OMG it's a tier list

[FlyingOx]

I don't even complete chapters in 13-15 turns, so...

Spend a little extra time to obtain CEXP for who? In the DB, tier 1 is a euphemism for crap, unless you're Nolan or Jill, in which case you're just mediocre. The CEXP cut is so frustrating that it's virtually impossible to get units like Eddie, Leo, Meg, or Aran to 20/0 by 1-E (case in point: I had used Leo extensively through part 1 and he ended at 14/0), and unless we're planning on using crappy units later on, we don't really care about CEXP in part 1.

I mean, if we really did care about CEXP in part 1, we shouldn't advocate using Sothe, Zihark, Volug, Muarim, Tormod, Vika, Nailah, and BK so much!

Even Nolan and Jill want experience. Doubling issues and even potential accuracy issues means their offense in Pt 1 is pretty much always worse than our super units you just mentioned above. And unless you plan on throwing a bunch of defensive stat boosters to Nolan and Jill, they're looking at 2HKO's at pt 3 for a while as well. For more food for thought: 1-E has a 12 turn limit for max BEXP, and although it's certainly possible to hit that goal, how many kills are we throwing to BK or Nailah that easily could've gone to Nolan or Jill if not for the turn limit? 12 turns is pretty fast you know.

Due to their low caps, both characters hit 25 spd after promotion, though Titania promotes first, which gives her a temporary advantage there. Once both promote, Gatrie's growth lead only results in 1 extra speed every 10 level-ups, and he hits his third tier spd cap of 31 at about 20/20/13, whereas Titania's is 33. Suffice to say, Gatrie and Titania double roughly the same.

Gatrie caps his speed at --/15, which is five levels away from base, after which we can crown him for 25 Spd. Titania needs to hit --/20/1, also five levels from base, to get 25 Spd, but being 6 levels higher is going to net less Exp gain. 3-4's a bad chapter for horses, so she might even have less chance to gain exp. We could crown Titania I suppose, but I believe there's only 1 for the GM's until 3-11 (not completely sure on this part).

The higher exp gain doesn't really tell us anything because you didn't talk about any stats (hp/def/hit/etc). Sure, Gatrie is better at melee, but 3 move (1.5 times what Gatrie has) is very significant, and Titania is always at an advantage if she reaches the enemy first since Gatrie can't kill what he doesn't attack.

At base stats, their offense is relatively the same, ditto for after promotion (aside from Luna vs Sol), but Gatrie's base defense is pretty much equivalent to Titania's at --/20/3. Taking a look at 3-2 enemies, Titania's looking at ~4HKO while Gatrie's looking at ~6HKO (looking at base stats), and Gatrie's got 60% def growth over Titania's 20%. For the 3 move thing, that's what I brought Celerity up for -

Titania could take that as well.

True, although I don't see her consistently using all 11 move, since she still wants to stay in support range. And Gatrie+Celerity's still got an extra 10 skill capacity to work with, for something like Provoke.

If you want to optimize the use of celerity, then it's going to one of Haar/Ike/Reyson. Reyson especially will have an easier time vigoring 4 units, can keep up with the team better and can avoid enemies more frequently, so it's a very significant boost to his performance.

Haar's 9 move + flying is usually enough for him, and the GM's likely have multiple fronts to fight on, so having 2 high mobility tanks is be better than 1. Ike works well w/ celerity too, although if he's supported w/ a 7 move unit, he's not always going to be using the full 9 move. Reyson + Celerity makes the most sense, but he's not always transformed, and he doesn't show up until 3-5. Celerity's a skill so it can be passed around anyways.

[dondon151]

For more food for thought: 1-E has a 12 turn limit for max BEXP, and although it's certainly possible to hit that goal, how many kills are we throwing to BK or Nailah that easily could've gone to Nolan or Jill if not for the turn limit? 12 turns is pretty fast you know.

I spent 30 turns on 1-E abusing Jarod so Jill and Nolan could get to 19/0. That aside, there are very few things that you can do safely in this chapter. Volug at this point is 3-4RKO'd, so for stuff like getting to the top level where Jarod stands, you'll want Nailah and BK to clear away the enemies first. This is actually one of the worst levels to take slowly for the sake of CEXP because Jarod's authority stars will make your units tend to miss often (though I suppose you could forge hit...).

