OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

There were two instances I could think of that allowed Gatrie "Rescue Drop" to be effective.

- 3-3, which I exploited it in.

- 3-4 if somehow he can get Crowned and get 24 AS.

And theoretical ones:

- 3-E?

- 4-2?

The 3-4 part requires almost 3-4 levels though (or at least capable of 2RKOing, which is obviously possible but doubling speeds up the process). Consider that Gatrie will get one level throughout 3-P and 3-1, then 3-2 will probably give him an extra 50 EXP perhaps (I don't know the exact figures; I'd have to actually play the map with Gatrie). 3-3 hands him... about 60 EXP. So that's roughly 2 levels, 3 if we're really lucky. I doubt a drop is that effective in 3-8 (he's probably better off walking) and in 3-10 he's best for handling the bottom side anyhow.

I'm all for extending the leash a turn or two if it's desperately needed. I'm not neo-nazi on turn counts much, granted I show it at GFAQs just because it shuts up the twats that say "Nolan / Zihark support can be A by 3-6". The problem is... eh... I don't know how to really explain it.

I don't assume optimal deployment, but we "seem" to come to a consensus on optimal stat / skill distribution. Which technically is a problem for Gatrie in this case IF (and I am stressing the word "if" because I am not 100% certain) Gatrie needs Celerity in order to function. That's why I considered doing another run through of Part 3, or someone can take that save in my topic (it should have a 3-2 save) and do a small play through to evaluate it.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Tyranel M

[grandjackal]

But Haar/Ti/Ike are already above Gatrie so thats moot, and it seems agreed on already that he raise above the hawks. Int and I's problem with Gatrie moving to upper mid is that it puts him in the same league as Oscar/Boyd who have trouble with thier offence/defence capabilities.

And Gatrie has issues with move capabilities. I could argue the Silver Greatlance to Oscar, who for most of earlygame could counter, then kill and canto with this thing (37 might, consider that Titania early on could ORKO with basic steel which would equate to 36 might on her own. Despite not doubling, the fact he has Canto helps aliviate the problem. Only issue is it's balls accuracy, of which I'd prefer in the hands of high move and 11 more acc Oscar than Gatrie), or that despite not being as durable, Boyd can nearly do the same job as Gat while supporting Shinon to allow him kills he could scratch out since he is so barely borderline at times, and the fact that Boyd has actually helped in 3-P since he starts ahead of the group (I can safely say he will stay alongside Titania and Oscar and helping them out up until the boss's area) while Gatrie's lagging behind.

On top of this I could argue that Boyd and Oscar could be tossed eventually after serving a purpose they have, while Gatrie needs to essentially be trained up for all his future benefits. Early on, Oscar and Boyd, despite having no future, still have a slight purpose they can serve, Gatrie does not. There lies my problem with Gatrie.

I mean, one of the many reasons why Haar is given celerity is to rescue drop better. If thats true, who better to rescue drop than Gatrie? Ike/Mia will die by themselves (Yes, even Ike isn't that durable), and Shinon has no enemy phase. I'd liek to see Boyd/Nephenee do as much as Gatrie can through doing this.

Gatrie has an entire 3 Def on Ike, are you serious? Let's not stop there though, how about the fact that Ike actually kills things in 1 turn while not having ass accuracy? Or that I could slap a Skill Book on Ike and suddenly I'm able to ramp up his Def and HP with BEXP?

But hey, I can fix Boyd and Neph's problem too with Resolve. Not so great on Boyd, but with Neph? By the time they meet up in Part 3, Neph probably has around 24 speed, 36 after that and possibly 15 Lck equates to 87. That's practically Mia with a B support with Ike (now if only she had a good supporter). About 22 Skl is 33, equating to 16 crit, +5 from class and +50 from Wrath. Where did I put that Silver Greatlance again?

Sure, Shinon can't just be dropped in a group of enemies and expected to have a field of dead bodies littered about him, but at least he's not stealing that sort of offense from people who can do it better (such as Ike). Let's also not forget that that Shinon also has superior move and that Shinon will actually kill what he targets, thus helping us avoid an attack.

More fun that Oscar has with the ledges, I assure you.

*You then remember that there are enemies on the right side of the map that's a Route map, and Oscar regardless would still get there first to help out Titania*

[Anouleth]

Can Gatrie activate Resolve himself, or is he too durable?

