OMG it's a tier list

[Shadow Mir]

Hello staves.

Which he needs to take a crown to even get.

[Junkhead]

But I think Titania's performance is still better.

Which he needs to take a crown to even get.

Okay.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Janaff

[Shadow Mir]

(joke recommendation) Numida and Valtome for Phail tier plz.

(serious) Could Marcia stand to go above Aran?

[Ether]

But I think Titania's performance is still better.

Okay.

The original premise was that Titania's doubling was shaky, and that Mia's high kill rates, being about 70% IIRC, were more reliable than Titania's chances of keeping her speed constant early on since she has a difficult time gaining levels in her first few maps due to low EXP gain and fairly average performance. She got her speedwing in 3-2, but still needed another Spd proc to be reliable, which was far from assured. Earth support gave Mia superior durability overall, since her higher natural avo outweighed Titania's slight concrete durability win when both had Earth supports. By the time Titania was able to secure doubling, Mia was gaining the ability to naturally ORKO foes, and was nearing promotion herself, after which she was pretty much the most overall reliable combat unit on the team for the rest of the game(Comparable to Nailah in part 4, except with 2-range options, albiet not the best ones outside of the TempestBlade)

basically, Mia was RNG proof, as her Proc rates were what made her so good at killing, while Titania was completely dependant on Spd procs, else her combat was merely 2HKO chips, at which point she would undoubtably fall behind. Now that Titania gets like, 6 stat boosters so she can BEXP speed because nothing matters except having a mount, so anyone with a mount gets everything stuffed into them, her doubling likely isn't shaky anymore.

[Colonel M]

To be honest, if this heavier emphasis on turncount is what we are going with, than I can't really disagree with the change myself. When it was argued originally, performance overall was considered more important than purely effect towards turncount. Since that no longer seems to be the case, and it was heavily argued even then, I will have to concede Titania > Mia.

I would try to argue it again, but it's a losing battle and I can't stand this new mentality, so I won't. This'll likely be the last post you see from me here, as such. Then again, I probably wasn't who you meant to answer that anyway.

Performance is still relative to staying on top of the Tier List. Turncounts just have a slightly bigger emphasis duly with the situations being more "explored" on what can happen in such situations. It's a balance of both, really.

Also for Red Fox WRT Titania:

- Helps ferry people north in 3-P

- 3-3, with Pass and Hammer, she can head towards one of the supplies almost effortlessly.

- 3-5 has the Rescue Chain

- 3-8 with the Hammer helps against the slew of Generals on the map.

- 3-10 with going North

Then she has her niches in Part 4. Expanding further:

- She's easy to set up Vigors thanks to Canto

- Hammertime helps nuke the vast amount of Generals on the map

- Getting her Spd up-to-par is pretty easy with ramming her towards her caps in other areas.

- Forged Hand Axes are fucking psycho.

- Still a decent candidate for Endgame since she has Hammer + Canto access in 4-E-1 and her Spd cap doesn't drag until 4-E-5, which she can at least accommodate with Brave Axe.

(serious) Could Marcia stand to go above Aran?

...I don't see why not. Aran is really trash in Hard Mode if he doesn't get his Experience feed, and he doesn't bring that much specialty to the Dawn Brigade.

The original premise was that Titania's doubling was shaky

This is a simple fix. Get the Speedwings on her, cap as many stats as feasibly possible with Secret Book, Goddess Icon, etc, then get ramming her with BEXP.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Colonel M

[Junkhead]

Ether: You should know I was reffering both (T) versions. I do see Mia being a better combatant before Titania gets the Speedwings as their (N) versions.

And if it helps, I agree with Richter & Colonel when regarding Aran being worse than Marcia.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Janaff

[RNG Princess]

I think Gatrie should have an NT ^^'

[dondon151]

Ether: You should know I was reffering both (T) versions. I do see Mia being a better combatant before Titania gets the Speedwings as their (N) versions.

