?" Here's my awesome counter: Calill raeps, Edward phails. Calill > Edward.

IMO, all high tier is a mess.

You sound like smash. Funny thing is, you were a part of forming High tier the way it is now, so I have no clue what's going through your mind.

Tiering this game is tough it is, so I'd appreciate it if you quit whining because I made one post in rebuttal to your idea. But seriously, Edward > Zihark? (You did suggest it) No. Never. Won't ever happen. You've said yourself you can get hyped rather easily. Well, this one is major. I suggest you stop now. You might try closing the gap, that's fine, but if you go for Edward > Zihark, you will be crushed.

[grandjackal]

My first post said Eddie shouldn't fly to Zihark's level, which is currently high tier. But sorry, perhaps I just got a bit impatient. I just can't stand how this game just has so many characters who're practically useless, or might as well be compared to the strong guys of certain teams. I did pull a smash there I guess. I just WANT this game to be more balanced than it is, and I got frustrated, so...Sorry for blowing up like that. It's like reflex to me. I like to look into the intricacies of everything, and it just frustrates me when one little detail ruins everything.

But to compare Eddie to Calill...First off, I've already shown a bit of how well Eddie can perform at times, and Narga showed the uh..Actual data ;;>>

My question is what is it she actually does? 2-E and 3-9 she behaves like a simple mage. Attack, don't get attacked. Basically a glorified archer. Not exactly a lot of time she has of being rather average.

Then come part 4, she has to be trained just like Eddie does. Eddie has the upper hand here, because A. He's not paper, and B. He's doubling far more often. I mean, magic isn't exactly fantastic. By now, enemies have resistance. At best she's doing like one attack with a forge, while Eddie has swordmaster crit, skill for extra crit, Caladbolg, an already built up support (that actually wants him no less), basically every offensive advantage over her. I mean sure, eventually she'll start doubling I guess, but Eddie's been doing that for a while, and he's not stopping any time soon. Basically Calill is trained to be a magic sniper who happens to have Rexflame as a choice, who still needs Nasir to double auras anyways. Eddie on the other hand actually could double the auras without Nasir, and can choose from plenty of weapons. Vague Katti, Alondite, Brave Sword, Tempest Blade, what have you. Only way Calill can be useful at this point with that one single spell. I mean sure, staffs are a nice addition to make her versatile, but being a combat master is just amazing. Astra, Crit rates, Multiple attacks, class being one of the greatest cantidates for Adept, Brave Weapons, what have you.

Speaking of endgame, dragons.

9x Red Dragon lvl 25 (S Strike)

75 hp, 58 atk, 13 AS, 166 hit, 63 avo, 36 def, 20 res, 10 crit, 12 cev

6x Red Dragon lvl 26 (S Strike)

76 hp, 58 atk, 13 AS, 167.5 hit, 63.5 avo, 36.5 def, 20 res, 10 crit, 12.5 cev

8x Red Dragon lvl 27

77 hp, 58 atk, 13 AS, 169 hit, 64 avo, 37 def, 20 res, 10 crit, 13 cev

All of 'em can kill her if she's not 20/2. One shot. Unfortuantly they have 1-2 range, she has no way to attack them safely. On the other hand, Eddie's got Tempest Blade or Alondite, and doesn't die like he's made of paper. Not to mention with defense boosting swords, defensive supports, he can find ways to increase his own durability on quite a greater level than Calill. Calill's only hope is pretty much a cover tile.

I dunno, training her and you aren't even getting you full bang until the spirits and auras. I mean, Eddie's got his part 1 chapters where he is indeed great, part 3 he's capable of outperforming Zihark, a dude who's currently in high tier, and part 4 he's pretty much one of your best swordmaster choices due well rounded stats. Then on top of it, it's not like he's unable to perform against spirits and the auras. In fact, how DID Calill get up to Mid?

[Zkirsche]

wasn't sure about all the people in-between.

Comparing Tibarn to Ranulf is almost completely the same as comparing him to Naesala. Both pwn him when they exist together, end of story.

If that doesn't convince you, I should at least think to move Tibarn below Elincia for the reasons mentioned (aka: he isn't crushing her as much as one woudl expect).

[Narga_Rocks]

What happened to Elincia > Tibarn > Naesala > everyone that was below Elincia previously?

I wasn't sure about all the people in-between.

Well, we could at least do Elincia > Tibarn for now.

edit: ninja'd by kirsche

but if you go for Edward > Zihark, you will be crushed.

By me, too.

And at one point you suggested Zihark to middle and Edward to upper mid. That was certainly a peculiar idea.

But to compare Eddie to Calill...First off, I've already shown a bit of how well Eddie can perform at times, and Narga showed the uh..Actual data ;;>>

My question is what is it she actually does? 2-E and 3-9 she behaves like a simple mage. Attack, don't get attacked. Basically a glorified archer. Not exactly a lot of time she has of being rather average.

My issue with that statement is that in 2-E you are generally using two units to tank and the rest are attacking. Nephenee is a glorified archer from turn 2 or 3 on, but with doubling and a javelin and the +2 mt boost for throwing down a ledge she's actually not so bad. Calill is basically the same. Everyone here gets something. It's similar to 1-1 anyway, where Nolan does the majority of the tanking and most of the other units are just doing the finishing off since Nolan is busy self healing. As for 3-9, her and danved make a decent combination where he climbs up and guards her and he gets attacked on enemy phase and Calill and him attack on player phase, or some such. This one is a little more like a glorified archer though, I'll admit.

Then come part 4, she has to be trained just like Eddie does. Eddie has the upper hand here, because A. He's not paper, and B. He's doubling far more often. I mean, magic isn't exactly fantastic. By now, enemies have resistance. At best she's doing like one attack with a forge, while Eddie has swordmaster crit, skill for extra crit, Caladbolg, an already built up support (that actually wants him no less), basically every offensive advantage over her. I mean sure, eventually she'll start doubling I guess, but Eddie's been doing that for a while, and he's not stopping any time soon. Basically Calill is trained to be a magic sniper who happens to have Rexflame as a choice, who still needs Nasir to double auras anyways. Eddie on the other hand actually could double the auras without Nasir, and can choose from plenty of weapons. Vague Katti, Alondite, Brave Sword, Tempest Blade, what have you. Only way Calill can be useful at this point with that one single spell. I mean sure, staffs are a nice addition to make her versatile, but being a combat master is just amazing. Astra, Crit rates, Multiple attacks, class being one of the greatest cantidates for Adept, Brave Weapons, what have you.

Calill's got range. Besides, needing Nasir to double when she's standing in a spot nobody else is using isn't really a crime. Then she can take out over half a corner tile aura's hp if she has 53 mt. Rexflame is 14, Nasir is 5, her support is 2, she just needs 32 magic. Eddie isn't taking out over half an aura's hp with parity on a corner tile. 44 is close, but not there. And if Calill has a bit more than 32 magic, well for example with 34 magic she takes out 50 hp from the thing and it's left with 40, and now Eddie can kill it. Even Zihark could kill it if he's at a high enough level. Mia does 42 damage, so she just needs Calill to have 33 magic. Edward can do it if Calill has 32 magic. The one that is doing more damage is the better one. She wins 4-E-5.

In 4-E-4, Calill without Nasir needs 51 mt to ORKO the wind spirits. That's 35 magic with her support, that's 20/19 unfortunately. However, magic is 3rd best growth after 20/13, and only .05 outside of second and .1 over 4th. So if she's at a high enough level in the 4-E-3 and 4-E-4 base and has enough exp then she can get cheap bexp to boost the magic, most of the time. It might make it doable.

Anyway, she only needs 34 magic to ORKO the fire spirits, and 33 magic to ORKO the thunder spirits, so that's easy enough. With Nasir, she can ORKO the wind spirits with just 30 magic. Eddie isn't going to be ORKOing the fire spirits if they are on cover. Now, while it's true that Calill doesn't do as much if they are on wardwood, there's more +def tiles of either 15 or 10 on this map than there are of anything boosting res, and the spirits will choose to land on cover tiles if they attack something that counters physically, and often end up on cover anyway.

Then consider a blessed Meteor. She can basically use Nasir no matter what now, considering he has 4 adjacent squares before he moves and 4 after, and surely one of those 8 squares won't be within 3 panels of a spirit and she'll be able to use meteor from there since a spirit is almost assured to be within 10. So with Meteor and a support and Nasir she has 8 + 5 + 2 = 15 mt on her weapon. 34 magic ORKOs thunder, 35 magic ORKOs fire, and 36 magic likely isn't happening without spirit dust, but it can ORKO a wind.

So she's winning 4-E-4 too.

Speaking of endgame, dragons.

9x Red Dragon lvl 25 (S Strike)

75 hp, 58 atk, 13 AS, 166 hit, 63 avo, 36 def, 20 res, 10 crit, 12 cev

6x Red Dragon lvl 26 (S Strike)

76 hp, 58 atk, 13 AS, 167.5 hit, 63.5 avo, 36.5 def, 20 res, 10 crit, 12.5 cev

8x Red Dragon lvl 27

77 hp, 58 atk, 13 AS, 169 hit, 64 avo, 37 def, 20 res, 10 crit, 13 cev

All of 'em can kill her if she's not 20/2. One shot. Unfortuantly they have 1-2 range, she has no way to attack them safely. On the other hand, Eddie's got Tempest Blade or Alondite, and doesn't die like he's made of paper. Not to mention with defense boosting swords, defensive supports, he can find ways to increase his own durability on quite a greater level than Calill. Calill's only hope is pretty much a cover tile.

Why on earth would we let one of those things attack her? Blessed bolting makes her a destructive force. If we don't have that, she can still have Sanaki bless a meteor and they can trade it around and Calill has 41 mt at 20/10. (31 magic + 8 + 2). Sure, it doesn't do amazing things to whites, although it could easily bring them down to KO range for others. Against reds, though, it does 38 damage to 22 res and 42 damage to 20 res. Over half their health, and now other units can get the KO. Like, say, Edward and his wyrmslayer that doesn't 100% ORKO a red. Say thank you to Calill, Edward.