[Naglfar]

But Haar/Ti/Ike are already above Gatrie so thats moot, and it seems agreed on already that he raise above the hawks. Int and I's problem with Gatrie moving to upper mid is that it puts him in the same league as Oscar/Boyd who have trouble with thier offence/defence capabilities.

I mean, one of the many reasons why Haar is given celerity is to rescue drop better. If thats true, who better to rescue drop than Gatrie? Ike/Mia will die by themselves (Yes, even Ike isn't that durable), and Shinon has no enemy phase. I'd liek to see Boyd/Nephenee do as much as Gatrie can through doing this.

Playing Fire Emblem quickly often relies on your more mobile units ferrying the less mobile ones. Really, just spend a couple of Haar's turns dropping Gatrie off somewhere that needs to be cleaned out. Haar has access to Saviour and he's going there anyway, so what's the problem? Gatrie's just making it easier. Since we're debating a game that lets units carry each other without penalties, it seems a bit silly to me to mash the 6 move button so hard. Oh, and did we forget Reyson exists? He can Vigor Gatrie. Or Haar who just picked up Gatrie. Failing that, there's the Celerity everyone keeps mentioning, which he can at least have until 3-5 as long as we can stop fapping to 11 move Haar for five minutes. Gatrie's part of a team that gives you competent units with great utilities and crazy resources. Are we seriously going to sandbag him out of any and all outside help simply because he's bad without it?

More fun that Oscar has with the ledges, I assure you.

And 7 move. It'd be funny if it weren't such an evil chapter.

[grandjackal]

Can Gatrie activate Resolve himself, or is he too durable?

We're basically rolling out the vintage FE9 Taur by doing this. Except he's doubled less now.

In fact, speaking of Neph and Haar drop, how about these two support? Considering that she can basically become Mia with B Ike support under Resolve, even slight bits of Avoid make it all the better. The support will build fast, in part thanks to how Rescue builds supports faster. Neph even has a chapter with the guy in 2-E. Have him rescue her and fly down to the generals on the right for the Silver Greatlance, with the hammer he'll assuringly have the Silver Greatlance for Neph by turn 2, of which the chapter ends. Pity it's impossible for them to start the chapter next to eachother for an additional point of support.

Support builds quick, helps acc with the greatlances, helps boost the void more under Resolve, WrathxResolve potentially fixes her offense issue, Haar doesn't give a damn who he supports...Win/Win?

[Zkirsche]

And Gatrie has issues with move capabilities. I could argue the Silver Greatlance to Oscar, who for most of earlygame could counter, then kill and canto with this thing (37 might, consider that Titania early on could ORKO with basic steel which would equate to 36 might on her own. Despite not doubling, the fact he has Canto helps aliviate the problem. Only issue is it's balls accuracy, of which I'd prefer in the hands of high move and 11 more acc Oscar than Gatrie), or that despite not being as durable, Boyd can nearly do the same job as Gat while supporting Shinon to allow him kills he could scratch out since he is so barely borderline at times, and the fact that Boyd has actually helped in 3-P since he starts ahead of the group (I can safely say he will stay alongside Titania and Oscar and helping them out up until the boss's area) while Gatrie's lagging behind.

3-P is self-improvement so who cares about that.

And even with a Shinon support his durability is not stellar enough. Oscar isn't that durable himself either. And to give a low hit item to a unit who is only 2RKO'ing is just asking for trouble. (It's like, ~60 displayed, and when you're not planning to be in battle that much, every miss counts)(Not to mention, Haar has the same accuracy but flies so can use it more for like, wyverns or something. Heck, if we're speedrunning 2-E, we might not even get the silver greatlance.

But the mobility is a fairly large problem, yes.

On top of this I could argue that Boyd and Oscar could be tossed eventually after serving a purpose they have, while Gatrie needs to essentially be trained up for all his future benefits. Early on, Oscar and Boyd, despite having no future, still have a slight purpose they can serve, Gatrie does not. There lies my problem with Gatrie.

Yes Gatrie does, its called rescue dropping. Its called one of the best offence + defence combos in the team from the word go.

Gatrie has an entire 3 Def on Ike, are you serious? Let's not stop there though, how about the fact that Ike actually kills things in 1 turn while not having ass accuracy? Or that I could slap a Skill Book on Ike and suddenly I'm able to ramp up his Def and HP with BEXP?

Kk fine now Mia is less durable and Ike is STILL above Gatrie.