It's just 2 maps, though, where Mia is doubling most enemies and Titania isn't. Mia also loses in many parameters to Titania in those maps - she has no Ike support and consequently shaky durability, Titania has more movement and atk, access to a Short Axe and a Hand Axe (Mia doesn't get a ranged sword), and Mia has no access to forged Steel Swords.

basically, Mia was RNG proof, as her Proc rates were what made her so good at killing,

Isn't this the exact antithesis of RNG proof?

[Ether]

It's just 2 maps, though, where Mia is doubling most enemies and Titania isn't. Mia also loses in many parameters to Titania in those maps - she has no Ike support and consequently shaky durability, Titania has more movement and atk, access to a Short Axe and a Hand Axe (Mia doesn't get a ranged sword), and Mia has no access to forged Steel Swords.

Isn't this the exact antithesis of RNG proof?

Allow me to rephrase that. She is RNG proof in the sense that failing to gain any particular stat won't really effect her in any noticeable way. Adept and crit make up most of her offensive potential, and she has that at base. Whereas Titania needs to keep her speed up. If she fails to do so, she is effectively spayed and neutered. 23 AS is shaky even in 3-P. It is fine in 3-2 due to swarms of Paladins, but she needs 24 AS to remain reliable, and with pitiful exp gain in 3-P and 3-1 due to not doubling much with 21 AS and high base level, she may not have it in time, considering after 2 levels, she has about the same chance of having 24 AS as Mia killing one random enemy. The difference is that if Mia misses it once, it's no big deal. If Titania misses it, she now is just another unit who 2RKOs. If she fails to have that 24 AS, the chances of her getting the 25 AS required for more longterm in time and practically null and void.

But again, when the change was made, Titania wasn't assumed to get a speedwing and 4 other statboosters to help her BEXP more Speed, and absolute low turns weren't a be-all, end-all. In such an environment, she is indeed better without question.

[Florete]

But again, when the change was made, Titania wasn't assumed to get a speedwing and 4 other statboosters to help her BEXP more Speed, and absolute low turns weren't a be-all, end-all. In such an environment, she is indeed better without question.

Calm down, buddy, the change hasn't been made yet. I still know the arguments for both sides and I still see the case for both of them. It's really a question of values now; are we now concerned enough with low turn counts that this holds more water, or do we still hold our previous ideas of performance and reliability over utility? Thing is, Haar > Ike is a definite example of the former, and no one was really opposed to that, but ideas are still split. It gets harder and harder as we get deeper into things to know exactly how we want to do this.

[Ether]

I was referring to the original change of Mia > Titania, not implying a change had already been made again. Anyway, if Int or Narga or whoever want to argue it again, they can. As I said, my stint in this tiering community is dead and gone. It's left me behind in it's advance, and I have no interest in following it where it's planning to go from now. Soul wanted someone who argued for Mia originally to speak up, and I did.

I didn't want to start arguing again, but it seems that wasn't to come to pass.

[dondon151]

Allow me to rephrase that. She is RNG proof in the sense that failing to gain any particular stat won't really effect her in any noticeable way. Adept and crit make up most of her offensive potential, and she has that at base.

Mia needs a Steel Sword forge, and she doesn't get that until 3-2.

Whereas Titania needs to keep her speed up. If she fails to do so, she is effectively spayed and neutered. 23 AS is shaky even in 3-P.

That's because 3-P enemies are at a higher level than 3-1 enemies and are roughly equal, for the most part, to 3-3 enemies. In the particular case of Titania (T), she doubles every enemy on 3-1 except for a level 8 warrior, an SM, and Rommit. Hand Axe misses ORKO on halbs and generals; Short Axe or Steel Axe gets halbs.

It is fine in 3-2 due to swarms of Paladins, but she needs 24 AS to remain reliable, and with pitiful exp gain in 3-P and 3-1 due to not doubling much with 21 AS and high base level, she may not have it in time, considering after 2 levels, she has about the same chance of having 24 AS as Mia killing one random enemy. The difference is that if Mia misses it once, it's no big deal. If Titania misses it, she now is just another unit who 2RKOs. If she fails to have that 24 AS, the chances of her getting the 25 AS required for more longterm in time and practically null and void.