I dunno, training her and you aren't even getting you full bang until the spirits and auras. I mean, Eddie's got his part 1 chapters where he is indeed great, part 3 he's capable of outperforming Zihark, a dude who's currently in high tier, and part 4 he's pretty much one of your best swordmaster choices due well rounded stats. Then on top of it, it's not like he's unable to perform against spirits and the auras. In fact, how DID Calill get up to Mid?

She's also doubling Generals at ~19/8 or 18/9. And that's all of them. Even the 27 speed ones. With bolganone. 30 magic, 11 mt, +2 from supports, 43 mt. Generals have 23 to 25 res. Flare will KO the things, adept will KO the things. Or you could have a forged fire with 10 mt and 15 crit and she has 42 mt and still 3HKOs the things, well, except anything with 52 hp and 25 res. Anyway, she's got the same KO chances as Edward, except a little less spd for adept. She's also got a much better mastery and his doesn't activate at two range. She won't be too far off his proc rate. And she'll cause 36 to 40 damage when she procs nothing and leaves them with 10 to 16 hp. Easy enough for most other units to kill with a forge or an SS. And she's not taking counters and can generally allow one to attack her on enemy phase and then just not do it again until she pulls off a flare.

She's not even that bad here compared to him, just a little less enemy phase.

Also, her period of suck is like 3-11 and 3-E, his period of suck is the entirety of part 1 (sans 1-P). Well, he's excused from 1-1 and 1-2 simply because you don't have much else to work with for a lot of it, but still. It takes him far longer to climb out of his hole than it takes Calill to climb out of hers. Also, she's basically the best sage there is once she climbs out of her hole, while he's leagues behind Mia for most of part 4 and only slightly above Zihark depending on supports. Although with Zihark supporting Jill and Edward supporting Nolan the win is probably a bit bigger than it otherwise would be. So Calill also has the claim of best of her class working for her, though I guess that doesn't matter to most.

Oh, and at 17-1 she humiliates tigers in 4-5, if that helps. Sure, she's now even more of a glorified archer, but oh how great that glory is. Besides, she can still let them attack her once on enemy phase then wait for a flare before doing it again, or simply have Elincia or Bastian heal her. Or she can go and heal someone else to be useful and let the staff stay equipped and heal her.

Basically, she's also pretty wicked here.

I suppose in 4-P/1/2 Edward is actually a bit better, but I'm not seeing how that's enough.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

Nasir is 5

Nasir increases speed, not Atk, you're thinking of Ena/Gareth.

[Narga_Rocks]

Nasir is 5

Nasir increases speed, not Atk, you're thinking of Ena/Gareth.

Calill.

Nasir gives +5 magic and +5 speed.

It's awesome for mages.

[Florete]

Oh, by the way, a level 7 Edward has 21 hp and 6 defence. Cats in 1-4 have 18 mt. Edward is 2HKOd, even with a C support. Edward is 3HKOd with the shield (without needing to keep his supporter nearby).

I guess I missed that, but any Tiger + Cat combo will still kill him, and as you said, it's unlikely to see two Cats in a turn, but depending on how things happen, Tiger + Cat could be reasonable because they often come in pairs like that, especially at the top.

If he is slightly underleveled, then the draco helps on some enemies. Overleveled, it helps on others. A level 10 Edward has 24 hp and 7 def. His support means 8 def. 20 mt can 2HKO him. If this level 10 Edward exists in 1-5, then there are 5 enemies that have 20 or 21 mt and now 3HKO him. If he's only level 9, he has 23 hp and either 6 or 7 def. 7 or 8 with his support. 19 or 20 mt 2HKOs him. If this Edward pulled 7 def, then it's the same as level 10 Edward. If this Edward pulled 6 def, then 19 changes to 21. There actually weren't any physical units with 21 mt so he still has the 5 from before, but now he also has the two 19 mt myrms that no longer 2HKO him but now 3HKO him with the draco. Well, another two myrm reinforcements as well. That's now 9 units in this map alone.

There's no one with 21 except Wystan and he hits Res. And if he's gotten screwed, which is the only way the Shield "helps" him here, I'd question the viability of continuing to use him, especially since he'll just be 2HKOd more often as a result of having even less Def. And level 10 is pretty high anyway since we usually assume ~level 7 in 1-4.

Back in 1-2, let's say level 7 Edward. Assuming boss kill in 1-P and some kills in 1-1 since Nolan can't do everything and frequently ends up self healing on player phase after all the tanking. Maybe it's mid 1-2, whatever. 21 hp and 6 def. 17 mt 2HKOs him. 19 mt with the draco. Including reinforcements, it's 6 enemies that he's better against.

Except only 2 of those are reinforcements, one being an Archer (He doesn't get hit), and he might easily not see level 7 here since we only assume level 7 by 1-4 anyway.

Story doesn't end there, since there are also other weak enemies. Also, it takes 13 mt to 3HKO him. There is a 14 mt Myrm. This guy pulls crit. A draco means he only causes 6 damage and a crit is 18.

That Myrmidon is in the bottom left corner with the Chests. Sothe is fighting that guy when he goes down there to unlock the chests, not Edward.

Even back in 1-P, he can save vulnerary uses. Leo shows up turn 3. So he activates on turn 4.

What? By the time Leonardo shows up Edward should be far ahead. He won't be using the Shield until the end of this map if we want to clear it in a reasonable amount of time, so he'll only get it for the boss.

So no, he's not doritos. He's just another guy that can use the thing and help us out.

Being able to take a few more combinations of enemies on 1-2 is not a whole lot of help. Going from 2HKOd -> 2HKOd is worthless.

And considering, as you pointed out, he may very well be at risk of getting OHKOd, the dracoshield makes it a complete and utter non-issue.

It's like I said before. If he's gotten screwed enough to not be able to take it, I question the viability of continuing to use him since this just means he'll be 2HKOd by even lower numbers than I already showed.

Oh, as for 1-3, well sure, only myrms are turned to 3HKOs and they still have crit chance, but don't forget our somewhat limited vulnerary collection. Even at level 7, a 21hp and 6def Edward needs to use a vulnerary after getting hit, but with a draco there are lots of combinations where getting hit plus using a herb allows him to get hit again by almost everything without worrying about dying. That can be useful given the limited number of vulneraries as well as having just a one shot sacrifice with Micaiah and only one staff user.

I hardly find Vulneraries to be an issue, especially since they're buyable in the next base.

Ed is so low because of a bad part 1. Zihark is so high because of a good part 1. A Jill needs work. They have 1-5 (while we don't control where they end their turn) and 1-6 to build to C. I'll give you that, so in 1-7 they have a C. It's still 9 adjacents in 1-7, and 1-7 is 10 turns.

Wait, why is 1-7 only 10 turns? BEXP? I think I've made the point before that max BEXP is not always worth it, especially in part 1 where the amount is small anyway and we're trying to use tier 1 units effectively. If we really want to always get max BEXP, we'd have to overuse our Laguz and tier 2 units, and that would hurt our part 3 rather significantly. I have to guess since I can't seem to find my guide on this game, but 15 turns should be sufficient for half BEXP, and then our tier 1 units get more CEXP and building B ZiharkxJill shouldn't be too difficult.

They have to start adjacent (only one spot on the map where a pairing can gain adjacent points on the first turn that doesn't involve Micaiah, so they are stopping another pair from gaining points).

Well, If Micaiah broke it with Sothe, she can get hers rather easily. If we're still assuming EdwardxNolan, I'd think they could already be at A by now, so they don;'t need it, and I'd also assume we aren't using anyone else after Zihark and Jill because that would spread our experience too thin and we'd run out of Master Seals (4 for Edward, Nolan, Laura, and Jill).

In 1-E, they again must spend 9 turns adjacent, but at least this one has a turn limit of 12.

Same point as before, only a few more turns for extra flexibility and since this chapter is like one of the most annoying I really question if we care about max BEXP.

He is getting countered by everything except if he uses the brave sword on mages. Everything else the brave sword does not 2HKO.

Um, okay. Same for Edward, only worse.

As for the thickets, in order to only use 3 units to wall we can't use thickets. To involve thickets, the only way to maintain only 1 enemy facing per unit is to have at least 5 units walling (maybe it's 6).

Wait, are you sure? I don't have the map in front of me, but I remember being able to park some of my units in thickets while still maintaining a decent wall, at least considering how the swamp hinders Laguz.

So we are going with a level 5 Zihark?

Yeah, that's what I was doing.

Let's give him a B Jill or Aran, considering an A Jill is so hard it's funny.

I fail to see the humor.

So you rounded up 13.5 to 14 and gave him a draco and gave him 2 levels in 4 chapters when he's getting rather small experience.

Uh, no, I didn't. I rounded down. 13 at base, +2 with A Jill, +2 with Draco, +1 with Thicket. 13 + 2 + 2 + 1 = 18. Also, 4 chapters, but 5 maps. If he's not level 5 yet, he probably will be after like 1 enemy. Don't forget possible Paragon and boss kills in part 1.

And how did you get 110? Even on a thicket with A Jill, I'm seeing 100. Even if I give him level 7 and 25 speed, I still just get 102.

I don't really know, but yeah, it's only 100.

Also Zihark spends a long stretch of time on worst, so he could very well have 92 avo or 112. Ed goes in ~5 turn shifts, so at least we know he'll spend a few turns on best.

You can't really count this against Zihark. I could say he can spend 8 turns on Best just as easily as he can spend 8 turns on Worst. He could be at Best the whole time while Edward could be on Worst most of the time. Biorythm only comes into play like that when one unit isn't affected by the change.