Gatrie caps his speed at --/15, which is five levels away from base, after which we can crown him for 25 Spd. Titania needs to hit --/20/1, also five levels from base, to get 25 Spd, but being 6 levels higher is going to net less Exp gain. 3-4's a bad chapter for horses, so she might even have less chance to gain exp. We could crown Titania I suppose, but I believe there's only 1 for the GM's until 3-11 (not completely sure on this part).

3-4 is a shitty chapter for Gatrie, too. At least Titania gets about 2/3 of the map totally unhindered while Gatrie still has movement issues and gaps to climb over.

Side note: I feel like trying to argue Leo > Eddie but I'll have to play 3-6 first. Regardless, I believe as if people are estimating Eddie's level to be way higher than it should be whenever they talk about him...

Edited June 14, 2009 by dondon151

[Rei]

Well, most of the people under him can do more than just 3 chapters of being useful and then being a dead weight for the rest of the game. You're right as it doesn't hurt his part 1 effectiveness, but if anything, he should be used as a last resort, or just to weaken enemies to feed Nolan, Volug, Micaiah, Aran, and other useful units. And again, it's only for 3 chapters. I think he should be a lot lower since albeit 3 chapters which he doesn't really make it a ton easier, he's useless. I think he and Vika deserve to be in the worst 10.

If anything he's useful for is Celerity. That's like, it. But that doesn't make him as a character useful.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Aozaki Touko

[Vykan12]

Side note: I feel like trying to argue Leo > Eddie but I'll have to play 3-6 first. Regardless, I believe as if people are estimating Eddie's level to be way higher than it should be whenever they talk about him...

Okay, just make sure you don't argue beastfoe on Leo since any durable unit in the DB can make far greater use of it.

[Progenitus]

Well, most of the people under him can do more than just 3 chapters of being useful and then being a dead weight for the rest of the game. You're right as it doesn't hurt his part 1 effectiveness, but if anything, he should be used as a last resort, or just to weaken enemies to feed Nolan, Volug, Micaiah, Aran, and other useful units. And again, it's only for 3 chapters. I think he should be a lot lower since albeit 3 chapters which he doesn't really make it a ton easier, he's useless. I think he and Vika deserve to be in the worst 10.

lolwut, Vika/Tormod in bottom 10?

The units in the bottom 10 are the idiots like Astrid and Kyza who are awful the entire game. At least Tormod/Vika are useful for a few chapters.

useful for a few chapters >>>>>> suckingmassively forever

[Rei]

lolwut, Vika/Tormod in bottom 10?

The units in the bottom 10 are the idiots like Astrid and Kyza who are awful the entire game. At least Tormod/Vika are useful for a few chapters.

useful for a few chapters >>>>>> suckingmassively forever

Sanaki isn't completely useless the entire game, even though she comes late with shitty HP.

Renning can at least go into combat without dying instantly and still fight a few chapters late game.

Well, you're right that bottom 10 is pushing it since they all suck. Though the fact that Tormod is > Ilyana and Nasir who is super useful at making people double the endgame. I don't care if it's just one chapter. In that one tough chapter that he's extremely useful, while Tormod and Vika are alright for 3 chapters where you don't need that much help. And the more kills they get, the more exp that's taken from your DB units that really need it to make surviving CH3 easier.

[dondon151]

Okay, just make sure you don't argue beastfoe on Leo since any durable unit in the DB can make far greater use of it.

I question the existence of this "durable unit in the DB."

[Zkirsche]

I question the existence of this "durable unit in the DB."

Someone seems to have fogotten about Nolan who has decent avo and gets 3RKO'ed and Volug, who also has great avo yet faces lower RKO rates.

[Rei]

And Aran has a shitton of defense too even though he's got really crappy speed. He'll get doubled in Chapter 3, but he doesn't take TOO much damage, and definitely works well as a wall that Micaiah or Laura can heal for some EXP / Staff EXP.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Aozaki Touko

[grandjackal]

Someone seems to have fogotten about Nolan who has decent avo and gets 3RKO'ed and Volug, who also has great avo yet faces lower RKO rates.

Guess they can live and don't need anything to really boost their offense, considering this is a defense chapter...

Besides, Leo puts it to the best use. Whips out crossbow, shoots over a laguz shoulder, gets traded to Lughnasahd, now he's walling AND killing. Nolan can't do this. He always has to switch to a 1 range weapon (since you can't de-quip him with other characters), and it would just call more attention to himself. He's better just tanking.

Offense is Volug's LAST problem here.

And Aran has a shitton of defense too even though he's got really crappy speed. He'll get doubled in Chapter 3, but he doesn't take TOO much damage, and definitely works well as a wall that Micaiah or Laura can heal for some EXP / Staff EXP.