Oh and Gatrie doesn't have ass accuracy.

But hey, I can fix Boyd and Neph's problem too with Resolve. Not so great on Boyd, but with Neph? By the time they meet up in Part 3, Neph probably has around 24 speed, 36 after that and possibly 15 Lck equates to 87. That's practically Mia with a B support with Ike (now if only she had a good supporter). About 22 Skl is 33, equating to 16 crit, +5 from class and +50 from Wrath. Where did I put that Silver Greatlance again?

Kk, now Neph gets oneshotted because you just threw her into 30% HP. Oh and Mordy drops (although he could stand to rise already, I guess). Oh and apparently the silvergreatlance is best on Oscar.

Sure, Shinon can't just be dropped in a group of enemies and expected to have a field of dead bodies littered about him, but at least he's not stealing that sort of offense from people who can do it better (such as Ike). Let's also not forget that that Shinon also has superior move and that Shinon will actually kill what he targets, thus helping us avoid an attack.

Gatrie will too if you use him right and give him a crown.

*You then remember that there are enemies on the right side of the map that's a Route map, and Oscar regardless would still get there first to help out Titania*

The majority of the enemies are to teh north. Aka, getting there the fastest takes priority and is more important.

[grandjackal]

3-P is self-improvement so who cares about that.

Gatrie cares, because he's the one that needs self-improvement.

Also, self-improvement for who? Boyd, Oscar and Titania? Unless we're sitting back and letting the few enemies not in the laguz path of destruction come to us (which is losing EXP overall if anything), I would like to know how this chapter qualifies as a self-improvement chapter.

And even with a Shinon support his durability is not stellar enough.

Dying's an issue in part 3? News to me. At worst he loses a couple player phases here and there to choke down a healing item, which he makes up for with his move allowing him more reach, allowing him more opportunities in actually having a player phase.

Oscar isn't that durable himself either.

Canto's a wonderful thing. That, and being able to 2RKO helps him avoid counters more often than normal.

And to give a low hit item to a unit who is only 2RKO'ing is just asking for trouble. (It's like, ~60 displayed, and when you're not planning to be in battle that much, every miss counts)

You are arguing for Gatrie, who basically starts with 11 less base accuracy. Consider the following. If Oscar can 2RKO with the Silver Greatlance, then Gatrie's larger strength lead is irrelevent. While it's true that Gatrie would only need Steel, it would be the same acc along with the fact that Oscar leaves Gatrie in the dust with his move. Despite the weapon, I am still getting the same performance+3 move, Earth support and Canto.

(Not to mention, Haar has the same accuracy but flies so can use it more for like, wyverns or something. Heck, if we're speedrunning 2-E, we might not even get the silver greatlance.

Haar on the far right side can reach down to the right side of the map turn 1, the Silver Greatlance General will attack him. Takes 2 turns to beat the chapter, Haar can get it on the first turn's enemy phase. Still enough time to get it even with Neph in tow for the support building if I'm really gonna go that far.

As for Haar wanting hte silver greatlance...What the hell would he ever need it for? If we're doing Wing+Crown, he's basically Titania with Wings and Stun. If I really need to, I'll just toss him a forge.

Yes Gatrie does, its called rescue dropping. Its called one of the best offence + defence combos in the team from the word go.

From the word go he's beat by Ike/Titania and Haar himself. Haar can only bring one guy. Quick, argue why it should be Gatrie over Ike every time. Even in missions where it doesn't require Haar flies Ike to an arrival space, why would I not bring Ike every time due to the offense he has that Gatrie lacks?

Kk fine now Mia is less durable and Ike is STILL above Gatrie.

SPEAKING of friends for Oscar...

Oh and Gatrie doesn't have ass accuracy.

Gatrie's gonna need a Steel Greatlance himself for 3-3, and he'd most likely still have worse acc than Oscar with Silver Greatlance. You could say forge for Gatrie, but why waste the money when you don't have to?

It's a similar problem he's got early on before the arrival of the greatlance, since Gatrie needs a greatlance to pull anything off. Even 3-1 with a greatlance, enemies can put Gatrie into 69 displayed before terrain such as the northwest schrubs. Guys with move will be going around the right side to take care of enemies which leaves Gatrie with the southern generals of which he still 3RKOs.

Kk, now Neph gets oneshotted because you just threw her into 30% HP.

Not like she needs to be in Resolve to do anything, it just helps with Wrath and gives her Mia with B Ike-like avoid. Helps more with Haar support I suppose.