Anyway, giving Zihark A Jill will certainly improve his prospects as far as concrete durability go, but considering Edward with A Nolan has +23 and can strap on Caladbolg and has more luck than Zihark, it seems to me like Edward will actually end up winning avo in part 4 as well, and once we want to use something that isn't Caladbolg Edward should have a sizeable luck lead so even with being down by 7 he'll still manage to pull off similar avo. It takes until tier 3 to see Edward having more defence, but he's still somewhat close and has a much larger hp growth. Also, he'll have better hit with a silver blade, as well. Except a Silver blade only has 1 more mt than Caladbolg, and Edward soon gets more strength than Zihark and Edward will not miss with that thing. And will let him have an avo lead. Really, Edward will beat Zihark from 3-12 on, and be pretty close in 3-6 itself.

Edward likely wins part 4, that's easy. But his problem is the rest of the DB's problem, and it's called "underleveled for at least a full map." Winning doesn't mean a lot when you're still pretty meh and then only better at the easy parts of the game.

On a completely unrelated note, let's look at the best offensive unit the DB has in 3-6 (not including a beastfoe user or BK, but including Sothe and the beastkiller, since he doesn't generally OHKO and has a miss chance). Leo.

Volug?

Comparing Tibarn to Ranulf is almost completely the same as comparing him to Naesala. Both pwn him when they exist together, end of story.

If that doesn't convince you, I should at least think to move Tibarn below Elincia for the reasons mentioned (aka: he isn't crushing her as much as one woudl expect).

What I meant was that I don't know if Ranulf should go down or Naesala up, or meet in the middle. Is Naesala better than everyone currently in between?

[grandjackal]

I would respond to this, but I'm a bit too braindead at the moment from mind-numbing sickness. I just wanna clear one thing up.

There's no one with 21 except Wystan and he hits Res. And if he's gotten screwed, which is the only way the Shield "helps" him here, I'd question the viability of continuing to use him, especially since he'll just be 2HKOd more often as a result of having even less Def. And level 10 is pretty high anyway since we usually assume ~level 7 in 1-4.

I have to ask wtf is this? Only level 7? Are you giving Leo and Michaiah kills, then shoveling them into Nolan's, then having Sothe basically killface most of chapter 1-3?

First off, Michaiah has no real reason to get kills early on. Chipping and sacrificing gets her enough. Leo doesn't deserve kills because he generally sucks hardcore once we get actual units on the team all the way until basically part 3, where you'd need to dump BEXP on him then seal him. As hax as he is part 3, he's by no means clutch. Hell, even at base he can operate the ballistae anyways to OHKO hawks. On top of that, Michaiah can just slap on Paragon or Wrath if you got issues with her offense/level (and lol at her having offense problems). You might as well let Eddie go nuts.

Nolan is fair game, and you Sothe doesn't really do much 1-3 as he's too busy nabbing the chests. Either way, I don't see why you have him at only 3 levels.

"B-but that's favoritism!"

What about this list ISN'T favoritism? Only thing we get out of Leo and Michaiah gaining exp is at best 1 extra damage. Eddie on the other hand can actually in some way perform combat. Why are we playing the equal opportunity card NOW of all times?

Also, Ranulf down. Cat gauge, the end.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Florete]

First off, Michaiah has no real reason to get kills early on.

She also starts at level 1, meaning she wants 1900 experience to hit level 20 by 1-E. That's ~158 experience per map, but she wants a bit more because she'd like to be as close as possible by the start of 1-9. She also kills most bosses, and Edward likely only kills the 1-P boss, if he even gets that.

Leo doesn't deserve kills because he generally sucks hardcore once we get actual units on the team all the way until basically part 3, where you'd need to dump BEXP on him then seal him.

He will get kills in early maps, though. We have limited units. It's just going to happen. And if we want his h4x part 3, he needs a lot as well.

Nolan is fair game, and you Sothe doesn't really do much 1-3 as he's too busy nabbing the chests. Either way, I don't see why you have him at only 3 levels.

Sothe only spends 2 turns getting chests, and probably kills ~5 enemies on the way as well. And he needs to climb back up to get the Energy Drop anyway.

Bad in combat means Edward sees less of it. Meaning he gets less experience. Level 7, maybe 8, is pretty average in 1-4 given his combat if we assume use. Level 10 by 1-5 isn't too high, but it's still somewhat of a stretch. And I think my original post that Narga responded to assumed level 10 Edward anyway, since I mentioned 4 enemies that the Draco helps with, and Narga got 4 (5, but one was Wystan) as well.

[grandjackal]

She also starts at level 1, meaning she wants 1900 experience to hit level 20 by 1-E. That's ~158 experience per map, but she wants a bit more because she'd like to be as close as possible by the start of 1-9. She also kills most bosses, and Edward likely only kills the 1-P boss, if he even gets that.

...Why? It's not like leveling her changes much about her anyways. Besides, Paragon fitting on her and a chapter all to herself, chip damage, thani-bombing, sacrificing, gaining EXP is by no means a problem to her. I will grant she gets the 1-2 and 1-3 boss kills simply because Thani is super effective on them while pretty much nothing else at all is. Even with 1-3 though, it's dangerous as the dude can counter.

He will get kills in early maps, though. We have limited units. It's just going to happen. And if we want his h4x part 3, he needs a lot as well.

Sweet, I dump exp into Leo and HOPE he gets strength, because 1 more damage means a LOT! : D. You claim Eddie's part 1 is bad, Leo's is absolute garbage. Again, I see no reason he shouldn't just chip. No one said we HAD to use Lughasahd, or him as a wall. At base, Leo can use the ballistae to down hawks. What of 3-6 and 12? Well 3-6 is where you get the brave bow actually! I think he's allowed to use that, considering...No one else is around. With chip, I see no reason he couldnt get to level 10 for a sealing at least. He could easily have a support going for at least +2 offense, he'd have plenty of room for beastfoe (9x3=27. 11+2=13. 27+13=40 ATK. He's still doing 40 damage to 20 def tigers, and still blicking cats). IF you're so bent on using him, do realize you don't even need to give him much to make him useful part 3. Gotta love that brave bow. On top of this, Leo no matter what is trash part 4, so the exp ultimately just goes to waste. This maximizes his use, while minimizing his exp intake.

So no, he doesn't need much at all.

Sothe only spends 2 turns getting chests, and probably kills ~5 enemies on the way as well. And he needs to climb back up to get the Energy Drop anyway.

Gee, why not have him just solo the map first? Do note we get chest keys here, and we can easily be to the boss while he's searching for treasure. Also, how the fuck did Sothe kill 5 enemies just going down to the chests? You mean the 3 soldiers? I ca easily have Nolan there to distract a couple of them, and he took the long way around. How slow are you taking this map? Sothe at best is taking 3 (one soldier, the two chest room bastards)

Don't just imply he gets the boss kill no less, if THAT'S what you're suggesting. Michaiah can Thani bomb him quite easily.

Bad in combat means Edward sees less of it. Meaning he gets less experience. Level 7, maybe 8, is pretty average in 1-4 given his combat if we assume use. Level 10 by 1-5 isn't too high, but it's still somewhat of a stretch. And I think my original post that Narga responded to assumed level 10 Edward anyway, since I mentioned 4 enemies that the Draco helps with, and Narga got 4 (5, but one was Wystan) as well.

Yet you're implying giving exp to A. A girl who has no problem getting exp at all part 1 due to basically the fact she can do anything including equip paragon for her own goddamn chapter, B. Giving kills to an archer who does not improve on his job at all for part 1 and needs minimum exp to be usefu in part 3 regardless, and C. Apparently letting Sothe solo 1-3 because...You felt like it?

Edited August 31, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Florete]

...Why? It's not like leveling her changes much about her anyways. Besides, Paragon fitting on her and a chapter all to herself, chip damage, thani-bombing, sacrificing, gaining EXP is by no means a problem to her. I will grant she gets the 1-2 and 1-3 boss kills simply because Thani is super effective on them while pretty much nothing else at all is. Even with 1-3 though, it's dangerous as the dude can counter.

Level 5 Micaiah can OHKO the 1-3 boss. So yeah, she does want experience. She also wants it for the possibility to survive at least one round against later enemies.

Sweet, I dump exp into Leo and HOPE he gets strength, because 1 more damage means a LOT! : D.

Sweet, I dump exp into Eddie and HOPE he gets strength, because 1 more damage means a LOT! : D.

Everyone only gets +1's on level ups.

On top of this, Leo no matter what is trash part 3. This maximizes his use, while minimizing his exp intake.

Being one of your best offensive units is trash?

Gee, why not have him just solo the map first? Do note we get chest keys here, and we can easily be to the boss while he's searching for treasure. Also, how the fuck did Sothe kill 5 enemies just going down to the chests? You mean the 3 soldiers? I ca easily have Nolan there to distract a couple of them, and he took the long way around. How slow are you taking this map? Sothe at best is taking 3 (one soldier, the two chest room bastards)

The only Chest Key is from the Myrmidon in the bottom left corner, which Sothe will kill while looting. And there are 3 Soldiers when Sothe appears on turn 3 or something, so the rest of your team won't be there yet.

Don't just imply he gets the boss kill no less, if THAT'S what you're suggesting. Michaiah can Thani bomb him quite easily.

I wasn't implying he kills the boss, I was implying he's going to end up there to help with the other enemies anyway.

Yet you're implying giving exp to A. A girl who has no problem getting exp at all part 1 due to basically the fact she can do anything including equip paragon for her own goddamn chapter, B. Giving kills to an archer who does not improve on his job at all for part 1 and needs minimum exp to be usefu in part 3 regardless, and C. Apparently letting Sothe solo 1-3 because...You felt like it?

Micaiah doesn't get Paragon in 1-9 because that means no one got it in 1-8. And she doesn't fight a lot anyway due to being OHKOd by like everything unless she's at a high enough level to not need Paragon anyway.

