OMG it's a tier list

[Jaybee]

Generally, I only find Blood Tide useful for Dheg, auras and Ashera, whereas I only find Night Tide useful when a unit's gonna die. Not gonna happen, since most endgame teams are overpowered or you didn't bring the laguz kings/queens.

[Florete]

I am proposing moving Sigrun up to Lower Mid, mainly for utility. Chapter by chapter:

She can cover potholes in 3-11. Very useful.

She can Rescue Ena in 3-E and drop her next to someone who gets hit by the Sleep staff. This is small, but it's still a plus considering she's forced anyway.

4-P, she can fly over terrain, making her good for transporting characters across.

4-3 is the desert, ferrying rules here.

Screw Endgame.

And then she has Water affinity, a great affinity for someone who hasn't been able to a find another partner. Depending on how well you glue the units together, they might get the benefits for up to 3 maps.

But is this better than those above her?

Hm...I thought Danved was already in Lower Mid...I'll skip him.

Bastian has none of this utility. All he really does is heal for a chapter and then Endgame if he goes.

Vika has constant transformation issues, isn't even too good in part 1, and sucks ass in part 4.

I'll go more in-depth if someone contests this.

[Jaybee]

If there was some stuff based on utility, then shouldn't Nasir be in Mid tier?

I still move that Mist should go below Rhys, or that the gap should be closed considerably.

[Shadow Mir]

If there was some stuff based on utility, then shouldn't Nasir be in Mid tier?

I still move that Mist should go below Rhys, or that the gap should be closed considerably.

Not responding to the stuff about Nasir, but lolno at Rhys over Mist. Why should Rhys be above Mist when all he's got over her is better offense (which is still bad)?

Edited June 16, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin

[Jaybee]

Along with ten more points of HP heaied with a heal staff.

[Shadow Mir]

Along with ten more points of HP healed with a heal staff.

Which is overkill.

[dondon151]

Mend Mend Mend Mend Mend

[-Cynthia-]

I am proposing moving Sigrun up to Lower Mid, mainly for utility. Chapter by chapter:

She can cover potholes in 3-11. Very useful.

She can Rescue Ena in 3-E and drop her next to someone who gets hit by the Sleep staff. This is small, but it's still a plus considering she's forced anyway.

4-P, she can fly over terrain, making her good for transporting characters across.

4-3 is the desert, ferrying rules here.

Screw Endgame.

And then she has Water affinity, a great affinity for someone who hasn't been able to a find another partner. Depending on how well you glue the units together, they might get the benefits for up to 3 maps.

But is this better than those above her?

Hm...I thought Danved was already in Lower Mid...I'll skip him.

Bastian has none of this utility. All he really does is heal for a chapter and then Endgame if he goes.

Vika has constant transformation issues, isn't even too good in part 1, and sucks ass in part 4.

I'll go more in-depth if someone contests this.

Bastian is significantly better in Endgame due to staff utility though.

Vika is competing with the DB, she's the only flier in 1-8. Sigrun is competing with the GMs and then Naesala/Skirmir, although in her defense she's forced anyway so it doesn't matter as much.

Edited June 16, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

Bastian is significantly better in Endgame due to staff utility though.

But he's still not very good, and it's all he has. Sigrun has been useful already before that.

Vika is competing with the DB, she's the only flier in 1-8. Sigrun is competing with the GMs and then Naesala/Skirmir, although in her defense she's forced anyway so it doesn't matter as much.

Did you counter your own point in the same sentence, or did I read it wrong?

[Jaybee]

Which is overkill.

Nope, it isn't overkill. Units like Boyd die in 4-5 hits, less if a mage attacks. Rhys can fully heal the damage taken with a goddamn HEAL staff. Mist needs to use a Mend staff. Heal staffs are cheaper and have more uses. It's obviously doing more in Rhy's hands than it is in Mist's. Rhys also has better offense, which can be used to weaken an enemy so that Oscar/Boyd/Ike/Gatrie/Haar don't need to eat a counter or not get the kill. What does Mist do, 3 damage? Seriously, Level 6 Rhys can do comparable damage to Level 18 Boyd in 3-E mainly because he hits Res. And that was with Ellight.

[Interceptor]

Mist needs to use a Mend staff. Heal staffs are cheaper and have more uses.

Wake me up when Mend staves are rare, and/or the GMs can't afford to buy them for Mist. If you're going to grouse about their MAG differences, you should at least be mentioning Physic staves. I'm telling you right now, Heal vs. Mend is a non-starter.

[-Cynthia-]

But he's still not very good, and it's all he has. Sigrun has been useful already before that.

True, most of Sigrun/Bastian depends on how you weigh 4-E

Did you counter your own point in the same sentence, or did I read it wrong?

I did to an extent, since I'm not sure if I disagree with you. Sigrun does do worse in comparison to her competition compared to Vika. It arguably matters less though, since she's not taking up a slot while doing so.