Oh and Mordy drops (although he could stand to rise already, I guess).

Ohh wahh.

Oh and apparently the silvergreatlance is best on Oscar.

Oscar will become obsolete eventually anyways, might as well dump him now. Point is that I could stillg et more out of Oscar than Gatrie anytime soon, even if I were chosing between one or the other.

Gatrie will too if you use him right and give him a crown.

Of which in that time, Shinon's been doing more than Gatrie just standing around. Nevermind that I could give that crown to anyone else (like to a unit that has a future that doesn't suck), and Shinon would still be good.

The majority of the enemies are to teh north. Aka, getting there the fastest takes priority and is more important.

Irrelevent, it's a Route map, all must die. Gatrie being slow to reach either direction is his problem and not Oscar's.

[alfredo094]

You really should be reading my play log if you don't know the reasons why.

Or maybe do a(n) LTC. Or both.

I didn't answer to anything else because it has been either covered or I don't fell like it or I just gave the point.

[Colonel M]

Playing Fire Emblem quickly often relies on your more mobile units ferrying the less mobile ones. Really, just spend a couple of Haar's turns dropping Gatrie off somewhere that needs to be cleaned out. Haar has access to Saviour and he's going there anyway, so what's the problem? Gatrie's just making it easier. Since we're debating a game that lets units carry each other without penalties, it seems a bit silly to me to mash the 6 move button so hard. Oh, and did we forget Reyson exists? He can Vigor Gatrie. Or Haar who just picked up Gatrie. Failing that, there's the Celerity everyone keeps mentioning, which he can at least have until 3-5 as long as we can stop fapping to 11 move Haar for five minutes. Gatrie's part of a team that gives you competent units with great utilities and crazy resources. Are we seriously going to sandbag him out of any and all outside help simply because he's bad without it?

I am going to stress this. One. More. Time. I do not want to repeat myself after I say this, so I'm going to make this count.

Haar needs Celerity in the following chapters:

- 3-2

- 3-3

- 3-5

- Highly recommended for 3-8

- Needed on a Hawk in 3-11

Let's make that clear as a bell. If you really need to know the reasons, once again, there is a savestate in my playlog topic that holds 3-2 in it as well. I'll relay your reasons to "get the picture" without turning myself blue in the face.

3-2 it is necessary for the 3 Turn clear by dropping Mia or Ike to KO the boss on Turn 3 Player Phase.

3-3 it is necessary to avoid the Thunder Sage, helps with convenience with your other 7 Mov units, and allows Haar to drop Gatrie off safely on Turn 2. It also helps him reach the tent then Canto toward the supplies.

3-5 it is necessary for the 2 Turn Clear. Haar needs to KO the Paladin blocking Lombroso and then chip at Lombroso or finish him off.

3-8 gives a -2 Mov penalty to all mounted units. With Celerity your first two turns involve:

- Killing the Swordmaster, positioning himself to have the Swordmaster suicide by the lava tile on the Player Phase

- Kill the Elwind Sage, then re-Canto so that Reyson Vigors him, Ulki, and Janaff.

- Kill the Elfire Sage, then is capable to Canto back and land on one of the lava tiles. Then position himself so that Janaff and Ulki surround him after chipping the enemies near their are and Cantoing back, then the rest of the enemies suicide onto Ulki and Janaff to help build Strike. Then it is possible to position him so that he creates a line with Mia and Ike that prevents the enemies to attack Reyson after Reyson Vigors more units.

In 3-11 it helps with not burning Laguz Stones (though granted I actually ran out of stones). Celerity Hawk can be positioned so that he gets attacked by the Hand Axe Paladin, thus boosting their gauge to max after Olivi Grass and Turn 2, KO the Fire Sage so that the Smite Hawk, after Shoved, can land 2 spaces behind the Celerity Hawk. The celerity Hawk can reach the Wind Sage that holds the Barrier Seal then Canto 1 L to receive Ike on Turn 3. Turn 3 the Hawk drops Ike off, Cantos back, then gets Vigored by Leanne so that he can use Grass to replenish his gauge. On Turn 4 the Hawk picks Ike back up, then gets Vigored so that the Ceerity Hawk can drop Ike off safely while protecting Haar from the ArcThunder Sage. Finally on Turn 5 the Celerity Hawk either attacks the boss, assuming you didn't give him Tear yet and gave him Nullify instead, or KOes an enemy so that Mia + Haar KOes the boss.