[grandjackal]

Level 5 Micaiah can OHKO the 1-3 boss. So yeah, she does want experience. She also wants it for the possibility to survive at least one round against later enemies.

Sacrifice, chip, Thani bombing a boss and an A with Sothe giving +2 offense. I fail to see the problem.

Sweet, I dump exp into Eddie and HOPE he gets strength, because 1 more damage means a LOT! : D.

Everyone only gets +1's on level ups.

Eddie will actually double eventually, so every +1 actually becomes a +2. Makes him more durable so he's able to attack more because unlike the other two he's an actual direct combat unit. Gives him more hit, so with his doubling he can actually become a better ranged unit than people who have actual range weapons. I would rather put exp into Eddie, because eventually I'll get twice or even 4 times out of Eddie what I would from Leo part 1. Leo could be more durable, but he shouldn't get attacked anyways. He could get more hit, but he's mad at growing hit. Again, not a problem.

Please don't act like Eddie's just another archer, when he's clearly capable of more.

Being one of your best offensive units is trash?

I meant part 4. Pardon the typo, but it seems you get my point.

The only Chest Key is from the Myrmidon in the bottom left corner, which Sothe will kill while looting. And there are 3 Soldiers when Sothe appears on turn 3 or something, so the rest of your team won't be there yet.

Not sure how long it takes you to do that chapter, unless on his arrival turn you have Sothe stand there like a goon. Him standing there is time not getting to those chests. I'm also rather capable of getting people up there by then. They might not pull all 3 off, but they can pull one off. You could say Sothe should get it because apparently the killface needs 1 experience, but he's going after the chest anyways.

I wasn't implying he kills the boss, I was implying he's going to end up there to help with the other enemies anyway.

Trading convoys with the keys.

Micaiah doesn't get Paragon in 1-9 because that means no one got it in 1-8. And she doesn't fight a lot anyway due to being OHKOd by like everything unless she's at a high enough level to not need Paragon anyway.

Baawww, someone doesn't get Paragon for the minimal enemies they'll meet in 1-8. It's divided in sections. Middle dudes basically go up and around to the right. They're exposed to like 9 guys of best, of which we got one guy paragon'ing 3 kills. These are the only reasonable people (Michaiah included) getting it. Volug getting it is an absolute waste due to Wildheart screwing him over along with the fact he's basically a level 20/10 unit. LEA aren't getting it, because lulz. Michaiah's in 1-8 anyways, and apparently she's so desperately in need of exp to basically...remain the exact same thing throughout the game.

[Florete]

Sacrifice, chip, Thani bombing a boss and an A with Sothe giving +2 offense. I fail to see the problem.

That was with Sothe's +2. Oh, but the boss might be in a Thicket, so she might need 1 more. Chip damage, Sacrifice and a boss won't do all that for her.

It's funny, I don't remember needing her that high for this kill...

Eddie will actually double eventually, so every +1 actually becomes a +2.

He doesn't double reliably until, like, 3-12, and even then he might be borderline. He doubles Tigers as well, but misses Cats. And this in no way entitles him to more kills anyway. Only performance gets units more kills, and Edward's durability sucks too much to be exposed to many enemies.

Makes him more durable so he's able to attack more because unlike the other two he's an actual direct combat unit.

What makes him more durable? 1 range? If anything that makes him less durable because he takes player phase counters.

Gives him more hit, so with his doubling he can actually become a better ranged unit than people who have actual range weapons.

Rofl at that. Wind Edge has 60 Hit and can't be forged, and every bow except Steel and Silver Longbows beat that. Leonardo and Edward start with the same base 30 Hit, but Leonardo has 215% accuracy growth while Edward has 180%. Coins aside, Leo's weapon can have as much as 45 more Hit than Edward's and will also be stronger, combined with Leo actually having 1 more Str at base than Edward. Edward's range is not good, and his affinity won't fix that.

Oh, and he won't double much either. Wind Edge weighs 10, and he needs to be level 9 to reach that. If he's got that at 1-5, his 15 AS only doubles Mages. He needs 16+ by 1-6-1, and he needs to be level 11 for that, and that's mostly lower end enemies.

Please don't act like Eddie's just another archer, when he's clearly capable of more.

Maybe capable of dying more.

Unless you're just trying to hype his part 4, which isn't good enough considering the suck it took to get there.

Trading convoys with the keys.

Huh? Sothe is going to be the only one down there.

Baawww, someone doesn't get Paragon for the minimal enemies they'll meet in 1-8. It's divided in sections. Middle dudes basically go up and around to the right. They're exposed to like 9 guys of best, of which we got one guy paragon'ing 3 kills. These are the only reasonable people (Michaiah included) getting it. Volug getting it is an absolute waste due to Wildheart screwing him over along with the fact he's basically a level 20/10 unit. LEA aren't getting it, because lulz. Michaiah's in 1-8 anyways, and apparently she's so desperately in need of exp to basically...remain the exact same thing throughout the game.

And she doesn't fight a lot anyway due to being OHKOd by like everything unless she's at a high enough level to not need Paragon anyway.

Giving Paragon to Zihark/Volug/Sothe in 1-8 > giving it Micaiah in 1-9. Besides, she'd prefer Resolve, to give her actual chances of surviving.

[Jaybee]

Sothe at best is taking 3 (one soldier, the two chest room bastards)

The soldier in there can only be taken out by Micky/Leo/Nolan since he blocks the entrance with a Javelin.

Just nitpicking at things.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Joshybear25

[Narga_Rocks]

I guess I missed that, but any Tiger + Cat combo will still kill him, and as you said, it's unlikely to see two Cats in a turn, but depending on how things happen, Tiger + Cat could be reasonable because they often come in pairs like that, especially at the top.

Well, he still doesn't have to worry about facing more than 1 at a time ever, so that's not an issue. The point is that when all is dead nearby except a cat in the north and it attacked Edward on enemy phase, at least Edward can attack it now.

There's no one with 21 except Wystan and he hits Res. And if he's gotten screwed, which is the only way the Shield "helps" him here, I'd question the viability of continuing to use him, especially since he'll just be 2HKOd more often as a result of having even less Def. And level 10 is pretty high anyway since we usually assume ~level 7 in 1-4.

Level 9 was the one where he has 6.75 def, so it's perfectly reasonable for him to hit 7 def at level 10 rather than level 9. If he's level 9 and only has 6 defence, I don't think we need to hit the panic button yet. Level 9 with 23hp and 6 def is enough that with his support and a draco all those 20 mt enemies still don't 2HKO him. And level 9 is rather reasonable after the laguz chapter. And I'm still not certain why Edward only gets 3 levels in 4 chapters. Everyone is level 4 or more except 2 bandits, so he's getting 20 exp per kill and there are 8 enemies and only Micaiah and Leo for a fair bit. Also, when Leo catches up then we can have Ed use the draco and Micaiah sacrifice away whatever damage Ed took, then he's good for the following enemy phase.

As for 1-5, a level 11 Edward has 24.95 hp and 7.45 def so he's probably good for the 20 mt enemies without a draco as long as his support is active, but since he's not likely to have 25 hp and 7+1 def since he's not likely to be level 11, I don't see the issue. He doesn't need to be screwed in order for the shield to help him.

Except only 2 of those are reinforcements, one being an Archer (He doesn't get hit), and he might easily not see level 7 here since we only assume level 7 by 1-4 anyway.

"Let's say level 6 Edward. 20.7 hp and 5.7 def. He still has a shot at 21 and 6. 41.7% actually. Even if not, he's got a shot at either 21hp and 5def or 20 hp and 6 def. The first means the critical number is 16 and becomes 18. This only "helps" with one enemy, but considering enemies aren't on their own, consider all those 18 mt enemies now need a >= 17 mt enemies to do the job, so 5 enemies can't finish him off. With 20 hp and 6 def, the critical number is still 16 or 18, but now the 17 mt enemy can't combine with an 18 mt enemies to finish it off."

With 21 hp and 6 def, all those 18 mt enemies can't KO him, but even if he only gets one of them, at least those 18 mt enemies that 2HKO him can't combine with some of the weaker enemies. It's 1-2, so I don't know where everything is, but it's fully possible that two enemies could be close together that won't 2HKO him that would otherwise.

That Myrmidon is in the bottom left corner with the Chests. Sothe is fighting that guy when he goes down there to unlock the chests, not Edward.

That myrm is also 3HKOd by Edward. 2 enemy phases and a player phase. Once the guy blocking the ledge is dead, the myrm is the only thing down there. Sothe doesn't have to go there. Ed can't be killed by him now. Well, if Ed pulled 6 def, that is. If Ed pulled 21 hp and 5 def then the myrm can still 3HKO Ed even with a shield. Still, Ed's got a 57.75% chance of getting that 6 defence. Why send Sothe down there if we don't have to? There's two chests, Ed can get them both with the key. Sothe can do other things. I know this means Ed faces fewer enemies, but really, 3 levels in 4 maps? He can afford to miss out on a little action and still get that. If we gave Ed the draco and he only got 5 + 2 def, well it still helps on other enemies.

What? By the time Leonardo shows up Edward should be far ahead. He won't be using the Shield until the end of this map if we want to clear it in a reasonable amount of time, so he'll only get it for the boss.

Except the boss is where it counts the most. There are 8 enemies so he could very well use it when there are still 3 left, though.

Being able to take a few more combinations of enemies on 1-2 is not a whole lot of help. Going from 2HKOd -> 2HKOd is worthless.

He still does stuff with it. 1-P a little, 1-2 some. In 1-5 it helps, and I haven't looked later but I'm sure it's helping there too. I really don't know how we are supposed to look at these things in part 1, though. Personally I'd love to give Jill the robe and the drop and the shield. Makes her pretty cool. I don't think we should just ignore it's existence, though. I see no real reason to assume Zihark has it in 3-6. Nor Edward. We might as well do the comparisons with the shield and without.