Edited June 16, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Shadow Mir]

Nope, it isn't overkill. Units like Boyd die in 4-5 hits, less if a mage attacks. Rhys can fully heal the damage taken with a goddamn HEAL staff. Mist needs to use a Mend staff. Heal staffs are cheaper and have more uses. It's obviously doing more in Rhy's hands than it is in Mist's. Rhys also has better offense, which can be used to weaken an enemy so that Oscar/Boyd/Ike/Gatrie/Haar don't need to eat a counter or not get the kill. What does Mist do, 3 damage? Seriously, Level 6 Rhys can do comparable damage to Level 18 Boyd in 3-E mainly because he hits Res. And that was with Ellight.

I see three things in this post: Bullcrap, offense hype, and MAG hype. I wonder what I see the most of...? Like Interceptor said, Mend staves aren't rare, and I say again, Rhys's "better" offense is still lame, and you forget that Rhys has crap for moblilty.

[nflchamp]

I did to an extent, since I'm not sure if I disagree with you. Sigrun does do worse in comparison to her competition compared to Vika. It arguably matters less though, since she's not taking up a slot while doing so.

Vika is recruited in 1-7 and forced in 1-8. The only time Vika is eating up a unit slot is in 1-E.

Edited June 16, 2009 by nflchamp

[-Cynthia-]

Vika is recruited in 1-7 and forced in 1-8. The only time Vika is eating up a unit slot is in 1-E.

That's true as well, but the point was that Sigrun being forced means she's not pushing out a better unit for a slot, even though there are better units on the team.

Edited June 16, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Got damn, Fiona got critted by a myrmidon in 1-6-2. What is with these maps where NPCs have a chance to die before you can even reach them?

Started a new HM playthrough, and am wondering why Nolan > Zihark. Zihark has a huge offensive lead on him in part 1 (he 3HKOes armors with both a forged steel and a killing edge, then there's adept/crit to consider, and he even does well with a wind edge) whereas Nolan doesn't even double for like all of part 1. Then for durability, Zihark only loses a few hp and actually beats him in def unless you give Nolan a dracoshield (they'll tie), then there's the obvious avo lead. I know there's a lot more to consider, particularly Nolan winning in 3-6, but I'm not seeing it right now.

[-Cynthia-]

Got damn, Fiona got critted by a myrmidon in 1-6-2. What is with these maps where NPCs have a chance to die before you can even reach them?

Started a new HM playthrough, and am wondering why Nolan > Zihark. Zihark has a huge offensive lead on him in part 1 (he 3HKOes armors with both a forged steel and a killing edge, then there's adept/crit to consider, and he even does well with a wind edge) whereas Nolan doesn't even double for like all of part 1. Then for durability, Zihark only loses a few hp and actually beats him in def unless you give Nolan a dracoshield (they'll tie), then there's the obvious avo lead. I know there's a lot more to consider, particularly Nolan winning in 3-6, but I'm not seeing it right now.

Nolan has the chapters in Part 1 before Zihark joins. He beats Zihark for 5 chapters before Zihark joins.

Zihark wins the rest of Part 1, 5 chapters oddly enough.

Nolan wins 3-6 and 3-13, Zihark wins 3-12 I guess, I would say Nolan pulls a lead here.

I would say Zihark wins since his Part 4 is better, mostly due to being at a more appropriate level, though Nolan's Part 4 can be good so I'm not certain. The chapters before Zihark joins Nolan's pretty important in, so that's a big help overall (although I don't think Edward gets enough credit for his earlygame, but that's really another issue).

Edited June 16, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

Also worth noting that Zihark's lead in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 is purely based on offensive output. They are appoximately as durable as each other at this point, since Nolan has a support and Zihark does not.

I wouldn't consider Zihark's Part 4 to be anything special. His mt is so far behind at this point that he's relying on crits for kills. Due to Tibarn's authority stars (is anyone seriously going to send him anywhere else except the easiest army with the most CEXP?) and likely A Earth, he's probably almost invincible, but he's not clean-killing anything. Adept puts his ORKO numbers pretty high, but now there's like 60 other people that his Adept could go to instead of just a handful, and that's assuming you didn't take the intelligent Adept path for him and ship it over with Ilyana (nobody in the DB wants or needs Adept in Part 3, and the GMs could use it for 9 chapters).

Nolan is definitely beating Zihark for MT in Part 4, and he has a better chance of crit-kills, so I'd say the only important thing here is whether Nolan is actually able to double initially (clearly he's eventually doubling).

Edited June 16, 2009 by Interceptor

[Rei]

What's this obsession with Beastfoe Nolan using crossbows? He'd rather use Tarvos.

He should attack with a crossbow and have someone behind your meat walls switch it to Tarvos.

[Interceptor]

and he has a better chance of crit-kills

Ehh, actually he doesn't, doing the math. They are fairly close in tier 3, though.

[Vykan12]

Also worth noting that Zihark's lead in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 is purely based on offensive output.

You're cutting avo short then. Thanks to all the terrain this level has, Zihark only faces ~26-36 display hit against most enemies here.