I don't see how that's "no big deal" when the implication is that the player can't count on Mia to reliably do anything. You have to hope that she doesn't get that 30% when she doesn't KO an enemy (or even worse if her bio is bad), and then commit another unit to pick it off. Which is fine, I guess, if Mia isn't doing anything important, like taking the front offensive position.

[Anouleth]

WRT Pelleas:

Nobody cares about staves. Pelleas needs to be traded a Crown and a staff in 4-2, and he's so far behind all he can do is Physic which isn't that great when Tibarn and the Hawks are basically indestructible and maybe even out of his range and we have Elincia anyway. I didn't need to heal once in the whole of 4-2. In 4-5, we have Bastian and Elincia.

WRT Marcia v Aran:

Marcia needs a ton of EXP herself to be useful outside of CRK chapters. The best way to look at them is somewhat mediocre growth units, only Marcia is automatically useful in her CRK chapters even if we don't use her seriously in the long term, while Aran has basically nothing in that department.

To be honest, if this heavier emphasis on turncount is what we are going with, than I can't really disagree with the change myself. When it was argued originally, performance overall was considered more important than purely effect towards turncount. Since that no longer seems to be the case, and it was heavily argued even then, I will have to concede Titania > Mia.

I would try to argue it again, but it's a losing battle and I can't stand this new mentality, so I won't. This'll likely be the last post you see from me here, as such. Then again, I probably wasn't who you meant to answer that anyway.

Saving turns is the same thing as 'overall performance'. The purpose of offense, of durability, of mobility, is so that we take fewer turns. If Titania saves us more turns than Mia, that means that her mobility is a more important advantage than Mia's better offense (which isn't even that much better, since against enemies they both double, Titania is better).

[Interceptor]

The strict turn count discussion here should probably be shifted over to dondon's FE10 tier list, where it'd be more relevant. As handy as it might be to say that "X saves Y turns" and call it a day, this is an efficiency list, and as such, turn counts are just a piece of the pie.

[-Cynthia-]

Pelleas can chip in 4-2 which can be helpful in clearing out some of the reinforcements. Then again, I use Astrid for minor chip in 3-9 as well, so eh.

Why is Tormod an entire tier below Muarim? Tormod is probably better in 1-7, similar Mov due to Celerity and 1-2 range while Muarim has transform issues (he can spend PP smoking grass, but that costs a PP and we have limited amounts of Olivi Grass in Part 1 anyway). In 1-8 Tormod doesn't have to spend turns tranforming, which makes it easier for him to kill the Dracoknights.

Muarim is probably better for 1-E, though both are outclassed by Nailah and the BK, so their relative usefulness is eh. They return, and Muarim is better, but still not that good. Many 4-4 enemies double him (a lot with crit chance) and mages completely destroy him. He's also locked to 1 range when a lot of the enemies have 1-2 range weapons. Both Tormod and Muarim are poor choices for 4-E.

I would suggest Muarim down. For example, does Muarim really save more turns (and make getting BEXP/items/general completion easier) in half of 1-7, 1-8 and 1-E than Geoffrey does in 2-3 and 3-9? I doubt it, and Muarim's Part 4 doesn't seem better enough to make a difference.

[dondon151]

Why is Tormod an entire tier below Muarim? Tormod is probably better in 1-7, similar Mov due to Celerity and 1-2 range while Muarim has transform issues (he can spend PP smoking grass, but that costs a PP and we have limited amounts of Olivi Grass in Part 1 anyway).

Part 1 Olivi Grass is in no short supply. Muarim also has a better movement type for going up ledges in 1-7. He has the distinction of being the only unit available that ORKOs the 1-7 boss.

In 1-8 Tormod doesn't have to spend turns tranforming, which makes it easier for him to kill the Dracoknights.

Regardless, you kind of need Muarim to clear the map efficiently, because he cleanly ORKOs bandits while Tormod probably falls short (that or he doesn't double some of them). He probably has a bit less of a role in it, but still.

Muarim is probably better for 1-E, though both are outclassed by Nailah and the BK, so their relative usefulness is eh.