That leaves Gatrie with possibly taking Celerity in 3-4, 3-7, 3-10, and 3-E. I'd also argue Celerity on Haar useful on 3-10, but I'm getting enough bitching with 3-8 because "oh now I'm fapping". Now Gatrie saves turns without Celerity in 3-3, and in a theory he can help with the 5 Turn Clear in 3-10 without Celerity so long as he gets enough AS. The question is simply when the Rescue Drop is even... Necessary.

Seriously, I don't want to repeat this stuff again. It's as I said: we assumed the "dorito" system in the first place and used it against some characters because of the opportunity costs lost within the equation. No, I am not arguing the optimal deployment theorem, but if we're arguing optimal resources with this, Gatrie is not Doritos for Celerity in Part 3 sans for maybe half the remaining chapters.. By saying you're not giving Celerity to Haar just because it makes Gatrie "more useful", you're edging very close on smash_fanaticism when it comes down to throwing optimal resource distribution out the window, and IIRC we don't play theory games like "what if Titania doesn't get Speedwing because I gave it to Boyd instead", etc.

I won't challenge the Crown just yet, and possibly won't challenge much about Celerity in the shoddy chapters until I actually get a good chance to examine it.

Finally, I obviously exercised rescuing, but there is one minor issue with Haar Savior-ing in a couple of chapters: Titania's Pocket Mist support. This also helps get the KOes on Generals that she can miss without it (wasting 1 Hammer use > 2, I shouldve plowed Titania to 20/1 in 3-8). I also carried Gatrie in 3-P, so don't say that I payed a "favorite" card and intentionally sandbagged Gatrie in my run.

I apologize for being somewhat hostile on the subject, but 11 Mov Haar is by no means "fapping" when I can outline the advantages of it. Furthermore, even if at worst Gatrie taking Celerity instead of Haar cost you 1 turn per chapter, that's still 1 turn that Gatrie just cost you within the process when Shinon possibly cost you 0. I'm not arguing Shinon > Gatrie, but under the circumstance that Gatrie takes a resource that costs the player turn(s), it makes Shinon more favorable in the match-up.

[Florete]

3-2 it is necessary for the 3 Turn clear by dropping Mia or Ike to KO the boss on Turn 3 Player Phase.

3-5 it is necessary for the 2 Turn Clear. Haar needs to KO the Paladin blocking Lombroso and then chip at Lombroso or finish him off.

What's with all this "Get the minimum turn count or else" crap? This list has never assumed that in it's near-two years lifetime. Minimum turn count is not the same as efficiency.

[Colonel M]

What's with all this "Get the minimum turn count or else" crap? This list has never assumed that in it's near-two years lifetime. Minimum turn count is not the same as efficiency.

Then.I have 2 questions:

- How does "minimum turn count" not the same as "efficiency"?

- If it doesn't qualify... What does?

[alfredo094]

Efficiency = Do more in less effort and less time, or input < output (I think, switch it if it's wrong).

Thus, we could argue thousands of ways of playing "efficiently". It seems we have mostly dropped EXP and stuff like that to get better units, because effort equals not the same results or I don't know what. But there are still other ways, like using the most units and stuff like that.

LTC is not the only way to play.

[Soren37]

@alfredo: "<" is the mathematical symbol for "less than".

As for efficiency, I find that as long as you finish the chapter before you start taking BEXP penalties, then you should be fine. I'm not efficient most of the time, but I still find the whole "optimal deployment and LTC FTW!" annoying. Integrity was able to do a HM run with Laura. It may not have been the most efficient, but it doesn't sound like he took too many penalties.

[Anouleth]

@alfredo: "<" is the mathematical symbol for "less than".

As for efficiency, I find that as long as you finish the chapter before you start taking BEXP penalties, then you should be fine. I'm not efficient most of the time, but I still find the whole "optimal deployment and LTC FTW!" annoying. Integrity was able to do a HM run with Laura. It may not have been the most efficient, but it doesn't sound like he took too many penalties.

While in many cases, turn count guidelines are built into the game (whether through BEXP penalties or through ranks), I don't accept that they should be used for tier listing, mainly because they're often stupendously generous (hello FE6).