Not enough defense to matter thanks to his abysmal HP and the sheer power of the laguz (and speed in his slow-ass case). Did you know he's no better than Eddie here?

[Zkirsche]

Guess they can live and don't need anything to really boost their offense, considering this is a defense chapter...

Besides, Leo puts it to the best use. Whips out crossbow, shoots over a laguz shoulder, gets traded to Lughnasahd, now he's walling AND killing. Nolan can't do this. He always has to switch to a 1 range weapon (since you can't de-quip him with other characters), and it would just call more attention to himself. He's better just tanking.

Offense is Volug's LAST problem here.

Nolan can use a crossbow. Then Volug doesn't ORKO reliably, so likes the offensive boost.

These guys can Wall and Kill too, except they wall better.

[Mekkah]

What's this obsession with Beastfoe Nolan using crossbows? He'd rather use Tarvos.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Mekkah

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

What's this obsession with Beastfoe Nolan using crossbows? He'd rather use Tarvos.

Apparently, some people care more about doing more damage than Tarvos's +4 def boost.

[Shadow Mir]

Apparently, some people care more about doing more damage than Tarvos's +4 def boost.

I guess so. But it's overkill. I'm sure Tarvos can one-shot with Beastfoe.

[Zkirsche]

I guess so. But it's overkill. I'm sure Tarvos can one-shot with Beastfoe.

This is true, but Kuja made a point saying that since Leo can use crossbows he is the best unit to use beastfoe. I merely stated that Nolan can do the same.

[dondon151]

I can't even imagine how Leo can possibly take even one attack given how difficult it is to level him up.

If Nolan OHKOs enemies with Beastfoe, then wouldn't you think that giving him the skill is a bad idea? Considering, you know, he only needs to kill two laguz on enemy phase to be toast? If Nolan is one of the more durable units on your team, I'd rather have him choking passageways instead of running around blicking laguz.

Again, I'll have to play 3-6 to see if my idea actually works (only on 3-2 atm...).

Edited June 14, 2009 by dondon151

[Progenitus]

Sanaki isn't completely useless the entire game, even though she comes late with shitty HP.

Apparently getting lolOHKO'd or loldoubled by over half the map, and only 2HKOing and not doubling in part 4 with amazing 6 move means she's not completely useless.

Renning can at least go into combat without dying instantly and still fight a few chapters late game.

You mean how I could choose basically anyone else, except they'd be better than Renning?

Well, you're right that bottom 10 is pushing it since they all suck. Though the fact that Tormod is > Ilyana and Nasir who is super useful at making people double the endgame.

Nasir vs Tormod is debatable. I'd side with Nasir. +5 spd is sexy even if his two chapters are very short.

I actually checked the list. wtfux @ Nasir in lower mid.

The tier list overrates availability far too much. wtf @ Rolf being in middle despite the fact taht he sucks dick the entire game. wtf @ boyd being in upper mid despite being not much better than rolf.

I don't care if it's just one chapter. In that one tough chapter that he's extremely useful, while Tormod and Vika are alright for 3 chapters where you don't need that much help. And the more kills they get, the more exp that's taken from your DB units that really need it to make surviving CH3 easier.

The issue here isn't that Tormod is too high, but rather Nasir is ridiculously low.

Also, Tormod/Vika don't need to actually KILL anything to make themselves useful. They're like Jeigan/Marcus. You have them around to kill off tough enemies or get you out of tight spots. They're there for insurance, not to actually solo the map.

[Colonel M]

Actually Bowgun Nolan > Crossbow due to the cheaper price, but you get the point. Nolan also puts Beastfoe to great use in 3-13 when 1-2 range is helpful.

[Jaybee]

Am I the only one who gives Beastfoe to Miccy?

[Pride]

Am I the only one who gives Beastfoe to Miccy?

No. I even give it to Laura.

[nflchamp]

For the Zihark/Nolan A support discussion (or I guess, leading from the discussion), what is the upper limit you'd put on every chapter? You can't have no upper limit. That would turn a tier list into a who can most easily be favored list.

[Colonel M]

No. I even give it to Laura.

Actually... a good question: does it [beastfoe] work on Staves during the counterattack? I'm assuming no, but it would be lol if it did.

[dondon151]

I see no reason why it shouldn't, but 3x0 is still 0 so it wouldn't have any visible effect...

[Jaybee]

I'm at 4-2 now, so I think it may work.

[Mekkah]

note how she has Dragonfoe