It's like I said before. If he's gotten screwed enough to not be able to take it, I question the viability of continuing to use him since this just means he'll be 2HKOd by even lower numbers than I already showed.

Even if he's supposed to have 21 hp and 6 def, missing out on the hp is a small issue since his growth might catch up. The whole thing about averages is that it's an over time thing. He misses out on 2 points of hp in 13 levels, maybe they are both at the beginning. Also, if he misses the def, he could get it next time. It just takes 1 missed point to be stuck with Aran as the third wall and have to face the map with a guy that can get blicked.

I hardly find Vulneraries to be an issue, especially since they're buyable in the next base.

Well, let's see, there is a vulnerary in 1-1, and Ed and Nolan start with 1 each. That's 3 vulneraries for 7 units. Well, Laura doesn't need one. Sothe could steal 3 of them in 1-2, but it seems like a difficult task if he's stuck taking out the myrm and opening those chests and trying to get Laura to arrive in 10 turns. Anyway, having Ed able to use a herb rather than having to trade around a vulnerary seems like a plus. And you can't buy them until 1-6, by the way. That doesn't matter much, though.

Wait, why is 1-7 only 10 turns? BEXP? I think I've made the point before that max BEXP is not always worth it, especially in part 1 where the amount is small anyway and we're trying to use tier 1 units effectively. If we really want to always get max BEXP, we'd have to overuse our Laguz and tier 2 units, and that would hurt our part 3 rather significantly. I have to guess since I can't seem to find my guide on this game, but 15 turns should be sufficient for half BEXP, and then our tier 1 units get more CEXP and building B ZiharkxJill shouldn't be too difficult.

Considering I could make my DB members tier 2 a lot faster if I didn't use Tauroneo or Tormod or Vika or Muarim or Nailah or Volug (well, I'd have to get him to S strike still) or BK, I don't see why we use them at all then. I can still generally beat the chapters without them. Sure, it could take a few extra turns, but the game doesn't even care about 1-6-1 and I have 15 turns to beat 1-6-2 and still get max. Then for 1-7 I could go through it the long way quite easily. Also, those 4 enemies in the northwest don't even move until you are in range of the armor, but if you swing east around the west rooms and go up from there, you can draw the armor and the eastern fighter so only two come at us and Nolan survives, then kill them and move in on the other 2. This map is rather easy, actually, to beat in 15 turns without using Muarim/Tormod/Vika at all. I can also clear it in 10 and get all the bexp including the escaped soldiers, except I need Tormod to kill a sage and Muarim and Vika to take out another sage and a soldier. Well, maybe one or two others. Point is, I can still clear out the rest of the map without them, and they only take 3 or 4 enemies out and I get all the bexp anyway. I see no reason to waste turns simply to build supports. Well, there are the reinforcements, I suppose, except then there is more things for Edward to kill in 1-2 and 1-3 since turncounts shouldn't matter then, either. At this point, Ed at level 8 or 9 seems doable for 1-4. Sothe never is allowed to kill anything, and maybe it even requires picking up Laura or something but then he can weaken basically everything and Micaiah and Leo and Edward can get extra kills. In 1-8, we can have Nailah pick up a kid and say screw the rest, and try to get as many kills for the tier 1s as possible. In 1-E, we don't even need to use Nailah aside from the thieves, and the BK helps to get there. After that, we can just go at the rest of the map with our tier 1s and boost them.

Frankly, I'm seeing 20/1 Edward for 3-6 rather easily.

Also, since Zihark gets a piddling amount of exp in 1-6 and 1-7, I don't need him fighting either since I could instead get more kills for my tier 1s, and now his utility goes down because speeding up a chapter gets outweighed by how he weakens my other units.

And you can beat 3-6 with just deploying Micaiah and Sothe. Just saying. 3-12 is simple enough too, just talk to Int. Then in 3-13 you need like 2 guys that can take a hit. Well, a tiger + hawk would be useful, though, except you can have Tauroneo for that.

X

SXT

This is the position in front of the bottom ledge in the middle. S gets attacked by something on the west, it only has one facing. T (Taur) can be attacked by something on the east and a hawk from above if it has the move. The X's can be attacked by the hawk only. You'll be fine.

It doesn't hurt our part 3 in the slightest, considering we get full bexp regardless and speed didn't matter in part 1. 3-13 can't be sped up without KOing Ike, and that's difficult enough with fully trained units on HM. 3-6 won't even take more than 2 or 3 turns longer with BK destroying everything. Then simply don't use the old DB members anymore. It's not as if they are needed anyway.

Well, If Micaiah broke it with Sothe, she can get hers rather easily. If we're still assuming EdwardxNolan, I'd think they could already be at A by now, so they don;'t need it, and I'd also assume we aren't using anyone else after Zihark and Jill because that would spread our experience too thin and we'd run out of Master Seals (4 for Edward, Nolan, Laura, and Jill).

I think Micaiah is force deployed between Sothe and Volug, and Sothe is on the right side. So she'd have to build with either Volug or Sothe if we want to build Jill and Zihark. At the least, it means no free points for Micaiah + someone else. I admit that Nolan and Edward don't need much to get A. They likely got a B for 1-6. If we are snailing chapters now, then they could have a B in 1-5, technically. Anyway, if we snail 1-6, they'll have an A for 1-7, otherwise it's 1-8. Still, it takes so little over two chapters that it's a non-issue. Stupid Volug can't start next to anyone that isn't Micaiah, so that doesn't help me.

Same point as before, only a few more turns for extra flexibility and since this chapter is like one of the most annoying I really question if we care about max BEXP.

But shouldn't we at least acknowledge that if we aren't trying to super speed Zihark's support in order to make him decent in part 3 then we can do things more efficiently?

Um, okay. Same for Edward, only worse.

Well, I don't really remember what I was trying to say about all that with getting countered. I think, though, the idea was that Zihark's durability isn't that great without supports, even in part 1 (though Ed is worse) and if you support him with Jill then he's going supportless into 1-8 rather than having an extra 1 def and 10 avo with Aran or 15 avo with Nolan or Volug. So I'm saying taking Jill hurts him a bit. Or I think that's what I meant. Don't remember.

Wait, are you sure? I don't have the map in front of me, but I remember being able to park some of my units in thickets while still maintaining a decent wall, at least considering how the swamp hinders Laguz.

Vykan's speedrun is too dark for me, and I can't really see anything for chapter data. Hidden items doesn't show thickets. Urg. I'm too far from 3-6. I know I can make a wall, but I think it uses more units. You can block with 3 without using thickets, but I don't think you can accomplish the same feat while using thickets. Well, blocking with 3 eventually has overflow in the east, but thanks to torches and having more than three units you can easily use someone with offence and low durability since the overflow will basically only ever be one enemy unit.

I fail to see the humor.

Well, consider doing 1-7 in 10 turns while keeping Jill and Zihark adjacent the entire time. It's really hard. But it's also funny. If we take 15 turns, that's still 60% of the time. It's not funny hard anymore, but it's still not simple.

Uh, no, I didn't. I rounded down. 13 at base, +2 with A Jill, +2 with Draco, +1 with Thicket. 13 + 2 + 2 + 1 = 18. Also, 4 chapters, but 5 maps. If he's not level 5 yet, he probably will be after like 1 enemy. Don't forget possible Paragon and boss kills in part 1.

Sorry, don't know what I was thinking. Probably already dropped him to B in my head or something. Makes getting the extra def more reasonable since level 6 does it frequently and level 7 most of the rest of the time. Since neither of us seems to be able to see a good map of 3-6 I guess I can't really say too much about what sticking him on a thicket means.

If I am right about needing 5 or more walls now, that's a lot of self healing going on and it seems much more difficult to prevent injured laguz from existing on enemy phase. With only 3 walls, Micaiah can take one of them, Laura another, and the third can self heal while someone fires over it's head. Or something. It might add one or two turns to the chapter, but it makes it so incredibly easy. If speed doesn't matter in part 1, I fail to see why it should now.

I don't really know, but yeah, it's only 100.

Oh well, we both make mistakes.

You can't really count this against Zihark. I could say he can spend 8 turns on Best just as easily as he can spend 8 turns on Worst. He could be at Best the whole time while Edward could be on Worst most of the time. Biorythm only comes into play like that when one unit isn't affected by the change.

Trouble is that putting him on best for many turns puts him on worst for many turns in 3-12 or 3-13. He can't be on best for all of them. It sucks for Ed that he's going to be on worst for some time every chapter, but at least he will have spurts of best on every chapter. Zihark can easily spend an entire chapter on worst.

Edward likely wins part 4, that's easy. But his problem is the rest of the DB's problem, and it's called "underleveled for at least a full map." Winning doesn't mean a lot when you're still pretty meh and then only better at the easy parts of the game.

Assuming crowning if necessary in 4-3/4/5 for the DB members, and paragon in one chapter in part 3 since we aren't raising very many of them, level 12 Ed and level 15 Zihark seem reasonable to me. Ed actually pulls off 3HKOs that Zihark doesn't while wielding a steel sword forge. With it, he can get ~70% proc rates compared to Zihark's ~50%. His durability isn't terrible anymore thanks to stars, etc. He's actually better than many of the GMs that suddenly find themselves unable to double and aren't coming close to a 70% proc rate. And that's Ed with just 20/12. Even 17/12 should be able to 3HKO. So I'd say he could be more than meh.

On a completely unrelated note, let's look at the best offensive unit the DB has in 3-6 (not including a beastfoe user or BK, but including Sothe and the beastkiller, since he doesn't generally OHKO and has a miss chance). Leo.

Volug?

Arguably not. 11 x 2 + 14 = 36 mt. lv 17 cats are not ORKOd. The rest are, unless they find their way to a thicket and only level 15 and 14 cats are ORKOd.