While I have no objections to assuming that low turn counts are a boon to the characters that make them possible, I don't know if we should assume that we're always using the best characters. FE10 presents an interesting issue in that you never have an especially large choice of characters to use before endgame and in many cases you have enough slots for everyone and their dog, plus the top tiers can cruise on their base stats for a long time and don't need much in the way of training, but I believe the same principle should be applied - this is not a 'who is most useful in the Tyrant's playthrough' tier list.

[grandjackal]

Well, one thing to mention is that with the seperate teams and all, very few actually have control on how low we keep the turncount. If we were then to consider how many other unit slots we have, how do we judge their merit outside of "they kill things fast"?

Even though, I feel Gatrie should indeed go down, I would agree that it is weird to only consider those who keep the turncount low to be the only means of measure since very few even have the capability to begin with. I'm with Colonel on not being quite sure of let's say a 3-7 Crown (though at that point I'd probably have been more than fed up with Gatrie, this coming form a guy who loves the FE6 armors) or leveling, but I suppose if it adds one more killer to the future I don't see why not. After all, if I'm gonna fill the rest of my non-turncount-saving unit slots to people, might as well be those who will compensate by kicking ass in the future.

Though I suppose I would still have a problem, considering even Gatrie's future is shaky if only due to his shit tier 2 speed cap and tier 3 leveling speed before part 4.

[alfredo094]

@alfredo: "<" is the mathematical symbol for "less than".

Aw c'mon, I'm good at math. That' pretty basic >_>, I suck at Physics though, so I'm not sure if I remember correctly what input and output was. I think input would be your effort, wouldn't it?

[Anouleth]

Well, one thing to mention is that with the seperate teams and all, very few actually have control on how low we keep the turncount. If we were then to consider how many other unit slots we have, how do we judge their merit outside of "they kill things fast"?

Even though, I feel Gatrie should indeed go down, I would agree that it is weird to only consider those who keep the turncount low to be the only means of measure since very few even have the capability to begin with. I'm with Colonel on not being quite sure of let's say a 3-7 Crown (though at that point I'd probably have been more than fed up with Gatrie, this coming form a guy who loves the FE6 armors) or leveling, but I suppose if it adds one more killer to the future I don't see why not. After all, if I'm gonna fill the rest of my non-turncount-saving unit slots to people, might as well be those who will compensate by kicking ass in the future.

Though I suppose I would still have a problem, considering even Gatrie's future is shaky if only due to his shit tier 2 speed cap and tier 3 leveling speed before part 4.

Who else exactly is taking the 3-7 Crown? Titania is already promoted or close enough that she doesn't need it, Nephenee and Mia probably want to work on their strength and have great speed caps anyway, Shinon has his own problems that have nothing to do with poor stats, and apparently Haar has already taken a Crown. So unless we want to dredge up Soren or Boyd, I don't see his competition.

[grandjackal]

Howzabout Oscar? I'd find it an easier to argue 5 levels on him than Gatrie. Could even BEXP him a bit if I want more Str. Maybe I could make it even easier to get him levels faster by slapping a Robe on him and getting BEXP levels out of him if I wanted to speed up that process (though by 3-7, I doubt I'd have to). 26 speed is better than 25 since it leaves no question along with being closer to the speed required for part 4. Even if ORKOing is shaky, I still got canto so even if Oscar doesn't ORKO, he'll just kill them the coming player phase and move forward as if there was no obstacle in his path.

And I won't require Celerity just to function.

[Anouleth]

I forgot Oscar. He's pretty forgettable <_<

[Colonel M]

If you're wanting Haar to naturally cap his Spd stat before Tier 3... There is a bit of merit of Gatrie getting it. It's just not "as clear cut" per se. Gatrie still needs to get 22 Spd (or 23) to swipe the Crown. Those are probably the only units I'd seriously consider for the Crown. There is merit for Gatrie getting it; the question is simple, does he show positives to take it? I'm thinking, in theory, he can. Oscar is a weird situation, so I'm not really going to attempt to argue a Crown. It's more or less me saying "ehh" on Celerity Gatrie (which was part of the reason he was over Hawks) and still a high candidate for the crown so long as he contributes. I already took back my statement of Upper Mid Gatrie.

Also alfredo, your analysis does not take into account that there is, theoretically, astrategy that is more efficient until you reach the point of maximum efficiency. LTC has always been the system of the efficient play style as going for max BEXP is, literally, a joke within itself like the FE6 ranks. That's why I'm asking how absolute minimum turn counts =/= efficient when, technically, it is going throughout the most efficient process of the game.