I wouldn't consider Zihark's Part 4 to be anything special. His mt is so far behind at this point that he's relying on crits for kills.

Crit/astra/adept but wtv.

Nolan is definitely beating Zihark for MT in Part 4, and he has a better chance of crit-kills

Lolwut?

Zihark gains +20 crit from being a TB as opposed to Nolan's 5 as a reaver. He beats him in skill too.

so I'd say the only important thing here is whether Nolan is actually able to double initially (clearly he's eventually doubling.

My Nolan is lv 15/0 in chapter 1-7 right now, and I've been using a very small team of about 6 units, practically soloing with Nolan and Sothe + some backline help before Volug joined. He has 13 AS right now and I've only seen him double a single enemy, a weighed down cavalier in 1-6-2 if I'm not mistaken. His average is 13.6 so it's not like I'm getting RNG screwed silly or anything.

I'd say no doubling from 1-P to 1-7 is pretty horrible, and I won't expect him to be doing it unless I master seal him, but even then 1-E enemies are super fast (Volug has some doubling issues there).

Last thing, I forgot to mention Zihark wins move by 1 until Nolan promotes. Reaching enemies sooner is obviously a plus, and it also makes him support Volug easier, since from what I've seen Jill is abysmal on HM. Nolan would probably be better suited for an Aran support since it starts earlier and he likes the def, especially if he chooses to use tarvos in 3-6 (as opposed to beastfoe + bowgun).

Edited June 16, 2009 by Vykan12

[Vykan12]

You guys have enemy stats, might as well put them to use.

Here’s the AS values of enemies from 1-7 onwards.

1-7

Fighters: 13-15

Soldiers: 14

Myrmidons: 17-18

Mages: 11-13

Archers: 13-16

Armors: 11-13

Nolan doubles consistently at lv 20/0

1-8

Bandits: 14-18

Soldiers: 14-15

Mages: 12-13

Dracoknights: 13

Nolan doubles consistently at lv 20/2

1-E

Fighters: 14-16

Myrmidons: 18-20

Soldiers: 16-17

Archers: 16-17

Mages: 13-14

Armors: 12-15

Nolan doubles consistently at lv 20/5

Clearly, those levels are way out of Nolan’s reach, seeing as though he'd need to be gaining 3 levels per chapter while being overleveled relative to the enemy.

Edit: In 1-7, a lv 16 Nolan only gets 20 exp per kill. He'll be lucky to hit promotion considering how badly everyone else is outperforming him. The brave sword also arrives, which makes things even more convincing on Zihark's end. He can now reliably kill durable enemies, and can also avoid player phase counters against anything he 2HKOes.

Edit 2: Part 1 complete. Nolan lv 18, Zihark lv 20/6 (gave him paragon once it became available, it's not like Sothe's going to get much out of it). Maybe I just play this game too fast (13 turned 1-E while getting all the chests), but it seems to me like almost the entire DB cast is bound to be unusable in part 4 due to lack of exp gain. I'll comment on that later in more detail.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Vykan12

[Zkirsche]

I see three things in this post: Bullcrap, offense hype, and MAG hype. I wonder what I see the most of...? Like Interceptor said, Mend staves aren't rare, and I say again, Rhys's "better" offense is still lame, and you forget that Rhys has crap for moblilty.

Still, the gap between them is too big.

I agree with Zihark > Nolan.

[dondon151]

Edit: In 1-7, a lv 16 Nolan only gets 20 exp per kill. He'll be lucky to hit promotion considering how badly everyone else is outperforming him. The brave sword also arrives, which makes things even more convincing on Zihark's end. He can now reliably kill durable enemies, and can also avoid player phase counters against anything he 2HKOes.

Edit 2: Part 1 complete. Nolan lv 18, Zihark lv 20/6 (gave him paragon once it became available, it's not like Sothe's going to get much out of it). Maybe I just play this game too fast (13 turned 1-E while getting all the chests), but it seems to me like almost the entire DB cast is bound to be unusable in part 4 due to lack of exp gain. I'll comment on that later in more detail.

I have to completely agree with you on this; I got Nolan and Jill to 18/0 without Jarod abuse and the EXP cut in general really hurts the DB. As much as I think Nolan rocks, he's nothing special in part 1 (he feels like a generic with a face plastered on) because his damage output and durability, despite being better than the rest of the DB, is still not good. Basically he joins in 1-1 and gets worse from there.

In fact this lack of EXP is what prompted me to think of Leo > Eddie, because Eddie will never reach a usable level while Leo can remain useful at least through part 3.

[Progenitus]

Edit 2: Part 1 complete. Nolan lv 18, Zihark lv 20/6 (gave him paragon once it became available, it's not like Sothe's going to get much out of it). Maybe I just play this game too fast (13 turned 1-E while getting all the chests), but it seems to me like almost the entire DB cast is bound to be unusable in part 4 due to lack of exp gain. I'll comment on that later in more detail.

Those levels sound about the same as what Paperblade got when he did his HM max BEXP playthrough.

Just curious, what units were you using?