He only does 32 damage or 36 damage to Tigers, though. Leo kills them most of the time.

As for wrath, well 14 hp or less for wrath-ing. Also, with just 24 skill he's got a 62 crit against 6 or 7 cev tigers, so a 55% or 56% crit rate. With doubling, he's less than Leo. 79.75% or 80.64%. Leo is about twice as likely to KO them.

Also, with 14 hp Volug is asking to die on enemy phase. Sure, a cat won't KO him, but a tiger will. Also, maintaining wrath while constantly getting healed and hoping a tiger attacks and knocks you into wrath range is bad, and giving a guy that counters wrath is also bad.

So no wrath on Volug, or if he has it it's dangerous and isn't even used all that frequently.

So Leo has a >65% chance of KOing cats, and a 90% chance of KOing tigers. Volug is leaving tigers with 14 to 20 hp, and Leo leaves cats with 20 to 26 hp. Considering tigers have more def and Zihark or Ed with a brave can KO almost all of Leo's cats but have trouble with a fair number of Volug's tigers, and that Leo wasn't getting countered and never grasses and will be firing over unit's heads allowing them to attack while holding the line, I'd say Leo could arguably be better at offence than Volug.

What I meant was that I don't know if Ranulf should go down or Naesala up, or meet in the middle. Is Naesala better than everyone currently in between?

Well, Ranulf below Oscar, next we discuss Naesala vs. the utility units and Nephenee. That's not going to be fun. Just don't forget that Micaiah is better than Naesala in 4-E-3 as far as durability is concerened, and superior (actual) 2 range offence for enemy phase. Really, she beats him simply standing in the way of reds and holding Nosferatu. But that's true against Tibarn, as well.

I have to ask wtf is this? Only level 7? Are you giving Leo and Michaiah kills, then shoveling them into Nolan's, then having Sothe basically killface most of chapter 1-3?

First off, Michaiah has no real reason to get kills early on. Chipping and sacrificing gets her enough. Leo doesn't deserve kills because he generally sucks hardcore once we get actual units on the team all the way until basically part 3, where you'd need to dump BEXP on him then seal him. As hax as he is part 3, he's by no means clutch. Hell, even at base he can operate the ballistae anyways to OHKO hawks. On top of that, Michaiah can just slap on Paragon or Wrath if you got issues with her offense/level (and lol at her having offense problems). You might as well let Eddie go nuts.

Nolan is fair game, and you Sothe doesn't really do much 1-3 as he's too busy nabbing the chests. Either way, I don't see why you have him at only 3 levels.

"B-but that's favoritism!"

What about this list ISN'T favoritism? Only thing we get out of Leo and Michaiah gaining exp is at best 1 extra damage. Eddie on the other hand can actually in some way perform combat. Why are we playing the equal opportunity card NOW of all times?

Considering she needs to be kept up to date with levels in order to still OHKO armors and stuff, I don't see why we wouldn't. When I play normally, I funnel the kills in 1-P her way since Ed is pointless to raise since Zihark exists. It's like Rolf and Shinon. Offensively Rolf ends up better, but then I'd be without Shinon's use in part 3. And Leo and Micaiah are going to get kills in chapters like 1-1 simply because Ed alone isn't enough to clean up after Nolan's enemy phase.

...Why? It's not like leveling her changes much about her anyways. Besides, Paragon fitting on her and a chapter all to herself, chip damage, thani-bombing, sacrificing, gaining EXP is by no means a problem to her. I will grant she gets the 1-2 and 1-3 boss kills simply because Thani is super effective on them while pretty much nothing else at all is. Even with 1-3 though, it's dangerous as the dude can counter.

A Sothe means a level 5 Micaiah has 10 + 24 + 2 = 36 mt and 9.6x2 + 13.2 + 100 + 8 = 140.4 hit. Boss has 30 avo. Considering we are likely encountering him around turn 6 or 7, she is not missing against him even on worst, since he's at neutral now. I suppose we could face him earlier, and if she's on worst at this time then she could miss. But considering we can't know what her bio will be, I don't think it's dangerous. And she OHKOs. Sothe needs to use a turn stealing discipline anyway. Might as well use Micaiah to KO so that your other units can do something else.

Sweet, I dump exp into Leo and HOPE he gets strength, because 1 more damage means a LOT! : D. You claim Eddie's part 1 is bad, Leo's is absolute garbage. Again, I see no reason he shouldn't just chip. No one said we HAD to use Lughasahd, or him as a wall. At base, Leo can use the ballistae to down hawks. What of 3-6 and 12? Well 3-6 is where you get the brave bow actually! I think he's allowed to use that, considering...No one else is around. With chip, I see no reason he couldnt get to level 10 for a sealing at least. He could easily have a support going for at least +2 offense, he'd have plenty of room for beastfoe (9x3=27. 11+2=13. 27+13=40 ATK. He's still doing 40 damage to 20 def tigers, and still blicking cats). IF you're so bent on using him, do realize you don't even need to give him much to make him useful part 3. Gotta love that brave bow. On top of this, Leo no matter what is trash part 4, so the exp ultimately just goes to waste. This maximizes his use, while minimizing his exp intake.

So no, he doesn't need much at all.

The great part about Leo's part 3 is he uses something that nobody else uses particularly effectively. Even Micaiah doesn't do amazing with wrath, not like Leo, and she's healing probably half the time or more. This frees up beastfoe for Jill to have fun with hand axes, or Nolan if we have someone trade out the bowgun and replace it with a bronze axe. You would then have two units that kill just about anything in this chapter. Getting him to level 19 though, there's the problem. Still, I showed he's pretty good even at level 15, though that might be difficult to reach as well. Anyway, at level 15 he does enough damage to a tiger 90% of the time that it's probably dying anyway if it attacked a unit on enemy phase and got countered.

Gee, why not have him just solo the map first? Do note we get chest keys here, and we can easily be to the boss while he's searching for treasure. Also, how the fuck did Sothe kill 5 enemies just going down to the chests? You mean the 3 soldiers? I ca easily have Nolan there to distract a couple of them, and he took the long way around. How slow are you taking this map? Sothe at best is taking 3 (one soldier, the two chest room bastards)

Don't just imply he gets the boss kill no less, if THAT'S what you're suggesting. Michaiah can Thani bomb him quite easily.

There's actually an interesting thing that happens on HM. Sothe doesn't even ORKO some things in his first chapter without Kard. 22 mt KOs all but the boss and the level 9 soldier. 20mt however doesn't get the soldiers nor does it get the level 8 fighter. If we snail 1-7 to get B Jill x Zihark for 1-E I see no reason why we can't simply let Sothe hold onto his bronze dagger and not kill stuff. Then Edward or Nolan or Micaiah can nab the points. Since there are times Sothe will leave 2 enemies alive, well that just makes it more likely for Ed to get some of them.

Bad in combat means Edward sees less of it. Meaning he gets less experience. Level 7, maybe 8, is pretty average in 1-4 given his combat if we assume use. Level 10 by 1-5 isn't too high, but it's still somewhat of a stretch. And I think my original post that Narga responded to assumed level 10 Edward anyway, since I mentioned 4 enemies that the Draco helps with, and Narga got 4 (5, but one was Wystan) as well.

Yet you're implying giving exp to A. A girl who has no problem getting exp at all part 1 due to basically the fact she can do anything including equip paragon for her own goddamn chapter, B. Giving kills to an archer who does not improve on his job at all for part 1 and needs minimum exp to be usefu in part 3 regardless, and C. Apparently letting Sothe solo 1-3 because...You felt like it?

Actually, I got 5 by including a reinforcement I probably shouldn't have. A 20mt javelin user appears in the northeast after turn 4.

Micaiah doesn't get Paragon in 1-9 because that means no one got it in 1-8. And she doesn't fight a lot anyway due to being OHKOd by like everything unless she's at a high enough level to not need Paragon anyway.

Well, she got to use it. She can still get some kills in 1-8 since not everyone ORKOs, and moving towards the boss if we don't care about turncounts then there is no reason to use Sothe with the iron knife to do it and she becomes a good bait for the boss since 18 crit with thunder can OHKO a lot of units, and 25 mt doesn't do all that much to her and she doesn't fear his crits since she's had 18 luck ever since level 11. If she got massively luck screwed, well, she still could stand next to Sothe for the +10 and even with no +lck levels can't be critted and a pure water could keep her alive at base. If she's only level 15 or so like some people seem to do to her, then paragon isn't such a bad idea for her here.

Eddie will actually double eventually, so every +1 actually becomes a +2. Makes him more durable so he's able to attack more because unlike the other two he's an actual direct combat unit. Gives him more hit, so with his doubling he can actually become a better ranged unit than people who have actual range weapons. I would rather put exp into Eddie, because eventually I'll get twice or even 4 times out of Eddie what I would from Leo part 1. Leo could be more durable, but he shouldn't get attacked anyways. He could get more hit, but he's mad at growing hit. Again, not a problem.

Please don't act like Eddie's just another archer, when he's clearly capable of more.

Well, if Ed doesn't have to be played, to be honest I'd rather drop him after 1-6 because Zihark shows up and so I'd limit his exp in earlier chapters, too. Now that we are forced to use him, though, I really don't see the issue with putting exp into him, either, especially since we no longer seem to care about efficiency in part 1.

I meant part 4. Pardon the typo, but it seems you get my point.

Considering Rolf's offence in part 4 is pretty good (really good when he doubles), and you consider Leo > Rolf, and you assert Leo is trash-like in part 1, wouldn't Leo have to have pretty good offence in part 4? I know he doesn't, btw, I'm just trying to say that raising Leo in part 1 is a pain, raising Rolf in part 3 is less of a pain, Leo gets part 3 to be good, Rolf gets part 4. Leo isn't that great in part 4 so experience dropped on him in part 3 kinda goes to waste. Rolf on the other hand is never a waste of exp since he uses it all the way to the end.