I'm pretty sure Muarim can actually do something in 1-E, while Tormod can't do anything but chill out on the bottom floor.

They return, and Muarim is better, but still not that good. Many 4-4 enemies double him (a lot with crit chance) and mages completely destroy him.

You can still use him, though. He does large amount of damage on a single hit, doesn't take a whole lot of damage per attack, and doubles enemies if assigned Resolve. Compared to Tormod, who literally can't do anything except use Meteor on doors, and even then those are 2HKOs.

Anyway, I agree with there not being a tier gap between Tormod and Muarim, but Muarim is still clearly better.

[Florete]

Everyone remembers we don't have Olivi Grass in 1-7, right? It probably doesn't matter, just thought I'd mention since it looks like there may be some misunderstandings.

Anyway, I do agree with Muarim and Tormod not being a full tier apart. Like what dondon said.

[Interceptor]

Many 4-4 enemies double him (a lot with crit chance) and mages completely destroy him.

Imma let you finish, but I'd just like to say that Marth is the greatest Fire Emblem tactician of all time, because he doesn't worry about trifling things such as keeping alive the endless parade of nobodies in his army.

I only care about Muarim dying in 4-4 to the extent that it allows some enemy to sneak past the front line and take a shot at Mist, or that I lose a pair of Wrath/Resolve scrolls forever. He is not worth keeping alive past Part 1, so if I can leverage his humble existence into something meaningful by crit-blicking a couple of bothersome enemies, I will do so gladly.

Compared to Tormod, who literally can't do anything except use Meteor on doors, and even then those are 2HKOs.

You might want to look up what the word actually means. There are a lot of cobwebs in my memory of 4-4 at this point, but Tormod is certainly capable of weakening enemies (made easier at points by handy Ledge Accuracy) and shoving, for example.

Everyone remembers we don't have Olivi Grass in 1-7, right? It probably doesn't matter, just thought I'd mention since it looks like there may be some misunderstandings.

I guess it's fortunate for Muarim that his contribution in the chapter is just long enough that the lack of grass doesn't usually enter into it.

[dondon151]

You might want to look up what the word actually means.

Does no one understand hyperbole anymore? I'm fairly sure my point was pretty clear, and that there was nothing to be gained from pointing this out aside from maybe a little bit of self-esteem.

[Interceptor]

Does no one understand hyperbole anymore?

Hyperbole is well-understood the world over, but a hundred years of practice would not improve yours. Hyperbole is about the exaggeration, by definition it is not meant to be taken literally. And I'd bet a shiny nickel against a stale cookie that you weren't intending to be ironic.

[-Cynthia-]

Imma let you finish, but I'd just like to say that Marth is the greatest Fire Emblem tactician of all time, because he doesn't worry about trifling things such as keeping alive the endless parade of nobodies in his army.

I only care about Muarim dying in 4-4 to the extent that it allows some enemy to sneak past the front line and take a shot at Mist, or that I lose a pair of

Point is, this is a relatively minimal contribution. I wouldn't argue that Tormod>Muarim, but I'm still not seeing how his contributions outweigh say, Geoffrey's. Though that might be more of an issue of Geoffrey being in the wrong tier, somehow Kieran/Marcia/Calill are all in the tier above him. I know he's useless when he comes back, but he's probably your best unit for 2 chapters of the game.

[Interceptor]

People like Geoff are notoriously hard to tier, since he only has two chapters where he even matters to begin with. I'd avoid comparing him the LEA, who have a greater portion of the game where they can do useful things, and instead tier him relative to people like Giffca, Skrimir, Manith, w/e.

[Colonel M]

Still secretly shipping Titania > Mia. It's for the best.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Colonel M

[Florete]

Yeah, I'm not too sure about Geoffrey, either. He's good and all, but he's not so much better than the rest of the team that you really rely on him, and the others are going to be more worth an experience investment if you plan to use any of them later. Kieran can do pretty much everything the same as Geoffrey in those maps anyway.

[Zkirsche]

Noone from the CRK is worth an experience investment other than maybe Marcia.