All I ask is simple: recognition that such strategies exist, and they have a high probable chance of success. There's also something else to take into account. If we aren't taking absolute minimum turn count nor max BEXP into account, what is taken into account?. This answer isn't as clear cut as you think either. I hate dragging "what a tier list does" into the equation, but obviously the goal is the middle road between max BEXP and minimal turn counts. For example, now you have to describe what we do for certain chapters that are done with a snap of two fingers like 2-E (3-4 turns), 3-2 (3 Turns as the safest benchmark), 4-5 (2 Turn), 4-E in general (aside from 4-E-1 and 4-E-5 these are usually done within a turn for each Endgame mission).

Edited September 6, 2010 by Tyranel M

[grandjackal]

Well then, let's simplify it.

Haar stays unpromoted to max out his speed.

Titania goes naturally as she is best off to do.

We now got 2 crowns. Both Gatrie and Oscar are happy, and Haar can take a later crown, since it's not like he's gonna cap it immediately.

So, now that we got two crowns, we're a bit more flexible with who we hand them out to. However, this also gives Soren a bit of wiggle room. He caps a lot of stats early, and can be BEXPd up for a later crown, and 25 AS is just dandy for part 3. While his speed I would venture would be shaky part 4, he's at least got Staffs to help him level more, and his magical offense could be quite a boon in some situations, along with Flare being a nice icing on the cake. However, he's probably got a worse situation than Gatrie because Mage move isn't fantastic either on top of Soren having crappy durability (unless we argue a Pocket Soren for Oscar the same way we argue for Pocket Mist on Titania?).

[eclipse]

Is there really such a huge difference in clearing a chapter in 3 turns versus clearing it in 4 turns? I'd take the 4 turn clear, if it meant I can gain more CEXP for my units (so I can save my BEXP for doing stupid stuff like making Soren lucky).

[alfredo094]

Also alfredo, your analysis does not take into account that there is, theoretically, a strategy that is more efficient until you reach the point of maximum efficiency. LTC has always been the system of the efficient play style as going for max BEXP is, literally, a joke within itself like the FE6 ranks. That's why I'm asking how absolute minimum turn counts =/= efficient when, technically, it is going throughout the most efficient process of the game.

LTC may be = efficieny, but efficieny, by definition. =/= LTC.

All I ask is simple: recognition that such strategies exist, and they have a high probable chance of success. There's also something else to take into account. If we aren't taking absolute minimum turn count nor max BEXP into account, what is taken into account?. This answer isn't as clear cut as you think either. I hate dragging "what a tier list does" into the equation, but obviously the goal is the middle road between max BEXP and minimal turn counts. For example, now you have to describe what we do for certain chapters that are done with a snap of two fingers like 2-E (3-4 turns), 3-2 (3 Turns as the safest benchmark), 4-5 (2 Turn), 4-E in general (aside from 4-E-1 and 4-E-5 these are usually done within a turn for each Endgame mission).

Ask the creator. I doubt that sacrificing one turn for the sake of using another unit a bit more is not understandable. The tier list doesn't say "Low Turn Count Tier List", and thus isn't neccesarily one.

And with those certain chapters, I dunno what's the problem with doing them quick. I'm not saying to ignore turn counts completely, I'm just saying that we can be flexible with them.

[Rewjeo]

It doesn't say Low Turn Count Tier List, sure, but, uh, that's just because Efficient or Efficiency is shorter and, as far as FE tiering goes, synonymous.

[Colonel M]

Is there really such a huge difference in clearing a chapter in 3 turns versus clearing it in 4 turns? I'd take the 4 turn clear, if it meant I can gain more CEXP for my units (so I can save my BEXP for doing stupid stuff like making Soren lucky).

Except now you enter a slippery slope. For example, what now stops me from taking 5 turns instead of 3? 6? Etc, etc. I'm just saying: careful how you dig this hole. In most instances, however, taking the extra turn doesn't add much of a benefit turn-count wise.

LTC may be = efficieny, but efficieny, by definition. =/= LTC.

I hate dragging the definition of efficiency, but "time" is part of the definition with it. 2nd definition given within Google search's Define: Efficiency

skillfulness in avoiding wasted time and effort

...Rrgh, someone stop me from this. Maybe I just have this dumb fear of crawling to smash_fanatic-turnstyle...

Edited September 6, 2010 by Tyranel M