On the other hand, near base Leo is far more useful at times than near base Rolf, so to be purely efficient Leo would possibly win that comparison. Except a mostly untrained Leo w/ beastfoe is preventing the possibility of a trained Leo w/ wrath and another unit w/ beastfoe in part 3. Epic offence x 2 is better than epic offence.

Baawww, someone doesn't get Paragon for the minimal enemies they'll meet in 1-8. It's divided in sections. Middle dudes basically go up and around to the right. They're exposed to like 9 guys of best, of which we got one guy paragon'ing 3 kills. These are the only reasonable people (Michaiah included) getting it. Volug getting it is an absolute waste due to Wildheart screwing him over along with the fact he's basically a level 20/10 unit. LEA aren't getting it, because lulz. Michaiah's in 1-8 anyways, and apparently she's so desperately in need of exp to basically...remain the exact same thing throughout the game.

Well, Zihark or Sothe could use it. And before you talk about Sothe already being awesome:

Beast killer: 65 hit, 9 mt

Base Sothe with A Micaiah:

18 + 2 + 27 = 57 mt.

20 x 2 + 15 + 8 + 65 = 128 hit.

Enemy avo: 38 to 52.

Do you see the same problem I see?

Every extra level applies his 225% hit growth. While he'll never reach 100%, he currently ranges from 90 listed down to 76 listed. 98.10 to 88.72.

If we can get him 2 levels, 80 listed is 92.20%. 3 levels: 82 listed is 93.70%. 4 levels: 85 listed is 95.65%.

So considering his chance to miss x enemy hit% is sometimes his chance to die, I'd rather reduce that as much as possible. Also there will be more 98%+ hit rates with more levels because tigers top out at 43 avo. Considering paragon in 1-8 is all about building for part 3, I'd say giving him paragon is valid.

That was with Sothe's +2. Oh, but the boss might be in a Thicket, so she might need 1 more. Chip damage, Sacrifice and a boss won't do all that for her.

It's funny, I don't remember needing her that high for this kill...

Thickets don't boost res.

What makes him more durable? 1 range? If anything that makes him less durable because he takes player phase counters.

I'm guessing by being more durable (with the shield and extra levels or something) he can actually do something on enemy phase. Still, I'm not sure I'd use him on enemy phase or if he gets good enough to be used well.

Rofl at that. Wind Edge has 60 Hit and can't be forged, and every bow except Steel and Silver Longbows beat that. Leonardo and Edward start with the same base 30 Hit, but Leonardo has 215% accuracy growth while Edward has 180%. Coins aside, Leo's weapon can have as much as 45 more Hit than Edward's and will also be stronger, combined with Leo actually having 1 more Str at base than Edward. Edward's range is not good, and his affinity won't fix that.

Oh, and he won't double much either. Wind Edge weighs 10, and he needs to be level 9 to reach that. If he's got that at 1-5, his 15 AS only doubles Mages. He needs 16+ by 1-6-1, and he needs to be level 11 for that, and that's mostly lower end enemies.

Sadly, yeah, Leo can pick up a forge and have 19 mt at base and a small to none chance of missing stuff. Ed misses rather frequently with a wind edge if he isn't on a ledge, and besides, Ilyana with a forge is even better than Leo.

Huh? Sothe is going to be the only one down there.

I think he means after Sothe runs up a bit he can give the key to another unit and they run forward etc. in order to speed up the process of getting the northeast chest open while killing the enemies near the boss and getting Laura out by turn 10. Efficiency and all that.

Giving Paragon to Zihark/Volug/Sothe in 1-8 > giving it Micaiah in 1-9. Besides, she'd prefer Resolve, to give her actual chances of surviving.

Actually, considering there are enemies there that can OHKO her if she's robe-less, I'd have to say paragon is superior for her if she's around level 15 or 16 since Resolve isn't saving her if it never activates anyway. Still, there is the whole Sothe using it in 1-8 thing. He's taking a bunch of mage kills since he's the best for that thanks to his forged iron knife. As for the other enemies, he may well get them, too.

[Florete]

And I'm still not certain why Edward only gets 3 levels in 4 chapters.

"I get 2HKOd by like everything and don't even get that much experience because it's hard mode."

I don't think we should just ignore it's existence, though. I see no real reason to assume Zihark has it in 3-6. Nor Edward. We might as well do the comparisons with the shield and without.

Isn't that what we're doing? Robo Ky tried to use the Draco as a way to move Edward up. I'm saying it doesn't do enough to get him out of Lower Mid. Your posts have kind of given him a bit more than I originally showed, but it still isn't very much considering a lot of enemies still 2HKO him.

Frankly, I'm seeing 20/1 Edward for 3-6 rather easily.

-Quoting only this to save space-

Okay, since you seemed to get the message "I don't care about turn counts" from what I said, I'll say you're wrong. Really, you kind of blew that out of proportion, especially when I had this:

I have to guess since I can't seem to find my guide on this game, but 15 turns should be sufficient for half BEXP, and then our tier 1 units get more CEXP and building B ZiharkxJill shouldn't be too difficult.

Which would suggest that I'm going for the safer-yet-still-efficient method since part 1 chapters are generally pretty tough and turn count BEXP generally isn't abundant. This does not mean "Turn counts don't matter," it means "Sacrifice a few now to save some later." BEXP turn counts can be a nice guideline, but it isn't definite. So cut the "Turn counts no longer matter" BS.

Also, since Zihark gets a piddling amount of exp in 1-6 and 1-7, I don't need him fighting either since I could instead get more kills for my tier 1s, and now his utility goes down because speeding up a chapter gets outweighed by how he weakens my other units.

Except we don't judge characters when not using them. If we're going to rank Zihark, we use him. Experience has no value in itself other than self-improvement. The fact that Zihark gets less is a result of a higher level, but his performance beats a lot of others.

I think Micaiah is force deployed between Sothe and Volug, and Sothe is on the right side. So she'd have to build with either Volug or Sothe if we want to build Jill and Zihark. At the least, it means no free points for Micaiah + someone else. I admit that Nolan and Edward don't need much to get A. They likely got a B for 1-6. If we are snailing chapters now, then they could have a B in 1-5, technically. Anyway, if we snail 1-6, they'll have an A for 1-7, otherwise it's 1-8. Still, it takes so little over two chapters that it's a non-issue. Stupid Volug can't start next to anyone that isn't Micaiah, so that doesn't help me.

You're right about Micaiah's deployment spot, but there's a spot 1 space above her that her supporter can take if it isn't Volug. Jill and Zihark can take the two spots to the south and we're ready to roll.

But shouldn't we at least acknowledge that if we aren't trying to super speed Zihark's support in order to make him decent in part 3 then we can do things more efficiently?

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Building Zihark's support is inefficient?

Well, consider doing 1-7 in 10 turns while keeping Jill and Zihark adjacent the entire time. It's really hard. But it's also funny. If we take 15 turns, that's still 60% of the time. It's not funny hard anymore, but it's still not simple.

Consider the possibility of 1-2 turns being ended with a Rescue as well due to not enemies around. This is better in 1-E where we have Rafiel (Drop + canto + Vigor).

Trouble is that putting him on best for many turns puts him on worst for many turns in 3-12 or 3-13. He can't be on best for all of them. It sucks for Ed that he's going to be on worst for some time every chapter, but at least he will have spurts of best on every chapter. Zihark can easily spend an entire chapter on worst.

But again, you can't really count that against Zihark because both him and Edward spend equal amounts of time on each section of Biorythm. Zihark spends 32% of a full biorythm scale on Best and another 32% on worst. It's the same for Edward. 8 turns out of 25. If Edward could claim "I don't care about biorythm," you'd have a case, but that isn't the situation.

Assuming crowning if necessary in 4-3/4/5 for the DB members, and paragon in one chapter in part 3 since we aren't raising very many of them, level 12 Ed and level 15 Zihark seem reasonable to me. Ed actually pulls off 3HKOs that Zihark doesn't while wielding a steel sword forge. With it, he can get ~70% proc rates compared to Zihark's ~50%. His durability isn't terrible anymore thanks to stars, etc. He's actually better than many of the GMs that suddenly find themselves unable to double and aren't coming close to a 70% proc rate. And that's Ed with just 20/12. Even 17/12 should be able to 3HKO. So I'd say he could be more than meh.

Even with Paragon those levels are high. I might get all my units to level --/7-10, max, and Volug to ~18-20, maybe Sothe and Zihark a bit higher for higher base levels. 20/12 for Edward is much too high without multiple chapters of Paragon.

By the way Narga, where do you actually stand on this? Do you want the gap to close or something? Do you want Zihark down or Edward up?

[grandjackal]

That was with Sothe's +2. Oh, but the boss might be in a Thicket, so she might need 1 more. Chip damage, Sacrifice and a boss won't do all that for her.

Fine, someone can weaken him first. With this boss's nature, he's usually at your throat by himself, where other units struggle to reach you. This is so going left or right. The boss might actually be able to double Nolan, can double most others, and Sothe has to steal discipline off him. This leaves only one other shiny man. Edward is among the most accurate, and probably your safest bet at a weakening. Hell, with Draco and level 9 (which indeed would be overleveled, that's like 1.75 levels a chapter), he could take 3 shots from the boss. If level 9 is relaistic for this level though...Eddie landing a crit with steel, reduces him to 11. Michaiah could finish that off with basic light at that point.

It's funny, I don't remember needing her that high for this kill...

Probably because you don't.

He doesn't double reliably until, like, 3-12, and even then he might be borderline. He doubles Tigers as well, but misses Cats. And this in no way entitles him to more kills anyway. Only performance gets units more kills, and Edward's durability sucks too much to be exposed to many enemies.

Yeah, when you don't allow him to be used, like you seem to be doing. You're limiting Eddie so bad at times, that you're favoring people who don't actually benefit much at all, or don't need the extra EXP anyways. Your'e basically measuring Eddie when he's getting by on absolutely nothing.

What makes him more durable? 1 range? If anything that makes him less durable because he takes player phase counters.

Yes, unlike Miccy and Leo, he can become more durable. When he does, it's more pronounced because he's an actual goddamn combat unit. He's got ways to do it too. Draco+defensive affinity. It's quite easy to make him as generally tough as Aran by chapter 1-4. Aran with offense, isn't that special?

Quit acting like the wing edge doesn't exist either.

Rofl at that. Wind Edge has 60 Hit and can't be forged, and every bow except Steel and Silver Longbows beat that. Leonardo and Edward start with the same base 30 Hit, but Leonardo has 215% accuracy growth while Edward has 180%. Coins aside, Leo's weapon can have as much as 45 more Hit than Edward's and will also be stronger, combined with Leo actually having 1 more Str at base than Edward. Edward's range is not good, and his affinity won't fix that.

With Eddie's skill and luck, at realistic levels (of which you just refuse to give it to, because apparently an archer possibly doing 1 more damage is just too much to pass up). he has close to Nolan's hit with a hand axe, of which he can close the gap even better thanks to his acc boosting affinity...Sure, his best support is Nolan anyways, but you get the point. Another deal I don't see anyone doing with it is doubling with existing crit rates.

Oh, and he won't double much either. Wind Edge weighs 10, and he needs to be level 9 to reach that. If he's got that at 1-5, his 15 AS only doubles Mages. He needs 16+ by 1-6-1, and he needs to be level 11 for that, and that's mostly lower end enemies.

This would include the boss, but I'm turning on my game now, currently I got Eddie level 10 here, Nolan at realistic levels as well. Another thing he can do with that wing edge now that he's doubling those mages that others not Sothe and Volug can do-actually kill them. He gains a level and I don't have to even worry anymore. By now I could have an Aran with this sort of offense. Why deny us of that for the sake of..an archer?

Maybe capable of dying more.

Unless you're just trying to hype his part 4, which isn't good enough considering the suck it took to get there.

You do realize he's capable of pulling Aran numbers for durability this early, right? With quite a bit more avoid? With a draco at this time, he's basically as durable as Aran, and a justified support with Nolan gets him Zihark-like avoid. You are exagerating his death chances, when he can clearly improve on this if you give him a chance.

I have no reason to "hype" his part 4, as we all seem to agree that Eddie has great part 4 anyways.

Huh? Sothe is going to be the only one down there.

Trade the key to someone, bring it up to the head guy, I just got closer to unlocking the chest in a single turn than dragging Sothe's ass up there.

Giving Paragon to Zihark/Volug/Sothe in 1-8 > giving it Micaiah in 1-9. Besides, she'd prefer Resolve, to give her actual chances of surviving.

Volug with Elite is basically a level 20/10 guy, which by your average is the levels of DB units like part way through part 3. Volug is putting it to absolute waste.

Michaiah gets more out of Paragon, as while Zihark and Sothe could get part of a level, Michaiah could have gotten 2, and keeps it for 1-9 where there is absolutely no one else. You are depriving her of an easy level 20 here, and to give her Resolve? You can still have Michaiah do stuff in 1-9 without Resolve, you win that map by not being stupid.

[Jaybee]

I'm gonna propose another swap: Volke above Lucia? I honestly don't see Lucia's 2-2 being > Volke in 4-5 & endgame.

[grandjackal]

Sounds cool to me, since it's not like Volke and Sothe can't both exist here and perform great in their own ways.

[Interceptor]

This Eddie argument has become too convoluted, I don't even know what people are arguing about anymore. Robo Ky, I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, but incrementalism is not a vice. I've been slowly cranking Mia up the tier list since, like, May. Nothing about my argument for her has really changed in these passing months, but she used to be in the ass-end of Upper Mid and there would have been revolt if someone tried to leapfrog a tier and a half. See also Gatrie, another one of my pet characters, who also used to be slumming in Upper Mid.

Back on topic, Narga picked up on one of the things that irritates me so I will add my comment. Yes, technically getting max BEXP is a fool's game when you're talking about efficiency. Partly this is because Part 1 BEXP is so anemic, and partly this is because sometimes going faster than the BEXP limits is possible/advisable.

The problem I have is that spending time in Part 1 does not pay for itself, at least not to the extent that it does in GM Part 3. Dragging things out in Part 1 costs X turns, but does not manifiest itself into X turns of savings later on, because the hax units in Part 1 are just seriously that hax. Nailah, Tauroneo, and the BK are always going to be your trump cards, and any training that you do on other units has a minimal effect when these Jesus-class units are around. Even in Part 3 you have a very straightforward path availible to you that uses prepromotes at nearly base level:

• 3-6: Micaiah/Sothe Savior clear. Uses BK, takes ~13 turns. You need an EPICLY strong team and the luck of the Irish to go more than 1-2 turns faster than this. We're talking multiple tier 2 promoted units, here, and lots of chances (like relying on Zihark's evasion, for one). Since this requires 46 kills to clear, and the map doesn't even start with that many units to kill, there is literally a floor on how fast this chapter can possibly go.
  
• 3-12: All that you need for this one is an established C or B support between ZiharkxVolug, and Crownoneo. Everything else is NPCs and ledge combat. Tier 2 beorcs are just not that difficult to kill. Again, it takes an EPIC team to go more than a couple turns faster than the Easy Button clear, aka to the extent that you'd have to have someone powerful enough to ORKO and survive liek 5-6 attacks on Enemy Phase.
  
• 3-13: Two meaty units, some clever positioning, and skillful use of Direct for ballista usage, and you have this chapter 90% in the bag. In order to go faster than max turns here, you need an EPICLY strong team that can both 1) push down to Ike and 2) kill the bastard, because otherwise the best you can hope for is putting him to Sleep and sniping him with Micaiah on Turn 12.

This is really a bridge too far for the Dawn Brigade, I am sorry. If we are aiming for keeping total turn counts low, everything points to using the DB as a means to an end. There is nothing that you can do for the growth units in Part 1 that's going to simultaneously result in 1) them useful in Part 3/4, and 2) a low total turn count. The reason is that we already have a multitude of superior drop-in replacements for them once 3-13 is over. The only reason that units like Volug or Zihark or possibly Nolan can squeak by is that they are good enough or clutch enough that they don't need much training in Part 1 to be useful outside of it.

tl;dr, padding turn counts in Part 1 for any reason at all is a slippery slope to undermining the purpose of the tier list. I am OK with floating the idea of it, but only given that people assign a serious negative to the time that it takes to make Eddie a GM-class unit.

[Zkirsche]

What I meant was that I don't know if Ranulf should go down or Naesala up, or meet in the middle. Is Naesala better than everyone currently in between?

Well, considering I believe Ranulf is fine in the tier list (Oscar/Neph don't have massive availability leads on him and his stats are very good, ORKO'ing lots and being very durable at the same time. He can probably survive a little bit untransformed to help increase gauge if necessary, but I CBA to look into it right now after this Mist vs Volke debate in PoR tier list. He can use adept and resolve quite well and getting 'S' strike shouldn't be impossible. He also has mobility leads.), Naesala up.

[Interceptor]

I'm not so sure about Ranulf being better than Nephenee. This tier list has not looked at Neph any time that I've been posting here, except briefly when I was arguing Mia up to bottom of High tier.

Nephenee is basically in a similiar position as Mia, aka doubling where other people fail, while 3HKO'ing with real crit. She lacks the ability to do the superman Adept+Vantage+Cancel combination, but she has Wrath and can do Adept + one of those items. She does not have Mia's evasion, but she's considerably more evasive than a normal face-tank owing to her SPD and affinity, and she eventually grows decent concrete durability to go along with it. Impale is almost twice as good as Astra. While her 1-2 is pretty poor due to being a lance user, Javelins can eventually be forged to respectable statistics. Nephenee is one of the best Endgame candidates (pays off in the long run), and arguably the best Wishblade user. Her BEXP abuse potential is second only to Aran's, except she can actually slow-play it to significantly cut down on use of the resource.

Ranulf's bases would make him a damn good unit... if he wasn't cat. As such, he spends a lot of time unable to use them effectively and runs the risk of being unavailible in clutch situations. Then there is the problem where his stats aren't quite good enough to be godly, as he's missing clean ORKOs, has very modest growths, and levels almost like a tier 3 beorc. His 2-range game doesn't even exist, never mind being bad. Etc.

Upper Mid needs some attention.

[Zkirsche]

Upper Mid needs some attention.

Funny, we've looked at top (Reyson vs Ike vs Haar. Sothe in top arguments. Volug in top), then high (Gatrie + Mia up, herons down. Nolan < Hawks. Zihark < Nailah etctera) and now upper mid. It's like we're doing everything in order.

I'm happy with Neph's position. She's a good unit, as you presented, but not nearly as good as Mia herself for doubling much, much less. And her Crit is worse and her proc rates are nowhere near as reliable. This makes a tier gap seem reasonable IMO. If not, just compare her to Oscar, who's directly above her (lol, this is gonna be GFAQ's all over again) and work your way from thier.

Edited August 31, 2009 by kirsche

[Colonel M]

Not spamming: still say Ike and Haar > Raisin Brand.

Nephenee is an odd character since a lot of her business involves a bit of BEXP slowplay. The Str is what irks me, but since she can double a bit better than Oscar (seriously people, she doesn't have the stupid cap)... but Oscar does have that whole "I don't need as much CEXP and still have better Atk".

[grandjackal]

Nephenee is Oscar with worse bases, without a horse, a worse affinity, but better caps and lower base for better leveling speed, though Oscar can crown basically whenever. Comparison over.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Robo Ky